Just another reason to love Mark DeRosa
by Hack on Sep 22, 2009 10:03 AM CDT
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PrintConfession: I was for bradley coming here. I loved DeRosa, but I figured that Hendry trading him was a necessary step in getting the team "more left-handed" = the type of balance that makes a 97 win team a 97 win plus 11 postseason win team (or so I thought).
"Sure trade DeRosa high, go after Peavy, go get Bradley and that ridiculous on-base percentage, he'll be fine here" I said.
Well, I was wrong. Not wrong about needing Bradley, but wrong about anticipating Big Market Milton being as rock solid as last year's Mid-Market Milton, and wrong about DeRosa's intangible value to this ball club.
I gave Milton all the chances he deserved....and then some.
Not only has Milton been an epic failure both mentally and on the field, with this suspension being the icing on a bad 30 million dollar cake, but throughout the season we have heard tidbits of just how much DeRo loved being a cub. To me, this blog by bruce levine brings this DeRo-Bradley discussion to a painful conclusion:
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/columns/blog?post=4493454&name=levine
Unfortunately, we all know who Theriot is talking about here.
We got rid of a productive player who loved all things cub, he embraced the intangibles of cubdom, while desperately wanting to give us what we haven't had in a long long time. I mean, the guy is talking about his love for the cubs while playing for a cardinal team that has a real shot of getting to the World Series!
Here's to hoping Hendry brings DeRosa back, he may not be left-handed, but the Jersey Boy epitomizes everything that most of us want in our Cub players.
***added at noon (in order to nip all of the "just another illogical DeRo lover at it again" commentary in the bud)
I wouldn’t consider myself a “Deromantic” in the original sense of the term.
I didn’t freak out when he was traded, and I didn’t piss and moan all year about Bradley and how I wish we still had DeRosa.
As I mentioned, it took Bruce Levine blog to get me to reach this DeRo conclusion.
To clarify my feelings……
If we are rebuilding, don’t bring DeRo back, it would be a terrible idea. Trade all who will waive their no trade clauses and try and right this ship over the next half decade.
If we think that we have 1 more year to take a shot with this core……..DeRo makes sense at a reasonable price. This would be operating under the assumption that better collective (team) health, bradley out, plus better years from soriano, zambrano, etc could put the cubs above a Holliday-less cardinal team.
My post may have sounded like I want DeRo back simply due to some illogical man-crush, but that is not the case. I want to win, and I have come to the conclusion that DeRo’s leadership could be worth the cost.
I understand this discussion may turn into - "Is hope for next year a realistic thing?", "When should we start to rebuild?", "Should DeRo be part of a realistic 1 year push?" etc.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Thoughts on a DeRosa reunion?
I would say my feelings were similar to hackerar’s on the DeRosa trade and the Bradley signing.
I will say that I still believe the the Cub’s W-L record and Bradley’s personality are not as closely linked as some may want to believe. (Looking at the numbers of individual players, this is about a 500 team, and I don’t believe that many if any players would have played better without MB).
That said, would DeRosa be a logical player to bring in this offseason? When I thought the trade was a good idea, I figured DeRosa would be heading into his final year as a Cub anyway and that in this case we had been fortunate to bring in a player for his best years.
So, here is the question, would resigning DeRosa be a good baseball move (including intangibles), or would it simply be a move to try in vain to go back in time?
Eamus Ursuli!
That's a good question.
DeRosa suffered an injury right after the trade to St. Louis that has affected his play the 2nd half. He’s going to be 35 before next season begins; clearly, no matter how good he’s been the last three years, he is going to be in the decline phase of his career.
That said, there is clearly still value in having a player like him, for many reasons. If he could be signed to a two-year deal for a reasonable price, I’d do it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I wouldn't
I love DeRo, but the Cubs have more pressing needs. Had the Cubs not traded for Jeff Baker — who is a younger, better fielding version of DeRo at a lower price — I could see why getting DeRosa makes sense for next year.
A ‘reasonable’ contract for DeRo will probably be around $5 million a year. With so many players locked into long-term deals — and no REAL need for DeRo on this team — I couldn’t back the signing unless DeRo took a huge discount to return.
I'm not yet convinced...
… that Baker is a “younger, better fielding version of DeRosa”. Haven’t seen him play the outfield yet.
And then there’s that leadership thing. You know, the thing DeRo did for two years in the clubhouse. The thing you can’t quantify.
Yes, it matters.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agree re: Baker
Much has been said comparing Baker and DeRosa. Sure both are versatile players, and who knows Baker could evolve into a player similar to DeRosa.
What I see though in DeRosa is an everyday player who can be moved around to play many different positions.
To me, Baker at this point is a good utility player, who has not yet earned the right to be an everyday player.
I definitely see some red flags in bringing DeRosa back, but it might not be a bad idea. Could he platoon in RF with Kosuke, and then play some additional 2B and back up Aramis at 3B? I could certainly envision worse.
Eamus Ursuli!
what about Baker's performance makes you think he's not an everyday player?
Is it just that he hasn’t played every day long enough for you to be sure?
Exactly
I am in no way anti-Baker, in fact, I think there is no reason a team couldn’t have both DeRosa and Baker on it.
That said, until he proves that he is an everyday player, I will have some doubts.
To put it another way, I am not as high now on Baker as I was a year ago on Fontenot, and look how that has turned out.l
Eamus Ursuli!
agreed about Baker in the OF
When we got Baker, I thought it was reported that he could play the corner outfield spots? Am I wrong? I know he hasn’t actually played in the OF for the Cubs (Lou’s too busy giving Scales time in left).
Al, I’m not one who discounts leadership (and I’m not a stat head). But the Cubs are in TERRIBLE shape financially for next season. Signing a utility guy for two years and $5 million per should not be the priority — especially when he’s about to turn (or already is) 35.
Trading DeRosa was a mistake. I’d worry that re-signing him (after the Cubs have addressed needs created by his trade) would be another mistake.
You have a point...
… and I realize the Cubs are going to have to do something with contracts over the winter.
It’s still worth investigating.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Baker should be able to play the OF
and I have been very confused as to why Lou has been playing Scales over Baker as well as others – but you never know who’s banged up or what’s going on in a clubhouse in Sept and rosters are expanded.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
I've wondered if Lou has been playing Scales in LF
simply to get a look at him in the outfield.
They’ve had a look at Fox and have a pretty good idea of what he can do at the major league level.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Sep 22, 2009 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Why though?
Scales has never really been an outfielder – even at the minor league level? Maybe to add “outfielder” to Scales skillset to make it more likely they could include him in a trade package? I mean, the team still has Sam Fuld to back up the outfield, and I would guess Reed Johnson stands a pretty good chance of being brought back. Colvin is getting a look now, too. I still don’t get the Scales thing.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
I doubt
that there’s much that could be done to enhance Scales value in a trade. Simply put … his age deflates his value. He could play all the positions out there, but with his history, age, there’s just a huge wall there.
I really have no explanation for Scales, other than perhaps Lou taking a liking to him/his story.
He has spotted there before
His “natural” position out of college was 3rd, but due to a logjam in the Rockies system, he got worked at other positions. From 06-08, he had a total of 107 AB’s in left and right field.
Ever seen Arsenic and Old Lace
Now there’s the Rooseveltian leadership we need!
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
I think the idea of focusing on leadership is a bit flawed
You never know how one individual will adjust to a clubhouse. The only exception is if he’s been here before, and even then, there’s no guarantee with individuals in different roles. Now, a team should pursue good clubhouse guys, but searching for leadership, as the defining characteristic, to add is an iffy proposition in formulating an offseason plan (I know you aren’t suggesting that).
It depends
If the Cubs have Baker (and to a lesser extent, Fox) as a backup, there’s no real point for DeRosa. Now, if they ship off Baker/Fox, then the value of adding DeRosa rises, and thus, a DeRosa addition could be justified … at the right price.
Thing is … I really don’t expect it to happen. 2nd base is one of the few positions where we can look to add a top of the order bat, and I am fairly confident than Mark will find a team where he is starting most of the time, akin to when he was with us.
I also prefer starting Baker over DeRosa if I had to pick.
oh, on DeRosa
I really expect him to stay in St. Louis. Who knows, maybe a better offer comes along, but they need a guy to man 3rd, and his contract won’t be a big issue for them.
Troy Glaus should be back for them next year, right?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
bleh meant to type more
Glaus will be a FA, and with them likely to spend on Holliday (or go after a big time player, perhaps Bay … or another move … gotta keep Albert happy), I doubt they bring back a guy like Glaus. Allen Craig was moved to the OF, but he has manned third before, that said, DeRo should be affordable enough for them, and they seemed fairly pleased. I imagine a 2/3 year deal that doesn’t break the bank would do the trick, a deal that, if they find a better 3rd baseman, would allow them to shift DeRo to bench duty without batting an eye.
Only time will tell.
Glaus is a free agent after this season, according to Cot's.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Sep 22, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions
The Cards have publicly stated that they want DeRosa back.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
hard to say it
but part of me wants to see the Cards win it all, so DeRosa can get a ring. He is a class act.
I too was for trading a year early instead of year late, and I am not going to cry over spilt milk at this point.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
DeRo on the Cardinals ...
makes a WS win for St. Louis harder to swallow. And that’s saying something, because I personally loathe the Cardinals.
YES HE IS or WAS.....
Don’t expect Hendry to bring him back . To do that would be admitting another mistake . The Cubs are in this position today because of the weak bench .
We should trade Theriot to free up money to sign Jose Guillen.
I still can’t believe that Hendry’s last offseason actually happened.
If the Brewers and Cardinals had somehow secretly taken the Cubs’ front office over last November, they couldn’t have plausibly damaged the team any more.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
All I'll say is this:
There could not be two more different players in terms of temperment and attitude than Mark DeRosa and Milton Bradley. The fact that one, from a certain perspective, replaced the other may have made matters worse.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
that's very true
I’ve argued that the Cubs could have had both players on this year’s club if Hendry hadn’t made other bone-headed moves (Miles, Gaudin, Gregg). But enough fans believed that DeRo left to make way for Bradley that logic didn’t really matter.
The timing of the moves ties them together in most people's minds.
DeRosa was traded away on New Years’ Eve – (thereby beginning Hendry’s annus horribilus), and Bradley was acquired just over a week later, on January 8.
Also, we kept hearing about how “we have to get more lefthanded” at the time, and DeRosa had spent a bunch of the end of 2008 in RF.
It doesn’t take much of a leap of logic to tie the two moves together.
As we’ve all noted, the finances didn’t mandate DeRosa’s departure — Hendry clearly had millions and millions to blow on ridiculous BS prior to the 2009 season, like giving Gaudin $2M and then promptly releasing him, or giving Aaron Miles a 2-year deal which would practically equal his prior earnings in MLB to date.
But when one move so closely followed the other, and the GM crypically referred to the departing right-handed hitter and our new left-handed hitter… well… I can see where fans jumped to that conclusion.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
agreed
Milton was the big name who replaced the other big name.
The timing of the DeRosa trade, I fear, will be long remembered.
When Cub historians talk of this current group of Cubs, I can’t help but believe that the New Years’ Eve 2008 trade of DeRosa will be milked for all of the metaphorical emphasis it can be.
I mean, when you talk about “turning the calendar page”, or “closing the book on an era”…. trading away the team leader on New Years Eve is about as portentious an event as you can muster up.
If the Hendry Cubs were a “Behind the Music” episode, we’d hear about 12-31-2008 just before going into the second commercial break, right before the squabbling and the drug abuse.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Oh, let's leave Soto out of it!
:P
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 22, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
awesome
http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2009/09/21/the-dugout-rational-human-beings/
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
pretty good
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 22, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
That date is the last entry on
his Official Website.
No mention of his time in Cleveland, or heading to St. Louis. It’s almost as if he’s trying to pretend it didn’t really happen…
"Was you ever punched in the face five hundred times a night? It stings after a while." ~Rocky Balboa
That's kind of hilarious.
After his 12/31/08 blog post, the whole website just sits there in stasis.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
absolutely agree
In my mind, Hendry made three assumptions when he decided it was safe to trade away DeRosa:
1) Mike Fontenot would be an adequate 2B
2) Aaron Miles would be an adequate reserve infielder
3) Aramis Ramirez would stay healthy.
I, like most fans i think, have been surprised to see all three of those assumptions fall so far short.
Eamus Ursuli!
+100
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Cue the violins
If trading DeRosa in the first place was a mistake, bringing him back would be an even bigger one. He ain’t exactly tearing it up for the Cardinals, he’s going to need wrist surgery after the season, and he’s, what, 35? Or will be soon?
The Cubs already have someone on the roster like him: Jeff Baker.
I liked DeRosa personally and was glad his two best seasons basically were with the Cubs. But to this day, I cannot understand why Cubs fans love the guy as much as they do. I swear to God, not even some legitimately great players elicit the reaction DeRosa does. It boggles my mind.
And it also reinforces my view that Cubs fans are far too sentimental about players that, in the long run, really aren’t worth getting that worked up about.
Close the book, erase this season and move on already.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 22, 2009 11:11 AM CDT reply actions
OMFG
I pretty much agree with NBF. I think I just saw frogs falling from the sky.
So you're saying
world peace is possible? :-)
I run in some other Cubs fan circles and believe me, the DeRo love here — at a site full of smarter-than-average Cubs fans — is nothing compared to those.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 22, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure you're right about the sentimentality
I think it’s as much group-think. I COULD see how DeRosa would be useful next year (if a lot of other moves are made) because he’s a useful player. But the Cubs just can’t afford him given all the contracts already on the books.
And I expect big things from Jeff Baker.
In a bad year for Hendry,
Baker and Grabow/Gorzelanny stand out as his best moves.
I still think selling high on DeRosa was the right thing to do. Hendry gets a lot of static about selling low.
The bottom line is if everybody else had played up to par and Ramirez hadn’t missed two-plus months — which is out of whack with his usual M.O., in which he misses maybe 15-20 games at the most — we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 22, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
I'll take this one step farther
And I DIDN’T like the DeRosa trade at the time.
No disrespect to the OP or those who want DeRo back, but if you take 25 average to above average players that love being Cubs, and give me 25 above average to star players that are decent guys, I’ll win 10 games more than you.
I think that’s where part of the sentimentality comes from. DeRosa loved being a Cub, and as fans, we love that. Sure, it’s great – would be nice if everyone felt that way. But that doesn’t make him a more valuable player.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 22, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
that's true ...
as long as they don’t dislike being Cubs to the point where it negatively affects their performance.
Indeed
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 22, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
You wouldn't have anybody
in mind, would you? :-)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 22, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Selchow Righter
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 22, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions
LIND
The official slogan of your 2009 Chicago Cubs:
Why?
by jesus christos on Sep 22, 2009 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Type B status
I think it is worth noting that DeRosa will be a type B free agent at a time when he is coming off the best years of his career.
Eamus Ursuli!
He's also hit roughly half of his career home runs in the last 2 years.
That puts up a big question mark (no pun intended) for any team looking to sign DeRosa.
Is he still on the upswing of his career or will he start to decline and if so, how quickly?
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Sep 22, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions
That just means the Cubs can add him without giving STL their #1 pick.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
If Hendry had, in fact, sold high.
That’s the second part of the problem.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
guab has been nails in triple a
The official slogan of your 2009 Chicago Cubs:
Why?
by jesus christos on Sep 22, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions
That, and $3.49, will get Hendry a grande mocha at the Addison Starbucks.
This Cubs team is built to contend right now.
It was definitely not in the “assemble a critical mass of young bullpen arms for the minor league squads” mode – especially when acquiring said arms meant dealing away a key contributor.
You know who else was nails at AAA? Jeff Stevens. And that was good for a 9.72 ERA in 7 appearances for the MLB team this year.
Forgive me if I hold my applause on the return Hendry got for DeRosa.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
But is there any traction to the idea...
…that Hendry picked those guys up for Peavy and then got “stuck” with them when the deal fell through?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
If that's what happened,
Then he’s an idiot for not working out a three-team trade instead of doing it piecemeal.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 23, 2009 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Or...
… maybe the deal he thought he had made fell through AFTER the pieces were acquired.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Then if Shapiro has integrity, that trade is rescinded
Assuming a 3-way trade was done properly.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 23, 2009 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I still wonder whether Hendry...
…threw himself so headlong into the PV deal that he just lost perspective on many other issues. In any case, when DeRo was traded, I felt quite sure it was a precursor to a PV trade – and I seem to recall reading someone (Buster Olney? Bruce Levine?) write that the PV deal was quite far along before it fell through.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
I thought that's what happened - and with Pie/Olson, too.
The Olson trade still has me confused.
Why would the Cubs trade away the one top position player prospect in the entire organization for another somewhat-above-average high-minor-league arm?
I’m not just emoting about losing Pie here – I am legitimately confused as to how that trade could possibly have helped the Cubs at any organizational level. It’s baffling.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
People bitch that the Cubs have a "broke" farm system
Considering what the Cubs had back, this was a good chance to restock the farm system while not affecting the big club adversely.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 25, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
This is where you misunderstand the DeRomantics (as you call them).
There’s no doubt that if DeRo had been on the team when Ramirez was out, the offense would have been far better with DeRo as the 3B replacement than Fontenot (with Miles playing 2B — essentially, you would have had DeRo in the lineup instead of Miles).
That certainly would have helped the Cubs win several more games than they did. Enough to make up a 7.5 game wild-card deficit? Maybe not, but he surely would have made the Cubs a better team.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by trading DeRo ...
Hendry was betting that Ramirez wouldn’t be out for a long period of time. Or that Aaron Miles wouldn’t suck.
The first was a calculated risk that didn’t pan out. The second was bad management.
The third mistake — and Hendry shares the blame with Lou — was not calling Fox up sooner and sticking with Miles for so long.
Better by not much
and not enough, almost certainly, to make a difference in the postseason races.
BTW, I have all the DeRomantics’ albums. They’re pretty good. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 22, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
it's such a hard thing to estimate
Would DeRo instead of Miles meant seven more wins? I don’t think DeRo is that good, but Miles has been SO bad …
Guess we’ll never know.
I'm late to this thread, but the biggest difference would be another veteran
and vocal leader in the clubhouse. Another proven guy may have helped steady Bradley. Maybe MB still underperforms in this LH power role, but doesn’t reach the same levels of bat shit crazy. Intangibles.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Here's a what-if we haven't talked about -
but I think that if Corey Koskie had been able to play, and had taken Hoffpauir’s roster spot, I think this season would have gone significantly differently. Koskie was a talented 3B in his day and a LH bat Lou would have liked.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
Are you kidding me?!
Corey Koskie was not the reason the Cubs failed in ’09.
- Injuries
- Jim Hendry’s offseason signings
- Lou’s managing
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
This board is so hyper-sensitive right now.
I did not say Koskie was the reason the Cubs failed. I said the season would have gone differently.
And for goodness’ sake – Koskie was 1a) an injury, 1b) a credible backup at 3b, 2) someone Jim Hendry signed, and 3) someone I argued Lou would have liked.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
You said...
…“this season would have gone significantly different.”
Not being hyper-sensitive. A healthy Corey Koskie would have made little to no impact to the Cubs season as a whole.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
A healthy Koskie would have been a far better backup than Miles.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Allie would have been a better backup than Miles
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 22, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
well, he did catch the ball
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Ah okay.
At this point, that goes without saying. But how would have a healthy Corey Koskie made a significant difference for the 2009 Cubs?
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Because a healthy Corey Koskie...
… would have produced at 3B in the absence of Aramis Ramirez.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
When Koskie last played
he hit .261/.343/.490 – as a left-hander. That’s not a bad #5 hole hitter if you have to have it from the left-side.
So, month one, Lee and Bradley are struggling, Lou can start putting Koskie in at 1B to give Lee time off. When Rami goes down, we’ve got a legit LH 3B to play there and Fontenot isn’t jerked around the diamond, adding even more pressure to him. Fontenot settles in and doesn’t hit like he did in ‘08, but he hits well enough that the bottom of the order isn’t a blackhole. Miles still stinks, but Jeff Baker comes in and takes over the platoon role. The Cubs don’t send Gathright for Freel – they’ve got a 3B after all. He goes to Boston for cash considerations. Because Koskie is doing well enough with Rami out, and because Jake Fox is killing the ball in AAA, the Cubs feel ok with putting Soriano on the DL for his injuries and bring up Fox to play LF. Fukudome is left at leadoff with Koskie and Fox providing enough power from the 5-6 spots of the lineup. Emboldened by his comeback, Koskie begins to speak openly about what it’s like to be a Canadian and the prejudice he faces in the States. During one of these interviews, Milton Bradley weeps openly, finding someone in Koskie who understands what he feels. The two bond and Milton’s personality issues cool. The Cubs are playing so well that the Cardinals don’t acquire Matt Holliday and Tony LaRussa pitches a fit. He and Pujols stage a walk-off, giving Chris Duncan a shot at 1B, and elevating Dave Duncan to manager. The St. Louis pitching falls apart and the Cubs are ceded the division.
I told you it would have been different.
Randy Wells - You continue to astound me.
by DGU on Sep 22, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I applaud your alternate reality and would like to live there.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
can u leave breadcrumbs pls
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Agreed.
Koskie was another one of Hendry’s long shots that didn’t pay off this off-season.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
clarification
I wouldn’t consider myself a “Deromantic” in the original sense of the term.
I didn’t freak out when he was traded, and I didn’t piss and moan all year about Bradley and how I wish we still had DeRosa.
As I mentioned, it took Bruce Levine blog to get me to reach this DeRo conclusion.
To clarify my feelings……
If we are rebuilding, don’t bring DeRo back, it would be a terrible idea. Trade all who will waive their no trade clauses and try and right this ship over the next half decade.
If we think that we have 1 more year to take a shot with this core……..DeRo makes sense at a reasonable price. This would be operating under the assumption that better collective (team) health, bradley out, plus better years from soriano, zambrano, etc could put the cubs above a Holliday-less cardinal team.
My post may have sounded like I want DeRo back simply due to some illogical man-crush, but that is not the case. I want to win, and I have come to the conclusion that DeRo’s leadership could be worth the cost.
"If you're scared, go buy a dog" - Stacey King
brace yourself
I’m not arguing with you. But I predict a bunch of people will be along to question the cost of leadership …
I'd also be shocked if the Cubs go into rebuilding mode
I could see it happening AFTER next season, when Lilly and Lee are free agents, and when Fukudome only has one year left on his deal.
I can't tell - are you coming around to admitting the trade was a mistake?
“… to this day, I cannot understand why Cubs fans love the guy as much as they do.”
It seems that the actual Cubs love this guy, too.
It’s been an entire season, and both DeRosa and the remaining Cubs are still talking about Hendry’s stupid idea to trade DeRosa for a bunch of magic beans.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I don't think it was a mistake
I think it was a smart thing to do. And I don’t think having DeRosa here would have made the season any less painful, at least not enough to make a difference.
I am not going to get worked up about losing a guy that, according to Baseball Prospectus, is similar to Eric Soderholm, Dave Nilsson and Marcus Giles. Neither should you.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 24, 2009 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions
BP took three names out of DeRosa's top 10 comps at baseball-reference.com...
… which you can see here, in order to prove a point.
Of course, that includes eight years of part-time play (and a pair of Sept. callups) and four years of full-time play. What if you compared him to all players at ages 31-34, the ages in which he has played full-time? Who would be your comps then?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Similar batters through age 33
include Paul Lo Duca, Geoff Blum and Rance Mulliniks.
Most similar by ages include Tony Graffinino and Hank Majeski.
Sorry, Al, but that isn’t making me genuflect.
Maybe you should narrow it down to guys with stubble who are at least 33 and whose names begin with “D.” :-)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 24, 2009 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions
No, that's not what I meant.
Compare his combined production from ages 31-34, the years he played fulltime, to other players’ combined numbers for those four years. (I know you can’t just get those from a bb-ref list.)
Maybe you’d see a different list of people.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If you want to manipulate the system
to benefit your boy, Al, go right ahead. But your manlove for DeRo is bordering on pathological.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 25, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions
"Manipulate the system"?
No, I simply asked you to compare apples to apples, instead of taking names off a list you know isn’t completely accurate.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It is apples to apples
for everybody else, apparently, except for the golden boy.
Again, agree to disagree on this one, since I think we agree on many more issues.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 25, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not "worked up about it" - I'm just curious as to when you'll accept reality.
I mean, it’s been an entire season.
And based on your “interesting” relationship with the reality of what was happening on the field this year, I assume you’re going to continue to claim that things are going to turn around and that the Cubs will wind up on the better of this trade until every single player involved is retired and/or dies of old age.
In the meantime, though, it’s fun to watch, I guess.
I mean, as evidenced by the article linked by the original poster, the impact of this trade is still rippling through the organization. DeRosa keeps talking about the Cubs, current Cubs keep talking about DeRosa – even Milton Bradley’s mom got in on the act. For better or worse, these Cubs believed that they lost something very important when DeRosa was traded. And at a certain point – especially in a game that has such a crucial mental component – that belief becomes reality.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
If the Cubs can't exist
with the “security blanket” that was a journeyman utility player, then they aren’t very good in the first place.
Again, I think your manlove for DeRosa borders on the pathological.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 25, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Resigning DeRo would have to be at a huge discount.
I think there would be WAY too much pressure on him to ride in on a white horse and get us back to 97 wins just like that. The #1 thing that hurt us this year was injuries, not the lack of DeRo.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
The lack of DeRosa hurt quite a bit.
Even leaving Ramirez’ injury out of it. Strictly from a performance standpoint, DeRosa would have outperformed Fontenot at 2B.
When you factor in Ramirez’ injury, the gulf between DeRosa and Miles is so large that it pretty much ends the discussion.
More to the point, however — it was apparent last year that the Cubs looked to DeRosa as a team leader. (It is even more apparent at this point, with the Cubs tracking DeRosa down in STL and chatting him up, for crying out loud.)
Take Boston, for instance – a team that the Cubs should be emulating — the BoSox’ leader is Jason Varitek. Has been for years. He hasn’t been the most productive player at the plate, and he’s definitely making more than he’s worth. But Boston stuck with Tek until it became apparent that he absolutely could not hack it anymore…. and then after acquiring his replacement, they still kept him around!
Hendry traded the Cubs’ leaders away and added Milton Bradley, who proceeded to alienate everyone in the entire organization and stink at baseball for an entire year, and then to accuse Chicagoans of being negative racists.
So yeah, I think that even the SABR geeks running the show in Boston can appreciate the intangible value of keeping your team leader around.
Hendry, on the other hand, kept on chasing Milton Bradley for 5 years.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Sep 22, 2009 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
I don't know where to start.
First of all I never said losing DeRo didn’t hurt. But the gap between DeRo and Fontenot doesn’t all the sudden make up for 7 GB in the freaking wild card. You want to say Miles is terrible, sure we all agree on that. But I blame Lou for not giving Fox a chance earlier.
Second of all bringing the guy back in ‘10 doesn’t all the sudden solve our problems.
Thirdly having DeRo on the team doesn’t all the sudden stop us from getting hurt. DeRo wouldn’t have blocked Sori’s knee from hitting the wall. Wouldn’t have stop Z from swinging to hard in BP. Wouldn’t have stopped Dempster from jumping over a railing. Wouldn’t have protected the fragile Rich Harden. Lilly. Aramis. Reed Johnson. Seriously, has everyone forgot about what actually happened this season?!
This love affair with DeRo is seriously making us look pathetic. He was great. You loved him, I loved him, we all freaking loved him. But seriously everyone, get over it.
Holy cow where is NBF when I need him.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
You've provided counterarguments to about 5 arguments I didn't make.
Weird.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Haha okay and what did you do exactly?!
My original statement was pretty simple. DeRo coming back in ’10 is not all the sudden going to make us a 97 win team. And the number one thing that hurt us this year was injuries, not the loss of DeRo.
Then you went off on all these tangents that I never spoke of, so since you did I put together an opposing argument. Don’t like it? Now that’s weird.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Do you really need me to walk you through it?
I mean, the post is right there.
I said that, while I agree that DeRo’s presence this year wouldn’t have made the difference, his absence hurt quite a bit.
Then, I told a story about how baseball players sometimes react badly when their leaders are traded, and how Boston has held onto their team leader, even as his career has faded.
I didn’t say anything about ’10.
I certainly didn’t say anything about the Cubs’ ‘09 injuries, other than that the presence of DeRosa would have helped in Aramis’ absence.
And while I’m at it, why bring up injuries to Z, Dempster, Lilly and Harden at all? None of them missed substantial time, and besides, any argument that injuries to the Cubs’ starting pitchers are the reason for this year’s failure is wrong. Starting pitching has been awfully good. The problem was offense and Kevin Gregg.
So in conclusion, yes, it’s weird that you responded to my post by randomly asserting that I’m claiming that losing DeRosa cost the Cubs 7.5 games, or that bringing DeRosa back in ‘10 would ensure success. Here’s what I’m saying:
Trading DeRosa in the final year of his very reasonable contract was stupid.
It was stupid because the trade did nothing to help the 2009 team in one of the final years of its window of contention, and it appears especially stupid in light of the fact that the team looked up to him as a leader.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Say what?!
Here is the TITLE of your post.
“The lack of DeRosa hurt quite a bit.”
No where in there did you say anything about “while I agree that DeRo’s presence this year wouldn’t have made the difference.” NO FREAKING WHERE.
My original post mentioned ’10, therefore by replying specifically to it, you are making a counterargument. Did you reply fail? Seriously, because this makes no sense to me.
Ugh and my point regarding starting pitching wasn’t about individuals, rather than the team as a whole being injured throughout the year. Thought you could pick up on that, but I’ll learn from that.
Why are you still arguing the point that trading DeRo hurt that team? Who ever said it didn’t!!!!!!!! My god, leave it alone already.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
For crying out loud, I was agreeing with you!
You said “the #1 thing that hurt us this year was injuries, not the lack of DeRo”.
My response was “well, the lack of DeRo hurt quite a bit”, because the dropoff to Fontenot was big, and the dropoff to Miles was gargantuan.
As a corrollary, I noted that the entire point of this thread is Theriot’s recent convo with DeRosa, and I briefly discussed Boston’s handling of Varitek. Because I thought it was a decent analogy involving an aspirational peer organization.
And finally, it has been a freaking article of faith for the true believers around here that trading DeRosa not only helped the organization in the abstract, but also helped the organization in 2009.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Well said...
…and there is something to be said for some level of continuity. Hendry seems to be in constant scramble mode, because he is either fixing a hole that was not properly filled and or from the lack of young players to step in from the farm.
Continuity with the manager is another area I hope improves in the years to come. I don’t think it is coincidence, that most clubs that have had long term success, have had one manager for most of the ride.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
The managerial part I agree with
Tom Kelly had some rough times with the Twins, but they stuck with him.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 24, 2009 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Absolutely...
….You don’t see the guy from MN get canned when they have down years, or the Angels, or the Braves or the Cards etc. etc… Those teams have a master plan, and they stick to it, because they hire managers they know fit with that master plan. The front office also knows that these managers can’t win if they aren’t given the right talent, and they are willing to give them time until they get the roster gets to where it needs to be.
More times than not, when any professional sports team has a habit of going through a lot of managers/coaches, it is a direct reflection back on the organizations inability to create the stable environment and execute a sound baseball plan for success.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 24, 2009 11:38 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I tried calling the Pope with my nomination to have Mother Derosa canonized a Saint.
His secretary wouldn’t let me through saying that curing clubhouse cancer wasn’t really a miracle. Then they started talking stats and I just hung up realizing there was no way to explain intangibles to some people.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 22, 2009 12:02 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
LMAO
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Did you explain that he was Italian?
They might’ve appreciated that.
"Was you ever punched in the face five hundred times a night? It stings after a while." ~Rocky Balboa
Hey, Paisan. Speaking as an Italian myself, I gotta say . . .
Thatsa gooda pointa.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 22, 2009 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions
It never crossed my mind.
I actually did not know that he was Italian.
I’ve often read that Bradley is fragile, does that mean he’s Italian too?
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
just so everyone is clear- I'm pronouncing fragile as "fra gee lay"
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
he can't be a saint.
although he did become a cardinal rather quickly….
It's not about money. It's about winning and getting over the hump. We've had the appetizer now, but we left the main course on the table.
-rod beck
by laidbackliam on Sep 23, 2009 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions
We've Rued The Day We Moved DeRosa
Well spake were the assumptions behind Fontenot and Miles. But Hendry also assumed that
d) Soriano would have a streaky but productive year
e) There would be no further drama in right or left field
f) The rotating platooning of bench players would gel
Well, Kosuke was a pleasant surprise and Milton was the most unpleasant inevitability we wanted to act surprised by. And whoda thunk athletic dudes like Gathright and Co. would underperform so thoroughly .. ?
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
Well, Gathright barely played.
And I don’t blame Hendry for assuming Soriano would have a typical year – remember,a “typical” year for Alfonso Soriano is a pretty good one when all is said and done. But, ultimately, the lack of depth at third base was a glaring mistake.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
The fact that we moved Pie ($400K) and gave his job to Gathright ($1M) is a tragedy.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Hyperbolize much?
That isn’t a tragedy. Six people in one family getting murdered downstate is a tragedy.
A little perspective is a good thing.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 24, 2009 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Take hyperbole literally much?
hy⋅per⋅bo⋅le 
1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as "to wait an eternity."
Yeah, because baseball blogs are where we want to be reminded that real life tradgedies occur. Why even watch sports, there are so many more important things we should be doing with our lives……………I’m gonna go watch the news.
"If you're scared, go buy a dog" - Stacey King
You're right. And last night's game wasn't really a "victory", either.
I mean, look at how our fighting men and women are giving their lives for the American cause overseas. That’s a true victory.
And really, all of Kevin Gregg’s blown saves this year weren’t really “losses” – after all, the only thing that was truly “lost” was that night’s sporting event. A mere blip in the grand scheme of things. We should all focus our energies on the true losses in our world, such as the lost acres of rainforest being devoured by the slash-and-burn tactics allowed by corrupt South American governments, or the lost lives of millions of Africans in sub-saharan African needlessly dying of malaria and the scourge of HIV running unchecked.
Or, we could stop being pedantic dickheads and accept that poetic license is used as a matter of course when talking about sports – baseball in particular.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Pedantic dickhead,
heal thyself.
You are such an idiot.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 25, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
D98 calling me
a pedantic dickhead is acceptable, however. I guess if it’s all in the name of DeRo, it’s OK?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 25, 2009 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Al !!!
D98 – “NBF tore the head off my DeRo bobblehead”
NBF – “That’s because you pushed me”
D98 – “You pushed me first”
NBF – “Na uh!”
Al – “If you two don’t stop it I’ll turn this car around right now!”
"If you're scared, go buy a dog" - Stacey King
LOL
And, for the record, I tore a hole in D98’s DeRosa growth-chart poster. I left his bobblehead alone. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 25, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions
there are five stages on the Mark DeRosa growth chart
- Hang in there little guy, you’re just a rookie
-You’re getting big and starting to try out some new positions, good job
-You’re pretty decent, but we still like your brother Michael (Young) better
-You’re larger than life working in the big market, and you’re a media darling
-You’re a five tool uber-utility man, we let you leave the house and can’t wait for you to move back in!
"If you're scared, go buy a dog" - Stacey King
Kosuke
a “pleasant surprise”? He’s hitting .255, and his OBP is only a little better than it was a year ago!
Looking at his OPS, I’d say Kosuke has improved a little from last year. But what were you expecting if this season was a pleasant surprise?
Think back to the end of last season...
…when Kosuke was spinning like a top at the plate and Al was ready to put him on a plane back to Japan. He’s pleasantly surprised me by being a much more consistent player this season.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
his numbers the past two years will be remarkably similar
I guess I have a hard time being pleasantly surprised by a $12 million platoon outfielder without much power or speed — and a .255 batting average (two points under Milton’s, as it happens).
Yes, Kosuke has been more consistent this year and didn’t continue his decline — and he wasn’t the biggest problem on the 2009 Cubs. But I still think he has been a major disappointment, and major disappointments don’t pleasantly surprise me.
I think it comes down to expectations for Fukudome after last season ended.
I simply didn’t expect the Cubs to get much of anything out of Fukudome this season. I think that’s why many consider his 2009 production a pleasant surprise.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Sep 22, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I would advise looking at something besides his batting average.
His OPS, OPS+ and wOBA are all track to finish at improved levels from last year. Granted, he hasn’t been the superstar starter that we all hoped and, briefly, thought he might be. But, as fans, we need to adjust our expectations based on what we see on the field, not on the dollar amount of a guy’s contract.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
He's getting more consistent in his sub-mediocrity
Last year, he was awesome for a couple months, and then abysmal.
This year, he was adequate for more than half the season, and then abysmal.
Net result is better this year. But still not acceptable for a starter for a team that fancies itself a WS contender. And not acceptable for $12M annually.
Two more years, and we can use that money toward an elite MLB player.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I really wouldn't mind shopping Kosuke this offseason
We know what we’re getting – a guy who will get some hot streaks (this summer, start of last year), but also prone to stretches of inconsistency (really tailing off right now). With the Cubs money situation, shopping him wouldn’t be the worst idea, and he might have shown enough this year to generate a decent enough return.
I doubt he gets moved, though.
that and the contract
mean Kosuke won’t be going anywhere.
I'd argue
that Hendry’s pride and the difficulties in finding 2 starters might be bigger factors. The NTC simply means that a player could control where they go, but even then, we’ve seen cases where players eventually acquiesce to a move that they didn’t initially want, if they are pressured long enough. The contract isn’t that bad. Obviously, any contract with that amount, you’d have to eat something.
Again, I don’t expect Kosuke to be moved. I wouldn’t mind it, though.
About $24 million
… over two years, for a guy who has little power, no speed and can’t hit lefties? That’s a bad, bad contract — even if the Cubs are willing to take on some of it to make the trade.
Or, perhaps buy it out at a lower figure....
… and he goes back to Japan.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
so there are ways that Kosuke isn't a Cub next year
I’ll grant that. But the Cubs would have to cover part of the cost of a player no longer on the team, which …
… is the sign of a bad contract!
Are we doing re-runs now?
:)
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 22, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions
How come all Essian does is clap in the dugout?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 22, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Kingman REALLY strikes out too much
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 22, 2009 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions
ask Tommy Lasorda
what he thinks about Kingman?
Why does Moises Alou keep
smelling his hands?
"Was you ever punched in the face five hundred times a night? It stings after a while." ~Rocky Balboa
We need a pinch hitter!
Moises, you’re in . . . .
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 22, 2009 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I think "no speed" is a bit of exaggeration.
Kosuke isn’t blazing fast, but he can move and he’s a smart baserunner.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Agreed.
We saw a whole lot less of “awful” Dome this year, but the “good” Dome we got wasn’t as good as last years’ version. And the awful version has been every bit as bad.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Huh?
Compare his month by month OPS splits from this year to last year. He was every bit as good as he was last year and, as you say, has had fewer bad months.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
He's been better in 2009, for sure.
While the awful Dome was every bit as awful in 2009 as he was in 2008, we had the awful Dome around for a much shorter time.
I see that his April of 2009 was every bit as good as his April of 2008 – I didn’t realize how good his good months have been this year.
I’m still looking forward to the end of this contract, though.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Then you're not looking at the big picture.
Fukudome’s big boost in value this year comes from moving to a more difficult and valuable position.
He’s put up the similar numbers, but you’re looking at those numbers in a vacuum. There aren’t very many good center fielders in baseball – Fukudome’s OPS is good for 10th in the majors among qualified center fielders. I’ll take that, given the alternatives.
The problem there - Fukudome is not a good defensive CF.
He’s a great defensive RF. He’ll probably be a great RF next year.
But he’s a -9.1 centerfielder.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Not that expect that number to change all that much...
…but it’s based on a less than1,000-inning sample, which I understand you need to get a reasonably accurate UZR reading. In any case, yeah, granted, he’s not an ideal choice in centerfield. I’d absolutely like to see Kosuke back in right field where he belongs. But he’s gone out to center and played hard and never made excuses and, as mentioned, improved on his offensive numbers from last year. A lot of guys couldn’t have done that while playing out of position.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
The DeRo Cubs Trade
Well, it’s crying over spilled milk (or beer) now. When you expect to contend, it’s not a good idea to trade away a veteran like DeRosa for prospects. I hope Jeff Stevens and the two other pitchers the Cubs got from Cleveland do well for Chicago to make the trade ultimately look good.
The Cubs were in a “win now” mode. DeRosa had been on playoff teams in Atlanta a couple of stops before coming to the Cubs. That didn’t mean he was anywhere remotely close to being the best player on those Braves teams, but he came from a winning background. The supposedly freed up money by trading DeRosa isn’t being spent wisely on Bradley.
May Jeff Baker continue to play well at second and good luck to Stevens and company! As of right now, the DeRo trade doesn’t look good. It’s water under the bridge now.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Funny how that works.
Posters on this site have been arguing all year that it was self-evident that the DeRosa trade was a good deal — in fact, NBF has argued, very loudly, that it was beneficial to the 2009 Cubs.
Now that the season is more or less over, and it’s become apparent that the DeRosa deal was a bad one, it’s water under the bridge.
Not so, I say - the architect of the DeRosa deal is still running the show, and at some point, people must be held to account.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Pretty much the story
The Cubs don’t work out too well in these deals, but the Cards always come out smelling like roses. It makes you wonder who made the deal with the devil over there.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
If Hendry was not as well liked...
…as he is, he would have been on his way when Dusty left town. IMO, that is when a change should have been made, because you had 3 years of poor roster construction and most of all, no talent worthy of anything from the farm system.
The fact is, Hendry has avoided a boatload of accountability because he is simply a nice guy, and if you notice, the media that is close to the Cubs (and Hendry) have all been tempered in how critical they have been, and most say he should retain his powers as GM. I’ll guarantee, if Hendry wasn’t friendly with the media, they would have been calling for his head after 06, and certainly they would have been applying big time pressure right now.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 24, 2009 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Amen brother
Hendry’s got to go.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
You might find this interesting
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 25, 2009 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Very interesting stuff.
Thanks for posting the link.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Guess who else found it interesting
Hendry will be fired
I see little possible way a brand new owner in the Ricketts family can come in and maintain the status quo. Not after paying nearly $1 billion to buy the team and not after a wretched season like this one. Cubs have a wretched payroll situation and a largely barren farm system, so a “quick fix” is going to be virtually impossible. The best the Cubs can do is ride out some of these awful contracts, start building a legitimate quality farm system and be patient. You don’t need Jim Hendry around in 2010 to carry through with that sort of game plan. That is akin to letting the inmate who created this mess run the asylum for one more year.
Posted by BLou on Fri, 09/25/2009 – 11:08
reply
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 25, 2009 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
any chance you are "bucky"?
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Sep 25, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions
There's a chance . . . .
I don’t know why I didn’t use the same name. Lazy, I guess.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 25, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
It's spot on...
…and Hendry’s frustration is coming out because he knows he put himself in a difficult spot by not addressing obvious concerns early on, and letting them fester.
As I stated yesterday, I think he has done the same thing with Zambrano, and Z’s behaviour of pushing the evelope a little further each year is leading up to another potential big problem.
Also, Hendry’s comments about Harden are a typical example of giving players too much leeway. Why should it be up to Harden if he wants to pitch again this year? The Cubs are not in the business of pleasing each players desires, they should be in the business of doing what is best for the club, period.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I Think
I heard that the Cardinals are pretty intent on hanging on to DeRo arent they??
"That ball left a vapor trail" - Pat Hughes on Derrek Lee's 27th homer of 2009
"I hate to ound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
Yes, they are.
Just thinking about this Cubs roster is making me sad.
After Lilly, Lee and Ramirez, I can’t think of one spot on the entire roster that isn’t facing some pretty serious question marks.
When you have major issues with 22 spots on a $140M 25 man roster, you pretty much have to look to the GM and say “what the heck happened here?”
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Even Theriot Is A Bit Questionable
The Riot hits for a good average but doesn’t have much power. His defense at shortstop is suspect.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
but hes SPEEDY and has a great OBP
and scrappy
The official slogan of your 2009 Chicago Cubs:
Why?
by jesus christos on Sep 22, 2009 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, you can't even really call his OBP great anymore.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
its sarcastically good!
The official slogan of your 2009 Chicago Cubs:
Why?
by jesus christos on Sep 22, 2009 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Mariotti
Is saying the same thing in his column on Fanhouse, he thinks he should go. Also, you are right about the Cards lineup it makes me depressed too. It seems like no matter who they bring in, no matter what their performance was before they got there, as soon as they put on the Cards uni they become All Stars
"That ball left a vapor trail" - Pat Hughes on Derrek Lee's 27th homer of 2009
"I hate to ound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
I'd add Dempster to the list of close to sure things
He’s been very, very good since his return from the toe injury.
Apparently
His daugther has been doing well so that has probably taken some weight off his shoulders. I know he’s a true proffesional but I’m sure that affected him at least a little bit.
"That ball left a vapor trail" - Pat Hughes on Derrek Lee's 27th homer of 2009
"I hate to ound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
definitely
he’s still being paid too much, IMO, but I’m not worried about his individual performance going into next season.
I love Dempster
I’m just not ready to call him a sure thing just yet.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
SOME ONE GOT A BIG HEAD.....
Hendry chased Bradley until he got him . They keyed on the fact that gameboard would produce . When that didn’t happen and the injuries started to pile up….( They raised the white flag ). Before Hendry and Lou knew it well it was too late . Hope 2010 will be better !!
Which is one reason why Hendry may be out of a job in the long run
He’ll get another chance, but I’m not sure the guy deserves it. For all the winning baseball, there have been no pennants and, most importantly, no World Series titles. I don’t know what approach will eventually work for the Cubs, but the current model isn’t working.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I have been saying the same thing...
…for a while now, and next year will clearly be based on a lot of hope, that the stars can align properly.
Don’t count on Rickett’s coming in and trying to throw money at these problems either. Without adding one piece next year, it will already cost Ricketts money just to unload the garbage that has to be sent on it’s way.
The thing about it is this, you could see this coming for those that paid attention. The Cubs virtually bought two division championships in a weak division, by acquiring a lot of talent with the checkbook. The problem is, you have a mixture of aging players who either struggle to play with any consistency, are becoming injury prone, are emotionally immature or simply don’t fit well together.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
This is EXACTLY why I would build my team around the following guys
Derrek Lee
Ted Lilly
Mark DeRosa
…that have been part of recent Cubs teams:
What do all of these guys have in common? They’re team players…!
I can’t spell it any other way that no matter what team sport you play at no matter what age you play it, when you have team players on your side, you will be successful.
Just win the next game...!
That's kind of a leap
I guess it’s all about how you define “successful,” but consider the careers of those three guys. Lee was an important contributor on a WS champion with the Marlins, he played on the disastrous 2004 Cubs, the disappointing 2005 Cubs and the miserable 2006 Cubs (granted, he was hurt) before being a contributor to two division titles.
Before 2006, DeRosa had never had more than 309 at-bats in a season. He was on some good Atlanta teams, but he wasn’t a key contributor to them. The 2006 Rangers didn’t contend.
Lilly had never won more than 15 games in a season before 2006. I know wins aren’t the only measure to look at, but aside from the 2003 A’s, Lilly wasn’t a key component for a contending team. His beat years before the Cubs were with Toronto, who were always following the Yankees and Red Sox.
So these three guys — who I’ll agree are team guys and very good players — have one championship between them and the two division titles with the Cubs. Their presence — or being on their team’s side, as you put it — hasn’t guaranteed even post-season appearances for their teams. That’s how I would measure success.
You're tying the lack of championships to just those players?
Ah, forget all the other players on those teams; that doesn’t matter. D-Lee’s play was not a contributing factor to the ‘04-’06 team issues. What part of DeRo’s ‘07-’08 contributions to the Cubs did you miss? DeRo and D-Lee were about the only guys who got a few hits in the Dodger NLDS fiasco. Lilly can be argued as the best Cubs starter from ‘07-’09.
It’s nowhere near a leap. I spoke of recent CUBS teams. You name me 3 better guys that were on recent Cubs teams that would be better team leaders. Who else? Woody, the perennial DL guy?
I’m not saying any/all of these 3 guys were/are MVP’s or Cy Young winners, just guys you can count on to be team leaders. You start a roster with leaders, not try to fit them in later.
Just win the next game...!
You don't "build a team" around them.
But they are all leaders. Every team needs them.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's true, but I'm not sure DeRo is enough of a leader to justify bringing him back.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Agreed. He was enough of a leader to keep, but
at 35, will cost a B level pick, etc., the team is better served finding similar qualities in players with a longer career life span.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
We'll see how the Cubs maneauver...
this off season. If the Cubs are left without lineup / defencive flexibility coming out of ST 2010, just like in 2009, then I’ll say again, letting a flexible guy like DeRo go, hurt the roster.
If they can fill the roster with greater flexibility, then fine. But until then, Hendry has his work cut out for himself.
Just win the next game...!
Jeff Baker can likely do everything DeRo did.
And, in Andres Blanco, the Cubs have a bona fide defenisve specialist to back up middle infield. I definitely agree that the lack of depth coming out of a spring training this year was a huge problem that really hurt the team. But it shouldn’t be a problem next year (I think).
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Hope you're right
I’d too like to think those 2 guys can fill in admirably. If not, Hendry will have to come up with a good/better alternative.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Sep 24, 2009 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Dont you all know
The hero worship of DeRosa has gotten really out of hand. You’re all right, if we had him we;d be celebrating the Cubs winning their 117th game tonight breaking the all time single season victory record set by the 06 Cubs. Not only that but he would have inspired the Bears to go 2-0, and the Blackhawks would have won last years Stanley Cup and the Bulls last years NBA title.
I liked Mark a lot don’t get me wrong but the cannonization of him in Chicago is ridiculous. I called my priest yesterday. He hasn’t been made a saint yet.
I had to delete my twitter account. But you can still find me at fanfiction.net under puckish prosecutor.
It was also frankly embarassing
It was also frankly embarassing to have DeRosa get greeted with twice as much enthusiasm as Kerry Wood for the first game of the Cleveland series.
Also remember the media loved him so put him in the best light possible because he was a moth to the camera light always ready with a quote for them.
I’m now looking at my world series tshirts from the ones he won with the Cubs. Oops none.
I had to delete my twitter account. But you can still find me at fanfiction.net under puckish prosecutor.
by puckishcubsfan on Sep 22, 2009 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Your logic and sentiment are ridiculous.
1. This strawman argument that anyone is saying that DeRosa would have saved the season is stupid and tired.
2. Do you wonder why Kerry Wood didn’t get greeted with the same enthusiasm?
Because it was a save situation AGAINST the Cubs.
3. I assume that you take the same disrespectful attitude toward all former Cubs. “I’m looking at my WS T-shirts, (Ryno, Santo, Banks, whoever), WHOOPS NONE LOL.”
Do better.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
re 1: If people aren't saying DeRo would have saved the season...
…then why the hell are we STILL talking about him???
re 2: Okay fine. So people didn’t greet Kerry with the same enthusiasm bc he was pitching in a save situation. How is that different from DeRo hitting AGAINST the Cubs? Wasn’t DeRo trying to win the game for his team? Clearly he was. So how are the two any different?
re 3: This is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You just put Mark Thomas DeRosa up there with the Cubs greats like Ryne, Santo, and Banks. This is the crux of the matter. This will probably be the last thing I will say on this topic, because clearly if you are putting him up there with them, there isn’t much I can say to change your mind.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
We're still talking about him, because the Cubs are talking about him.
1. When Ryan Theriot talks about how he just chatted with Mark DeRosa about how much the team misses him and vice versa, well, that’s a story.
2. Cheering before Mark DeRosa’s first AB, in the early innings of a game, is completely different than cheering Kerry Wood as he tries to slam the door on the Cubs in the 9th. Which, by the way, the Cubs fans actually did.
3. That is an insane and tortured reading of what I wrote. I am not equating DeRosa to Hall of Famers. I am noting that no living former Cub can point to a WS title, and as such, CTSB100’s threshold of “how many titles did you win us” is ridiculous.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
The DeRo bromance many here seem to have
ran its course months ago. Let it go, he’s a Cardinal now for crissakes.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 23, 2009 7:59 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't know why people don't get this
That is an insane and tortured reading of what I wrote. I am not equating DeRosa to Hall of Famers. I am noting that no living former Cub can point to a WS title, and as such, CTSB100’s threshold of "how many titles did you win us" is ridiculous.
People automatically see a comparison as equating and fly off the handle. cubswynn isn’t the first nor last to do that . . . but you are correct.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 23, 2009 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Then why did DeRosa
get another standing O when he came to bat with guys on base in a close game?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 24, 2009 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Thank you.
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills with all this DeRo love affair. Everyone wants to figure out some magic secret regarding what went wrong in ’09.
Here ya go DeRomantics….Injuries+poor managing+terrible offseason moves (yes you can add in DeRo here)= 80 win season. Not just the loss of DeRo!!!
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
stop making sense
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 23, 2009 7:59 AM CDT up reply actions
That was a great movie!
Also saw de Romantics at the Aragon back in the day. They did a great concert opening for Adam Ant. 
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
I remember that show
They joined Adam on stage for the encore, “Desperate But Not Serious.” Gee, that title sounds kind of like the Cubs’ 2009 season.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 24, 2009 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't remember that one, but I do
remember that the Romantics did a version of “What I Like About You” that must have lasted about 15 minutes and thinking “what the hec?” when Adam submerged himself in a tank of water.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
When you don't have many songs in the first place
You’ve got to play your one-trick ponies as much as you can.
I saw Greg Kihn back in the day and he played “Jeopardy” three times.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 25, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions
did you actually read my post.......
or did you just see the words “love” and “DeRosa” in the title and fly off the handle?
Anyone with half a brain knows that the ‘09 Cubs with or without DeRosa are still Hot Garbage. But I think one could honestly believe that this team, with some (relatively) small additions and subtractions, can contend in ’09 (again see post you probably didn’t read).
I posted because I absolutely could not believe DeRo still wants to be a Cub given the current situation he is in (perfect) and the current train wreck he was traded from. To me, that is absolutely noteworthy, and could be appreciated by the deromantic and the non-deromantic alike.
"If you're scared, go buy a dog" - Stacey King
Wow hackerar (whoever you are)...
…talk about flying off the handle. I wasn’t specifically responding to anything you said, rather the other posters on this thread.
Chill. Out.
In fact, if you read my posts above you’ll see that we are actually arguing the exact same point.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
a comment on a generalization
If you go back and look at the comments, there aren’t alot of different people who are blindly displaying an illogical DeRosa love affair, and because there aren’t alot of people doing so, I took your comment as directed toward anyone talking postitively about bringing DeRo back.
Wow hackerar (whoever you are)…
and what does that mean? This is an internet blog, no one knows who any one is, so what would prompt you to say “whoever you are”, I don’t know who anyone on here is besides a cub fan dropping opinions on a cub blog.
And you don’t have to tell me to chill out, you can’t tell what someone’s mood is when typing something (besides usage of the caps lock), I was just asking a question.
"If you're scared, go buy a dog" - Stacey King
Now that damage is done re DeRosa
Let’s hope Stevens, Gaub & Archer provide us with some small reason to say we got something out of the trade.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Sep 22, 2009 9:48 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
im not sure...
The official slogan of your 2009 Chicago Cubs:
Why?
by jesus christos on Sep 24, 2009 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions
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