Is Lou singing a new "lefty/righty" tune?
by Zeke on Sep 25, 2009 8:02 AM CDT
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PrintIs Lou Pinella singing a new tune? Has he seen the light that "getting more lefthanded" doesn't necessarily make your team better? Here's a quote from today's ST responding to what type of big stick hitter the Cubs need for the middle of the order in 2010.
Pinella: ''I don't care if he hits between his legs,'' manager Lou Piniella said before Jeff Baker's two-run home run with two outs in the ninth inning Thursday helped the Cubs stave off elimination from the National League Central race with a 3-2 victory against the San Francisco Giants. ''Right-handed, left-handed, switch hitter, it doesn't really matter.''
Thoughts?
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It's about time
The lineup that was too right handed only let the NL in wins in 2008. Remove Manny’s juicing and you have a completely different postseason.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Sep 25, 2009 8:06 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
It also led the NL in runs scored.
They fixed something that wasn’t broke. Now it’s broke, so let’s hope they fix it right this time.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
and two playoff series in a row
the awesome hitting crashed and burned, so maybe something was broken afterall. Hendry was correct to try and make changes, however, if you want to argue that he did not make the right changes, I would agree.
As for DeRo, maybe keeping him would have kept the Cubs in the race, but I doubt it would have helped them overtake the Cards for the Central title. It might have kept the Cubs in the hunt for a wild card, but even that is a bit of a stretch. But for the DeRomantics, it all begins and ends with their boy.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 25, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
No, nothing was broken.
The team just went cold at the worst possible time.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
when the same thing happens two years in a row
you need to rethink your situation. Doing the same thing hoping for a different result is foolish. Hendry was right to make changes, he just made the wrong changes.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 25, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
This.
He didn’t even necessarily make the wrong changes, they just didn’t work out.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 25, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Saying Milton Bradley didn't work out is the understatement of the year
Jim did make the wrong changes, starting with that guy.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
The Cubs could have used a little "nastiness"
Unfortunately, Bradley provided far much more of that than necessary, at the detriment of anything else.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 25, 2009 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree...
…that is was the right thing to do to try and make the club a bit more “scouting report” proof after 07 and 08, but the wrong decisions were made.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
thats precisely why Lou and Jimbo should be shown the door
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Manny's juicing
prevented the Cubs from scoring in last years NLDS how exactly?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 25, 2009 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Because Zambrano was taken out early from one of those 6 games.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 25, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Do the Dodgers even get to the postseason without Manny on the juice?
Are you kidding me? I thought this was an easy connection to make. Since logic has failed you, let’s follow my thought process to my conclusion.
1. Manny decides that he shouldn’t juice, so his 2008 numbers drop off. It’s just Manny being Manny and he can try to whine his way out of his contract, but there are no takers.
2. Because there is no steroid shooting Manny Ramirez in the Dodgers lineup, the Diamondbacks win the West.
The Cubs might have had a better chance against the Diamondbacks in the playoffs. Now can we return to our regularly scheduled program or do I need to break this down even further?
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
that this all makes sense to you is
a little disturbing. As for breaking it down further, no need, I get what you are saying, I just think it is mental jibberish.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 28, 2009 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I have come to the conclusion Lou
is just blathering to give writers and bloggers something to discuss.
Just win the next game...!
to be fair to Lou here..
Hindsight is 20-20.
We were coming off our second consecutive year of postseasn-3 and out last October, when again our postseason offense went anemic. At that point, it made COMPLETE sense to get this team more ‘balanced’/lefthanded.
That is NOT to say just adding a lefty or two would’ve automatically revamped the postseason offense, however, it most CERTAINLY WOULD force opponents managers to waste much more pitching staff/other position players, which would’ve/could’ve changed the complexion of each game/series.
While it appears Lou got what he wanted, I’m not sure Lou really ‘got’ what he wanted last offseason. What he got was ‘the best available Lefty’ to fill the coveted role-which certainly did not work out . Last postseason turned into a signing frenzy of anyone who could be a lefty to fill the bench and that ‘much needed role’, but in fact, did not make us any better.
FWIW, I agree with Lou’s premise of needing more balance here. I also don’t believe Lou is serious at all (going into his final managerial year) that he’ll take ‘anyone’ (in reference to his between the legs analagy). Obviously, if the Matt Holiday’s of the world are available, that trumps the need for balance. All in all, however, he knows that this team will be somewhat restricted this offseason, and that still building a balanced team will be in the best interest. Being more Lefthanded is a good thing, and one that still should be persued, but I suspect that this offseason will be much more judicious in getting or bringing up those players who will ‘balance’ this team regardless of which side of the plate they stand. We’ll be more balanced when we have a team of all-hustle, bunting, running, and a little more power .
The thing was, the Cubs faced the 1 team in the postseason last year who could do that.
Both Philadelphia and Milwaukee would have started LHPs; if the Cubs had faced either team, it would have mitigated all of the talk.
Unfortunately, the Cubs overreacted to what happened over 3 games in October.
In general, I agree with balancing a lineup. But it’s not mandatory – the ’08 Cubs and ’09 Cardinals (just to pick a few) have shown you can dominate a league with an unbalanced lineup.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on Sep 25, 2009 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Starting a LHP (as Mil and Phil) is one thing, but forcing a mgr's hand later in the game is another
Phlly and MIL woud;ve started the LHP b/c they were superstars. however, from there on out, neither mgr would’ve needed to adjust much in their bullpens at all, nor would they’ve needed to waste a Pinch runner here/pinch hitter there etc… having balance in the lineup will only help in the later innings.
yes the 08 Cubs dominated… it was fun… it was so much fun, I don’t care if they ever do it again. I’d rather them build a team that will take us to a higher calling.
Again, that is not to guarantee that a mixed RH/LH lineup will automatically do that. However, the results in the 07 and 08 playoffs were the SAME. i.e. their offense, which had been pretty consistent during the regular season, decided not to show up. That is something that you should try to fix when you see it twice…
Did they overreact? possibly, but how? getting rid of DeRosa to shed salary to get that LH did NOT seem that bad of a move at the time. you had a guy who appeared, at least, to be coming off a career year-which perhaps they could’ve gotten more for. however, the other moves were really not that drastic or ‘overreacted’: Besides DeRosa, on obvious missed teammate, Edmonds is out of the league, Pie is nowwhere to be found, Wood, Howry both appear to be done, ….who else am I missing? -just a point to show that they really did not appear to overreact to those 3 games in October.
I think we all agree on getting a more balanced lineup regardless.
Figgins would look great at 2B and may make us all forget about DeRosa…
by LuisSalazar on Sep 25, 2009 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't disagree about trying to get left-handed
in principle, it’s a smart decision. They Cubs just happened to get the wrong one.
Yes, the offense struggled twice in the postseason – both RHPs and LHPs (Doug Davis) shut them down. I think the struggles were more due to pressing than to seeing only RHPs.
Also, a big part of postseason play is in advanced scouting. I think this is an area the Cubs must improve and add money to – I have a feeling both Arizona and LA scouted the hell out of the Cubs and executed those plans masterfully.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on Sep 25, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Wow...
With you till that last part. The notion of Chone Figgins as a Cubs is literally making me ill. Hold on…give me a moment to sit down, and steady myself.
Okay, besides the fact that he’s got the hands of bricklayer, and is going to actually be looking for a real paycheck this off-season, is the problem that he’ll be a 32 year old player next season, entering his decline phase as a guy who’s game is almost totally reliant on speed. I’ll let you in on a secret; legs go first.
Now, if he finds himself shut out in the market, a la Orlando Hudson, then I say cool. Bring him in for 2010. But a long-term deal is a complete non-starter for a player who’s essentially Juan Pierre as an infielder. Interestingly enough, not only are they actually best friends, but I’d be willing to bet whomever signs him — assuming it’s a multi-year deal — will regret it as quickly as the Dodgers did signing Pierre.
by Damen Jackson on Sep 25, 2009 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
perhaps I should've left Figgins out of this discussion
however, since it is being discussed, who better to fill in at leadoff and fill a potential role at 2b at this time? the ‘power/RBI’ Lou is looking for is almost certain to fill the RF hole vacated by Bradley.
IF this team is going to win now, a leadoff hitter-WITH SPEED- is what this team will need first. I’m not really seeing anyone from within the organization to do such, unless you trust Dome-who certainly is not a blaze.
most of the crux-our base- of this team are >32….that’s not to defend signing another one, however, the fact of the matter is that 32 is not that old, the Cubs will not and should not sign him to a deal any greater that 3 yrs (and if he does demand more, he’s playing for someone else), there is really no legit basis for suggesting Figgins legs to ‘go first’ over the next few yrs, and our options are downright scary otherwise.
I would guess, as I assume most would, the Cubs will still put forth every effort to fill the obivous holes to win immediately, while all of these huge contracts are hamstringing the team otherwise. Thus, Figgins would seem to fit the mold.
by LuisSalazar on Sep 25, 2009 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions
If it has to be LH/2B
then both Figgins and Orlando Hudson are options. And if the Cubs want to move Bradley, Luis Castillo is an option, too.
I’d also throw out Felipe Lopez as another name to watch.
However, I think going into ST with Jeff Baker penciled in to start isn’t a bad option, either, despite him hitting right-handed.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on Sep 25, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
sorry, didn't realize Hudson was available.....
however, he’s the same age, brings almost the same as Figgins without the speed, and also likely to be cashing in on a multiyear deal this offseason.
I like what Ive seen in Baker, but am not convinced he’s the long term answer-certainly not the leadoff hitter.
by LuisSalazar on Sep 25, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Baker's no lead off hitter, I agree
The Cubs don’t have a true lead-off hitter as it stands, but I’m not sure they have to have the prototypical lead-off man. Fukudome would be fine, as far as I’m concerned.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on Sep 25, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
It is extremely unlikely that...
Orlando Hudson will see a multi-year deal. Wrong market, wrong skill set, and wrong age. He has the misfortune of being good at a bit of everything, and great at nothing, as I’ve been hearing that even his defense has declined a touch.
As a lefty though, a still solid defender, and good clubhouse guy, the Cubs could do worse.
by Damen Jackson on Sep 25, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Personally,
I’d prefer not to get into my personal preferences until after the season.
However, there are other options, and to be candid, the notion that the Cubs require a lead-off man with blazing speed is as flawed as their previous lefty fascination. And 32 is quite old when your game is about speed. Legging out infield hits, slap singles, stolen bases.
Seriously, you need only look out in left field to see what happens when you pay guys in large part for what they bring with their legs, and how quickly these things change.
by Damen Jackson on Sep 25, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed about Figgins
he is not the answer to the Cubs’ leadoff problems and he sure isn’t much of a 2B anymore. They would be better off with Baker at 2B.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 25, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
News flash...
…I highly doubt Rickett’s will spend the money for a Figgins or any other FA that cost considerable dollars.
Ricketts will already be increasing payroll to get rid of Bradley, and spending big money on debt service.
I would be very surprised if you saw significant changes on the 2010 roster.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
You may not need them.
A healthy Soriano and Ramirez, an in-shape Soto, and whoever they get to replace Bradley, should provide enough offense.
It’s entirely possible that Hendry will be able to swap bad contracts to get rid of Bradley.
The debt service, while onerous, should be a separate item from player payroll.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'm fully convinced this team could improve just by removing Bradley
How much? We’ll never really know. I’m not making him the scapegoat, but he’s an example of how you can get an addition by subtraction.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
And getting ManRam?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 28, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions
debt service...
…may be seperate than payroll, but it will add signficantly to the organizations yearly expenses and impact how they can spend money in other areas.
Paying your mortgage is a seperate item from buying groceries, but if you don’t have a mortgage, you can spend that much more on other things.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Soriano cannot nor should not be the example for everyone over 32.
I’m also not convinced he was brought here primarily for his speed….but regardless….
Look, we both absolutely agree that the younger a player is, the less likely they are to break down, decline etc…that’s a given. However, we have all seen plenty more players, who take care of themselves, continue to be productive, quick, and goodbaserunners for a long time. I have never said they need a leadoff man with blazing speed, though that would be nice, but yes, they do need a leadoff man with speed, a good OBP, and is smart on the basepaths-shoot, even Pujols almost fits that mold, and he certainly isn’t ‘blazing’. Who the Cubs have inserted in that spot over the last few years have been none of the above-a huge problem.
Thus, while I’d love to see a young Reyes, H Ramirez, etc.. available, I’m not seeing it on the market or within our farm system (at least not ready to go). THUS, in the situation we are in now, to win now with these contracts, Figgins would (again only on paper) match up pretty close with anything that appears to be available.
I am, and always have been, intersted in fielding a team of 22-30 yr olds all the time, but it just isn’t going to happen right now, and to say a player is a poor choice simply for the fact that they were born in 1978 is silly.
by LuisSalazar on Sep 25, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
You're making an extremely disingenious argument...
as I never said a player over 32 is a poor choice. I said overpaying and extending a multi-year offer to one whose game is heavily reliant on speed is. That’s a very distinct difference.
Alfonso Soriano was never regarded as a 100 million dollar player until he 1) was moved to the outfield, where his defense was now viewed as acceptable, and 2) moved to lead-off, and given the green light often from Frank Robinson. In other words, he basically went from Dan Uggla to one of the top paid talents in the game by remaking himself into a 40/40 lead-off man. He’d always had power, but the promise of at least 30/30 seasons for the foreseeable future was what got him paid.
Three years ago, I could have gotten behind Figgins, and did publicly, even as Angels fans, and even some baseball folks told me I was nuts. Now, I’ll pass. I’d rather give the money to Luis Castillo. And that’s saying a lot.
by Damen Jackson on Sep 25, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions
You're circling here.
not trying to make disingenious argument. I’m only countering the arguements you’ve made. Just as you didn’t say a player over 32 is poor choice, I have not adovcated overpaying/overextending a crazy deal to Figgins.
We’ll simply agree to disagree that Figgins is/isnt a reasonable fit here. I just don’t agree that everyone who is fast >32 is a poor choice, is absollutely declining, or the fact that Soriano represents every >32 y/o speedster, which is what was implied 2 posts up. thus the argument.
I’ve seen plenty of athletes first hand in that situation who actually do perform to reasonable capabilities.
Again, I just look at the alternatives here. Castillo is an option, but certainly has show flashes of decline, is 2-3 yrs older etc….
The story of this franchise.
Unfortunately, the Cubs overreacted to what happened over 3 games in October
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 25, 2009 11:27 AM CDT reply actions
Well, at least they didn't reinstitute the old "College of Coaches"...
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
He says this about the LINEUP
but what about his in game managing ? Does he pull Jake Fox who goes 3-3 in the 8th and pinch hit Fonty because
a lefty is pitching ? Does Sean Marshall get to pitch to more than one batter if the batter is not a lefty ? I will believe
Lou has "seen " the light when he stops making 10 moves a game based on lefty/righty match ups.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
Right Doggie Stalker
One of the best (and most clutch players) in 2008 (Reed Johnson) never gets off the bench in last years playoff series against the Dodgers. Not once. Because of the lefty/righty thing.
Stupid.
Tough to be a clutch hitter
when you are on the DL so much.
Next to Mark DeRosa, Reed Johnson has to be the most overrated Cub player of recent vintage.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 28, 2009 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Who is this Magical Hitter?
And what is this “RBI bat” which he supposedly, of his own ability, wields?
Seriously, if you have Lee-Ramirez-Soriano hitting 3-4-5, where does the “RBI” guy hit? Furthermore, who on the free agent market could be this guy? The more I look at the market, the more I am convinced that we won’t be able to put a better team on the field next year by signing a big free agent or trading anyone besides Bradley (which would be addition by subtraction).
We certainly can’t sign any of the sexy “RBI” guys on the market. Where would Bay or Holliday play? Holliday could probably pass in right (although he wouldn’t improve us at all defensively). Bay, not a chance. Jermain Dye? Maybe on a one or two year deal, but the defense again would suffer. And if this magical RBI machine turns out to be Xavier Nady…
So, I’ll ask the million dollar question, what good is the magical “RBI bat” without the men on base ahead of him? The problem the cubs had with runs for most of the year was Soriano and his .303 OBP batting lead off.
We have three positions to work with (assuming we can dump Bradley): CF, RF, and 2B.
Ideally, we would find a high OBP center fielder to push Fukudome back to right. For the life of me, I don’t know who that could be. No one in free agency unless we want to take a one year flyer on Mike Cameron (not exactly high OBP but decent). Of course, why not stick with Reed Johnson/Fukudome in CF?
If there were a guy to go after via trade, how about Rajai Davis? Not sure how heavily he factors into Oakland’s rebuilding plans. He’ll be 29 next year, but he’s certainly been a spark plug for the last 2 months. We’ve dealt with Beane before, maybe we could send Fox over there… not sure we have much to tempt the A’s with though. Same thing with Nyjer Morgan.
Even if we push Fukudome back to RF, we have to match him with a right handed bat. He’s just useless against lefties. Can we put Fox in right against lefties? Maybe that works out, I kind of doubt it. I’d rather trade him to an AL team. One other guy who is intriguing, but I don’t think we would want playing RF is Conor Jackson (if the D’Backs nontender him). His bat would look nice in the 2 hole, and he could back up 3B and 1B.
The other option is to find a high OBP second baseman. Which brings us back to Figgins or possibly Iwamura. The bonus with Figgins is he can fill in at 2B, CF or RF. Iwamura is a lefty who hits lefties better than righties, and I’m not sure he’s much of an improvement in the 1 or 2 spot than Fukudome or Theriot.
Bottom line is, get some guys on base at the top of the order, and Lee/Ramirez/Soriano should be able to drive them in.
The Cubs tried to get Rajai Davis from Oakland this year.
They may try again.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'd love those stolen bases....
Among the other things he brings to the table.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Sep 25, 2009 11:56 PM CDT up reply actions
i remember i was watching an a's angels game
the angels pitcher made an erratic pickoff throw and davis scored from first
The official slogan of your 2009 Chicago Cubs:
Why?
by jesus christos on Sep 26, 2009 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions
You'd love his route-running.
He may have improved it (I assume he did, as he’s starting now), but he used to need a map to find his way around CF back in Triple-A. His speed covered some of those deficiencies.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
left-right
blah blah blah. the players got scared in the postseaason and choked. when they won 97 games you never heard much about being too right handed.
If the Cubs are open to a RH #5 hitter
that opens a lot more doors in the off-season. But there will still be a lot of other factors to work out before we even get to that.
"Jim is a smart man. He knows what he has to do. He knows what went wrong. I'm pretty sure he's going to fix it." - Aramis Ramirez on one of the best GMs in the game.
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