Cubs Proposed Spring Training Complex Photo Renderings
by Al Yellon on Oct 4, 2010 2:01 PM CDT
in Chicago Cubs News
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Next month, voters in Mesa will be asked to approve proposition 420, which will provide funding for the proposed new Cubs spring training complex. The image above is a rendering of an aerial view of the new complex, which will include the ballpark, team facilities and a large retail/restaurant area. Practice fields aren't shown in this rendering but would be adjacent to the stadium (in the area at the left of the rendering that isn't detailed).
The new proposal, according to Keep the Cubs, a group dedicated (obviously) to keeping the Cubs in Mesa, would not cost the taxpayers of Mesa anything:
It will allow work to begin on a new spring training venue for the team and clears the way for the team to begin development of a privately-funded, baseball-themed entertainment district known as "Wrigleyville West."
And best of all, it can all happen without raising sales taxes or property taxes and without spending any Mesa general fund tax dollars!
In fact, the project is expected to save the City money on stadium operations as the team is expected to assume about $2 million in yearly maintenance and operations expenses at the new facility. And it guarantees the Cubs will remain at least another 30 years for spring training in the city.
On the ballot is a measure required by the Mesa city charter, which says that any time the city spends more than $1.5 million on a sports facility, it has to be approved by the voters.
Funding for the proposal will come from the sale of some land that Mesa owns in Pinal County and the increasing of hotel bed taxes (on the ballot as a separate vote) to match what are already being charged in -- the land is 11,000 acres of non revenue producing land that will be sold over the next 20 years to finance the new facility.
If the measure is approved, the city of Mesa will build and own the stadium. The costs for the stadium are capped at $84 million and the city would provide infrastructure costs at $15 million, so the maximum expenditure would be $99 million, and possibly less. In return, the Cubs will build the "Wrigleyville West" complex that you see in these photos; the Cubs are going to call it their "Western Baseball Headquarters," expanding office space and player facilities and in general spending more time in Arizona; this would help in player development by having a better place to train young players than the team currently has at Fitch Park. The Cubs would be signing a 30-year lease (the longest spring lease by any team is now 20 years), with four five-year options to extend the lease.
I've made no secret here of my preference for the Cubs to keep spring training in Mesa and the reasons for doing so. This proposal appears to be a win-win for everyone, and I'm posting about it now for two reasons:
- In Arizona, early voting starts on Thursday, so people can mail ballots in, and
- On Saturday, the city of Mesa is having a ceremony honoring Ron Santo for his long service to the Cubs organization and a rally to support the proposition; details here. If you're in the Phoenix area, stop on by HoHoKam Park at 10 a.m. Saturday.
After the jump, more renderings of the proposed complex.
Renderings courtesy Keep The Cubs; click on any image to open a larger version in a new browser window
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Looks pretty sweet
If all goes smoothly from here on out, when would we be looking at being in there?
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." ~Alvin Dark
by DamonBerryhillsMitt on Oct 4, 2010 2:12 PM CDT reply actions
Alrighty
Guess I can wait that long. Think I’ll definitely target a return trip to Arizona to coincide with Year One of Wrigleyville West.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." ~Alvin Dark
by DamonBerryhillsMitt on Oct 4, 2010 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Now I know why it's called Proposition "420"... ;-)
And best of all, it can all happen without raising sales taxes or property taxes and without spending any Mesa general fund tax dollars!
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
LOL
Yeah, that is kind of an unfortunate number to have chosen.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Smoke on the water?
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
You have to admit, you shouldn't forget it, dude!
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
I don't get "420"
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
It is, for some reason...
… a code number for marijuana. If anyone can explain the origin of this reference, please do.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
No clear answer on the Internetz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/420_%28cannabis_culture%29
http://parentingteens.about.com/cs/marijuana/a/420meaning.htm
http://www.concept420.com/what-is-420.htm
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
Now I understand why it won't cost the tax payer.... ;-)
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
Shemp was my favorite!
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Oct 5, 2010 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Wow...
granted its in the early stages and thats only a drawing.
That looks beautiful.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
Looks great.
But if the proposal doesn’t pass what are the chances of staying in Mesa?
That, I don't know.
But since the proposal doesn’t include any taxes on the people voting for it, I’m pretty sure it’s going to pass.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Ok yeah that makes sense
Thanks for everything you’ve done this season (and past) Al! I interned at Wrigley this summer so I didn’t have much time to post but I loved reading it when I got back from the games and the past month I’ve been studying in Italy and I’ve been addicted to the site! Thanks!
Thanks for the compliments!
Glad you were able to keep up while in Italy.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
BCB is a godsend for Cubs fans in Europe
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
It is across the street from a neighborhood
so you will get a NIMBY vote and probably something is going to have to be done with parking ordinances/towing especially since there are 3 big condos/apartment buildings in that area.
I'm feeling fiery, fiery, I tells ya! Who cares if I lose 10 in a row?
by Reynolds rapper on Oct 5, 2010 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Looks really nice.
What are the pools of water for? Is that the water park I remember reading about?
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie" -- Tony Montana
No.
The waterpark you have heard about is, well, a waterpark — with waterslides, etc.
Those pools are likely just decorative. They have similar waterways at Camelback Ranch.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Camelback Ranch
is the Sox/Dodgers facility, right? You’ve been there, Al? Is that kind of what we’re going to be modeling “Wrigleyville West” after? I’ve heard nice things about that place. Would you be happy if that’s how our’s turned out?
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." ~Alvin Dark
by DamonBerryhillsMitt on Oct 4, 2010 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes.
That’s a great complex with tons of practice fields, good sightlines, and access to players.
Two problems with it: tickets are too expensive and parking lot access is awful. If they can fix those two issues at Wrigleyville West, they’ll have a place that’s just about perfect.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Great
Once we get past all this approval stuff, this should be exciting and a lot of fun to keep an eye down south as all this progresses.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." ~Alvin Dark
by DamonBerryhillsMitt on Oct 4, 2010 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions
The water ways at Camelback
are used to recycle water that are put on the fields. I assume this will be the same eco-friendly concept here. Very good stewards of water!
I like the drawings. hope this passes.
Sandberg for manager!
Where are the adjacent Wrigleyville West Retirement Condos?
I’m there!
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
I don't see a waterslide into Left field
That is a deal breaker for me.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
It would be nice if Mesa got some better hotels and nightlife
Staying in Scottsdale and traveling to Mesa is kind of a pain.
That's the whole point of the Wrigleyville West complex.
It would have things like that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It will be interesting to see what the Cubs include
I could see six or so bars and a couple of nice restaurants being added though I wonder how much those places would be used when the Cubs aren’t there.
Any idea
if Chicago based establishments (e.g., Harry Carry’s, etc.) would look to expand their brands westward or would this simply be new business?
Shut up Joe Morgan.
should have had those posted at Wrigley for the DMB shows...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
It's a tax paid when getting a hotel room.
That way, the locals aren’t the ones paying the tax.
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie" -- Tony Montana
Has it been determined...
…where the additional practice (minor league) fields will be located in the complex??
Good catch
No practice fields. This just underlines what I wrote below…this drawing is Fantasyland. This is not even remotely close to what a new Cubs Spring Training Complex would look like, if the voters approve.
For one thing, the depiction of Waveland looks nothing like what the developers have proposed, even given a scaled down project. And there is no assurance that will ever get built. Also left out is Riverview Shopping Complex which is immediately adjacent to the east , or the water treatment plant, which is also right next to the property.
Why would the Riverview complex even be part of these drawings?
The practice fields would be immediately adjacent to the west.
Perhaps if you spoke to people actually involved in this project as I have, you wouldn’t be here posting wrong information.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
As Budweiser says...
…..Here We GO!
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Oct 4, 2010 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions
From the story above:
Practice fields aren’t shown in this rendering but would be adjacent to the stadium (in the area at the left of the rendering that isn’t detailed).
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
Hehe no worries
I’m usually the one that misses stuff like that.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
The only problem is
it really isn’t workable if you look at the actual site. There is the land that Waveland has first dibs on, there is the WTP and immediately north of that is the Salt River bed.
So my real question is...
Are we going to have to listen to you rail and whine about how bad this whole thing is for the next 2 to 3 years?
Yeah yeah yeah… relax… I’m getting off your lawn already…
Ramirez, Fukudome, Soriano and Zambrano. It's the 2010 Murderers' Row of baseball failure. - Paraphrasing Gene Wojciechowski
As I have said many times before
I am not opposed to a new ST complex for the Cubs, with a few caveats.
The City and the Cubs need to be forthright about how much it will cost, where the money will come from and what the real benefit to the city is. Not to mention what the complex will really look like.
So far, they have struck out on all of these. They came up with a bogus plan to pay for it with a Cactus League ticket surcharge. They hired a consulting firm to come up with a bogus report on how much the city will benifit. Now, they have given us bogus fantasy drawings with a price tag that is not realistic.
I think most people in Mesa would like to see the Cubs stay and are willing to support a new training complex. But, Mesa is charting a course that will lead to a defeat on November 2nd, if they don’t put away the smoke and mirrors. People are not stupid and there is now an opposition group who has a lot of experience in elections iike this.
If the City and the Cubs do as you suggest...
The City and the Cubs need to be forthright about how much it will cost, where the money will come from and what the real benefit to the city is. Not to mention what the complex will really look like.
…then what will be the primary arguments put forth by the opposition group?
From what you’ve described, sounds like the opposition group has lots to shoot at now, but if the City and the Cubs remove the low-hanging targets so to speak, then what’s left?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
They've already done this.
You’re 100% wrong. Go ahead and vote no, but you’re going to be outnumbered.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Have you been in a coma?
Here’s some developments that you obviously slept through…
1. Waveland lacks financing to implement their project. Mesa has refused to improve the terms and/or extend deadlines in Waveland’s contract. The Cubs are not interested in teaming-up with Waveland. Instead the team has stated their intention to wait-out Waveland’s claim on the property which is set to expire in July ’11. If Waveland survives it will be vastly scaled down.
2. The total cost of the stadium, infrastructure, parking, etc. is capped at $99M.
3. The Cactus League surcharge idea was abandoned months ago. Project financing will be derived from a combination of sources including the enterprise fund, a hike in hotel taxes from 3-to-5-percent (which synchs-up with surrounding communities), and a gradual liquidation of unused farm land in Pinal County. No cash will be taken from the general fund.
There’s a wealth of economic impact studies that validate the importance of the Cactus League and the Cubs. In rebuttal you offer your singular biased opinion. I totally agree there are smoke and mirrors in play here. We just disagree on who’s using them.
I'm wet nurse to a (5th)-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
by Eisman57 on Oct 4, 2010 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
Thanks for giving
us the updated info.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
Haven't been in a coma
1. Mesa has already extended the deadline for Waveyard once. There is every reason to think they would’ve extended it again, if the Cubs hadn’t decided they want to be at Riverview. Important fact: Waveryard has been approved by the voters. Wrigleyville West has not.
2. The $99M cap is somebody’s invention. The original MOU, which has no legal weight, and has expired in any event, mentions $84 for the stadium ONLY. There is no legally enforceable document that says Cubs will pay anything over $15M for the infrastructure, so this is all heresay at this point, and not legally binding.
3. Yes, the Cactus League surcharge was abandoned. The point being that this new financing plan is being brought to you by many of the same folks who brought us the ill-conceived and falsely promoted surcharge plan. They tried to pull the wool over our eyes before, why would anyone assume they aren’t doing it again?
There are TWO economic impact studies. One has had more holes shot thru it than a piece of swiss cheese. The 2nd one might be a little closer to reality, but it still has some mighty odd assumptions behind it. Neither comes close to reflecting any sort of reality of how the numbers really crunch.
One thing that does come through loud and clear in the studies though, is that the vast majority of the people that come to see the Cubs in Spring Training do not stay in Mesa. Especially with the new location, there is no reason to expect this will change. So, how is it fair to tax people staying at hotels in Mesa, when almost none of them are here for Spring Training?
And I can’t wait for the City of Mesa to provide more details about the land in Pinal County and why it isn’t needed anymore. Shifting money from an investment in future water supplies to one for a ballpark for a team that already has one is something I would love to hear more about. So far, the information has been pretty general and not very enlightening.
Dude, let's be honest..
You keep demanding more and more details. When details are presented you summarily dismiss them as "invented, hearsay, falsely promoted, unrealistic, unfair, etc, etc, etc. Of course you offer absolutely nothing in rebuttal but your “learned opinion.” Sorry, but stating your opinion with conviction doesn’t make it true.
Try Googling “Circulus in Probando…”
“azjazzman always tells the truth, I know this because he told me so.”
I'm wet nurse to a (5th)-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
Waveyard is much smaller
If this goes forward, Waveyard would be a much much smaller concept. Their incentive deal would be void.
by westerncubbie on Oct 4, 2010 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions
I get that
The problem is, the election is on November 2nd. Nothing will be settled re: Waveyard before then, which makes this another example of asking the voters to approve something that is very indefinite.
The question is
Do we want to keep the Cubs or not. We have a capped amount we will spend. We have a mechanism of where to get the money. We have a concept of what it will look like. We all know Waveyard is dead. Would it be nice to have more concrete? Sure. Do we have enough details. Yes.
by westerncubbie on Oct 4, 2010 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions
The fan revolt gives
Mesa more leverage here. They could have bolted when the surcharge deal fell apart but the fanbase wouldn’t allow it.
I'm feeling fiery, fiery, I tells ya! Who cares if I lose 10 in a row?
by Reynolds rapper on Oct 5, 2010 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions
I'l tell you something
as probably (as far as I know) as one of the very few on here that will actually get a chance to vote on this – Mesa and “Keep The Cubs” better refrain from this kind of smoke and mirrors nonsense, or it will get shot down in a hurry.
These are not “photo renderings”, whatever that is, nor are they project drawings. There are no project drawings, because there is no project to draw. These are merely somebody’s pipe dream concept of what a new Cubs spring training might look like. I can assure you, what it would look like is absolutely nothing like this. A circular “driveway” in front of the ballpark? I think not.
There is nothing wrong with conceptuals as long as you make it clear what they are. I did not attend the news conference held by Mesa officials, but if they presented this artwork as anything but coneceptual art, they will be called on it.
The most interesting development this past week was the announcement that a second organized group has come out in opposition, and both groups are business / tax oriented and will keep Mesa honest on spurious claims that “it won’t cost the taxpayers anything”, which, of course is ridiculous. You would think Scott Smith and Mesa officials would have learned their lesson, given how silly their earlier claim that the Tourism and Sports Authority could raise the entire amount made them look.
Speaking of the entire amount, the opposition group is already holding Mesa’s feet to the fire on the issue of total cost. The $84M does not include infrastructure and financing cost, which in the case of Camelback Ranch added another $79M to the project, and which Glendale is struggling to figure out how to pay.
I wish the Cubs would move to FL
Just so you could no longer be the resident expert.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
by StevenABQ on Oct 4, 2010 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 11 recs
teehee ^-^
That’s kinda mean…..hehehe
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
"My favorite food is Macaroni and Cheese, from the blue box." Geovany Soto
No it's not.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
Sorry that my Wildcats
had to hang a loss on your Hawkeyes two weeks ago. Better stick to the Big Ten.
sniff sniff...
…is that a TROLL I smell??
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie" -- Tony Montana
by calicubfan on Oct 4, 2010 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh you guys!
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
"My favorite food is Macaroni and Cheese, from the blue box." Geovany Soto
Meh, you were lucky
to hang on to get the win.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
Hang on?
You must have been watching a different game than me.
The one I saw was won with a clutch 9 play, 72 yard drive with the clock winding down and the score tied. This was an example of taking control of a game and winning it if there ever was one.
Like I said you were lucky
to hang on. You must have extra wide doorways in your house.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
Like I said
you don’t now what you are talking about.
No luck involved in a 9 play 72 yard drive with the clock running out. Iowa could’ve taken the lead by merely kicking an extra point, and they could’ve won by merely playing some defense in that last drive.
Too bad they were outclassed by a better team.
Nobody here knows
what they are talking about! It’s the Internets!
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Oct 4, 2010 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow you are really full of yourself.
It was one game. We’ll see at the end of the season who has the better record.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
Not sure what any of that had to do with this discussion anyway
sort of like bringing up when the Cubs swept the dbacks this year….
by LT on Oct 4, 2010 7:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I seem to recall..
Arizona scored on a kick return, an interception return (that went through the Iowa receivers hands), and a blocked punt (recovered on Iowa’s 9-yard line. Iowa clearly beat themsleves in that game. Of course you’re entitled to your revisionist opinions. I just wish you’d take them elsewhere.
I'm wet nurse to a (5th)-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
by Eisman57 on Oct 4, 2010 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
"We beat ourselves"
The mantra of losers.
Last time I looked, it takes two teams to make a football game. Pick sixes, kickoff returns for TDs and blocked kicks are all part of the game, and will frequently make the difference in close games.
Of course you are entitled to your opinions, they just don’t happen to have much value.
He never said "we". He said "Iowa".
If you had looked at his profile you would have seen he’s not a Hawkeye fan. But that would have taken effort on your part.
I’m sure I speak for many here who feel the same way about your opinions. I’m not really sure why Al puts up with you.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
I'm not sure
why you would think I would care what you think.
I did not use “we” with the intent to connect Elsman57 to Iowa, which would be obvious to anyone with minimal reading skills.
“We” was used to identify the mantra of any team of losers that rationalize their losing by saying “we beat ourselves”.
Bull.
Better men than you have tried to insult me. Must make you feel like a real man.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
And more interesting women than you
have engaged me in repartee. In fact, I would be hard pressed to imagine someone less interesting than you.
You are the one that feels a need to slam me every time I make a post. It was not me that initiated this nonsense.
Must make you feel like a real woman…better cut back on the male hormones.
But here you are.
Must not be that hard pressed. I do believe you replied to a comment I made to someone else. You could just stop replying but we all know that won’t happen.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
I don't like getting involved, but
I remember him once being a drama queen about it being his last post ever on BCB….so no, I don’t think he will stop replying. And talk about hormones….
Look into my eyes!
I remember that too.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
As could you
stop replying that is. That would make sense, particularly in light of the fact that you almost never contribute anything of value or any original thoughts. All I ever see from you is snippy comments (not just to me, but to anyone you disagree with) and pithy non-sequiturs that don’t advance the thread one iota.
Let me know if and when you ever have anything interesting to say.
I didn't start this....YOU did.
I responded to Cubbiegoon and you responded to my reply to him. SteveABQ is the one who insulted you but you chose to ignore him. If you look you will see there are a few on here who agree with Steve.
Your lame attempts to insult me only show what a small and immature person you are.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
ST in Naples (Italy!) would be very cool, IMHO. ;-)
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
Lots of Thanks for the Post
I’ve got to think some taxpayer money would be used for a new Cubs ST facility. How much? I don’t know. I am glad the voters are going to get a chance to vote on the issue. The people where you are can decide whether or not the project is worth the trouble or not.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
City of Mesa
has bought into expensive “pie in the sky” projects several times recently. Waveyard, Gaylord, Riverview…my sense of the mood here is that the voters want something concrete to vote on and they are not going to give a blank check on a project based on bogus drawings.
Mesa city officials better understand this, or it will go down on Nov. 2nd.
Not a blank check
Capped at $84 million. $15 million in infrastructure (although estimates are pegged at $2 million).
by westerncubbie on Oct 4, 2010 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions
And the City of Mesa
has this in writing, in a legally binding document, right?
Could you direct me to where I can view this document?
(Tongue firmly in cheek)
Know the facts
The $84 million is the cap on the stadium cost. Infrastructure is capped at $15 million. This is night and day from Glendale.
Everyone has made is very clear these are renderings.
The two opposition “groups” are nothing what they make of it. Vote No is Bob Kammerath and Chuck Daggs. They didn’t want it in their back yard.
VBO is Jan Hibberd and David Molina. Two people who have opposed everything and are single handedly responsible for much of the stagnant progress you see in Mesa.
by westerncubbie on Oct 4, 2010 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree with you
but David Molina’s group getting involved is significant because they have been to the rodeo many times before. They know what they are doing and have the organization in place.
The mood of the voters is very touchy right now when it comes to spending…that is clear. They feel (with ample justification) that they have been sold a bill of goods on a lot of issues lately and this just might be the one where they say, “enough is enough”.
VBO is bunk
They are nothing but NO. They killed the Cards stadium and they have tried to kill everything else. They are old and have zero influence. It’s two people with ZERO factual arguments.
by westerncubbie on Oct 4, 2010 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Again
I don’t disagree, but you contradict yourself when you say they have zero influence. How could they kill the Cardinals stadium if they have zero influence? As I have pointed out, they know the weak areas of this proposal and they will attack them and people will listen. This is no slam dunk. And Mesa better stop with the sleight of hand RIGHT NOW or they will torpedo this thing themselves.
Now
They have zero influence now. They killed the stadium and everyone woke up to the never-ending damaging effects it had.
Again, I just don’t see sleight of hand. It’s all out right in front of you.
by westerncubbie on Oct 4, 2010 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions
As I recall
the Cardinals Stadium was opposed by the Mayor of Mesa as well.
I realize that we have a different Mayor now, who views these things differently, but pehaps that explains why some of us are wary of the type of leadership we have seen over the years in Mesa.
Looks cool.
But I doubt I’ll ever go there in my life.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
"My favorite food is Macaroni and Cheese, from the blue box." Geovany Soto
Uh, no taxpayer money?
So there are claims no taxpayer money will be used. So who exactly owns that land that is intended to be sold? The tooth fairy? I would imagine that in these times the land money could be used for far better purposes than a professional sports stadium.
Exactly
Even if they were to say “No new tax revenue will be utilized”, I would be skeptical, but to say no taxpayer money is just plain bogus. As a resident of Mesa, I helped pay for that land in Pinal County, and it was not with the understanding that it would be used to subsidize a new ballpark for a baseball team that has a facility that is only 13 years old.
That's just one of the hilarious parts, azjazzman.
If you helped pay for a car and pitched in for its upkeep and a years later someone sold it, would you say it cost you nothing? The idea that something that is not called a tax is therefore not a burden on tax payers either speaks to peoples’ ignorance or their blind desire for this facility to become a reality.
As someone who spent several years debunking the absurd economic impact studies that accompany these projects, I will say once again, trust no one’s numbers if they’re selling a stadium or convention center. They are the 21st century’s answer to the snake oil salesman. Sadly, communities and states undergoing economic trauma such as Arizona are even more likely to take the bait than those that are economically solvent.
I could argue the facts which you continue to ignore, or...
I could sit back and hope 420 fails and the Cubs pack-up and leave. It would be worth it to watch Mesa adopt YOUR strategy of waiting around for high profile businesses to flow into Mesa with billions of dollars to build and employ.
Let me know how that works out for you!!! LMAO!!!
I'm wet nurse to a (5th)-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
Right. Exactly who's talking about spending billions in Mesa?
Sure isn’t the Cubs. They’re talking about a tax-payer subsidized facility (and it is exactly that whether it involves direct taxation or not) supplying maybe a few hundred service industry jobs. Boom times!
That is the point.
This huge economic benefit that Mesa gets from having the Cubs here is not huge at all, and it mostly goes to Scottsdale and other cities.
Mesa gets stuck with the bill, and most of the money that is spent is spent in Scottsdale. People need to realize this.
They don't say that
They don’t say no taxpayer money. It’s no new or increased taxes. No sales or property tax.
They are using an asset that doesn’t produce a thing and building a stadium that will produce millions in revenue.
by westerncubbie on Oct 4, 2010 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I was under the impression
that the reason Mesa acquired the Pinal County land was for the water rights.
So, Mesa no longer feels it needs to be proactive in planning for water for future growth?
Tax decrease
If Mesa no longer wants future water planning, they should sell the land and decrease taxes. There is currently a ballpark, yet Mesa is held hostage by the Cubs to fund a new stadium. I say wrong time Mr. Ricketts. Please focus your energies on your baseball team right now, they need you.
and building a really good spring training facility
isn’t focus on the baseball team?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Oct 4, 2010 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Can't use it
They can’t use the land for water rights anymore and they have secured replacement needs because of that.
by westerncubbie on Oct 4, 2010 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Would like to know more about this
Is there some place I can go to learn more? What happened to the water rights?
I couldn't be happier
Pinal County has serious problem with earth fissures created by the depletion of subground aquafers. The ground simply collapses under it’s own weight taking any associated structures with it.
Of course if Mesa chooses to deplete the water table beneath your home I completely approve.
I'm wet nurse to a (5th)-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
Now you are the one that appears to have been in a coma
The problem with overpumping of groundwater in Central Arizona, which was what caused the fissures in Pinal County, was an issue 25 years ago. It has for the most part been alleviated and in fact, all over Central Arizona, the groundwater supply is being replenished and has largely been replaced by water from the Central Arizona project.
I know your mischaracterization was just a lame excuse to take a shot at me, but really, why don’t you demonstrate some maturity (if you possess any) and stick to the topic at hand instead of personal vendettas.
What is your deal?
Before buying my Pinal Co. home in ‘08 my realtor alerted me to an ONGOING problem with fissures. He gave me a hand drawn map highlighting areas to avoid. I just Googled “Pinal County, Fissures” and the very first link contained this 2008 map which clearly shows fissures disecting neighborhoods. I know you’ll dismiss this evidence as some elaborate Cub fan conspiracy, right?
http://www.azgs.az.gov/Earth%20Fissures/PetesCorner11-08.pdf
Ya know there was a time when I actually thought you were cool. We could debate this subject in an amiable manner. Those days are obviously are over. I’m beginning to wonder if you have some pathological need to harass and annoy people? You are obviously not a Cub fan and some of your comments border on outright lies. Makes me wonder why Al tolerates your antics?
I'm wet nurse to a (5th)-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
by Eisman57 on Oct 5, 2010 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Have lived in Arizona
for 45 years. I am well acquainted with water issues here and have worked with and for companies involved with water supply issues.
So, I am pretty well versed on this subject. Better versed than your real estate agent, I’ll wager. And the fact is, the RE agent is legally required to make that disclosure.
I didn’t say that fissures don’t exist. What I did say and is unarguable is that the peak of this problem was 25 years ago, and it is much less of a problem now. As more surface water supplies have been developed less is pumped out of the ground. And the biggest change is the retirement of farmland, which has occurred at an astounding rate over the past 30 years. Residential and industrial land uses about 10% of the water that farmland does, so every time farmland is sold for a housing development (as yours no doubt was) it helps the situation dramaticaly.
The fissures that were created 25 years ago don’t go away. What does go away is the subsidence that creates the fissures. This is probably more info than you wanted or needed, but trust me, I do know what I am talking about.
You know I bet you were a real blast
to be around in high school. Probably had the prettiest girls hanging off your arm, and every guy wanting to be your friend.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
Wow
Really scraping the bottom of the barrel now, aren’t we?
Real classy. Sounds like you have some unresolved issues about your own experience in high school.
Pot calling the kettle
Like you are a class act yourself.
Also maybe I was a know-it-all unpopular asshole like you when I was in high school. I grew out of it, whats your excuse?
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
Ok
So we can agree about the wording. The question really is, is there belief that the asset or money is best used by this type of expense. You say yes, for revenue purposes, I say no, based on the importance for all public spending in all circumstances to be extremely minimal in these times.
Well, the voters get to have the last word
on that. I think they will approve if the City will just quit with double talk and smoke screens and just be honest about what they are proposing. Waveyard provides a perfect example for voters of the consequences of buying a pig in a poke.
No consequence
There was no consequence because there was no money lost on Waveyard. What smoke screens are you talking about? You have everything you can ask for in regards to details.
by westerncubbie on Oct 4, 2010 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Answer me this, westerncubbie
If this were your campaign to run, would you use this as one of your arguments?
And best of all, it can all happen without raising sales taxes or property taxes and without spending any Mesa general fund tax dollars!
Do the 420 folks really think this to be a true statement? And do they really think anyone is going to believe this? I mean, seriously… I was expecting to see Matt Murton riding that unicorn again with lots of sunshine, puppies and rainbows in the background.
It’s not so much of a smoke screen as it is an insult to my intelligence. At least that’s how I’d feel if I was a voter in Mesa and saw that.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Uhhhhh YES
It doesn’t use sales tax, property tax or general fund money.
It uses non-revenue producing farm land sold over 20 years to get a stadium that is proven to attract million a year in economic activity.
by westerncubbie on Oct 4, 2010 7:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Fail to see much of a distinction
The land, if it is not needed, could be sold and the proceeds added to the Enterprise fund…where it could be used for the purpose the fund was created for – which does not include building ballparks for teams that already have one.
Spring Training
Spring Training has been a part of the Enterprise Fund. Makes sense to use the land for something that will produce lots of revenue.
by westerncubbie on Oct 4, 2010 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Well sure, it's easy to say "YES" now, because it hasn't happened yet.
But fast-forward a couple years… do you honestly think that’s how it will turn out? There won’t be any overages and there won’t be a need to dip into the general fund tax dollar coffers later?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Cubs cover overage
If it goes over, the Cubs are responsible for all overages. The Cubs pay to maintain the facility for the duration of the 30 year lease.
by westerncubbie on Oct 4, 2010 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Is that in writing, i.e. part of a signed legal agreement?
If so, then that’s the kind of stuff that should be in front of the voters. Not sunshine and rainbows but definitive statements.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
It is
part of the MOU, which is not legally enforceable and is not really in play now anyway, as the deadlines were not met.
In addition, the MOU only talks about overruns on stadium costs, not infrastructure costs. Anybody that buys the notion that the infrastructure costs will be $2M, as westerncubbie claims, needs to have their heads examined. Keep in mind that nothing shown in the drawings above exist now. A golf course, four softball fields and a park all have to be taken out. Streets, sewers, utilities etc have to be provided.
I would be a lot more persuaded
by this if it wasn’t concurrent with City layoffs, curtailing of city services like fire, police and even the libraries, budget deficits and all the other economic woes of the city of Mesa.
And don’t tell me that the woes will get worse if the Cubs leave. They aren’t leaving in the foreseeable future and their economic impact on Mesa is way overblown anyway.
Build them a new stadium when they really need one…and when the city isn’t in such dire straits. I would think one thing we would have learned is that Government can’t buy their way out of an economic downturn.
There certainly is a consequence
and it is affecting the Cubs and Mesa both. That land is tied up until July 2011 because the voters (and Mesa) bought into Waveyard.
It’s great to say, oh well, Waveyard will never get built, but Mesa was singing a different tune in 2007…selling the idea that this would be the economic engine that Mesa needs. Pretty similar to what is being said now…except the Cubs are already in Mesa and this is just about not letting them leave.
Proven
Cubs are proven and we can see directly the enormous hit Mesa will take if they leave. Something I’m afraid we’d never recover from.
by westerncubbie on Oct 4, 2010 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Call their bluff
Call their bluff. C’mon, are they really going to move? Seriously? Ok, you are the new owner trying to keep CubNation happy (especially now with the sad sack team they’re in charge of) and one of your first moves is to pack the team up and move 3,000 miles to swampland? Really? CALL THEIR BLUFF.
Why wouldn't they move?
I’ll copy from the AZCentral site that someone posted (not me).
That really worked out great for the Seattle Supersonics and the bluff they called on their new owner…This is a business and at the end of the day, they know their fans will follow them to Florida.
by westerncubbie on Oct 4, 2010 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions
One huge reason they wouldn't move
is that the group in Florida got pissed off that they Cubs would not give them exclusive negotiating rights and pulled their “proposal” off the table.
This was not hard for them to do, since there was nothing concrete in their proposal anyway…it was even more smoke and mirrors than Mesa is.
if the Cubs moved to Florida
I would go to several spring training games, because my wife loves florida and has no interest in Arizona.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Oct 4, 2010 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Real fans head to
Az to see Cactus league games . From 1974 to 2000 I had alot of relatives in the Sunshine State . I saw alot of games in Florida . It felt like many of the fans were there because Disney or the beach were packed . Some had no idea what teams were playing !
Cactus league games attract the diehard fans and their friends . You can stay in the Valley and yet attend several games a week . Unlike Florida where you may have to cross the state on over crowded roads . When the weather in the midwest is 20-30 degrees in March it has been warm and sunny in Mesa , Cant wait for ST 2011 !!
Sounded like the truth to me
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
tell that to the Tiger diehards that drive all the way down I-75 every February
or the Pirate fans that fill up Bradenton, Phillie fans to Clearwater, etc. etc. They go to their team’s games – home and away. Ok, so maybe they don’t make the 1 or 2 really long trips that their team may have each year – I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive them if they decide to partake in some other local activity for that day.
Truth is you’re going to find all kinds of fans in both ST settings – the diehards and the “hey – who’s playing again?” types. Ever sit on the lawn in Mesa? It’s pretty much just like the bleachers at Wrigley. Dedicated real fans like Al and BigJohn all the way to the “see and be seen” crowd that’s just there for the beer and sun.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Elitist and wrong too
I hate the “real fans” argument. You know what I like? Real teams. If the Cubs moving to FL increased their chances of making the playoffs , I load the equipment trucks in Mesa.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 5, 2010 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions
But it doesn't.
Where a team trains is irrelevant to postseason play.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's why I put in the "if"
and I consulted my attorney before posting.
I remembered an article about this and it turns out it was by Phil Rogers on his paid spring vacations in AZ and FL – rough job he has there.
Truthfully, I don’t buy into the generalizations about fan bases, spring training sites, or any intersection of the two. Scout, Draft, and Develop better players. Build first class facilities. Cut the best deal you can for a spring training site.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 5, 2010 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Ah, yes...
… the old canard about “more WS winners train in Florida”. What people who say that fail to mention is the fact that until 2003, only one-third of the teams trained in FL — thus about one-third of the winners could be assumed to train there. Plus, the Yankees and Red Sox have won seven of the 15 World Series from 1995-2009 — eliminate them and it gets a bit more equal.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think you meant until 2003, one-third of the teams trained in "AZ"
Also, isn’t it cherry-picking to eliminate the Yankees and Red Sox?
Otherwise, you could eliminate the White Sox and DBacks and it goes back to being lopsided again.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Right, I got it backwards.
But thanks for proving my point. Of all the teams training in Florida, two of them won all but four of the WS won by FL teams from 1995-2009 (Marlins two, Braves one, Phillies one). The other FL training teams won zero World Series during that period.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'm not sure what your point is...
I can apply the same logic to the Arizona side, can’t I?
Of all the teams training in Arizona, two* of them won all but one of the WS won by AZ teams from 1995-2009 (Angels one). The other AZ training teams won zero World Series during that period.
*White Sox and DBacks
Why so defensive about this issue? The fact is, for the time period in question, more WS winners have indeed trained in Florida.
And after doing a little research, I question your one-third assumption. You said until 2003, so starting with 2002 and going backwards 30 years (just to keep the math easy and getting a decent sample size), you’d assume that around 10 WS winners would have trained in AZ, right?
Well, the answer is 6. That’s 1/5, not 1/3. And if you can cherry-pick on the Yankees and Red Sox, then I’ll cherry-pick on the A’s for this window – they won 4 of those 6. Take them out, and there’s only 2 WS winners that trained in AZ 1972-2002.
Again, why does it matter? Teams win World Series, not training sites.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
You have proven my point yet again!
Teams win World Series, not training sites.
Correct. It was the Florida people arguing that training in FL made a WS winner, not the Arizona people. You are 100% correct that the team matters, not the training site.
Defensive? No. Just trying to blow up a myth.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Not only that
look at this way. The AL West and the NL West are entirely composed of teams that train in AZ. The AL East and the NL East are entirely made up of teams that train in FL. The NL Central and AL Central are split about 50-50.
It is true that the majority of World Series winners in recent times have come out of the Eastern Divisions. A couple have come out of the west and a couple have come out of the Central.
But, most have come out of the east. Is that because they train in FL? If anyone thinks so, I have some prime beach front property in Yuma I’d like to show you.
Anybody that thinks
where a team conducts ST has any impact on whether they will win a World Series or not will believe anything.
That is like saying that if you are born in Arkansas you are more likely to become President, because 1/3 of the Presidents since 1992 were born in Arkansas.
Well, geez.
At least we finally agree on something here.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Triple points for
using “canard” correctly in a sentence.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 5, 2010 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Here is a pretty good Q&A
from the AZ Republic. It addresses some of the same issues I raised above.
Cubs spending on Wrigleyville West
Have you heard any numbers on how much money the Cubs plan to spend on the Wrigleyville West complex? The number of temporary construction jobs? Seasonal jobs? Full-time jobs?
Thanks for posting that link.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 5, 2010 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions
No of course not
The fact is, the Cubs have consistently, from Day One, been very careful and circumspect about not committing to anything. Even the MOU is something they could void if they chose to do so.
That is not to say that the Cubs have not acted in good faith – just the opposite. I think a lot of the negotiations have been based on the fact that Mesa and the Cubs have enjoyed a good business relationship over the years.
But, there is no way anyone could get specific about Wrigleyville West in this economy. Riverview, which is a large shopping and entertainment complex right next to this site has struggled from Day One. After the voters of Mesa, once again, bought into the grandiose ideas of the developer, the economy tanked and it is still mostly vacant land, save for a Bass Pro Shop and a Toby Keith nightclub.
Hey, the conceptuals look great…but they are all predicated on there being businesses that are willing to invest in this part of Mesa in a project like this. It’s anybody’s guess as to whether that will happen, but in this environment, it is a safe bet that there isn’t a line of businesses waiting to do so.
Another point…a significant change from the original plan (MOU) to this one that isn’t discussed much. In the original plan, the Cubs were going to buy the land and lease the stadium and surrounding amenities (not Wrigleyville West) back to the city.
Now, since Mesa owns this land, they will lease it to the Cubs. Not sure about the Wrigleyville part, but in any event, this alone changes the economic model for this whole project.
I'm sure Mesa voters are gun-shy now
From past developer friendly initiatives, fool me once, shame on you….
I suspect that Mesa voters may view the Cubs differently, having been long-term partners tenants of Mesa. And the Cubs do at least bring trustworthy numbers – here’s how many people come to ST games now in Mesa.
On the other hand, Mesa voters should be wary of this from that article:
What, exactly, is Wrigleyville?
It’s been described as a sort of Downtown Disney with a baseball twist.
Sounds great on the face. But people don’t go to Downtown Disney by itself. They go there for the rides at Disney. And they can go there year round, something the Cubs can’t offer.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 6, 2010 12:36 AM CDT up reply actions
The analogy to Downtown Disney
is a bad one all the way around. Anybody that thinks what might happen at Riverview will resemble Downtown Disney has obviously never been there.
But, just for the sake of accuracy, it is not true that people don’t go to Downtown Disney by itself. I used to live in Orange County and I went to Downtown Disney numerous times when I wasn’t going to the theme parks. Lots of people do.
But your point about the voters in Mesa being gun-shy is right on the money. We have already been led down the primrose path multiple times on similar developments and in many cases by the same people who are now touting Wrigleyville West.
There are a lot of unanswered questions that have people concerned. For instance, with the City now leasing the land to the Cubs, does that mean the city will not be collecting Property taxes on this development?
Same here.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
!
Nobody is forcing anyone to read this stuff. If you don’t like the topic, read or start another one.
Back at ya.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
Not appropriate
In the first place, he isn’t the one complaining.
Secondly, what he says has a lot of merit. Complaining about this thread and saying you wish it would stop is like taking a trip to Phoenix in July and complaining it is hot. If it bothers you, don’t go there.
And you can take heart, it will be resolved in less than a month, in any event.
I was not complaining about
this thread. I was agreeing with him that I will be glad when a decision is made.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
nice pic...
Nice job keeping the cubs in town…what I wnnna know is when does the pool open?…lol
by nmcubsfan on Oct 5, 2010 9:49 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Nice! Can't wait to see it open.
Hopefully someday I will get to visit the venue.
Jack Brickhouse: "Hey! Hey!"
Harry Caray: "Holy Cow!"
Vince Lloyd: "The Chicago Cubs are on the Air!"
Len Casper: "Oh Baby!"
Bob Brenly: "Give it to a Kid!"
Ron Santo: "YES!", "All Right!, let's do it!", "Oh No!", "Oh jeez come on!" AND...
"This Is The Year!"
by #1 iowan cubs fan on Oct 5, 2010 8:30 PM CDT reply actions
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