Ben Sheets signs with the Oakland Athletics
by Chanman25 on Jan 26, 2010 12:44 PM CST
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Well, looks like we missed out on Sheets. CBS sports (and ESPN now on Sportscenter) is reporting that Ben Sheets signed a one year deal with that Oakland Athletics earlier today. An article can be found here: http://danny-knobler.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/8590096/19783010
Here are the terms of the deal:
Sheets agreed to terms on a one-year deal for $10 million, plus incentives. He passed a physical today, and the deal is expected to be announced this afternoon.
I say that is a little more than we wanted to spend. Oh well, I'd love to see Marshall or Gorzy get the chance to start anyway.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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That's an astounding amount of money for someone coming off an injury and a year off.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yep
No way do I want that contract on my team. They may luck out and Sheets makes 30 decent starts…but I wouldn’t bet on it.
damn near $1m for each month since he pitched in a game
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
And
of all teams paying him that much money the A’s are the ones.
"But it doesn't matter what I do, what I choose. I'm what's wrong. This is fate" - Dexter season 4....I mean Lovie season 6.
Someone explain to me again....
…. why Billy Beane is such a “genius”.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Because...
… he acquired Matt Holliday before last season and dealt him for a boatload of prospects.
He’ll do the same with Sheets.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Jan 27, 2010 7:24 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
If Sheets doesn’t work out, this won’t bankrupt them, and there are no long-term consequences to the signing. If it does work out, and Sheets is healthy, then Beane either has a front of the rotation, experienced veteran to anchor a talented but young staff; or he has a player he can trade for prospects if the A’s are out of the running by July. This is a solid move.
More so, he’s out of the NL Central, finally.
by Orval Overall on Jan 27, 2010 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
he also traded for MIles and Fox
does that offset?
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
But yet.....
The Royals get ridiculed for the exact same thing.
Beane’s no genius. There’s no way to justify giving Sheets this kind of money.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
He WAS, once.....
…. but now? By this logic, let’s sign Koufax. Rumor has it he can still snap off a curve.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Clemens remains unsigned, can we get him too
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Can Lynn Ryan
own a MLB team, an AAA team and pitch for the Cubs?
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
But he'll never pay the entire contract.
See Al’s comment above. This is great for Billy Beane. If he’s good, you deal him away.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jan 28, 2010 7:11 PM CST up reply actions
I've been reading the comments on that article's posting section
A lot of people think he will be traded at the deadline if he performs well. The A’s will most likely pick up some good prospects in return; smart signing for them.
Start Sean Marshall!!
that's what I'm thinking Hendry may do
he has a good relationship with Beane too
Start Sean Marshall!!
Beane can usually sense weakness
Bailey, Chapman, Cueto, Leake, and Volquez; the future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.
by justin007000 on Jan 26, 2010 1:15 PM CST up reply actions
They gave up nothing
and they got nothing.
by jerry morales rules on Jan 26, 2010 3:37 PM CST up reply actions
Honestly, I think yes
He wasn’t bad, but the guy threw only 141 innings last year and had a 4.09 ERA. That’s not to mention the stress he puts on the bullpen and other parts of a pitching staff because he only goes 5 maybe 6 innings and makes only about 3/4 of his starts.
And, I think that’s pretty much what you can assume from him going forward. Maybe his ERA wil come down some, but you better have the back up plan ready to go because you know you are going to need it.
by jerry morales rules on Jan 26, 2010 4:27 PM CST up reply actions
2008 doesn't count?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 26, 2010 8:55 PM CST up reply actions
He made 12 starts in 2008
In only 4 of which did he pitch a full 7 innings. Half of the 12 starts he didn’t even complete 6.
Sure, the few innings that he actually did pitch he pitched well, but I’m not going to say that a pitcher who can’t average even 6 innings per start for a two and half mointh period while that team is in a playoff race is anything I’m going to say is integral. He’s a positive but, meh, I’m not concerned he’s gone.
That’s not to mention that he missed a few starts along the way too. And he didn’t pitch well in his one playoff start either.
by jerry morales rules on Jan 27, 2010 9:38 AM CST up reply actions
That's funny math
He made 12 starts in 2008 — FOR THE CUBS WHO ONLY ACQUIRED HIM ON JULY 12. How many did you expect him to make – 30? By my count, there are only two starts he didn’t make, and that was because the Cubs wanted to be cautious with him more than anything else.
Twelve starts out of what you could expect to be 14, or max 15. In those twelve starts, he personally went 5-1 with a 1.77 ERA. The team went 9-3 in those starts.
So yes, considering they were trading mid-season for a guy to aid their pennant run, and he delivered with a .750 winning percentage in the games he started en route to a division title, I would say he’s not “nothing.” Not by a long shot.
by Orval Overall on Jan 27, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
It's not funny math
The poster asked me about his contribution in ‘08. He only started 12 games. He wasn’t itnegral in ‘08. I’m not complaing about what he gave. For the few innings he pitched, he was quite effective. But the Cubs would have still made the playoffs without him and, like I wrote, he didn’t really help much in the playoffs either.
He’s a decent, average pitcher when you take into account the strain he puts on the rest of a pitching staff. No big loss to have him off the team.
by jerry morales rules on Jan 27, 2010 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
That's like saying Cliff Lee wasn't integral to the Phillies' run in 1999
because he only started 12 games after they acquired him.
You have to measure the value of a trade based upon possible outcomes. You can’t say he “only” started 12 when it was only possible to start maybe 15.
by Orval Overall on Jan 27, 2010 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
You are missing my point
I recognize that he only could have started maybe 15 games. I’m just looking at the totality of what he gave the Cubs that year. What he gave was 12 good, albeit short, performances which they mostly won but they also put a strain on the rest of the staff. In addition, he didn’t pitch particularly well in his lone playoff start.
All in all, that’s just not something to write home about in my book. Was it “Nothing”? Well, that probalby is a bit too strong.
And Cliff Lee was a beast for the Philies. There is no comparison there.
“!999”???? Are you a decade off?
by jerry morales rules on Jan 27, 2010 3:03 PM CST up reply actions
You claimed he was nothing for the Cubs
2008 suggests otherwise. I stand by that.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 28, 2010 1:50 PM CST up reply actions
Cliff Lee was a Phillie in 1999?
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Harden = nothing?
dubious to say the least
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 26, 2010 4:43 PM CST up reply actions
OK, maybe "Nothing" is a bit strong
but he’s hardly a guy that any team couldn’t live without. Because of his inability to go deep into games or his inability to go every 5th day for an entire season his value is limited.
The final word hasn’t been written on the prospects the Cubs gave up, though certainly it’s not looking great for Gallagher.
by jerry morales rules on Jan 26, 2010 7:37 PM CST up reply actions
I thought he was a great acquisition...
…for a team headed to the postseason in 2008. Obviously that didn’t work out, but he was a 4.4 WAR pitcher that year and still a 1.8 WAR pitcher last season. My quibble with the original poster was the implication that Beane somehow got the better of Hendry with that deal – and I still disagree with that.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
I'm not saying that he was a bad acquisition
I’m just saying that it really didn’t make much of a difference.
Right now, I call the deal a draw. Neither team really made out with anything. However, 5 years from now, it might be a different story and if it is, I can’t see how the Cubs would be the team that would have gotten the better of it.
by jerry morales rules on Jan 27, 2010 11:38 AM CST up reply actions
Let's be honest
the Cubs got a top of the line starting pitcher who made his team significantly better, whereas the A’s got nothing that has helped them be a better team. Calling that trade a draw is ridiculous.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 27, 2010 5:24 PM CST up reply actions
I don't see how you can argue that Harden made the team "significantly better".
How? What did he do? As I wrote, in 2008 he couldn’t even average 6 innings a start, he missed at least 2 starts in only 2 1/2 months, and he didn’t pitch particularly well in his lone playoff appearance. Top of the line starters don’t average less than 6 innings a start and miss 25% of them. Even in ’09 he only made 26 starts and pitched 141 innings.
Sure, his winning percentage was good, but he had to rely on the bullpen moreso than most pitchers in order to get that done.
Did he provide some benefit? Yes, he did, but “significantly better”, “Top of the line starter” absolutely not.
That’s not to say I think this was a bad trade or one that if I were GM I wouldn’t have made, but it just was one of those trades that from a Cubs perspective really didn’t amount to anything. From an A’s persepctive, the guys they got still have the possibility of helping them out significantly, if not in 2010 then maybe beginning in 2011.
by jerry morales rules on Jan 28, 2010 11:41 AM CST up reply actions
And others here cannot see how you cannot see how Harden made the team significantly better
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 28, 2010 12:31 PM CST up reply actions
Well, just answer how then.
I’m sure there are lots of people who disagree but I haven’t yet seen any worthwhile refute.
Please tell me how a pitcher that can’t average 6 innings a start and misses at least 25% of his starts makes a team “significantly better”? If he were to be a “light’s out” post-season starter, then I would temper my opinion, but that didn’t happen with Harden either, though it was an extremely limited sample size.
Like I wrote, he did provide some marginal benefit, I’m not arguing that, but to categorize that as “significant” is absurd. Without Harden in ’08, the Cubs would have still made the playoffs and would have still lost 3 straight to LAD. That, BTW, is the definition of insignificant.
by jerry morales rules on Jan 28, 2010 1:02 PM CST up reply actions
and to me and plenty of others
you dissing his contributions as “marginal” is equally hard to swallow. I get it, you don’t like the guy but to say he is a marginal player is silly.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 29, 2010 1:04 PM CST up reply actions
I like Harden. Who says I don't like Hrden?
I have no issues with the guy whatsoever. He came to Chicago and gave the Cubs what he could. Bradley is an example of a guy I don’t like.
I was very happy the day the Harden trade was made. However, in the end, looking at what he did, I have to say: “Meh, you know, it really wasn’t all that it was cracked up to be.”
What Harden did not do is make the team significantly better. The on field performance just doesn’t back that up. I’ve asked you to show my how his time with the Cubs made them “significantly better”. At this point, it’s all on the table. We can look through the record and see for ourselves what his contributions were on the field.
You’re inability to constructively put together an argument proves to me that I’m correct in my assessment of Harden – and I think you know that too.
by jerry morales rules on Jan 29, 2010 2:26 PM CST up reply actions
If Sheets puts up an incredible season, this is a great signing
If not, they look like dolts. I would have liked to have gotten Sheets, but he was asking for too much money.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
maybe we could trade for him at the deadline
it be about 4 million for two (or three depending certain circumstances) months, essentially
Start Sean Marshall!!
I quibble a little bit
with the guaranteed cash, but I have to give Oakland a pass on this one. This is pretty much the deal that I expected Harden to receive, whom I consider pretty much the same pitcher. The Athletics have something of a knack for finding good value, so they get the benefit of the doubt on this one.
Not sure I agree
I think that Oakland receives quite a bit of undeserved praise.
There was a period earlier this decade when they hit the jackpot with a collection of good young pitchers who stayed pretty healthy while they were in Oakland.
Had Prior and Wood stayed healthy, teamed with Zambrano, the same thing could have been said of the Cubs (the Marlins and Astros are two other teams that stand out as well). They have for the most part traded these guys away with not a whole lot to show for it (minus Haren, who they stole from StL, but then had stolen by AZ, so that is a wash).
To this collection of good pitchers they added a few, shall we say remarkably muscular individuals.
Count me as one who thinks of Billy Beane as more self-promoted genius that great GM.
Eamus Ursuli!
Beane never asked anyone to write a book (mostly) about him, so IMO all the comments about his ego are misguided
Despite what anyone says about him, he takes a bottom-5 payroll and consistently squeezes much more out of it than the majority of GMs are able to do with much more. Only the Marlins and (very recently) the Rays seem to do a better job of it.
Sure, that might not get him to the playoffs every season, but the list of teams to go to 5 or more playoffs in the 2000’s is a short one and all who have did it with a significantly higher payroll. I would kill for the Cubs to have that kind of results for their significantly larger (over 2x) payroll.
As for this signing, it definitely seems like too much money given what Harden got, but Sheets definitely has the potential to be worth significantly more than $10m in WAR by seasons end.
I'll add the Twins to the list of teams too
5 playoff appearances and a relatively small budget. It helps that they have one of the best managers in the game, of course.
He isn't a bad GM
Nor am I not impressed with the A’s success.
But, it does seem that often he is placed on a pedestal as some sort of a genius, especially when it comes to making trades, which I completely disagree with.
Consider the major trades:
Mulder, Harden, Hudson, Haren, Holliday
For those five guys, he is really left with relatively little in terms of talent. Holliday and Haren are particularly noteworthy as he arguably gave up more to get them than he got in return.
Eamus Ursuli!
That I can agree with
I think he’s a great GM. But I certainly don’t understand the “don’t make a trade with Billy Beane because he’s gonna screw us!” sentiment. The man has a very constraining budget to work with and isn’t in a position of power while making these trades.
I do think his strength as a GM comes more from drafting, talent evaluation, some trades for players less significant than those on your list (especially trading away closers), and knowing how to get draft picks out of his better players departing the team.
Complex case, lotta' ins, lotta' outs
Because some of those guys Beane traded away were essentially traded for each other. Beane raked on Mulder (Haren and Calero for one effective season of Mulder), and blew it on Hudson. Not much of a haul for Harden, although how much could be expected? Plus maybe Hendry throws Beane Wuertz the following offseason for good will.
When he traded Haren (sub injured Mulder), he received Brett Anderson, Carlos Gonzalez, Carter and Cunningham. Anderson was pretty damn good for the A’s last year, Gonzalez was shipped to the Rockies for Holliday, if Carter or Cunningham contribute this will be a great deal for the A’s.
The Holliday trade was a bad one IMO — Street, Greg Smith, and Carlos Gonzalez (read 1/3 of Haren if Carter hits…or, taking it back further, 1/3 of Mulder) for Holliday….which essentially is now Taylor. I think the A’s may long regret dealing Gonzalez unless Taylor can make them forget about him…but Gonzalez really only cost 1/3 Mulder.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Jan 26, 2010 9:59 PM CST up reply actions
I would have loved Sheets but not at this price
$10M plus incentives is much, much more than I think he should have gotten. I would have done $6M plus incentives with a $10M option plus incentives for a second year if he met certain criteria for 2010.
I’m not going to lament missing out on him though.
by jerry morales rules on Jan 26, 2010 1:19 PM CST reply actions
It wasn't exactly a Roy Halladay-esque race to sign him.
To be honest, I didn’t hear any other teams mentioned as having even possible interest before this signing today. I know he worked out in Louisiana earlier in the week with quite a few scouts present (including, probably, at least one from the Cubs), but this was not a classic winter Hot Stove soap opera by any stretch, mainly because of the amount of money he was asking. Had he been willing to sign for a small, guaranteed amount plus a lot of money in incentives, I think there would have been a lot more interest. I don’t blame Hendry at all for not pursuing this further. I’m really surprised that Sheets did find a team willing to give him that much guaranteed money, especially since it didn’t seem they were really bidding against any other serious offers.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Solid move for the A's
They are trying to bide their time a bit, waiting on their power prospects and for their young arms to mature. That said, they had money to spend. They’ll get something for Sheets if they deal him, and if by some chance, they surprise in the AL West (not exactly a dominant division), then they could perhaps make a run. If Sheets gets hurt, eh, 1 year. Sure, money down the toilet, but 1 year.
He's going to have to earn that money and prove himself this year if...
… he want’s anything substantial in ’11 and beyond.
And where is this wiseman now?
Maybe he will come out of hiding.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
Two things...
Cubs were never in the bidding for Ben Sheets despite the declarations to the contrary around here. Cubs coulnd’t afford to keep Rich Harden, so Lord knows Sheets was out of the equation.
If Sheets is healthy by season start, this is a great signing by Oakland.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
but then again, you would have come back with the statement
“Horrible move by the Cubs. If he is injured by season start, then this was a terrible signing by Chicago.”
Start Sean Marshall!!
And where is your source that they were never in the bidding?
I know that you work in the Cardinals front office and you personally know Pujols, but where’s your proof this time? (sarcasm regarding Cards/Pujols)
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
Never in the bidding
Pretend what you want to pretend. If the Cubs had that sort of payroll flexibility for a risk proposition to begin with then RIch Harden would still be here.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
I still believe that the Cub's training staff had some sort of inside knowledge on his arm.
The Cubs have been noted for having some of the best training staff in the MLB. Maybe they saw something they didn’t like out of him and they told Jim that Rich is a no-no. Just a theory.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
or didnt want Mark Prior all over again
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Yeah. Exactly.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
That may be sarcasm,
But all at BCB know that, in reality, BLou is a Cardinals fan.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 26, 2010 8:51 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, and if we had gotten Sheets,
You would be complaining about how it was a terrible move on the part of Jim Hendry.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 26, 2010 8:49 PM CST up reply actions
Awful.
Dude doesn’t pitch for a year and he gets 10 million dollars after throwing for 15 minutes? Unbelievable.
I’m glad the Cubs didn’t sign him to this contract.
I hear Mark Prior is ready to throw for 10 minutes
/sarcasm
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Towels only, though. Off a flat surface.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
DRY towels, he's not strong enough to through damp ones
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
throw a baseball or a towel?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 27, 2010 5:25 PM CST up reply actions
a towel shaped like a baseball?
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
sad thing is they may sign Damon for a 4 million dollar contract
and he helped when the WS last year. Unfair
Start Sean Marshall!!
I'm looking at the player's perspective
you have a guy who was a huge part of a chamionship team who will only get 4 million.
you have a guy who hasn’t played in over a year who will get 10 million.
see what I’m saying?
Start Sean Marshall!!
Oh, I see. Yeah, I agree.
But I don’t think it’s as much as what you say as it is Damon going from 13M to 4M.
It’s about time that some of these players start taking massive pay cuts though. Hopefully it’s a sign of things to come in the future.
Can you say "overpaid"?
I wanted to see Ben Sheets in a Cubs uniform, but not for the kind of money he was asking for.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 26, 2010 8:50 PM CST up reply actions
I'll bet
that hendry and the cubs made what they thought was a reasonable offer for the guy, probably around the 3-4 mil range, and when it surpassed that, they said thanks but no thanks and moved on.
To me this is actually a smart non move by hendry, not getting himself involved in a bidding war for a guy who is oft injured and has no guarantee’s of staying healthy
Pretty shocking money from Oakland for a guy who didn't pitch last year.
Would have been nice to see him as a Cub but not at anywhere near that price.
At least he is out of our division…..
But see above.....
We’ll see. I doubt if he finishes in an A’s uni. And is the 10-11 miilion including all the incentives? Perhaps if he fails — most of the deal IS filled with incentives and the A’s are on the hook for very little.
Again, as I and others have said in this thread — great move by Beane.
This might not have been a good move for the Cubs, though. So, let’s wait.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jan 28, 2010 7:22 PM CST reply actions
amazing
10 million for a guy who missed the entire season. somewhere mark prior is smiling.
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