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Around SBN: Devils Beat Rangers, Head To Stanley Cup Finals

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best part imho
"It’s tough to hit a home run off your back," Jenkins said. "In my era, Seaver, Gibson, Drysdale, Carlton, there were so many guys that would have probably knocked him on his butt. He wouldn’t have hit home runs the way he did in that era."

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Jan 21, 2010 9:00 PM CST reply actions  

I liked this one
I’m not sure a home-run hitter can teach a good hitter, a contact hitter, how to play, how to hit. He swung for the fences most of the time. How you going to teach a guy that’s a .240 hitter to put it in play?"

Maybe indirectly that will help us.

"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Jan 22, 2010 8:18 AM CST up reply actions  

Unless Mac teaches the .240 hitters

Some OBP.

I didn’t like that part of Fergie’s argument. Sounded like sour grapes. The apology part was classic.

"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman

by BucknerKongCardenal on Jan 22, 2010 10:23 PM CST up reply actions  

FERGIE WAS ALMOST SUSPENDED FOR COCAIN!?!?!

MY MIND HAS JUST BEEN BLOWN AWAY. He is right though.

by Cubbiegoon on Jan 21, 2010 9:23 PM CST reply actions  

I love Fergie

Absolutely love him.

But his ridiculously simplistic outrage is absurd.

1) He played in a time when amphetamines were openly used in every clubhouse yet says nothing about any of the accomplishments of his peers.
2) He was a cokehead. Think he was against other drugs while playing simply because they were performance enhancing?
3) He fails to take into account that dozens, if not hundreds of pitchers who McGwire batted against were also taking steroids.

by Holtzmaniac on Jan 21, 2010 11:16 PM CST reply actions   2 recs

i agree

especially with #1

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Jan 22, 2010 12:36 AM CST up reply actions  

I agree #1 & #3 are the right take.

I’ll leave #2 alone, but other PED’s were in use and just because McGwire is the third highest profile player to be outed (behind Bonds & Clemens) he’s not alone in having cheated.

He probably does owe an apology to all the clean players hanging on to major league jobs who he sent home to sell insurance including the pitchers who he knocked around and the first base prospects he blocked after he would have retired from injury.

MLB needs to define the steroid years from 1985 to 2003 and asterisk the era and establish how proven users should be treated when eligible for the HOF.

Just to make a controversial suggestion on the HOF consideration, how using science to determine the average % of performance upgrade (stats or years) obtainable with a cocktail of HGH and anabolic steroids and ask voters to discount career numbers accordingly. For example, if 20% improvement could be expected in power numbers, use only 80% of the players totals. At the very least, McGwire would be a footnote in history.

at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!

by N Oakley on Jan 22, 2010 8:41 AM CST up reply actions  

kinda

due to his point #1 you leave the asterick off the era, unless you add an asterick to all the eras for their problems

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Jan 22, 2010 2:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Regarding the "But mom, everyone is doing it" argument....

it’s the best line of defense that the cheater-apologists have, so it continues to come up, and will continue to come up. When backed against the wall, those fighting a losing argument simply play the best card they have, and the “everyone was doing it” card is all that’s left. And the cocaine argument is just silly. It may be a performance enhancer for rock stars or comedians, but athletes? Come on.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Jan 22, 2010 12:45 PM CST up reply actions  

It's not a defense at all

It’s an accurate understanding of the era.

by Holtzmaniac on Jan 22, 2010 3:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Well stated.

Turn it green.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 22, 2010 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

You completely missed the point. All 3 of them actually

1) Obviously there are differences between steroids and amphetamines. But do you know what the biggest differences are insofar as it relates to the time Fergie was playing? It was that steroids weren’t widely available and people hadn’t thought to use them in baseball. It is utterly naive to think that the hypercompetitive players of the 60s and 70s who swallowed amphetamines on a daily basis to gain an edge would not have taken steroids. Fergie Jenkins and so many of his generation glorify their own time by disparaging the next without taking an honest look at themselves and their teammates.

2) I said absolutely nothing about cocaine being a stimulant. My point is that it’s asinine to think that someone who would do cocaine would be averse to taking a much less dangerous drug like amphetamines. In other words, amphetamines were common in baseball, Fergie Jenkins did drugs, it’s beyond same to assume that he was popping greenies throughout his magnificent run with with the Cubs.

3) Hate it or not, the fact is that steroids were entirely widespread in baseball. There was the steroids era in baseball. How people want to deal with it is up to them. But to dismiss hitters accomplishments, as Jenkins does, because they were aided by steroids without taking into consideration they were often facing pitchers who were aided by steroids is a willfully ignorant way to look at things.

by Holtzmaniac on Jan 22, 2010 3:00 PM CST up reply actions  

How did I miss the point?
1) Obviously there are differences between steroids and amphetamines. But do you know what the biggest differences are insofar as it relates to the time Fergie was playing? It was that steroids weren’t widely available and people hadn’t thought to use them in baseball. It is utterly naive to think that the hypercompetitive players of the 60s and 70s who swallowed amphetamines on a daily basis to gain an edge would not have taken steroids. Fergie Jenkins and so many of his generation glorify their own time by disparaging the next without taking an honest look at themselves and their teammates.

Does that change anything? It’s really amazing that it took so long for baseball to have a steroid era when you consider that body builders and football players caught on. Brian Downing might have dabbled, but the guy had some guns early in his career. Who knows? Who knows who would have taken steroids if some guy like Canseco was pretty open about what he was using to other players. The point is that they didn’t use steroids and it didn’t matter if it wasn’t as pervasive as it was in the 1980’s and 1990’s. They didn’t use and that’s the point. Would they have? Bob Gibson claims he would have, but who cares?

2) I said absolutely nothing about cocaine being a stimulant. My point is that it’s asinine to think that someone who would do cocaine would be averse to taking a much less dangerous drug like amphetamines. In other words, amphetamines were common in baseball, Fergie Jenkins did drugs, it’s beyond same to assume that he was popping greenies throughout his magnificent run with with the Cubs.

I never said it wasn’t, but not every drug user is going to sample every drug out there. There are definitely drug users like that, but it’s not the profile of every drug user. Could Fergie have used meth? Any one of us could have at any point in our lives, but it doesn’t mean we used.

3) Hate it or not, the fact is that steroids were entirely widespread in baseball. There was the steroids era in baseball. How people want to deal with it is up to them. But to dismiss hitters accomplishments, as Jenkins does, because they were aided by steroids without taking into consideration they were often facing pitchers who were aided by steroids is a willfully ignorant way to look at things.

All I can say is look at the numbers of Mark McGwire. The guy practically transformed into Lou Ferigno. It did add to what he would have had and I projected his numbers without injury assumption (and no 1994-95 strike) and he was not projected to get to 500 home runs after his 1989 season. Can you say inflated? I think so.

The argument doesn’t hold for a stimulant. Using stimulants to get you through an all night cram session won’t make you smarter. It’s more counterproductive because of the crash, but they do help you do what you could have done if you weren’t tired.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Jan 22, 2010 9:46 PM CST up reply actions  

to add to #1

how do we know if anyone was using or not? If someone was, they will not say “hey, we started the steroid revolution, and I was the one to show Canseco how to do it” since they want to keep the “we are clean and didnt do any wrong” reputation so to speak

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Jan 22, 2010 10:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Huh?

How does the fact that Fergie was a cokehead and chain smoked in the dugout have anything to do with his outrage about steroids?!?! Cocaine is ruinous to your ability to perform on the baseball diamond, not an enhancer like steroids.

Good grief.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Jan 22, 2010 12:39 PM CST up reply actions  

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