Cubs Historic Photos: 14th In A Series
by Al Yellon on Jan 9, 2010 9:01 AM CST
in History
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PrintOf course, you know who this is -- Hall of Famer Bruce Sutter, who unfortunately went on to greater glory after he left the Cubs after the 1980 season.
Follow past the jump to find out more about this photo.
Unfortunately, there are no clues in this photo that would indicate the day's opponent. All you can figure from the photo itself was that it was taken early in the season -- likely April -- and that it was cold (long sleeves on Sutter and people wearing coats in the bleachers).
From the information given to me with the photo, it was taken in April 1980. Sutter appeared in four games at Wrigley in April 1980 -- April 17 vs. the Mets, April 19 vs. the Mets, April 22 vs. the Cardinals, and April 25 vs. the Pirates. He registered three saves and a win in those four appearances.
I was at the April 22 game -- that's a notable date in Chicago history, as the temperature reached 92 degrees. That still stands as the hottest day in the month of April in Chicago history. So the photo couldn't have been taken that day. The April 17 and April 19 boxscores have no weather conditions listed. I was at both of those games, too; April 17 was the home opener and April 19 was a Saturday -- I didn't write the weather conditions on my scorecards and, 30 years later, I have no recollection of what the weather was like those days.
My best guess is that this photo is from the April 25 game vs. the Pirates; the boxscore says it was 40 degrees that day with a wind blowing in from RF at 12 MPH. Sutter threw two innings that day, allowed one run, and posted his fifth save. The Cubs had won seven games and at 7-4, were in first place. The rest of the season was all downhill -- the 1980 Cubs lost 96 98 games and Sutter was traded away at the end of the season.
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The Ivy also doesn't seem to be full, either...
The Wrigleys……never understood the FA concept.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jan 9, 2010 9:11 AM CST reply actions
Well, you know the story behind Sutter.
He was awarded $700,000 in arbitration for the 1980 season. That doesn’t seem like much now, but it was the largest arb award given in the few years that the arb system had been in place.
The Wrigleys, notoriously cheap, said they couldn’t afford him any more. They paid him for 1980 and then traded him away. At least they got a few productive years out of Leon Durham from that deal.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
So what do you think, Al? If they'd held on to Sutter
there’s no Sandberg game, Buckner plays first in ‘84 instead of Durham and Sutter’s the closer with Smith as a set-up man. Durham had a very good ’84 minus the ground ball (he had even homered in that game earlier) but I kind of like our chances more with Sutter, huh?
Of course if everything is exactly the same but Buckner is standing at first instead of Durham when an important post season grounder comes his way… yeah, it’s a wash.
Interesting questions.
Had they held on to Sutter, maybe Smith — who by 1983 had established himself as one of the top relievers in the game — would have been traded, rather than be a Cubs setup man. Who knows who Dallas Green might have been able to acquire for Smith?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Thought I'd look at Smith's record.
It’s interesting to see why teams make it to the WS. A lot of things have to line up right. If Smith had been as good in ’84 as he was in ’83 (gave up a hit an inning in ’84) then the Cubs probably make it. Based on the two seasons, I sure like 1983 Smith facing Garvey over the ’84 version.
As for Green trading him – not sure what Smith’s value would have been had he not been a closer for a season plus coming into ‘84. I’m sure a scout for someone would have seen that he had nasty stuff.
Also...
… had Green not traded Sutter for Durham (and Ken Reitz, who was awful as a Cub), he would have had to find another outfielder and a third baseman somewhere. Remember, Durham played OF the first two years he was a Cub.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
True. Fun to unravel these things.
As for finding another third baseman though… that’s never been a problem for the Cubs. :)
Looking at the photo again...
… it might actually have been from the home opener. Attendance on 4/25 was only 7,714 — the small area of the bleachers showing in the shot has too many people for it to be on a cold day with that small a crowd.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Sutter only pitched the 9th
in the home opener and doesn’t it look like everyone’s standing? like maybe he was pitching to Jorgensen for the last out?
fesullivan
by waiting4cubs on Jan 9, 2010 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
When did this tradition begin?
I don’t remember routinely standing when the Cubs led with two outs in the top of the ninth as the opponent approached the plate in the 1960’s or 1970’s. I suspect it didn’t begin until the mid or late-1980’s. I recall watching a “Game of the Week” not long after this tradition began where the announcer, who obviously wasn’t aware of this tradition, praised the sportsmanship of the Cubs’ fans for giving the opposing batter a standing ovation.
I remember standing
for the last out when Sutter was pitching in 79. I remember this because that was the season Sutter was trying to (and succeeded) break Ted Abernathy’s save record
See the Cubs 2010 schedule at http://cubsbythenumbers.com/sched2010.html
Also see what old Cubs Scorecards looked like at http://cubsbythenumbers.com/scorecards.html
Note all of the trash on the field. . .
Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville
Yet more evidence it could be a 9th inning photo.
But then, Sutter rarely pitched before the 8th.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Not true!
Even in 1980, Sutter pitched more than one inning. If you look at the gamelogs from 1980, in 36 of the 60 games he pitched, Sutter entered the game in the 8th inning or before. In 1977, he usually entered the game in the seventh inning, which is what led to his arm problems that year. Afterwards, Herman Franks decided to only use him in save situations, but he didn’t limit him to only pitching the ninth.
Having a relief pitcher only pitch the ninth inning originated with Tony LaRussa and Dennis Eckersley in 1988.
Al, slight edit:
The 1980 Cubs lost 98 games, they were even worse than you make them out to be.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 9, 2010 12:33 PM CST reply actions
You're right.
Second highest loss total in team history.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Hey, I was at the April 25 game!
It was the last day of classes before spring break…and y’know, we would have been sitting not too far out of the background of this photo, a few rows up in the LF bleachers.
My memory is that it was a pretty chilly day out there, but nicely warmed by the win over the defending world champs and by Kingman….he (surprise) made a terrible fielding play early on, and then redeemed himself with the late homer. Everyone, even Kingman himself, was laughing at the change in reception he got….he even tipped his cap.
And man, Sutter was fun to watch in that era. That split-finger pitch was devastating – looked like a major league fastball on the way in, and then for no apparent reason it would just drop a foot. It was also fun to yell “Suuuuuuuuuu-ter!” when he was coming in.
"I tried to let Ryan know that [jumping over the dugout railing] was a thing that maybe just athletes should stick to." -- Ted Lilly, 28 July 2009
by CaughtInTheVines on Jan 9, 2010 2:11 PM CST reply actions
Sutter pitched multiple innings many times, I seem to remember
“Closers” were not just 1-inning men – yet. Lee Smith, Goose Gossage…would pitch more than one inning….TLR went to Dennis Eckersley, and the modern 1-inning closer was ‘born.’
Then, pitchers like Sutter went to one-inning-only.
At work and no time to research, but in one memorable game — didn’t Sutter pitch multiple innings in the “Sandberg” game?
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jan 9, 2010 3:26 PM CST reply actions
and FWIW
Lee Smith got the win pitching 2 innings in that game
Just because you talk a lot doesn't mean you're saying anything. dtpollitt 1-7-10
Interesting
A bit off the topic but look at the size of Sutter’s hand in that photo. You want to know why some guys can throw a splitter that well, look no further than that. He looks as though he’s throwing a golf ball.
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
His hands were huge.
I remember seeing a brief montage on WGN the day he became a baseball HOF member, and they showed the viewers several clips of his hands and how big they were.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 9, 2010 5:53 PM CST up reply actions
I remember Ray Rayner
wearing a “Sutterman” T-Shirt on WGN and giving a recap of Bruce Sutter’s game the day before every morning between Bugs Bunny cartoons.
Mike Rourke was the man who taught Bruce Sutter the split-finger fastball
It is that pitch that salvaged Sutter’s career which was destined otherwise to end quickly.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
I remember from that clip,
His fingers were big enough to wrap almost completely around the baseball, and when some guy (don’t ask me who, I don’t recognize him) wanted to compare the size of Sutter’s hands, Sutter stuck his fingers out and showed the kind of choke hold he would have put on the guy.
His hands were nearly as big the interviewer’s throat!
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 10, 2010 12:05 AM CST up reply actions
Freddy Kreuger had nothing on Suter
even with the glove lol
Just because you talk a lot doesn't mean you're saying anything. dtpollitt 1-7-10
BLou...
I believe it was Charlie Lau that taught Sutter how to throw the split-finger fastball.
It wasn't, but...
… the coach’s name was spelled “Roarke”, not “Rourke”.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Hey Al,
I just referred a new poster here, pseudonym “Coltsfanawalt.”
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 9, 2010 9:31 PM CST reply actions
If that pic is indeed from the home opener, then I was at the game
A depressingly small crowd if I recall. And entrance into the true dark years for a couple seasons until Dallas Green arrived.
Dallas Green was the absolute best thing to ever happen to the Cubs. If he were still around then the Cubs would have at least one World Series Championship by now. And he would never have permitted the salary dump of Bruce Sutter to St. Louis. He either would have found a way to pay him, or he would of commanded a much higher trade value beyond Leon Durham and his coke pipe.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
Dallas Green was cheap and hard headed back then
and why we lost Greg Maddux, he would not have spent on Suter. I believe the best thing that happened was the Tribune (hard as that may be to say) as they spent on advertising and lured over Harry who pushed the Cubs on everyone he spoke with.
Dallas Green helped the Cubs, but he also hurt them as much if not more than he helped them.
Just because you talk a lot doesn't mean you're saying anything. dtpollitt 1-7-10
Larry Himes was GM when Greg Maddux bolted for Atlanta
Dallas Green left the Cubs five years before Greg Maddux left the Cubs. Green drafted Greg Maddux. In addition to Mark Grace, Raffy Palmiero, Jamie Moyer and a host of other ultimately valuable pieces. Green also traded Ivan DeJesus for Ryne Sandberg and Larry Bowa. And made bold inspired trades for Rick Sutcliffe, Dennis Eckersley, Gary Matthews, Bobby Dernier and others.
To say Dallas hurt the Cubs more than he helped them is to talk out of your ass. My guess is you weren’t even alive back then.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
oops, you are right, Green was gone before Maddux left
and unlike you, I will admit my brainfart..
now for you to sit there and credit Green as you are, when you rip Hendry who has been more successful, I do find funny and ironic at the same time.
and, not that its any of your business, but my first trip to WF was in 1976.
See BLou, it doesnt kill anyone to admit a mistake when posted here (as I just did), but sadly you never will.
Just because you talk a lot doesn't mean you're saying anything. dtpollitt 1-7-10
and FWIW in 1987 before he signed Dawson
he wanted nothing to do with Hawk, and only signed him because Hawk signed a blank contract and said “fill in whatever you want, I am a Cub”
as Fred MItchell recalls it
Dallas Green, then the Cubs’ bombastic general manager, took umbrage at the fact the future Hall of Famer and Moss showed up with a blank contract. Green huffed and puffed, then referred to Dawson and Moss as "a dog and pony show
and if you take the time to read the article you will see something similar with Green then and Hendry now, hell since I know you wont click the link here it is BLou
“It all started in 1984 when we won (the division) and I had to sign all of those guys to multiyear contracts, and big contracts,” said Green, 75, now the senior adviser to the general manager of the Phillies. "You know, Rick Sutcliffe and Steve Trout and Scott Sanderson and Dennis Eckersley. … I had to re-sign all of those guys because they were on one-year deals. It took a pretty good chunk of dough. And, of course, in ‘85 we didn’t do too well, and in ‘86 we struggled a little, as well. It was where Tribune Co. finally had to put (its) foot down and say, ’Hey, we’re approaching the payroll we want to be at.’ I said, ’Well, I love this guy (Dawson).
yup, thats right Green went on a spending spree and hand cuffed himself with the budget allowed, sound familiar? Now can you say that Hendry is horrible and Green is great after reading that?
Just because you talk a lot doesn't mean you're saying anything. dtpollitt 1-7-10
It's like
Comparing two perfectly ripe apples that were taken off the same tree on the same day, and without any reason given, one was viewed as “bad” while the other was viewed as “good”.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 10, 2010 12:02 AM CST up reply actions
pretty much
both spend what they had, got handcuffed and had to tread water until the contracts were done. Green was gone before his were off the books, Hendry is being given a chance to push forward with his.
Just because you talk a lot doesn't mean you're saying anything. dtpollitt 1-7-10
btw Sutter was traded to the Cards after the 1980 season
Green was with the CUbs from 82-87 so I do not understand your statement
If he were still around then the Cubs would have at least one World Series Championship by now. And he would never have permitted the salary dump of Bruce Sutter to St. Louis.
so If he (Green) were still around in 1980 (two seasons before he joined the Cubs, was busy as the Manager of the Phillies until 1981) the salary dump (forced by bad contracts?) would not have happened. That makes no logical sense.
The Cubs struggled in 1985 and 1986. It finished last in 1987. In 1987, Green fired manager Gene Michael over Labor Day weekend, blasted his team for quitting in an interview with the Chicago Tribune, and then resigned as general manager and president of the Cubs in October 1987 citing “philosophical differences” with Tribune Company executives.
Green was the first Cubs executive to clash with the City of Chicago over lights in Wrigley Field. Green was a strong proponent of lights from the start of his tenure, but a city ordinance prohibited the Cubs from installing lights in the residential Lakeview neighborhood, where Wrigley Field was located. As Green saw it, the issue wasn’t lights or no lights, but Wrigley Field or move to the suburbs. Bluntly stating that “if there are no lights in Wrigley Field, there will be no Wrigley Field,” he threatened to move the Cubs to a new stadium in northwest suburban Schaumburg or Arlington Heights. He also seriously considered shutting down Wrigley Field for a year and playing at Comiskey Park as tenants of the White Sox, in hopes that the loss of revenue would temper or eliminate neighborhood opposition.
Just because you talk a lot doesn't mean you're saying anything. dtpollitt 1-7-10
Tim,
This is BLou we’re talking about here. He is not only entitled to his own opinions, but also to his own facts.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 10, 2010 12:28 AM CST up reply actions
So what if Green threatened to move the team?
If the Cubs had made it to the ‘84 World Series they would have lost a home game because they had no lights. If I were the GM I’d sure as hell work as hard as I could and use every weapon at my disposal to change that. Yeah, he threatened to move the team. What other hand did he have to play? It’s the same hand played over and over by every organization that wants something. And in Green’s case, it worked.
As you conveniently left out when copying the Wikipedia entry – “Green’s stance changed the context of the debate, as even the staunchest opponents of installing lights did not want to be held responsible for the Cubs leaving town. Shortly before Green’s departure, the Chicago City Council and Mayor Harold Washington (who died a week later) approved a change to the ordinance, allowing the Cubs to install lights in 1988.”
By all reports, Green was a jerk, but as BLou correctly pointed out, he turned the Cub minor league system into something that actually produced high quality players. Maddux, Palmiero, Dunston, Moyer and Grace all had long careers. Walton and Smith were keys to winning the division in ‘89. Hell, if Hendry could even produce a Davey Martinez I’d cut him some slack. Instead, he has to overpay at almost every position on the field because of a lack of young talent.
So they each got into a financial bind. It doesn’t change the fact that the Cub organization under Hendry is a failure at producing major league talent and under Green it wasn’t.
go see how I compare 1985 to 2009 and you will see
Green was given the green light to spend just as Hendry did.
The average salary of the Cubs was almost double the league average salary per player in 1985, where in 2009 the Cubs were slightly above league average per player.
Just because you talk a lot doesn't mean you're saying anything. dtpollitt 1-7-10
as you both skip over
he also traded away a lot of young talent, such as Joe Carter, Mel Hall, Moyer, Palmiero, etc. Just as Hendry gets blasted for doing. Or did you want to just leave that part out of the conversation?
Who did he get for Moyer and Palmiro? Steve Buechelle and MItch Williams. Sutclffe of course came over in the Mel Hall and Joe Carter deal. The players we got helped us in the short term, but the players we sent had more post trade success, right?
To ignore those type of facts while trying to take a jab at Hendry is the perfect example of the blinders some want to wear while discussing Hendry. He is not as bad as people continue to try and make him out to be.
Just because you talk a lot doesn't mean you're saying anything. dtpollitt 1-7-10
time to sleep
Palmeiro/Moyer traded post Green. Drinking and BCB sometimes create ooops
Just because you talk a lot doesn't mean you're saying anything. dtpollitt 1-7-10
I didn't skip over or ignore anything. The argument is over Green and Hendry.
Dallas Green didn’t trade Moyer and Palmiero, Jim Frey did. And though Hall and especially Carter had productive careers, I wouldn’t exactly say Sutcliffe only had short term success. While he was injured quite a bit, missing huge chunks of several seasons, he did start almost 200 games in less than eight seasons including being a starter on the ‘89 division winners. That’s more than short term success. And even if Joe Carter had turned out to be Willie Mays, if Frey had just brought Trout into game 5 to relieve Sutcliffe, the Cubs might have made that WS and not a fan would have cared what happened to Carter.
Hard to debate a
nuanced point-by-point argument like that. The idea, actually, is to play in the World Series and both GMs failed in that regard.
Anyway, looks like Jimbo has assembled another juggernaut for the 2010 season so let’s just sit back and enjoy the ride on the Sam Fuld Express.
You're wrong again
On Moyer and Palmeiro, both of whom were traded by Jim Frey after Green was fired.
And as far as Joe Carter and Mel Hall go, they were traded for Rick Sutcliffe. It wasn’t like they were just given away for crap. And Hall turned out to be nothing special anyway,
Green allowed Gordon Goldsberry to build a top flight farm system that drafted Maddux, Moyer, Grace, Palmeiro, Girardi, Dunston, Walton, etc.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 10, 2010 5:19 PM CST up reply actions
before either of you postefd
I said OOPS above about the trade by Frey not Green. Both of you missed that I guess.
time to sleep
Palmeiro/Moyer traded post Green. Drinking and BCB sometimes create ooops
by Cubbie-Tim on Jan 10, 2010 3:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I never said they were given away for crap either.
the players traded was part of the 3 am drunken oops, seeing as I was proginaly including Moyer and Palmeiro in my post. So I actually had admitted my oops and corrected it before both of you felt the need to do so again :=)
Just because you talk a lot doesn't mean you're saying anything. dtpollitt 1-7-10
I don't care about that and nowhere did I say anything about that.
I agreed that they had both maxed out on what the Trib was willing to fork over for salaries. I don’t care where that placed the Cubs in average salary in MLB. It doesn’t matter. They both spent to the ceiling on what they had to play with.
My points were that Green was a better GM because his minor league system produced players and Hendry’s hasn’t and that Green played hardball with the city when it came to lights, changed the debate and, in the end, there are lights at Wrigley Field.
Hendry has had more success, you cannot deny that
and it is simple to see. I am not saying that Hendry is Gods gift, but its just simple truth.
Lets keep in mind he has drafted (or been the GM when they were drafted)
Soto
Theriot
Marshall
Fuld
Shark
and some players who are being touted as the future like
Cashner
Vitters
Jackson
but what he has done, that is as important is make trades for players like Lee, Rami, Karros, Grudz, and so on. The name of the game is to get the best team you can in the dugout, and how you do that can be trade, FA, or draft. There is not a single formula to follow.
I believe Hendry has done a much better job than you are giving him credit for.
Just because you talk a lot doesn't mean you're saying anything. dtpollitt 1-7-10
I know he makes trades. He has to because he doesn't produce young players.
And some of this trades have been good. But this list of players speaks for itself and what it has to say ain’t too good. Soto did win ROY so I guess you could consider him and Walton a wash. Each won ROY and came back fat and unproductive the next year. Theriot is not very good. Marshall has been asked to do a tough job and has done it fairly well. Fuld and Shark? They did make it to the majors, I’ll give them that.
The success through trades and FA leads to what the Cubs are – a team with a year or two of success followed by backslides. The best way, short of simply nuking everyone else with money ala the Yankees, is to have a mix of home-grown talent that you aren’t paying through the ass for and veterans, also home-grown if possible, or, if necessary, acquired via trade or free agency.
a GM is hired to win, right?
who has wom nore as a Cub GM?
three division titles for Hendry
one for Green
end of story.
Just because you talk a lot doesn't mean you're saying anything. dtpollitt 1-7-10
As for drinking and BCB.
My snarky remark about nuanced arguments above was meant to go here. Time for bed.
there is still no debate
when one GM has 1 winning season in his time at the helm, and the other has 5 winning seasons at the helm.
Just because you talk a lot doesn't mean you're saying anything. dtpollitt 1-7-10
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