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Welcome Back the Marmol of Old

With another scoreless inning this afternoon, Carlos Marmol extended his scoreless appearances streak to 6 games. During this span he's regained his form of previous seasons striking out 10 and walking just 3, while allowing just 5 base-runners in total. While everyone breathes a short sigh of relief to see the old Carlos back again, I'd like to investigate what the difference is between Marmol of late and the "erratic" Marmol we saw earlier in the season.

Before getting into it, I should preface this by saying while I've been a member of BCB I've probably been known best for two debates, which i've firmly entrenched myself on a side of. The first would be the pro-Felix Pie camp and the second would be the camp that was issuing warning signs about Marmol's usage. With regards to Marmol, I first raised concerns over this in a thread DGU posted last August (i believe), noting the abusive patterns in which Marmol was being used and the times a more diligent manager may have been able to avoid using Marmol. The second was a post earlier this year when things were actually going OK for the Cubs. I highlighted Marmol's alarming command issues and for the most part the poll I posted suggested there was nothing wrong and it was a short-term concern: A blip on the radar screen if you will.

Now as you'll have it there are arguments that can be made on both ends suggesting they were right. As often is the case with prognostication people can claim they weren't wrong, they were just "early". This is all fine and good the point of the site is to bring opinions to the table and talk about them in an educated and passionate fashion. I'm on board with all of this, I just happen to be more open to arguments I can see and understand. I have trouble seeing intangibles or some of the cliches others hold true about Marmol's confidence or his "comfort level" in his role, etc. As someone with a slight educational background in psychology, I'm not sure I understand how someone who has no interaction with the other human being is able to so plainly diagnose a mental issue like that. So, in general I lean towards numbers, because numbers can often give us insight into the problem and may offer a more reliable and less subjective way of assessing the problem. The numbers won't always tell the whole story, but they're usually a good entry point.

So this brings me to the point of this post: Why is Marmol's effectiveness so wildly different now?

Throughout the last year and a half much of my argument surrounding Marmol has revolved around his usage rates. My argument has largely been that the more frequently Marmol is used the less effective he is. This is contrary to popular belief and Lou's belief that Marmol needs to pitch more regularly to be effective.

To illustrate this point i've often showed these career numbers from Marmol:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=marmoca01&year=Career&t=p#dr

Marmol's effectiveness on Days of Rest as Reliever:

Days Rest           K/9          BB/9

0 Days Rest        12.4        6.6

1 Days Rest        11.0        5.2

2 Days Rest        12.7        5.7

3 Days Rest        12.3        3.9

4+ Days Rest      11.0        3.7

The chart shows that Marmol's ability to strike batters out is pretty consistent no matter the rest, but his command tends to falter the more frequently he's used (as evidenced by the declining BB/9 based on usage). It's a helpful entry point into the discussion, but I'm not sure it paints a full picture; so I wanted to investigate further.

Last year Marmol  had command issues at times, but they've were restricted to shorter spurts. In 2008, Marmol was awful in June/July. But this year those problems were there from the start and rarely subsided. There were blips of his old self, but then the command issues would quickly come back.

So I wanted to put a theory to test. My idea was that based on the opinion Marmol was more effective when pitching more frequently, people were mis-interpreting Marmol's usage patterns.

My idea was fairly simple. In the midst of an abusive pattern Marmol exhibits the same characteristics of his old self, but towards the end of those abusive patterns the fatigue sets in and things start falling apart rapidly. This then leads to a sustained period of decline that can only be re-set by an extended period of rest.

To test this, I simply took all the times Marmol had pitched in what I deemed "absuive patterns". The samples that were included were:

- times Marmol pitched 4 days in a row

- times Marmol pitched 5 times in 7 days

- times Marmol pitched 6 times in 8 days

- times Marmol pitched 4 times in 5 days

- times Marmol pitched 7 times in 10 days

and I compared these with the results directly after Abuse Patterns (the week following an abuse pattern) along with the results of Marmol's effectiveness after what i deemed "Rest periods". Rest periods were graded as the following:

- times Marmol went 4 days without an appearance

- times Marmol had just 1 appearance in 6 days

So I  put together a table of the results of the 11 data points i found for each sample:

 

 

  K/9 BB/9 IP WHIP ERA
Abuse 12.55 6.83 56 2/3 1.34 4.13
Post-Abuse 9.64 5.46 28 0.89 2.25
           
Rest 10.13 5.07 10 0.66 0.00
Post-Rest 12.40 5.51 35 2/3 1.25 1.93

 

There's a bit of overlap in some of the data, for example you can find a rest day that also is "post-abuse" and some of the post-rest days lead into abuse days because of the way Pineilla uses Marmol, but I thought this might be interesting.

It's actually not "as strong" a relationship as I was hoping/expecting to find. Post-abuse Marmol's K Rate declines, but so does his BB Rate and generally he's effective. But far and away the worst period for him is during these abuse patterns, as his BB Rate sky-rockets as do his WHIP and ERA. This disproves my idea that maybe the popular opinion that he was effective the more he pitched was due to Marmol pitching well through abuse patterns and then pitching poorly directly after. It turns out he does in fact pitch the worst while being asked to toe the mound the most often.

This is in line with the earlier link I posted (and have posted dozens of times on here) showing Marmol's career rates based on days rest. All of this seems to add up and suggest, Marmol's just a better pitcher the more time off he gets.

So how does this tie into what we're seeing now? Since Marmol's been moved to closer on August 18th, he's pitched far less than usual. He's pitched just 9 times in 23 days, an average of 2.7 appearances/week. Prior to August 18th his career average was 3.2 appearances/week. In addition as a closer he's pitched on back-to-back days just once and hasn't registered a single "abuse pattern" (as defined above).

This is why I think Marmol is getting back to the ways of old.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

14 recs  |  Comment 39 comments

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+1

I don't care how long you've been around, you'll never see it all.

by Dou on Sep 9, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

I would sleep with Blou if it meant the Cubs would win a WS. by Doggie Stalker on Aug 22, 2009 4:11 PM EDT

by cubsluver22 on Sep 9, 2009 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

great data

he’s hard to square up, so when his command is on, he’s nails!

Great work and taking hte time to show these patterns. Your analysis is always spot on.

by socalbob on Sep 9, 2009 5:25 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The Lansing Lugnuts celebrated their last home game with a bobblehead giveaway of Carlos Marmol.

Unfortunately, someone forgot to tell the good folks in China where they were made. My Carlos bobblehead is a lefty.

Ooops.

Does that make it MORE valuable or less?

Quia tuum es fatum titulis discidiis, vexillinis limbis nationalis,
gloriam seriis mundialisque, nunc et in saecula saeculorum...

Amen.

by Zeke on Sep 9, 2009 5:36 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Can he play right field?

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Sep 9, 2009 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

it means

he can pitch into his 40’s

by socalbob on Sep 9, 2009 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

less valuable

then he only gets .1 inning every other day as a loogy under the Lou regime….ha

I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.

by hansman1982 on Sep 13, 2009 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

great post

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Sep 9, 2009 6:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice Dartmouth

I’ve agreed with you all season long. Man, I wish Lou would look at something like this.

Say this much for big league baseball - it is beyond question the greatest conversation piece ever invented in America. ~Bruce Catton

by KaliCub on Sep 9, 2009 6:29 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Posts like this make up for a lot of the awful ones.

Great work, DCF. I love this, from the summation:

Since Marmol’s been moved to closer on August 18th, he’s pitched far less than usual. He’s pitched just 9 times in 23 days, an average of 2.7 appearances/week. Prior to August 18th his career average was 3.2 appearances/week. In addition as a closer he’s pitched on back-to-back days just once and hasn’t registered a single “abuse pattern”

I happen to love that Marmol is “protected,” in a sense, by his new role. We’re watching the results of this every day.

"Was you ever punched in the face five hundred times a night? It stings after a while." ~Rocky Balboa

by Goodie1969 on Sep 9, 2009 6:32 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

But the question is, then....

… what happens when the team needs him to close three games in four days, or four games in five days, which is sometimes necessary for a closer?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Sep 10, 2009 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

good question

I thought the same thing. I don’t have the time, but I would say to understand the liability of this happening, maybe a similar analysis, say of Joe Nathan, would tell the story. He’s from a winning team, he’s a 1 inning guy, and certainly does not get over-worked.

Does the over-work happen 3 times per year or 20 times per year? Or someone in the middle and can the Cubs live with it.

I just hope Lou has the smarts to avoid bringing in Marmol in the 9th when the Cubs have a 3+ run lead. I hate seeing the closer in a game in a low-leverage situation. And given Marmol’s penchant for being worse with more work, it makes zero sense.

by socalbob on Sep 10, 2009 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How about I pose it this way?

If we knew Marmol was say a 4.13 ERA, 1.34 WHIP pitcher when in the midst of these abuse patterns, would it be better to use him with a 3 run lead or someone else in the pen? Now this is a big leap since the numbers on the abuse patterns are still pretty small samples, but if you think of it that way, the manager may be able to use a Guzman or someone else in the 9th on a day when Marmol can rest.

I think the biggest cause of these abusive patterns are two-fold:

1) Not setting strict boundaries on Carlos’ usage. My guess is most relief pitchers go through 3-4 stretches a season where they are abused. So yes it’s going to happen at some point, the problem with Carlos is he had registered ELEVEN of these periods in 1 4/45 seasons of data. This seems excessive

2) Using Marmol in low leverage situations. A lot of these abuse patterns were started by using Marmol on a day where the Cubs just wanted to “get him some work”. You need to be willing to sit him 4-5 days in a row if the game situation doesn’t call for using him. The numbers suggest he’s better with more rest anyways, so just don’t use him when you don’t have to. The Yankees have done this with Rivera throughout his career and had plenty of success with it. Now… Rivera is a freak… so comparing him to Marmol may not be apt, but that’s the first example that came to mind

Basically, its going to happen from time to time when Marmol’s going to be overworked, but the goal should be to limit those times and you can do that by simply eliminating the low leverage situations he pitches in AND by moving his role further out in the game, giving less opportunity for leverage situations (as before he had to be ready to cover three possible innings of leverage, 7th, 8th, or 9th. Now he just has the 9th)

by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 10, 2009 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

it should be noted

by moving his role further out in the game, you also lose value as his impact is automatically on fewer games.

However if you’re an adept manager not managing to the save rule, you can still bring in your closer in tie games in the 9th, or close situations in the 8th and extend him. The key is not falling in love with the save rule and if there’s a 3 run lead with the bottom of the order due up and Marmol has worked 3 days in a row, why not give someone else a chance at closing it out?

This is the thing Lou never does that drives me insane.

by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 10, 2009 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

However...

… Lou’s no different from most managers in that regard. These days, the closer is the closer, and he goes into save situations no matter what.

Not saying that’s right, just that it happens all the time.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Sep 10, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's true

the problem is the other managers don’t use their closers when they’re up by 7 “to get them some work” because they think “the player pitches better the more often he throws”

that’s the real issue. if lou could lay off one or the other we’d have a more effective marmol and for longer

by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 10, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

true but

sometimes, even with a 7 run lead, who else do you use? Our pen this season has been shakey to say the least, and sometimes with a big lead, you still cannot rely too much on Patton (for example)

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Sep 11, 2009 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

if a guy can't get 3 outs

without giving up 7 runs…

he shouldn’t be in the majors…

by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 11, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

thats how our bullpen has seemed at times

either lights out, or a long night.

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Sep 11, 2009 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A fine line...

…here between overwork and not getting enough work. Look at the guy on the Phils this year after being almost unhittable last year. Being an effective closer is very much between your ears, and there just happen to be only a few guys who can sustain the mental approach for extended periods.

In essence, your closer needs to be a guy who is rock solid upstairs, and can find ways to get guys out when they are not at their best. We’ll see if Marmol can find that in time.

I hesitate to think Marmol’s inability to find the plate is directly related to what you say, but that’s just my opinion.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Sep 13, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Being a closer

is just like any other reliever – you have violent swings up and down. The save is the single most overrated stat in all of baseball just due to the sheer volume of people that count on this one number to tell if a player is good. Its like someone who depends solely on an ERA.
The stat that should be looked at is save percentage (saves vs. save opportunities) or the pitchers ERA in non-save situations.
I feel the save has destroyed the bullpen by designating your best reliever for only one role – god forbid you bring them in in the 7th with the bases loaded and no outs to get out of a jam.

I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.

by hansman1982 on Sep 13, 2009 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Save percentage isn't so hot either.

Pitchers often earn blown saves in games they were never going to be given a chance to save in the first place.

Most relievers’ ERAs fluctuate wildly, also, because they just don’t accumulate enough innings for it to even out. That is probably one reason that power pitchers, who strike out and walk more batters, tend to survive in bullpen roles — strikeouts and walks come a lot more consistently than batted balls are converted to outs, so the fluctuations in their results are less severe. In addition to the fluctuations in results, ERA is an incomplete measure of performance for relievers, who often enter and leave games with runners on base. Something like RE24 (which takes bases occupied and outs recorded into account), while subject to luck-based fluctuations like ERA, at least measures a reliever’s results more fairly.

But because of the fluctuations inherent in a reliever’s results, to evaluate relievers and try to predict future success it’s especially necessary to dig down to things they have lots of control over: strikeouts, walks, and home runs (although it’s hard to determine a pitcher’s actual skill at preventing home runs). Attempts at synthesizing these factors into one single number include xFIP (which is on the scale of ERA) and tRA (on the scale of RA).

I think I agree that chasing the save is not always the best bullpen management strategy. It’s not just chasing numbers that causes it; I think a big part of it is managers trying to cover their behinds. If the bullpen fails the media always wants to blame someone; unfortunately if the manager uses his mind while deploying the bullpen the media is more likely to blame him. On the other hand, it’s possible that some players perform better given a fixed role (unfortunately this is really hard to test… sort of like claims that some batters hit better in their favorite lineup slot).

by aldimond on Sep 15, 2009 1:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Pitchers often earn blown saves in games they were never going to be given a chance to save in the first place."

This is not so true of closers, who usually enter a game only if there is a save chance. Save percentage is probably the best measure of a closer’s effectiveness, not perfect, but it at least measures the only closer stat that matters.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Sep 15, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey Marmol

Go out there work your ass off and be lights out and when our current closer is gone, the job will be yours.

Dear Carlos our current closer is gone now and we will bring in a less than stellar option that can’t pitch anywhere but the 9th and can’t do that too well, so even though you done a great job, you will not receive a chance at realizing your dream as a closer. Even though you earned it.

How would that make you feel in your job?

Congrats Marmol you’ve earned your spot, now hopefully management will give you a real support system.

I would sleep with Blou if it meant the Cubs would win a WS. by Doggie Stalker on Aug 22, 2009 4:11 PM EDT

by cubsluver22 on Sep 9, 2009 8:36 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Great stuff DCF....

…you also have to wonder how much becoming the closer has boosted his confidence too.

by JB 23 on Sep 9, 2009 8:50 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I remember saying Marmol getting the closer job would

lead to better results from him. When Wood left, he had to think deep down the closer job was his and it beat down his confidence some when he wasn’t given the closer job. He still went out and gave maximum effort but it wasn’t the same.

Good data.

by Cubsfan Waveland on Sep 10, 2009 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fabulous data

It sure looks like Carlos has found a comfort zone as the undisputed closer. To me, it makes perfect sense that he’s much more effective with less work and more rest. Thanks for numerical insight in his resurgence this season.

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Sir Winston Churchill

by propheteer on Sep 9, 2009 11:29 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Great post.

Although the numbers aren’t quite as black-and-white as you may have expected (they rarely are, it seems), it still appears the closer’s role is one that suits Carlos Marmol quite well.

As the cliche goes, everything happens for a reason. Perhaps Kevin Gregg’s awful bout with the long ball this year is what needed to occur to finally get Carlos put in the 9th inning for good. And with Angel Guzman headed toward an excellent season as a set-up man, Marmol’s successor in that role is taken care of as well.

Assuming nothing too disastrous occurs here in the waning weeks of the season, it appears this may be one of those bright spots we’re all looking for in a very difficult 2009.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by dat cubfan daver on Sep 10, 2009 9:34 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for all the positive reinforcement

i’m actually kind of surprised it hasn’t been met with more criticism, given the history on this topic…

I haven’t been posting as often because my time has been tied up with other real world responsibilities, but I’ve been wanting to address the change in Marmol’s role and how it may be helping get him back on track.

by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 10, 2009 11:13 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Good work compiling these.

I think it’s really fascinating that the days of rest graph shows such a clear trend but that the trend isn’t so clear in the more sophisticated analysis. But, then again, the clear trend could be a fluke, too. Walk rate for pitchers doesn’t stabilize as quickly as you might think: http://statspeak.net/2008/01/on-the-reliability-of-pitching-stats.html

Apparently you need 300 PA to “trust” BB/9 (BB/PA and K/PA are better in many ways than BB/9 and K/9, but you have to manually calculate them; in the linked study, “trust” means something like “more than half the difference from the mean is, statistically speaking, repeatable/due to the player and not external/random variation”). 300 PA is usually going to be more than 60 and fewer than 75 innings. Now, it might be that when you’re taking meaningful splits you can trust it sooner because you’re removing a meaningful external source of variation. I’m not enough of a stat geek to figure out just how much, or even when this applies — using a pattern in a split itself to do this seems circular. It certainly is logical to expect pitchers to be differently effective with certain use patterns, and for this to manifest itself very differently from pitcher to pitcher. I don’t think your work is meaningless, I just think it’s not surprising that you don’t see the trends you expect given the small number of innings in some of the groupings.

It seems a little early to say that Marmol is back on track since being named closer. If my count is right he’s faced just 38 batters in that time. I do think your thesis makes sense — that Marmol, when used with restraint, will be physically able to pitch better. And you’re doing a lot more concrete work to verify your hypothesis than people speculating about his psychology. Not that psychology can’t be a factor, it’s just really hard to know. The expectation then would be that his performance after being named closer would exceed his previous performance across all types of usage patterns, and we’re simply not going to get enough data to test that this year or even next — and, of course, that holding true wouldn’t prove the hypothesis, since many different things could cause a pitcher to lose and then regain his command.

by aldimond on Sep 10, 2009 11:26 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

here is a question

with the title WELCOME BACK MARMOL, why has no one made a Welcome Back Kotter theme song for Marmol?

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Sep 11, 2009 8:32 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett

by berselius on Sep 11, 2009 10:44 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

marmol

lets hope they dont start the closer b.s. in spring training. give the job to marmol. in my opinion its his to lose.

by NOMAR on Sep 12, 2009 7:34 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I tend to agree but

what if Marmol melts down in spring or early on in 2010? They need a plan B for the closer’s spot, they cannot go into the season assuming he will be fine.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Sep 12, 2009 10:52 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Relievers are volatile by nature

There are very few pitchers who you can reasonably expect to put up good numbers each year, and those guys are generally in the Mariano Rivera, Joe Nathan mold. In other words, assuming Marmol will be fine, is probably not any much more risky than assuming another pitcher will be fine.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 13, 2009 2:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

closer

maybe this is lou auditioning marmol for next year. he has to stop walking so many people or he will never get the job. lou has almost said as much. im sure kevin gregg is gone so he wont be in the mix. I HOPE.

by NOMAR on Sep 13, 2009 6:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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