Milton Bradley Suspended; Cubs Win In Extra Innings
Milton Bradley's suspension for the rest of the season is obviously the topic everyone's talking about this morning. I'll have more to say below the fold, but first, let's at least enjoy the Cubs' 6-3 win over the Cardinals in 11 innings. If nothing else, it at least gave the Cubs the satisfaction of winning the final game of the season series between the two teams and delaying the Cardinals' clinching celebration for a couple more days.
It was the type of game you'd have liked to see far more of all season. Carlos Zambrano stayed within himself and threw six strong innings -- the ESPN crew said they thought Z should have been left in for one more inning, but after 102 pitches, that was probably enough. John Grabow threw well in relief, and Kevin Gregg got Albert Pujols to end the seventh.
Unfortunately, Gregg wasn't as good in the eighth, and the Cardinals tied the game. In the last of the ninth, the Cubs appeared to have lost when a double-play relay was thrown wide by Ryan Theriot with the bases loaded; the apparent winning run crossed the plate. However, the umpires conferred and correctly ruled that Matt Holliday had slid out of the baseline -- even going so far as to show Tony LaRussa the "skid mark". The run was nullified and the game continued.
Sean Marshall, Aaron Heilman and Esmailin Caridad held the Cardinals down until Jake Fox slammed a two-run homer off Mitchell Boggs; Carlos Marmol dispatched St. Louis easily in the last of the 11th and the Cubs had their 76th win of the season.
The Milton Bradley signing was doomed to fail from the moment it was made. First, Bradley was supposedly signed due to Lou's "we're not lefthanded enough" mantra. The switch-hitting Bradley has the following career numbers:
as right-handed hitter: .305/.385/.496 (.881 OPS) as left-handed hitter: .266/.365/.431 (.796 OPS)
So right from the beginning, the Cubs were getting someone who hit significantly worse, as a switch-hitter, from the side that they supposedly needed the most production. His 2009 splits were even more extreme:
as right-handed hitter: .324/.375/.431 (.806 OPS) as left-handed hitter: .234/.379/.385 (.734 OPS)
Note: both of the above stat boxes include an 0-for-3 that Bradley registered while batting right-handed vs. a RHP this year.
From that standpoint, the Cubs would have been far better off in 2009 with Raul Ibanez, Bobby Abreu, or yes, Adam Dunn in right field. Had they signed Abreu, it would have cost them far less money (Abreu's making only $5 million this year), which might have allowed a mid-season acquisition along the lines of a Holliday -- who could have filled in while Alfonso Soriano had the knee surgery that he should probably have had in May, or a Mark DeRosa, who could have filled in while Aramis Ramirez was out. Jim Hendry bid against himself for Bradley, and now finds himself with more than $20 million that he has to remove from the payroll. There is no doubt in my mind that Bradley won't be back -- even if Tom Ricketts has to give the go-ahead to eat Bradley's contract.
A big thank-you to Bruce Miles, who broke this story on Saturday unintentionally; he was simply trying to ask Bradley some questions about his knee injury and place in the lineup, questions that were mild and that any ballplayer should be able to quickly give rote answers to. Instead, Bradley threw the entire Cubs organization, players, media and fans under the bus, and Bruce's quote of Ryan Dempster, I think, is telling:
"To say that everybody's out to get you and the reporters are looking for you and always looking to stick a microphone in your face, well, if you notice that they're always for you, I think maybe you're always looking for them," Dempster said. "I've been here six years now and haven't had a problem with anybody here. D-Lee's been here, Z, a lot of guys for a long time. Yeah, you have some tough times, but the city's great. The fans are great. You've got to realize sometimes the consequences of your own actions."
Dempster's a smart guy and he's got it exactly right. There are several other player quotes in Carrie Muskat's cubs.com article that I believe are illuminating and further, put the lie to the often-posted-here statement that "everyone says Milton is a great teammate".
"That's tough for a guy like me to understand," Johnson said. "I came from Toronto and fell in love with the city [of Chicago] and fell in love with the organization. It's hard for me to believe you can come to this city and come to this organization and not enjoy your time here.
"I've heard guys like Eric Karros and Jason Kendall say if you're playing Major League Baseball over a long career, you have to play at least one year for the Chicago Cubs. It's a good thing, not a bad thing. I think all of us are really surprised that a player could come here and not have the time of his life."
Ryan Theriot:
Ryan Theriot's locker was next to Bradley's at Wrigley Field, and the shortstop tried to reach out to him.
"There were good days and bad days," Theriot said.
The Cubs first baseman called Bradley after he and manager Lou Piniella got into a shouting match at U.S. Cellular Field during an Interleague game.
"I think this is a different situation," Lee said. "I would let him reach out to me on this one. He got suspended for the season. There's not much I can do to help him on that one. If he needed to talk, I'd talk."
Lee's locker is on the other side of Bradley's. What was his take on him?
"He's a quiet guy," Lee said. "I think he likes his privacy. ... I think a lot of frustration built up in him and he didn't let it out the right way."
Aramis Ramirez:
"I don't know," Ramirez said when asked if Bradley could come back. "I don't think so."
Aramis Ramirez, a guy who doesn't say much and goes out and does his job, especially in a year where he's suffered a serious injury, saying he doesn't think Bradley could come back -- that's a damning indictment. The most descriptive line I think I heard from someone who's met Bradley is that he's a "strange dude". He also broke commitments; George Castle of true/slant.com writes:
No doubt Bradley talked a good game in persuading the Cubs to sign him last winter. He briefly seduced me during his introductory press conference in January the situation was different and Chicago would finally provide a baseball home for him. I even wrote he could rack up MVP numbers with that kind of attitude. Unfortunately, it was wishful thinking for Bradley, the Cubs and me. The real Bradley was soon exposed. See a previous blog about my experience with the outfielder, who stiffed me three times in four days after he had committed to doing an interview for my syndicated baseball radio show "Diamond Gems."
Gordon Wittenmyer of the Sun-Times makes it clear that the problems originated with Bradley:
Around the middle of the season, Bradley told a reporter he felt "isolated" in the clubhouse.
"I think for the most part that was his choice,"said Reed Johnson, whom Bradley once gave credit for getting in his face and helping straighten him out -- however temporary.
Said Piniella: "I just know that last year, I don't know how many times I heard from the media that we had the best clubhouse in the league. And things don't change that rapidly in a year."
Paul Sullivan of the Tribune quotes Hendry:
"The last few days became too much for me to tolerate," Hendry said. "I'm certainly not going to let our great fans become an excuse. I'm not going to tolerate not being able to answer questions from the media respectfully. Whether you feel like talking or not, it's part of all of our jobs.
"There's a right way to do it and a wrong way. I'm not going to allow disrespect to other people in that locker room and uniformed personnel, and I'm certainly not going to let a player, as was mentioned in the article today, (talk about) negativity of the organization."
Jim -- I think you did this to yourself. You didn't do your due diligence in trying to find out exactly what makes Milton Bradley tick. His blowups were well-documented, and there were, according to Sullivan's article, more troubles than we knew, even recently:
Bradley had been more erratic than usual this weekend, telling teammates he was having marital difficulties and sparring with hitting coach Von Joshua. Hendry spent the last three days contemplating the suspension.
The final beat-writer quote goes again to Bruce Miles, whose article contains many of the above quotes, and also this from Lou:
"I read some of his comments," Piniella said. "I can tell you this, that I've been here three years and I feel blessed that I've been able to spend three wonderful years here in Chicago. What a great city. Wrigley Field, what a fun place to play. And our fans are second to none."
Thank you, Lou. We may disagree with Lou's decisions and his apparent lack of interest this year, but he's got that right. Maybe the "disenchantment" that Bruce Miles says Lou had with Bradley all year had something to do with what appeared to be Lou sleepwalking through the 2009 season.
The final words, since this is my site, go to me. As noted above, this move was doomed to fail from January 6, the day it happened, for both on- and off-field reasons. It's almost certain that Milton Bradley has played his last game in a Cubs uniform, and for that I am glad. He's been a distraction and did not produce on the field. Why would you want a guy like that on your team? The situation is somewhat comparable, though more extreme, to the situation seven years ago involving Todd Hundley, also signed as a big-name free agent and who had the same production and complaining problems, although he simply complained TO the media, not ABOUT them, and didn't affect his teammates as negatively as Bradley has.
Jim Hendry was able to turn Hundley into two productive players who helped the Cubs win the NL Central in 2003. Perhaps he can perform the same thing with Bradley; it's been suggested by some that the Cubs might be able to send him to Toronto for Vernon Wells. Though Wells' contract is almost as onerous as Alfonso Soriano's, I'd do it. There's at least a chance that Wells will return to previous levels of production, and the alternative is probably simply to send Bradley home and pay him for doing nothing.
I never rooted against Milton Bradley when he was wearing a Cubs uniform. Had he produced, he would have helped the Cubs win games and that would have been a good thing. But starting from the injury in Milwaukee and the brief suspension that resulted from his tirade in his first Wrigley Field at-bat, Bradley was never a good fit for the Cubs, either emotionally or in the lineup. I'll be very happy when this chapter in Cubs history is just that -- history.
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Comments
Greetings from LA!
glad we won the first game of the post-Bradley era.
hopefully the first of many.
"Truth hurts. Maybe not as much as jumping on a bicycle with the seat missing, but it hurts." - Leslie Nielson
by LAcarl519 on Sep 21, 2009 8:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure I'll comment more in the Bradley-specific threads
As far as the game goes, it was 6-3, not 5-3.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 8:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
There was a quote..
…in one of those articles I read earlier this morning about when Hendry sat Milton down to tell him Milton’s season was over. Apparently he just sat there and listened, then said “Are we done?” What a disrespectful, unapologetic, jerk.
Nice recap, Al.
by WiscCubsFan on Sep 21, 2009 8:17 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What would you have him do?
Dude feels persecuted, fairly or not. Wouldn’t he see that as the logical next step? And wouldn’t his pride necessitate no more reaction than that?
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Sep 21, 2009 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he might explain his actions or, heaven forbid, apologize for his comments...
…but to shut down with a “Are we done?” is the action of a 12 year old.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Sep 21, 2009 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
It’s exactly what an unapologetic, disrespectful, jerk would do hehe. A mature person would realize, whether justified or not, that they had caused some major problems leading to this situation and at least attempt some kind of apology, at least to his team mates.
by WiscCubsFan on Sep 21, 2009 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't that the point?
He isn’t mature. Ho doesn’t know how to deal with situations in a reasonable manner. If he was mature we probably would not be having this discussion.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Sep 21, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tension
can produce a lot of different ripple effects on a team. The tension that built this season probably carried over onto the field and onto the coaching staff. When everyone walks around thinking what is going to happen next (with Bradley) and “I have to try to be nice to him so I don’t set him off”, it detracts from baseball. You’re probably right with Lou Al. This affected him and everyone else. Let’s not close the book on the what remains until we get 2010 out of the way. A better clubhouse could be what we were missing.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
by mrcubsfan on Sep 21, 2009 8:19 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
100% correct.
Clubhouse chemistry and leadership DO matter.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the fact that Hendry thought that Milton would bring vocal leadership is mind-boggling
That day-to-day spark that the Cubs needed never truly materialized.
If Hendry is going to move Bradley, let’s hope he can make another Hundley-esque trade.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Sep 21, 2009 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many wins
do you feel they were worth? And if we had been winning would those issues have even been discussed?
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Sep 21, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For the zillionth time...
… you cannot quantify that in terms of “number of wins”.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe there's a vocabulary problem here.
there are things which are hard to account for which probably have a big impact on the game. say, catcher defense. i don’t think anybody has a great accounting for that. it’s hard to account for because it’s hard to figure out when a base is stolen how much blame goes to the pitcher and how much to the catcher. but the impact is very tangible; a base gets stolen (or doesn’t). a run is created (or isn’t). catcher defense probably has a very real impact, but the impact is hard to count.
a pure intangible would be something that does not have a deep impact on the runs and wins, but which affects some other aspect of the game — how much the fans enjoy it, say.
if you’re saying that milton bradley’s behavior had an impact on the team, do you mean that the cubs would have won more games without him on the team, or with an equivalently talented, but good-tempered player on the team? because if you think that the cubs would have won,say, 78 games up to this point with this not-evil-twin MB, then that’s the measure.
if you think the cubs would have the same record with his not-evil twin on the team, then that’s a different criticism.
if you think the cubs would have more wins and you’re just not sure how many, then you’re saying his behavior’s impact is hard to measure. that i understand. but then if you’re not sure how much it impacts the team, it makes any possible solution a hard one to judge. if you don’t know if milton costs the team one win or ten wins, then you really can’t make a good decision about what to do with him.
so when you say you can’t quantify it in terms of numbers of wins, do you mean that the number of wins lost due to MB’s attitude are hard to count, or that MB’s attitude has no impact on the number of games the team wins?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Sep 21, 2009 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What you have said
is exactly the issue. I wasn’t asking for a saber number. If it doesn’t ad or subtract from wins, it is really only a side issue. And while the side issue may have significance, it’s not the reason to project the loss of a playoff berth for.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Sep 21, 2009 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Sep 21, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't understand why Hendry waited so long to discipline Bradley?
Everyone around him could see what was happening since June. Was Hendry that blind?? Why didn’t he admit his misktae (signing Bradley) sooner?
"Hey-Hey! Home Run! Attaboy Ronnie!" ~ Jack Brickhouse
by ronsanto10 on Sep 21, 2009 8:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Bradley really didn't do anything...
…warranting team-imposed discipline until the Bruce Miles interview.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That we know of
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough, but I'd be inclined to give Hendry the benefit of the doubt.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That may be true publicly...
…but you don’t know what happened behind the scenes.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who knows
i think he was just being optimistic
"That ball left a vapor trail" - Pat Hughes on Derrek Lee's 27th homer of 2009
"I hate to ound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
by JMG1984 on Sep 21, 2009 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It seems like Milton has had 6-7 second chances now...
For whatever reason, he can’t just go out there and play baseball. Obviously, he didn’t perform up to expectations this year – and he’s not the ideal clubhouse guy…
But it would be unfair to point a lone finger at Bradley for why the Cubs have been a .500 team this year. There’s plenty of blame to go around for their play on the field.
This team needs winners. Players who refuse to lose. Players who know how to play the game the right way. That’s why Bradley wasn’t a good fit in Chicago…
Get 'em on, Get 'em over, Get 'em in!
by DKT on Sep 21, 2009 8:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That last bit is unfair
Criticize Bradley for a lot of things, but he hustled all the time.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 8:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you
Bradley has hustled – and I was in his corner for the bulk of the season. I guess I meant “players who play the game the right way on and off the field.” I think Bradley has a lot of talent, but for whatever reason he just can’t go out there and let his talent do the talking…
Get 'em on, Get 'em over, Get 'em in!
by DKT on Sep 21, 2009 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually, no he didn't
I saw him fail to run out a grounder or pop fly during more than one game.
Good Guys Wear Blue
by Cubskingdom on Sep 21, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Were there any written accounts? I would think the media would have been all over that.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd still like to know where he was
when Fukudome was running seven miles after that inside-the-park homer, but that’s really the only question I’ve had about his hustle.
I don’t think his hustle was wondrous, but I don’t think he was below the average player, either.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Sep 21, 2009 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There was one time a few weeks ago
when he slipped coming out of the box and almost fell on his face. So of course it looked like he didn’t hustle to first, but the replays made it clear that he slipped….
Get 'em on, Get 'em over, Get 'em in!
by DKT on Sep 21, 2009 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can ask "Why" all day long with this team...
Why didn’t Bradley go on the DL earlier in the season?
Why didn’t Soriano go on the DL earlier in the season?
Why did the Cubs go into spring training with no back up 3rd baseman?
Why has Bobby Scales been starting in left field for the last week?
…etc.
by WiscCubsFan on Sep 21, 2009 8:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
bradley didnt need to go on the DL
The official slogan of your 2009 Chicago Cubs:
Why?
by jesus christos on Sep 21, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually he did, the first week of our first homestand.
He was relegated to only pinch hitting duty for what seemed like 2 weeks.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
by KaliCub on Sep 21, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh yeah
forgot about that. that feels like years ago..
The official slogan of your 2009 Chicago Cubs:
Why?
by jesus christos on Sep 21, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Proud to be a Cub Fan
The statements by the Players and the suspension of Bradley makes me proud to be a fan of the club despite the disappointment of the season.
by Chodes on Sep 21, 2009 8:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ok, I'll change my mind and post Bradley thoughts here
Castle was right with the character issue. Todd Walker and Kent Mercker are two more examples that come to mind.
All the Bradley apologists should bear one thing in mind – Jim Hendry is widely known as a players’ GM. For him to make strong statements implies that he was pushed pretty far. We aren’t privvy to everything that goes on behind closed doors; there were undoubtedly other issues and discussions.
Another thing to keep in mind – not one teammate has publicly defended Bradley yet. Not one.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 8:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Which...
pretty much says it all. Very damning of Bradley’s role on this team.
by WiscCubsFan on Sep 21, 2009 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points, both.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right about Hendry, in particular.
He gave Bradley a VERY long rope, and Bradley used all of it and more.
Key point also about his teammates. As I said, that puts the lie to the canard that “all his teammates supported him”.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No it doesn't Al
I don’t believe as you do that he was season long "clubhouse " cancer. Milton’s issues were his own. I don’t get the impression ala Jeff Kent etc that he was personally disliked or effected his teammates. He was a guy with demons . Some guys tried to reach out to him and were rebuffed . I think they are shocked and saddened by his dissing the team and the fans but there is no evidence he disrupted the clubhouse. On a scale of 1-10 Milton probably rates a 5 in Cub problems this season, Soriano, Soto and Lou all rate far higher in my book of reasons they won’t go to the post season. ( Miles is too insignificant to rate more than a 3 )
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Sep 21, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Miles' very presence
Should rate him a 12. Unless he handed out sunflower seeds – then it goes to 11.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Sep 21, 2009 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
and I think we’ll never know. But haven’t you ever had a colleague that dragged down the entire workplace. Every day becomes a chore. Even successes feel tainted, since nothing can ever go right with you know who sulking over in the corner. I’ve had that happen, and the consequences—I felt like quitting my job, was a distracted husband/parent—were much farther-reaching that I would have guessed at the time.
by TC Cubby on Sep 21, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Luckily I have not had a colleague like that but
I don’t think that remotely describes Bradley. I am sure Bradley was a distraction but again I think most of the players
were more perplexed than angry. Historically Milton’s problems have been with media, management, umpires and fans.
You would think with all those teams he was on you could find player willing to bad mouth him, it is not like players never say a bad word about a player after he goes but I don’t recall any re Milton that they personally disliked him.
You might check out this article. Again Milton is a difficult , angry man who did himself no favors but I don’t think he was
a major clubhouse issue or that his fellow players hated him.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Sep 21, 2009 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is a good point.
Many people seem unable to see a middle ground between “clubhouse leader” and “clubhouse cancer.” It does sound like Milton was simply aloof and troubled, which could explain why no one is leaping to his defense just as much as if he were a disruptive presence.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Yes, the player quotes are more about his thin skin than and inability to adapt than obvious glee that he is on his way out. In contrast, when the Giants had a clubhouse cancer (AJ Pierzynski) a few years ago, there were no shortage of sniping back at him for his sniping. It seems more like pity in this case that this guy can’t deal with life in the big leagues.
It will be interesting to follow the resulting fire sale, or what unwieldy contract they have to take on to send him on his way.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
by vonde6 on Sep 21, 2009 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The middle ground
between a clubhouse leader and a clubhouse cancer would be a guy who shows up, does his job, doesn’t complain to the media, doesn’t throw his teammates under the bus, doesn’t fight with his manager, coaches and teammates, doesn’t blister the fans and react to them during games, who is in the lineup, despite bumps and bruises. That would be a guy like, say, Aramis Ramirez.
Not Milton Bradley.
by azjazzman on Sep 21, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was referring only to his relationship with his teammates.
But thanks for sharing.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The 80-20 rule applies here
What you are hearing and seeing is only the tip of the iceberg.
The remarks by Bradley’s teammates are very telling. You almost never here these kind of remarks about a baseball player. You can rest assured his teammates are carefully filtering their comments for the media and what they would say privately about Bradley would be much more damning.
Awhile ago, I read an article in the LA Times that wasn’t about Bradley specifically, but had quotes in it regarding that team that Milton played on in L.A. The comments from his Dodgers teammates were eerily similar to the ones made by Dempster, Johnson, etc. This is nothing new.
I don’t know what your definition of a clubhouse cancer is, but if you are saying that Milton did not provide a distraction, or did not negatively impact this team with his antics, you are kidding yourself. The 80% that we are not hearing, because the dynamics of a team are that you do not rip a teammate publicly…would surely change your mind.
In terms of being shocked and saddened, it is clear from the comments made by the people who have been in the locker room that is not the case. They have described a pattern of behavior that existed from day one. Each one of the players, and Lou and Hendry, describes a player who had a chip on his shoulder from the very beginning, and that certainly is the way Bradley has been described before, by people who played with him.
by azjazzman on Sep 21, 2009 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shangai, you're an intelligent and thoughtful poster, but...
taking a swipe at those of us that are Bradley fans is uncalled for by calling us “apologists.” I am one of the group of Bradley fans that would come online to defend him, but to say I’m an apologist would say that I would excuse all his behavior and that is just not true.
His first blow up on the first home game when he got rejected, I came out against Bradley on that one.
He wouldn’t go on the disabled list when his leg was hurting earlier this year and left us one man short on our roster-against Bradley on that one.
His hand chirping motion to some fan, I was for him in that one figuring he was getting razzed by a particular fan and he was giving it back to him in an acceptable manner.
Last week when he “took” himself out, we don’t know what happened there and if he was actually injured or even if he told Lou that he would come out if he got on first- undecided since I wasn’t there.
His latest comment this past weekend, I agree with the suspension.
And I agree that there is no way that he could be back on the team next year as that position would be untenable.
Just off the top of my head, my positions with Bradley have been both pro and con, but I guess its easy to just call me and other Bradley fans an apologist.
I am a Chicago Cubs fan, first and foremost. I, for one, will root for whomever is out there in right field next year. I hope we get someone that we all can root for next year.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
by KaliCub on Sep 21, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Not all Bradley fans are apologists, Kali
There is a small segment that would not come out against Bradley in any circumstance.
Just like there are those (sadly, a larger group) that were bound and determined to hate him no matter what.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This pretty
much describes my feelings too. I felt bad for him at times and other times I just shook my head but mostly I just wanted him to help this team.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Sep 21, 2009 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately, Milton failed to grasp that the VAST majority of Cubs fans DEARLY wanted him to succeed...
…for ultimately, we hoped it meant the Cubs would succeed by getting back into the playoffs and have more success there than the past two years.
Sure there was a small segment of the fan base with predetermined positions about who he was and the type of player he is, but I believe the “silent majority” pulled for him to do well, and ultimately for the Cubs to do well.
Bradley jumped to some conclusions about Cubs fans as a whole as he railed about others pre-judging him.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
by Zeke on Sep 21, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was at a game earlier this season
…when Bradley went 3 for 3 with an rbi and a run. In his fourth at bat, he struck out and was booed.
I’m not entirely sure I agree that the vast majority of fans wanted him to succeed.
by Wreckard on Sep 21, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I checked Bradley's game logs.
The only game this year that matches your description is this one from August 29. That was long after a lot of the antics regarding Bradley had already happened.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he had had such a game in April or May...
… no booing would have happened after the K.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember the fanbase extends far beyond the walls of Wrigley.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
by Zeke on Sep 21, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I assume Bradley does not get paid while suspended.
"Hey-Hey! Home Run! Attaboy Ronnie!" ~ Jack Brickhouse
by ronsanto10 on Sep 21, 2009 8:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Nope...
…he gets paid.
The worst thing is this; I believe Bradley got exactly what he was looking for here, and he walks away with the Cub’s dough.
I said in a thread yesterday, I wonder if Hendry would have stepped up here if new ownership was not coming into town. Certainly, the Cub’s gave a courtesy call to Rickett’s before going forward with this, and you have to wonder how this impacts Rickett’s plans for the baseball operations.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why does he get paid????
When a player is suspended (like Manny), isn’t his apy also cut?
Explain.
"Hey-Hey! Home Run! Attaboy Ronnie!" ~ Jack Brickhouse
by ronsanto10 on Sep 21, 2009 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Manny was suspended under the PED rules...
… which provide for suspension with no pay.
Bradley was suspended by his team; I don’t think there is any rule that permits the Cubs to not pay him.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unbelievable...getting paid while sitting at home. Laughing all the way to the bank.
"Hey-Hey! Home Run! Attaboy Ronnie!" ~ Jack Brickhouse
by ronsanto10 on Sep 21, 2009 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the way a lot of suspensions work
by ol Pete on Sep 21, 2009 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Cubs put Bradley on the restricted list, he wouldn't be paid.
Does anyone know the rules a team needs to follow to put a player on this list?
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Sep 21, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't, but...
… that’s an interesting idea.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe it's only for players....
….that fail to report to the team or fail to sign an agreed upon contract.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Sep 21, 2009 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's a summary of when a player is placed on the Restricted List:
The team retains the player’s rights, but won’t re-activate him until they are satisfied with his status.
A more complete summary, glossed from MLB Rule 15:
Restricted List
Players who fail to report to the team or who fail to sign an agreed-upon contract with the team. Players on this list do not count towards the Reserved List (40 man) or Active List (25 man) limits. Players on the restricted list do not receive pay, and may not sign with another team. A player may remain on this list for two consecutive years before he is removed – either activated or released. Often, placing a player on the Restricted List is akin to releasing him without fully relinquishing his rights. However, sometimes younger international signees can be placed on the Restricted List while they are finishing school.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080928092233AAiM4Gi
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
by Zeke on Sep 21, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That, obviously, doesn't apply in this situation.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right. I couldn't find anything that applies specifically to the Bradley situation...
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
by Zeke on Sep 21, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another definition
this one on by Cot’s Contracts
Restricted List
If a player, through some action of his own, is unable to render his services to his club, the team may petition MLB to have the player placed on the restricted list. Generally, the list is used for a long-term absence, such as a drug suspension, a visa problem or leaving the club without permission. A player on the restricted list does not count against the 40-man roster, and there is no minimum or maximum length of time he must stay on the list. A player on the restricted list is not paid and does not earn service time.
Again, it doesn’t speak exactly to the MB case, but it does say "Generally, the list is used for. This may provide a loophole for the Cubs.
by Sports_Fan on Sep 21, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't trust that. It's British.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
it s United Kingdomish
"That ball left a vapor trail" - Pat Hughes on Derrek Lee's 27th homer of 2009
"I hate to ound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
by JMG1984 on Sep 21, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Paying him not to play is still money well spent
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Sep 21, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Union rules!
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is too bad...
that the system is so one-sided (in favor of the players) that there has to be some sort of recourse for the Cubs to appeal to MLB and the Player’s Union to get back some of their money for this year, and to void the remainder of the contract for the next two years.
Situations like this demand that the team has some sort of recourse to protect themselves if the player goes bad.
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Sep 21, 2009 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree..
When a player has his future secure for the next several years, what incentive does he have to work hard? Should get paid on performance-maybe a small guarantee. That will make these millionaire babies work their asses off (are you listening Zambrano??)
"Hey-Hey! Home Run! Attaboy Ronnie!" ~ Jack Brickhouse
by ronsanto10 on Sep 21, 2009 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well.....
The player’s union is out of control on a lot of things, but – if they didnt’ have these rules, teams could void contracts on a whim.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then it'd be football.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Sep 21, 2009 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True enough, but...
… there should be the ability, in egregious cases like this one, to void deals.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who decides what's egregious, though?
There are still pockets of Cub fans supporting Bradley, and observant fans of other teams like VEP still not seeing it.
Yes, we see it. The team obviously sees it. But this would involve court proceedings.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
Those isolated pockets of fans might have finally surrendered. I don’t want to be like one of those Japanese soldiers that they discovered 40 years after the end of WW 2.
The guy burned his last bridge with the Cubs — but maybe he could go to the Sox as a hero? I could see him and Ozzie having afternoon tea.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
by vonde6 on Sep 21, 2009 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose having Kenny Williams as GM there might entice him.
What bad contracts do the Sox have that we could take?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gulp...Alex Rios?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gulp is right.
I’d rather have Vernon Wells.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that was the only one that came to mind immediately.
Maybe Dr. Crawdad can help us out here.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather have Rios of the two...
He provides about the same performance, but he’s younger and a good bit cheaper.
But I’d rather have neither.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree Milton has to go
but the last thing we need is another long term albatross contract like the one Wells has. he has five years left at over $ 100M, staring with $ 21M next year. It would be far better to just eat Milton’s contract.
If the Detroit rumors earlier this year were true, perhaps we could deal him there and take back ordonez’s contract. At least it’s only got two years left.
by Southside Steve on Sep 21, 2009 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rios is the far better player with the far better contract
He’s owed $40M less than Wells, still plays excellent defense, and may have had a case of bad luck this year.
He’s not worth what he’s owed, but if you had to choose between the 2 contracts it’s a no-brainer.
by Wreckard on Sep 21, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be leery of Rios.
But at least he could play right field; he’d solve that issue, and maybe he’ll rebound.
Worth an inquiry, anyway.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want either.
We’d be better off with a second year of Milton and all that entails than we would taking on either of those contracts.
by Wreckard on Sep 21, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Waitaminute.
Why wouldn’t Rios play centerfield, so the Cubs could put Dome back where he belongs?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess he could.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because Rios isn't a CF either...
I think Fukudome is the better OF of the two, and you want the better OF in CF. Now, Fukudome isn’t a great CF (better-suited for RF), but if he’s the better option in CF than you’d go with him there.
That’s part of the reason why I wouldn’t want to bring in Rios either. He’s just another underproducing corner OF.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I thought Rios was a natural CF for some reason.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he is
your right. He only played RF because of Wells
by socalbob on Sep 21, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah ha!
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is also the reason Reed Johnson
played left field with the Blue Jays. A we’ve seen with the Cubs, Reed’s perfectly capable of playing any of the outfield positions, including center field.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Sep 21, 2009 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahhhhhh ha!
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can of worms
That would open up a significant can of worms of teams trying to find egregiousness in situations where they gave a bad contract. And also for players to create those conditions trying to get traded or voided if they become unhappy with the team or their playing time.
by ScottT on Sep 21, 2009 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Imagine this situation
You work for company and your supervisor doesn’t like you. He hears you complaining about the company’s policies and suspends you without pay even though you have a contract with the company.
While I agree Bradley crossed the line and the suspension was appropriate, I don’t consider Bradley’s behavior heretofore egregious. Inappropriate perhaps, but not worthy of breaking a contract.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Sep 21, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bradly wasn't complaining about the company's policies...
he was complaining and insulting THE COMPANIES CUSTOMERS. A small, but important difference.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 21, 2009 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duly noted
However, would that qualify as a valid reason to break a contract?
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Sep 21, 2009 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
An employee representing an institution making a verbal attack on the customers that the institution relys on to stay in business should be a good enough reason.
If an Apple employee started a blog about how stupid “apple fanboys” are, do you think Steve Jobs would simply turn the other cheek?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 21, 2009 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apple-cheeked?
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
by Zeke on Sep 21, 2009 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This situation is far from done. It'll be like an onion: smelly with many layers.
Ultimately, I expect this to wind up in court in some shape or form. And it will drag on for awhile unless the Cubs find some sucker organization to take him off their hands. Given his track record, I’d be hard pressed to see who (realistically) would want him and his baggage.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
by Zeke on Sep 21, 2009 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno about court, but
otherwise I agree with you 100 percent.
by chilango2 on Sep 21, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, court in the sense that IF the Cubs can't get rid of him in the offseason and try to void his contract for the next two seasons
then, HELLO lawyers! The Cubs won’t let him sit home getting paid $10 million a year until 2012…
But boy, in hindsight it does look like a really dumb contract…
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
by Zeke on Sep 21, 2009 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, of course
but I believe they’ll settle out of court—it’s in the best interest of both parties and the union.
by chilango2 on Sep 21, 2009 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, you're probably right...
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
by Zeke on Sep 21, 2009 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cubs...
…would have no chance of winning on this, no way!
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bradley held a
.341/.476/.651 as a LHF v RHP in 2008.
.304/.372/.594 as a LHF v RHP in 2007.
.293/.375/.511 as a LHF v RHP in 2006.
Those are more than enough at-bats — 3 season’s worth — to hold a conclusion, or to see a trend, about his hitting. He was good as a left-handed hitter for years before he came to the Cubs.
It’s not right to blame this on Hendry — he went and got a player who was worth 4.5 WAR last year, and has been worth 9.6 over 3 years. You can blame him all you want, but at the end it’s Bradley’s fault that he didn’t produce as a player.
by ILike on Sep 21, 2009 8:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Whoops, that is when he's a right-handed hitter.
Almost doesn’t matter, his stats are very similar with him as a LH:
.270/.344/.396 in 2006
.306/.371/.559 in 2007
.312/.417/.523 in 2008
by ILike on Sep 21, 2009 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Screw the Stats!!!
What many people, including you apparently, just do not realize is that the Cubs – for reasons of 100+ years of futility, coupled with the largest NL fan following, are NOT just another “club”.
Along with the Sox (Red), and Yankees, to play for the Cubs a player has to have “Big Show Time” capability, or REALLY thick skin.
Bradley, his agent, and Hendry should have realized this and Hendry, who screwed up terribly this off-season should have known that Bradley – despite his stats – WAS THE WRONG fit for the Cubs.
I backed him – and gave him the benefit of the doubt, until I saw him throw the ball into the stands when I was at Wrigley during my many losses this year against my hated rivals.
by The E-Man on Sep 21, 2009 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so what you're saying is that because of the Cubs history of losing for 100 years,
a player has to have thick skin and get used to the environment of . . . what’s the word? . . . negativity, to prosper here? Is that what you’re saying?
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Sep 21, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Splits Argument
The Splits Argument that Al gives above is short-sighted.
The Cubs wanted a left-handed hitter, but they didn’t want to over-balance. As a team, in 2008, they hit just as well against LHP and RHP, and they were getting rid of a lefty-masher in Mark DeRosa. So, they added lefty bats who actually hit LHP better, trying to keep that balance. Miles and Bradley have the same kind of splits.
This is a case where Jim Hendry understood his club better than all those making the Splits Argument.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 8:32 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The whole "lefthanded hitter" argument is specious.
The Cubs led the NL in runs scored last year with that supposedly “too righthanded” lineup.
How many runs will they score this year? 100 fewer? The supposed lack of LH hitting wasn’t the reason they failed in the playoffs.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that.
I disagree with the idea that MB’s splits proves he wasn’t what they were looking for. As a hitter, he was an ideal choice. But he’s more than just a hitter. And that “more than” proved to be a deal-breaker.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He wasn't the best choice as a hitter, either.
Abreu, Ibanez or Dunn would have been better, even Dunn with his bad defense.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can make the case that Dunn would be a better hitter.
I don’t see much of a case that Abreu or Ibanez would be better hitters on three-year contracts.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On three-year contracts, no.
Hendry does have a disturbing tendency to give out contracts that are way too long.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Three year contracts
was what the market was set at by the Phils with Ibanez.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No sense rehashing history
but Abreu was a 1 year deal since he ended up as odd man out.
by rlpete on Sep 21, 2009 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed!
Hopefully, Hendry will learn from here on out that it is OK to give out a 1-yr contract once in a while!
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Sep 21, 2009 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
most players won't agree to a 1 year contract...
So you’re limiting yourself in the FA market.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Sep 21, 2009 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the cubs of 2008 and cubs of 2009 arent more left handed
2 lefties in the OF and a righty at 2b
The official slogan of your 2009 Chicago Cubs:
Why?
by jesus christos on Sep 21, 2009 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think I'll ever understand someone like Milton Bradley
The man obviously has a lot of demons that he’s dealing with and I’d rather him do it in some other career or at least with some other team. Is he 100% blame for the 2009 collapse? Of course not. The problem is that he made himself an easy target with his bad attitude. He was practically handed the keys to the kingdom with the deal that Jim Hendry gave him. $30 million over three years to play baseball? That’s more money than he deserved. I wanted Bradley to work out for the Cubs because that would mean the Cubs would have been winning games.
Unfortunately, Bradley elected to be a clubhouse cancer. He could not keep his personal demons in check and we really can’t know how much his attitude hurt the team. I’d never go out of my way to say he was the number one problem with this team. If Aramis Ramirez and Alfonso Soriano hadn’t had injury issues this season, if Aaron Miles hadn’t been signed and Kevin Gregg been our closer this year and the Cubs were still out of it, I would say he’s the number one problem. Instead, Bradley has been a contributor to a losing season when he had every opportunity to actually do something different: be a leader. Stranger men have become leaders under worse circumstances.
Instead of stepping up to the plate, Bradley whined and complained. He moaned about racist comments by fans, complained that everyone was out to get him and noted that he was isolated in the clubhouse. If the racist comments were being made, they’re ethically wrong. He’s a human being like everyone else. But remember when he said that he wore the 21 because, “If I could be half as good as Jackie Robinson, I’ve accomplished something.” Jackie would never have approved of Milton’s behavior. Jackie received more abuse than anything Bradley has claimed. If Bradley was isolated in the clubhouse, he needed to look in the mirror. I have the same comment about him believing everyone was out to get him.
To an extent, Bradley is correct. Your past does follow you around. People can be incredibly judgmental. However, I know a lot of people that are willing to give second chances if you show any effort to change. Bradley did not make this effort. Instead, he acted like a three year old and wondered why people were giving him a hard time about it. You just can’t do that as a grown man and expect to receive respect from people. If everyone has been out to get Milton Bradley, it’s because he brings it on himself.
I’m sorry, Milton. I wanted you to work out in Chicago. You just couldn’t because of things we’ll never know. As one human being to another, I hope you can grow out of this, Milton. I just don’t think you should be on a baseball field.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Sep 21, 2009 8:32 AM CDT reply actions 12 recs
Turn it green.
Well said.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree but a shame
I thought that signing Bardley was a mistake from the beginning, having watched him in Oakland. But I was willing to give him a chance…and he blew it. Again. It is a shame because he is a talented player.
wccubfan
by wccubfan on Sep 21, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Abreu Cost Less Argument
No way. Abreu cost less because the market fell out under him. If the Cubs were still in the market, the market doesn’t fall out. Indeed, MB was probably going to go to the Rays, if not the Cubs, and the Rays signed a RH OF, Pat Burrell. So, the Cubs probably would have had to give a very similar deal to Abreu that they gave Bradley, or play chicken with the market.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 8:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Could be...
…but giving the same deal Bradley got to anyone else would have been a heck of a lot better for the Cubs. At least Abreu drives in a freaking run once in a while.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also...
… instead of bidding against himself for Bradley, Hendry could have waited.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He wasn't bidding against himself for Bradley.
He was bidding against at least the Rays and gave Bradley a little less than what the Phillies set the market at.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hendry could of waited
His error believing that Bradley was his number 1 choice, even though Lou wanted Ibanez.
Hendry acted to quick, once Ibanez is off the board, Hendry should of let the situation play out. All the teams had economic reasons to lay low in the free agent market, ( of course the Yanks, Red Sox and Mets did not. They however did not need Bradley) so Hendry should of waited it out.
by Grockcubs on Sep 21, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Revisionist history
Lou also had MB at the top of his off-season list. This was in someone’s article recently.
Hendry did not act quickly. He took some time.
There was no waiting it out. Agents knew the Cubs had money to spend.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I fail to understand why Bradley was at the top of everyone's list.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I'm not mistaken...
…I believe he was considered the best all-around player – switch-hitter, OBP, slugging, historically good defender and still at a decent baseball age. I don’t think any of the other options brought all of those factors to the table. Obviously, Milton had two big strikes against him – health and attitude.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes, the bad outweighs the good.
Do you remember a certain NFL player a few years ago, who had great stats in college, but when he got to the NFL, his behavior was very suspect.
I remember one time when he was filmed yelling at a reporter, “Knock it off!”
The player’s name was Ryan Leaf. Hard to believe San Diego picked him, over some other quarterback named Peyton Manning.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 21, 2009 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'm not a football fan...
…so, no, I don’t remember Ryan Leaf. And I’m not necessarily defending Bradley here – just stating, objectively, why he was highly valued by many during the off-season. If you take his personality out of the discussion, he has a lot to offer as a baseball player. Unfortunately, he makes that impossible.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that personality...
… is the reason that Bobby Abreu or Raul Ibanez would have been better choices.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm guessing Jim Hendry probably agrees with you at this point.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Manning was the number one pick in the draft
SD could not get Manning because Indy already drafted him.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Sep 21, 2009 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he was at the top of everyone's list.
And these guys have different perspectives and know baseball – and certainly had heard more than we’ve heard about what MB is like in the clubhouse.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I note that...
… the teams that signed Raul Ibanez and Bobby Abreu are headed to the postseason.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, if we had signed one of those guys
Soriano and Soto wouldn’t have gotten hurt? And Gregg and Heilman wouldn’t have blown leads left and right? Fontenot wouldn’t have been played against too many LHP and Miles against too many RHP?
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree with you up until the last question...
you forget that Miles wouldn’t be here if it were not for Bradley.
But I agree with you that the Cubs probably still don’t make the playoffs, thanks to the injuries and poor play.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton Bradley's underperformance is probably the 5th biggest reason this team won't be in the playoffs
1) Soriano injury
2) Ramirez injury (which led to Fontenot playing out of position and Miles/Freel playing regularly)
3) Soto bad
4) Bullpen blowups at inopportune times
5) Bradley
I would crunch some ZORPYDORPYDOOP numbers to prove this, but I know many here would just throw them out, so I’ll leave it at opinion.
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Sep 21, 2009 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't necessarily disagree with this...
…though I might amend “Soto bad” to “Soto injured, ineffective, unlucky and lost many ABs to Koyie Hill.”
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Either way,
it’s a meaningless stat culivated by saberdorks to try and create arguments for anything they can cook up.
by ILike on Sep 21, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where is Gathwrong in that?
I seem to remember him playing very poorly, too.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 21, 2009 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joey wasn't expected to add anything...
…but late inning defense and pinch running. He was a 5th OF from day one.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Sep 21, 2009 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He barely played.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even knowing that...
There’s no guarantee that the Cubs would have made the postseason with Ibanez or Abreu, but they would have put up better numbers than Bradley. The injuries to Soriano, Soto and Ramirez did a lot to hurt our chances. If Soriano and Ramirez were putting up career numbers alongside Lee, it’s a completely different picture. Kevin Gregg at closer did not help our cause when the Cubs really needed some wins to keep pace with the Wild Card leaders and the Cardinals. Then there’s the enigma of a signing known as Aaron Miles.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Sep 21, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously, there were more problems with this team than just Milton Bradley.
But there is no doubt they would have scored more runs, and likely won more games, with Abreu or Ibanez.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course they would have
I generally hate playing the what if game because there are just too many variables. I’d rather ask, “What can we do to fix it?” Getting rid of Milton Bradley and Aaron Miles would be a step in the right direction.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Sep 21, 2009 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In hindsight, sure...
but at the time, it was VERY reasonable to think that Bradley would outhit those two.
The only guy who made sense offensively over Bradley was Dunn, and you’d be trading a great deal defensively there.
If you want to argue the personality angle, sure. But retrospectively saying we should have signed Abreu or Ibanez for their offense is revisionist history.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a follow-up...
I was not a fan of getting Bradley. I was concerned mostly with his injury risk. He’s actually stayed healthy. I’m also now growing okay with the idea that he has to go – but due to his personality.
But I was fully on board with the idea that he’d outhit Abreu and Ibanez going into this season so long as he was on the field enough to do so.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
this
my main beef with the signing when it happened was his injury and reporter punching history
The official slogan of your 2009 Chicago Cubs:
Why?
by jesus christos on Sep 21, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton Bradley never punched a reporter
Good effort though
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Sep 21, 2009 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The official slogan of your 2009 Chicago Cubs:
Why?
by jesus christos on Sep 21, 2009 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One very large problem...Lou Piniella.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
by KaliCub on Sep 21, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just out of curiosity, what kind of problem do you see with him?
I guarantee you that I will likely have seen many of the same things.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 21, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lou has not been very accountable since day one in 2009
talking xs and os, not playing Fox this last month in left field after Sori finally went down, Sori batting leadoff and dragging down the team, when we were winning with Dome as leadoff and Lou moves him, Bradley hitting well in the 2nd spot and Lou moves him, insisting on playing his veterans when they had sucked all year, just to name a few off my head.
But the largest reason is his not being accountable for getting the potential from the team that he is managing. (and that is his job) He set the tone when Aram went down, saying that all we have to do is just play 500 ball until Aram comes back. When you accept losing or mediocrity in this case, that is what the players have instilled in them. Its okay to just play 500 ball. They never got it back out of their system from that point on. How about demanding winning? We had the ability to win without Aram, but Lou just accepted mediocrity.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
by KaliCub on Sep 21, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you suggesting...
…that Ricketts comes in here and allows Hendry to take the ball and run with it this offseason?
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you buy a new company,
you do not just make wholesale changes right away. You make a thorough review of the company as the new owner and evaluate the company from the inside and then make the changes that you feel are necessary.
Whatever your or my feelings are about Hendry are immaterial, I think you are setting yourself up for a disappointment when Ricketts doesn’t fire Hendry this winter. I don’t believe for a second that he would do it right away, even if he wants to.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
by KaliCub on Sep 21, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you have read my comments...
…I have stated I fully expect Hendry to be back.
The issue is this; is Rickett’s going to let Hendry hire manager number 3, and retain complete control (final say) in regards to all the other GM duties, or will Rickett’s have someone he brings in to keep an eye on Hendry and provide new guidance?
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, only see the one comment where you replied to me.
The only position that I assume is that you are not a fan of Hendry.
As for your question to me, I think Ricketts will have a handoffs approach to changes in the front office. I don’t think Ricketts will order to fire Lou and I don’t think Hendry will do so either. (In my personal opinion- I wouldn’t either- Lou was very good and accountable the previous two years and deserves one last shot- but if he is lackluster and we get off to a slow start next year, I would can him by May if we haven’t improved)
And I really don’t think that he will hire a minder to watch Hendry in the front office. (hasn’t it already been said that Kenney is staying?)
The only thing I expect from Ricketts is he will do something fan friendly in his favor.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
by KaliCub on Sep 21, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No...
…I am not a big fan of Hendry, and my feelings on his short comings have been posted on this site for several years.
I agree Rickett’s will not have a “knee jerk” approach coming in, but bringing in your own guy who will be your close advisor on baseball operations is not knee jerk, especially if he allows Hendry to stay.
What it would do is give you a fresh approach and create a higher level of accountability (which has been sorely lacking). On Kenney, I’d guess he is being retained for the business side of the club, and won’t oversee Hendry as he has in the past.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
While i agree that a rush to judgment isn't appropriate...
… it should be noted that this should have already been done:
You make a thorough review of the company as the new owner and evaluate the company from the inside and then make the changes that you feel are necessary.
The process of buying the team was intense. I’m sure Ricketts poured over every detail of the team that existed. He probably knows the beast better than anybody right now. I’d trust him to make changes (at least more than i’d trust the current guys, whom the Trib put in place, to continue).
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 21, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The process of due diligence
is much different animal that actually seeing the organization run from the inside.
I expect no changes this winter, as that would have a dispiriting reaction from the rest of the front office. And also, maybe Ricketts has his own view of how the organization should proceed and maybe Hendry will implement his vision. You nevr know how things will pan out.
I’ll make a gentlemens bet with you that no major changes will happen this winter with respect to the front office.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
by KaliCub on Sep 21, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dispiriting reaction???
That’s probably the least of Ricketts concerns.
I would imagine he is more concerned about making better decisions from the front office more than anything.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know Ricketts
but I would be surprised if he wasn’t a businessman first and a fan second.
He will watch the team/front office operate and then evaluate from there. And yes, when you buy a company without a merger, you are not bringing in a bunch of other people to fill the positions either, so yes, he should worry about a dispiriting reaction from the rest of the employees.
I’ll make you the same bet that I made with Andrew, Ricketts will not fire Hendry this winter, even if he does want to. It’s just not a good business decision even if it’s the right decision.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
by KaliCub on Sep 21, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I have stated...
…I don’t believe Hendry will be fired either.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't take that bet...
… because i think i may have not stated what i was trying to say well.
I’d trust Ricketts to make changes if he sees fit, as in, if he makes changes, i wouldn’t doubt on them just because he hasn’t been inside the organization as long.
I don’t trust that he WILL make changes, though. We’ve seen no indication of that, either way.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 21, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is one advantage
that Ricketts has in that he has had time to look deeply into the company before the sale. The long delay in accomplishing the closing of the deal is frustrating. But I am confidant that Ricketts has been given full access to decisions while the process of sale continues. As such, he should be able to move quickly into making personnel changes when the sale is final.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Sep 21, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
THIS...
… was what i was trying to say.
Gracias.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 21, 2009 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And one...
…much larger problem…Jim Hendry!
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I would note that...
…your golden boy Adam Dunn will be sitting at home in October, possibly, just possibly, because one player on a team of 25 over the course of a 162 game season doesn’t make or break a ball club.
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Sep 21, 2009 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, but...
… the rest of the Cubs are a better team than the rest of the Nationals.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, let's not mention that the team Dunn is on is the Nationals...
Albert Pujols would be sitting at home in Oct. if he were on that team too.
Dumb point.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 21, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow!
It’s almost as if I sarcastically responded to a senseless argument with one of my own to display the flawed reasoning!
Keep aiming for that rainbow
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Sep 21, 2009 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cubs have significantly better pitching, yes
But offensively? This season, pretty much a wash.
Cubs
Natinals
Probably Bradley’s fault though that Soriano was outWAR’d by Willie Harris, or that Geovany Soto basically washed Jesus Flores.
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Sep 21, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You just made the point for us.
The Cubs’s pitching is SIGNIFICANTLY better, and with Dunn’s bat in the middle of the lineup….the offense would be too.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 21, 2009 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you look at the link?
Dunn is worth less than one more win this year than Bradley, and the rest of the offensive production is near the same.
If you swapped Dunn and Bradley, guess what? The Nationals are still probably a 60 win team, and the Cubs are probably still an 85 win team because the team’s as a whole are performing almost the same offensively
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Sep 21, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um...I don't buy the...
“this player is worth this number of wins” argument…I know you’ll give me a internet wedgie for that opinion, but I have a REALLY hard time simply using metrics to say what a players production will be regardless of the lineup they bat in. I think the players that bat in front and behind you can affect production to the extent that projections cannot effectively account for.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 21, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's fair
You’re right, lineups are a variable to consider. If Adam Dunn is hitting fourth in the lineup, maybe he sees better pitches than he does in Washington, and maybe his WAR bumps up some. But with the offensive woes this team has had this year, I find it very hard to believe swapping Dunn and Bradley would make much of a difference.
You want to talk about things that projections can’t account for? Like, perhaps, injuries? If the Cubs have Dunn does that mean Soriano doesn’t mess up his knee and play below replacement level for four months? Does it mean Aramis doesn’t dive for that ball in Milwaukee, costing the team his bat for two months and making Aaron Miles an everyday player as a result? Does the bullpen not walk the earth and blow saves? Do they not lose every single starter to injury at some point during the season?
The idea that this team, with the season they have had, could have been salvaged by Ibanez or Dunn or Abreu is ridiculous. They have been unhealthy. They have been unlucky. In some areas, they have been downright bad. And they’ll still win 85 games or so. If Alfonso Soriano hit in accordance with his preseason projections, we’d be in the thick of a playoff race.
Bradley underperformed, no doubt. But let’s not act like he destroyed a 90 win, two-time division championship team because everyone, from the fans to Hendry to the media to Bradley himself, are making it both easy and convenient. That’s just lazy.
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Sep 21, 2009 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn in the lineup performing to his career numbers....
would have taken some of the pressure off Soriano and lessened the impact of losing Ramirez for 50 games…no? Lou/Hendry might have even been willing to put Soriano on the DL and get his knee healthy like they should have had they not had to hope that he could play through it since Ramirez’s bat AND Bradley’s bat were non existent.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 21, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
....maybe?
We won’t ever know what would have happened if the Cubs signed Adam Dunn for the 2009 season. The only way we can reliably figure it out is by using gulp numbers to make intelligent projections.
In this tangent universe where the Cubs have Dunn instead of Bradley, and they still lose Aramis Ramirez to injury, and Soriano now misses an extended amount of time on the DL, and where (I can only assume) Geovany Soto and Mike Fontenot still drastically underperform, and Aaron Miles still gets a significant amount of at bats in the first half of the season, and Zambrano-Lilly-Dempster-Harden all still go on the DL at one point, and every other fly ball hit off Rich Harden still leaves the park, and Carlos Marmol still can’t find the strike zone for half a season…you think the swapping of Dunn for Bradley would make up 10 games in the standings? Ten? I sure as hell don’t.
Or in this tangent universe, maybe the season plays out differently. Maybe not everyone gets hurt and players actually meet their projections, and this stays a 93-95 win team. We’ll never know. All we do know for sure is what these players have done in the past, and can use that intelligently to determine what they will most likely do in the future.
Actually, I’ve said too much. A lot of this is stuff that can’t be measured, and I am legally bound by Bill James, $WAR, and the makers of Microsoft Excel to not comment.
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Sep 21, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm dumfounded that you cannot at least agree that Dunn
could have possibly helped us win more games, since your argument is that the team underperformed at offense.
Would Dunn have made a 10 game difference in our record? Probably not, I doubt a single player could ever have that much of an impact on one season. Could he have given us more offensive production than Bradley and maybe helped us win more games? I think so.
Can you not at least see my point about losing Ramirez and Lou not biting the bullet and putting Soriano on the DL? I’m not saying none of the injuries would have happened or the current players would have performed better, but I do think that we would have scored more runs…and that would have meant winning more baseball games.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 21, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn Vs Fox
I was just browsing their numbers and you can make a case that if Lou had in fact played Fox ( whose defense is no worse than Dunn’s) they would have been in MUCH better shape offensively. Dunn got a little more than two and half times the ABs of Fox, If Fox had in fact gotten 500 plus ABs he would have gotten over 100 RBI’s and about 29 HR. Dunn walks more of course but for a fraction of the cost the Cubs or rather Lou could have tried to use Fox more to get some much needed offense. I realize it is not so simple as just saying well if he had that many ABs he would have done this but it is no more speculative than trying to figure out what Dunn would have done as a Cub. I suspect if Lou had not been forced to use Fox last night because he ran out of outfielders and Fox had not hit the game winning HR we would still be hearing that Lou was right to play Scales over Fox from what I believe are the Lou apologists.
As mentioned ( a LOT lately) I find Lou’s stubbornness in continuing to play Soriano when he was horrible and not giving more time to Fox and Blanco a greater factor in this season’s problems than Bradley. I mean “what do you want me to do” play more productive players ?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Sep 21, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you that Dunn would have most likely put up better offensive numbers than Bradley
I’m not saying he wouldn’t have. Couple more wins here or there? Maybe. Probably.
What I’m saying is Dunn would not have made this team a playoff team, looking at their respective WARs and taking into account all that has happened with the Cubs this season.
Remember this all started after Al “noted” that the teams that signed Ibanez and Abreu are going to the playoffs, as if they are THE reason they are going to the playoffs.
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Sep 21, 2009 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I don't think those two players are the reasons their teams are playoff bound...
but I do think we stood a better chance of making the post season with Dunn than we did with Bradley.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 21, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I would say
with 2009 Adam Dunn instead of 2009 Milton Bradley, maybe the Cubs finish 5 or 6 games out of the playoffs instead of 8 or 9, which to me isn’t that big of a difference. Certainly not big enough of a difference to compensate not signing Bradley when he was the best option in the offseason, IMO.
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Sep 21, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We don't know that.
We don’t know if Dunn might not have hit like a monster during that eight-game losing streak in May, whihc is where the Cubs really fell out of contention. Maybe they’d have scored more runs and won someo f those games, and the gaces would have been a lot closer.
Bradley was NOT the best option, not by a long shot.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
we don't know
that he would have, either.
You’re playing the hindsight game, Al. It doesn’t wash.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 21, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn has had another monster hitting year.
He also had career numbers, before this year, at Wrigley Field that hinted that he could have hit 50+ HR as a Cub.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
doesnt he lead
all active non cubs in homers at wrigley?
"That ball left a vapor trail" - Pat Hughes on Derrek Lee's 27th homer of 2009
"I hate to ound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
by JMG1984 on Sep 21, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, and?
once again. You cannot pick up Dunn’s numbers and simply plop them down in wrigley.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 21, 2009 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drew
Dunn is one of those guys who could hit home runs anywhere. Remember how much we hate it when he comes to Wrigley?
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Sep 21, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure
but it doesn’t invalidate the point.
Dunn is also one of those guys who doesn’t know what the big brown thing on the end of his arm is for.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 21, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
but neither does soriano
"That ball left a vapor trail" - Pat Hughes on Derrek Lee's 27th homer of 2009
"I hate to ound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
by JMG1984 on Sep 21, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, Al
We fell out of contention in May?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/games/standings.cgi?date=2009-07-30
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Sep 21, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Get all technical with me, why don't you.
You know what I meant.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps Dunn
would not have been comfortable playing in Wrigley. Perhaps he would have been booed if he started slow and made defensive errors.
We can do the maybes until the end of time. We can project them into fantasy championships. But they didn’t happen. The season is over and Bradley wasn’t the difference in going home early. If he had a similar year to 2008, we’d still be going home.
No one knows what exact record this team would have with any of the alternatives to Bradley. No one can guarantee Dunn would have had the same numbers in Wrigley. Same goes for for Abreu and Ibanez.
2009 is over. It;s time to plan for 2010.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Sep 21, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can play this game too
What if half of Adam Dunn’s 50 hypothetical Cubs home runs came in games that the hypothetical Adam Dunn Cubs would have won regardless? What if those Cubs win games 8-2 instead of 6-2, or 5-0 instead of 3-0?
What if half of the home runs in this tangent universe were in games the Cubs lose? So now they lose some of 2-0 games 2-1, or 7-6 instead of 7-4?
Wait…what if every single hypothetical Adam Dunn home run was a walk off? That’s atleast an extra 50 more wins right there! I see the light!
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Sep 21, 2009 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To save some people searching through old posts
are you saying, Al, that Milton Bradley is The Reason the Cubs aren’t going to the postseason?
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh.
No, I know it sounds that way, but obviously I’m not saying he’s The Reason.
He is One Of The Reasons.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think anyone will come out and say it.
Obviously no one player can ruin a season.
But a lot of people are saying things that seem to imply a willingness to heap most of the season’s blame on the guy no one wants to defend.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Objectively, it's ludicrous to put all the blame on one player
1) Aramis Ramirez’s injury.
2) Alfonso Soriano’s injury.
3) Geovany Soto’s injury and sophomore slump.
4) Carlos Zambrano’s laziness and injury.
5) Aaron Miles having difficulty hitting above .200.
6) Kevin Gregg’s August implosion.
7) Aaron Heilman being Aaron Heilman.
8) Carlos Marmol having problems with his walks.
9) Bradley performs below career norms, blames media and fans for his problems.
10) General injury issues throughout the lineup.
There’s a lot of blame to go around based on what you’ve seen.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Sep 21, 2009 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lot's of bad stuff there...
…and is why assigning any signficant blame to Piniella is a joke.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He gets some blame
Don’t get me wrong. He’s made some questionable decisions this season.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Sep 21, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree...
…but a manager’s decisions have a way of looking bad when most of their players perform like shit.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Certainly the manager
can’t hit or pitch. But he can make decisions about who has the opportunity to hit or pitch. The Scales/Fox issue is just another decision that I feel indicts Piniella’s performance this year. The failure to deal with Soriano’s injury earlier and Zambrano’s mood swings are another.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Sep 21, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Piniella deserves blame too...
He’s just one of many (including, and possibly especially, Hendry) who deserve blame.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh no
Lou is God’s gift to baseball and he had no idea that Jim Hendry was totally incompetent when he signed on with the Cubs. Jim Hendry is so bad, the badness has spilled over to other Chicago teams. I mean, do you think it’s a coincidence that the Bears are facing injury problems after Jim Hendry injured all the Cubs?
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said!
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I figured I'd save you the time.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm generally one of the first to blame Lou
It’s just important to note that this season was a top down failure.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Sep 21, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're forgetting an acquisition named Joey Gathright.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 21, 2009 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They fixed the glitch
That was done early.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Sep 21, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously, he barely played enough...
…to deserve a footnote in the book on this season.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ibanez has fallen off the face off the earth since his amazing 1st half
Bobby Abreu has had an unbelievable season, and certainly defied all expecations.
Milton Bradley underperformed to his expectations. You act like you predicted a fantastic season for Abreu and Ibanez and foresaw that everything that went wrong with Bradley would. Sorry, but you aren’t that good at predictions.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Sep 21, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Raul Ibanez 2nd half
.238/.323/.447
Bobby Abreu has regressed somewhat, but he’s still had a good year. But to think that he would have had the season that he’s had, and to take him over a 2008 Milton Bradley no less, is complete hogwash. Abreu’s old, too.
Jim Hendry went out and got the player that could have helped the Cubs the most this year. Unfortunately, it didn’t work out… but fault is on Bradley, not on Hendry.
by ILike on Sep 21, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah...
as well as the team which acquired Billy Wagner and the team that acquired John Smoltz.
Through all the distractions and health problems this team had… in mid-August, they were still close to a playoff spot, chasing some very questionable teams.
Not that it comforts me at all, but the Cubs are still over .500 despite everything.
They’re still fighting for a playoff spot right now if they add another bullpen arm in mid-to-late August to go with John Grabow.
Whether it’s Hendry or someone else, the GM of this team for 2010 has a lot of work to do.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Sep 21, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you also note that those teams were in the playoffs last season without Abreu or Ibanez?
Why didn’t the Yankees and the Mariners go to the playoffs last season? I mean, they had the great Abreu and Ibanez, obvious difference makers. I’m sure they were really good in the clubhouse too. I don’t understand how Abreu and Ibanez could have been on teams that didn’t make the playoffs last season when they are obviously key reasons as to why their teams are in the playoffs this year.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Sep 21, 2009 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I for one is not saying this
in “revisionist History”. The market was slow, and there was no way Abreu, Dunn and Bradley were going to get numerous offers, especially for multi year deals. For Hendry to offer Bradley a multi year deal was foolish then as it is now.
by Grockcubs on Sep 21, 2009 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wells
I would be in favor of the Vernon Wells trade. Anything to get somebody halfway decent for Bradley is worth it, even if we have to overpay Wells
by Jamison1 on Sep 21, 2009 8:38 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Can we please put this stupid idea to rest?
Overpay is an understatement: 08:$0.5M, 09:$1.5M, 10:$12.5M, 11:$23M, 12:$21M, 13:$21M, 14:$21M.
Do you really want to pay Vernon Wells over $20 Mil per season for 2011 through 2014?
by rlpete on Sep 21, 2009 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly.
Rather than trading for Wells’ hilarious contract — honestly, probably the worst contract in the history of the game — why not just trade Bradley and a couple of checks for, say, $6-7M for absolutely nothing?
Then, in 2012-13-14, you can spend your $21M annually on Hanley Ramirez or someone, instead of an aging, decrepit Vernon Wells.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Sep 21, 2009 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i want the most expensive outfield in the history of baseball
GETITDONE JIM
The official slogan of your 2009 Chicago Cubs:
Why?
by jesus christos on Sep 21, 2009 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All due respect to Al...
…I am NOT on board with the Vernon Wells idea. I would refer everyone to SouthernCub’s comment here on how financially devastating a Wells trade could be to this organization. If the Cubs want to get rid of Milton that badly, just write him a check and send him on his way.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys may be right about that.
It surely would cost less to simply pay Milton to go home. Maybe that’s the right thing to do.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And there may be other trade options.
SI.com’s Jon Heyman floated this on Twitter this morning:
@SI_JonHeyman: starting to think milton bradley for oliver perez will be discussed. how could it not? #mets #cubs
Perez is signed through 2012, I believe. Any merit to this idea? Could the Cubs bury Perez in the bullpen – use him as a long man/spot starter for a couple years?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
My first thought was the Mets. Bradley for Castillo actually sounds about right. Especially now that “speed” is the new off-season mantra.
by Damen Jackson on Sep 21, 2009 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd prefer either of those options.
Not to pile on, but the Vernon Wells contract is The Worst in Baseball.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I've had the displeasure...
of seeing him in person for a few games as well. Ugly. Just ugly. With that bat speed, he’s got to be injured.
by Damen Jackson on Sep 21, 2009 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh man...I'd take Luis Castillo and his .396 OBP (as of today) anytime.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perez is signed through 2011...
he’s owed roughly the same thing as the Cubs owe Bradley.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think that's a relatively stomachable trade?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you want to watch a guy who should be good (stuff-wise)
consistently miss the strike zone, then pout about it, Oliver Perez is your guy.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Sep 21, 2009 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't...
Dude has no control and has been REALLY bad in two of the last four years.
That’s a lot of money to pay for another guy that Piniella would run off in about 2 months.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nooooooooooooooooo!
I’d rather have nothing. Perez is a headcase with great stuff who can’t find the plate.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Give him the Lieber treatment - put him in the pen, DL often and vigorously (?).
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or why not just trade Bradley for essentially nothing...
and eat most of the contract? It saves us $5-10 million (compared to trading for Perez) and doesn’t eat up a roster spot.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, makes sense.
Just playing devil’s advocate for Heyman.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Mets want him...
… then just eat some of the deal and get a face-saving prospect in return. No need to compound the problem by taking Oliver Perez back.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and if Milton doesn't like the Chicago media...
… the New York media (and Met fans) will eat him alive if he doesn’t perform. Or maybe even if he does.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that's true.
And the Mets will be under a lot of pressure next season after, what, at least three failed years in a row now.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Met's GM...
…is hanging on by a thread, and I don’t see him taking a risk on Bradley, even if the Cubs pick up the whole deal.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that's a bad fit for Bradley...
There are very few places to which Bradley could go at this point, but a big-city market is probably not the best idea.
That said, it doesn’t matter from the Cubs’ end. It just matters from the “buyer’s” end.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about an old Cub and Hendry fav - Dontrelle Willis?
What plus Bradley would it take to work a deal for Curtis Granderson if we were willing to take Dontrelle back, too? I think we’d have a better chance of seeing value back out of Dontrelle than Ollie Perez.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably Vitters
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know what Willis' contract is like
And I love the kid—met him when he played at Kane County—but there’s another alleged “headcase.” Dontrelle will be better off retiring.
Granderson had a down year. Should bounce back, so I doubt Detroit is ready to ship him.
by chilango2 on Sep 21, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dontrelle's "headcase" issues
are of a different kind entirely however. He gets 12 M next year and then he’s done.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hence the quotation marks around the word.
He is one of the sweetest people I’ve ever met. He had some family issues and his confidence is gone. He can’t and shouldn’t be packaged with Bradley, and that was my mistake for not making it more clear. I apologize to you all and to Willis.
What I mean is that the Cubs shouldn’t invest in someone who needs fixing, be Willis or Pérez.
by chilango2 on Sep 21, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No need to apologize.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would wholeheartedly agree
After trying to fix Bradley along with the ongoing therapy for Zambrano and Soriano, I doubt Hendry is up to adding anything that’s breakable.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Sep 21, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't imagine a Bradley deal netting us Granderson
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm assuming
that Bradley gives us not more than a smidge of credit towards Granderson, if we’re taking Willis back.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe you just take Willis, then.
He’s still got talent. If he can work through his psychological issues, maybe he can still be a winner.
Worked for Zach Greinke.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you trust Rothschild to help him?
by Mapmaker on Sep 21, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Willis' issues aren't physical.
They’re psychological. Obviously, Larry can’t help with that. (I’d rather see Larry gone, but that’s another issue.)
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He looks almost as bored and tired as Lou
I know I shouldn’t read into his appearance, but the eye test usually doesn’t lie.
by Mapmaker on Sep 21, 2009 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this would be worth exploring.
Would the Cubs have to put Willis in the rotation? Seems like one of the advantages of taking a pitcher in return is you could minimize his ineffectiveness by putting him in the bullpen.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Dave Duncan is the
pitching coach then I am for it.
by cubdreamer on Sep 21, 2009 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he still costs us in a trade for Willis...
Remember – Willis has only one year left on his contract. Bradley has two. So they’d be taking on $9 million for the potential headache.
Why would that help them when they have Granderson signed at a reasonable rate through 2014?
I guess it’s two separate issues: I can’t see the Tigers wanting to trade Granderson, and I’m not sure Bradley has value to the Tigers.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't trade Granderson if I was the Tigers
but I hear that he might be shopped.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can only imagine he'd be shopped...
in a deal that REALLY benefits the Tigers. He’s relatively young, relatively cheap, really productive aside from this year, and controlled for years.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think i threw up
The official slogan of your 2009 Chicago Cubs:
Why?
by jesus christos on Sep 21, 2009 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you slip and fall down, the odds are good that you did...
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
by Zeke on Sep 21, 2009 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Instead of paying Vernon Wells $21M in 2012-2013-2014....
….wouldn’t you rather be throwing that money at a young, superstar free agent? Someone like Hanley Ramirez? (When does he hit FA, by the way?)
The Cubs can probably trade Milton, along with about $7M in 2010 and $7M in 2011, for a mid-level prospect. Maybe a Kyler Burke or Scott Moore type, a first-rounder who initially floundered. Those seem to turn into something every so often.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Sep 21, 2009 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that return is why I still don't think Milton should be traded
You cannot get anything much better than a David Patton-type for him right now. The Cubs have destroyed any trade value left from his performance this season.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Sep 21, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you'd risk alienating the rest of the team?
Not to mention, sending a signal to potential FA’s that if you are uncomfortable here because of bad apples that turn up, we won’t get rid of said bad apples because we can’t get fair value for them?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could argue (and will get murdered for it)
that allowing people to act out like this to get their way off the team also sends a bad message. I’m fine with suspending Milton, the team obviously felt that was needed, and giving Milton the timeout will hopefully keep media members from getting punched.
Next season though- you still can’t find an equal replacement with our budget and you deal him knowing his numbers are more than likely returning to their career norms.
I accept that he won’t be back, and if the Cubs take offense to what he said (they obviously do) then they have good reason to get rid of him. I just don’t think it is a good trade from a baseball standpoint.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Sep 21, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We don't know what the trade is, though.
What concerns me is that Hendry spent to much time trying to deal Sosa in 2004 that he didn’t do anything else. I wonder about his ability to multi-task in this situation.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll wait and comment more on the trade when I see what it is
But I’m guessing it won’t be much. Perhaps Jim has another Karros trade up his sleeve.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Sep 21, 2009 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll confess that I've considered this, too.
I mean, it feels like Milton is gone at this point. And he probably is. But what if he isn’t?
What if the trade market for him is so awful that there really aren’t any feasible deals? Is it possible that this incident is really nothing more than Hendry using harsh discipline on Milton to send the message that the organization will not put up with his highly ill-advised statements to the media but that the Cubs really have no intention of trading him?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't even begin to imagine the rage if he plays another game for the Cubs.
Horrible things will happen. Things that will embarrass humankind.
by chilango2 on Sep 21, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cats sleeping with dogs, stuff like that.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat. - Albert Einstein
by eths on Sep 21, 2009 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Told ya you should've taken the Vernon Wells deal!"
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat. - Albert Einstein
by eths on Sep 21, 2009 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even if the Cubs can't trade Bradley
the situation has become too toxic for his return, at least between fans and Bradley. I don’t think playing him solely on the road would work out, either.
If he can’t be traded, I can see the Cubs eating the money and releasing him.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Sep 21, 2009 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that's the likely result.
Either a trade, or eating the contract. He won’t play another game in a Cubs uniform.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Eating the Contract"
Get this image of Hendry & Ricketts sitting around a pile of money stuffing bills in their mouth as MB looks on.
by JFCubFan on Sep 21, 2009 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"...as MB looks on...LAUGHING."
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As for a trade partner, how about Kansas City?
It’s a small market, and I’m sure the Royals have gotten tired of Jose Guillen.
Guillen has one more year on his contract and it would be a trade of headaches on both teams’ part.
The only baggage Milton bring to KC is that he tried to go after their play-by-play man in 2008.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Sep 21, 2009 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about Cocoa Crisp?
I think the Royals have an option on Crisp for next season but I’m not sure if his injury this year will affect him long term.
The Royals desparatly need an OBP player.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Sep 21, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My guess is the Royals buy out Crisp
It’s an $8 million option for 2010 with a $.5 million buyout.
You’re right, though, the Royals need some OBP, and Bradley can provide that.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Sep 21, 2009 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why just release him?
send him to AAA. If he refuses the assignment, doesn’t he violate the contract? There’s no way the Cubs should just pay him to play for another team next year. That is rewarding him for his behavior. He gets the Cubs money AND gets to play baseball somewhere he thinks might fit him better? I find that to be ridiculous.
Let the union gripe their head off and try to make the case the Cubs still owe a player who bad-mouthed the organization while still cashing their checks. It’s one thing if you sign the guy to a contract and he under-performs. It’s a matter of opinion and circumstance whether you think Bradley fits there, but he would get his money no matter what.
But you can’t argue that he’s been a terrible employee. I want to see the union make the argument that a player gets to say the things Bradley has said to the press and still get his money.
I want the Cubs to deny him his money just to see the case Bradley would try to make that he’s owed anything from this team. As far as I’m concerned, he’s earned his way to a nulled contract.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Sep 21, 2009 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
bradley has to clear waivers to be sent down me thinks
The official slogan of your 2009 Chicago Cubs:
Why?
by jesus christos on Sep 21, 2009 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and he has the right to decline a MiL assignment.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
by tom s. on Sep 21, 2009 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you site even one instance where a player was suspended for 15 games because of what he said in an interview?
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Sep 21, 2009 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
but name one other instance where somebody has said something derogatory about the organization while he was still on the team. I’ve been trying to think of any other player doing this, but haven’t come up with one.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Sep 21, 2009 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bradley's suspension was a ridiculous over-reaction by Hendry.
Players don’t take two-week suspensions for being rude, and they don’t take two week suspensions for the content of their quotes. Come to think of it, players don’t take two-week suspensions; the last non-drug-related suspension of this length was Albert Belle’s, and he threw a baseball at a fan who was heckling him from the stands.
- Joe Sheehan of Baseball Prospectus
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Sep 21, 2009 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bradley
also knows a thing or two about throwing things at fans.
You don’t get to call your team losers and get to stay around them. I don’t see why that’s such a problem to understand. There are 24+ other players on this team he just called losers. Put yourself in their shoes for a second and then try to defend Milton Bradley.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Sep 21, 2009 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He didn't call anyone a loser. He said he understood why they haven't won here for over 100 years.
First off he is correct they haven’t won for 100 years. If he thinks it’s because negativity that surrounds the team, that’s his opinion. It seems like more of an indictment of the organization as a whole rather than his teammates. In you interpretation he was also calling himself a loser, so what’s the harm? 15 games was by far an over-reaching suspension. There are plenty of people outside of Chicago that can see Hendry was simply pandering to an angry fan base seeking a scapegoat.
Not that you are concerned with facts but Bradley never threw anything at a fan, he threw a water bottle to the ground.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Sep 21, 2009 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
facts
it was a beer bottle.
FWIW, I agree with everything you wrote.
by socalbob on Sep 21, 2009 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was most certainly a water bottle
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Sep 21, 2009 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no it wasn't
go check the video—it was a brown plastic beer bottle
by socalbob on Sep 22, 2009 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
John Rocker
It’s the most hectic, nerve-racking city. Imagine having to take the 7 Train to the ballpark looking like you’re riding through Beirut next to some kid with purple hair, next to some queer with AIDS, right next to some dude who just got out of jail for the fourth time, right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids. It’s depressing… The biggest thing I don’t like about New York are the foreigners. You can walk an entire block in Times Square and not hear anybody speaking English. Asians and Koreans and Vietnamese and Indians and Russians and Spanish people and everything up there. How the hell did they get in this country?
Suspended 28 games, reduced to 14. He wasn’t talking about Wrigley or Cubs fans though, so I think it was a little harsh.
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Sep 21, 2009 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you care about the return?
Saving as much cash as possible, while getting Milton Bradley the heck out of the locker room, is of paramount importance at this point.
The Cubs don’t need to get a return on Bradley, they just need to get out from as much of his contract as they possibly can, and then go sign Adam Dunn or something.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Sep 21, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I shudder to think of Adam Dunn playing RF
He’s one of those players that justifies the DH position. He simply strikes out too much for AL teams to want him. I’m not against having Adam Dunn, but the guy really needs to work on his defense.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Sep 21, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Striking out is just making an out...the only really bad thing about it is the runner can't advance.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 21, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he's a little long in the tooth to work on anything at this point.
But I don’t think I’ll ever understand how Lou could’ve asked Hendry for a “left-handed middle of the order run producer” and Jimbo couldn’t have immediately put Dunn in his grocery basket and headed to the check-out lane.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Old dogs can be taught new tricks
It’s just not easy to do it. If it weren’t for Soriano playing LF, this wouldn’t be an issue. Dunn would essentially be forced to play RF because the Cubs can’t hide his problems at first base. The guy can sure hit for power and draw walks, which is a good thing.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Sep 21, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I certainly don't think it's a great, or long-term, solution.
I think it could have been acceptable for a while, and still good be, provided that the Cubs have their defensive replacements ready to go in any close-and-late situation.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Sep 21, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I think defense has been as much a problem
for the Cubs this season as their offense. I think the key to improving the team is to improve the defense.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Sep 21, 2009 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
along with praying that Soriano, Soto and whoever replaces Bradley will hit next year.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 21, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I won't
stay up late worrying about it, as the pitching staff is so strikeout oriented, but yeah, they could definitely use some upgrades up the middle.
by Damen Jackson on Sep 21, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
its fairly obvious bradley doesnt want to be in chicago
The official slogan of your 2009 Chicago Cubs:
Why?
by jesus christos on Sep 21, 2009 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One more quote
By many accounts, Bradley has been a good teammate and well-liked in the clubhouses he has inhabited. That’s a positive thing; if he can be just “one of the guys”, and keep the temper under control, and avoid that long list of injuries — there is no doubt that when healthy, he can and does produce. I realize that this “case for” doesn’t really read that way, and I’m still leery of the Cubs signing him. I still think there may be better alternatives, including Dunn and Bobby Abreu (who has played 150 or more games for 11 straight years). If the Cubs do sign him, I’ll be rooting for him to stay healthy, calm and productive.
That’s from Al’s story on Dec. 31. I think it was accurate. Note the first sentence. Something went even more wrong this year for Bradley than before. Was it the pressure of playing for a contender that led to issues in his personal life? Was it the reverse? Was it just that his failure to perform well in the first few months ate at him? We’ll probably never know. We just know he didn’t cope with it well.
I don’t really feel sorry for the guy, but for the people in his life that have to deal with him. I hope he gets some professional help.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
by zambranofan on Sep 21, 2009 8:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, at $10 Million dollars a year, he can afford lots of sessions with Dr. Phil...
Seriously, if he doesn’t get help, there’s no excuse.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
by Zeke on Sep 21, 2009 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When I read the comments mid-season where he indicated that he
felt isolated in the clubhouse and discussed how popular Derosa was etc…it gave me the impression that the market here was too much for a guy who is somewhat immature and who may have thought more about money than whether he’d enjoy being under the microscope here. It was a poor decision on Hendry’s part given the alternatives and it was a poor decision on Bradley’s part if he was expecting that he could come here and there would be little or no pressure.
But hey, I am glad he’s getting $30 million guaranteed, he’s earned it!
by DudeVf11 on Sep 21, 2009 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have to disagree with Al on Vernon Wells
He has been “trending down” the last 3 years, is not young anymore and is still owed close to $90 mil on his contract (for 5 years).
That is just too big a risk to take on one guy for that long of a time (given al the other huge contracts the team has right now).
I say NO to Vernon Wells on the Cubs.
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Sep 21, 2009 8:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If Bradley is done...
should the Cubs sign or trade for a replacement RF, or do they just put Fox in right.?
by Cubbiegoon on Sep 21, 2009 8:58 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Tyler Colvin has a better chance than Jake Fox
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the Cubs should put Colvin in the lineup...
… every day for the rest of the year. Let’s see what he can do. He can play CF, too — maybe he’d work out there, or in a platoon with Reed Johnson, with Fukudome moving back to RF.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They should have done that with Fox, too, the day Soriano went down.
Color me skeptical that the Cubs would do that with Colvin, as much sense as it may make.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Sep 21, 2009 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But do you think Colvin is more ready/deserving a roster spot next year than Fuld?
I’m still wondering – if nothing materializes on the trade/FA front – if the Cubs could roll with Fuld/RJ in CF and Fukudome in RF with Baker getting some playing time there, too. Assuming the Cubs hold on to Fontenot and Blanco, they’d have three guys capable of playing second base (including Baker) – with Blanco hopefully getting more time at SS, too.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Colvin/RJ would be a better platoon than Fuld/RJ.
Fuld’s a fine defensive OF, but nothing more than that. Colvin, at least, has some power and some upside potential.
Colvin is also three years younger than Fuld.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hm, yeah, I'd definitely like to see Colvin get playing time here at season's end.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
From what I've read, the Cubs
no longer consider Colvin a center fielder.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Sep 21, 2009 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then play him in RF.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fuld is MORE than defense
He also has great speed( and unlike someone I can think of is a SMART runner) and is a VERY patient batter who draws walks. I still think of him as 4th/5th OF but he is probably a better option in the short term than Colvin who probably needs
another season in the minors. However Colvin and Fox should be playing almost every remaining game and Scales
should NEVER start.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Sep 21, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fuld does not have great speed
It probably seems like it because the Cubs have no speed. It would be nice to do something about that, but Fuld is not the answer.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
by vonde6 on Sep 21, 2009 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...
Fuld has decent speed. He’s not slow. But he’s not a burner, either.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Colvin has a cannon for an arm
I saw him in spring training 2007, and the Cardinal fans that I went with were as impressed as I was. He did not impress with his hitting at the time.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
by vonde6 on Sep 21, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does he still have a cannon for an arm?
Remember, he had major arm surgery this past year.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both could get roster spots, no?
Have a Colvin/RH OF platoon, and have Fuld as a defensive sub/pinch runner/spot starter.
Now, I’m not yet sold on Colvin being MLB ready. He had a nice finish to AA this year, but he’s had his struggles in the minors and his very feast or famine at the plate. I’d be wary of him being overwhelmed at the big league level.
That said, if the team decides to spend on a 2B or on pitching, then Colvin may be the best/only cheap option available.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't expect Colvin is ready
This is mostly a stop-gap for the next 2 weeks.
by rlpete on Sep 21, 2009 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Colvin is being rushed
just like Corey Patterson. He hit .300 in AA ball. Yet he’s going to take at bats away from Jake Fox the last two weeks? No way is Colvin going to start the season with the Cubs next year. He needs some AAA time.
by Clark Addison on Sep 21, 2009 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
From what I've read,
sending Colvin to AAA next year is the plan. They think he needs a little more time in the minors to be ready. (This is why he wasn’t called up earlier.)
He is being called up today since he will be added to the 40 man roster in the off-season and the team simply needs a body that can play the outfield.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Sep 21, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seemed like the discussion is regarding next year...
at least in this thread.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hm, yeah, I'd worry about Colvin being rushed to the majors...
…a la Corey Patterson. Then again, the Cubs seemed to take more time with Pie and look how that turned out.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apples and oranges with Pie...
They handled Pie and Patterson exactly opposite – they rushed Patterson to the bigs and stuck with him too long, and the delayed Pie coming up and then were not patient at all with him.
But yeah, Colvin has some of the same potential issues (low walk rate, high-ish K rate) as Patterson and Pie, minus the speed of those guys.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to know Josh's take on this
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember, Colvin played college ball.
He’s almost 24 years old. Patterson was barely 21 when rushed to the majors. Colvin could be more than ready.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd argue that they didn't take any time with Pie.
In a way that was totally different, as you said, than with Patterson.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They took more time with him in the minors...
but showed him absolutely no patience once he got to the majors.
I think they handled Pie just fine right up until they brought him to the big leagues. At that point, they bungled it completely.
With Patterson, they mismanaged him the whole way.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree completely.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pie...
…was not handled well at the minor league level, and is the major reason he wasn’t ready at the big league level.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He seems to be doing fine right now...
Despite no change in approach. I’d argue that he was handled fine in the minors. The problem was that Piniella immediately tried to change him into something that he wasn’t, and had he no patience with Pie despite trying to completely remake him.
The Cubs didn’t try to pigeon-hole Pie into a slap-hitting leadoff type in the minors. Piniella decided that he had to become a slap-hitting leadoff-type once he got to the majors. The Orioles have let Pie be himself, and he seems to be doing okay.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pie's 2nd half numbers are better than Bradley's
and if he can finish strong, his season numbers will be better than Bradley’s.
It’s painful to imagine where the Cubs would be if we had kept Wuertz, Pie, and DeRosa and not acquired Gregg, Bradley, and Miles.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention Heilman...
Who came over as a result of the Pie trade. Financially, the team would have been far better off this year and next, for sure.
Granted, I don’t know that we make the playoffs even with those guys. The bad years from Soriano and Soto and the injury to Ramirez made a big difference.
Also, there’s no guarantee that Piniella would have even played Pie. But it would have been nice to see Pie have this season in a Cubs uniform, and maybe not have so many questions in the OF.
It’d be nice to be able to explore the idea of trading the underperforming Fukudome (who wouldn’t be as difficult to trade as Bradley) instead of discussing a bailout trade of Bradley.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
It’s been interesting, to say the least, to see how Felix has handled himself – in the AL East no less – in the second half of this season.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Orioles spent the first half of the year
suffering with Pie. He was Terry Crowley’s pet project. A team like the O’s, who were expected by no one to compete, could afford to do that. Piniella did feel that the Cubs could.
Then again, they signed Gathright, who couldn’t do anything Pie couldn’t do.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
by davidalanu on Sep 21, 2009 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is what I meant - more time in the minors.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
After all
MB is just an underpaid salesman. Maybe the OBP freaks will come out in defense of him. The search for a RF continues.
by VillanuevaExperience on Sep 21, 2009 8:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
"Let it be known the public beating has not gone out of style."
So the MB saga is over. We’re all gonna just let it go now, right? Put it behind us? Let Hendry do whatever he has to do to get the guy out of town in a way that’s advantageous to the organization and not worry over it anymore? Look forward to more sunshine-filled days with no MB around? Hoisting that World Series trophy in 2010 is now all but guaranteed, right?
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Sep 21, 2009 9:11 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Meh...yes and no.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those are two separate issues...
Bradley’s removal doesn’t guarantee success and happiness. But keeping Bradley doesn’t necessarily make sense either.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
But now that he’s guaranteed to not be here any longer, we can move the discussion to other things, right?
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Sep 21, 2009 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he's not guaranteed to be gone yet...
Until he’s traded or his contract expires, he’s still a part of the team. And as long as he’s part of the team, he’s part of the discussion.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not on the field or in the clubhouse
And presumably there will be no media vigil outside his front door waiting to ask him more questions. In my delusional little world, I’d really like the next thing I hear about this guy to be what his playing situation is for 2010. Kinda doubt that’s gonna happen, though.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Sep 21, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, it's still a pretty fresh topic...
can’t expect people to move on instantly.
And since this season is moot now, we’re discussing next season. Currently, Bradley is still a part of that, and discussing ways to either move him or not still involves discussing his issues from this year.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The suspension is still fresh, that is...
Bradley’s issues with the fans and media is not fresh, obviously.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And even after he's gone -
Bradley’s contract will linger on as another black mark on Hendry’s resume.
It’s amazing how bad Hendry’s 2008-09 offseason was…. every move backfired horrifically. Ditching $6M worth of Pie, DeRosa, and Wuertz, in order to add $16M worth of Bradley, Gregg, and Miles?! Oh my God that was poor decision-making.
And that’s before we factor in the $20M we still owe Bradley. A General Manager should take more care with his organization’s resources.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Sep 21, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha ha ha...not so fast.
This topic has a half-life comparable to spent plutonium.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had a thought last night,
if we get the same Lou PIniella from this year, there is no way we can win next year.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
by KaliCub on Sep 21, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's up with the lack of love for my boy Fox?
He won the game, and there’s nary a word about him. Are you all seeing this through Piniella’s eyes? Am I missing something?
Jake Fox can win you a game. Play him ahead of Hoffpauir/Scales please.
by chilango2 on Sep 21, 2009 9:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That is not
a flattering portrayal of feminine beauty.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Sep 21, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I were a cynical man
I’d do a word count and tell you that Milton Bradley’s suspension is obviously the catalyst for the Cubs’ victory.
Good thing I’m not cynical.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Sep 21, 2009 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm right there with you on Fox.
Why he’s been buried while Soriano has been out is mind-boggling. There’s a very skeptical part of me that thinks the Cubs are trying to keep his value where it is for one of two reasons:
1. If he plays better, then it becomes tougher for the Cubs to justify letting him go in the offseason (he will have to be signed to a Major League contract, I believe.)
2. If he plays poorly, then his trade value plummets.
So, by keeping Fox on the bench and his stats where they are, the Cubs can go either way without too much outcry either way.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Sep 21, 2009 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fully agree
I just wanted to give a shout-out to the ray of sunshine that he is—always with a quick smile and the supportive comment.
by chilango2 on Sep 21, 2009 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What does it say about the Cubs that a guy can come up and hit .286 with 11 HR and 41 RBI
and he gets buried behind a 32-year old journeyman who plays LF almost as poorly as Fox and a 29-year old who couldn’t hit Major League pitching for a large chunk of time this season?
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Sep 21, 2009 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it says we have a moron as a manager
by Nunyabidness on Sep 21, 2009 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it says we have a manager
who doesn’t want to be here next season.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Sep 21, 2009 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and if he's truly been managing to get fired
then excuse my language but fuck him very much
by Nunyabidness on Sep 21, 2009 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lou has shown in the past
the amazing ability to get out of contracts early. Just saying
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Sep 21, 2009 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and I'm just saying that if that's what he's been doing
then he’s a despicable POS
by Nunyabidness on Sep 21, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can this game be known henceforth
as the ‘Skidmark’ game?
by Mapmaker on Sep 21, 2009 9:25 AM CDT reply actions 8 recs
I support this notion.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Something positive...
I thought Caridad looked surprisingly strong last night. Electric stuff. Could be a solid addition to the pen for 2010. Maybe even a future closer?
by STLCubby on Sep 21, 2009 9:28 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't mind seeing what he can do as a starter
Rather than run Randy Wells out there. Obviously the Cubs are really down on Samardzija and don’t seem to want to get him a start, but Caridad has great stuff, and could be a solid starter.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Sep 21, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, that looks like I'm saying that
I mean shut him down this season because of Well’s high innings. Obviously he is in the rotation next season.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Sep 21, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that idea.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Sep 21, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Caridad.
Hope he can play a valuable role in the bullpen next season.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The double play was a good call by the umps
That’s one of those plays that doesn’t always get called. Holliday was pretty bad. If another team had done it to the Cards and injured one of their middle infielders it would have been a brouhaha.
Contrast it with an earlier play in the game where a Cub slid in to try and break up a double play. He slid low and touched the bag (barely) at the end of his slide.
by ol Pete on Sep 21, 2009 9:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Meanwhile, the Padres are still waiting for Holliday to touch the plate.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, but they're also still waiting for Michael Barrett to come up with the ball.
I don’t know how an MLB team can get itself into a position where the playoff clinching run is rounding third and headed for home, and Michael Barrett is standing at the plate waiting for the throw.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Sep 21, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right on all points
And kudos for the objectivity.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holliday is a big dude
if it was someone like brendan ryan the skidmark might not have been visible
by doofus cubs guy on Sep 21, 2009 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you for saying this
The ivory tower sitting douchebags in St. Louis would have lost their marbles had any Cub player done what Holliday did. It’s against the rules to begin with, and isn’t exactly the safest thing in the world.
Combine that with LaRussa’s whining about Z’s accidental hit by pitch to Brendan Ryan and I was given a nice refill of any St. Louis hate that had left me. Screw that team, those fans, and that city.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Sep 21, 2009 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm 100% serious when I say this is the worst idea ever you've ever had here
Perhaps he can perform the same thing with Bradley; it’s been suggested by some that the Cubs might be able to send him to Toronto for Vernon Wells.
I know you want to get rid of Bradley, but you’d be spend an additional $80M on an awful player just to get rid of him???? If that makes financial sense to you I really hope Mrs. Yellon is the one who does your household finances.
by Wreckard on Sep 21, 2009 9:51 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I've read some of the comments here.
And you’re probably right. Wells’ deal is pretty bad, even if he does rebound to his previous level. That money could be better spent elsewhere.
If they can’t get rid of Bradley by trade, just eat the contract.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry Al, but it appears you're trying to claim that Bradley being here
is why Lou has managed like a mental defective all season? I’m not buying that at all.
Lou, Jim, and Milton can all get on the bus out of town, and never come back as far as I’m concerned
by Nunyabidness on Sep 21, 2009 10:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Fresh Start
Milton just needs the ninth “fresh start” of his career. Really dissapointing, but yes, the great Milton Bradley experienment is over and a huge failure. I’m sure no one is more dissapointed than Hendry.
"Cub fans like to think of things in catastrophic terms." - Crane Kenney
by NashvilleBlue on Sep 21, 2009 10:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The last thing I'm saying about Milton Bradley
I’ve defended him practically to the death here, at this point I’m the only one left that thinks he could help the team on the field next season.
I have no problem conceding that Milton has sucked for the most part this season, and certainly hasn’t lived up to expectations. He’s blown it in big spots and clearly never got comfortable here. He also acted like a giant jackass quite a bit, especially with his last comments. I understand why the Cubs suspended him, that stuff doesn’t need to be said.
I do think though that this is an example of media and fans jumping on a slow start to a season and never letting it go. Even when Milton was hitting well he was being booed by the fans and harassed by the media. The Sullivan’s and Wittenmeyer’s of the world knew their audience wanted to hate Bradley, and the fact that he’s not the nicest person to the media didn’t hurt. They bugged the crap out of that guy in the lockerroom everyday and did it until they finally got him out of town. Good for them, they can now concentrate on getting Big Z out of town.
The whole thing is an unfortunate situation that was mostly the fault of the player, but also had a lot to do with the media and fans setting the Bradley agenda from day 1. Now it’s over, and I can’t wait to get back to talking about Cubs baseball again rather than seeing this place become a bunch of personal attacks whenever the name Milton Bradley is mentioned.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Sep 21, 2009 10:16 AM CDT reply actions 13 recs
rec'd
+1000. Milton Bradley could definitely help this team next season.
I note in Al’s recap that the actual reason for the suspension isn’t there. I’ll have to go find out what actually happened.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 21, 2009 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He could help, if he wants to help...
I don’t doubt that, if Bradley gets his head in the right place, he could have a big year as a Cub. But I do have concerns that Bradley won’t be able to adjust, take his lumps for stinking it up in the first half, and get the ship righted moving forward.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton appears to have backed himself into a corner...
…with his employer. Like I said above, it feels like he’s done here and can’t come back. But I wonder if the suspension was just an act of tough love on Hendry’s part. Could he get a second chance? I fear the Internet will break if he does.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Inadvertantly throwing his teammates under the bus didn't help...
you just can’t say that you play harder than anyone.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that may have been the worst part of all.
Hendry seemed to focus his outrage on what Milton said about the fans, but throwing his teammates under the bus could turn out to be the real dealbreaker.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it was inadvertent.
I think he decided to force the team to trade him so he made those comments. If he hadn’t been suspended, I think he would have continued to make outrageous statements to the press.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Sep 21, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it sure did look like bridge-burning
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
by vonde6 on Sep 21, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just giving him the benefit of the doubt on that one...
in that perhaps he mispoke in a (not rare) moment of anger.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope Hendry isn't here to make that decision
even though I know he probably will be
by Illicat on Sep 21, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dead wrong
He definitely cannot help this team by doing anything but leaving and never soming back. All the defending of this guy that took place on this board was bullcrap and it’s got to stop. We heard coming into the year he was a cancer but everybody swore that was the negative media. Wrong again. Wrong again about this being the fans fault. The fans had nothing to do with this guy being a sack fo crap all year. You can blame Bradley or Hendry but no one else gets the blame for this situaiotm, especially the fans.
"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."
by Itchy on Sep 21, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I blame Miles...
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Sep 21, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aaron or Bruce?
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Sep 21, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
O'Brien

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
What a long, strange trip it’s been.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't rec this comment.
It’s another “blame the media and the fans” post. Hasn’t it been made VERY clear that’s not the problem?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno - It seems a rather messy conglomeration of components, internal and external.
Round about the cauldron go;
In the poison’d entrails throw.
Toad, that under cold stone
Days and nights has thirty-one
Swelter’d venom sleeping got,
Boil thou first i’ the charmed pot.
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and cauldron bubble.
You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat. - Albert Einstein
by eths on Sep 21, 2009 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The post is more subtle than that.
And it’s a good corrective to the black-and-white perspective you’ve been taking. nji232 gives Milton a fair share of blame.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 21, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He does, but...
… I don’t buy the “blame the media and the fans” slant.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So the media didn't have it out for him?
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Sep 21, 2009 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They may have, and many fans may have,...
…and if Milton was a more balanced and emotionally adult person, then this should not have played the role it has. But Milton is who he is, and if he had been “treated kindly,” he might have done better. Mostly this year he appeared to be hustling and trying, but unable to keep his emotions, frustration etc. under check. Afaik, he has required professional help in the past and may be in need of such help now.
You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat. - Albert Einstein
by eths on Sep 21, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton chooses to blame other people for his problems
instead of dealing with them. That is why he continues to have the same result, wherever he plays.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Sep 21, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other media sources seem to think so
Milton Bradley is a talented baseball player with a reputation for behavior that can kindly be called difficult. When the Cubs — Bradley’s seventh big league employer in 10 seasons — suspended him for the rest of the year Sunday, it marked a new low for the outfielder. The Chicago press, which baited Bradley from the jump — check out the tone in this blog post by Gordon Wittenmyer of the Chicago Sun-Times — jeered, predictably. At ESPN, Nick Friedell argues that while Bradley didn’t do much to help himself, he was also walking into an impossible situation at Wrigley.
"Who's Bob Brenly? The guy that used to be the manager for Arizona?" ~ Alfonso Guilleard Soriano
by JohnM on Sep 21, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The situation
that Bradley walked into at Wrigley was impossible, but that was mainly due to Bradley’s past behavior.
If Milton had put up the kind of numbers he had last year in Texas AND kept his mouth shut, been a good teammate and generally dispensed with all the behaviors that make Milton Milton, he would have been embraced by the fans, the team and the media.
But there is absolutely nothing in Bradley’s sordid history that suggests that was even remotely possible.
by azjazzman on Sep 21, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The statement...
… “he was also walking into an impossible situation at Wrigley” is a good summation. Bradley apparently wanted very much to be a Cub; he’s the one who sold Hendry on the whole deal, apart from the Cubs also pursuing him.
He should have realized that he was setting himself up for failure.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
because
he should have realized that the press was going to go for his blood before he even set foot in Wrigley?
really.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 21, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you're in the "blame the media" camp, apparently.
No, it’s the fact that the Cubs are a high-profile team and he has admitted he doesn’t like attention.
Also, Drew, where’s your “all his teammates love him” mantra now?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm in the
everyone here is partly at fault camp. the way Milton Bradley was treated by the media has been disgraceful, and UI don’t much care that some of them are your friends.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 21, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can blame the media all you want
But that doesn’t excuse his behavior. The media would have eventually stopped following him around if he gave them the silent treatment. They’d still write about him, but they wouldn’t shove a microphone in his face so often.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Sep 21, 2009 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both of you, drewishdrewid & Ace Venom, are right, at least partially...
You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat. - Albert Einstein
by eths on Sep 21, 2009 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
when he gave them the silent treatment
he was practically crucified.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 21, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I notice you aren't defending your statement..
… that all his teammates said Bradley was a great teammate.
Because that is certainly untrue.
Bradley could have gotten along with the media and they with him, if he chose to. He chose not to.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would be nice if he at least admitted he was wrong about that.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't hold your breath waiting.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat. - Albert Einstein
by eths on Sep 21, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
right, because
players should be nice to people who print nasty things about them.
I don’t see anything in any comments that any players have made that say they don’t like him.
I do see statements that say he needed to handle it better. I happen to agree, but I also think he was incited.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 21, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which do you think came first? The stories or the nastiness?
Because whether you believe them or not, all 3 beat writers for papers said he was unapproachable from the beginning.
George Castle blogged about it, too.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the stories
were out before he even set foot in Wrigley.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 21, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So it's impossible that Bradley was surly in Arizona?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
From what I hear, he was.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, it is pretty hot there.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the stories were out
before he went to spring training.
Look, whatever. Neither of us is going to convince the other. Let’s just drop it.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 21, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
♪You say potato♫
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
He couldn’t have seen this coming. Were all other things (Soriano, Rami, Soto, the bullpen) to have gone to plan, and MB had played like he has this season, we’d be in an entirely different boat.
MB on the 08 team wouldn’t have been a problem, i suspect. He’s the new guy on a team that failed this season. Some element of scapegoat / sacrificial lamb has to be admitted here.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 21, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting....
The more I see, read, and hear, the less I think of Gordon Wittenmyer. And evidently, I’m not the only one.
by Damen Jackson on Sep 21, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, it's cool to see...
…someone calling Gordo for the vendetta he had against Bradley from the get-go.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i like how
a writer from the WSJ somehow has the inside scoop on the situation at wrigley and with the chicago media
"That ball left a vapor trail" - Pat Hughes on Derrek Lee's 27th homer of 2009
"I hate to ound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
by JMG1984 on Sep 21, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the writer is just making...
…an objective observation and providing an example. As someone who’s been reading Wittenmyer’s tweets and articles all season, I can confim that he’s been utterly lacking in objectivity about Bradley since Milton joined the team. Gordo & Sully have been an embarassing tagteam of bad jokes and snarky remarks all year. It’s no surprise that Bradley gave his (more than likely) final interview to Bruce Miles.
Again, not excusing Milton for his behavior. He’s a big boy, he should be able to handle beat biased beat reporters. But it’s still disappointing and frustrating to witness.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
especially about Paul Fire Zambrano Right Now Sullivan
"That ball left a vapor trail" - Pat Hughes on Derrek Lee's 27th homer of 2009
"I hate to ound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
by JMG1984 on Sep 21, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can add Dave Kaplan
with Sully and Gordo.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Sep 21, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yes...
…you are so right!!!!
You have to admit, we have a nice variety of sports media in Chicago. We have writers with no clue at all about the game, we have weasles and we have those that are unbelievably arrogant, and want to be the center of attention.
It makes things very interesting.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 21, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And this is why print media is dying...
… while sites like BCB are flourishing.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 21, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's just ridiculous
Print media isn’t dying because of clueless writers. It’s dying because the Web has destroyed the market for print advertising.
by elgato on Sep 21, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's also dying because too many people don't know the difference between real journalism
and blogging. I’m not saying some real journalism can’t be done by bloggers, but opinion is opinion- it’s usually not journalism…
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
by Zeke on Sep 21, 2009 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I sort of understand what you're saying ...
please elaborate.
by elgato on Sep 21, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think too often people confuse opinion for journalism.
There is a reason that Op Ed is clearly identified in print media (traditional newspapers). I feel the lines blur between opinion and actual reporting on the web. Just my opinion, not an indictment of anyone here…
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
by Zeke on Sep 21, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What?
You mean what were doing right now doesn’t qualify as journalism?
"That ball left a vapor trail" - Pat Hughes on Derrek Lee's 27th homer of 2009
"I hate to ound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
by JMG1984 on Sep 21, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
You are 100% right, Zeke.
Journalism, with many years of tradition, defined the boundaries carefully between commentary and reporting. The editorial page was pure commentary, as were individual columnists, and some sections — including sports and features — were allowed to blur the boundaries.
I could provide some great examples, but this thread is tangled enough without getting into politics.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
by vonde6 on Sep 21, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
opinion has creeped into hard news stories in traditional papers and that is another reason why people are getting their news from other sources.
Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton
by KaliCub on Sep 21, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Explain to me, then...
… why this post will top 750 comments, while what is going on over at the Trib or Sun Times sites won’t?
The print format, from the top down (and including the journalists, or what is left of them at many of these publications) are complacent and lazy. For too long, they were THE source of the news. The internet flipped that on them, sure… but it wasn’t just the advertising factor that got them here.
The average cubs fan would probably prefer Al’s game recap, with links to whatever relevance (if any) happens to make its way out of the papers. But when you’ve got one of the major papers OWNING the darn team, it isn’t hard to see the whole thing has become too incestuous and dysfunctional to be worth much.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 21, 2009 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Totally agree.
And I’d cite my own personal experience as proof. The more time I spent here learning about baseball (and elsewhere on the Web …OK, mostly here), the less I relied on the mainstream media. And it’s gotten to the point now where my respect for most mainstream baseball writers has fallen to such low levels that I view almost everything they say with suspicion and skepticism. Most of them don’t try hard – don’t progress or keep up with the times – because they don’t feel they need to. Meanwhile, their credibility is dropping along with their subscription rates.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, I go to BCB first in the am before going to the Trib or Sun Times websites...
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
by Zeke on Sep 21, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Trib and Sun Times still have websites?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 21, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
They probably have banners and malware and everything.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Sep 21, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and they kill trees too
You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat. - Albert Einstein
by eths on Sep 21, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's not really the issue
Print journalism, for years, was the only show in town — so it could charge a lot for advertising. That money went into building big newsroom staffs.
The Internet has wrecked that model, because newspapers are losing advertisers or have to charge them far less. That means less revenue to keep the newsrooms staffed, which means less good journalism and fewer readers.
That’s why print journalism is dying. The people in charge of the industry weren’t smart enough to figure something out to endure the changing times — so, yes, newspapers WERE complacent and lazy.
Now, is the quality of reporting where it should be? Probably not. But it’s not causing the death of print journalism. It’s not that simple.
by elgato on Sep 21, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amazing!
all this talk about MB has somehow transferred to an indictment on the complacency of print media!
"That ball left a vapor trail" - Pat Hughes on Derrek Lee's 27th homer of 2009
"I hate to ound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
by JMG1984 on Sep 21, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
Maybe Glenn Beck will start posting on BCB
"That ball left a vapor trail" - Pat Hughes on Derrek Lee's 27th homer of 2009
"I hate to ound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
by JMG1984 on Sep 21, 2009 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I work in marketing...
… and most days, place thousands of dollars of advertising in papers, as well as online (although my buys there aren’t nearly as big).
If it were really just a question of advertising, all papers should be able to shut down print operations and open up websites, and run the BCB’s of the world out of business.
But it doesn’t work that way.
Before the internet, what was in the paper was the word. Now, screw something up and you hear about it… loudly and often.
Hence, newsprint writers, still needing to sell words to put food on the table, don’t take risks. They write what will get attention. They write what is easy.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 21, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
my point is that lack of quality reporting ...
is more a symptom of the death of print than the cause. Sullivan, Gordo, et. al are having to do (probably) five times as much work as they did 10 years ago. This makes the quality of their reporting really suffer, because they’re stretched pretty thin.
by elgato on Sep 21, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
...which brings us right back...
…to how Gordo & Sully have handled Milton Bradley.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
can't tell -- are you responding to me or Stone?
by elgato on Sep 21, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he was saying...
… MB was an easy story this season. He’s a jerk. We all knew it. Writing about it daily, with the access they have, was pointless.
Figure out something new, Mr. Press Pass and locker room access.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 21, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just totally disagree with that
The Cubs’ big free agent acquisition struggles, has a confrontation with his manager, says he prays games don’t go into extra innings, gets ejected during his first game at Wrigley — and you DON’T want that covered?
Really?
by elgato on Sep 21, 2009 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That stuff, sure.
But don’t pretend they weren’t egging him on for an easy story.
A lot of this stuff was one step above TMZ sending dudes to follow Britney around all the time. She’s crazy, and them peppering her with questions and basically getting in her way at every turn doesn’t help.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 21, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and letting that kind of thing happen over and over again....
is the organization’s fault.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 21, 2009 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sully and Gordo egged Milton on
… causing him to get trashed by Lou, etc., etc.? I think the media’s ability to make things happen is vastly overstated.
by elgato on Sep 21, 2009 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know about this.
All I’m saying is I found the manner by which Gordo & Sully covered Milton Bradley unprofessional and consistently irritating. Throw Phil Rogers and Dave Kaplan in here, too.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
People have chosen
to view the news which is up to the minute rather than buy a newspaper that has old news. Readership declined so ad revenue declined. The daily news era must change to accommodate the reality of 2009 and beyond.
As a result there are few real journalists. The news has changed to entertainment to attract readers and viewers. Voila! Let’s hire entertainers. Entertainers need to be edgy rather than profound. Thus a Cronkite is replaced by a Limbaugh or Olberman.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Sep 21, 2009 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, and that Memelo guy who's on 'GN sometimes,too.
I heard him essentially blame the Cubs failed season on clubhouse chemistry – leading back to Milton, of course – a couple weeks back.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Memolo has zero credibility
He says nonsense and makes dramatic pauses all the time.
“And the SUN . . . rose in the EAST today. Is that on Hendry? We’ll talk about that later.”
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The media absolutely deserves SOME of the blame...
the vast majority of the blame goes to Bradley of course, but the media certainly didn’t help matters.
The fans? I think they deserve little to no blame as a collective in this case. Certainly there are unruly fans who go to far, but that’s the case anywhere. I don’t see the fanship as a collective as being in any way wrong.
by SouthernCub on Sep 21, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fans deserve NONE of the blame
And anybody who suggests that is dead wrong.
"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."
by Itchy on Sep 21, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I personally witnessed...
… on multiple occasions, fans treating MB with pure unadulterated disrespect. Racism, sometimes. Sure. Sometimes not. I mentioned being at a game and watching him get bood as he stepped up to the plate (not yet failing at the at-bat) while the scoreboard touted his .500 homestand.
Don’t act like that sort of stuff didn’t play a part in his being uncomfortable.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 21, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Every team in baseball
has players that are booed when they come up to the plate. Here in Arizona it is currently Chris Young and Eric Byrnes. They have both been taunted in an extremely distasteful manner. Both have been quoted as saying that while they don’t like it and don’t think it fair, they understand that it is part of being a professional athlete.
You will find comparable situations in ever major league city. Alex Rodriguez gets booed and slurred by Yankee fans, for crying out loud.
If an athlete is looking for 100% support from fans at all time, even when they are struggling, they are going to be disappointed a lot. It is not the fans job to make a player “feel comfortable”.
by azjazzman on Sep 21, 2009 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Booing takes place everywhere.
The cubs fan make it an art.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 21, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, they are much worse than Philly fans
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 21, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That doesn't really disprove my point.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 21, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on Itchy.
Were you in the stands when other posters on here heard fans say racist comments at Bradley? Just because you didn’t hear them does not mean they weren’t said. Some fans do have a blame in this.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Sep 21, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also heard Soriano say he hears that crap whereever he goes and that it's part of the game.
There are a-holes in every park just trying to get under players skins, especially if they’re a controversial figure who happens to be having a bad game/year. You can talk about the a-hole fans but you cannot impune the entire Cub fanbase because of Milton Bradley’s problems.
"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."
by Itchy on Sep 21, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hearing it on the road and at home are different.
And pretending what Sori hears and what MB hears are the same is ignorant.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 21, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you know that?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sitting in the bleachers about once a series this season?
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 21, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm there every day.
Trust me, Soriano has heard a tremendous amount of bad stuff.
And does he blame the fans for his problems? Nope.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Undoubtedly.
I get this, guys. I get that MB failed here.
I just don’t see why the cubs shouldn’t have to take some responsibility for signing a guy who had done the same previously in other places.
Everyone is blaming Bradley. Well, sure… he’s been something of a pain in the rear. But wasn’t that to be expected? And couldn’t steps have been taken to prevent it? The claim that he “wanted” to be here has been floated… so then he’d have been open to signing a contract that would have punished him for this crap, right?
Just because he can’t handle things with the grace that we’d prefer doesn’t mean the Cubs are absolved of responsibility with respect to how this played out.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 21, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jim
should be blamed a little bit for not doing enough homework, BUT Milton did say he wanted to change the public’s perception of him in his Jan 6 news conference and i think we can all agree he didnt try very hard to do that
"That ball left a vapor trail" - Pat Hughes on Derrek Lee's 27th homer of 2009
"I hate to ound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
by JMG1984 on Sep 21, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know that ANYTHING could have been done to prevent this.
You’re right, Cubs management has to share in the blame here, because this could have been predicted from the day of the signing.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretending it isn't is ignorant.
I guarantee Soriano has heard way worse stuff over 3 years at Wrigley than Milton has in 5 months.
"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."
by Itchy on Sep 21, 2009 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you know that?
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Sep 21, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just being out in the bleachers over the last 3 years
for about a dozen game s a year. Soriano gets absolutely scorched every time he makes a donehead defensive play, gets picked off, etc. He has heard it all. It’s not the fans fault!
"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."
by Itchy on Sep 21, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In Detroit, I was sitting behind home plate during the 3-game Cubs/Tigers series in June.
When Sori came up, the fans chanted “Off the JUICE (clap, clap, clap-clap-clap)”, and laughed when he wiffed, but I did not hear anything untoward directed at any of the Cubs players. When Gameboard came up, they chanted “Candyland” at him, but that was it.
Sori stared down the chanting fans. Bradley did not.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
by Zeke on Sep 21, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said entire..you did.
I said some. Some fans hold a blame in this.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Sep 21, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't agree
with any fans being blamed for anything that has transpired with Bradley this season.
"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."
by Itchy on Sep 21, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
we
are shocked at that.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 21, 2009 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Imagine that. This coming from
a guy who wanted a hit put out on one of our own players.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Sep 21, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was kidding
"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."
by Itchy on Sep 21, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reading many of your
posts in the game threads make it hard to tell if you are kidding or not.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Sep 21, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right on, Sue
The one most to blame for Bradley’s problems is Bradley. But if you think the fans haven’t had at least a small part to play in this whole drama, you haven’t been paying attention.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 21, 2009 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blaming the fans
is a mistake in my opinion. Being a pro athlete requires a thick skin. If they don’t like getting booed and insulted, turn down the 10 mil contract and take a $10 an hour job at a factory somewhere. Mike Schmidt, a hall of famer, was booed mercilessly in Philly. When I lived in San Diego and went to games at the Murph, I used to see Strawberry get absolutely savaged by the Mets fans in attendance. It happens. Now, I think yelling racial slurs or personal insults is totally classless and disgusting, but it is an occupational hazard. Getting shot at is an occupational hazard for police officers. I have people curse me out and call me names at my job nearly every day. I don’t allow them to have the power of ruining my day. Milton should have done the same.
I never liked the signing because I didn’t think he was that great of a player to begin with, and also because you had to figure it was just a matter of time before he either got hurt or went of the deep end.
by qccub on Sep 21, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
just curious
Are you a lawyer? A repo man?
I am not making fun, just curious what kind of job exposes you to abuse like that. I think that most jobs do sometime, but “nearly every day” seems trying.
Wait a minute…are you Lou Pinella?
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
by vonde6 on Sep 21, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm guessing parking meter attendant.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately
a minority of fans can seem to be a mob to someone with Bradley’s maturity. Let’s admit that some fans were overboard in their treatment. Most of us realize that the drunks in the bleachers aren’t representative of Cub fans. Bradley never came to that conclusion.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
by tharr on Sep 21, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not in the slightest.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 21, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you're convinced that the media had it out for Bradley once the ink dried on the contract?
Riddle me this, Batman . . . . why? What’s the motive?
Maybe Sully, Gordo and Bruce play a drinking game at the winter meetings, with the result being who they will target in the next season.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The motive? That's easy.
A story that sells itself and everyone wants to read and talk about. In other words, everything that’s happening right now.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 21, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, apparently it didn't shut me right up.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 21, 2009 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But none of this would've happened if the guy produced and shut up.
No excuses, this is all on Milton.
"He can't hit, he can't field, he can't run—all he can do is beat you."
by Itchy on Sep 21, 2009 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The guy could have not produced as long as he didn't make the comments that he did
Let’s face it. If he said stuff like, “I just stink right now,” or didn’t say anything to the media, most of us here would be willing to give him a second chance.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Sep 21, 2009 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
EXACTLY!!!
Make it green.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he DID say
more than once that he needed to produce better on the field.
And then he went out and did it.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=bradlmi01&year=2009&t=b#month
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 21, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What, for four weeks?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 21, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al.
This makes me sad. He consistently improved month to month, till he slumped in September.
Your dislike for Bradley should not mask you to the truth of his performance.
"I’m not going to allow Al Yellon to flush this thing down the crapper without a fight." (BLOU)
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 21, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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