Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Devils Beat Rangers, Head To Stanley Cup Finals

Your Chicago Cubs: 2013


This is potentially what the Cubs line up could look like in 2013. Now as always this won't be what we will probably actually look like because of FA, trades, and prospects not panning out. This is just my take and of coarse you can argue your take since there are numerous players who are interchangable. I think by 2013 we could be in a position to be a contender. By this time Castro, BJax, McNutt, Archer, Cashner, J.Jackson, and Carpenter should all have some ML expierence.

C. Robinson Chirinos  (R)

1B. Geovanny Soto (R) - Will get an occasional start behind the plate.

2B. Hak-Ju Lee (L) - Should be ready by mid-season.

3B. Josh Vitters (R) - Potentially a solid starter posting 270-280 15+ HR

SS. Starlin Castro (R) - Should be coming into his own as an A.S.

RF. Tyler Colvin (L) - For lack of a better option that I can see at this point. Guyer or Lake may be possibilities.

CF. Brett Jackson (L) - Should have about 700-800 ML ABs by opening day and ready to be a solid contributer.

LF. Alfonso Soriano (R) - Will be in last year of contract and probably not real productive. Maybe on the bench in favor of Guyer or Lake.

Bench:

C. Wellington Castillo (R)

IF. Darwin Barney (R)

2B/3B/1B. Blake DeWitt (L)

OF. Brandon Guyer (R)

IF/OF. Junior Lake (R)

Starting Pitchers:

R. Ryan Dempster - Will be on the downside of his career.

R. Trey McNutt - I think he could be coming into his own as 1 of the best young Sp in the game.

R. Chris Archer - Not sure he'll stick as a SP.

R. Chris Carpenter - Back end starter should eat innings and post around a 4 era.

L. Sean Marshall - Return to the rotation for our lefty arm.

Bullpen:

CL. Carlos Marmol

Set-Up. Andrew Cashner/Rafael Dolis - Power Arms w/ high 90s FB and nasty breaking pitches will play up in short stints.

Long Man. Jay Jackson - Spot starter and middle releiver.

Lefty. Chris Rusin - Could be a nice lefty specialist ala Sean Marshall.

Lefty. Brooks Raley

Player in our system who maybe ready to contribute in 2013:

RHP. Hayden Simpson

IF. D.J. LeMahieu

OF. Jae-Hoon Ha

Line Up:

1. 2B Lee

2. SS Castro

3. CF B. Jackson

4. 1B. Soto

5. 3B. Vitters

6. RF. Colvin

7. LF. Soriano

8. C Chirinos

This could be a solid group with Castro as the star and if Vitters, BJax, and Lee ready to be just solid players and Geo still hitting the line up has potential to be solid. The SP should be deep with some shuffling of starters and relievers.

Even if Vitters, BJax, Lee, McNutt, Archer, and others are just solid players combined with Castro this is a real solid talent base. Now coming into 2013 the Cubs could be in an enviable postition. With the contracts of Soriano and Dempster coming off the books at the end of '13 and the only other long term contracts belonging to Soto and Marmol and the rest of the team cost controled we would have a real flexiable roster. This is why I advocate staying away from guys like Dunn this year and next year in free agency. Coming into 2013 depending on the FA landscape we would have the payroll to add a big name bat/SP or both. Also depending on the state of the farm system the potential to make a deadline deal that could be the piece we need to put us over the top.

Of coarse not everyone is gonna pan out and other changes will be made but this is just me dreaming away. Let me know your thoughts as I'm sure the community will see players in different roles because this is just speculation.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

Comment 137 comments  |  4 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

More from Bleed Cubbie Blue

Cubs Minor League Wrap: May 8

May 2012 by Josh Timmers - 35 comments

Cubs Minor League Wrap: May 7

May 2012 by Josh Timmers - 46 comments

Cubs Minor League Wrap: May 6

May 2012 by Josh Timmers - 6 comments

Cubs Minor League Wrap: May 1

May 2012 by Josh Timmers - 78 comments

Comments

Display:

Edit Button

Not seeing the edit button. Sorry had a few spelling errors.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Nov 10, 2010 6:43 AM CST reply actions  

LMAO!!!

All these potential young stars, then you have Grandpa, Alfonso Soriano

by LuvMLB on Nov 10, 2010 8:30 AM CST reply actions  

This sort of dreaming can be fun

Of course, no team is ever built entirely from its own farm system.

Interesting that you mention Lake a couple of times as an outfield possibility. I would think if anyone would move, it would be Vitters. Lake, as an OK shortstop, could make for an excellent defensive 3B.

Also, of course, you left out Ryan Flaherty hitting cleanup.

No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.

by cubzfan on Nov 10, 2010 8:32 AM CST reply actions  

Very true!!!!!!!!!!!!!

His value is as a catcher. Once he moves he is below average.

by TJ11 on Nov 10, 2010 8:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed & rec'd

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 10, 2010 8:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Sigh...

His value does decline (now) if he moves out from behind the plate, but he is not below average at 1B (8th in wOBA among 1Bs in 2010, 9th in 2008).

by Bradsbeard on Nov 10, 2010 11:03 AM CST up reply actions  

+1

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Nov 10, 2010 11:18 AM CST up reply actions  

sigh....

simple math

the replacement level for 1B is higher level of absolute production than the replacement level for C

you move Soto from C to 1B, his production remains the same but you go from plugging in a replacement level 1B with a line of say .260/.330/.450 to plugging in a C with a line of .240/.320/.410

that’s a net loss, and a rather big one

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 10, 2010 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Right now yes, moving Soto to 1B would be a net lost (and stupid!)

I do not advocate moving Soto from catcher anytime soon. No one is that I can tell. But if he can’t catch anymore in 3 or 4 years, he would theoretically be able to hit enough to play 1B. That’s not saying he is now or will ever be the best available option at 1B, but he certainly wouldn’t be the worst.

For what its worth, Beyond the Boxscore rates Soto’s defense at catcher as just a little better than Jason Variteck.

by Bradsbeard on Nov 10, 2010 12:56 PM CST up reply actions  

so...

now you’ve changed the parameters to…

“Its a good move IF he can’t catch anymore”

Well… ok… yeah if he’s physically declined so much that it ONLY impacts his defense and has no impact on his offense, then its a viable option. But gee… that’s an awful lot of assumptions to put in there.

The bottom line is you don’t ever consider moving an elite offensive catcher from behind the plate until its painfully obvious that 1) he’s not a catcher (think Jake Fox) or 2) he can’t stay healthy at all behind the plate. Soto’s played in over 100 games behind the plate in each of the three years he’s been up averaging 116 games/year.

He’ll be 28 when the next season comes around, 2 years from now he’ll be 30. You’re baking in a whole lot of defensive regression (without any offensive regression mind you) into this assumption. It just seems ludicrous to me

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 10, 2010 1:04 PM CST up reply actions  

apologies

just realized i missed a post and you were replying to just the fact that his offense wasn’t below average at 1B (which is accurate). I interpreted it as you supporting the idea that moving him to 1B full-time was still ok

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 10, 2010 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Hah!

Well, I’ll just not post the long screed I was about to reply with. Looking at your post below, I think we are in basic agreement about Soto. 1) his bat will hypothetically play at 1B, 2) working him in at 1B once or twice a week to keep his bat in the lineup is a potentially good idea.

Whether he could or should ever move to 1B full time is of course dependent on a lot of x factors. It’s conceivable that we could have a superior defensive catcher who could hit enough to justify moving Soto to 1B full time. I’m not saying that’s terribly likely, but if it did happen, I think we’d be OK with Soto as our 1B.

by Bradsbeard on Nov 10, 2010 1:41 PM CST up reply actions  

I am in favor of giving Soto

Spot time at 1B. I don’t see a reason he couldn’t be the / a back-up 1B to get his bat in the line-up while also resting him from catching duties. (Personally, I like the idea of signing VMart and having the two of them kind of split the 1B/C duties.)

But I must have missed it, so please bear with me if you’d explain it (apparently, again).

Soto’s 2010 OPS was .890.

NL 1B by OPS: Votto (1.024), Pujols (1.011), AGon (.904), Dunn (.892), Huff (.891).

So, by OPS, Soto would essentially have tied for fourth among NL 1B. How is that “below average” or “only makes the team worse”?

It seems that much of the criticism is that Soto’s numbers don’t translate to 1B. But, if he did move full-time (again, I am not a proponent at this point), wouldn’t two things be likely: fewer injuries and an offensive boost as you take away the wear and tear of catching?

If the bulk of the opposition is that moving Soto takes away an offensive advantage at catcher, then I get that. But is there really a problem with getting him some starts at 1B? And if one of the younger catchers develops (the OP is proposing Chirinos), why is it so absurd to think about eventually (2013 in this scenario) sliding Soto?

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Nov 10, 2010 10:57 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Because it goes from being

A huge plus at offense at catcher, to at best average production at First and below average production at Catcher.

You can find an elite hitting First baseman this offseason. Pair that with an elite hitting Catcher. Then you have the foundation for a lineup.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Nov 10, 2010 11:00 AM CST up reply actions  

Uh, what? Did you even read the post?

How is a nearly .890+ OPS “at best average”? What “elite 1B” are available this offseason? Dunn? Huff? Look at the numbers again. They are nearly identical.

I also said IF one of the young catchers develops.

And this “proposal” is looking at 2013. There are two full seasons of baseball between now and then. With how catchers “age” it is safe to say Soto would probably be an inferior defender at that point, negating some/much of his offensive advantage.

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Nov 10, 2010 11:07 AM CST up reply actions  

Also

getting soto’s bat in the line up more is a plus considering he only got 387 ABs last year. If you could add 40 games and 150-170 Abs to his numbers they are more then respectable for a 1B. This is just rough figuring but 280/390/500 25 Hr and just 73 rbis but thats figuring from him hitting 6/7 most of the year. If you move him up to 4/5 your talking more like 85-100 rbi.

The fact is getting is bat in the line up more and helping him stay healthier and more durable in a move to 1B would be a plus.

No wait let’s let Soto continue to play 100 games behind the plate and go get the definition of AAAA player Kila to play 1B.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Nov 10, 2010 11:25 AM CST up reply actions  

OK, so it's above average at 1B.

It’s OUTSTANDING at catcher. Just how do you propose to replace that?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 10, 2010 11:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Well... a very, very large part of the equation is that this "proposal" is looking at 2013. That's two full seasons away. This must be kept in mind.

Part of what has mitigated Soto’s numbers is injuries. Surely catching has been a contributing factor.

So while he has been outstanding in two of his three seasons, he hasn’t been able to stay on the field. I think that gets lost in all of the praise, which is deserved, of Soto’s play.

As for replacing Soto behind the plate, the OP has put Chirinos in place. Is it likely Chirinos can replicate Soto’s offense? Of course not.

BUT… first, really nobody thought Soto would be Soto. He had one break out year and all of a sudden, there he was. Second, Chirinos has really been developing with the bat. What if he could be a league average offensive catcher (or even a little better… the bar is fairly low)?

In 2010, the Cubs had very subpar production at 1B and excellent production from Soto in somewhat limited time behind the plate. This mitigated Soto’s impact. Hill ended up with over 37% of the catchers’ ABs!!!! So while it is amazing (!!!) that Soto put up a .385 wOBA in his 387 PAs, that is dampened by Hill’s .242 wOBA in 231 PAs.

Here are the numbers for all Cubs’ catchers in 2010 (all ABs, so some PH is included). And here’s 1B.

If in 2013, Chirinos could be league average or slightly better at C and Soto could be above average at 1B (presumably playing much closer to full-time), isn’t that a net gain for the offense? It is, IMO. Imagine a world where you get league average production from your catcher’s spot and 525 ABs for Soto!

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Nov 10, 2010 12:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Al, that is not the question

the question is how do you replace Soto’s production at catcher on the days where he needs a breather. At least this season, that meant playing Koyie Hill, sitting Soto, and starting and a 1B whose production was well below Soto’s (both Lee and Nady). So the best scenario there would have been Soto at 1B on the days he didn’t catch.

If we sign Adam Dunn or traded for Adrian Gonzalez, than this discussion is basically moot. But for this year, say we sign a Berkman or LaRoche and their offensive production was equal to or lesser than Sotos. If you were to start Soto against lefties instead of sitting him every third day or so, you would keep his superior bat in the lineup.

Then down the road (2013 or beyond), say we have signed Soto to a fairly long extension, but it is obvious his defense is inadequate behind the plate. Depending on who we have or could acquire to play 1B, Soto could conceivably have more value at 1B than at C.

by Bradsbeard on Nov 10, 2010 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Geo also had a .702 OPS in 2009

Is it just a foregone conclusion that because he put up an 890 in 322 at bats this year. We should just assume that he’s a 900 OPS guy going forward?

Matt Murton put up a 908 OPS in 2005. Maybe we should bring him back and put him at first?

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Nov 10, 2010 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

It would be silly to make any "assumptions", but this is kind of silly logic.

If he does slip offensively, does it really matter where he plays? And if you think he might slip, why would we assume Dunn or Huff would maintain their production as they start to leave their prime years?

Plus, since Geo came in rededicated in 2010… his 2010 & 2008 are probably more predictive than his out of shape 2009 numbers.

And while I assume you’re being facetious, your line of “logic” is a poor example. Murton’s .908 was in 160 PAs. SSS

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Nov 10, 2010 12:19 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd be all for bringing Murton back

but that’s another issue. If we really think Soto’s true talent is more like 2009 than 2008 or 2010 (or 2007 for that matter), than we’ve got a bigger problem than whether he can hit enough to play 1B. When Soto has been in shape he has hit, and he has hit really well (well enough to play 1B even!).

Let’s just theoretically say Soto was always a 1B coming up through the minors. Then lets assume he put up the same numbers his last year of AAA (349/.422/ .640) Then lets assume he came up as a 1B instead of a catcher and put up his rookie numbers (.285/.364/.504). There wouldn’t be much discussion that Soto could not hit enough to play 1B (and we’ll assume the defense there is good enough).

Then assume the horrendous sophomore year happened (.218/.321/.381), followed by a big bounce back this year (.280/.393/.497). While there may be some lingering doubts about which Soto will show up in 2011, nobody would be questioning whether he was capable of filling 1B on a major league roster.

by Bradsbeard on Nov 10, 2010 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Even at 702 OPS

Soto is still an acceptable offensive catcher. However 702 OPS at First Base is an abject Train Wreck.

That was more the point I was making. His numbers were good in 322 at bats. But its a small sample size and he’s shown to be injury prone. Therefore I’d rather find more of a sure thing at First going forward (Dunn,Gonzalez,Fielder,Pujols).

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Nov 10, 2010 1:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks for posting this.

Also, nobody seems to care about defense at first base. We became accustomed to it with Lee, but the idea of Soto at first makes me cringe. He’s not particularly tall, listed at 6’1 and his weight, even though it was non-issue in 2010, could once again become an issue in the future. Plus, and this is just an assumption, I’d bet his range and leaping ability are quite limited.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Nov 10, 2010 5:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Spot time: Yea!

I truly think Chirinos or Castillo could put up an .800 OPS against lefties. Rather than a truly awful idea, like getting Jeff Francouer to be the RH part of a platoon, let the young catcher do it and get Soto’s bat in the lineup at 1B once a week. Then, let Soto DH when possible. Getting Geo 500 AB should be a priority in 2011, and with his recurring hand problems, he’s not going to get that behind the plate. This implies signing a FA first baseman who bats left and isn’t being paid like a full-time player.

No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.

by cubzfan on Nov 10, 2010 11:52 AM CST up reply actions  

its simple

it makes the team worse because you’re now replacing a 1B with a C in the lineup

you’re replacing say Derrek Lee with Koyie Hill.

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 10, 2010 12:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Look at it this way

In 2010 we were sitting Soto (our best hitter) altogether every third day and replacing him with Hill. A better option would have been playing Soto at 1B every third day (where he upgrades 1B) than playing Hill and an inferior hitter at 1B every third day. Not to mention, in retrospect, sitting Lee every third day might have helped his hand heal so he could get on track (and acknowledging that going into 2010 we weren’t considering Soto to be our best hitter). But if Soto happens to be our best hitter again next year (and that’s not hard to envision), I can’t see the downside to this approach.

As I said above, if we have a big time 1B (Dunn, Gonzalez, whoever), we’re not worrying about this as much. But if our 1B is Adam LaRoche, why not keep Soto’s bat in the lineup?

Seeing your post below, I suppose it does remains to be seen whether Soto could handle 1B defensively.

by Bradsbeard on Nov 10, 2010 1:08 PM CST up reply actions  

again

i’m OK with spot time at 1B as a way to get Geo’s bat in the lineup on days he needs a day off (if the defense is passable, otherwise i’d rather him get less days off but more full rest days, i.e. not having to play 1B)

but the OP projects Soto with occasional spot starts at CATCHER and as a primary 1B, that is what i object to. Plain and simple.

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 10, 2010 1:12 PM CST up reply actions  

maybe he will get more at bats

simply because we don’t have a doofus batting him eighth in the line-up

by Notsnud on Nov 11, 2010 1:11 AM CST up reply actions  

Well obviously this doesn't work if

a Hil-level hitter is inserted into the line-up. But if the Cubs can’t find a catcher who can hit more than Hill, we need to clean house in upper management (which might be needed anyway).

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Nov 10, 2010 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

ok lets go with

Benjie Molina (0.4 WAR as C last season) – .249/.297/.326 – .623 OPS
vs.
Michael Cuddyer (0.4 WAR as 1B last season) – .271/.336/.417 – .753 OPS

do you see the difference?

That’s the replacement level difference between the two positions. If you’re looking to move Soto to 1B and find a C instead of a 1B, you’re generally giving up about 100-120 pts in OPS. It’s a big downgrade offensively

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 10, 2010 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

But we need different comparison points and more data.

What OPS did the Cubs get from their 1B in 2010… about .200?? (Kidding, kind of.)

And Koyie’s OPS in 2010 was .552.

So by replacing DLee et al. with Soto and replacing Koyie with Benjie, how is that not an overall gain?

And I still think Soto’s offensive numbers go up by giving up the gear, so I’m always thinking about that, too.

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Nov 10, 2010 3:36 PM CST up reply actions  

huh?

you’ve completely lost me

choosing Benji Molina (or types like that) over Derrek Lee or Michael Cuddyer or even the Cubs abysmal aggregate 2010 line at 1B (.722 OPS) is a losing decision, every single time

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 10, 2010 3:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Unless

Soto improves his numbers by playing 1B and/or plays more often.

If Soto could hold a nearly .900 OPS to 1B, that would be a ~ .180 point upgrade on the 2010 1B. Seeing as Koyie got almost 40% of the catcher ABs, wouldn’t putting Molina (or someone similar) in that spot… even if you “lose” some of the Soto production from the C spot be an advantage?

Didn’t Cubs C total ~.780 OPS (sorry, not sure where to find the aggregate)? If you “drop” to Molina level across the playing time, you “lose” ~.150 OPS. So isn’t that a net gain??

Regardless of the math… I get your point… I really do.

And I’m sure not hellbent on moving Soto to 1B. I just don’t see any point to eliminating it as a possibility. And, as I’ve noted above, having Soto get some spot duty at 1B seems like a good idea for a number of reasons.

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Nov 10, 2010 4:28 PM CST up reply actions  

your assumption that Soto would improve his OPS by 180 pts

just by playing 1B is rather ridiculous

for example Victor Martinez is the common comparison point here that people have used. For his career his OPS at C and 1B have been:

C – .836 OPS (BABIP .310)
1B – .867 OPS (BABIP .342)

he’s basically shown the exact same skills as a hitter playing 1B or C, he’s just had a bit more good fortune on balls in play as a 1B than as a C

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=martivi01&year=Career&t=b

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 13, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Uh, what?

Where did I say Soto would improve his OPS by 180?

I said if Soto could hold a .900 OPS. His OPS last year was .890. In ’08 it was .868. ’09 appears to be more of an aberration, though it is certainly possible he we would/could slide down a little into the mid .800.

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Nov 14, 2010 10:45 AM CST up reply actions  

ok yeah i read that too quickly

i’m still not sure what you’re missing then….

Yes Soto would be an improvement over last year’s 1B… but then we’d have A HUGE drop-off from what we produced at C, so the quick and easy calculation is to compare what would be readily available at 1B, compared to what would be readily available at C

and consistently it will be easier to find 1B who can out-perform C’s with the bat. So consistently the better lineup could be formed by having Soto’s ~.900 OPS at the C position paired with a 1B, rather than at the 1B position paired with a C

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 14, 2010 7:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Except that the rest of the argument is

That the expectation would be Geo would be able to play more games at 1B than at C. So instead of getting his OPS for 100-110 games, you would get it for 145+.

The other component, replacing Geo’s production at C, has also been covered elsewhere. Every line of posts I’ve made has been predicated on IF the Cubs could find/develop an offensive contributor at catcher. The original post suggests Chirinos, and his prospects seem to be developing. But, if he doesn’t and if Castillo also does not develop, then of course, the impetus to make the move changes.

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Nov 15, 2010 12:47 PM CST up reply actions  

its not JUST developing an offensive contributor

its developing an offensive contributor that can hit like a 1B, not like a C, while catching. Its developing ANOTHER Soto

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 15, 2010 4:29 PM CST up reply actions  

No, it isn't.

You do not seem to be incorporating games played into consideration.

Soto’s OPS @ C is great… but you only get it for 60% of the games. Koyie Hill’s putrid OPS drags down the average.

Meanwhile, Cubs’ 1B were very subpar last year.

IF (and these certainly are “ifs”) Soto could play full-time @ 1B with a ~.900 OPS and the Cubs could develop league average catching production (for instance, let’s say Chirinos and Castillo took over and averaged league average OPS over the course of 162), then the Cubs would experience a net gain on offense.

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Nov 15, 2010 8:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Good arguments fsuapollo

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Nov 16, 2010 7:41 AM CST up reply actions  

lets put some math to it

because i AM incorporating the games factor. The problem is you’re STUCK on net gain over last yr as opposed to net gain over the league average options

So you said Soto at 1B would be 145 games or so at lets say .900 OPS

so we’ll take a look at Soto for 145 + replacement 1B for 17 games + league average C for 162 games

and compare that to, league average 1B for 162 games + Soto for 110 games + league average C for 52 games

So let’s look at the variables:

Soto as a C – .900 OPS
Soto as a 1B – .900 OPS
League average C – .721 OPS (for 2000’s decade according to site below)
League average 1B – .835 OPS (for 2000’s decade according to site below)

http://www.3-dbaseball.net/2009/09/ops-by-position-and-decade.html

The Weighted Averages get you this production:

1B/C OPS with Soto primarily as C = .840 OPS

1B/C OPS with Soto primarily as 1B = .812 OPS

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 16, 2010 9:13 AM CST up reply actions  

to narrow that gap

you’d need the spread between league average C production and league average 1B production to come down from .114 to about .40

OR

you’d need the new Catcher to post an OPS of about .790, in this case Chirinos or Castillo

Castillo’s career minor league OPS – .726
Chirinos career minor league OPS – .772

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 16, 2010 9:19 AM CST up reply actions  

spot time at 1B is ok

the OP projects Soto as the everyday 1B

that’s a big issue, UNLESS Chirinos can produce at a level consistent with the replacement level 1B OR there is some clear indication that Soto’s offensive production IMPROVES at 1B and thus eases the loss of the value from the C spot

all of this also completely ignores the fact that Soto’s biggest weakness is lateral movement, footspeed and range, something that isn’t required very much of him as a Catcher and would very much be required as a 1B.

The defensive dropoff coupled with the downgrade in lineup from a replacement level 1B to a replacement level C in the lineup makes us a far worse team with Soto at 1B

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 10, 2010 12:58 PM CST up reply actions  

I think most of us who are entertaining the idea

Are working under conditions that the Cubs can find or develop another catcher who can carry his weight with the bat.

I don’t think he has to hit at quite replacement level 1B since Soto makes up some of that ground. What he would have to do is be at least an average C bat.

As I noted elsewhere, I think Soto’s offensive numbers could improve at 1B. In fact, I find it fairly illogical to think his numbers wouldn’t improve without the strains of catching. I think of all the “everyday” injuries Brenly always talks about catchers dealing with (dislocated fingers, stiff knees, swollen hand/wrist) that would no longer be an issue at 1B.

As for Soto’s defense at 1B, you raise valid points. I guess my counterpoint is people want to bring in a “sure thing” bat like Dunn who has all the same issues (and more). On the other hand, you would think Soto would bring good reflexes to 1B as well as handle low throws pretty well.

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Nov 10, 2010 1:51 PM CST up reply actions  

What gives you a better chance to be a productive offense?

A)Soto and Koyie HIll

or

B)Soto and Adam Dunn

I’ll go with B

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Nov 10, 2010 2:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed.

But those aren’t the choices… so I’m not sure what your point is.

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Nov 10, 2010 2:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Projects Soto as a 1B IN 2013

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Nov 10, 2010 2:46 PM CST up reply actions  

i get it

he’ll be 30

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 10, 2010 3:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Rec'd

Mostly because I don’t think he can produce enough offense to play first base. Not to mention the fact he doesn’t play first base. I just want to see Soto put together back-to-back productive seasons first and foremost.

He’s a catcher! And a good one, keep him there.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Nov 10, 2010 4:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Definitely rather have...

Soto + bat at 1B.

Getting his offense at C is worth way more to the franchise. If Victor Martinez and Jorge Posada can play C into their 30’s then there’s no reason Soto can’t.

by SenorGato on Nov 10, 2010 11:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Why not? It is an option.

It may not be a great option, clearly it is an option you do not like. His cranky knees are going to limit his catching duties, so if you want his bat in the lineup, 1B will be the only other option.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Nov 12, 2010 8:08 AM CST up reply actions  

rec'd

this isn’t a hard concept to grasp. Well said for the umpteenth time in this thread.

by socalbob on Nov 12, 2010 8:44 AM CST up reply actions  

I'll take your word for it,

but do we know he lacks the mobility and range to be adequate at 1B? I realize they are different skill sets, but catchers do move to 1B quite often, and 1B is generally the easiest position to man.

by Bradsbeard on Nov 12, 2010 10:54 AM CST up reply actions  

its my amateur scouting opinion

so it should be taken with a grain of salt, but i do feel pretty strongly about it.

Its kind of besides the point though, even if he were a capable 1B it wouldn’t make much sense

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 12, 2010 1:20 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree with you,

he doesn’t pass the eye-test for having the mobility, range, or leaping ability to play an average defensive 1B. He’s not particularly tall and his weight could be an issue going forward.

And I’m just curious but which elite offensive catchers in recent memory have converted to 1B by the age of 30? Victor Martinez kind of. But who else? It really doesn’t seem to be that common of a move.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Nov 12, 2010 2:08 PM CST up reply actions  

I should specify

that I meant: which elite offensive catchers at the ML level have been converted to 1B by the age of 30 in recent memory? This would exclude players who’ve been converted prior to reaching the bigs on a full time basis.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Nov 12, 2010 2:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Catchers move to 1B all the time so who is making stuff up now?

I am not saying Soto at 1B is ideal, but it is not a ridiculous idea as you try top paint it. It might be better to have him at 1B than not in the lineup at all, that is the point some are making.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Nov 13, 2010 9:15 AM CST up reply actions  

Catchers move to 1B all the time

Name some, apart from Victor Martinez, who have done this and been successful.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2010 10:05 AM CST up reply actions  

As for Soto's knees

not making anything up, just paying attention instead of trolling geeky stat sites.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Nov 13, 2010 9:22 AM CST up reply actions  

feel like citing some evidence?

i’d love to see what you’ve been “paying attention” to.

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 13, 2010 12:06 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

He went for an MRI in late Aug/early Sep

The MRI did not indicate any serious structural problems but it is something to be aware of. He certainly would not be the first catcher to have knee problems.

Now maybe if they had included this in some stat report, you might have noticed.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Nov 14, 2010 11:06 AM CST up reply actions  

so your evidence

to support he has had knee injuries was an MRI that revealed no issues with his knees?

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 14, 2010 7:56 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

He missed games last year because of his knees

so it would be foolish to ignore the potential for more problems with them down the line. One thing is for certain, catching is not going to help the situation.

As long as his knees seem to be okay, I agree, he is more valuable as a catcher, but it might behoove the Cubs to give him more days off from catching to lengthen his catching career. And if they still want his bat in the lineup, 1B makes the most sense.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Nov 15, 2010 7:50 AM CST up reply actions  

How about we

pencil in Adrian Gonzalez at 1st and Soto at catcher?

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Nov 12, 2010 10:17 AM CST up reply actions  

why not

Soto at 1b and Adrian Gonzalez at C?

Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot

by Cubbie-Tim on Nov 14, 2010 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

It's worked out well for the Hawkeyes...

…and Marvin McNutt.

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Nov 10, 2010 10:11 AM CST up reply actions  

as a total side note

I think I read an interview somewhere where he said he actually preferred to be called Kenneth.

by toonsterwu on Nov 10, 2010 3:13 PM CST up reply actions  

This?
Trey isn’t a nickname, but your actual middle name?

“Yeah. My dad is Kenneth Tracy McNutt; I’m Kenneth Trey. I wish they would’ve just called me Kenneth Tracy McNutt II, then I could’ve just gone by Kenneth or Ken. Lot of people just call me Mac or Nutty.”

link

"Baseball is beautiful...the supreme performing art. It combines in perfect harmony the magnificent features of ballet, drama, art, and ingenuity."
--Bowie Kuhn, Commissioner of Baseball, 1976

by SydKyd on Nov 10, 2010 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

No way the Cubs roster will be almost all farm guys.

Their boat doesn’t float that way. B Jax is the only farm guy that I really believe will make it, at this point in time.

"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
"My favorite food is Macaroni and Cheese, from the blue box." Geovany Soto
"They played like son of a guns......lord have mercy." Mike Quade

by Cubbiegoon on Nov 10, 2010 10:52 AM CST reply actions  

Do you not read so well?

“Now as always this won’t be what we will probably actually look like because of FA, trades, and prospects not panning out. "

and

“Of coarse not everyone is gonna pan out and other changes will be made but this is just me dreaming away.”

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Nov 10, 2010 11:16 AM CST up reply actions  

I carnt reed

"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
"My favorite food is Macaroni and Cheese, from the blue box." Geovany Soto
"They played like son of a guns......lord have mercy." Mike Quade

by Cubbiegoon on Nov 10, 2010 3:41 PM CST up reply actions  

....

"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
"My favorite food is Macaroni and Cheese, from the blue box." Geovany Soto
"They played like son of a guns......lord have mercy." Mike Quade

by Cubbiegoon on Nov 10, 2010 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Haha

Just like in 2006 people wrote 2010 would be:
LF: Matt Murton
2B: Ryan Theriot
SS: Ronny Cedeno

There is absolutely no way to even know what this team will look like in 2012.

by ak123 on Nov 10, 2010 10:53 AM CST reply actions  

or the 2002 BP projection of

Goldbauch
Choi
Bobby Hill
Ronny Cedeno
David Kelton
Nic Jackson
Corey Patterson
Sammy Sosa

leading us to future greatness

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Nov 10, 2010 10:57 AM CST reply actions  

I liked Nic Jackson

He struggled a bit, and then when he was starting to get on a good track, he suffered a serious injury. At best, he would have been a .800 OPS guy with limited power, but I was sorry he never got a chance to make it to the big leagues.

No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.

by cubzfan on Nov 10, 2010 11:48 AM CST up reply actions  

Ha, David Kelton.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Nov 10, 2010 5:05 PM CST up reply actions  

This is a fine idea to look at.

And I think some are misreading the OP because of wording. I don’t believe the OP truly believes this WILL be the 2013 line-up. It is only meant to show that there are prospects coming along that could fill in a line-up.

As for some thoughts on the specifics proposed…

This team is in deep trouble if Demp is the ace in 2013.

Al (and others) are fairly convinced the NL will have the DH by then, so that’s where Sori would probably be.

If Marshall is in the rotation, which I don’t think he will be, it is a waste if he is only the 5th starter.

Most of the minor league guys seem to think Carpenter is more likely bound for the pen than Archer.

I would think it is rather unlikely that DeWitt is still around.

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Nov 10, 2010 11:02 AM CST reply actions  

I'd be SHOCKED to see a DH in the NL

It’s just union posturing at this point. Too many people despise the DH.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Nov 10, 2010 12:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Al has pretty much written this in as a foregone conclusion.

He may be wrong and you may be right. We’ll see.

Certainly the Cubs shouldn’t be planning for a DH until/unless one is put in place. If there’s no DH, then Sori will indeed be camped in LF and there’s one less position to fill.

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Nov 10, 2010 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

I could understand why the Players union would push for it

It would create an extra 16 high paying jobs (in theory).

I just think the backlash would be quite significant. I think we will see an expanded playoffs instead (which I don’t really agree with either).

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Nov 10, 2010 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

For the record, I don't want the DH.

But the only “backlash” would be from baseball “purists”. It is unlikely most of the general audience would care… they seem to like “more offense”, anyway.

Much to my chagrin, I figure the NL DH and an expanded round of playoffs are both on the way.

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Nov 10, 2010 1:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Backlash?

In what way? The game will go on.

As I have said before: I am not in favor of the DH. But I think it is inevitable.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 10, 2010 2:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I think it'll happen as well

although I’m not sure it’s going to happen with the upcoming rounds of negotiations. I’m thinking it’ll be closer to another decade before it happens.

by toonsterwu on Nov 10, 2010 3:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Can't wait to see this team in 2013

on the new Jumbotrons out in left field from my seat in the Smirnoff Party Deck.

Fukudometer: Created 3/31/08 Wrigley Debut 4/5/08 WGN and Japan TV Debut 4/6/08 Sun Times Debut: 4/20/08 Coffee Table Debut: 7/17/08 (http://www.wearecubsfans.com)

by Fukudometer on Nov 10, 2010 11:03 AM CST reply actions  

Do I believe this is exactly what the Cubs roster will be in 2013?

OF COARSE NOT. This was me just playing around with what we have right now and projecting as we stand today. Do you not think the Cubs execs don’t do the same thing? They obviously know that things will change in 2-3 years but it’s good to be aware of how things look today.

This was just a fun post to generate some talk about our future. PPL on this site are so quick to tear down anything anyone else says without even thinking about things. These are the same ppl who offer nothing in the way of posts just mostly going off how everyone is wrong about everything and spreading their negativity.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Nov 10, 2010 11:39 AM CST reply actions  

Thanks for the post!

It might be most constructive to view this list in terms of replacement value. In other words, these are the guys who project to be filling these positions at below market value in 2013. If even just two or three of these guys end up being major contributors during their pre-arb/arb years, than we should be in good shape. We should have plenty of money to supplement that core with FA signings that can account for those guys on this list who don’t pan out.

The flip side of that is that we might be in pretty bad shape if this is the actual lineup, and none of these system guys are actually any good. In that case though, they will be basically disposable and will not be a hindrance to other signings.

by Bradsbeard on Nov 10, 2010 12:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Why you have Marshall in the rotation and Cashner in the 'pen is beyond me

I think Cashner is in Iowa this year if he doesn’t make the rotation. I’d love to see this rotation for 2011

Z
Dempster
Wells
Gorzelanny/Silva
Cashner

Keep Cashner in Iowa and make him a starter

"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck

by Musicdude10 on Nov 10, 2010 12:17 PM CST reply actions  

Sorry to pop part of the bubble here

Soriano is under contract through the 2014 season. Per Cots, he’ll make $18MM or $19MM in 2014.

Dempster is a free agent after 2012.

Zambrano has a player vesting option – Zambrano receives 2013 player option if he is first or second in 2011 Cy Young vote or if he finishes in top 4 in 2012 Cy Young vote and is healthy at end of 2012

"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.

by RiskyBusiness on Nov 10, 2010 12:43 PM CST reply actions  

re:

It’s a good read, a good take. Leaving aside the fact that the chances of an entirely homegrown club are slim, which you’ve acknowledged, some other comments starting with

The pen – Dolis is intriguing, but until he shows a consistent slider, it’s really hard for me to envision him as a late inning arm right now. The slider shows plus potential, but it’s extremely inconsistent (and the fact that he was basically a one pitch guy (FB) probably explains why the Cubs kept him in the rotation all year, despite almost everyone believing that his future is in the pen – he needs a ton of work on the secondary options). Jay Jackson’s fastball has, in short spurts, gotten up to the mid-90’s, and his slider is better (albeit not great overall) than Dolis. I have my doubts that Jay would be relegated to long man duty if he is in the pen.

I also have my doubts that the Cubs will move Marshall back to the rotation. If they do it in 2011, then there’s a shot. It might be a bit early for Raley in 2013 as well. He’ll likely be in AA next year, so it’s not impossible, but he’s a fairly raw arm overall. Keep in mind that the Cubs are quite high on former OF/groundball pitcher Luke Sommer. James Russell was also quite effective against lefties last year and could still be in the mix.
______

I have my doubts that Ha will be ready in 2013. He’ll be in A+ next year. 2014 seems more realistic … and that is assuming that his developmental path is largely positive.

We’ll know about DJ early next year. He’ll be in the Cubs strengthening program this winter, and there are indications that they want to change his swing. He needs to add power to be able to be a corner IF (a lot of talk buzzing about him at 3rd, as some believe that to be his best position).

I think Alberto Cabrera is likely to be in the mix. He might be in AAA still, but a power arm with a good slider could fit into the pen. Also, all indications as of now are that Aaron Kurcz may get fast-tracked, and he may have the best one-two arsenal in the system (alas, no real change as of now to ponder any sort of conversion to the rotation … although he may get work as a starter in Daytona to work on his arsenal).

I’ll be surprised if, in 2013, the Cubs utilize Junior Lake as a utility guy. 2013 is a reasonable year for him to reach the bigs, although I’m looking more 2014 (wouldn’t surprise me to see him spend 2-3 years in AA/AAA). The Cubs are clearly trying to push Flaherty into that utility role, and coming off AFL, he’ll have a shot to gain that role, perhaps as soon as 2011, but more likely, 2012. A bench with Flaherty in that utility role seems more likely to me than one with Lake in the role.

I’ll also be mildly surprised if DeWitt is there in 2013. If Lake or Flaherty are on the roster, DeWitt’s value to the club diminishes IMO (unless you are projecting significant offensive development).

I’m also not sure it’s a lock that Lee is up by 2013, even mid-season. That’s a very positive scenario, but he’ll be in A+ in 2011. Unless he absolutely sets the world afire, or the AA guys completely collapse, it’s reasonable to expect that he may spend the majority of the season in A+, with maybe a cup of tea late. That puts him in AA to start 2012, assuming all goes well.

by toonsterwu on Nov 10, 2010 3:11 PM CST reply actions  

as a total side note, if i had to take some guesses on the start of 2013

I’d say

C – Within the organization – likely Soto and someone, but there’s enough backup catcher types in the upper levels.

1st – Likely not in org right now.

2nd – Likely not in org right. Cubs seem to prefer flaherty for a utility role, and they like LeMahieu at 3rd. Both will get opportunities to prove themselves. Lee’s timeline puts him as more a mid-season guy, unless he makes big leaps. Otherwise, he’s more 2014 as of now, IMO. Junior Lake is one possibility, as he will likely be in AA next year, but there’s a lot of offensive consistency work needed. A sleeper to watch may be Matt Cerda, but like Lee, 2014 is more realistic as of now, IMO.

SS – Castro

3rd – The 3rd base chart for the system is … intriguing. I know there are some that slowly believe that Marquez could be a starting 3rd baseman. I have my doubts, but I hope I’m wrong. Vitters 2011 will give us a clearer picture as to whether or not he can takeover at 3rd by 2013. He has to show progress, and I hope the Cubs keep him for most of the year in AA. The Cubs are working on strengthening DJ LeMahieu and adjusting his swing for more power. If the changes work, he could be an option at 3rd for 2013. Junior Lake is another possibility. that said … Vitters/LeMahieu/Lake have such big question marks (and Flaherty could go in that mix) surrounding them right now, that 3 years is no guarantee that anyone of them can develop into a capable starting 3rd baseman by 2013. Marquez could perhaps be used as a stopgap for a year.

If I had to take a guess right now, I’d say outside the org. I have a hard time seeing the club turn it over to say, Marquez Smith in 2012 (prove me wrong Marquez). Why does that matter? Well, after Aramis leaves , if they aren’t ready to turn it to Marquez, the chances are high that they’ll sign a FA, someone that will likely want perhaps a 2 year deal.

CF – Brett Jackson. Assuming he doesn’t struggle to start 2011, he’ll be given the chance to own the job sooner than later – perhaps as soon as 2011.

RF/LF – This one’s tough. I wouldn’t be surprised if they might go with say, 3 guys rotating between the two spots (Soriano being one of them), which might be another year for Colvin. By 2013, if Ricketts is willing to eat money, the Cubs might be willing to eat Soriano’s contract at that point. Realistically, my guess as of now would be one FA signing, probably in RF, and some sort of combination in the other spot. Keep in mind that Colvin will be in his arb years, so if his production is pedestrian, the idea that Colvin may not be here is something to ponder at that point.

Starting rotation – I have my doubts that Dempster will be here. Big fan of the guy, great leader for the clubhouse. Assuming he’s pitching well, he’ll likely want a multi-year deal … in his mid-30’s. I have my doubts Z will be back. I’ll surprise (at least I think I’ll surprise some) and guess that Randy Wells will still have a spot. He won’t be in FA just yet. I know there’s a lot of talk about how Wells has a tenuous hold, but I’ll still be a tad surprised, even if he’s high maintenance (something Bruce mentioned in his Wells blog post yesterday) if the Cubs let him go. He should still be a solid innings eating rotation arm.

As for the rest … it’s really hard to guess what the Cubs think on Cashner. He has the most starting upside of any young arm in the system, including McNutt and Archer, but it’s quite possible that he’s the closer in 2013. I think the Cubs will have added at least 2 veteran starters from outside the org by 2013. I’ll guess 2 young arms are filling rotation spots, and I’ll go, in perhaps another surprise, with Chris Rusin as one of them. Rusin’s a low ceiling arm, but he’s a lefty with a good arsenal and throws strikes. There’s a chance the Cubs may want a lefty in the rotation at that point. The other spot, my guess would be Archer.

The pen – My guess is that Marmol is gone. Unless I am not counting correctly, Marmol should be up for FA. It seems unlikely that the Cubs will buy out a FA year as of now. Do you keep him around at his age if he’s extremely expensive and you have intriguing enough pen options? It’s not impossible, but if I’m guessing right now, my hunch, as much as I hate it, is that Cashner will be the closer, with Carpenter/Jay Jackson perhaps in pen roles setting him up. The Cubs have enough upper level lefties that at least one pen lefty role should be from within. It’s possible they sign a vet or two to join those guys, although I’d be fine going internally to fill out the pen.

Just some guesses.

by toonsterwu on Nov 10, 2010 3:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I remember reading a post from a Cubs beat writer (Levine?)

saying the Cubs could start Lee in AA next year. Or maybe he said he could move up to AA. Would it be a dumb decision to do this?

"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
"My favorite food is Macaroni and Cheese, from the blue box." Geovany Soto
"They played like son of a guns......lord have mercy." Mike Quade

by Cubbiegoon on Nov 10, 2010 3:48 PM CST up reply actions  

IMO yes

he’s no where near ready, IMO, offensively AND defensively.

by toonsterwu on Nov 10, 2010 3:52 PM CST up reply actions  

oh wait i'm an idiot

sorry i misread that.

AA … I wouldn’t do it, but it wouldn’t be that dumb of a move. A bit hasty, but I wouldn’t necessarily call it dumb.

by toonsterwu on Nov 10, 2010 4:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Shuffling

yes you can make cases for some guys being in the pen or being SP. I do like Cabrera also forgot him. Basically this was really a rough draft of what we have today. And of coarse a team being all in house guys is unrealistic but knda fun to dream on things. More to the point I was really trying to make is basically if we stay outta the FA markett, at least for long term contracts and seeing how things will shake out we could have serious payroll and roster flexiability in 2013 and from that point make some moves via FA or trade to fill in what doesn;t pan out.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Nov 10, 2010 5:05 PM CST up reply actions  

As a side note

rec’d it because it’s always good to have a thread discussing the Cubs minor leagues here.

Bruce Miles has suggested that Cabrera and Smit may get protected.

by toonsterwu on Nov 10, 2010 9:37 PM CST up reply actions  

every time someone suggests making geo the 1b

the flying spaghetti monster kills a cute cuppy

He's my Hossa
HO-HO-HO-HO-HOSSA

by jesus christos on Nov 10, 2010 6:22 PM CST reply actions  

In a scenario where...

Lee is considered the better glove at SS is it possible that they move Starlin to 2B?

Does it depend on how good he is and how he’s been marketed?

by SenorGato on Nov 10, 2010 11:30 PM CST reply actions  

Also...

Cashner should start. He’s got the best upside there of anyone in the organization.

I have a positive intuitive feel about Hayden Simpson, and I think he’ll show up quick. I’m surprised to see how much of the young talent I like. I’m on the LeMahieu bandwagon too.

by SenorGato on Nov 10, 2010 11:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Cash

I would like Cashner to continue to start. Posting him as a releiver was just showing how deep we are on the pithcing side. Like I said some shuffling of roles for the pitchers would be expected. he just fit as I wrote it up no knock on him.

Yes I am really on the D.J. bandwagon. From what a friend said after watching him for a lot of the year and, seeing the video he sent me, I like the potential and I think he’s far passed Flaherty on the depth chart for me anyway. I really think he may add average power and he really puts good woood on the ball.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Nov 11, 2010 6:03 AM CST up reply actions  

I'd rather see Cashner stay in the setup role...

… UNLESS the Cubs can sign a suitable veteran replacement.

I think Chris Archer has more upside as a starter than Cashner.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 11, 2010 7:50 AM CST up reply actions  

why not have

BOTH in the starting roation? Archer is no where near Cashner. As a starter, Cashner dominated at higher levels and has a better fastball and breaking ball. And I am not knocking Archer who I also think the world of. I was okay to have Cashner ease into the big leagues as a reliever to limit his innings, but he should be getting stretched back out to start. I do not like how Hendry is handling this at all. He has #1/#2 upside which is far more valuable than a set up guy.

by socalbob on Nov 11, 2010 9:21 AM CST up reply actions  

Archer has dominated every level he's pitched at.

Cashner has, too, but not quite to the same extent. Cashner doesn’t have the pitch repertoire that Archer does. With his fastball, he can dominate an inning at a time. I don’t see him as having #1/#2 upside.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 11, 2010 10:26 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't think you know Cashner and his history very well

Archer can = Cashner when he dominates AA/AAA like Chasner did.

by socalbob on Nov 11, 2010 10:39 AM CST up reply actions  

I think Archer can and will be better than Cashner.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 11, 2010 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I think Archer can and will be better than Cashner.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 11, 2010 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

LOL

Damn browser burps.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 12, 2010 10:30 AM CST up reply actions  

We are all entitled to our opinion LOL

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Nov 12, 2010 5:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Sure looked like he had that upside when he toyed with AA/AAA hitters in his 9 starts.

Other than Strasburg, there may not have been a better starting pitcher in the minors during that time frame. He’s yet to fail as a starter at any level since being drafted, so why be content using him as a set-up man to Marmol the next couple years? At least wait until he struggles starting before making him a reliever permanently.

by Dcr18 on Nov 11, 2010 10:52 AM CST up reply actions  

Debatable.

But both were very successful. So why should Archer get a shot at being a big league starter and Cashner not? I’m not saying if Cashner starts than Archer should be a reliever, I think Chris has TOR potential. I hope believe should start. In a perfect world these two would both be in the big league rotation in 2011.

by Dcr18 on Nov 11, 2010 2:11 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Seriously?

Cashner would almost be guaranteed to get injured if he joined the Cubs rotation this season. He didn’t get anywhere near the amount of innings pitched in 2010 to even consider having him as part of the rotation in 2011. If they want him to be a starter, stretch him out in AAA, and monitor his IP and pitch counts.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Nov 11, 2010 3:04 PM CST up reply actions  

My mistake. I meant 2011.

And I agree, if they move him back to a starter, he should start at AAA and build arm strength.

by Dcr18 on Nov 11, 2010 5:11 PM CST up reply actions  

OK,

now that makes more sense.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Nov 11, 2010 6:02 PM CST up reply actions  

well, let's not let facts get in the way here

Cashner — .97 WHIP, 5.5 H/9, 3.2 BB/9, 10.5 K/9, 3.2 K/BB
Archer — 1.24 WHIP, 6.2 H/9, 5.0 BB/9, 8.6 K/9, 1.72 K/BB

I get how you could feel or think Archer will be better. But why can’t we develop starters before relievers. And based on the numbers, how exactly is Archer more dominant at AA last year? I believe Archer has big time ability, so why does one of these two have to go to the bullpen wihen they have proven to be dominant as starters? Why can’t we have a BIG 3 of Cashner, Archer, and McNutt? Why screw around with the Wells and Coleman’s of the world? The Giants & Phils aren’t the only teams who deserve to have 3 top end starters.

It would be a shame to turn Cashner into Guillermo Mota instead of Tim Lincecum.

by socalbob on Nov 11, 2010 5:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly.

And if any of those three fail as starters, then we can try them as relievers.

by Dcr18 on Nov 11, 2010 5:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Key part of what you just wrote:

9 starts.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Nov 11, 2010 3:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Couple things here

No Archer has not dominated every level he’s pitched at please see 06, 07, 08 and only after returning to low A ball for a 2nd go around did he post a nice season in 09. Looking into his numbers closer, his peripherals are basicallly a carbon copy of 09 with better more wins yes and a slightly lower ERA. While he posted a great season in 10 he still has serious control issues. Posting a 5 BB/9 is not gonna cut it in the ML.

In terms of pure stuff Cashner has a better FB and better SL. Archers velo went up sure but his SL ranges from average to plus and is inconsistent. This isn’t just my opinion this is what I’ve been reading from scouts and ppl who saw him pitch. While it’s probably unlikely Cashner has the stuff to be an ace while most ppl (and by most ppl I mean scouts) agree that Archer ceiling is that of a #2 and if he never gets the control down he’s more of a 3/4 or power bullpen arm.

Coming into this year I gave Cashner 0 chance to start but he made real strides this year. Improved CU, control, and carrying his velo later into games. Had the Cubs allowed Cashner to start all year we would really have a better feel for where he is at. OBTW he was posting every bit the season Archer was before he got called up. I like Archer and hope he will start but he still has some real strides that need to be made.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Nov 12, 2010 5:53 AM CST up reply actions  

FWIW

i think McNutt will be better then both.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Nov 12, 2010 5:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Lee

You know I was under the thinking that Lee could move Castro to 2B also but after reading a lot of what has been written by scouts combined with what I saw from Castro in the ML it looks more realistic that Lee would be the 1 to move. I know Castro had a lot of E’s but I saw him make some real tough plays. Figure the kids just 20 and defense usually requires repetition to get better.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Nov 11, 2010 6:00 AM CST up reply actions  

Write this down..

That will 100% not be anywhere close to what we will look like in 2013…lets just focus on 2011. Made me sick to my stomach watching TBS put up the championship drought stats and seeing that wretched number for our beloved Cubs. Time to grow a pair and look forward to the future transactions this winter and getting back to biz in 11.

" The reason I am here, they tell me, is that I played the game a certain way, that I played the game the way it was supposed to be played."- Ryne Sandburg's Hall of Fame speech

by Sandburg23 on Nov 11, 2010 5:25 PM CST reply actions  

From what we've seen

from Ricketts with respect to investing in the on the field product. an entirelely home-grown 2013 roster doesn’t seem as far-fetched as it used to.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Nov 12, 2010 10:21 AM CST reply actions  

Agree

Unless he can get some of that amusement tax to subsidize payroll. Instead of the Red Sox philosophy it appears that the Ricketts ascribe to the Jeffrey Loria-Florida Marlins school of baseball management.

by JSB on Nov 12, 2010 4:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Has anyone thought about

Either Vitters or Flaherty at 1B?
I know they had Vitters at first for AFL, but what Flaherty lacks in mobility as a 2B/3B/Utility player, he could refine as a 1B.
Not saying he would be a great 1B, but if he improves his defense, he could be a poor mans version of Mark Grace.
Having said that, I’ll takes someone with Grace’s OBP and good D at first anyday over a power hitting first baseman, and even moreso if you’re looking at removing an All Star caliber catcher from his natural position.

by chrisw95 on Nov 13, 2010 3:04 PM CST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Bleed Cubbie Blue, the Chicago Cubs blog for the SB Nation, created on February 9, 2005 by Al Yellon

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Maybe it's time to take a deep breath

Recent FanPosts

Seinfeld_jerk_store_black_shirt_small
Cubs pitching problems answered!
Zambrano_background_2_small
What is the most likely move in June regarding current players?
Small
Draft Prep: Pierce Johnson
Small
Trying to be positive (need some help)
Small
Soriano back to Second?
Small
Javier Baez Peoria Bound?
Small
Draft Prep: Conference Tournament Version
Despite-an-inflated-babip-lahair-is-no-one-month-wonder
Suddenly, I feel your pain
Small
Start of the LaHair Regression?

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Former MLB PItcher Bob Ojeda On Pitching And Pain
Wrigley Field Supporters Propose Tearing Down Rest Of Chicago
Doug Glanville On His Teammate, Kerry Wood
Thanks.
Samardzija takes a dig at Hawk Harrelson

Recent FanShots

Baez to Peoria
2012 Stars and Stripes Hat
Sveum moves Castro back to #2 spot
OT: Tyler Colvin bats 2nd
The Pittsburgh Pirates Offensive Catastrophe
Roy Halladay Bobblehead Fail
Full sized image
All The Topps Baseball Card Cubs, 1951 - 2012

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

Featured Poll

Poll
Should the National League adopt the designated hitter rule?

  984 votes | Results

Cubs By The Numbers

Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.

Click here to order your copy, available now!

Recent Stories in Chicago Cubs Game Threads

Yahoo_full_count

Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges


Managing Editor

Alyellontoppscard_small Al Yellon

Front Page Contributors

Profile_small Josh Timmers

B_w_avatar_small Brett Taylor

Marvin_the_martian_small Shawn Domagal-Goldman

Other Contributors

Toonmike_small Mike Bojanowski

Dsc_0139_small David Sameshima