Hey, Jim Hendry. Bring Kerry Wood Home To The Cubs
by Al Yellon on Oct 14, 2010 9:20 AM CDT
in Chicago Cubs News
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Two years ago, Kerry Wood was closing games for the 97-win Chicago Cubs. Apart from missing four weeks with a blister, he spent the 2008 season without any recurrence of the elbow and shoulder troubles that had plagued him throughout his Cubs career.
But after that season, the Cubs chose to let him walk as a free agent. There are varying stories about why the Cubs let him go; clearly, the choice of Kevin Gregg to replace him in 2009 was not the right one. Once Carlos Marmol was installed as Cubs closer in August 2009, that position was solidified. Since August 23, 2009, Marmol has had 49 saves in 53 opportunities. In 88 appearances since that date covering 94.1 innings, Marmol has allowed 51 hits and 65 walks for a WHIP of 1.23, has struck out 164 batters and given up only two (!) home runs. We all know Marmol has his bouts of wildness and too many hit batters (nine in those 94.1 innings), but when he's on, he's lights-out.
One of the biggest problems for the Cubs in the season just concluded was the relief corps setting up Marmol. Before the season started I had hope that the at least one or two of the four rookies starting the year in the pen would step up. It didn't happen; I was wrong and bullpen failures helped ruin a season in which Cubs starting pitching led the major leagues in quality starts. Yes, I know the QS isn't necessarily the best measure of starting pitching, but it can at least be a gauge for comparison -- Cubs starters had more than the Phillies or Giants, both of whom are still playing baseball this fall.
The Cubs do have a good setup man in Sean Marshall, who seems to have finally found his niche as an excellent eighth-inning reliever. And Andrew Cashner had his moments, as did James Russell; a year's experience should make them better next year.
But there's one pitcher, a free agent after this year, who could really help solidify a young bullpen. It's pretty obvious from the headline and photo on this post who that pitcher is. After the jump, my reasons for pursuing Kerry Wood this offseason.
The Cleveland Indians signed Kerry Wood before 2009. Clearly, it wasn't the right place for him to go, although for the dollars he got ($21 million over two years), he'd probably tell you that part worked out all right. The Tribe was a bad team in 2009 and Wood several times went weeks in between save opportunities and had only 26 save opps for the entire season. That's no way for a closer to be consistent. This year, Wood had some back trouble early in the season and when he came back in early May, again had only 11 save opportunities in two months, and was traded to the Yankees at the non-waiver deadline of July 31 for a PTBNL.
The Yankees almost immediately figured out that Wood's arm angle was wrong:
"Our scouts told us that there was a lot left in his tank," Yankees pitching coach Dave Eiland said.
One outing after Wood's arrival, Eiland convinced the 33-year-old right-hander to stand taller on the mound and raise his arm slot to improve the downhill angle on his pitches. "Which is how he pitched earlier in his career," Eiland said.
Hmmm. Maybe the way he pitched when he was saving 34 games for the 2008 Cubs?
In any case, Wood was a lights-out setup man for Mariano Rivera; over 24 appearances covering 26 innings he posted a 1.23 WHIP, an 0.69 ERA and allowed only two runs and one home run.
He's got a pretty good shot at getting the World Series ring that eluded him in 2003. Without going into the excruciating details, we all remember how Wood cried at his locker after NLCS Game Seven, taking responsibility for not winning the pennant for the Cubs. He was always a team leader when he was here. The Cubs could use a guy like that, and having him and Marshall as a lefty-righty setup tandem behind Marmol would immediately make the Cubs bullpen better -- not to mention help give the young relievers a veteran mentor.
According to Wood's baseball-reference.com page, he has earned a little less than $70 million in his baseball career. If he gets a ring this season with the Yankees, he'll have both money and a championship. All that would be missing would be to help bring one to the Cubs; he was in the Cubs organization for 14 years and his wife's family still lives here.
While I'm not rooting for the Yankees in the playoffs, I'd be quietly happy for Kerry Wood if he got a ring... and then have Jim Hendry bring him home for 2011 -- at the right price, of course. Admittedly, I'm a big Wood fan, but this has less to do with sentiment than it does with the fact that Wood has turned himself into an excellent setup reliever. The Cubs desperately need one of those.
Get it done, Jim.
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Hey, Joe Girardi. Bring Kerry Wood With You To The Cubs
There – fixed that for you… ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I "heard" that.
Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Maybe...50/50?
Adam Dunn..2011 Chicago Cubs First Baseman - 3 yrs/$42 mill with a club option for a 4th.
Key question, Al: What's the right price?
I also question whether Kerry would look at the current Cubs roster and decide to sign here with eyes on a title.
I'd say around $3-4 million.
And this roster isn’t as far from contention as you might think.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
What moves would put the Cubs in contention?
Cliff Lee, Adam Dunn and Kerry Wood? Perhaps. Don’t see the budget for all 3.
Cliff Lee won't be a Cub.
But signing Dunn, signing Wood and getting another starter could put this team around the .500 mark if a lot of other things go well. Considering the Cardinals won the WS in 2006 after 83 regular season victories — and the Cubs won the division in 2007 with 85 victories — I consider around .500 to be in contention. That might not fit everybody’s definition of contention, but it fits mine.
And the moves I suggested wouldn’t cripple the team’s long-term plans, which is absolutely key.
What starter?
Outside of Lee, I really don’t see a starter who is available that would improve this team.
The Cubs are loaded with 2-4 type starters, and aside from Lee, I don’t see any names that I see as being a real improvement over what the Cubs already have.
Eamus Ursuli!
Ok
Lilly is fine and I would love to see him back, but frankly I just don’t see him as a difference maker in terms of pushing this team into the postseason.
Eamus Ursuli!
Doesn't that put us in the same boat we were in this year?
Hoping to get lucky and get to 85 wins and sneak into the playoffs doesn’t strike me as the best strategy. Especially because I expect the Reds to continue to improve and the Cardinals will probably have a better season next year as well.
It's not the best strategy at all.
But given where we are with contracts, with the maturation of young players and the fact that Ricketts wants to lower the payroll (however slightly) … it’s the only strategy we’ve really got.
Well, first of all ...
I’ve repeatedly said that the Cubs, with a couple good moves this offseason and some good luck next season, could get to about 85 wins and have a shot at the Central. So don’t throw me in the pessimists’ camp.
That said, I don’t think Kerry would look at that and say, “Hey, it’s time to go win a title in Chicago.”
However.
If he wins a ring this year — why not? Why not come home and be up for the challenge of winning here?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think he could come back.
I just don’t think winning a title in 2011 will be in his thoughts if he does.
It’s also possible his success since going to the Bronx will take him out of the price range you’re suggesting.
Possibly so.
The Yankees might offer him way too many dollars to stay. Also, it’s possible Mariano Rivera could retire after this year. Wood can still close — the Yankees could keep him for that.
But if Mariano plays another year… I’d say Hendry could get in the mix.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
theres no way in hell rivera retires this year
I Like Mike
by jesus christos on Oct 14, 2010 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Won't the Yankees want him back?
Look into my eyes!
by katie casey on Oct 14, 2010 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Couldn't you say the same for Girardi? And he's already won a ring.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
It's a different story, isn't it, with a manager?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Maybe.
Sorry, I wasn’t calling you out. I was merely pointing out that I’ve heard this argument for Joe coming here.
No, I understand what you're saying.
It’s a valid point. But, I do think it would be different from a managerial perspective than for a GM going after a free-agent player.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Is it? I've thought about it for awhile and nothing jumps out at me.
Obviously the jobs are different but why should coming home and the challenge and desire to be part of a WS winner here in Chicago be any different for a player than a manager?
The money might be different as typically star players make more than managers, but in this situation, Wood and Girardi’s salaries might be pretty close.
Only difference I can think of is a manager typically being more visible than a player, although I’m sure there have been exceptions to that rule. But again, in this scenario, I see both of them more than willing to accept and handle the pressure of trying to be “that guy”.
What differences to you see?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
As noted above...
… there isn’t a “free agent market” for managers as there is for players. It’s a whole different game in the way they are recruited and signed.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
There'd be a "free agent market" for this manager, should he make himself available.
But going back to your original comment:
If he wins a ring this year — why not? Why not come home and be up for the challenge of winning here?
Again – why does this argument work for Kerry but not for Joe? Just because Kerry is a player and Joe is a manager? Just because there’s a different process in how managers are recruited and signed doesn’t impact a desire to come home and face a challenge.
Answer me this – hypothetically speaking of course – let’s just say that Girardi does get hired by the Cubs. At the introductory press conference, when Sullivan asks Girardi why he left the Yankees, are you telling me Joe’s not going to say something along the lines of “it was a chance to come home and I look forward to the challenge of bringing a World Series title to the Cubs and their fans.”
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
There’d be a “free agent market” for this manager, should he make himself available.
Doubt it. It just doesn’t work the same way. For one thing, players have a (generally) finite shelf life — we know most playing careers peak in a player’s late 20s/early 30s and decline from there.
Meanwhile, a 46-year-old manager (Girardi) could manage 20+ more years. It’s just not the same market.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Huh?
Who said anything about a manager signing a 20 year contract?
I’m talking about right here, right now, this particular situation. Are you saying if Girardi made himself available, he would NOT have several teams to choose from? And is that not the same position Wood will find himself in?
And you still haven’t answered why a manager wouldn’t want to come home and face a challenge.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Nobody said anything about a 20-year contract.
It’s a different process. That’s all I’m saying.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Of course the process is different. No argument there.
But the emotions (coming home) and reasons (challenge of winning a title) for signing with a team can be the same, regardless of whether you’re a manager or a player.
This whole sub-thread started because it appeared to me that you disputed that notion.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Why it would be bad for Girardi to be a Free Agent
For players it is an accepted part of the culture to test the free agent waters. If Wood were to flirt with other teams, including the Cubs, and then resign with the Yankees nobody would even think twice about it.
However, if your manager were to start putting out feelers and I have a sense that it might be different. That is one position in baseball where loyalty is highly valued. A big part of the reason that he was able to succeed in NY is that he came in as a Torre guy and former teammate. I am not sure how it would fly if he were to be a FA and then still come back to NY.
Eamus Ursuli!
I think it's pretty safe to say that if Girardi wants to play the field...
…he’s not going back to NY.
Not sure what you mean by the putting out feelers part. Girardi (or any manager for that matter) putting out feelers now, while he’s still under contract, would be unethical to say the least. But after the Yankees are done for the season and he’s no longer under contract? Feel away – shouldn’t be a problem.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I think we agree then
As you state, if he want to “play the field” he won’t be returning to NY.
So, while he is obviously free to move, and perhaps he does want to come to the Cubs, that to me is still fundamentally different than the way players work in the FA market.
Eamus Ursuli!
yeah, there does seem to be a double standard in place
Seems to be perfectly acceptable for players in the last year of a contract to offer up sound bite hints of where they’d like to play next, but it’s almost unheard of for a manager to do the same.
Then again, that’s probably the difference between being a leader, i.e. the manager, and a worker, i.e. the player. So maybe it’s not a double standard – just a different standard.
I’d still wish though that players would just keep their mouths shut more.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Sigh.
Kerry Wood fills a role that’s needed and could likely be had at the right price.
Ted Lilly would be too expensive.
Mark DeRosa is too old and too injured.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Kerry Wood makes sense.
It’s not being a homer or anything. The numbers tell a story and Kerry Wood as a solid 7th/8th inning guy could be huge.
Just because you bring up Wood doesn’t mean we need to talk about DeRosa.
by niuhuskie224 on Oct 14, 2010 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions
I give up. No one gets my humor.
It’s my way of saying I think that it’s sentimental wanting Wood back no matter how much we deny it.
Look into my eyes!
by katie casey on Oct 14, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Sure, there's sentiment involved.
But if he had kept pitching the way he was with Cleveland, I wouldn’t have written this post.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
What about DeRosa?
Hear me out. He’s old and banged up. But what if the Cubs sent someone like Silva or Kosuke to San Francisco? DeRosa fills the Cubs’ fourth outfielder spot, he can play first and he’s a team leader. He would essentially fill the role Nady filled this year with the ability to play third or second in a pinch.
The reason DeRo worked so well on the Cubs in 2007-08 was that he was an everyday player who could play multiple positions — which is extremely useful on a team with a lot of injury-prone veterans who can only play one position.
I guess a key question would be DeRosa’s health …
That's an important key question.
Look into my eyes!
by katie casey on Oct 14, 2010 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Another one.
Would the Giants take either of those contracts?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yeah, I don't know.
The Giants DO have a lot of contracts expiring at the end of the season, including a lot of position players they got mid-year (Burrell, Guillen, Ross). I kinda doubt they’d take Silva, given the staff they already have. But it’s possible they’ll be looking for outfielders.
The key would be whether they need someone with Kosuke’s skillset (defense, OBP, lefty bat) or DeRosa’s (versatility, righty bat).
I don’t know enough about the Giants to say. But I would explore this if I’m Jimbo.
hey you guys, stop teasing me!
I ♥ DeRo
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Oct 14, 2010 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Here...I'll post that pic for you.
Look into my eyes!
by katie casey on Oct 14, 2010 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
thanks katie,
love that pic!
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Oct 14, 2010 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
Ladies - remember this line for your man
Annie Savoy: Listen, sweetheart, you shouldn’t listen to what a woman says when she’s in the throes of passion. They say the darndest things.
Ebby Calvin LaLoosh: Yeah, you said “Crash”!
Annie Savoy: Honey, would you rather I were making love to him using your name, or making love to you using his name?
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 14, 2010 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
"Borrowed" from www.cubby-blue.com
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
I'm very serious about this, actually.
I don’t know if the Giants would do it. But it seems like they could use a good defensive right fielder in that big ball park, and the Cubs could use a utility guy and have an extra right fielder, unless Colvin goes to first. And DeRosa would negate the need for Baker, and Barney could be the middle infielder backup.
Maybe I’m on crack, but I wonder if the Giants would even be willing to pay most of the difference between salaries — giving the Cubs some savings.
wow, sounds like a plan to me
really, cat, I wish you were our GM ;)
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Oct 14, 2010 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, thank you.
I might just be playing fantasy baseball, though.
No to DeRosa
He is done. He hasn’t played well in two years. He’ll be 36 next year and hasn’t played quality 2nd base since he was with the Cubs. He’s also been hurt the past two years as well.
The past is the past.
Unless the Giants take all of Fukudome’s deal which I doubt, I have no interest in DeRosa.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
I think the Giants taking Kosuke IS the plan
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Oct 14, 2010 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
He wouldn't really have to play a quality second base.
DeRosa’s role (if he’s healthy) would be as the fourth outfielder, as a backup corner infielder and second base in a pinch. The Cubs have no one on the roster right now who’s even close to that versatile.
Meanwhile, Kosuke is a $14.5 million platoon outfielder who has no real role on this team, other than to tempt a new manager to not give Tyler Colvin playing time. I know Kosuke has some pluses (defense, OBP) which is why he might be of interest to San Francisco.
There’s an $8 million difference in the two players’ salaries. I’d send Kosuke to SF along with half of the difference, put Colvin in right, DeRo on the bench and use the money saved to sign Kerry Wood.
This is all assuming that DeRo is healthy and that the Giants are interested. But if he is and they are, I would make this deal in a freaking heartbeat.
The Blue Brothers
Jake: How are you gonna get the band back together, Mr. Hot Rodder? Those cops have your name, your address…
Elwood: They don’t have my address. I falsified my renewal. I put down 1060 West Addison.
Jake: 1060 West Addison? That’s Wrigley Field.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 14, 2010 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know if I am crazy or optimistic or both
but I feel like the Cubs are 4 signings away from fielding a playoff contender.
Solid RP – Kerry Wood
Solid SP – Cliff Lee but it will never happen. So why not a Blanton/Vazquez combo. Vazquez in the NL has always been pretty decent and Blanton could be a solid 4 or 5. You could then go Demp/Z/Wells/Blanton/Vazquez. I doubt the money works but that 5 in a weak NL may not be terrible.
1B – Plenty to choose from, just make sure it’s the right one, not like RF 2 years ago when we….never mind.
Is that crazy? Prolly. The Cubs aren’t going to spend a ton of money but I really feel like this 2011 could be 2007 all over again.
No on Blanton.
The Cubs already have guys who can do what Blanton does — Gorzelanny, Coleman, etc.
Vazquez, maybe, at the right price.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If he keeps pitching like he has been recently...
..someone will overpay him for sure…
I would love to see him back here and like to believe that he would want to “come home” but if he gets a silly offer, you can be certain he would take it.
That's kinda what I was getting at earlier.
Al is kind of hinting that Kerry would come back out of loyalty with the idea of winning a title here. I’m sure he feels loyalty to the Cubs, but would he really look at the current team and think that we have a real shot at a title?
You raise a valid point.
And as I said, this team isn’t as far from contending as your post implies.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
My point is ...
that the Cubs don’t look like contenders right now. They could, as I said earlier, put a good enough team together to win the weakest division in baseball.
But doing that and convincing a former player that the team is close to winning a title are different things. I can see Kerry coming back out of pure loyalty, combined with a good offer. But I don’t see him doing it with thoughts on a championship in 2011.
It really makes mehate that Grabow deal right now...
…those dollars should would nice to throw towards Wood or someone similar.
They'd be nice to throw at anybody right now.
Anybody not named John Grabow.
in other news
you can get a HWSNBN jersey for 49 bucks at one of the online sites for the Cubs paraphernalia shops around Wrigley.
The recession was heck, wasn’t it.
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
Am I reading this right?
Kerry Wood (34) – $11MM club option – Type B
That’s what it’ll cost the Yankees to keep him? That’s incredible and insane all at once.
Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Maybe...50/50?
Adam Dunn..2011 Chicago Cubs First Baseman - 3 yrs/$42 mill with a club option for a 4th.
Could they negotiate a cheaper deal?
Otherwise, this is an excellent point.
True enough.
Wood’s option would have been guaranteed if he had 55 games finished this year, which he didn’t. According to Cot’s, there’s no buyout number. So the Yankees can decline the option and try to sign him to a cheaper deal.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Ok ill be the homer
Bring him back cause I miss him, he is a great leader (something this team lacks), veteran bullpen arm (somthing that COULD help the young kids we have in the pen now) and he is a CUB. He was one, is one, and always will be a cubbie at heart. And to me that mentality is somthing I want on this team.
Yes! I'm all 4 it.
my thoughts exactly .
Sandberg for manager!
by mrcubsfan on Oct 14, 2010 3:53 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Interesting that Yankees scouts figured out..
..the arm angle issue with Wood and were able to correct Granderson’s swing late this season too. (mentioned during the game the other night)
People are always quick to say the Yankees win because of their payroll, sounds to me like they have a pretty good support system too.
I think the payroll
extends into the support system
by hansman1982 on Oct 14, 2010 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Wood would sing for less
Maybe a blank contract like Dawson did? No longer Kid K but a great lcubhouse guy and he would come along with Giaradi if we get him. But I still think we need a solid #1 starter first. Would Grinke be available?
Count me as someone who would love Kerry Wood back.
As to whether it happens; well, it’s kind of like when the Cubs were going after Greg Maddux prior to the 2004 season. I took kind of a “believe it when I see it approach”. That one materialized, of course, so it’s certainly possible that this one will too. All I can say is, I’m in favor of it, and I’d be thrilled if it happens. The question is, if they got Kerry, do you think they would at least try to move Cashner to a starter?
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
It would have to be in Iowa.
The Cubs have a lot of starting options already in the majors.
Where would that leave Cash?
I would be in favor of bringing Wood back if it allows Cash a shot in the rotation. Cashner has too much talent to be limited to 7th inning duty.
by Mmurton on Oct 14, 2010 10:30 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
talent yes
pitches to chose from to throw – no
same thing could be said about Marshall but he is just too damn valuable in the 8th inning role
by hansman1982 on Oct 14, 2010 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd like to hope he'd be willing to return,
but as I remember it, he seemed confused and disappointed with the Cubs reporting to the media how he wasn’t returning. It sounded at the time that he was willing to do what it took to stay here, including taking a 1 year deal, but that the Cubs didn’t offer him that. I know that the owners weren’t in place then, but Hendry was. I definitely hope that that wouldn’t keep Kerry away.
I'd be happy if he came back
but it comes down to what Kerry Wood wants to do for the remainder of his baseball career. He’s still good enough that, with several teams looking for closers this offseason, he could possibly find one, and perhaps one with a contender (TB comes to mind if they could clear enough to offer him, say, 4-5 mil and incentives). If he goes to a team like the Cubs for a setup role, his chances of becoming a closer again significantly diminish. It’s somewhat like the Capps situation this offseason – going to the Nationals made the most sense for Capps baseball career, and it’s quite possible that Wood may ponder a closing gig elsewhere, if offered, even if it’s not on a contender.
It’s a decent enough offseason to find righty setup arms (Frasor/Crain come to mind) that I’m not too worried.
As for the Yankees, I think they’ll make a pitch to keep him. Money won’t be an issue, but with Joba likely slated as Mariano’s replacement, they may not go that high with Kerry.
Al, you are almost at attached to Wood as I am to Maddux,
but I think you way over sentimentalize the desire of someone who has been let go by the Cubs to come back. I know you don’t really believe Girardi would come back as others do, but I don’t find this that different. Wood has been hugely successful with the Yankees who basically resurrected his career from the dead. It is hard to imagine they won’t make him a decent offer. I am sure his wife would love to be back in Chicago, but not enough to screw his career over it. Thinking that if he gets a ring with the Yankees he will somehow want to come back and lead the Cubs to one is a bit silly to me. I expect Wood and Girardi do both dream of helping the Cubs win a World Series, but when they wake up they realize they are happy where they are and have no reason to leave.
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 14, 2010 10:47 AM CDT reply actions
If you substitute the word Maddux with Lilly,
you exactly sum up what I was thinking reading Al’s post. I’d also add that not only do I not see this happening, I don’t think I want it to. I’m not totally against it. Just can’t get enthused about the idea. No offense to you or Kerry Wood, but somehow it feels like a step back into lovable loserishness to me.
Look into my eyes!
by katie casey on Oct 14, 2010 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Rangers Could Be Attractive Option
Kerry himself is originally from Texas. I’m sure he would love to pitch for a competitive team in his home state.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
He could but I don't see why he needs any options
The Yankees black hole was a reliable set up guy and now that they have one, why would they let him go?
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 14, 2010 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
It's not totally up to the Yankees unless they decide to exercise that $11M option
Assuming they don’t, then why wouldn’t Kerry want some options?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Well "options" as in making sure he gets the contract he wants
from the Yankees , sure. I doubt the Cubs get into a bidding war for him and I don’t see them offering as much as the Yankees.
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 14, 2010 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually the 11 Million option is out
It was a vesting option and Wood did not make it (finishing 55 games in either of the first two seasons) so he will just be a straight FA.
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 14, 2010 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions
well then it's totally up to Wood - he's free to do what he wants.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Of course he can
but my point is short of the Cubs offering him a crazy amount of money why would he leave the Yankees?
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 14, 2010 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Haven't you been reading?
Chance to come back to Chicago, challenge of winning here.
Chance to go home to Texas, good team, lots of $, and Nolan Ryan.
Chance to be a closer again for good teams (Rays, Braves, etc.)
All of those are valid reasons for wanting to leave Yankees. It’s just a matter of what he wants to do.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I think too much is made of players "going home"...
… to a place they left after high school and didn’t really live there much afterwards.
Wood’s home is in Chicago; he also has a home in Arizona. I doubt he’s spent much time in Texas over the last 15 years.
Same thing with Sandberg going “home” to Seattle — which is almost 300 miles from where he grew up in Spokane, and where he’s spent virtually no time for more than 30 years. He’s lived fulltime in Arizona since the late 1980’s.
Depends on your definition of “home”, I guess, ballhawk. You’re from Ohio, right? Where do you now consider “home”? I’d guess Chicago.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Are you disagreeing that Texas would be an attractive option for Wood?
Doggie seems to think that Wood has no reason to want to leave the Yankees. I listed several reasons that have already been raised in this post. Even if the “home” factor doesn’t come into play w.r.t. Texas, it’d still be a good landing spot for Wood, wouldn’t it?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Yeah, I suppose it would.
But it would have nothing to do with “home”.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He has very little reason to leave the Yankees
They are the ones who managed to get him to be an effective pitcher for the first time in years. I think they are very happy with him in a role they had a lot of trouble filling. I can see him leaving the Yankees IF he screws up in the post season and they are not particularly interested keeping him or they will only offer him one year guaranteed and another team or teams will offer him a multi-year deal. It means more money but it also means more stability which I expect he would like.
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 14, 2010 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions
That doesn't make much sense
First you say he has very little reason to leave the Yankees; then you offer up reasons why he would leave. Which is it?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Not that complicated
He could leave the Yankees IF he pitches poorly in the post season and the Yankees decide to to pursue him or if he could get a LOT more money and stability ( more years) with another team. Since the Yankees rarely get outbid on players they want, I think it very unlikely Wood will have much reason to leave.
Is that so confusing?
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 14, 2010 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Oops - you did it again.
Only this time you reversed it. First you give several reasons why he could leave, then you say it’s unlikely he’ll have much reason to leave.
And you continue to ignore the non-financial reasons previously mentioned here, such as the lure of Chicago and the lure of being a closer again, to name two.
Kerry Wood is going to be a free agent. He will most likely have several teams to choose from. And he will most likely choose the team that makes the most sense for him, not you or me or Al.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I have changed nothing
It always possible an FA will leave a team, I said from the start it is very unlikely because he would have no reason to do so. I don’t believe in the sentimental stuff about him wanting to come back to Chicago or going to Texas etc.
With all due respect right now Kerry Wood has been effective for less than half a season. I don’t think that many teams will anxious to offer him a lot of money or a multi-year deal. I actually doubt the Cubs would even make a play for him. The Yankees are the team which took a chance on him and has him on a team in he post season and are well known to pay gobs of money.
It is a little hard to imagine why a team which helped him become a very good pitcher again. pays the best money in the game and wins most of the time would not make the “the most sense to him”.
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 14, 2010 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, apparently we can now add Kerry Wood to the list of players
that you seem to know everything about, have had deep conversations with, and are quite intimate with all the inner workings of his thought process to the point of you obviously knowing what is best for him. Kerry is indeed lucky to have you as his confidante and second agent.
I am truly humbled by all the experts here on BCB. Clearly I need to post less and just watch and learn from the masters.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
It does not take any "personal" insight
to see a players financial and talent situation.
You are the one suggesting that somehow he loves Chicago or Texas so much he would leave
a championship team that will almost certainly offer him good money.
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 15, 2010 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions
This almost makes too much sense for Jim Hendry to do!
So I doubt it would happen.
But I love the idea and agree with everything Al says about it…
But will Jim and Tom Wrigley try it?
Marshall, Wood, and Marmol
That would make for a pretty nice top 3 in the bullpen. Quite frankly, most teams don’t have more than 3 good relievers anyway. Okay, it “ain’t” Myers, Dibble, and Charlton, but it’s still pretty good.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
I like it
Kerry would fill an important role. We could move Cash to the rotation, though I wouldn’t mind Cash getting some innings in Iowa first. How about signing Jon Garland (I think he is a free agent) for rotation depth and to buy time for Cashner, and adding O-Dog and LaRoche to the right side of the infield (one-yr, cheap contracts only). That team would, I think, actually be competitive with Cincinnati for the division, not be too pricey, and flexible enough to adjust if it doesn’t work. Not sure how it would compete with Philly, though. Just random thoughts … not a ton of analysis behind it.
"We gotta circle the bandwagons." - Devin Hester
Happy Anniversay everyone!
102 years ago today: Detroit, Michigan. Cubs 2 Tigers 0.
(7 years ago today, however, a foul ball drifts toward the seats along the left field line with Alou in pursuit …)
One of Lee Elia's 15%
You too...er...I guess.
Don’t really feel like celebrating though. Wish we could switch the amount of years around for those two.
Look into my eyes!
by katie casey on Oct 14, 2010 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
That would be nice.
One of Lee Elia's 15%
by waiting4cubs on Oct 14, 2010 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
if you told someone
on November 1, 1908 that the Cubs would not win a WS title again in their or their children’s lifetime they would have taken a giant bet and then laughed you into the poorhouse
by hansman1982 on Oct 14, 2010 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
World Series Over On October 14
We’re never going to have a World Series BEGIN as early as October 14 again. That World Series in 1908 was over on October 14.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Still..
… that only makes the season two weeks longer than it was 100 years ago.
Compare that to other sports.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Fair Enough
I had more interest in the World Series, when it was in mid-October. Now, unless there is a compelling matchup or a compelling Series. I don’t care nearly as much about the World Series as I did. Last year, we actually had a great matchup and good Series with the Phillies and Yankees. There could be a repeat of that this season.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
7 years ago
That is the date that hits me. Putting the outcome aside…
7 years ago most of the division series games and all of the NLCS and ALCS games were broadcast nationally on free TV, and on October 14, the LCSs were about to wrap up.
2010, majority of postseason games relegated to TBS and the LCS won’t even begin until the 15th of October.
Ugh.
Eamus Ursuli!
The schedule makers this year were smoking something fierce.
The crazy thing is this wasn’t even a WBC year. I honestly do not know what their plan was this year, but it would be entertaining to listen to them try to explain their thinking.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Babe Ruth's called shot in 1932....
was on October 1st I think. And that was Game 3, after two games in New York, then a travel day! Since it was a four-game sweep, the series ended that year on October 2nd. Now granted, it would be terrible to have to go almost the entire month of October with no baseball. But to play into November is completely unnecessary, except in the case of 2001, when they didn’t play for about a week after 9/11. That was a rare exception.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
FWIW: Cubs 1935 World Series Program
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
I attended one of those events...
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 14, 2010 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
1908!
But I’ve aged very well. Must have been the annual Calistoga Springs treatments.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 14, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
...
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
Thanks for reminding me. I have to watch that.
I’m a bit partial to Bela’s version, but still one of my favorites.
Look into my eyes!
Bela's version ????
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
I assume you mean Lugosi Béla - He never did Nosferatu, did he?
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
No not Nosferatu, but Dracula.
Nosferatu is pretty much the Bram Stoker Dracula story using different names for the characters. Nosferatu is closer to the book if you ask me.
Look into my eyes!
Indeed
Bram Stoker’s family sued and won over NOSFERATU and all copies were supposed to be destroyed. Luckily some survived
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 14, 2010 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions
rumor has it
that it exists in a private collection or two in Europe.
And one in Berwyn.
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
Those rumors come up all the time
There is briliant parody site a film buff did one year showing how it was never "lost’ and recreating fake posters from college showings, mock listings in old collector catalogues etc.
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 14, 2010 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions
You would probably be disappointed
Mark of the Vampire is a literal scene for scene remake. The great film historian Bill Everson did see it when it still existed and he said it was not that good.
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 14, 2010 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I grew up watching Creature Features.
WGN’s use of that image always had me curious to see the movie if only to see Lon Chaney in that makeup. Also, I somewhat enjoyed Mark of the Vampire, so…
Look into my eyes!
An interesting rumor: Nosferatu is Dracula but the producers could not afford the rights to the novel.
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
That's the year I was "born."
Supposedly I was conceived while riding a subway train, but I have my doubts about that.
Look into my eyes!
Doubts? Subway or Date? Or both?
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
My namesake is from the song Take Me Out to the Ballgame
written in 1908, hence when I was ‘born.’ I have read that the commonly told story about it being written on a subway train may be false.
Look into my eyes!
I know - I was teasing.
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
conceived while riding a subway train
Yeah, I hear it can get like that on the L during rush hour.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 14, 2010 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions
As GM, I would offer $2 M guaranteed
plus another $2 M in incentives based on appearances. Keep in mind he was hurt much of this year.
However, while I understand why many fans would want to see Kerry back with the Cubs, to me it seems like taking a step backward. I would rather see the same money put toward a Jason Frasor type, a new face who’s from Chicago.
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
Unless he's really interested in giving us a discount
I don’t see any way in which he doesn’t get $3-4m in the open market.
This is so much better than last offseason.
Considering the first player Al mentioned that the Cubs should sign last year was Chad Tracy. I agreed then, as I do with Wood. Hopefully Hendry follows suit (and it turns out better).
I am worried that some team will throw closer money at Wood. Surely every team in contention might want him. Braves and Rays will need a closer. Angels. How about the White Sox and Mets? Couple that with the Yankees and even a potential homecoming in Texas and I am wondering how probable this is.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Oct 14, 2010 12:35 PM CDT reply actions
side note
there seems to be a decent chance the Braves will go internally, and the Rangers don’t have a closing role to offer, as all indications are that Feliz will stay in the pen for good.
My hunch is that the Angels go internal and perhaps try Jordan Walden out for the closer’s role, but it certainly is possible they consider a vet. I imagine most of their money will be spent retooling that offense (or at least, I imagine that’d be their preference).
I was thinking more 7th/8th inning for the Rangers
And I know they already had a good bullpen during the season, and thus less need for him than other teams. But could Wood pass up the chance to pitch for Nolan Ryan in Texas if they wanted him? This would also reunite Wood with Prior, which would be tragically hilarious if they thrived or dived.
Also the Braves will likely need to replace Saito, as well, so they might have interest in Wood as a set up guy.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Oct 14, 2010 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions
what have you heard about Feliz staying in the closer role?
Last I heard – granted, it was awhile ago – Texas still had plans to move him back to being a starter.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
This
Unless he just really wants to return to Chicago (which may be so), I think Wood will have the opportunity to close for somebody next year. Also, I would expect the Yankees will view him as a nice insurance policy for Rivera (he can’t pitch forever, can he?) and make a good offer for him to stay.
Basically, the Cubs would be asking him to come in and fill the 7th inning role (or maybe the 8th depending on matchups). Not sure he would go for that.
Good points.
I still think Kerry would come here before he went anywhere else. True, other teams might offer him a big deal to fill their closer role, but I think Kerry’s situation is a lot like the Girardi situation. If they Yankees threw big money at him, and they have a world championship team, it’s going to be tough to get him to leave. If the Cubs think Kerry will give them a hometown discount just because he and Hendry are friends and his wife is from Chicago, they’re kidding themselves. They’re going to have to pony up some competitive dough. I would think Kerry would like to return, but the circumstances are going to have to be right.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Amazing that Kerry is only 33.
Seems like he has been around forever, and I was thinking he was at least 35, if not older. I keep forgetting that he was only 20 when he made his debut in ’98, and I guess with the injury history that he has, 33 for him is kind of the equivalent of 37 or 38 for other guys. If he can stay healthy, he definitely could have some decent years left.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
i'd love Kerry back at $2-3.5 million
especially if it allows Cashner to return to the rotation (in Iowa at first)
Given everything Kerry said about willingness to take a 1 yr deal, etc before, i would put it to him as a Cubs GM and make a 1 yr offer with a club option for a 2nd yr
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 14, 2010 1:57 PM CDT reply actions
considering Hendry
let Kerry go the first time around, in Kerry’s interest (or whatever words Hendry used at the time), I doubt the chances of Hendry offering a 1 year with a club option. I also think Kerry likely will get at least a solid 2 year deal, if not your standard-ish 3 year deal for veteran setup arms. I’m fine with going to 3/12 for Kerry, maybe even a tinge more. I think it’ll really come down to what he wants to do for the rest of his career – moving to the setup role now likely diminishes the chances of him closing again.
maybe i'm letting subjectivity bias me here
but i get the feeling Kerry might be willing to return at a discount. He hasnt “looked” the same since leaving, perhaps i’m reading too much into it, but it doesn’t look like he’s seemed as happy elsewhere
he had made his home in chicago, if he gets a ring and the annual difference in dollars isn’t significant (say 3 vs. 4), i could definitely see him returning
i agree though, comes down to what he wants. I just think what he wants will be a chance to return
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 14, 2010 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
There certainly doesn't seem to be any bad blood.
But as for seeming happy elsewhere … that could be a reach. I mean, he’s seemed happy — if effective means happy — since going to the Yankees.
From a baseball-winning-title-chances perspective, who wouldn't be happy moving from Cle to NYY?
But from what I’ve read, he’s really really enjoyed playing for Girardi. I’m guessing they had a good relationship when both were on the Cubs, so getting together again – especially in a winning environment – has to be a lot of fun.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Al, you know Kerry was my favorite Cub
so I heartily agree and approve this post. lol
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
Amen, Al.
Unfortunately, the Yankees mught tempt Wood to stay in NY for more money that the Cubs might be willing to pay, now that Rickets has annonced he intends to reduce payroll for next season. But your analysis is solid. Mark another mistake in Jim Hendry’s record as GM.
I have no regrets in rooting for the Yankees this postseason. I have two reasons: First, my son, a Yankees fan, and second, so that Kerry Wood finally get his World Series ring.
Will he return to Wrigley next season as a Yankee? We’ll see.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
If you’re saying that failing to re-sign Kerry was a mistake by Hendry, I’ll have to disagree with you. The Cubs could not afford $20 million (or $30 million, counting the option) after 2008. Kerry struggled in Cleveland — I suppose you could say he would have been better in Chicago — but letting him go after 2008 was perfectly acceptable.
Now, if you want to talk about the things Hendry did before Kerry left (overpaying for a lot of guys and limiting payroll flexibility) or what he did after Kerry left (getting Gregg as a replacement and continuing to overpay for a lot of guys limiting payroll flexibility), I’d probably agree.
But in the 2008-09 offseason, with other needs to fill, with the payroll already bloated and with Kerry gearing up for $20 million on the open market … letting Kerry go made sense.
I agree, but then, why pay other pitchers like Grabow and not Wood to set-up?
Your point is valid, though. Wood was too expensive at the time. My point is that he was way more effective than other relievers that were overpaid by the Cubs. If Hendry was going to spend (overspend, I’d say) it made more sense to make it by signing Wood. I should have been explicit on this, though.
by Fraggin Judge on Oct 14, 2010 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions
as a side note
the reduced payroll likely won’t impact this. There is, depending on estimates for arb cases, around 10-15 million of leeway right now. A righty setup arm, at market rates, is probably around 3-5 million, depending on the player. The Cubs likely have relief pitching as one of their top focuses this offseason, so money will, in all likelihood, be budgeted for a reasonable acquisition.
WHY????????????????????
Who in their right mind pays for closers? They’re a dime a dozen. Crappy starter? Turn him into a reliever! Need to pull up some starters to cover injuries? Stretch ’em out in the bullpen! This seems like such a silly idea only a Cubs fan could conjure it up.
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
If finding effective relievers was THAT easy ...
why did the Cubs have such trouble doing so last year?
part of it was due to injuries
I never thought Smiley Caridad was all that good, but he did get hurt. Angel Guzman was another factor.
Actually, a big part of it was that, two of the guys expected to help for the 2010 pen had huge regression years. John Gaub collapsed (performance wise) and was sent to Arizona. Blake Parker struggled with his control, stuff wasn’t as sharp, and was sent to AA. I guess Jeff Gray also fits into that picture as a guy who wasn’t as good as hoped for.
One other note – the arms that were slated in the upper levels weren’t all that good. Caridad was a former starter who got a bit of hype off of AFL work (where his velo jumped to 92/93 ish). In the pen, his stuff is okay, not great. Berg was a one-trick pony. Jeff Stevens was decidedly average. Brian Schlitter throws hard, but his stuff isn’t exceptional. They were borderline setup guys at best, likely middle relievers. And with middle relievers in general, their performance varies from year to year. With “young” (in terms of experience) middle relievers, that bounce is more dramatic.
Had the Cubs only needed middle relievers, then they might’ve been okay mixing and matching throughout the year. Once the need became a setup guy, these guys weren’t going to fill that need effectively enough, and then the Cubs turned to Cashner/Marshall.
Good breakdown.
But that doesn’t change the central point — it’s not as easy as Dan made it seem to find good relievers.
I think this weekend I'm going to look at teams from the 2010 and perhaps the 2009 and 2008 season.
And compare their opening, mid-season, and ending closers. I’d be willing to bet they are rarely the same guy. I’ll post what I find.
I’m going to make a jump here (albeit, and it might not be true)—that there’s an analogy here to fantasy baseball and why you don’t pay for relievers. Their seasons are too volatile to (1) know who’s going to succeed and (2) for most teams it’s a revolving door of playing injury-relief and what-have-you-done-for-me-lately performance issues that for managers’ hands to change closers frequently.
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Phew. I was beginning to feel like I was the only one
that didn’t LOVE this idea.
Look into my eyes!
People pay a TON for a good closer except Wood isn't a closer
he is a set up man.
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 14, 2010 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Right.
And the Cubs paid Bob Howry $3 million per for three years starting in 2006. A 1- or 2-year deal at $3 million for Kerry isn’t exactly breaking new ground.
And Howry had two decent years...
… and a bad one. I’d have no problem giving Wood a two-year deal with an option year, at around that dollar amount.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agreed. Right price, fills a big hole in my mind.
Sandberg for manager!
by mrcubsfan on Oct 14, 2010 4:02 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I can't think of a position that's not a part-time bench role that I would pay less for than a reliever.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
I'm positive I've never seen so many negatives in one sentence before...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Yes because having no name minimum salary relief corp
worked out so good this year.
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 14, 2010 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions
LOL!
If you think our bullpen was the first, second, or even third reason the Chicago Cubs sucked in 2010 then you’re being ridiculous. Other things from the 2010 season that were more important and/or need to be fixed before we turn our attention to RELIEF pitchers:
Lou Piniella
No bench whatsoever
Bottom 1/2 or 2/3 in R, HR, SB, BB, OPS
Second base
No ace
One starter over 200 IP
No power; 25 HR & 83 RBI was our “best”
We already have our late inning support; their names are Carlos Marmol and Sean Marshall. Also, in regard to this gem:
Yes because having no name minimum salary relief corp worked out so good this year.
How else do you suggest a professional organization develop relief talent? And talent as a whole? By purchasing 30+ something year old journeymen? This is exactly what’s wrong with this team—we look to purchasing rather than developing. We’re not the Yankees—nobody is. Even teams like the Phillies (Howard, Utley, Rollins, Hamels), Red Sox (Buchholz, Ellsbury, Lester, Papelbon, Pedoria, Youklis), or Rays (Crawford, Price, Longoria, Upton, Shields) built their team from within! Who do the Cubs have internally that can lead us? Castro, Colvin, Soto, Marmol, Marshall. That’s the future of our team. Not buying old players.
2010, 2011, and probably 2012 are all about developing young talent and looking to the future. The Kerry Wood nostalgia is just one example of this illogical continuation. If we continue to sign talent rather than develop it, we will forever be stuck in this vortex of buying our way to 80 wins with old, overpriced players.
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Oh I would put the crappy bullpen MUCH higher on the list
of reasons the Cubs lost. The inability of the Cubs BP to hold or maintain leads was staggering. It was certainly a bigger problem then the bench or lacking more than one starter who got more then 200 innings etc.
And heck yes you need to go out and sign at least one or two journeyman pitchers. Please tell me which of the teams now in the post season has an all rookie BP after their closer and set up guy? It is utterly insane to think 5 or 6 rookies in the bullpen is OK.
I am generally surprised by your utter contempt for virtually all relief pitchers. You go on and on about the lack of an “Ace” but then say closers are a dime a dozen and you should not have to pay for one. You might tell the Yankees that. Why have they been wasting all that money on Rivera all these years? Luckily the Cubs do have good albeit scary closer and a good set up guy, I can’t imagine how much worse the season would have been if we just threw some rookies in for Marmol & Marshall.
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 15, 2010 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions
ideally
you don’t pay much for your middle relief if you have solid late inning options. The volatility in performance for middle relievers is simply too much year to year that it’s not worth overspending.
The problem for the Cubs pen was twofold this year -
a) The setup issue
b) The lack of innings from the starters (which simply hasn’t been mentioned enough) .
An improvement in either area will make the entire pen look better, and allow you to mix and match with middle relief – as a good organization should do.
well not "too much" which Hendry has done
( though personally think the Eyre and Howry signings were fine) but you can’t have a bullpen made up primarily of rookies. There is a place between 3-4 million a year and league minimum.
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 15, 2010 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm going to FJM this post later today.
In short: You’re stubborn, and I’m going to do my damnest to attack the issue, not you. It is borderline intolerable to debate with you because it’s usually a cyclical argument that gets nowhere. Like I said, I’m going to try my best.
In short: No, I cannot stand the bullpen as a concept (just another reason I do not like Tony La Russa), paying for guys that get one out, micromanaging each AB based off some ridiculously small sample size of 7 or 12, etc.
In short: Can you name the reliever in 2010 with the highest WAR in all of MLB? Carlos Marmol. Fourth? Sean Marshall. STOP BUYING. WE HAVE SUCCESSES.
In short: Mariano Rivera has spent his entire career with the Yankees, I have no idea what you’re trying to say. If anything that’s proving my point—in house development.
In short: An equation: Starters Logging More Innings = Less Reliant on Bullpen.
But now, middle school students and teaching calls.
Until I FJM this argument later today!
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Oct 15, 2010 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well I am sorry if you hate the concept of the bullpen
but that does explain a lot. You can build from within but you also need to go shopping when you need someone. It is no different than any other position. YOu place so little value on relief pitchers you think you can just make a good or effective one out of what you have. I mean in theory you can find any player within the system, an Ace , a power hitting 1B etc but you don’t have them all which is why you go outside the system to fill in holes.
FYI my reference to Rivera was because you have repeatedly said that closers are eady to get and a dime a dozen. If so why would the Yankees have been paying Rivera so well for so many years or other teams also pay top dollar for a closer. Again you think one should break the bank for an “Ace” but just find any old pitcher and turn them into a closer of effective relief pitcher.
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 15, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't bring up the Yankees...
They spend $200 million on their roster. They can afford to overpay for their closer. He’s not what makes them great. He’s the cherry on top. When the Cubs put the resources and intelligence into building their roster, then you can discuss them in the same breath as the Yankees.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Oct 17, 2010 11:52 PM CDT up reply actions
DT knows how to frame an argument
by positioning Piniella as the first problem in an argument with Doggie. Well done.
I’d place him last, but whatever.
and where would place the bullpen?
Last or nearly last as Dan did?
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 15, 2010 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't often agree with DS ...
but the bullpen was a major problem in 2010, Dan. I’d rank it under Lou and the offense.
Why do we
as cubs fans keep constantly looking in the past? picking up Derosa? picking up kerry Wood? ok. thats sweet, but there are better, younger players to be had. why are we so in love with past players?
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
This isn't about the past.
This is about finding guys who could help the 2011 team. Wood, obviously, would be the right-handed setup guy the Cubs lacked for all of 2010. As for DeRosa (and I’m the one who suggested him in this thread) he conceivably could fill a utility role AND help the Cubs get rid of Kosuke.
Right.
If Wood had continued to pitch the way he had in Cleveland, I wouldn’t have suggested this ide.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Or the ideas of October.
I guess I left an “a” off that word.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I swear I didn't really want DeRosa.
It was sarcasm.
Couldn’t help but notice a little irony that you have a quote of a past player as your signature. :)
Look into my eyes!
Well, I think there is something to a player being successful in Chicago ..
… it is not, apparently, an easy place to play. Sort of like playing for the Yankees, though probably less extreme. Lots of guys have tanked on the Cubs while having success elsewhere. Knowing a guy can handle day baseball, intense scrutiny, etc, makes it a safer bet to bring someone to Chicago. Plus what’s wrong with having your favorites players on your favorite team? That said, I think, sadly, DeRo may be done. But Woody clearly has some life in that amazing right arm of his … GETITDONEJIMHENDRY.
"We gotta circle the bandwagons." - Devin Hester
by Jose's Eyelid on Oct 14, 2010 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Bring back Omar Infante
I know the feeling is that we’d just be bringing back a popular former Cub, but we need a guy who can play all over the infield and hit .320.
Admittedly, I’m a big Infante fan, but this has less to do with sentiment than it does with the fact that Infante has turned himself into an excellent utility infielder. The Cubs desperately need one of those.
Get it done, Jim.
comments
A – I hope this was meant as a joke.
B – If not, convince me that Infante can keep such a high BABIP as he ages.
C – When was Infante with the Cubs (since you say Bring back)? I don’t recall this, and thebaseballcube doesn’t list any brief stopover in our system for him.
Infante was acquired from Detroit for Jacque Jones.
And then was shipped to the Braves less than a month later (along with Will Ohman) for Jose Ascanio.
At least that deal does have one solid return: the Cubs got Tom Gorzelanny for Ascanio (and others).
The Infante deals were on 11/12/2007 and 12/4/2007.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Kevin Hart feels slighted that you did not mention him.
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 15, 2010 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I did add "others".
At this stage of his career, Kevin Hart is definitely an “other”.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
i'm not
calling any of you out for it, especially the Wood idea because that is a legit thought, however i think its more of the cubs fans psyche that wants “our boys” to get it done when “our boys” didnt get it done to begin with.
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
by epsilon on Oct 14, 2010 4:39 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
You make a valid point, and I am not trying to refute your argument, but ...
… I’ve always thought one reason the 85 Bears were so massively popular was that it was an almost completely home-grown team. Only Fuller, Buford, Moorehead and Frederick had played a regular season game in another uni. Also, our boys are our boys, whether they succeed or not.
"We gotta circle the bandwagons." - Devin Hester
by Jose's Eyelid on Oct 14, 2010 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions
well said
calls to bring Wood back is thinking with your heart and not your head.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 17, 2010 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Great post, Al!
Kerry, come back!!!!!!
Marshall, Wood, and Marmol would be a pretty good back end of the bullpen if you ask me.
Dan
I think it is all in how you want to approach next year. If you are of the mind that the Cubs are just a couple of key players away from contending, then, yes, let’s sign K-Wood and develop Cashner in Iowa as a starter. Pick up a couple of big bats and let’s take our shot. If we want to just dial it back, develop some talent and wait a few more years, then Wood is not the guy we should sign. Personally, I am conflicted by the whole thing. Having been a Cub fan for more than 4 decades, I would really like to see us in the post season every year, but maybe patience is called for here until we can unburden the team from some of the bloated contracts. Sigh…
by cubfaninplattsburgh on Oct 15, 2010 10:52 AM CDT reply actions
Infante
was a Cub for all of 22 days in 2007. Traded Jacque Jones to Detroit to get him, then traded him and Will Ohman to Atlanta for Jose Ascanio.
by cubfaninplattsburgh on Oct 15, 2010 10:56 AM CDT reply actions
cub fans
are often a sentimental bunch. i would love to have kerry back too. and rhyno. but i dont think either will happen. kerry will make a good yankee because he has the heart of a lion. a warrior to the end.and he will always be family.
if Wood is willing to accept a "hometown" discount
say a couple of years and less than $5M per year, it wouldn’t be worth a bad thing, but basically I* would say, no thanks. This team needs to rebuild, so getting a guy who is probably on the downhill side of an injury-marred career makes little sense. If the Cubs were close to contending and adding Wood filled a critical hole, sure, go for it. But adding Wood does not make this team a contender. Better to see what the young arms can do in that spot.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
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