OT: Which city is deserving a baseball team?
by ak123 on Oct 17, 2010 10:47 PM CDT
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I was reading the post below about 25 years for the Royals and how some teams just can't draw fans no matter how well they play (aka Rays). So I thought it would be interesting to discuss which cities/states could draw if a baseball team moved there.
In my opinion Raleigh, NC or Oklahoma City could be two viable cities with large enough markets to draw for a team.
It sometimes blows my mind that California has 5 teams!
So not really a Cubs topic but with the playoffs happening and a managerial search probably not being decisive for a few weeks I figured we could all have an interesting take on this.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Pittsburgh could use a baseball team
Rimshot! In all seriousness, Las Vegas or Portland for the AL West could be interesting places.
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by DTJchris on Oct 17, 2010 11:23 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Vegas should not get a MLB team
we cannot support the local minor league team
we do not have a major stadium, and I refuse to vote for public funds to be used to build one
said stadium needs to be centrally located, no place for that
said stadium needs retractable roof, more $$$ that I will not vote for
too much transient population, those who live here come from everywhere else with loyalties to other teams (or their parents have pushed them down to them), few will root for the team, I know I would never change allegiance.
current mayor only wants NBA thugball
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by VegasCubFan on Oct 19, 2010 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Too small..
… 37th largest TV market, and too close to Houston and Dallas.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You should count Austin in the San Antonio market. Put the stadium north of SA.
The two cities combined would be able to support a team.
North of San Antonio?
Where? New Braunfels? Wimberley?
The I-35 corridor from SA to Austin is a long, empty road dotted with small towns. Austin’s a couple hours north on a good day.
I went to school and Austin and it never took me more than 1.5 hours to drive it.
by Texas Wahoo on Oct 18, 2010 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
That's the distance between Chicago and Milwaukee.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Right, it's about 10 miles closer than that, but I'm guessing with less traffic.
Whether or not people drive down from Austin every day to watch the game, there will be a lot of fans watching at home in Austin. The SA baseball team would immediately become the local team for Austin too.
by Texas Wahoo on Oct 18, 2010 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
I just don't think..
…. you can make a two-team market like that in baseball. Neither one is big enough on its own, and they’re just far enough apart that you couldn’t have a conveniently located stadium. Building it in between the cities would be a really bad idea.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Austin is owned and ruled by Longhorns as well
as much as I would love to see it happen, and think it could work, especially with the amount of transplants in Central TX, i dont see how it could unfortunately.
Plus they would prefer a NFL team before a MLB team in the area.
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"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
I think a baseball team is much more likely.
The Cowboys have a ton of fans in central Texas, whereas most people don’t have a baseball team (except the Longhorns and the RoundRock Express).
Univ Texas would never let it happen.
before Round Rock Express happened, they wanted to bring a AAA team to Austin, and univ Texas blocked it. Will not happen.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Do you have a link about that? I would be curious.
I’m guessing that if UT blocked it, the minor league team was going to play at their field. I’m not sure the University could stop them from building a stadium in Austin. UT has actually played playoff games in Round Rock while their stadium was being renovated. I certainly don’t see how they would block San Antonio from building a stadium and getting a baseball team.
they were looking at william cannon east of IH35
before the millions of apartments went up along there. i did a search, cannot find one, but it was also over 10 years ago (predated the Express). IIRC it was going to be affiliated with the Diamondbacks.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
My error then
I was driving a big, ungainly truck loaded with audio and video gear. It was quite the pig, and it seemed like an eternity that day.
ahh ok, that changes everything lol
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
couple hours north?
have you been here before? since the construction by the Blanco River is completed, you can fly to and from San Antonio on IH35 in about 90 or so minutes.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Proximity
San Antonio may not be a viable market for many reasons, but proximity to Dallas, which is a good four hour drive away, isn’t one of them.
"You know, you should be a lot more careful crossing the street like that, otherwise you could die - if that bothers you."
Sacramento or Omaha?
I could see Sacramento being a good MLB town, the AAA Rivercats are consistently ranked #1 in attendance. Also, 1 out of every 9 people who live in the US live in CA so it’s really not that surprising for them to have 5 teams. Omaha would be cool because of the tradition there with the CWS.
by BobTheAutomator on Oct 18, 2010 12:07 AM CDT reply actions
Omaha
Laugh all you want, but I agree that Omaha would definitely draw a ton of fans. It might not be a great “TV Market” but Omaha is a decent sized city and they are very dedicated to their sports teams {Hukers obviously but Creighton’s basketball team is top 10 in the country in attendance almost every year and the new UFL team there is getting a ton of fans too}. It’s close enough to Iowa so If you build it, they will come.
No way on Omaha.
Way too small. It’s the 76th-largest TV market. The metro area is about half the size of Milwaukee.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
They tried Omaha.
Remember the Royals were split between KC and Omaha?
It didn’t work. The Omaha games rarely sold. Of course, that may also be because the Royals stunk.
No, that wasn't the Royals.
It was the Kansas City-Omaha Kings, an NBA team. That didn’t work and they’re now in Sacramento.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
the premise is terrible
hey fans come out to the stadium tonight, but not tomorrow night as that home game is in KC, but then next week we have 2 home games here and 2 more in KC…too confusing, the casual fan wont attend
Omaha probably is too small,
But why does a new baseball have to be larger than Milwaukee? The Brewers do just fine. If a new city were comparable in size to Milwaukee, I’m sure they’d be fine, too.
Moving more teams to NY or CA, in my opinion, is a bad idea. Not every team has to be in a big TV market to be successful. They won’t be the Yankees, but they can survive.
Florida sucks because its fans are notoriously fair weather in every sport save, perhaps, college football.
...and because of transplants who retain loyalty to their hometown teams...
It's 106 miles to Chicago...
The Brewers do OK, but only because they have a 40-year history.
Plop a new team down in a smaller market than Milwaukee, in a recession? Not so much.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
drawing
10,000 fans 4 times a week to a basketball team that traditionally does well is not the same as trying to draw 10,000 fans 4 times a week to an unknown team…way to small – the town has something like 600,000 people
Yeah I don't see
it as a big draw either.
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One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
Too Close to Bay Area
Sacramento is too close to Oakland and San Francisco to have an MLB team.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
San Jose
would be a good choice, but Oakland’s owner is already trying to move the team there. Most people don’t realize that San Jose is the largest city in the Bay area, with about 1 million people living there.
Heard Giants Were Trying to Block Move
The Giants claim that San Jose is in their territory.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Giants' territory
It’s true, San Jose in in the Giant’s territory. Of course, that has only been true since 1992, when, the A’s gave the Giants the territory to help the weaker (at the time) Giants franchise stay in the San Francisco Bay Area (publicly funded stadium proposal that subsequently failed) instead of moving to the Tampa Bay area.
Sacramento only gets a shot at a team if the A's are denied access to San Jose
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 18, 2010 7:55 AM CDT up reply actions
The only way this works if
the Kings leave town, which is a possibility. Sacto is too small for 2 Major League franchises. The entertainment dollar would be stretched in that market. Top 20 TV market, yes — but it is close to the Bay Area’s many teams.
To be fair, that could have been said about San Diego 35 years ago. 2 teams is probably all the SD market can support….when they’re winning, of course…..(Insert snark here)
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Oct 18, 2010 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
The big problem with Sacto
is that it’s a one industry town, and that industry (state government) doesn’t buy season tickets, luxury suites or take out big ad campaigns.
I don’t think they could support a major league team even without the Kings, although maybe they could make it work with the Pirates payroll. But I don’t think the Kings would really have much of an impact on a baseball team either way.
by Josh Timmers on Oct 18, 2010 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
True, San Diego could not support their third pro franchise
the (NBA) Rockets
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 20, 2010 7:57 AM CDT up reply actions
However
The Rockets were drawing the league average for teams outside of Boston, Los Angeles and New York. The team, owned by a local icon who had severe financial problems sold the Rockets to the first buyer who handed him cash. He never sought a local buyer. At that time the San Diego Sports Arena was only about 5 years old. A state-off-the-art arena would never be abandoned today (see Glendale)
That was a horrible move by an individual who was still revered in this community up until the time of his recent passing. He got off scot-free.
Enter one of the worst pro franchises of all time with one of the worst owners of all time — the Clippers (formerly the Buffalo Braves.) Donald Sterling wanted to re-use athletic tape. His girfriend was his assistant GM.
The late 70s/80s NBA was in the doldrums. NY, Boston, LA — the only major markets where the NBA thrived. (The Bulls were horrible) If you remember — the classic LA/Boston series was shown on tape delay on CBS. NOT in prime time. (Except on weekends, and in LA and Boston) Nobody seems to remember this. The NBA, with Magic/Bird was at a low point. MJ came along, and elevated the NBA to where it is now.
Therefore, with a team that would lose 60 games every year, why bother? And, at that time the operator of the SD Sports Arena let it go to s**t. (It’s actually in better shape 25 years later)
I had just moved here and attended many games. 2500 per game. Awful, awful basketball. Sterling later admitted his only reason to purchase the team was to move it to LA.
However, AAA Hockey and AA Hockey has always drawn well here. For the most part, those teams were winners. The AHL Charlotte franchise nearly relocated here last season, but the numbers didn’t pan out for team ownership. The Arena wanted way too much rent. It’s probably just as well, the recession has hurt many minor league franchises.
Bottom line, without a state-of-the-art building the NBA nor NHL can work in SD
I do give the NHL the edge, though. But I’m biased.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Oct 20, 2010 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Vancouver
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Oct 18, 2010 2:57 AM CDT reply actions
Don't think MLB has any designs on another Canadian team
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Oct 18, 2010 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I am sure they don't
but I think it could work. The Canadian dollar is strong, Vancouver was a good baseball market when we had AAA and with the amount of BC kids making it to the majors these days it is obvious that there are baseball fans and players in that area. Plus there are over 2 million people in the metropolitan area and there is only one major league team here. The TV market would include all of BC and Alberta as well as there is no other Canadian team around. Toronto being something like 3,000 miles away. There are another half million people on Vancouver Island which has a strong tradition of youth baseball as well. The lack of a stadium would be the only hindrance although I know they could play in BC Place once the new roof is finished. It would only be temporary though.
Bottom line is I would just like to see it happen cause I am from there and I love baseball.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Oct 18, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
If Vancouver's such a good AAA market...
… why didn’t Portland consider moving there?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Because Vancouver already has
a Single A team that does pretty well and has an owner with very deep pockets? How would I know? But if that is the only argument you can make against Vancouver being a good AAA market it’s a pretty weak one.
Check this article out. Vancouver right now is a great A ball market. Just like it was when it was AAA.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Oct 18, 2010 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions
By the way the average attendance
in that league the NorthWest League was 2,983 per game. The Canadians were above 4,000 a game.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Oct 18, 2010 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, because the Pads now own the team.
Eventually, after Tucson — the team will be in Escondido. I believe the city will actually get the park built.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Oct 21, 2010 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions
And the lack of a stadium...
is a HUGE issue considering all the money spent on the Olympics and refurbishing BC Place (including building a temporary stadium to house the Lions and Whitecaps in the interim). I can’t think that building a baseball stadium would be very popular idea with Vancouver residents at the moment, especially with the Whitecaps Waterfront Stadium still on the drawing board.
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by Chris Dobbertean on Oct 18, 2010 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh yeah I agree
it’s more of a pipe dream of mine than anything. Getting anything built in Vancouver is nearly impossible and there is literally no where that I can think of anywhere near downtown that would be a good location for a stadium.
But if Vancouver was in the US with it’s population and TV markets including Alberta (because I think fans of baseball in Western Canada would rather support a Western team than the Jays) I think it would be top of people’s lists. Over 5 million people in the province to watch them on TV plus another couple million in Western Canada is a big deal. Not to mention the lack of major league competition. I think there is room for MLB alongside the NHL and MLS in that city.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Oct 18, 2010 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions
But if Vancouver was in the US with it’s population and TV markets including Alberta (because I think fans of baseball in Western Canada would rather support a Western team than the Jays) I think it would be top of people’s lists.
But it’s not, and that’s why it won’t get a team. I can’t see MLB putting a second team in Canada.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
So the reason
you would be against it is simply because it isn’t the US? Natural rivals, TV markets, closer to other AL West teams than Texas, same time zone, strong baseball tradition. I mean I am not saying it will happen. I don’t think it will any time soon but take out the Canada part and it makes more sense than almost every other market being mentioned.
Is there a reason you don’t think MLB will come to Canada other than because it is Canada? Or I suppose my question is why do you think MLB won’t come up here? Cause they screwed up the Montreal thing?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Oct 18, 2010 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Personally, I'm not against it.
I like Vancouver; it’s a nice city to visit and I know they’d support a team.
I just don’t think MLB is ready to come back to Canada for various reasons.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I am not as up on these things as you are
would you mind telling me the reasons? Is there somewhere else they want to go first? Are they just not interested in Canada after Montreal?
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Oct 19, 2010 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I think they're just not interested in Canada after Montreal.
Also, despite the fact that Vancouver is a big city and big market by Canadian standards, any TV ratings from Canada are not included in US TV ratings, thus MLB cannot sell TV rights based on them. They’d wind up losing $ if a US-based team moved to Vancouver.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
This is why the NHL will cling to
bad US markets because more teams in Canada will not be good for future US TV rights.
Of course, the Canadians (the residents, not the team) could care less since hockey is ‘their game.’ Healthy US teams mean a very healthy NHL.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Oct 21, 2010 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions
That's still somewhat of a mistake.
So what if Phoenix is a (fairly) large TV market? People there don’t care about hockey.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It's been a losing team
almost every year since moving from Winnipeg. In a transient market, like San Diego, Atlanta, Houston — loyalties are mixed. 10+ years of losing can never really build a fan base
PHX is the #12 TV market — just behind Detroit, and will pass that market eventually. It’s not “fairly” large, it’s a major market.
We can see what a winning NFL team can do in PHX, after drawing terribly after years and years of losing.
The old IHL drew very well, and the market was a logical choice for either relocation or expansion. US Airways Arena was not built for hockey.
That’s a great building in Glendale. It’s unfortunate that the earlier ideas for an arena in Scottsdale (Los Arcos) fell through, for that was a better location, and closer to where the fans come from.
If the NHL needs to leave a market, pull out of Columbus — a team should never have been placed there. That market is under 1 million. Failure there is inevitable, and you can see it coming this year. That’s a perfect AHL city.
The Florida markets stink, and Atlanta’s second NHL chance is going….south.
Phoenix can be a good hockey market.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Oct 22, 2010 2:52 AM CDT up reply actions
The NFL does well...
… because the NFL does well everywhere. Hockey’s a tough sell in many US cities, and particularly in Phoenix, which has no real history with it, doesn’t have cold weather where you’d want to spend a lot of the winter indoors, and not that many expat Canadians.
You’re right, the arena is nice. Actually, the Los Arcos location wouldn’t have been that great — the location isn’t near freeway exits and would have created traffic nightmares.
The Coyotes did well last year and still didn’t draw. I realize that’s largely because of the ownership uncertainty. Now that the ownership situation is (apparently) resolved, let’s see if that makes any difference.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Scottsdale is where the rich folk live, but
isn’t Glendale is in the western suburbs where the population is growing?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 22, 2010 7:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes.
But Glendale’s pretty far from Scottsdale — and even farther from Mesa. It’s far from the center of population in the Phoenix area. It would be like building a Blackhawks arena in Naperville.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Not an issue if the population center is moving to the west
that’s my point
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 23, 2010 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
The population is growing in the Glendale area, yes.
But it is also growing to the east and northeast, in Scottsdale & Mesa. The arena should have been toward the center of population. It is not.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Land costs were a lot less in the west
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 24, 2010 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Sure.
But that still doesn’t make it a good idea.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Obviously not for you
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 24, 2010 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Not for any Coyotes fan who lives, say, in Mesa.
That’s a long ride during rush hour, when you’d have to go for most of the hockey games.
It’s different for the Cardinals, who play only once a week, generally on Sundays when you don’t have to fight rush hour traffic to get to the stadium.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
was their arena there before the Winnipeg Jets
relocated to AZ?
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Been to both for games many times...
There is far more passion and interest in hockey in Columbus than Phoenix, and a lot less competition for the pro sports $$$. Ten years of mostly sucking will depress any market.
How soon we forget the many nights there were 7000-9000 people showing up at the United Center for Blackhawks games. I went to one where the crowd looked a lot like the crowd in Phoenix last night. Entire sections empty, others with a just few people. An eerie, almost funereal silence in the building; you could hear the skates on the ice and the coaches yelling.
Hockey’s economic model, which they killed a season to create, is already broken. They got their hard cap, but by setting the salary “floor” at (cap – $16 million) they have franchises required to spend $43 million on payroll that can’t possibly cover their expenses.
It’s not just Phoenix, or Columbus. Economic ruin could happen in any of a dozen or more markets.
by bison on Oct 22, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
There is a good hockey market here
all they have to do is put a winning team that makes the playoffs more than once a decade. It was hard to get good tickets for hockey games last year when the team was sure to make the playoffs. I never had to buy tickets ahead of time before last year.
Just like the football Cardinals, they needed a new stadium and a reason for people to go see them. Look what happened in Chicago before Wirtz died, the 3rd largest TV market in the nation and drawing flies for many years.
Put out a winning product and people will support them. Period.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
You have a good team and a great arena, right now...
Where was everyone last night?
I have seen bigger crowds at HoHoKam.
only if they have an open air stadium
if they want a dome, no way
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Vancouver could work...
as a city for an MLB team.
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"--The Brain
Could for sure
it would maybe take some luck and a rich owner to foot the bill for a while but long term I think so. People might not realize how rich the baseball history is in these parts. From the Vancouver Capilanos to the Mounties and the Canadians. Plus the UBC T Birds baseball program is strong.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Oct 18, 2010 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions
I would move back to Vancouver
if they got an MLB team. But it better be in the AL so I don’t have any conflicts with the Cubs. A Cubs vs Vancouver World Series though? Still 100% rooting for the Cubbies in that scenario.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Oct 19, 2010 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
story from earlier this year
Living in Connecticut, this story got some air time around here—don’t know if it got play elsewhere. Peter Gammons suggested the Rays were looking to move to New Jersey or Southern Connecticut. A radio report I heard at the same time cited a sports economist’s study saying that it would be financially viable to move a team to CT.
That just seems ridiculous to me, though. The baseball fans around here are either passionate Yankees fans or passionate Red Sox fans.
Connecticut, probably not.
New Jersey does make some sense. The NY metro area supported three teams for decades, and its population — over 20 million — could certainly do so now.
The problem is, any team moving there would have to pay hundreds of millions in territorial infringement fees to the Yankees and Mets.
And then there’s the problem of building a stadium.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Northern New Jersey
By far, that’s the best relocation option. I don’t believe that MLB teams can hold metro areas hostage any more, when it comes to building new stadiums. Cities and metro areas can say to the MLB club, “Where are you going to move?” The number of good relocation options out there are minimal. About every metro area that can support an MLB team already has one. There are some that have MLB teams that don’t support them very well.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Long Island
What about Long Island as a location? I don’t know much about the counties of Nassau or Suffolk but the Islanders make it work there. They compete with the Devils and Rangers. Why couldn’t a baseball team compete with the Yankees and Mets?
by FloridaCubsFan on Oct 18, 2010 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Sternberg (owner of Rays) is from New York...
…assumption in Tampa has always been that if he doesn’t get a deal in Tampa, he will try to move to NY market.
It's 106 miles to Chicago...
What about Puerto Rico
I know it may be a little radical, but the MLB has certainly emphasized getting baseball to become a global game.
The island has 4 million people and the potential TV market could span across all of Latin America. NTM, the fan base there is certainly going to be supportive of a baseball team with its rich baseball history.
only problem is travel
would you really want your team flying from California to Puerto Rico then take off for Chicago or New York?
Way too far from anywhere.
It’s a two-hour flight from Miami — farther from anywhere else.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The big problem is money
Puerto Rico just isn’t rich enough to support a major league team. The size is there, but the per capita income is so low that ticket prices and advertising revenues just couldn’t be high enough to maintain payroll.
by Josh Timmers on Oct 18, 2010 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions
that as well
hard to field a competative team when you have to charge $5 on average…need a really big stadium…maybe they can move the Big House (which Iowa took ownership of this weekend) down there and maybe they could be competative…
by hansman1982 on Oct 18, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
San Jose
As for CA having 5 teams, do you realize how big CA is? LA County alone has a larger population than 42 states, including NC and almost three times the population of OK.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
+1
and if you were to compare California to the eastern seaboard – you have 5 teams plus Pittsburg all in about the same roungh area
What the Tampa owners need to do
is find the money to build the stadium on their own and build it in a decent area. Would be tougher to draw fans to the Cubs games if they played out in Aurora…
None....too many already
contract 4-6 and go from there……
Unless MLB adapts a league revenue share & CBA like the NFL.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Oct 18, 2010 8:37 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
what about mexico city, or somethong
by bilbosbuttons on Oct 18, 2010 8:45 AM CDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
something* lol
Something south of the border?
by bilbosbuttons on Oct 18, 2010 8:46 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I hear Juárez, Mexico is a hopping place
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 18, 2010 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Portland, OR
If MLB were to move one team, I think they should look to population growth, disposable income, and development of rivalries. Seattle is out there on a cold, northwest island. A team in Portland could add a rivalry and facilitate logical road trips for visiting teams.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
I lived out in Portland for a few years around 1999
I think the people there would support their team. Despite Rasheed Wallace, that town loved the Trailblazers during that time. The city is well organized and was growing steadily until the recent financial downturn.
And the summer weather is perfect for baseball. And spring/fall rain is so gentle, it probably wouldn’t result in cancellation.
Agree on Portland
We’d just need a stadium. Portland could stand to have another major league sports franchise,and it would give Trail Blazer fans someone to root for in the off-season. Big enough TV market, good rivalry, and it adds another team to the AL West.
"Hey! If the moon were made of ribs, wouldja eat it? I know I would!"
Markets in top 30 with no MLB team
19 – Orlando (We’ve already seen how well teams draw in Florida)
20 – Sacramento (Too close to Bay area?)
22 – Portland, OR (most people here are Mariner’s fans right now, but would probably enjoy a rivalry)
24 – Charlotte, NC
25 – Indianapolis (I’ve never heard this option discussed, anyone know why?)
27 – Raleigh-Durham
29 – Nashville
30 – Hartford
As Al (I think) pointed out, Oklahoma City, San Antonio, & Las Vegas all have smaller media markets than Milwaukee (smallest currently in MLB), which doesn’t seem to make them real appealing choices at face value. With that many top 30 markets not having a team, you’d think at least one of them would make a suitable destination. I’ll go with Portland as my choice — AL West could use the team & I think Oregonians would likely rally behind their own team.
Indianapolis
As someone that lives in Indianapolis, I can tell you that the city (and really the whole state of Indiana) is split between Cubs & Reds fans. In a vacuum Indy might be a decent place for a team, but I think most people already have their loyalties set in stone.
Indy's got a fairly small MLB stadium...
Victory Field is 12,500 with 2,000 lawn seats. They’ve got some room to expand, probably to around the 20-22k area. They’ve already got the Colts selling out Lucas Oil and the Pacers generally being average on the attendance front. Can Indy support 3 pro-level teams? I’m not sure about that…
Portland has said "NO" to a minor league team's new stadium
So, off to Tucson, then hopefully — Escondido CA, the Beavers will go.
I don’t think there will be any further discussion about a MLB franchise for Portland. The market has chosen MLS.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Oct 18, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Wouldn't it be fairer to say the owner has chosen MLS?
That being said, I’m curious if you have any insight into why he chose MLS over MiLB. Was it as simple as major over minor, regardless of sport? Did some marketing study tell him people would rather watch soccer than baseball? What about civic leaders – too many other pressing matters to care/interfere with private owner?
I realize I can go search out some Portland newspaper websites and read the stories – and I probably will. Just wondered if you had any thoughts on the whys behind the decision.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Your point
Doesn’t make sense. PORTLAND didn’t bail on the Beavers, the owner did. Trust me, people in the Portland area were fighting HARD to find another place to put a stadium for the Beavers. If you had a MLB team with a motivated owner, Portland would be a perfect fit.
"Hey! If the moon were made of ribs, wouldja eat it? I know I would!"
You replying to me or SDSJM?
I really didn’t have a point – I was asking about the owner’s thought process in choosing MLS over MiLB.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Replies
Orlando: Absolutely not. Florida is a better market for football than it is for baseball. The state has also been hit hard by the recession.
Sacramento: The California market is already oversaturated with baseball.
Portland: It’s not happening.
Charlotte: Good city and it probably could work. The economy hasn’t helped, but it hasn’t helped in a lot of places. It’s also basically a central hub for much of NASCAR with the nearby track in Concord and many of the team garages within a reasonable driving distance. The Panthers have worked. The Hornets were basically a casualty of ownership. Charlotte is the best option on the list.
Indianapolis: The Reds and the Cubs won’t allow much of a fanbase to develop here. Indy would be fine apart from that.
Raleigh-Durham: Why go to Raleigh when you can have Charlotte?
Nashville: It’s a decent market and doable.
Hartford: With the Red Sox and Yankees so close, this move is practically impossible.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Free BLou
Of the ones you list...
… the only one that’s both doable and a decent size TV market is Nashville. I could see that… IF they could get a stadium built.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Not sure on Nashville, Al...
a big reason the Predators have been in trouble is lack of corporate sales, which are spread very thin between the hockey club and the Titans.
I think the only way that works as a market is if hockey ends up leaving.
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by Chris Dobbertean on Oct 18, 2010 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed Chris....
As much as I would love having a team here, it’s just not realistic for Nashville to have three major league franchises. Perhaps some years down the road it could happen, but I just don’t see it anytime soon. Football (SEC and NFL) has always been, and will always be, king in this part of the country, and everything else can get in line behind it. The Predators have a hardcore base of fans, but beyond that group…of which I am one…there is little interest, especially until football season is over. Chris nailed it in that the only possible way baseball could happen here is if the Predators left town. But then, you’ve got to have a stadium…which opens another whole can of worms. So really the short answer is….Baseball isn’t gonna happen in Nashville.
Agreed
Greer Stadium looks a little better now than it did back in 2007, but it’s still the worst of the five minor league baseball stadiums I’ve visited in Tennessee. (Memphis, Jackson, Nashville, Chattanooga, Kodak)
I know the problems Nashville has had in getting a AAA stadium built downtown. I’m glad that Memphis had AutoZone Park before the NBA’s Grizzlies came. I’m going to be in Nashville this weekend to see Vandy v. South Carolina and Titans v. Eagles.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Well, at least one of those two...
…should be a good game. Too bad the Preds aren’t home this weekend. Safe travels man.
I don't know why we need another baseball team in the first place.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Probably not meant to be another team...
Just one to replace the Rays.
by cubsluver22 on Oct 18, 2010 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Not "replace" the Rays...
… but maybe move the Rays somewhere where they’d have better fan support.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Fan support is there in Tampa...
…but the Rays aren’t in Tampa. Instead they’re across the bay in St. Pete, in a bad neighborhood with no restaurants/bars, in a bad park that is not accessible via public transit, in a characterless dome that is an abomination.
Build the Rays are quality stadium (preferably retractable roof) near the water/restaurants in Tampa, and Tampa would get GREAT fan support….
by Chadnudj on Oct 18, 2010 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you...
…how does no one criticize the Reds, who also won their division, have a young, exciting ballclub, and yet draw just as poorly? Believe the total attendance figures were just as bad.
Oh, and they have a brand new stadium and a storied history, which Rays do not.
The Rays have been good exactly once in 12 years (2008) and compete in the AL East, arguably the best division in baseball. How anyone can think that a fanbase can be created in just over a decade when the stadium is not located near the population center of the region is beyond me.
Stop listening to John Kruk and Mitch Williams and try to understand the market demographics. The television ratings are high, just need to move the stadium to where more people are closer to get to the weeknight games.
It's 106 miles to Chicago...
No kidding on the Reds
as an Ohio Cubs fan I’ve enjoyed the ability to buy $5 seats and move down to the lower deck without issues at Reds games.
I’ll propose Columbus, OH as a potential landing spot for the Rays or Fish. Columbus just built a beautiful brand new AAA park (Huntington Park, seats 10,100), I’m willing to bet a major league team could draw double that consistently, at least until September, when Columbus’s other professional sports team starts (Ohio State Football). I don’t know what remodeling could be done to expand seating, but I think a baseball team would do well there since it doesn’t compete with OSU. The Blue Jackets of the NHL drew very well before the losing burned the fans out. The team drew well when the Jackets made the playoffs two years ago, so the fans respond to a winner.
Competing with the Reds and Indians for fans is a concern, similarly to Indy, but I think Columbus would embrace having a major league team of their own. Columbus is the #34 tv market in the country, and is the largest city in Ohio. It is also the healthiest city in Ohio economically.
by neifiisgreat on Oct 18, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Good Idea but...
as an Ohio Cubs fan too, I thought about the Columbus market too. The problem is it faces the same problem as moving a team to Indianapolis would have. Too many of the fans are already Reds/Indians fans and moving a team there would erode the fanbase of already small market teams, or fail to develop one for itself.
But, Clippers games are a blast and they sell very well. I think Columbus is perfect for a AAA team but not MLB.
The Rays TV numbers have exploded...
the fanbase is getting there. If they ever get the stadium addressed, watch out.
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by Chris Dobbertean on Oct 18, 2010 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I think that's all BS.
If you can’t draw fans when you’re in the hunt for the best record in baseball come September crunch time, you don’t have fans. Blanket statement alert: I’ve never thought highly of any Florida fans. Seem like the definition of fairweather fans.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Location, location, location
Same could have been said about San Francisco fans; even when the team was good, attendance was mediocre to poor. However, since moving from Candlestick Point (a bad neighborhood with no bars/restaurants, not accessible by public transportation, awful stadium design, plus bad weather), the Giants have been among the leaders in attendance.
plain and simple
you can have the greatest good ever known to man – lets say you make a fantastic steak that is the epitome of steaks, cows eat them they are so good…but if you decide to build your restaraunt in the middle of a vegan neighborhood you arent going to get anyone to come – because it is inconvenient.
How many fans do you think the Cubs would have drawn this year had they played in Aurora?
by hansman1982 on Oct 18, 2010 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
not many, but that's because the Cubs really sucked balls this year.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 18, 2010 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions
exactly
now take that over the next 10 years and then throw in a couple good years, after you change the name of the team, get rid of WGN’s network of game broadcasts and just have a couple highways servicing it…
Why does the name have to change? The WGN broadcasts are going to stop anyway within the next ten years.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 18, 2010 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions
in my example
it would be to get rid of the brand – i.e The Devil Rays had no brand 10 years ago – hopefully the Cubs will have the CBN or CBS or CBPN or the CWSBN
See above, Cincinnati Reds..
add San Diego Padres for good measure as comparative examples.
San Diego = 2,131,744 drawn in 2010
Television market size = 28th
TV ratings = 11th (up 15%)
Years as franchise = 41
New stadium (<10 years) = YES
Staduim ranking (ESPN) = 16/30
Cincinnati = 2,060,551 drawn in 2010
Television market size = 33rd
TV Ratings = 4th (up 49%)
Years as franchise = 141
New stadium (<10 years) = YES
Staduim ranking (ESPN) = 18/30
Tampa Bay/St. Pete/Sarasota = 1,864,999 drawn in 2010
Television market size = 14th
TV ratings = 7th (up 70%)
Years as franchise = 13
New stadium (<10 years) = NO
Stadium ranking (ESPN) = 29/30
What does the above tell us?
1) Lots more TV households in Tampa. Fanbase is there as evidenced by massive increase in TV ratings this year, better than SD & Cincy
2) San Diego/Cincinnati should draw better in a good year since they have had longer to develop fan base. Why no criticism after new stadium built and attendance not much better than St. Pete?
3) A crappy stadium means people would rather stay home and watch on TV.
With due respect, the location and the quality of the stadium experience have as much to do with the attendance for the Rays as the product on the field.
If you think 3M people come to Wrigley every year for the outstanding baseball, you might want to reconsider. It’s due at least partly to the stadium experience. After all, no franchise can guarantee a winning team year after year, but they can guarantee a good stadium experience.
If you want to contract a team, consider Pittsburgh and KC. They don’t appear to be making any effort whatsoever to be competitive and increase their fan base with a good product.
It's 106 miles to Chicago...
KC has made great strides.
They have the best farm system, a sparkling and fantastic new stadium (COME VISIT, PEOPLE!), and outside of dipshit Ned Yost, a good foundation.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
OK, I'll concede your points on KC...particularly Ned Yost...
…but the Rays have also made great strides…in a tougher division, with less history. I think that we also need to see how the Marlins draw in an actual baseball stadium located in downtown Miami, not the north suburbs of Ft. Lauderdale.
People are talking here about contracting the Rays and Marlins…and basing it on what I think are incorrect facts about the team and the market in Florida for baseball.
It's 106 miles to Chicago...
Look at the Bucs
Tampa Bay can’t sell tickets for Buccaneers games either, despite having a better product on the field this season.
http://www.tampabay.com/sports/football/bucs/tampa-bay-buccaneers-news-and-notes/1128866
The city has too many transplants and retirees moving there to support local sports teams.
Hmmm...guess an unemployment rate around 20% has nothing to do with that?
It's 106 miles to Chicago...
Contraction
Might be a better than expansion. Elimination of one or both of the Florida teams seems somewhat inevitable.
by neifiisgreat on Oct 18, 2010 11:42 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
So a side discussion:
Which team(s) would be the best to contract?
(in no particular order)
- Pittsburgh? (Tough because of their storied franchise (then again, look at the Sonics)
- Kansas City? (see above)
- Florida? (abominable organization in my view with terrible fans, but they have won two
championships in this decade)
- Oakland? (Great history)
- Toronto? (Should we end the Canadian experiment?)
- Tampa? (already discussed)
- Others?
Florida...
or Miami as they will soon be known isn’t going anywhere because of the new stadium…as much as that franchise pisses me off.
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by Chris Dobbertean on Oct 18, 2010 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions
exactly.
Florida= new stadium broke ground
KC – Just finished Huge remodel
Pitt- Beautiful park, just no team.
Oakland- If they do anything, they will just build a new park or, as suggested San jose
Tampa and Toronto. Both could be possibilities for relocation.Everyone else in MLB is either firmly implanted or has a new ( or fairly new) park and committed for a while.
"Baseball is ninety percent mental. The other half is physical." -Yogi Berra
Toronto has a couple of World Series wins
in their history. That team has been bad for a long time and is in a crappy stadium. Baseball can and will work in Canada. I am not so sure that a team that has been there for 33 years is an “experiment” anymore. The NFL wants to be in Toronto and Canada why wouldn’t MLB want to be there too? Over 5 million people in the Metro area and over 8 million in that Southern Ontario region makes it one of the biggest markets in baseball. Plus as things stand the Blue Jays reach a TV audience of around 30 million people since they are the only team in Canada and close to every game is on a national sports channel.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Oct 18, 2010 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Toronto isn't going anywhere.
Oakland, I could see. Tampa, if they don’t get their stadium situation worked out.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
But, as mentioned earlier
those ‘30 million’ don’t really count. Good for CBC, TSN, and Rogers Sports, but worthless to MLB US Television contracts. And, with the Jays losing, there aren’t many people in the Rogers Centre, if you have noticed. In Toronto, baseball passes the time until the Maple Leafs are ready to go. If the Jays don’t win, they are ignored by “30 million.”
Football is way different than baseball due to the limited number of games. The NFL may very well place a team in Europe someday.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Oct 22, 2010 2:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Not too much too add here
But as the discussion has gone, “deserving” a team doesn’t factor into where a franchise goes, the TV market is the major criteria.
To agree with dtpollitt, MLB doesn’t really need another team.
Here’s a blast from the past, pre-recession
Mayor Oscar Goodman says he wants to build a stadium. Of course, the TV market is small…
FYI, the players union would not agree to the loss of team, the loss of jobs. All that ‘retraction’ talk of a few years ago vanished fairly quickly.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Oct 18, 2010 11:52 AM CDT reply actions
Las Vegas makes the most sense
The city alone has over 1 million people and I’m willing to bet that with the right ownership group and the right stadium (i.e. domed so that you dont have to play night games in 104 degree heat in summer), they could make a go of it.
The problem is the next city, Portland never will support a major league baseball franchise, and a place like Charlotte is in pretty bad shape financially after the Wachovia collapse. Another team in NY is always a possibility.
the steinbrenners
will never allow another NY team…
by hansman1982 on Oct 18, 2010 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought I read somewhere
That Brooklyn was a possibility for a reloaction spot for the Rays….
How big is the NY metro area? 15 million? Can easily support 3 teams if you ask me without putting a huge dent in the Yankees purse.
There's no way a team moves to Brooklyn.
Too close to Citi Field. New Jersey makes more sense logistically.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
plus
a Brooklyn team that isnt the Dodgers would be a crime against humanity. More realistically if they were to move it MLB would try to get them to stay on the eastern seaboard or at least East of the Mississippi – Raleigh, Memphis, New Jersey, Connecticut, New Orleans, Montreal – so they can keep the AL East intact
I'm not sure they would consider it a crime in Brooklyn
But the Mets probably would, as the Cyclones, the Mets A team, do pretty well there.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Oct 18, 2010 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Not if they expanded by 2
Then have NFL style divisions of 4 with an AL and NL South….
25 games against in division each team = 75 games
home and home 3 game series against the rest of the league = 72 games
3 game interleague against each team in division nfl style = 12 games
3 gams series against inter leage “natural rival”
The Mets and Yankees may not like it, but they could get concessions like the O’s did when the Nationals came to DC.
sorry Backtocali
you are crazy talking about Las Vegas getting a team. Will not happen
The 2010 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp ruled!!!!
Wrong question to ask....
what we should be asking is… “”What baseball team is deserving of a city?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 18, 2010 1:09 PM CDT reply actions
funny
both are teams that made the playoffs this year – I would more so say the Pirates, Royals, Astros, Marlins at least
Buffalo or Salt Lake City?
I agree with the idea of contraction, but I know that’ll never happen…so what about Buffalo or Salt Lake City?
Buffalo argument…
Pros: 1) they’ve had 3 different teams in baseball history, making them a nostalgic pick; 2) they’d make a natural rivalry with Toronto; 3) in New York but far enough away to not ruffle Yankee feathers
Cons: 1) #51 in TV market, below OKC, Portland, and others already discussed
Salt Lake City argument…
Pros: 1) they’d make a natural rivalry with Colorado; 2) #32 in TV market, just below KC and above Cincinnati & Milwaukee; 3) Relatively dry summers
Cons: 1) #32 in TV market…honestly, that’s the best Con I can come up with for Salt Lake City.
Thoughts?
Buffalo??
They cant even support the Bills, they are playing 2 or 3 games in toronto in=f i’m not mistaken.
"Baseball is ninety percent mental. The other half is physical." -Yogi Berra
That's hitting close to home for me...
as I’m a Niagara Falls native. The Bills are playing 8 games over 5 seasons in Toronto, in a move to get more fans from Southern Ontario (who already make up anywhere from 15 to 25 percent of attendees at any given home game in Orchard Park).
Pilot Field, now Coca-Cola Field, was built as the first Camden Yards-type park as a home for the Bisons, but with the goal of landing an expansion team. If a club had been awarded in the 90s, they would’ve just slapped on an upper deck.
However, to say the economy of Western New York is depressed would be extremely charitable. There’s no way the area can support three major league-level franchises. None.
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by Chris Dobbertean on Oct 18, 2010 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I believe New York is more able to support a third team than any other city is with one.
We’re comparing the NY-NJ market to places like Raleigh, Portland, and SLC… both the cities themselves and the metros are over 10x bigger, plus, New York is just gaga over baseball. What US city cares about baseball more than New York? Boston, maybe? Move the Rays or Marlins to NY and give ‘em a new name, and within five years they’ll have a top-5 payroll every year.
I hate the Yankees as much as anyone
But I am reading alot of argument for how NY can support a 3rd team because of thier fan support and population. Maybe thats why ESPN and other networks put them on in prime time? Face it, they draw and people watch them.
A third team would make it up there but it would have to be in Jersey, and near the Meadowlands. I think the Charlotte area would work great because there is nothing north of Atlanta until you get to DC. Alot of minor league in those areas though.
"Baseball is ninety percent mental. The other half is physical." -Yogi Berra
So how different now is NYC...
from a fan support perspective and business opportunity than it was in the mid-50’s?
NYC had 3 teams for over a half-century: The Giants at the Polo Grounds in Upper Manhattan, the Dodgers at Ebbets Field in Brooklyn and the Yankees in the Bronx.
Big difference now is the Yankee TV market and the YES Network. How would MLB handle this? Probably not even consider it IMO.
I really believe that in order for MLB to work better going forward, there MUST be a TV revenue sharing component similar to the NFL. Otherwise, we’ll continue to talk about this TV market being only 38th biggest or that TV market being only the 45th biggest, etc.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Oct 19, 2010 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions
The BIG difference is
that the business side has changed over the years and Yanks and Mets have rights in those areas. Is it right? IDK, but it is what it is. I have no doubt that the area could, and would support another team, but where to put it???
Also the big issue with revenue sharing, which I think MLB needs as well, is TV contracts. NFL has contracts with major networks only, where MLB has small contracts as well, WGN,YES,CSN, etc etc etc. How do you handle those situations? If the Cubs get a “Cubs network” like YES, should we have to share $ with the brewers and cards? There is alot to be worked out, and a long path to make it work if they were going to go that way.
"Baseball is ninety percent mental. The other half is physical." -Yogi Berra
You raise a great point...
Had the last expansion been done correctly (Denver and Tampa), Phoenix and Miami would be open for moves (like the A’s). Since all the genuinely viable options (and a few not-so-viable ones) have been taken…
Somewhere in NC is probably the only very good option; the Meadowlands might also be viable.
I don’t think that Las Vegas would be any good as it suffers from “San Diego syndrome”. There is too much desert around it and very few small towns. And I don’t think many tourists are going there for the baseball…
Portland is probably too close to Seattle and would split that market. (Ditto for Vancouver.) Nashville is too close to Atlanta. Omaha is too close to KC.
San Antonio/Austin may or may not have enough “corporate dollars”. Also, while Tom Hicks was on record as supporting a team in SA, he no longer owns the Rangers. Also, Drayton McLane has not made the same statement and his team is closer.
New Orleans hasn’t really supported minor league baseball, and the SuperDome isn’t an ideal baseball yard.
Buffalo had great AAA attendance for a while, but I don’t think they are willing and/or able to build a dome (which apparently was demanded by MLB during negotiations for the 1990s expansions). I don’t think the Carrier Dome can accommodate baseball. Would the opening of Target Field change that?
I think the A’s will end up in San Jose. If Tampa decides to relocate, Orlando might be a possibility.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
The Carrier Dome?
That’s in Syracuse. Syracuse is not a major league market.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It's the closest dome to Buffalo.
Assuming that MLB still would require an upstate NY team to play in a dome, it’s the only alternative to building one in Buffalo — which Buffalo could not seem to do in the 1990s. I agree that Syracuse itself is too small for a team.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Also
it’s a building designed primarily for football (baseball was never close to a consideration, since SU dropped varsity baseball eight years before it opened), and, despite the sponsor’s name, doesn’t have air conditioning.
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by Chris Dobbertean on Oct 19, 2010 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Only the New Orleans minor league team doesn't even play in the Super Dome
They play at Zephyr Field. New Orleans had a minor league team (original Pelicans) for well over six decades before the brief return of minor league baseball in the 1970’s.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Free BLou
The SEC Baseball Tournament
has been played at the Superdome in the past. Next time, you watch a football game from there, look at how far the crowd is from the sidelines. Baseball was a consideration when it was built.
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by Chris Dobbertean on Oct 19, 2010 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I know they have played baseball exhibition games there.
But it still seems like they’d have tens of thousands of bad seats for baseball.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agreed
They could get away with it for college ball, since the crowds aren’t anywhere near as large.
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by Chris Dobbertean on Oct 19, 2010 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Deserve is a tricky word...
I think Munich, Germany deserves a NL Baseball team, because I live in Munich and that way I can see the Cubs live.
Would it be economically viable?
No.
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
ahh... but think of the concessions revenue!
the beer… the pretzels… the beer… the sausages… the beer… the brats… the beer… the wiener schnitzel… the beer…
Did I mention the beer?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
You forgot to mention Bier: Weißbier, Helles, Pils, Dunkeles, Schwarzbier, Starkbier, Bock Bier, Doppel Bock...
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
...Kölsch, Altbier...
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
Paulaner...
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
Paulaner is a Munich brewery as are Augustiner-Bräu, Forschungsbrauerei, Giesinger Bräu, Unionsbräu, Löwenbräu, Spaten-Franziskaner-Bräu, etc.
Weißbier, Helles, Pils, Dunkeles, Schwarzbier, Starkbier, Bock Bier, Broyhan, Doppel Bock, Alt, Kölsch, etc. are types of beer.
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
Frankfurt would be a better choice
More centrally located, big ex-pat American population. Of course, then there’s Berlin, which might have the Hockey in LA thing going for them—even if 98% of the population hates the sport, that 2% is still a lot of people.
Of course, it’s going to come down to which city agrees to build a stadium.
And yes, I’m joking
by Josh Timmers on Oct 19, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions
If we are talking about European Cities,
then locations in Holland, Italy and (just maybe) England are probably where Baseball would have the greatest (though still minuscule) chance of supporting a professional Baseball team, IMHO. Within Germany, you could very well be right about Frankfurt, which regularly had large crowds (c. 30k and more attending) at the Frankfurt Galaxy games, before the NFL Europe was closed down.
There is a surprising amount of amateur Baseball played in Europe, but in comparison to Football (Soccer), Handball, Basketball, Football (American), Ice Hockey, etc., the amount of exposure which Baseball gets is tiny.
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
Charlotte
Too the North you have Winston-Salem/ Greensboro less than 100 miles away, too the South you have Columbia less than 100 miles away, West is Asheville 125 miles. There is a ton of minor league ball nearby. Plus probably the most important factoir for me is that it wouldn’t be in the NE
If the world didn't suck we would all fall off.
With a better stadium and dedicated, local ownership...
I’d take Montreal as a expansion/relocation option over anything else in North America (or Puerto Rico.)
No.
When Montreal first got a team, it was the largest city in Canada and the center of many business HQ. When all the Parti Quebecois stuff went down in the 1970’s, most of the corporate dollars and many English speaking fans left, moved to Toronto or Vancouver or the USA. Metro Montreal now has a population of about 3.6 million — about the size of Seattle — but the problem is, the French-speaking laws discourage new immigrants from speaking English and English-speaking businesses from moving there.
There just isn’t a large enough population of baseball fans left there, or corporate dollars, to support major league baseball in Montreal.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Calgary?
They couldn’t even support a Triple-A team there.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
What about New Orleans?
They support an NFL team very well down there. Would the threat of more hurricanes turn them away?
More so...
… the fact that New Orleans has lost population in the last five years and doesn’t have a stadium (the Superdome isn’t really suitable for baseball) are bigger factors.
The metro population of New Orleans (2009 estimate) was about 1.1 million. That’s about the size of Birmingham, Alabama or Hartford. Way too small.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
There are almost NO corporate dollars in NOLA
Most, if not all of the major corporations in NOLA have bailed. Only Shell remains. This is why eventually — when the Saints fall from competition — will start to fail, That team will leave that market within 10 years. When Joe Fan from Baton Rouge does not renew his season tickets, that’s the beginning of the end.
The hurricane SAVED the franchise, in the short term. It’s a nice feel-good story that will not end very well in the future. NOLA is a tourist town.
The NBA team will leave first. A very good team is not drawing, and the decision to relocate there was absurdly stupid.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Oct 20, 2010 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions
The Saints will only leave
because the Superdome is no longer fit to hold a team and some other city will build them a nice new stadium that NOLA won’t. But as I said below, the economics of the NFL are just completely different. They make a profit before they even sell one ticket, so all those new stadiums and such are just to make even more money.
The Hornets, on the other hand, are doomed. New Orleans was never a good pro sports market, and now they are really just too small and too poor to support an NBA team. I bet we’ll see them in Seattle by the end of the decade.
by Josh Timmers on Oct 22, 2010 3:29 AM CDT up reply actions
St. Louis might be able to support a NBA team again.
True, it’s a smaller TV market than Seattle. But they do have a suitable facility there.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Anyone can support an NFL team
Green Bay does it. Buffalo does it. Jacksonville sort of does it.
The economics of the NFL are completely different than the economics of every other sport because of the massive TV revenues that are split evenly among all the teams. It’s why LA doesn’t have a team. If an NFL team could sell their own TV rights in LA like the Dodgers and Angels do, there would be a team there tomorrow. They’d play in an empty parking lot if they had to.
by Josh Timmers on Oct 22, 2010 3:25 AM CDT up reply actions
You'd be surprised how big baseball is up there
I have many friends who live in teh area who played ball. It’s more popular there than you would believe.
I guess.
But they didn’t support a Triple-A team. Plus, its climate is like Denver, only colder.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That is true
From a fans standpoint I think they could support a team but weather wise probably not. They would have to play in a closed dome.
Average temps in March
Chicago – 47F
Calgary – 41F
Weather that much of an issue???
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Oct 20, 2010 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes...
… because frequent snowstorms in Calgary in April and May could disrupt a schedule. The average has little to do with it.
I was changing planes once in Calgary, to go to Vancouver. It was the first week of June. They were digging out from a 14-inch snowstorm two weeks earlier.
It’d never work.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well I have lived in Calgary
the weather really isn’t as much of an issue as you seem to think. There are plenty of other issues with putting a team there but the weather isn’t really one of them. Calgary gets more sunshine hours in April than Chicago and has fewer days with rain. More days with snow but on average it’s 6 days. And a day of snow counts once .2 cm of snow fall occurs. So several of those days feature a very light brief snow fall. They get the occasional snow storm later in the year than some other places but it’s rare and snow fall in April and May is usually melted and gone the next day.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Oct 20, 2010 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Nevertheless
Baseball conditions in Denver are pretty bad in April. They’d be worse in Calgary.
And, it’s way, WAY too small a city for major league baseball. Metro population as of 2010 was 1,071,515. That’s approximately the size of Rochester, New York.
No one’s suggesting putting a major league team in Rochester.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I agree I am not
sure why I even brought it up. The city wouldn’t work anyway so the weather is a moot point.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct chief curmudgeon and chief hunk.
by Section 312 on Oct 21, 2010 1:19 AM CDT up reply actions
It snowed in July when I was there
I was there for Stampede. They had flurries in the morning! It was unbelievable because 36 hours before they had 85 degree weather.
Makes sense
I’ve thought about it and if MLB doesn’t want to put a team in Vegas, Nashville/Memphis might be the best option.
You can't split a team like that between two cities.
Nashville would be the one, IF they decide to go that route.
I still think New Jersey is the best option for relocation.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't think Jersey would sell
You’re either a Mets/Yankees or even Phillies fan out there. I don’t believe anyone from the area will invest in a new team. That’s why a place like Nashville, Oklahoma City, Indianapolis could work.
The NYC metro area has 20 million people.
Let’s say 10% of those would support a new team (either because they’re disgusted with their team or can’t afford tickets), two million people. And it could be more.
That’s almost twice the metro population of the cities you mention.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Statistically with the amount of people in NYC you make a valid point
But I truly don’t believe New Yorker’s would go to a new team. That would be like adding a third team in Chicago and Cubs fans being disgusted with the last 2 years switching teams. It just won’t happen.
Well, I know you live there.
But it seems to me there’s a portion of the population who feels disenfranchised from both the Yankees and Mets and would go see a new team.
Metro NYC is twice the size of Chicago. Chicago couldn’t support a third team — there just aren’t enough people. New York has enough people.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well from being there I just feel I have a better grip
People are typically Mets or Yankees fans. If they aren’t a fan of either then they just don’t care about baseball.
If a third team did come in then it would take years to get a fan-base. Like a new younger generation liking the team that had no affiliation with Mets/Yankees.
One way they'd get a ton of fans right away...
… is to price the product lower than the Mets do.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's true
I was thikning about this more. For a new NY team to get fans they have to make a splash immediately. They would have to sign a huge player to be the face of the franchise. A David Wright or Derek Jeter role model type player.
Evan Longoria would like to have a word with you.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Memphis is too close to St. Louis,
and Nashville is too close to Atlanta. I’m sure those teams would put up a fuss if someone tried to take their turf.
How about Des Moines? (j/k)
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Nashville isn't really THAT close to Atlanta.
It’s almost as far from Atlanta as St. Louis is from Chicago.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Nashville is a huge Braves market though...
…with some factions of Cubs, Reds, and Cardinal fans thrown in the mix. The Braves also have a presence here, with their caravan coming thru town during the winter, and occasional advertising for tickets and weekend packages. Pretty sure Braves ownership wouldn’t look favorably on a team relocation to Nashville.
thats a problem IMHO
a team in Atlanta should have no say about who plays in Nashville. These territories are getting out of control, and needs to stop
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
It is a problem
The braves have (radio) games broadcast in several markets in Alabama, Tenn, N & S Carolina and Mississippi. They feel they own those markets and they are hours away.
"Baseball is ninety percent mental. The other half is physical." -Yogi Berra
with that attitude, the Cubs own America and beyond with WGN TV
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Lake County, Illinois deserves one
Over 700,000 people, third highest disposable income of any county in the nation. It’s an area that’s basically been disenfranchised by its proximity to the Cubs. Cub ticket prices are obscene, Wrigley a nightmare to get to from up north. You could have an extremely interesting baseball “hot zone” along the shores of Lake Michigan with the Brewers, Cubs, Sox, and Lake County. Even Kevin Costner thinks so.
Salt Lake City, Utah
and put them in the AL East
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
With as much love as the Pens and the Steelers get here...
..I’ll bet if Pittsburgh got a baseball team people would watch.
United we stand and united we'll fall......down on our knees the day we win it all!
by Bricks and Ivy on Oct 21, 2010 10:51 AM CDT reply actions
Very true, since they already have a nice ballpark to play in.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
these 5 cities need one now
Maza, ND population 5
Ruso, ND population 6
Tenney, MN population 6 (smallest statuory city in the US)
Kaskaskia, IL population 9
Booger Hollow, Ar population 6
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
We've forgotten Glendive, Montana
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Oct 22, 2010 3:06 AM CDT reply actions
Good People surrounded by Badlands
is their motto.
by Josh Timmers on Oct 22, 2010 3:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Contract?
Time for baseball to take a hard look at a few franchises. I know, some people said the Twins wouldn’t have lasted a few years ago. I don’t think so, they’ve consistenty drawn fans and won.
Maybe Florida should only have one team? Too bad it’ll be the wrong one in the Marlins that would survive. Kansas City and Pittsburgh haven’t tried to win for 20 years. Do they deserve to ride the coattails of the rest of MLB?
Too bad
KC and Pitt have remodeled and new stadiums respectively. They wont be going anywhere for awhile. The Rays on the other hand are trying to shorten the lease, which will make them a possible candidate for relocation. I dont see contraction ever happening.
"Baseball is ninety percent mental. The other half is physical." -Yogi Berra
when asking this question
does it have to be a MLB team, or can this be about a minor league team, or a high school team, or little league even
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
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