SB Nation Hall Of Fame Balloting
by Al Yellon on Jan 4, 2010 1:00 PM CST
in Chicago Cubs News
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PrintThe baseball bloggers of SB Nation decided to hold a vote similar in format to the BBWAA voting for induction into the Hall of Fame for 2010. The BBWAA results will be released on Wednesday, so we figured today would be a good time to release ours, to generate some discussion in advance of the official vote totals.
52 SBN ballots were returned; thus it took 39 votes for election. Only one player was elected; one other fell one vote short. Go past the jump to find the results.
| Player | % Vote | Total Votes |
| Bert Blyleven | 92.3% | 48 |
| Roberto Alomar | 73.1% | 38 |
| Barry Larkin | 63.5% | 33 |
| Tim Raines | 53.8% | 28 |
| Mark McGwire | 51.9% | 27 |
| Edgar Martinez | 48.1% | 25 |
| Alan Trammell | 40.4% | 21 |
| Andre Dawson | 32.7% | 17 |
| Lee Smith | 26.9% | 14 |
| Fred McGriff | 25.0% | 13 |
| Dale Murphy | 17.3% | 9 |
| Jack Morris | 13.5% | 7 |
| Don Mattingly | 11.5% | 6 |
| Harold Baines | 7.7% | 4 |
| Dave Parker | 3.8% | 2 |
| Kevin Appier | 3.8% | 2 |
| Ellis Burks | 1.9% | 1 |
| Ray Lankford | 1.9% | 1 |
| Shane Reynolds | 1.9% | 1 |
| Not receiving votes: Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, David Segui, Robin Ventura, Todd Zeile | ||
Here is a complete list of the voting from all SBN sites. My ballot is the first one listed under BCB; the other one went to Mike, our editorial cartoonist. Dissect to your heart's content.
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Edgar Martinez over Andre Dawson
Bloggers can rot in hell.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
This is stupid.
There’s nothing else to be said about the matter. Bad job, dudes.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Appier? Burks? Lankford? Reynolds?
Well, it’s probably safe to say that SBN is no different than the BBWAA. Curious – did someone turn in an blank ballot too?
Oh, and Al – why no love for Alomar? Quite possibly the best second baseman of all time and he’s not even on your ballot? Since he came up one vote short, I blame you. May a thousand fruit flies descend on your Big Gulp when you’re not looking…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Well, to be fair
Ray Lankford finished 18th in the MVP voting one year and 16th another year. He also led the league in triples in 1991!
Unbelievable. I spit on this list. PTOEEY!
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I've always been curious about the spelling of "ptoeey", so thank you.
I still think that “ptooey” is a viable alternative, though.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
I'm sure that's exactly what you do with one of those.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The Cubs need to pick up a PTOOEY
Part
Time
Outfield
Or
Extra Bench Guy
Yeoman
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
TWSS
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 4, 2010 5:46 PM CST up reply actions
this shows that there was NO BIAS on SB Nation
/sarcarm
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Ray Lankford?????
Is it too late to buy a bunch of newspapers and save them? Bloggers suck.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Kevin Appier got TWO!
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 4, 2010 1:31 PM CST up reply actions
Hey now
Anytime you get a chance to put in the 1997 Wild Pitch leader, you have to do it.
In the words of Crash Davis, fuck this fucking list.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
From 1990-96
He was very credible. After that, not so much.
And certainly not worthy to sniff the Hall of Fame.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
he is not a HOFer
he was a good pitcher, but is not a great one
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I think he's worthy of votes
especially insomuchas the HOF is merely a museum and a blogging ballot for guys that don’t have votes is merely a way of encouraging discussion
http://www.ranyontheroyals.com/2009/12/kevin-appier-retrospective.html
and I think he’s worthy of sniffing the HOF, whatever that means
especially since the HOF has been devalued thanks to years of the VC, Jim Rice, and soon to be Morris
We're talking about the same Kevin Appier, right?
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jan 4, 2010 4:25 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 3 recs
rec'd
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Appier is certainly underrated
He had a 131 ERA+ from 1990-99, which is pretty good for a primary decade. However, he was unfortunate to have pitched in a period that featured some of the best pitchers of all time. The 131 ERA+ is better than what Glavine and Smoltz had, but keep in mind that David Cone had a 134 ERA+. You can’t really go by ERA+ alone and a lot of the numbers just aren’t there for Kevin Appier.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Those numbers were for 1990-99
I don’t want to confuse people. David Cone’s 134 ERA+ is for 1990-99 only. Same method for Glavine, Smoltz and Appier.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
OK, you guys...
… if you think you can do better, SBN has set up a Google Doc for me for any BCB readers who would like to submit their own ballot.
Go here to cast your ballot. You don’t have to enter a user name, or make one up if you want — we’re not keeping track of those, just the votes.
I’ll release the BCB reader vote in a few days.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
PS.
Don’t forget to hit “submit” after you enter your votes!
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Thanks, Al.
That was pretty cool, but a pretty thin list of candidates on there.
"I lof to hit de home ron!"
Do this we will.
Prove wrong we will show you Worf-favored bloggers.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jan 4, 2010 4:22 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
May I sell my vote(s) to the highest bidder?
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
This isn't the U.S. Senate.
We have rules here.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 4, 2010 5:13 PM CST up reply actions
Soup Club's on for tomorrow night!
Bean Theme here we come!
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jan 4, 2010 5:25 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Lima is disqualified from consideration.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 4, 2010 5:31 PM CST up reply actions
Aaawwww Gee, and I thought I'd found an easy way to get rich
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
Agree on Blyleven, Not on Low Dawson Vote
I feel Blyleven is the most deserving of the candidates. I don’t agree with Edgar Martinez getting more votes than Andre Dawson. I know Martinez was an outstanding hitter, but I don’t think he had enough good seasons to be HoF worthy. Yeah, I’ll even admit Martinez was a much better hitter than Dawson. Edgar was mostly a DH in his career, who didn’t offer anything defensively at third base. Dawson was a great defensive player, who should be in the Hall with his good, if not great, offensive statistics taken into consideration.
As far as Martinez goes, he reminds a little of Bill Madlock and Don Mattingly. Both Madlock and Mattingly were outstanding hitters, but I don’t feel as if either one of them kept up their greatness long enough to be HoF’ers. I will say Mattingly did have some value with his glove at first base. I never thought much of Madlock’s fielding at third base. Also, HoF’er Kirby Puckett was a gold glover, if we want to talk about players with high batting averages that didn’t get close to 3000 hits. Martinez wasn’t any gold glover.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Hahahaha
This is ridiculous. Looks like these “baseball bloggers” need to pickup a new hobby/job.
Dawson in 2010.
Go Cubs. Go Irish.
"I was in awe every time I walked on to the field." -- Ryne Sandberg
"No player in baseball history worked harder, suffered more, or did it better than Andre Dawson. He's the best I've ever seen." -- Ryno
by ctinsley12bsu on Jan 4, 2010 4:46 PM CST via mobile reply actions
That's awful.
I’m completely in favor of Blyleven and in a couple years maybe Alomar to get up there. I like McGwire’s position here too, only because the numbers stand on their own merits and inspite of how against the “steroid era” of baseball I am, at the time he was one of the scariest hitters in the game putting up unreal numbers.
This is where the “can’t keep everyone out of the Hall” ideal comes in. Even if you don’t like them, I think the numbers speak for themselves, which is why I think McGwire belongs in there.
Terrible list otherwise. Dawson in 2010.
ridiculous
only 53% selected Raines? What a joke.
I am amazed at the lack of support for Rock.
"I expected much better than that".....tHan
Raines
He’s gotten dismal support for the Hall. I don’t understand why he hasn’t gotten more votes myself. I think he should get strong consideration for induction, but he hasn’t and won’t unfortunately to be realistic. Maybe, if he had experienced his prime years with the Yankees instead of the Expos, he would be getting more support. I was glad in 1996 when he got a ring in pinstripes being that he is a former Memphis Chick(asaw) player.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Yeah, it's tough when you played mostly for a team that doesn't exist anymore.
Do any Montreal baseball writers get HOF votes? Are there any Montreal baseball writers left to get a campaign going? There are lots of stats geeks getting campaigns going, which probably doesn’t help all that much… anyone that would listen to them knows the stats already. Really too bad, the guy had a great career.
This is one reason I'm hoping Dawson gets elected
I’m hoping that Dawson will make a plea for his former teammate Tim Raines in the say that Sandberg did for him a few years ago. Sabermetrically, Raines has a great case. He has 390 win shares and 1,636 runs created, which is nothing short of amazing for a leadoff hitter. For your traditional counting numbers, he scored 1,571 times and has an OBP that is nearly a full .100 better than his batting average. He walked about 1.38 times more than he struck out, which is well over a third more walks than strikeouts. Guess what? That’s better than Rickey, who walked only 1.29 times more than he struck out, or more than a quarter.
That number is a bit deceiving, so one has to consider the percentage of walks per plate appearance. For Raines, that 12.84 percent. For Henderson, it’s a whopping 16.41 percent. There’s no doubt that Henderson had the better overall career, but I think it’s important to keep some things in perspective. The Hall of Fame isn’t just for guys like Mantle or Mays, but it’s also for guys like Snider.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
808 SB, 146 CS
Raines was amazingly successful at stealing bases.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
I voted for Dawson, Blyleven, Alomar and Morris
Upon further reflection, I should also add Larkin. The rest, I’m OK with being out.
And also upon further reflection, I think the proper way to go is PTOOEY!
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Alomar and Dawson are in
Blyleven is screwed for at least one more year…which is a complete joke.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
I've argued that Dawson shouldn't be in the Hall
but this is idiotic. He’s a hell of a lot closer call than these clowns have him.
100% agree
how is Mark Mcgwire getting more votes then him, the only thing he leads Dawson in is Hr’s
i think Big Mac has him in pimples from using "some substance"
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Big Mac has a good Hall case
Until recently, I continued to support the players that used steroids. However, I changed my mind on this issue not because I think inducting them into the Hall of Fame would be a bad idea, but because people are using their careers to justify not voting for players like Fred McGriff. I’m sorry, but I have more respect for a clean player that put up Hall of Fame numbers rather than players like Mark McGwire or Sammy Sosa that had to rely on something else to help pad their stats. Sorry, but that’s how it is. McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Clemens, Ramirez, A. Rodriguez and Palmeiro do not belong in the Hall of Fame and nor should their inflated numbers be used as a yardstick for other players in the era. It’s not right and it’s not fair.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I disagree
and here is my thought behind why
The Hall of Fame, and what to do with the current crop of players
I understand and do not think you are wrong in your opinon, but I will stick to mine, as I detailed in the link last June.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
LOL
Dawson is the only bonafide candidate in the group, and he’s iffy at best.
Whoever said Edgar Martinez should be in over Dawson is a boob. That’s like electing a punter in the NFL.
Idiots.
by 41YearsandCounting on Jan 5, 2010 7:34 AM CST reply actions
IMO
Ray Guy is a punter that should be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Joe Horrigan, the historian of the Pro Football Hall of Fame once said: “He’s the first punter you could look at and say: ‘He won games.’”
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Maynard might be the second, with how he has done for the Bears
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Agreed
Excellent career, wouldn’t mind seeing him in there
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
You're wrong.
Alomar, Larkin, and Trammel have good cases, probably in that order, knowing what we do about the value of middle-infield defense, and knowing each of their defensive reputations. Edgar has an interesting case, but he falls short for me. He’s not a punter — he’s maybe a pass-rushing defensive end that was often taken out on running downs. And a damn good one, at that, although he got kind of a late start to his career and so missed key years for racking up counting stats.
And then there’s Blyleven. He’s a bona-fide candidate.
And then there’s Tim Raines, who’s more than a bona-fide candidate. He’s a bona-fide Hall-of-Fame baseball player.
That's just being a stupid NL homer honestly.
Paul Moliter made it, he played as DH. Edgar Martinez technical stats are among the best ever. I’d say he’s got a better canidacy then anyone else on the list save maybe Alomar and Bert.
Breaking News: I'm currently in the process of writing "I will not say and/or type "that word" 1,000 times.
Molitor played only the last half of his career primarily as DH.
Before that he was a plus 2B. And 3B. Oh, and did you notice his 3319 hits — more than 1000 more than Martinez? And .306 lifetime BA (only six points lower than Martinez)? And over 500 stolen bases?
Edgar Martinez was a good hitter for a long time — but one-dimensional. Comparing him to Molitor is an insult to Molitor.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
+1
Molitor had many more dimensions to his game than Edgar Martinez. I don’t think Martinez’s numbers are impressive enough to get in the hall. To be a DH and get elected, I think you need David Ortiz type numbers.
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Posnanski just did his column
and once again voted against Dawson.
May he rot in hell.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Send it back and get your money back
I am so sick of smarmy sportswriters standing at the gates.
OBP was a stat no one paid any attention to 25 years ago. Now it’s the thing keeping him out.
Dawson was paid to hit homers and drive in runs. He wasn’t paid to stand there and watch pitches an 1/8-inch off the plate and hope to get the call.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Yeah, that was Milton Bradley's job.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 5, 2010 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
OBP Overrated for Power Hitters?
Okay, I get that you would rather have a power hitter with a high OBP than a low OBP. Dawson’s .323 OBP is admittedly way lower than one would want. I feel that slugging percentage is a more important statistic for a 3-4-5 hitter. On-base percentage is more important for 1-2 hitters. Gameboard ended up being a good hitter in the 2 slot for the Cubs because of his ability to get on base, but he didn’t show much power in 2009.
Also, first base is open many times when a power hitter walks. In certain circumstances, a 3-4-5 hitter could help the team more by taking a hack at a pitch a little bit out of the strike zone to drive in runners in scoring position rather than taking a walk with first base open that doesn’t advance any runners. I do acknowledge that taking a walk adds a baserunner that the next hitter can drive home. My point is it’s not necessarily a good thing to take a walk.
Don’t take that to mean that Andre didn’t drive me crazy with chasing pitches way out of the strike zone. Dawson should’ve taken more bases on balls. I believe way too much is being made of that .323 OBP.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
You don't walk into the Hall of Fame
You hit into it.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
On-base percentage isn't just about standing on a base and maybe scoring.
It’s also — nay, mostly — about not making outs. And it matters up and down the lineup. And it’s always mattered, whether people knew it or not. But people did know it. Joe Morgan and Pete Rose knew that what mattered was getting on base by any means possible.
In basketball or football you can give your team more possessions by speeding up the pace of your offense, but you give the other team more possessions, too. In baseball you can give your team more chances to score without giving the opponent the same. You do that by getting on base.
When you make outs you run down the clock on your offense. When you make outs almost 68% of the time, that’s a lot of clock. That’s why OBP correlates with offensive production better than just about any other simple stat (defined: something you could keep track of in your head for several players while watching a game). If your weakness is getting on base, that’s a lot more significant than just about any other single weakness you can have in your game.
Dawson did just about everything well except get on base. And he did the other stuff well enough, and for long enough, that he has a pretty good HoF case despite that. It’s pretty close. Intelligent, thoughtful people have weighed in on both sides. I don’t always agree with Posnanski (the first time I read his column I thought he was dead wrong in approach and conclusion), but generally he’s pretty thoughtful and I definitely respect his approach to HoF voting.
by aldimond on Jan 5, 2010 8:13 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
To be honest, I'm really torn on this issue.
I’m a big believer in the importance of OBP – not only because you can’t score runs unless you get on base, but also because of the reasons aldimond goes into above. Then again, a middle-of-the-order guy who slugged the way Dawson did, coupled with all his other skills, still makes him HoF-worthy to me, but that could be just the Cubs homer in me talking.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Dawson's OBP
I believe if it was .350 or higher that he would already be in the Hall. I do realize that the .323 OBP should be a negative. I don’t have the time to do the research. I’m thinking of the batters that came up behind Dawson in the lineup during his career. I don’t know how many times Gary Carter or Larry Parrish batted right behind him in the order with Montreal. I don’t think Sandberg batted behind Dawson that much. Maybe, Mark Grace did some. If Dawson didn’t have good hitters behind him, then you couldn’t fault him for being on the aggressive side.
I will state again that Dawson should have less aggressive. I wish he could have had some seasons in which took just 50 bases on balls. I don’t think that would have been too much to ask from an aggressive hitter. I do hope Dawson gets good news this afternoon.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Me too - seems a shame to keep him out of the Hall for an odd .025 in OBP or so.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
this seems like a very narrow view of dawson's merits. posnanski is one of the brightest writers out there.
did you read why he didn’t vote for dawson? being dedicated to the importance of not making outs doesn’t seem to be grounds for damning someone to hell.
beyond the boxscore took a look at the value of the candidates recently. they put together a pretty convincing case that dawson was about the seventh most valuable of all the position players out there.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
out there = on the ballot. sorry for any confusion.
My daddy told me, lookin' back, The best friend you'll have is a railroad track So when I was 13 said, I'm rollin' my own, And I'm leavin' Missouri and I'm never comin' home . . . Now I woke me up with a cardinal bird, And when I wanna talk, He hangs on every word. . . And I'm lost at the bottom of the world. - Tom Waits
As a Cubs fan, I'd vote 6 of these guys in
Blylevin, Raines, Martinez, Larkin, and Alomar are obvious yes’s (and if anyone would like to disagree with that, I’m open to an argument!), and hte homer in me puts Hawk in. So yeah, there’s my 6.
Breaking News: I'm currently in the process of writing "I will not say and/or type "that word" 1,000 times.
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