Harden as a Closer?
Just curious to see what everyone's thoughts are on bringing Harden back as a closer? (assuming he'd agree to it)
Harden's repertoire of pitches is basically fastball/change-up. Given that he's a two-pitch pitcher I would think that he would be better suited as a closer than a starter. Not to mention, given his history of injuries, this might be a great way for him to lessen the wear and tear on his shoulder and extend his career. I'd be interested to hear everyone's thoughts on this.
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73 comments
Comments
I'm not sure Harden is coming back
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Sep 28, 2009 10:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I read that . . .
I don’t think it’s happening, but I wonder if Hendry has thought about approaching him about it. In that article, he says he wants to come back. And the article states that the reason the Cubs aren’t thinking about him is because they feel they have enough starting pitching . . . Well if that’s the case, than I think this idea could work.
Again, I don’t have any delusions of grandeur that this will happen. I’m just curious to see what people think of it as an idea.
by TheRiot02 on Sep 28, 2009 10:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I always thought you could never have enough starting pitching?
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
by IowaCubs- on Sep 28, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can never have too much good stuff, according to AM/PM
`
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 28, 2009 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carlos Marmol is our closer...
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Sep 28, 2009 10:27 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Right.
And he has a devastating slider, which Harden doesn’t.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 28, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a guy...
… up the road in Milwaukee who has made a pretty good living as a closer throwing change-ups and fastballs. Harden could be similar, if he wanted to be.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
by Ross on Sep 28, 2009 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harden's changeup is probably just as good
as far as getting swings and misses. But Marmol is our closer, no need to change that
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
by nji232 on Sep 28, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...
I think Marmol has shown down the stretch that he can handle the job. I just wish they would have gone that direction back in March.
by NashCub on Sep 28, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Spring Training
found Gregg running off nine straight saves, I believe…as Marmol lost time at the WBC.
When Marmol returned, he didn’t pitch well. At the time, the decision to go with Gregg — seemed obvious.
Don’t blame Lou for what seemed to be the correct choice, at the time. But, it’s on Lou for staying with Gregg way too long.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Sep 28, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure he did stay with him way too long, SDSJM
I think Gregg was demoted at just the right time.
Look how long the Phillies stuck with Lidge after it was obvious he didn’t have it this year.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 28, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno.
After the Marlins series, that might have been a better time, before he blew the game in San Diego.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 28, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's been my biggest beef with Lou . . .
Mind you I’m not on the “Fire Lou” bandwagon by any stretch. But I think he does stick with his guys to a fault. I agree with Al and that the Marlins series should have been his last as a closer. Soriano leading off is another example of Lou sticking with his guys too long . . .
by TheRiot02 on Sep 28, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps
but that was basically, what, about a week’s difference?
I don’t blame Gregg for blowing the finale of that series. He threw 30-plus pitches, IIRC, the night before, and he shouldn’t have been in the game in the first place. After the San Diego blowup, I thought a change was necessary.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 28, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two weeks worth.
And maybe if the Cubs don’t lose that game in SD, they have a better road trip.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 28, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe.
But the old saw about “momentum being that day’s starting pitcher” also comes into play.
I’m too lazy to look it up, but how was Gregg in save opps. from the last game of the Marlins series to the first game of the Padres series?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 28, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Including the last TWO games of the Marlins series....
… both of which were blown saves (even though they won the first of the two), he had one save and one other loss (the 8/11 Philly game that Marmol blew), and two saves, before the blowup in SD.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 28, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree the idea is sound with his arsenal, however, there
has been all sorts of discussion that Harden requires the extended warmup of a starter. I’ve also seen comments that his injury issues aren’t pitch count related like Kerry Wood’s are/were, but that Harden needs the days off between use.
With Marmol coming around, not sure Harden as closer makes sense financially.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Sep 28, 2009 10:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Marmol has the stuff to be a closer . . .
not sure he has the head (or control) for it. He’s done well down the stretch but I think a lot of the stress has been off due to the Cubs being out of contention. However, I agree that if Hendry believes in Marmol as the closer, than this idea doesn’t make any sense. However, if we’re going to be in the market for a closer anyway, I think it might merit some consideration.
But, if it’s true about him needing extended warm-up, then again, not going to work . . .
by TheRiot02 on Sep 28, 2009 10:51 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
. . . and Trevor Hoffman had a heck of a career as a closer
w/o a devastating slider . . .
by TheRiot02 on Sep 28, 2009 10:52 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
never gonna happen
because closers do not get paid what starters get paid. This is the year the Harden has been waiting for his entire career—Free Agency. He would never agree to it.
by socalbob on Sep 28, 2009 11:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It'll be interesting
to see if anyone will give him the “4year/$40mm” type contract that top line starters seem to be getting these days given his injury history . . .
by TheRiot02 on Sep 28, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My predicition...
- Harden will sign elsewhere at 4Y/40M
- He will get hurt sometime in late ’10, early ’11
- He will come back as a reliever, ala John Smoltz in ’12
- He will be lights out as a reliever
- Some Cub fans will criticize Jim Hendry for not keeping him.
As a starter, Harden is one of those guys who is just good enough to get you fired.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
by Ross on Sep 28, 2009 11:30 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I predict Harden will have a tough time getting a contract that long.
A lot of free agents are going to be very surprised by the low offers this year — primarily due to economic conditions.
Harden had a mediocre year. If I were his agent I’d advise him to take a one-year deal — maybe even in arb with the Cubs — and go to free agency again a year from now, when the economy may have improved and he will likely be coming off a better year.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 28, 2009 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
which is why if they can keep him with a 2yr/$18mm deal and try him at closer, I think it would be an interesting idea. And Marmol can always fill in on days when Harden needs a rest . . .
by TheRiot02 on Sep 28, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way
For a $9 Mil closer, I want him to pitch everyday. If Harden has to be babied as a closer and I expect that he would, he is not worth that kind of money. Cubs should go with Marmol as closer and spend the money elsewhere. If he can’t handle it then look for a mid-season upgrade.
by rlpete on Sep 28, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I said...
… I wouldn’t give Harden a multiyear deal right now. One year. If the Cubs did this through offering arb, I’d consider giving him an extension during the season, if he stays healthy and pitches well.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 28, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll know soon enough whether
the Cubs agree with you. If Hendry believes Harden will get that kind of offer, they’ll offer arbitration.
If the Cubs are concerned Harden may accept arbitration, they won’t offer.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Sep 28, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Limits on What You Would Give Harden
I could go for the Cubs giving Harden a 2-year/$12 million (grand total) contract. It’s extremely doubtful Harden would sign for that small a dollar amount. Yeah, I know $12 million isn’t a small dollar amount to me. Quite frankly, Harden is too big an injury risk for the Cubs to give him any more money than that and to sign him for longer than 2 years.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Sep 28, 2009 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he makes $7 Million this season
I don’t see why he would seign for less than what he makes this season. Arbitration alone will get him $8 to $9 Million. That is just not realistic.
by socalbob on Sep 28, 2009 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
From what I've heard/read, many don't think
the Cubs will offer arbitration.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Sep 28, 2009 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that would be a mistake
arbitration only nets 1 year and if he walks, you get the compensatory picks. I would have a problem with that decision.
I hadn’t heard that. Do you have any articles you could link?
by socalbob on Sep 28, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is too much obsession over draft picks
It was the same thing last season with Howry and others.
In general, teams do not offer arbitration to players that they really don’t want. If the Cubs offer Harden arbitration, it is because they want and can afford him. I don’t expect they will offer arbitration just to gain a few more picks.
by rlpete on Sep 28, 2009 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
given the state of our system
don’t you feel we could use extra picks? I do.
Arbitration is offered to retain the player, no question. If he walks, getting picks softens the blow, so to speak.
by socalbob on Sep 28, 2009 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arbitration is used to retain players as you said
It is rare though for teams to offer arbitration to players who they really don’t want. If Hendry can’t afford to pay Harden $10 Mil, he won’t offer arbitration just to gain picks.
This was the same argument last season with Howry. Everyone wanted the Cubs to offer Howry arbitration fully expecting that he wouldn’t accept it. Well the Cubs didn’t and he signed for a deal less than he would have gotten in arbitration if offered.
by rlpete on Sep 29, 2009 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I linked them all Friday when this was first discussed.
Part of the commentary was from Daily Herald, the Sun Times, Tribune, and a podcast on 670am where the talking heads interviewed Dave van Dyke of the Trib.
There were numerous points – Harden is fragile. The Cubs have financial constraints where committing $10M to a part time pitcher is too much of a luxury. The team is tired of his asking out.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Sep 29, 2009 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could see the Sawx picking him up
The sun will shine in '69
by gaclaudy on Sep 28, 2009 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whats so good about a guy who cant go 6 innings?
Hes an incredible talent for sure, but hes far too inefficient and injury prone to rely on, especially at that cost
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Sep 28, 2009 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The good is he can be utterly dominating when he's on his game.
Partner him up with a long man and the 5 IP thing isn’t as big of a deal.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 29, 2009 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right but his inefficiency and his fragility are a dangerous combo
he racks up some pretty high pitch counts in limited innings, which is just a disaster waiting to happen given his history.
So given that unreliability plus the added strain he adds to a bullpen, its pretty understandable why theyd consider letting him walk.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Sep 29, 2009 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, the health thing will always be a concern...
…though he did make 26 starts this season – WAY more than most predicted. And the long man approach really doesn’t put that much of a strain on the pen because it’s planned going into the game. Harden goes five, the long man goes two – suddenly you’re in the eighth inning. Even if Harden goes only four, the long man can still get you to the seventh.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 29, 2009 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marmol has done fine as closer
And compared to the FA market, Marmol is basically free.
by ak123 on Sep 28, 2009 11:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If Marmol can keep it up
and guys like Guzman and Grabow can set him up, I think the Cubs will be in good shape in the late-innings department.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 28, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I think it wouldn’t hurt signing one additional veteran arm for the pen (do we consider Grabow a veteran). Knowing we hopefully have a solid bullpen a risk such as JJ Putz might be worth investigating in.
FYI I was looking at Joel Piniero’s numbers and I’m more and more sure he would be a good fit as a starter in Chicago. He has an incredibly impressive groundball vs. flyout ratio which is great for Wrigley. Hopefully he can keep up his decent ERA and fantastic control.
Also what do you guys think Ben Sheets will be asking for on the open market?
by ak123 on Sep 28, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Rich Harden a lot...
but with our payroll committments, it just doesn’t make sense to bring him back at around 10M (as a closer or as a starter) when we have Gorzelanny (sp?) and Marshall who can probably provide similar production that Harden did this year.
by kanderber on Sep 28, 2009 12:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree if he were to remain the same
but don’t you think this year is the anamoly in Harden’s career? He was arguably the best pitcher in the NL after we acquired him in ’08. I would think he would return to previous levels rather than his worst season. So what is Harden to the Cubs? Tough to figure this one out.
Anything over 2 years is a risk, but he has been healthy this season. My concern for the staff in 2010 is Wells, not Gorz or Marshall (I agree both would suffice).
by socalbob on Sep 28, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but...
even if it is the anomaly, which it clearly is, he’s just too expensive for the Cubs. We’ve got way too much committed already. With young, cheap guys like Gorz and Marshall, I just don’t see how they can justify signing Harden to an 8 figure deal.
As I mentioned before, I’m a big Rich Harden fan. But I realize that it just doesn’t make any sense for the Cubs to resign him.
by kanderber on Sep 28, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm kinda in that boat too
2 year $20 million? Would that interest you? I believe he makes $7MM. Is he worth another $3MM per year to this team? Find a take of Miles along with the imminent trade of Bradley and it may be a wash.
The problem is he will never be the 200 IP guy.
by socalbob on Sep 28, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
2/$20M?
After last season, I would be interested in seeing if he’d take it. After this season, not so much. As discussed friday, he started 26 games, but only 13 that I would class as better than an average of Gorz/Marshall, the other 13 were roughly worse than a Gorz/Marshall average.
Strike out pitchers are fun to watch, but Harden averages to no better than Gorz/Marshall, why commit the coin?
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Sep 28, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
why commit the coin?
because his upside to return to somewhere near ’08 versus ’09. He will most definitely out-perform Wells, Gorz, and Marshall. Are you ready to let that talent and production walk?
For a few million more, I think it’s worth it. If he’s looking for $12-14 MM per year, then I say “see ya Rich.”
by socalbob on Sep 28, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, what I want and what payroll the Cubs can commit
don’t seem to have any relation these days. I don’t want to see that talent walk, but am being realistic. The team needs an everyday second baseman (or shortstop if Theriot moves over), someone to backup the corners, an everyday center fielder or a solid LH bat to platoon with Johnson, veteran bullpen set up.
Assuming the Cubs will have to eat all or part of MB’s contract, the only money coming off will be Heilman, Harden, & Gregg. As said above, Harden’s a luxury the Cub’s can’t afford in 2010.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Sep 28, 2009 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe you will be correct.
I agree with your points about the overall roster.
by socalbob on Sep 28, 2009 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want to be right. I'd love to see Hendry finagle trades of Bradley and Soriano without
eating dollars, freeing up coin to distribute for depth.
I just don’t believe any of that is possible.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Sep 29, 2009 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would, but...
then you’d have to go cheap elsewhere — most likely, the void created by dumping Bradley. And I don’t know if that’s realistic. The only scenario I could envision there would be a Johnson/Fuld combo. So, the question is… would you prefer Harden/Fuld or Marshall/a Cameron type? You could make a good argument either way, but considering this team’s biggest problem — offense — I’d go with the latter.
by kanderber on Sep 28, 2009 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oakland considered that
Rich wants to start, and I’m sure the market for him as a starter will be very good. I don’t want him to come back though. He’s good and all, but he’s far too injury prone.
by Mulhollandmania on Sep 28, 2009 12:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No.
He needs more rest in between.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
by TCobb1911 on Sep 28, 2009 1:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Too. Many. Walks.
His dad told a buddy of mine that Rich is hoping for one more decent contract – he’ll be asking for 4 years, but will settle for 2. I think he’ll get a Brad Penny kind of deal. Low risk, possible reward for the team that signs him.
Scott Bora$ is satan.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Sep 28, 2009 1:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd give him a year plus an option year...
… where you’d have to meet incentives that are WAY harder to meet than the ones in Bradley’s contract.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Sep 28, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought this idea had been beaten to death long ago...
…but I guess not. I say NO for four reasons:
1) I understand that, to remain healthy, Harden needs plenty of time between appearances. That wouldn’t work too well for a closer – especially if he went out one game and had one of his patented 30-pitch innings due to maddening amounts of fly balls (and the odd walk or two).
2) Ask yourself why we don’t like Kevin Gregg this season. Here’s a two-word hint: HOME RUNS. Well, Rich had the same problem this year, remember? He’s a three-true-outcome pitcher: Ks, BBs, HRs. As a closer, the Ks would obviously be great – the walks and home runs? Not so much.
3) Even though he had a relatively mediocre year, Harden still has far too much value as a starter to go the closer route just yet. Oh, and despite all the injury concerns, he proved he could go 26 starts this season – something very few would’ve predicted going in.
4) I’ve heard Lou interviewed several times of late and he’s spoken quite glowingly of Carlos Marmol as closer. I think he – and the organzation – have essentially settled on Carlos for that role and aren’t going to (re-)sign a free agent such as Harden to be the closer. They have other things to worry about.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 28, 2009 1:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The A's tried it and it did not work out
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 28, 2009 1:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No they didn't . . .
According to his stat page, he’s never pitched in more than 3 games in any one season in which he wasn’t the starter . . .
by TheRiot02 on Sep 28, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
I should have posted that it was considered and dismissed due to concerns about his ability to throw on consecutive days and Harden’s own desire to be a starter.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 28, 2009 2:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Cubs need to retain Harden one way or another, IMO.
I don’t want to see him in a Brewers uniform next year.
The guy deserves another 1 year deal / arb to prove his worth.
BIG mistake to let him go. I’m not sold on Randy Wells or Gorz yet.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
by EJThunder on Sep 28, 2009 5:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll agree with you on the last bit
I think the NL central has the book on Gorzelanny and Wells will have to prove it in the second year, but anything beyond a one year deal with Harden is a huge gamble.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Sep 28, 2009 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harden, Wells and Gorzelanny
All come with big question marks. Harden, with stuff as good as anyone in the game but who is brittle, Wells who showed great potential but who has also struggled the last month or so, and Gorzelanny who has some injuries and some inconsistency despite being a very solid pitcher in his short stint in a Cubs’ uniform. Bottom line, Harden under contract for one more year would be worth the risk.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 28, 2009 6:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's too late for this.
Marmol is your closer now, and unless you want to seriously mess with the head of one of your most sensitive players, there is just no way you would make a move like this.
This would be like taking the Tonight Show away from Conan after only a couple months and giving it to Alec Baldwin.
"Was you ever punched in the face five hundred times a night? It stings after a while." ~Rocky Balboa
by Goodie1969 on Sep 28, 2009 6:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Or the morning show away from John Williams?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 29, 2009 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harden as a closer....
….no thank you!
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 28, 2009 9:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
...
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 29, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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