Congratulations, Andre Dawson! You're In The Hall Of Fame!
by Al Yellon on Jan 6, 2010 1:05 PM CST
in News
400 comments
At last, congratulations to Andre Dawson, who was elected to baseball's Hall of Fame today with 77.9% of the votes, 15 more than needed.
Surprisingly to me at least, Bert Blyleven didn't make it this year (missed by five votes), and neither did Roberto Alomar, on his first try -- Alomar was eight votes short.
Great news for the Hawk and Cubs fans!
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CONGRATS!!!!!!!!!
I hated to bat against Drysdale. After he hit you he'd come around, look at the bruise on your arm and say, 'Do you want me to sign it?'- Mickey Mantle
by Sioux City Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 1:06 PM CST reply actions
Should be interesting to see which cap the Hall of Fame gives him.
My guess is a Montreal cap, but good to see another Cub in the Hall.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
The Hall of Fame decides.
They took the decision out of the hands of the player when teams began dangling jobs and retired numbers to choose their team cap.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Well the Yankees and Padres tried to pull out all the stops to get Dave Winfield to choose them.
And the White Sox and Red Sox fought over Carlton Fisk, too. And that’s when the Hall stepped in.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Seeing as how Fisk was a catcher...
…I always thought the best solution there would have been for him to wear his cap backwards.
Problem solved! ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
An excellent solution.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I think the player chooses...
I think
I hated to bat against Drysdale. After he hit you he'd come around, look at the bruise on your arm and say, 'Do you want me to sign it?'- Mickey Mantle
by Sioux City Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 1:11 PM CST up reply actions
No, the Hall chooses.
Andre had his best years in Montreal — but got his most “fame” as a Cub.
I’m guessing they pick the Cubs.
I’m SHOCKED that Blyleven didn’t make it. Alomar, not so much — it was his first year on the ballot. He’ll make it soon.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'm not shocked on Blyleven
There are too many “neanderthals” in the BBWAA who won’t look at any evidence and will only say “I didn’t think he was a HoFer when he played.”
On the other hand, I don’t know why those people aren’t voting for Steve Garvey, who everyone thought was a Hall of Famer when he played.
That'd be a shame for the Expos legacy if that happened
Odds are he’s their last shot at getting a player in the Hall, unless Tim Raines has a sudden spike in popularity.
Isn't Carter in ?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 6, 2010 1:29 PM CST up reply actions
Oops
Good call. Still somewhat of a testament to a franchise nobody cares about that he’s (potentially) the only one.
A good number of players who will go in
Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Vlad Guerrero, Andre Dawson… had time with the Expos.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
All of them have appear to me as having less of a chance
of going in as an Expo than Andre, and yet it seems fairly likely Andre ends up going in as a Cub.
My guesses are
Johnson goes in as a Mariner, Martinez goes in as a Red Sox. Not sure Vlad makes it.
He might not
His knees might be shot. He was on an easy HoF path. But if he does go in, he spent more time with the Expos than the Angels.
Won the WS with the Angels though
Those sort of things seem to be fairly important to the committee.
No, he didn't
Vlad didn’t join the Angels until 2004. The Angels won the WS in 2002. Tim Salmon was the RF for the 2002 Angels.
if...
you think Dawson is an HOF (which I do)… you have to put Vlad in. He put up better numbers and won an MVP. He’s no different than Dawson. Dawson was a better guy, Vlad a better player.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 6, 2010 10:16 PM CST up reply actions
I agree they are incredibly similar
But one does have to take the the different eras into account. Even so, Vlad should be in. If he has anything left in his tank before he retires, that would probably seal the deal.
I think he's going to get in.
If Dawson got in, Vlad will too. Their stories are just too similar.
In fact, if Vlad retired tomorrow, I think he’d get in. That .321 career average, with 400 HR and 1300 RBI will be sufficient.
And for the new-age stats, his CAREER OPS is 145. There are HOFers who have only a couple seasons of 145+ OPS.
He’s in, and he’s going to get “more” in over the next couple of years.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 6, 2010 1:45 PM CST up reply actions
Schilling As Diamondback?
Schilling was a better pitcher with Arizona than he was with Philly or Boston. He won a World Series co-MVP with Randy Johnson with the D-Backs. Schilling may or may not make it to Cooperstown.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Schilling will probably make it
I’d probably put him in as a Phillie. 8 1/2 years in Philadelphia versus 3 1/2 years in Arizona. He was actually in Boston longer than Arizona.
Interesting Case
If one goes by length of service, it’s Philly hands down. If one goes by where he had his best seasons, it would be Arizona. He did win two rings with Boston, but he had two of his three 20+ win seasons with the D-Backs.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Schilling
He better get in… but he’s about the same case as Morris (although Schilling has a much better case). Never won the Cy and didn’t reach any hallmark numbers… but man could he pitch when he was healthy.
I’d pick Boston for his cap too.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 6, 2010 10:17 PM CST up reply actions
Big differences
between Morris and Schilling: ERA and strikeouts.
Morris’ career ERA is 3.90. No starting pitcher in the Hall is anywhere near that number. Schilling’s is 3.46, in a worse era for pitchers. Both played in hitters parks for most of their careers, so that’s not an issue.
Morris had 2478 Ks. Schilling was 3116, above the magic 3000 line, in about 600 fewer innings.
Morris had more wins by virtue of pitching most of his career in the age of four man rotations. Schilling had forty fewer wins, but also 90 fewer starts and a better winning percentage. Schilling’s career was longer, even if he had fewer innings.
I don’t think their cases are even close. Schilling is a lot better than Morris.
by Josh77 on Jan 7, 2010 12:22 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
+1 and rec'd
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
no doubt...
Schilling was a much better pitcher… unfortunately he spent the first part of his career jerked around between leagues by teams that didn’t know what they had. He was part of TWO of the worst trades in the history of baseball. His first three teams were constantly trying to use him in the pen. Then when he would have got rolling in Philadelphia he had injury problems.
You can’t just say Morris benefited from four-man rotations. Morris went out and finished his games.
To say that means you can say schilling benefited from having five-man rotations and specialized bullpens, keeping his fragile body even stronger.
Morris is unfairly judged because of a couple bad years at the end of his career sandwiched around some of the greatest post season performances possible.
Morris was a major part of three title winners… and a weak part of a fourth. I think Schilling might be the only pitcher of our era who can come close to saying that.
This wasn’t a Morris vs Schilling statement or a Morris before or over Schilling statement.
I want them both in. As far as 80s pitchers goes… you can have anybody you want and I’ll take Jack Morris as one of my top 5 pitchers. I’m ok with his ERA and win totals… neither are all that predictive of their value, and you know that Josh.
Schilling pitched 18 years (you’re not really going to give him credit for 88 and 89 are you?). Morris pitched 17. Not a big difference there.
Schilling wasn’t a hall of famer before he went to Boston and won his ring there.
Morris is a hall of famer because of what he did in 84 and 91. None of those performances were offense dependent. They guy pitched 2 CG wins with a 2.00 ERA against the Padres. And of course we all know his exploit in Game 7 against the Blue Braves.
Give him a 4.90 ERA and I still want him in my Hall of Fame.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2010 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
The reason Schilling was "jerked around"...
… was because, frankly, he was kind of a jerk. He knew he was good, but didn’t know how to harness it, be a good teammate; he was about to wash out of baseball before Roger Clemens told him to shape up.
I’ll respectfully disagree with you about Morris. You put him in the HoF for three World Series wins? Don Larsen won four WS games and threw a perfect game. Want to put him in, too?
Morris was a very good pitcher for a long time. Schilling was better.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
AL...
I thought I made it clear this wasn’t a Morris is better than Schilling argument. I believe Schilling should be in the hall first ballot. I don’t think he’ll get there… but it’s not based on Schilling’s “benchmark” stats. It’s based off of his accomplishments in the post-season and some other pretty incredible seasons, even when playing second-banana to one of the greatest pitchers of all time.
Don Larsen won less games than he lost on his career, which didn’t last that long. He’s not really applicable to either player. His teams also lost more WS appearances than they won. Morris won the 84 WS for the Tigers, pitching two CGs and you can’t deny what he did in Game 7 in 1991 wasn’t one of the greatest sports peformances of your lifetime.
I had to Wikipedia Don Larsen, because the PG was all I really knew of him. The next day’s headline said, “The imperfect man pitched the perfect game”. Casey Stengel himself even said it wasn’t even the best pitched game by a Yankee in that series. Nobody said that about Jack Morris the day after Game 7 in 91. That was the cap to a great career.
After crap like the steroid scandals, stats stopped meaning as much to me as character and accomplishment. Morris has both to me… I don’t see how you can argue for Dawson and not want Morris in the Hall.
Dawson doesn’t get in the Hall if he doesn’t win the MVP in 1987. There’s a long, long list of people who are much smarter than I who think he shouldn’t have won it that year… and I don’t think he should have either, and I’m one of his biggest fans.
Jack Morris has accomplishments that no statistical metric can take away from him. I would count on him to win a big game, because he more-than proved he could do it. His 254 wins and 31st-best career strikeout total are just there to me. He also started two All-Star games (not a big deal, but he still did it), ridiculous number of opening day nods (like 12 in a row, IIRC), back when that really meant something about the stature of a pitcher and was in the top 5 in CGs in 8 different years.
I’ll finish this below, because I’m rambling.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 8, 2010 2:26 AM CST up reply actions
ERA is not predictive of value?
Sure, there are some limitations because they don’t count “unearned” runs, but of the traditional stats, ERA is probably the best stat.
And Morris fares worse when you get into the advanced sabermetric stats.
As far as wins go, I’ll grant you that—except that Morris’ win total is his BEST argument for going into the Hall of Fame. So you are arguing against yourself.
As far as Morris “finishing games”, Morris led the league in complete games exactly once-and even that was a tie with Dave Stewart. Curt Schilling led his league or was tied for the league lead in complete games four times. Morris led the league in innings pitched once. Schilling, twice
Morris was a durable pitcher who pitched for a long time for some teams with very, very good offenses, which allowed him to rack up some nice win totals. If you don’t count wins, I’m not sure what your argument for Morris in the Hall of Fame is except that you liked him.
The argument...
Has very little to do with his win total.
Jamie Moyer already has more career wins, including a great WS performance to get himself a ring… and I think the guy is a saint, and I don’t want him in the Hall (unless he finds some miraculous way of getting to 300 wins. That would be too freaky an accomplishment to not get in without having to buy a ticket).
Point being, 250 wins doesn’t impress me. The only thing impressive about Morris’ wins is he led the 1980s in wins… and that’s only impressive because he only got 6 in 89.
Is being number one in a category the only way you are great? He was in the top 6 in CGs 9 times… top 6 in innings pitched 8 times, top 6 in shutouts 8 times.
A player is more than what turns up bold and italicized on baseball reference.
Morris has the 84 WS (2 CG victories and a 2.00 ERA), Game 7 91 WS (and three other wins in that post season) and a long, productive career filled with great seasons. He’s one of only 2 players who have won 2 Babe Ruth Awards, given to the WS MVP… the other is Sandy Koufax.
I did not know this about him until I just looked at his bio… he pitched a no-hitter on the NBC Game of the Week in 1984. Think about how cool that is. He’s the only pitcher to do it to this day.
He started 3 All-Star games and 14 consecutive opening days for his team, back when that actually meant something.
It’s a shame that a guy like Jim Thome is going to waltz into the hall of fame because he put up 500 homers, yet he never did a damn thing memorable his entire career besides wear high socks. Yet guys like Jack Morris, Andre Dawson and Edgar Martinez have to struggle to get in.
Yes, they have their flaws, but we’ll be remembering their exploits long after we’ve pretty much forgotten benchmark guys like Jim Thome and Don Sutton.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 8, 2010 5:42 AM CST up reply actions
So wait.
You’re basically saying Morris should be in because he’s famous, right? Throwing a no-hitter just because it happened to be on “Game of the Week” isn’t really a qualification. BTW, I happened to be at that game — it was at the old Comiskey Park vs. the White Sox, the only no-hitter I had attended in person until Z’s.
Morris was a very good pitcher for a long time — but not Hall-worthy, IMO.
Too many people — not you — focused on Andre Dawson’s OBP and said he shouldn’t be in as a result. They ignored his power-speed combination, matched by fewer than ten people in ML history.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
yeah...
it’s the hall of fame. F-A-M-E!
In borderline cases, that should break the tie.
There’s an end to your sentence that you keep repeating… “very good pitcher for a long time”… that did spectacular things that nobody will forget for a long time.
You can disagree with his credentials all you want… but don’t leave that out just because you don’t agree, or want Blyleven in more or whatever… Morris deserves credit and respect for those things.
Very good pitcher for a long time with unforgettable achievements makes someone a hall of famer to me. It doesn’t have to make him a hall of famer to you, and I’m ok with that.
Your standards are loftier than my standards. I’m ok with that too.
I’ll be sad for Jack Morris… and Twins and Tigers fans, if he doesn’t get in. Just like I would hope they would have understood my sadness if the Hawk didn’t get in.
I’ll also celebrate their happiness when Morris does get in… and I don’t see enough of that for us Dawson fans right now. Something that has big-time stick up my craw (or however you say that).
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 8, 2010 4:00 PM CST up reply actions
btw
if 3000 or even 3500 strikeouts alone got you in the hall of fame, Blyleven wouldn’t have had to wait 15 years to get in (assuming he gets in in next year). It’s not a benchmark number or a magic line.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2010 2:35 PM CST up reply actions
It should be.
The voters are idiots. Blyleven should ahve been in long ago.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Fine
…but they’re many of the same voters who made these guys famous in the first place with their wacky Cy Young and MVP and Gold Glove voting.
They’re also the same guys who just voted Andre Dawson into the Hall.
I don’t need a magic line or a benchmark to tell me a guy should get in… Nor should I high ERA or a low OBP keep someone out. Everybody has their own case, and there’s no one way to be a Hall of Famer.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 8, 2010 5:51 AM CST up reply actions
Guessing Mariner
Just because he’ll be the first really great Mariner eligible (since I believe Griffey’s playing next season). The Hall will probably want the M’s represented as soon as they can. Plus his numbers in Seattle were just sick.
But his numbers with Arizona were even better.
"I can just see it: Post 'Intervention? Why would I need an intervention?' And then he'd +1 himself."
No argument
His D-backs numbers were also great. just guessing that since the M’s have been around longer they’d get first crack at him. But no problem at all if he goes in as a D-Back.
His most defining moment
was as a D’Back. Coming out for Game 7.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Although...
His performance in the one game playoff when the M’s went to their first playoffs deserves some merit too.
And
Four straight Cy Youngs and a 20 strike out game
"I can just see it: Post 'Intervention? Why would I need an intervention?' And then he'd +1 himself."
Yeah
I’ll always think of Randy Johnson as a Diamondback.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
by DGU on Jan 6, 2010 9:48 PM CST up reply actions
NO WAY
His defining moments came in 95 when he shut out the Angels to get the Mariners to their first ever playoff appearance. Shut out the Yankees in his first playoff start… and then came out the bullpen like an Olympian God three days later. Without him, there would be no Edgar Martinez double down the line to score Junior.
It’s very close between the two hats for El Unit Grande. But nobody can refute he became famous while a Mariner.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 6, 2010 10:20 PM CST up reply actions
D-backs
didn’t even exist when Randy was dominating as a Mariner… for more seasons than he did with the Diamondbacks.
I’ll stipulate that some of his greatest achievements came in Arizona. But he did great, great things as a Mariner including his first Cy Young and no-hitter.
Only thing he didn’t do with the Mariners first was win a WS and pitch a perfect game. Those are the only things that even make this worth discussing.
I’ll put his ’95 season up against any of his four Arizona Cy Youngs.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 6, 2010 10:28 PM CST up reply actions
Ichiro is going in as a Mariner
I don’t see why they need to hurry to get a Mariner in. There still isn’t anyone in the Hall with an Angels cap.
Certain unless Ichiro quits baseball in spring training
2010 is certainly Griffey’s last year and he is a very clear first ballot guy. Could be close to unanimous with the no-PED relief votes for him.
Won't be unanimous
There’s a few voters who think that if Babe Ruth wasn’t unanimous, then no one should be unanimous. I know there’s at least one voter who refuses to vote for anyone who went on strike, so that eliminates anyone who played between 1972 and 1995.
Jeter is going to be the test case. He probably won’t go in unanimously, but I bet he comes within two or three votes of it.
...but he won't be.
And you know it.
People will probably file a blank ballot or something… say if he was that great, why didn’t he win more WS… it’s not like he didn’t have opportunity. And complain about his lack of post-season success (but then still don’t put Blyleven and Morris in with their great post season success).
Al, there’s no lack of hypocrisy when it comes to hall of fame voting.
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2010 2:38 PM CST up reply actions
100% agreed.
Which is why they should take it away from the BBWAA — a fairly large percentage of the voters either have an axe to grind, or are retired and haven’t been at a baseball game in ten years.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Edmonds might
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Edmonds
if he goes in, will go as a Cardinal. 6 years in Anaheim, 8 years and a WS championship in StL.
He won't go in as a Cub???
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 4:08 PM CST up reply actions
I kid, I kid.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 4:14 PM CST up reply actions
hell go in with the padres
Eric Hanna and FAN of the BULLS, the two greatest BCBers in the history of mankind
by jesus christos on Jan 6, 2010 4:17 PM CST up reply actions
Nolan Ryan
He should have been inducted as an Angel. That was ridiculous with his being inducted as a Ranger. The player made the cap choice back in Ryan’s day.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Vlad Guerrero is a possibility,
If he plays well.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah , but only Vlad
has a chance to go in with an Expo cap. Pedro will go in as a Red Sox. RJ as a Mariner or Diamondback.
Don’t forget, Pete Rose played half a season with the Expos. Got his 4000 hit there.
I'm going to disagree with you there.
Pedro, in his prime, was this era’s Sandy Koufax. His level of domination over a six-year stretch was simply ridiculous.
Now, Blyleven should be in the Hall of Fame. But Pedro is better than him, in my opinion.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
true, but if Blyleven isn't in because he doesn't have 300 wins
then neither should Pedro. I’m going based on the standards the HoF voters have essentially implemented.
IMO, both should be in..
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
That's not the only reason Blyleven isn't in.
I don’t understand some voters’ infatuation with 300 wins as a magic number needing to be reached.
Bert will be in next year and Pedro will be in within the next 6 years, I’d guess.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
<300 Wins
Fergie Jenkins – 284
Jim Palmer – 266
I wanted to pick two HoF pitchers whose careers overlapped a lot with Blyleven’s.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Bert's 1984 Season
He was 19-7 with a 2.87 ERA for an Indians team that finished 75-87. To have a record 12 games over. 500 for a team that finishes 12 games under. 500 is impressive. It’s not unprecedented, but it’s still not that common.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Good point
He could get in and that would be a tough call. Spent eight years in Montreal, six in Anaheim. Four all-star appearances for each team. MVP while with the Angels. Top 10 in MVP voting twice in Montreal and four times with Anaheim. Three silver slugger awards in NL, four in the AL.
Harry Caray: Marshall is going back to LA to get cocaine for his injured foot.
Steve Stone: Harry, that’s Novocaine.
by Julio Zuleta's Voodoo on Jan 6, 2010 1:38 PM CST up reply actions
If he gets in, I'd say he goes as an Expo...
his best (and most) years were there. He’s likely to switch teams soon, and his remaining years are not likely to be as productive.
It's a very similar situation to Dawson.
Shockingly similar, in fact. Rangy power/speed guy spends his early career playing RF in relative anonymity at Stade Olympique, then moves on to a bigger market, wins an MVP, has problems with his knees and winds up hobbling around for many years, still productive, but progressively less so.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 6, 2010 1:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
40-40
His two near 40-40 seasons came as an Expo. He hasn’t really done much as an Angel except win the MVP and not get them back to the WS (not his fault except the injuries)… and now he’s moving on. I say they’ll pick the Expos, even though they went downhill into extinction while he was there too (not that they had far to fall).
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 6, 2010 10:24 PM CST up reply actions
As I recall though
He wanted to go in as a Met.
Oops
That previous post was supposed to be about Gary Carter
IIRC
The HOF will take into consideration a player’s choice as to which team he represents. But, the HOF does make the final choice. If Dawson says he want to go in as a Marlin, I think they say no. However, if he says he wants to go in as a Cubs, they might allow it.
I think you could make the argument as either a Cub or an Expo.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- George Santayana (1863-1952)
by cubfred on Jan 6, 2010 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Coco Laboy
should be in before Boots Day.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2010 12:59 PM CST up reply actions
Do you think the fact that the Expos no longer
exist will be factored in? Current teams having living hall of famers is a big draw and good for all of baseball. Given there are good arguments for Hawk as a Cub and much of his “fame” here, I hope they make the Chicago friendly choice.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
I believe Dave Winfield going in as a Padre was the end of it
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
He said a couple
of years ago that he wants to go in as a Cub. I hope he gets his wish.
OK I don't know shit about basketball.
by SoulEater7 on Nov. 5, 2009 9:51 PM CST
Told Levine he wanted to go as a Cub
The Hall of Fame will decide whether Dawson wears a Cubs or Expos hat on his Hall of Fame plaque. Dawson has already told me his preference would be wearing a Cubs hat, and you would have to think that because the Expos are now defunct that Dawson may get his wish.
by JCD on Jan 6, 2010 5:18 PM CST up reply actions
Let's hope he gets his wish.
OK I don't know shit about basketball.
by SoulEater7 on Nov. 5, 2009 9:51 PM CST
Re: sig
No mention of the Orange Bowl?
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 5:36 PM CST up reply actions
shocking
that Alomar didn’t get in. Blyleven didn’t get in because five people submitted blank ballots.
But congrats to Andre!
Probably
But I think the biggest factor are a bunch of voters who believe that there are two Hall of Fames—the regular one and the “First Ballot Hall of Famer” Hall. A lot of people won’t vote for anyone on the first ballot unless they’re as good as Willie Mays.
I was so hoping for my personal fan trifecta - an Indian (Alomar), a Pirate (Blyleven), and a Cub (Dawson)
I guess I’ll have to settle for one out of three – .333 is pretty good on the field, but kinda sucks in real life.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
The vote:
Andre Dawson 420 (77.9%), Bert Blyleven 400 (74.2%), Roberto Alomar 397 (73.7%), Jack Morris 282 (52.3%), Barry Larkin 278 (51.6%), Lee Smith 255 (47.3%), Edgar Martinez 195 (36.2%), Tim Raines 164 (30.4%), Mark McGwire 128 (23.7%), Alan Trammell 121 (22.4%), Fred McGriff 116 (21.5%), Don Mattingly 87 (16.1%), Dave Parker 82 (15.2%), Dale Murphy 63 (11.7%), Harold Baines 33 (6.1%), Andres Galarraga 22 (4.1%), Robin Ventura 7 (1.3%), Ellis Burks 2 (0.4%), Eric Karros 2 (0.4%), Kevin Appier 1 (0.2%), Pat Hentgen 1 (0.2%), David Segui 1 (0.2%), Mike Jackson 0, Ray Lankford 0, Shane Reynolds 0, Todd Zeile 0.
Or the David Segui vote
Someone must have been swayed by Hentgen’s Cy Young award.
by Jody Jody Davis on Jan 6, 2010 1:18 PM CST up reply actions
Definitely a writer who was on the juice
or someone who wanted to recognize him aas the godfather fo steroids
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
Sometimes those votes are gifts from local sportswriters
I seem to remember a Milwaukee writer who was a friend of Don Money’s giving him a one year just so Money could say he received one. I don’t see anything wrong with that as long as that one vote doesn’t prevent the election of someone who truly deserves to be there.
I’m really surprised by how many votes Edgar Martinez received. There are a lot of complete players on that list who should have finished higher.
by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Jan 6, 2010 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
Ooops
Should have read, “giving him a vote one year…”
by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Jan 6, 2010 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
Edgar Martinez deserves induction IMO
The DH has been a part of baseball for nearly forty years now. If we’re going to let relief pitchers into Cooperstown, then what’s wrong with the best player at DH?
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I have no problem
with Edgar Martinez in the HOF. Frank Thomas, too.
I despise the DH, but as Ace says, that position is a long-established part of baseball. You just can’t disallow from induction an entire category of player.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 2:07 PM CST up reply actions
I tend to disagree....
BUT… I think you’ve made the best argument for it.
Here’s another variation of it. If Ozzie Smith can get in basically because of his defense or Ted Williams because of his hitting, then Edgar should go in.
Yes, Ozzie had to stand there with a bat in his hand from time to time and Williams had to kill time in the outfield between plate appearances, but we all know what they really got in for.
It shouldn’t be that big of a leap to go from a guy who played token defense to someone who literally played no defense.
For me, it is, but I admit the sand is shifting on me.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I'm ok with that, except
If the best player at DH has comparable stats to a position player that isn’t in.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 6, 2010 2:17 PM CST up reply actions
Should I rename myself Jody-Davis? ;)
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 4:06 PM CST up reply actions
I'd be in favor...
…of allowing everyone down to and including Mattingly in (and maybe Dale Murphy and Baines, too…no Dave Parker, though). Lot of great players on that list, many of whom have supposed “flaws” in their numbers that the so-called experts believe make them not-Hall-worthy.
I think Dave Parker has a good case
327 win shares plus all his career numbers gives him a good case. I’ve had to revise my opinion on Parker and I now believe he is a Hall of Famer. I feel the same way about Dick Allen, who honestly deserves it too.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Long way to go for McGwire
I remember Pat Hentgen from my Nintendo RBI Baseball game hahaha
Join the BCB Flickr Group: http://flickr.com/groups/bleedcubbieblue
I agree.
Sincerely,
Harry Caray: Marshall is going back to LA to get cocaine for his injured foot.
Steve Stone: Harry, that’s Novocaine.
by Julio Zuleta's Voodoo on Jan 6, 2010 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
I highly doubt it
I think it would be a fitting tribute since the Nats reissued his number, but I doubt if it’ll happen.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I actually wouldn't mind seeing the Nationals retire it then
It’s still their history; plus, he’d be their first number they retire
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
If the Nats want to retire a number in Dawson honor
They should retire 10, not 8. Dawson wore 10 with the Expos, switched to 8 with the Cubs…switched back to 10 with the Red SOx and went back to 8 to finish with the Marlins.
See the Cubs 2010 schedule at http://cubsbythenumbers.com/sched2010.html
Also see what old Cubs Scorecards looked like at http://cubsbythenumbers.com/scorecards.html
THIS IS A GREAT DAY IN CUBS HISTORY!
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jan 6, 2010 1:10 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
One of my favorite things each year ...
is finding the most undeserving player that actually received at least one vote. This year’s nominees include: Ellis Burks 2 votes, Eric Karros 2, Kevin Appier 1, Pat Hentgen 1 and David Segui 1. David Segui?!?!
Oh, and congrats to the Hawk! Great player and it’s about time.
Harry Caray: Marshall is going back to LA to get cocaine for his injured foot.
Steve Stone: Harry, that’s Novocaine.
by Julio Zuleta's Voodoo on Jan 6, 2010 1:10 PM CST reply actions
Since he is from my hometown
I will point out that Hentgen won a Cy Young, started an All-Star Game and won a World Series. Obviously there is no way he deserves to be in the Hall but one vote is ok :)
by madeindetroit on Jan 6, 2010 1:18 PM CST up reply actions
Burks was actually a really good player at his peak...
as was Appier. The rest are silly.
Appier receives my vote
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
My vote to not get a vote
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Bs on Blyleven though
really..5 votes? He’ll get in next year for sure..
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
nobody really
Bagwell and Larry Walker are only new guys worth voting for next year (Palmeiro, ummmm, yeah). Voters will have a hard time defending not getting Blylevin and Alomar in next year… Larkin as well. They’ll need to get some of the guys who are worth it, but not “worth it” as first timers out of the way… the field gets really crowded starting in 2013.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 6, 2010 10:34 PM CST up reply actions
Congrats!
Congrats to the Hawk!
Which hat will he wear? Hopyfully he will go in as a Cub, but he did spend more years on Montreal.
Sutter
Bruce Sutter spent more time with the Cubs than Cardinals including his Cy Young year, but I have no problem with his wearing a Cards cap.
The my understanding is that the HoF has final say but the player has input.
Eamus Ursuli!
Too bad we can't discuss with the Expos blog
which team’s cap he will wear. Normally it would be a tough call but I suspect politics will push towards the Cubs. If you check any of my old posts, The Hawk is my all time favorite Cub ( Maddux is my all time favorite baseball player). I once spent my birthday watching Dawson tape the Stephen A Smith show. I loved Andre back when he was an Expo. He was really wonderful to the bleacher fans.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
It will be up to the Hall of Fame
I’d love to see him in a Cubs cap, but it seems only right that he go in as an Expo.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Might be some poltics though.
How many Expo fans going to go to Cooperstown and spend money. Just saying.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 6, 2010 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
That's an important point
although you’d have to think there would be more Mets fans than Expos fans and Gary Carter went in as an Expo.
Yabbut, the Expos were still playing a little baseball in 2003, albiet
all over the place.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
do you really think some Cubs fans will decide whether or not they're going to the Induction Ceremonies...
…based on what hat Andre will wear?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
A few but not many but it might honestly effect how much they spend when they go.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 6, 2010 1:36 PM CST up reply actions
The politics may push it toward Montreal.
The HOF is a museum, and I’m sure that they want to see some Montreal hats on the wall, if only to prove that the team existed.
Besides, that’s where he was in his prime. Vlad will be the last Expo HOFer, it appears, unless Raines’ 30% takes a serious uptick next season.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 6, 2010 1:48 PM CST up reply actions
I'm really mad Bert didn't get in.
It’s just an incredible oversight. I do not understand the HOF voters.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
If you're a Twins fan and get the opportunity to listen to him on-air...
…he is just an incredible advocate for the game of baseball. He’s just a wonderful man for the game of baseball.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
I think he gets in next year
Not sure who the 1st timers for next year will be but I think both him and Alomar get in next year.
by LT on Jan 6, 2010 1:16 PM CST up reply actions
Next year's first-timers are:
Wilson Alvarez, Carlos Baerga, Jeff Bagwell, Bret Boone, Kevin Brown, Cal Eldred, John Franco, Juan Gonzalez, Marquis Grissom, Bobby Higginson, Charles Johnson, Al Leiter, Tino Martinez, Raul Mondesi, Jose Offerman, John Olerud, Rafael Palmeiro, Paul Quantrill, Steve Reed, Kirk Rueter, Rey Sanchez, Benito Santiago, B.J. Surhoff, Ugueth Urbina, Ismael Valdez, Larry Walker, and Dan Wilson.
Bert and Alomar will be in, no problem. Palmeiro will still debate, but I can’t see him getting in right now.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I'm starting my BJ Surhoff campaign right now...
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
I bet he gets as many votes as Karros did this year.
I can only see Bagwell being considered among those first-timers (and maybe Palmeiro for some).
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Lol!
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Yeah
I don’t know if Raffy ever gets in because of being such a hypocrite on steriods.
by LT on Jan 6, 2010 1:19 PM CST up reply actions
Raffy vs McGwire
That will be an interesting comparison to see who gets more votes
Eamus Ursuli!
That is a horrid list
Bagwell will get in. Tino might get a good chunk of votes for the Yankee crap.
Other than that, that list sucks.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Playing in Colorado is going to hurt Walker, in my opinion.
I think plenty of voters will look at his numbers as being inflated.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
That is a rough list of first-timers.
Obviously, it’s Bert’s turn next year. HOF voting has a certain inertia, and no one has ever gotten within shouting distance of induction and failed to make it. Bert missed by a razor-thin margin, so he’s in next year, along with Alomar.
I suppose that Larry Walker will get some attention, too, but I just don’t think he’ll make it. He compares favorably with some HOFers, though.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 6, 2010 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
Walker
Is going to be discounted wit one word: Colorado. It’s going to be interesting on Todd Helton, who is going to be the first real test case on how much do we count Colorado statistics.
The best argument for Larry Walker is Chuck Klein
Klein benefited from the band box that was the Baker Bowl, yet he’s in the Hall of Fame.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Yeah
but he was inducted by the 1970s-early 80s Veteran’s Committee, whose inductions are considered questionable by even the hardest core of the anti-stat heads. Freddie Lindstrom? Travis Jackson? Jim Bottomley? Even Hack Wilson.
To be fair, Klein was probably the best non-Negro League VC inductee from that period. But I haven’t heard anyone say “Barry Larkin was three times the player Travis Jackson was, therefore he belongs in the Hall.” Those arguments don’t really seem to be flying.
Walker
gets in for me as much because of his defense and all around game. I don’t think he’ll get in first-ballot, but he’ll eventually get in. If the voters will forgive steroids (which i think they will) eventually they’ll overlook the colorado effect for Walker and Helton (maybe).
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 6, 2010 10:36 PM CST up reply actions
No chance at all Palmeiro gets in first year
And maybe never. McGwire is out because he won’t talk about steroids. Raffy got caught lying about it.
The most interesting PED vote will be Bonds. He was a HOF player before he turned himself to a comic book character.
Blyleven and Alomar look pretty good for next year. Bagwell looks like the strongest of the first time guys. Well, maybe Rey Sanchez….
John Franco and Randy Myers
Oops! I thought he had already been on the ballot and rejected. Well, if Lee Smith isn’t getting into the Hall, then John Franco isn’t either. Though, I did think Franco was one of the best lefty relievers ever along with Randy Myers, the guy for whom he was traded. I can’t believe how quickly Myers’ career fizzled out after being so good in Baltimore. I thought Myers was on his way to a HoF career before 1998. He disappeared from the scene in a heartbeat after going back to San Diego.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Franco
I thought Franco specifically had already been on the ballot, but I was wrong about that.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Bagwell and Boone are the only ones I'd vote for on that list
Any chance Palmeiro gets more than twenty percent? I doubt it
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Power hitting 2B
Not a first ballot guy but I’d still vote for him
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Blyleven will get in next year
He didn’t hurdle over anyone. Dawson went in before him and now he can get in. Alomar should get in next year as well. Jeff Bagwell will be eligible for the first time in 2011 and I don’t expect him to get in on the first ballot.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Bert's a great guy.
I’ve worked with him. Affable, and free with his very deep knowledge of the game.
I suspect he’ll get in next year – and I hope so!
jackasses like Mariotti put in BLANK BALLOTS .
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 6, 2010 1:13 PM CST up reply actions
Take his vote away!
Never happen, but if this another one of those “I won’t vote for anyone because of the steroid era” protest votes, the Hall and sportswriters need to look at taking votes away from these guys. The steroid era is a stain on the game, but to throw EVERY player under the bus like that is just as shameful.
by cubfanandy on Jan 6, 2010 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Especially because Blyleven retired before the “steroid era” began.
by Jody Jody Davis on Jan 6, 2010 1:20 PM CST up reply actions
Not an anti-steroid vote
Basically he won’t for ANYONE after the first year , his said if they don’t get in the first year they don’t deserve it. An IDIOT !
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 6, 2010 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
Nobody really likes Mariotti anyway
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
In one respect
I agree with him. Does it really matter if someone gets in on the first ballot or the 15th? A HOF player is a HOF player. His stats didn’t get any better. In reality, there are only two or maybe three players a year who deserve to get in.
I get tired of the players who campaign or writers who campaign for players to get in.
And no, I don’t like Mariotti. I think he is a jerk.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- George Santayana (1863-1952)
Wow! He's even dumber than I thought.
And that’s really saying something.
Hall of Fame voting: Highlighting the BBWAA’s stupidity since 1936.
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.
That's such a load of crap argument
The purpose of the 5 year wait and 15 years of voting is that over 20 years a lot can happen. You know, like an era of some kind having to do with syringes. Or, just a growing appreciation for what a player has done over his career. Past memories and current events help an awful lot when judging something like this. A player may retire and you don’t really consider him an HOF’er, but after 20 years of memories and new players, you might change your mind.
"This next song... it's about the White Sox. It's called: F*** Em'." - Eddie Vedder
Part of me wonders if they shortened the voting period to 10 years
that you’d get more or less the same results, except with everything happening in 2/3 the time. It always seems like these borderline guys pick up steam towards the end of their voting period and part of me thinks the same would happen towards the end of a shorting voting period as well.
I can see that viewpoint
A guy’s numbers haven’t changed any…he’s either a Hall of Famer or he isn’t.
"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...
by Curtain Jerker on Jan 6, 2010 10:07 PM CST up reply actions
Reading his columns
makes me think he’s already done the lysergic thing to death.
"Only a mediocre person is always at his best." ~W. Somerset Maugham
Hydrochloric.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 6:23 PM CST up reply actions
i actually feel conflicted on this
Blyleven’s such a superior candidate to Dawson, i kind of feel bad…. I’m a fan of Andre so happy to see him get in, but feels a bit dirty to me that he’s getting in ahead of Blyleven
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jan 6, 2010 2:47 PM CST up reply actions
Doubt there were too many Red Sox fans
who felt “dirty” last year when Jim Rice was voted in before Dawson. It’s a shame Blyleven is not in yet, but he’ll get in next year.
"See the stars they're shining bright, everything's alright tonight."
Long overdue!
"Okay, just so I understand it...in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil."- Jim Halpert
Well deserved
He was the best OF in the NL for what, 10-12 years? And by all accounts, a class act.
Surprised no Alomar but he’ll get in next time, surely.
I am also wondering why the lack of love/respect for Big Lee Smith? Because the lasting image of him is giving up that HR in ’84 LCS to Steve Garvey? Piled up the saves like no one until Trevor H.
Maybe Ron Santo makes it on next vets ballot, too!!
YES!
glad to hear Reynolds keeping people focused on who DID make it more than who didn’t…but I think the topic will be more about BB being so close and Alomar possibly being held back by spitting or first-ballot bias.
Great news
Glad to hear this. The Hawk was one of my favorites from that time. Loved his cannon arm too.
Wow...
… why no love for the ex-Cardinal, ex-Cub, ex-Phillie, ex-Oriole, ex-Dodger, ex-Marlin, ex-Ranger, ex-Met, ex-Rockie, ex-Yankee, ex-Expo, and ex-Met (again)???
Todd Zeille got screwed! ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Guess all the Expo voters were voting for Dawson instead of Zeile.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I am so happy!
A great way to start the New Year and I can’t wait to go to Cooperstown!
Why is Hawk going in as a Expo?
Damnit.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Is this confirmed?
Too bad if it’s the case, but I can understand why.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 1:20 PM CST up reply actions
They are talking about him as an Expo.
And his portrait is him in an Expo hat.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
MLB Network is talking as if it's done deal.
But I’m not so sure it is.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I'm guessing....
… there will be a few more Cubs fans than Expos fans at his induction ceremony.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Depends
If Dave Van Horne or Jacques Doucet win the Frick award, maybe not.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 1:21 PM CST up reply actions
That internet vote was so bogus.
All the old Expos and current Blue Jays fans stuffed the ballot box.
Hope the committee picks Joe Nuxhall.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Nuxhall deserves it
But Van Horne or Doucet would be good picks, too. Tom Cheek, too, for that matter.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 1:23 PM CST up reply actions
Honestly, I don't think that should matter.
I think players should go in with the teams they built their resume on. Dawson’s was clearly built in Montreal.
by shawndgoldman on Jan 6, 2010 1:33 PM CST up reply actions
It was first built in Montreal
but you can still make a case the other way. MVP season was with the Cubs. Five all-star games with the Cubs, three with the Expos. Averaged 29 HR while hitting .285 with the Cubs, averaged 20 HR and hit .280 for Montreal.
Of course there are several arguments the other way, and I’d also lean towards him going in as an Expo, but I don’t think it’s a slam dunk.
Harry Caray: Marshall is going back to LA to get cocaine for his injured foot.
Steve Stone: Harry, that’s Novocaine.
by Julio Zuleta's Voodoo on Jan 6, 2010 1:44 PM CST up reply actions
Well that wouldn't work too well
Much as I would love to see Maddux go in a Cub as the team he did indeed build his “resume” with, it only makes sense he goes in as a Brave. Dawson is much more complicated but you can’t use the team a player essentially first blossomed with as a criteria.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 6, 2010 1:52 PM CST up reply actions
Nice
I’m so glad Andre Dawson made it. IMHO, he should get in if only for giving the Cubs a blank check in 1987.
Of course, we all remember his great years with the Cubs, but that outfield he was part of in Montreal was something else.
Blyleven not making it is a continued injustice. (The Twins are my second-favorite team.)
Now, are there lessons to be learned about how Dawson carried himself in regards to the possibilities of getting into the HOF? (Ron Santo, pay attention.)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 1:19 PM CST reply actions
This is AWESOME!!!
YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! YES!!!
Wait a minute... who am I here?
Congrats to all the Expos fans, too...
… at least any that are left. Dawson’s best years were in Montreal, and I hope his fans there are celebrating today, as well.
Rarely has a fan base
been treated more like crap, by its own team and by MLB, than that of the Expos. What happened to that franchise is a sad, sad story.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 1:26 PM CST up reply actions
Well said.
While I was never really a fan of the Expos, what happened to that franchise is a shame. And the fact that in trying to promote the Nationals, MLB has seemingly done all it can to pretend the Expos never existed (unretiring Expo player numbers) is just as sad. NO respect for the Nats until they make that move right.
And the thing is, I'm not sure
that franchise is better off in Washington. A lot of people there seem to think the Nationals, someday, will leave there, too.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 1:36 PM CST up reply actions
Jesse Ventura prevented the contraction of the Twins
Somehow, I think the old Senators returning to Washington would have been better received due to so much of the team history being there: Goose Goslin, Walter Johnson and Sam Rice.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
It's funny to think
the all-time winningest pitcher in Twins franchise history is Walter Johnson.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 1:55 PM CST up reply actions
Walter Johnson was also the one time career strikeout king
Considering how old that record was at the time that Ryan and Carlton were going after it, we’ve seen eight pitchers pass Walter Johnson’s old mark. With Clemens disqualified due to PED issues and Randy Johnson a no-brainer for Cooperstown, the only guy you have left in that group that isn’t in that is eligible is Bert Blyleven.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Sad to say, but
I just don’t think D.C. is a baseball city, no matter how much MLB wants it to be.
It was years ago
The problem is that what became the Rangers spoiled it for a lot of people. With football having replaced baseball in the minds of Americans as their favorite sport, there just wasn’t baseball loyalty there. They love the Redskins there, but the Nats? When Randy Johnson recorded his 300th career win, hardly anyone was there. I know the weather was bad, but you don’t get the opportunity to see something like that every day. It’s pretty pathetic.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
When the Nats make the playoffs
Washington will be a baseball town. They need some success first. DC isn’t Denver, where they go nuts over anything. (Aside. MLB was worried about going into Denver. I don’t know why. That is one crazy sports town. They thought Miami was a slam dunk. Again, Miami isn’t a good sports town unless you’re winning and winning a lot. DC is somewhere between those two.)
I never thought Denver was a big risk
The Zephyrs always drew well. Plus, as you say, Denver is a crazy sports town.
I heard the “they’ll move someday” sentiment more than once when I was in Washington for the Nats-Cubs series last summer.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 3:03 PM CST up reply actions
I was at the game that put Denver on the MLB map
A preseason exhibition game in 1985 featuring the Cubs that drew something like 70,000 people to the old Mile High Stadium.
I agree that Washington will one day be a quality baseball town
And I also think the Natinoals are well on the way to building a quality franchise and roster.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
Maybe
It’s a different city/area now than it was in the ’60s. I still think there is too much apathy there, and too many Orioles fans.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 3:11 PM CST up reply actions
Northern Virginia needs to be exploited
in the 60s, this was rural. Now, it’s urban. This is an area to draw from now. Hate to agree with Blue Mike, but the Nats can carve out their own fan base. Look, the Angels are 90 miles from SD. That was a 1960’s argument NOT to put a team in the SD market.
Balt/DC may be close, but they are two distinct markets as is Orange County and SD.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jan 6, 2010 3:15 PM CST up reply actions
Right as usual, SDSJM
If the Nats are going to grab a foothold, it’s got to be in NoVa.
The key thing you might be overlooking in your comparisons with Orange County/SD, though, might be population. That area is bigger than DC/Baltimore, no? Not sure about the affluence level.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 3:26 PM CST up reply actions
Many long-time DCers were baseball orphans, pre Nationals
1. They’ve had two teams pulled out from under them and they’re leary of adopting yet another team. (Can you imagine living in one city and yet being expected to be a fan of 4 different organizations during your lifetime? Sounds exhausting.) The Nationals don’t yet have a real identity or personality.
2. Peter Angelos and his shenanigans did much to drive away or soften the ground of any potential Orioles fan that might want to switch to the Nationals. Most baseball fans I know in the area were all too thrilled to be done with Angelos and get a team that’s actually in their city.
I live in DC/Northern VA. DC isn’t a rabid baseball town, but it’s decent (certainly no worse than Baltimore). Like many expansion teams, the Nationals will gain support when they build a successful organization and become a winning ballclub.
RIght now, they’re viewed as more of a AAA team. Sort of like the Devil Rays circa 2002.
who thinks that?
the Nationals are the closest team to me, and there has been not even a single rumor from what I’ve heard of the Nationals leaving.
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
The Nats aren't leaving
I mean, someday is a long time. One day the United States may fragment into six countries and Washington may be the Cyborg city and baseball will leave because they don’t allow Cyborgs in the ballpark
cyborgs have no heart...
Eric Hanna and FAN of the BULLS, the two greatest BCBers in the history of mankind
by jesus christos on Jan 6, 2010 4:04 PM CST up reply actions
They assimilate those who are not cyborgs into their collective!
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 4:05 PM CST up reply actions
yeah that too
if ballparks allowed cyborgs into the ball park, theyd assimilate everyone. and everyone knows cyborgs cant drink beer
Eric Hanna and FAN of the BULLS, the two greatest BCBers in the history of mankind
by jesus christos on Jan 6, 2010 4:08 PM CST up reply actions
We are the Nats. Lower your cups and surrender your beer. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Wrong. Try this.
We are the Nats. Lower your cups and surrender your beer. We will add your talent and athletic abilities to our own. Your baseball team will adapt to lose to us. Resistance is futile.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 4:17 PM CST up reply actions
Much, much better!!!
I just got back from consuming some Pan Galatic Gargle Blasters with my brother, who is in Munich right now, so my edge is missing.
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
@Twitter as @brommmietze
This is what is known as "TOTL."
“Trekkie on the Loose.”
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 4:26 PM CST up reply actions
Yup.
… and if they had a halfway decent field they may have never lost Dawson, either.
by shawndgoldman on Jan 6, 2010 1:34 PM CST up reply actions
Here's a good story
a recent one, about the Expos’ fate. (Including an appearance by ex-Cub Michael Barrett.)
http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Part+Montreal+soul+died+when+Expos+left/2200710/story.html
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 2:17 PM CST up reply actions
The feeling in Montreal (where I have an apartment) is that the Expos were screwed by a bad owner in cahoots with Bud Selig.
Olympic Stadium was a bust as a baseball venue but there are LOTS of baseball fans in that town.
Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville
I was there for the Cubs last series in MTL, in 2004
and I was stunned at how many Expos fans I encountered … everywhere except Olympic Stadium. They were pissed off, and they had every right to be.
(BTW, lucky you, with an apartment in Montreal. What a wonderful city.)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
If the Expos had stayed in Montreal,
I likely would have gone to the series there at Olympic Stadium. I take your word that there were (and, possibly, still are) lots of baseball fans in Montreal.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 4:24 PM CST up reply actions
Montreal was a good baseball town
Not a great one, but a good one. But the Canadian dollar tanked and they couldn’t keep any of their players and the fans got disgruntled.
Montreal has had some demographic shifts too. The Anglophone population that tended to be bigger baseball fans has shrunk over the past 30 years.
The ascendance of the Parti Quebecois
and a lot of the “French-only” laws they implemented, which chased away a lot of the Anglophone business community, probably had a lot to do with it.
Not only that, but the financing fiasco from the ’76 Olympics soured the government from backing any sports-construction enterprise.
I’m sure it’s a lot easier to run a pro sports franchise in Canada when its dollar is at 90 cents US than at 63 cents. Look at the departure of the Nordiques and Jets in the NHL.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
The Expos' fan base largely did not extend south of the border.
And that’s with the Vermont Expos playing baseball here in Burlington.
Once you went from Quebec into Vermont, the loyalties switched and instantly, and there were (and still are) a lot of Red Sox fans here.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 4:20 PM CST up reply actions
I really don't follow hockey that much.
But to my knowledge, most of the people here are Bruins fans. Canadiens fans … you really must have some ties to Montreal in order to cheer for them.
Some of my co-workers are Canadiens fans, but I think most of them are from Canada.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 4:26 PM CST up reply actions
Do many people from Burlington
go to Montreal for concerts, shopping, etc.? If they want to go to a “big city”? Or do they head for Boston or elsewhere? Seems like Montreal would be a lot closer.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 4:27 PM CST up reply actions
All over, to be honest.
Montreal, Boston, New York, there are several big cities around here.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
Plattsburgh like that, too, VCF?
I remember a guy at the Big O with a sign that said “Plattsburgh loves the Expos,” or some such thing.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 4:26 PM CST up reply actions
To be honest,
I haven’t been to Plattsburgh in a long time. The quickest way to reach Plattsburgh from where I live is to take the Grand Isle Ferry across Lake Champlain, but I moved out of Grand Isle a few years ago.
Plattsburgh, like Montreal, has largely disappeared from where my family goes when we head on vacation.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
And, seriously,
I don’t even know what the “Big O” is.
The last few times I was in Plattsburgh was when I was competing in a race with my college’s cross-country team.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 5:30 PM CST up reply actions
Big O
= nickname for Olympic Stadium.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 8:59 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know what baseball loyalties are like in Plattsburgh.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 9:17 PM CST up reply actions
Sorry about that.
But you and I must meet up for a game or a baseball chat at some point!
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 9:27 PM CST up reply actions
I'm thinking so.
Are you planning a Cubs trip this season?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 9:38 PM CST up reply actions
Thinking about it.
Probably during the summer at some point, I need to go see my family members in the Chicago area.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 9:39 PM CST up reply actions
Tell you what, NBF...
I’d like to see the Cubs play Houston at some time this year.
I see from the Cubs’ sortable schedule that the Cubs play Philadelphia and Houston right after the All-Star Break this year. I’ll see if I can get that time off from work, and make it out there to see my family, and if you can meet up, please let me know.
Also, Al, I’ll give a shout-out to you if I have the tickets to one or more of those games … hope to meet you too!
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 10:08 PM CST up reply actions
I will do that, VCF
Not sure if I can make it to Houston this season, but I’ll try.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2010 6:31 PM CST up reply actions
NBF ... the games I am referring to are in Chicago.
Hope to see you there!
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 8, 2010 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
HALLELUJAH!!!!
"They give each other a kiss after every pitch. He kisses her on the strikes and she kisses him on the balls." - Harry Caray
Congrats Hawk!!!
GREAT news, overdue as it is!!! The Hall has added one of the classiest and best players of his era. If he’d have played on the east coast or for the Cubs during his early years, he’s have been in long ago.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUKKKKKKYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
My all-time favorite player. The only player I’ve ever considered a hero.
It’s about fucking time. Suck it, Posnanski.
I don’t care if he goes in as an Expo, a Red Sox or even a Marlin. He’s in. That is what matters.
I personally think he had his most fame as a Cub, but the crux of his candidacy — best blend of power and speed since Willie Mays — happened in Montreal, before his knees went.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Fantastic News!
Congratulation Andre, much deserved!
Oh this is TERRIBLE news!
Nothing good can come to the Cubs in 2010. Da Karma is spent! Thank God they sell Old Style at Wrigley.
Congrats to Dawson. Did anyone notice that Dawson is wearing a Montreal Expos cap in the HoF press release. Is Dawson going in with the Expos hat? The HoF picks for the hat for players now.
Yep
And he should go in as an Expo. I love what he did for the Cubs, but ignoring the height of his career with Montreal would be pretty bad. They don’t have a team in Montreal anymore and I’m all for the Hall giving recognition to former Expos.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Once again, congratulations to Andre Dawson.
It’s been somewhat of a rough off-season. This makes things a lot better.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Jan 6, 2010 1:32 PM CST reply actions
Awesome Dawson!
Just great news!
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
Just interviewed on ESPN
very cagey on the issue of the capp. Said just happy to be in and decision was up to HOF but he had his views which he would discuss with them. Cubs management did not treat him well but the fans literally worshiped him. Al and I are old enough to have done the Dawson "bow’ many times in the RF bleachers. Well actually not sure how many games Al got to in those years.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
None of those guys in management
are still around. Andre outlived his enemies.
But then again, I don’t care which cap he wears. Let him go in as a Marlin.
He’s in. My favorite player is in. Coffee taste better. It’s not as cold outside. Life is better.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
It is
My friends thought I was crazy for going to that ESPN taping on my birthday. I met them later for dinner but could not get them to understand who Dawson was and how much he meant to me.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 6, 2010 1:42 PM CST up reply actions
YES!!!!!!
I was almost afraid to turn on the TV or check the Internet when I got home today. I was thinking about it all morning. Glad to say I came to BCB first and got the news here. Fantastic news, Congrats to Hawk!!! Next year will be Blyleven and Alomar. Kind of surprised Alomar did not get in this year, but I guess they just didn’t want to make him a first ballot guy. That’s the “club within the club” and it’s amazing how protective they are of that. But this year, I’m not thinking about Alomar. It’s all Hawk. Great day.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Well Santo has another Hall fo Fame vote
+1
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
by fischisgod on Jan 6, 2010 1:42 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Awesome news, Congrats Hawk!!
…this made my day!
I thought for sure Blyleven and Alomar would get in…..
There should be very little debate about what cap Hawk wears
hands down, it should be an Expo cap. Put aside your Cubbie-blue colored glasses and look at the numbers. The only thing he did better as a Cub was in the power department. Of course, these decisions aren’t all about the numbers and I’m sure other factors will enter the picture but they shouldn’t.
Now if you want a cap issue to debate, try to figure out what cap Alomar will go in under when he does get in. I guess as a Blue Jay but it’s not nearly as clear-cut as Andre.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I agree
The main force behind his candidacy are the blend of homers and steals and most of those steals came as an Expo.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
disagree
without the MVP season in 87… he doesn’t get the consideration he does now. His fame came in a Cubs uniform. The numbers, no contest came as an Expo. His greatness came as an Expo. He gets in because he was a Cub.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 6, 2010 10:39 PM CST up reply actions
Great question on Alomar
I was thinking as an Indian, but he was a Blue Jay longer and it was towards the beginning of his career as well.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
The more I think of it, that's what makes sense to me, too.
Would he be the first Blue Jay in the Hall?
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
As an Indians fan, I obviously remember him most as an Indian.
It always surprises me when I look at his stats and realize he only spent 3 years in Cleveland.
But they were 3 very very good years…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
That's what surprised me, too, was it was just 3 years.
I just remember those double plays with Vizquel. Goodness, they were something to watch.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
He only spent five in Toronto
But it’s more than any other team and he won two World Series in those five years.
Yes, he should be the first Blue Jay in the hall.
Sounds like a good enough case to me.
I still can’t fathom him not getting in this year, but he’s a shoe-in for 2011.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
As a fellow Indians fan
I also think of his Indian years and what a great 2B-SS combo they were. But as Josh77 said, more years in Toronto, won the 2 World Series, and he’d be the first Blue Jay in. He goes in a Jay. I wonder though how many votes the spitting in the Ump’s face incident cost him this year.
At least one of MLB.com's writers said he didn't vote for Alomar because of it.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
The spitting incident probably cost Alomar
first-ballot induction. I think he almost certainly would have made it this year, if not for that.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 2:08 PM CST up reply actions
You're absolutely right
Character issues held him back, but by only eight votes.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
So great that Hirshbeck can accept his
apology, but some idiot sportswriter can’t. You showed ’em, hack.
Yep
Some of these bloated self-important slobs who write a column for $40,000 a year like to get on their high horse and act self-important.
“See Mr. Alomar, you wouldn’t talk to me and my mustard-stained tie after a game in 1993….I’m getting back at you for thinking I was a loser schmuck….”
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
...and giving his girlfriend the HIV...
I agree with you there.
That wasn't the case
I think the woman was just crazy with AIDS phobia somehow. I didn’t see anything where it was confirmed that Alomar was HIV-positive and the case was dismissed.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I LOVE Dawson but I am not expecting him
to pull a Ryno and give an unexpedly fiery speech. Maybe they could just have him re-read Ryne’s speech about how he
( Andre) did it “the natural” way.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
I'm hoping The Hawk will stump for Tim Raines
Ryno’s speech seemed to work.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
5 years later?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 6, 2010 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
Yes really
The gist of Ryno’s arguement about doing things " the natural way" started the ball rolling and as the steroid scandal grew it helped Dawson enourmously but for that my guess is he would still not be in.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 6, 2010 2:28 PM CST up reply actions
I can't help but think Ryno's speech had an impact when it comes to Dawson
Did he get in the next year? No. But I do think it helped. Dawson can come up in a big way and raise awareness for Raines in the same fashion.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Alright, you and Jessica have given me something to think about
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 6, 2010 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
+1
Tim Raines is the man.. Man knew how to slide into second abse headfirst without messing with his coke
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
The words of Ryno's speech were firey
but he wasn’t exactly making people forget Martin Luther King Jr. with his delivery. Much better read than listen.
Ryno's Speech
“Andre Dawson, the Hawk. No player in baseball history worked harder, suffered more or did it better than Andre Dawson. He’s the best I’ve ever seen. Stand up Hawk. The Hawk. I watched him win MVP for a last place team in 1987 and it was the most unbelievable thing I’ve ever seen in baseball. He did it the right way, the natural way and he did it in the field and on the bases and in every way, and I hope he will stand up here someday. We didn’t get to a World Series together but we almost got there, Hawk. That’s my regret, that we didn’t get to a World Series for Cub fans. I was in the post season twice and I’m thankful for that. Twice we came close.”
Chillsville.
by zib23 on Jan 6, 2010 3:16 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
"We didn’t get to a World Series together but we almost got there, Hawk."
Irony of course being that if Dawson had been able to drive in Walton, Sandberg, Grace and Dunston who were on base constantly in the ’89 NLCS, the Cubs would have been in the World Series.
Can't argue with you
While the Cub fan in me wants to see him go in as a Cub, he should go in as an Expo. And Alomar goes in as a Blue Jay I would guess too.
Way to go Hawk!
This is awesome! I understand the low OBP argument against his induction, but being in the 400/300 club + the great defense + the all around class make him a HOFer in my mind. My two favorite players when I was a kid, Sandberg and Dawkins are now in the hall! Woohoo!
Great news, question is
Do the Cubs retire no. 8?
Probably not
Remeber, he was only a Cub for 6 seasons, and it looks like he’ll have an Expos cap on his HoF plaque anyway.
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.
I think they will.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I don't care
If BLou said Mickey Mantle was a Hall of Famer, I’d have to check Mantle’s stats to be sure.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
today the HAWK...
yesterday the HAWKeyes…
sue…you must be on cloud nine…
personally, to honor dawson, i’m changing my screen name today from 12to23to17 to simply “8”
‘bout time they let andre in…if nolan ryan feared the HAWK, then he’s LONG overdue for the hall
congrats
Okay I admit it
I got all choked up when I heard this. Dawson and Sandberg are my all time favorites.
Even friends in my non sports groups know about my love for Dawson. I even heard from a friend in Australia who saw my post about this yesterday on our MB and was up and checked news sites!
Going to Cooperstown!
2/18/2010 B&B become a We
http://www.montrealgazette.com/index.html
Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville
Congrats to Dawson
Unfortunately, the idiots within the BBWOA didn’t seal the deal and vote Bert Blyleven and Robbie Alomar in. Fortunatley Blyleven is now a virtual LOCK to get voted in next year, which shall be very long overdue.
Alomar? Despite him being a douche there is no excuse for him not being a first-ballot election. Either you are a Hall of Famer or you are not. This making certain players sweat it out a few years is an absolute joke perpetuated by a bunch of bloated, self-important newspaper men having increasingly hard time keeping employed in the information age.
By the way, Dawson should absolutely go into the Hall wearing an Expo cap. I don’t see how anybody could see it any other way. The same argument applies to Gary Carter.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
Dawson absolutely YES, Santo absolutely no
In address to the question posed to me above. Santo did not have a Hall of Fame worthy career. He was a solid player yes, a great player no. And no, there shouldn’t be a sympathy vote for the diabetes thing. That’s not how a properly functioning Hall of Fame should work. But lets put this to rest once and for all because Santo is done ever getting into the Hall. Move on people.
Dawson? He was a great 5 tool player who was a superstar even operating in the baseball obscurity that was Montreal. No doubt whatsoever of is Hall credentials, the sabermagicians be damned with their critique of his OBP.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
I agree with you zero percent
Santo yes, Dawson no. But I’m happy for Hawk.
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Which one of those guys is BLou?
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 8:16 PM CST up reply actions
Why doesn't that surprise me?
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 7, 2010 5:42 PM CST up reply actions
After the above downer post
Here’s some good readin’
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jan 6, 2010 3:07 PM CST reply actions
Congrats Hawk!
I think that Ryno’s Campaign Speech for Dawson during his HOF induction speech, in which he lauded the Hawk for playing the game the “right”, i.e. steroid-free, way, probably made more than one HOF voter reconsider Dawson’s Hall worthiness.
Also, the famous “blank check” contract is a refreshing contrast to the Scott Boras modern mentality.
As to Rikabert Blyleven, who I have been a fan of ever since he replied to my autograph request when I was a kid, 2011 will be his year. His vote trajectory in recent years has been similar to Bruce Sutter and Jim Rice, who finally made it to the HOF in their latter years of eligibility.
Bert "Be Home" Blyleven WILL get elected next year
THankfully so. His omission from the Hall is a gross misjustice.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
Changes in his voting percentage are staggering
Voters must have started to recognize what a career Blyleven had and how few pitchers could match his numbers now – 13 wins short of 300 with 242 CGs.
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 6, 2010 3:24 PM CST up reply actions
The "black check" is legend......a nice story....
See the above story in my post, a look back at The Hawk’s career.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jan 6, 2010 3:23 PM CST up reply actions
Alomar and Raines
are the two biggest snubs in my opinion. Alomar will skate in next year (one year penalty for the spitting incident maybe?), but will Raines be able to up that paultry 30%? He deserves way better, off the field issues aside. Here’s hoping the writers figure that out before too long.
I still want to know why
it takes a guy several ballots to get in the hall? this whole voting process is a fraud. i dont understand how a player becomes more hall worthy as time goes by. you either are or you aren’t. that being said i am glad the hawk made it and being canadian i hope he goes in as an expo just to give the expo’s and their fans some acknowledgement.
The Hawk in the Hall
We should all stand and do the “salam” bow in honor of Andre Dawson. And when Santo gets voted into the hall, we’ll all click our heels.
fesullivan
Yay!
Awesome Dawson!
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
CONGRATULATIONS HAWK!
Richly deserved and long overdue.
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
Geeeeiiiiiilllllllllllll
This is good news – My sincere congratulations to Dawson!
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Great news for Andre
As almost everyone else has said, Dawson was enormously exciting on the field and a class act off of it. He was one of the easiest players to root for in my lifetime.
Dawson hit the longest home run that I’ve ever seen at Wrigley, against the Phillies in August of 1989. The ball cleared the camera booth above the batter’s eye before landing on Waveland. Coupled with a home run by Sandberg (who homered for the 5th consecutive game – the ballpark exploded when the ball landed in the basket) and a nice outing from Maddux, that was perhaps the most exciting game that I attended as a kid. My dad would take me once a year, and that was the only time that we had a full combination of (a) good seats, (b) good weather, (c ) a Cub victory, and (d) heroics from all my favorite players.
Not to take anything away from Blyleven and Alomar, who are both deserving, but Barry Larkin is next on my list. I was happy to see that he was named on about 50% of the ballots, leading me to believe that he’ll get in soon instead of getting stuck in the Tim Raines netherworld. Larkin was a guy that did everything well but had no single standout skill, like Dawson’s throwing arm. Guys that have a broad range of skills, like Larkin, are great players by virtue of their combined skills but, without one characteristic that stands out, they tend to fade from memory after retirement. So it’s good to see Larkin start out with a decent level of support, as I worried that he was in danger of being ignored.
"I'd rather play baseball than eat." - Andy Pafko
Great news for Dawson!
Now we just need to get Snato and Ryno in the HOF! Who’s with me on this sentiment?
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 4:03 PM CST reply actions
It is a travesty that Ron is not in the Hall of Fame
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Ryno's already in, VCF
As for Santo … I want him in, but his constant politicking and woe-is-me approach to it all makes me NOT want him in.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 6, 2010 4:09 PM CST up reply actions
Need to catch up on my history, it seems.
That approach can have the opposite effect as intended, and actually turn possible voters away.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 6, 2010 4:10 PM CST up reply actions
Yes! Finally!
It never should have taken nine years. It just… Screw it. Congratulations, Hawk. It’s way past due, but finally.
You were the most electrifying player on the field for a lot of years, and as classy as they come. If you can find a moment in your acceptance speech, tip your hat to Ryne and find a moment to say something similar about Ron Santo.
George Will, quoting Hawk, in Men at Work: “The ball was in play.” I don’t care what hat the HOF makes you wear; it’s about you as a player, not where you played.
AlaskaFan
"Year after year after year after year . . . . . after year after year after year . . ." - Steve Goodman, "Dying Cub Fan's Last Request"
Paraphrasing him from an interview last night on sportscenter
I didn’t play the game to get in the hall of fame, I played it because I loved it. Now that it has happened, it’s like my career has come full circle
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
A few thoughts
First, on Alomar, obviously there are those who believe in the “first ballot” stuff, which is total crap. However, I do wonder if some voters left him off due to the steroid suspicion. His numbers did fall off pretty rapidly and its possible that some voters believe that we’ll have a greater grasp on the steroid issue in a year or three. You can vote him in over the next decade and a half, but you can’t remove him.
Glad that Dawson made it but if I can remove the Cubs colored glasses, he is borderline. I am surprised that if one guy went in that it was him over Blyleven or Alomar. As for the cap, I was under the impression that while the HoF decided, if it was reasonable that a player could have one of two hats that the player would be allowed some input. I recall Bruce Sutter making some comment about choosing the Cards cap and it seemed to me that he would have been allowed to go in as either a Card or Cub.
Finally, the vitriol that some people post towards the voters is bewildering. This does not include those who use their ballots to make a statement, but if someone doesn’t believe that anyone from this current ballot is Hall worthy, thats their right. IMO none of them are clear cut. In each of our minds, a specific person is or isn’t a Hall of Famer, but expanded out of our own personal view, there is discussion and debate to this. While the process is maddening, being a Hall of Famer is a big deal, these are the best of the best of the best. So if it takes an extra year or two or even more for a specific person to get in, so be it.
by dmlichte on Jan 6, 2010 5:08 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I agree with you
I’m surprised by Dawson jumping over Blyleven. I thought he would make it this year.
Except most of non voters ARE making a statement
Mariotti claims basically he will never vote for someone who does not make it on the first ballot which is really stupid. So he votes for a guy HE thinks deserves to get in but the guy falls below 75% and he does NOT vote for him the next year ? Then you have the nut jobs who say since Ruth, Mantle and Gehrig did not get in unanimously they won’t vote for ANYONE on the first ballot ? I mean I can’t see ANY reason to have voted against Winfield, or RIpkin but some of them did. Others say they can’t be "sure " of players re steroids so vote for NONE OF THEM ? This year it was possible to make an valid if in my opinion flawed argument that nobody deserved to get in the fact is most of these guys do have an agenda that is NOT related to a players actual achievements.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 6, 2010 5:46 PM CST up reply actions
Bingo
I think most people see it for how ludicrous it really is. Gehrig was the only one who had a unanimous election, but that only happened because it happened at the winter meetings after everyone learned he had ALS. They wanted him to enjoy it before he died. There’s a good reason why Ruth did not get unanimous support and that’s because it was the first election. There were a lot of names to filter through in 1936, so you can forgive people for voting strategically back then. Nowadays, it’s a bit inexcusable for some candidates to not get unanimous support because anyone with a brain could figure it out. You have up to ten votes and you’re telling me that you couldn’t find a single person on the ballot worthy?
I admit that I’m somewhere in between big hall and small hall. I obviously believe that standards are necessary for enshrinement, but I think there have been loads of worthy candidates falling through the cracks year after year. Is the really a justification for giving Kirby Puckett a free pass but not Albert Belle? Then there are the guys like Ron Santo and Dick Allen who have to rely on the dithering Veterans Committee, which is like night and day when it comes to electing candidates. Then there are guys like Dave Parker and Alan Trammell who have valid Hall resumes, but continue to poll low year after year. Last but not least, there are the head scratchers that end up one and done like Will Clark and Lou Whitaker.
I’m just as glad as the next Cubs fan that Andre Dawson was finally enshrined, but you’re telling me that Bert Blyleven and Roberto Alomar have to wait another year for no good reason other than the fact that some people can’t seem to look at what’s staring them in the face? Where’s the justice in that? For Roberto Alomar, it’s even worse. There have been voters who said they feel he’s a Hall of Famer, but didn’t think he deserved first ballot enshrinement. I know it’s a tradition that goes back many years, but it’s totally and completely stupid. If you think he belongs, what’s the problem?
Here’s the problem you create when you intentionally force a guy you think belongs to wait another year. There are plenty of worthy holdovers on the ballot that are going to be dropped. I know Dave Parker is not going to get in unless the Veterans Committee gets its thumb out of its butt and elects a living player, but you can pretty much expect that he and Harold Baines may have seen their last BBWAA ballots. For Baines, I wouldn’t lose much sleep. The problem is that you have a lot of talent coming in over the next few years with players like Jeff Bagwell and Rafael Palmeiro coming in next year. Bert Blyleven, Roberto Alomar and Barry Larkin have the best chance out of any of the holdovers to cross the 75% threshold in the next few elections. Then we have to wonder about the candidacies of Fred McGriff, Edgar Martinez and Tim Raines and wonder if they’ll be lost in the shuffle like Lee Smith, Dave Parker and Alan Trammell.
It’s horribly inefficient. That’s the problem.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1001/mlb.andre.dawson.hof/content.1.html
Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville
Yay Andre!
Maybe I’ll even go to his induction. I’m so excited for him!
"I don't talk. I just let what I do talk for myself." -Johan Santana
congrats to andre
now my two favorite childhood cubs are in.
by truthaddict11 on Jan 6, 2010 6:50 PM CST via mobile reply actions
The more I think about Alomar's snub,
the more pissed I get. Yeah, he did a reprehensible thing. he apologized, apology accepted, move on. Hirshbeck is the only guy who should have a problem with Alomar for what he did. It’s not the Hall of Morality, it’s the Hall of Fame. The only thing that should matter is how a player performed as a player. If questionable behavior were factored in, the place would be half empty.
And if Raines’ off the field behavior is keeping his vote count low, that’s even worse than Alomar. At least Alomar’s transgression took place on the field. But Raines – a bunch of clown reporters who sit around hotel bars all night until they fall off their stools are going to judge someone for getting high?
Maybe the writers are simply morons. That’s the best case scenario.
The good news is that Dawson said that he fully expects Raines to get in
Maybe there’s hope that he will stump for him after all. He mentioned Raines when asked about him earlier.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
At only 30%
there is no guarantee that he’ll get it. That is a lot of votes to get over time. Dawson stumping for Raines won’t help that much since it isn’t players.
Opinions of players can be a huge influence on the vote
It’s not foolproof, but I believe that Ryno’s induction speech helped Dawson’s candidacy.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I wouldn't worry about Alomar
He will get in probably next year. I’m sure there are some that don’t want him in on the first ballot but in time will vote for him.
A new thought on Dawson's election
This should be another Ron Santo vote on the Veteran’s committee.
Ryno nailed it...
…he did play the game right. I don’t know when I’ve been happier about someone making it into the hall of fame. Santo would be the only one that I would be happier for. Dawson was such a pro, and a class act…not to mention one helluva great all-round ballplayer. Well deserved Andre!!
by NashCub on Jan 6, 2010 8:08 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Here here Andre
Congrats on a great career, and doing it like a true professional should.
"But it doesn't matter what I do, what I choose. I'm what's wrong. This is fate" - Dexter season 4....I mean Lovie season 6.
Dawson will be the Convention
Yipee. One good thing to look forward to.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
I should ditch school...
for two days and just leave next Monday. I miss the Cubs convention.
Looking forward to the summaries!
"I don't talk. I just let what I do talk for myself." -Johan Santana
Your gonna miss all the fun Sparkles
Gonna make some games this year ? You have not been indoctrinated by the Red Sox Nation have you ( speaking as one the few people on BCB who still roots for the Red Sox) ?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 6, 2010 11:04 PM CST up reply actions
I still root for the Red Sox
Although I pulled hard for the Rays two years ago and I still root for them, the Red Sox are a great franchise and a great example of what I’d like to see the Cubs become
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
And eat your heart out Steve Garvey...
…you graceless phony. If you’d been smart enough to accept Dallas Green’s generous offer in ’83, it could have been you carrying Wrigley-inflated stats into the Hall today, along with the great Andre Dawson. Congratulations, Hawk!
And probably would have gotten a pennant with the Cubs in '84...
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
And we know how the real history turned out
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Very disappointed...
Andre Dawson was one of my first baseball heroes. This is a shining moment for all Cubs fans from this era, who have suffered for a long time. Sandberg and Dawson are really all we have after Maddux left for Atlanta and Sosa left for insanity.
I’m very disappointed in the fans of other teams and players who didn’t get in. I support Blyleven and Edgar Martinez’s case above Dawson’s as much as I love him. And I am sad they did not get in, as well as Roberto Alomar, who is even a superior 2b to Sandberg.
But I am sickened by their fans bashing Dawson because their guy did not get in without even acknowledging and congratulating Dawson for his achievement and honor. It won’t affect what I think of the player, but it will affect what I think of their fans.
Congratulations, Hawk! Today was truly a great day that brought joy to my heart… much like getting to see you play.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
Congratulations Hawk!
I’ll never forget the September day in 1989 vs the Cardinals where you scored from 1st on a Salazar double to score the winning run in the 10th in a tight pennant race to give the Cubs a 2 1/2 game lead. One of my favorite all time Cub moments. Andre Dawson HOF!!
"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"
Great news.
I started watching baseball in about 1988, and Andre Dawson was my first favorite player. I used to have a poster of him—first poster I ever bought—but it got lost in one of the assorted moves since then. So glad for this announcement.
Before each game, please remember to feed the bats.
Congrats Hawk!!!
Dawson was my first favorite player as I grew up watching the Cubs. It is well deserved.
Hey!
You still here??? Long time, no baseball chat!
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 7, 2010 8:47 AM CST up reply actions
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