Update on 30 for 30 Bartman doc
by Worf on Nov 10, 2010 3:06 PM CST
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It's probably old news that the 30 for 30 Bartman doc got pushed back until spring. But I just listened to the Bill SImmons podcast where he discussed the latest episode "The Best that Never Was"
He said the Bartman documentary will be one of the very best of the series and the director wanted a little more time with it, to do a couple more interviews. He also said they have 10 minutes of footage of the event itself, with fan videos and cell phone cameras, showing the event itself and the aftermath.
Simmons called it 'Maybe the best 10 minutes of any sports documentary"
So, there's that.
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I'm really excited for this
Whether the moment influenced the game or not, nobody can say that they wouldn’t have done the same thing. I hope the documentary sheds light on that and shows some sympathy for the man. He essentially got run out of town for being a baseball fan.
Bill Simmons knows his stuff (well…at least for basketball) and if he says it’s good I believe him.
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Bill Simmons can toss off as far as I'm concerned
But, I’ll watch this doc – when it’s ever released – and relish it because I know I’m not alone in believing that it was a truly magical season worth reliving.
Any Cub fan with a pair of eyes….or even just one eye….or even completely blind who listened to Pat Hughes… knows that Alex Gonzalez boots a double play ball he’s turned a thousand times in his life.
I’ve long since forgotten who Steve Bartman is and I am repulsed by the notion that any rational person would hold him accountable for anything.
WWOZ.org - New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Station
by Gibbon Jockey on Nov 10, 2010 7:01 PM CST up reply actions
Sadly people do
Just as they think we should have kept Josh Hamilton
If you REALLY want to break it down, yes, Bartman’s play did take the life out of the field. But the players should have rallied around that and realized they were five flippin outs from the world series. Dusty should have come out and either called for whoever was warming up or calmed down Prior. Prior should have thrown pitches that didn’t end up on Waveland. Wood should have won game 7. It’s not his fault. I’d welcome him back to Chicago
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Alex Gonzalez should have turned the double play.
And directly to what you mentioned and I failed to…
Wood should have won game 7.
End of story.
WWOZ.org - New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Station
by Gibbon Jockey on Nov 10, 2010 11:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Postlude: Dusty should've gone out to settle down Prior.
Maybe it wouldn’t have worked – but he should’ve tried.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
by daver on Nov 11, 2010 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That was Dusty's biggest failure as Cubs manager.
The one time when he really needed to lead, he failed.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Dusty should have also taken Prior out of game two way way way
earlier than he did. Cubs were winning like 8-0 in the third. Prior threw way too many pitches in that game and was actually taken off the mound when he tired with an 8 or 9 run lead if memory serves. Would have had more in the tank for game six.
My memory is fine. I am talking about game two, not game six.
If Dusty hadn’t pitched Prior so long with a huge lead in game two, he would have had more stamina for game six. Prior threw 116 pitches in a game he was leading 11-0 at the end of five innings. He was still pitching in the 8th when, obviously out of gas, Dusty finally came out to get him. Completely insane. Horrid managing.
then Wood
could have went on to win game 1
by hansman1982 on Nov 11, 2010 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
damned right he should have
But Noooooooo, he had to sit there and enjoy the peppermint toothpick.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Nov 11, 2010 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
I don't agree with that
Prior was fine and induced an inning-ending double play ball that Gonzalez kicked. After that error is when things snowballed and got out of hand. But I do not agree that anything needed to be done after the Bartman play. If Prior threw 8 straight balls afterwards, okay, I’d buy that argument. I think this is plain Dusty hatred coming after the fact.
I know many disagree. It’s cool, dudes (as I put my toothpick back in my mouth).
Well, maybe Dusty should've gone out...
…after the Gonzo boot then. This was playoff baseball, after all, and it seems like he should’ve been more actively involved — especially with a pitcher as young as Prior.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Either time would have been fine
We were still in the lead before and after both events took place. Not too late to salvage the situation.
hindsight is 20/20
maybe he could have gone out there. Let me ask—doesn’t a manager look like he’s the one panicking if he is running onto the field to coddle his pitcher when something goes wrong? If you look at it being removed from the fan base, we had our best pitcher on the bump, he just got a groundball that was booted, and still had great velocity. So it’s easy to sit there and say “go get ’em Mark!” believing he would get another groundball, a K, and/or a pop out to end the damage. I really don’t think Prior was rattled, so who would Dusty be going to the mound for? The fans?
If the argument is he should have gone out there to pull Prior from the game, well that’s a different argument and it might be more difficult to argue against that one.
I'd really have to go back and review the game tape...
…to be sure (and I ain’t doin’ that). But it would seem Prior was rattled considering neither he nor anyone from that team’s wretched bullpen could get a Marlin batter out from that point on. (← Hyperbole.) And I don’t think a manager going out after unusual plays like that is a sign of panic — again, especially in the postseason. If anything, it’s just a way to give everyone a breather for a few minutes to reset their focus.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
I think the thesis of the doc was
“Can Bartman forgive Chicago?”
So yes, I think it sheds him in a nice light.
"It's all in the game, yo"
I'm not starting an argument, but that conflict is the problem for me...
I don’t care what light Bartman is shown in, I’m just tired of subjecting that man to any light.
I guess I’m looking at this all wrong.
Maybe Cubs fans need to be called out and taken to task for their irrational stupidity regarding this incident….and maybe this is the best way to do it.
I guess I internalize it because nobody I know of thinks Bartman had anything to do with that collapse, but I’ve been wrong before. And as was mentioned earlier, maybe there are way more people out there than me who still hold the fan in poor standing. Perhaps this documentary will show those jackholes to be the morons they are, in which case I should be celebrating this thing.
Generally, though, I’m just tired of rehashing the entire wornout drama.
WWOZ.org - New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Station
by Gibbon Jockey on Nov 10, 2010 11:55 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I think "we" collectively as fans
deserve whatever we get. Far as I’m concerned, Bartman deserves to get on camera and say, “BITE ME, CHICAGO”
And more than the fans, the media. The Sun-Times was absolutely disgusting. Michael Wilbon, who I generally like, would have been an accessory had someone actually done harm to Bartman. His incitement of violence was reprehensible.
I’ve said it a milion times. I wish Bartman would do every interview asked of him. I wish he would sign autographs of the play for $10 a pop. I wish he would do Celebrity Boxing with Jared the Subway Guy. He destroys every last Chicago fan with his dignified silence.
I’m in it for the team at this point. I couldn’t give a damn if the fans are hapy.
"It's all in the game, yo"
worse than the fans
the media that printed him home information should be called out further. these morons should be in the documentary and forced to answer questions from Bartman about why they were willing to put his safety and privacy in jeopardy.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
I want Michael Wilbon to someday actually be asked why
he tried to instigate a lynching.
Wilbon used to be great, but now he’s just a joke. If there is an unkissed superstar ass in the NBA, it’s only because Wilbon is stuck in traffic.
"It's all in the game, yo"
The Best That Never Was
The story of Marcus DuPree is a sad one. There were some that said he was going to be better than Herschel Walker. I didn’t know that he actually played in the NFL with the Rams.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
I wonder if Simmons
would feel the same way if Bartman did this in Fenway wearing a Sox cap?
Dupree story was sad. Talent wasted, and money stolen.
this is exactly the type of thing Simmons railed against pre-2004
Before the Sawks won the Series he moaned about people focusing on curses and Buckner.
btw…no Boston team has won a championship since this documentary was announced.
Last I heard from the director, who I know...
… I was still in the final cut. He said he couldn’t promise anything, though.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Length of film
Last I heard it’s going to be 90 minutes on ESPN instead of the original 60. As of a date of premier, nothing set in stone.
Jack Brickhouse: "Hey! Hey!"
Harry Caray: "Holy Cow!"
Vince Lloyd: "The Chicago Cubs are on the Air!"
Len Casper: "Oh Baby!"
Bob Brenly: "Give it to a Kid!"
Ron Santo: "YES!", "All Right!, let's do it!", "Oh No!", "Oh jeez come on!" AND...
"This Is The Year!"
by #1 iowan cubs fan on Nov 10, 2010 9:23 PM CST reply actions
Let's keep giving other fan bases more reason to ridicule the Cubs...
this needs to go away…FOREVER!!. The “Laughable Losers”…the “Scrubs”…the “Flubs”…are we just gluttons for punishment? It was over 7 years ago already….sheesh!! Maybe they’ll have a prequel about the goat, later down the line?
"I don't care who the manager is OR who they sign in the off-season...I want a frickin' World Series winner" - Easy Ed
It'll never go away
Like a friend who happens to be a ChiSox fans tells me, “it’s not that they lose it’s how they lose”. He is never mean-spirited about this and I can honestly say he’s being sincere in his viewpoint. He has absolutely no connection to the Cubs so he can view the teams’ situation without any bias.
After the “1945 goat” and “1969 cat” as he puts it, the last thing the Cubs needed was a fan being part of the lore. He did have an interesting take on the “homer in the gloamin”. For those believing in curses, he thought for instance, could the way the Cubs won that game set them up for losses in years to come? Neither of us believe that but it is interesting none the less.
While he believes this issue will never go away completely, he does state – like many of us here do – that it’ll go down significantly after a WS win.
But to the point, documentaries like this do nothing more than open old wounds. I mean come on what exactly is going to be shown or discussed that we already knew happened? A specific cell phone camera illustrating some fans under diress? Who cares. We all know what happened. I watched that game unfold to total dismay just like I did game 7 of the 1971 Stanley Cup Finals at Chicago Stadium.
It’s crap like this documentary that further enables outlets like Fox to show Cubbie failure come playoff time. Push, push, push, push….just keep pushing the issue. It’s what sells so it will likely never go away.
Didn’t a few folks here mention that at just this past post season there were short video clips of a Cubs demise? I’m asking for real, I missed most of the playoffs this post season. Do Cubs fans have to be reminded? Do we? It’s bad enough we’re at year 103 with not a lot of optimism for the next couple seasons. What’s next? A high-res re-make of the black cat at Shea with Ronnie on deck? How about a comic-relief of the goat in 1945 as WWII had just come to an end?
This is the shit that fuels the Scrubs and Flubs crap. If the significant majority of OUR fan base would just IGNORE this shit, it will finally diminish. But every year it seems, this keeps coming up. One failure or another. If we don’t let this crap die down, others certainly will not.
And unfortunately, IMO only it will take multiple WS titles in a short time frame to make others: STFU !!
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Nov 11, 2010 6:56 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
One World Series will do it.
Red Sox fans had to hear about “the curse of the Bambino” for years — and that had been invented by a sportswriter.
Our fanbase ignoring it won’t make the lazy national media stop doing it. Only winning will. And I think it will only take one time to do it.
Please, let it be soon.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
As much as most Cubs would like to ignore this
many, many other sports fans will be happy to watch this. Not just baseball fans. I found myself watch the “The Two Escobars” episode of 30 for 30. For Columbian soccer fans, that show may bring back some unpleasant memories. But I never considered that as I watched it. It was just a quality show on an interesting topic.
I’m sure other people may find the SB episode entertaining as well. And that’s why ESPN is doing the story.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Nov 11, 2010 8:42 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Still don't think it'll go away completely. I'd compare it to Buckner in Boston.
He’s much less hated in that town now that they’ve won something. Until then he was the unfortunate poster child for Red Sox misery. They still talk about the play now, but much less frequently, and with a lot less venom.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
the curse of the Bambino is just as accurate as the goat curse
which if full of junk built up by the media as well.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Simmons dissected that brilliantly
He said no one had heard of the “Curse” until 1990, when Shaughnessy put it together in a book. And as he points out, why would Babe Ruth curse the Red Sox??? Trading him to the Yankees was the best thing for him professionally and personally.
"It's all in the game, yo"
With you Blackhawk
Even though I might watch to see the commentary.
It gets real old when you meet people and talk baseball and you mention the fact that your a Cub fan, and the first comment is Bartman and failure.
Question: is Bartman going to be part of this? A interview with voice distortion and a black pillow case over his face?
No participation from Bartman
I have a family friend who has acted as his media liason, and he tells me that he isnt participating.
Wherever you go, there you are!
by Dan Serafini on Nov 11, 2010 4:29 PM CST up reply actions
Good for him
No need to reopen himself to the crap people put him through.
"A good cigar is like a beautiful chick with a great body who also knows the American League box scores." Corporal Maxwell Q. Klinger
I didn't post on the "Undercover Boss"
thread with Todd Ricketts, but this is exactly how I felt about that disgrace. This type of stuff just perpetuates the long line of abuse we get as fans. Can you ever imagine Theo Epstein donning a fake beard and glasses with an employee name badge of “Cy Williams” and pouring Wicked Pisser Ale and Chowder at Fenway?
Why can’t we just focus on the game instead of all this silly stuff? Had Gonzalez turned the DP, Bartman would have never been outed and gone through this terrible bashing over the years.
Actually, Theo Epstein put on a gorilla suit
in 2005 on Halloween to sneak out of the Red Sox offices a few years back. He had announced his resignation earlier in the day.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Nov 11, 2010 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
On top of all the other nonsense that surrounds the Cubs is the outsiders who ask...
“Can Bartman ever forgive Cubs fans?” Let’s say you were walking your dog along the curb when some poor jerk on his cellphone drives up, jumps the curb, and runs over the little guy. Or, more to the point, he not only runs over your dog – he hits you too. Three days later, as one of your kids drives you home from the hospital, she asks, “Dad, do you think you can ever forgive the guy?” You reply, “It might take awhile.”
Then, seven years later, some of your neighbors get together to suggest you throw a party in the driver’s honor – you know, just to clear the air and show what a sport you are. “Can Bartman ever forgive Cubs fans?” Please, don’t make me laugh.
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
Sad, but true.
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
Seems like you are part of the problem
as you seem to still blame Bartman.
Wherever you go, there you are!
by Dan Serafini on Nov 11, 2010 4:27 PM CST up reply actions
His reflexive but thoughtless action played a critical – if not pivotal – role in the collapse...
But, as I said elsewhere on this thread, I can’t believe anyone wishes him anything but the best seven years after the debacle. He has paid a price way out of proportion to his accidental impact on the Cubs drive to a pennant, and I hope he will one day get to tell his story for fun and profit.
What galls me is anyone asking “Can Bartman ever forgive Chicago?” It’s not Steve’s place to be forgiving anyone for their immediate and completely understandable reaction to this event. Cubs fans were the injured party here, and I sincerely believe they forgave Bartman seven years ago.
Now if were talking about forgiving Dusty, AGon, Farnsy, et al – that’s a different story.
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
No, Bartman was the injured party
His address was printed. A respected ESPN TV personality called for him to be beaten, repeatedly.
We all owe Bartman an apology.
"It's all in the game, yo"
Like you said below to ernaga
that he has no right to complain so too do you have no right to state everyone owes the kid an apology.
Its too bad all of it came down to this. But he went for a ball. Who knew what would have transpired. But for you or anyone else to say, “we all owe Bartman an apology” is just as ludicrous as those calling for the kids head in the immediate aftermath.
Just win the next game...!
"We" don't necessarily owe him an apology.
The Sun-Times does, for printing his name.
Whoever printed his address does.
The ESPN person who called for him to be beaten certainly does.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Correct--
Especially in light of how things played out in just 10-15 minutes following the incident.
It’s blanket statements that simply do not apply.
IMO only I am not going to apologize to anyone who willingly interferes in the game. I would be less peeved if the Cubs just went out and gave up 8-in-the-8th. Still sucks swamp water but at least it would have exclusively happened between the lines.
As my buddy said, “it’s not that they lose, it’s how they lose”.
Just win the next game...!
Not for nothing...
but it was never interference. That ball was in the fans’ territory.
And Alou, in his wildest dream, doesn’t make that catch.
"It's all in the game, yo"
Agreed...Alou's reaction to the play was the instigation to ALL the aftermath...
…Bartman handled the onslaught ALOT better than I would’ve. ESPN would’ve ponied up some serious cash for conspiring violence, for one. Cubs need to STOP any and ALL stories on this incident. I know they can’t do that TOTALLY, but, they can stop participating in them.
"I don't care who the manager is OR who they sign in the off-season...I want a frickin' World Series winner" - Easy Ed
another huge problem was that Fox continued to show Bartman
for the rest of the game. In hindsight, he would have been better served by getting out of there. But he correctly felt that he had done no wrong, he had a great seat to a big game, and hoped for the comeback. The replay of the foul ball didnt show his face very well. But when the game got out of hand, Fox repeatedly showed Bartman’s face, and that sealed his fate. Yes, the Wrigley fans treated him like crap for 30 minutes, but if his face wasnt all over the TV, he could have left the park, shook off this nightmare night, and gone on with his life. But instead, Fox made sure his face was shown repeatedly, he was spotted, identified by the Sun Times, etc.. In my opinion, Fox Sports has alot of blood on their hands
by holy mackeral on Nov 12, 2010 2:15 PM CST up reply actions
OK, not technically interference
But if you think Alou had no chance, you’re way off. Glove witiin a foot directly below and above the wall. Would he have? I’d say he would. Would he have dropped it? Perhaps. But it would have been nice for him to have a chance.
Just win the next game...!
Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich suggested that Bartman join a witness protection program
but I think we have already established that Blago was a jerk, right?
by holy mackeral on Nov 12, 2010 2:06 PM CST up reply actions
The AGon error was "the fruit of a poisonous vine" that grew like kudzu the moment that poor jerk in the stands stuck his hands out...
In the immortal words of Mike Redmond, spoken in the Marlins’ dugout as Alou picked up his glove and cursed the fans, “Let’s make that kid famous.”
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
If an attractive woman had winked at AGon and it caused him to lose his composure doing what he's paid millions of dollars to do
Would you still hate her 7 years later? Or would you be able to accept that the players play with 40,000 distractions around them every day and should be able to focus on the task at hand?
That sounds like the Mets OF'er
in MIB who was watching the spaceship having taken off instead of the ball and it konked him in the noggin. That was funny.
In this case, the hot lady didn’t touch a baseball in play. But then that would be amazing. An attractive woman winks at Moises, then he drops it.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Nov 11, 2010 12:43 PM CST up reply actions
The hot lady should have known she was potentially interfering with a Cubs player though!
If people still want to hate on Bartman, go for it. I can’t change your minds. But let’s not make excuses for the miserable play of the team after that took place. These people are paid more than most of us can imagine to perform under pressure. Whether its in the form of a heckling crowd, a bad call by an ump, a hot chick in the stands, or a group of fans who were trying to catch a foul ball.
Let’s stop making excuses for them – had the Bartman thing not happened, we might have gone to the World Series with a weak-minded team. Or something else might have gone wrong (it was only a 3-run lead, after all) and we would be angry about that for years to come instead. The common denominator in both situations would be the team that collapsed under the pressure of the moment.
The thing is, I don't believe any Cubs fan "hates" Bartman...
…It could have been any one of us making the same stupid mistake that he and others did in reaching for that ball without paying attention to the play in progress.
I’m reasonably sure we all wish him nothing but the best, and if he decides to take up Worf’s suggestion and go out on tour, I may even buy a ticket to hear him describe what it means to be a Cubs fan.
But for anybody to imply that Chicago fans, in the immediate aftermath of Game 6, had no right to be outraged by Bartman’s thoughtlessness is to display an ignorance of fan loyalty and sports addiction.
There is a tragicomic irony in the whole debacle, especially if B., like a poor man’s George Costanza, had those earphones on just to share in Ronnie’s elation on WGN. But that’s something for us, as Cubs fans, to ponder and smile about whenever some producer from New York, Boston, or LA decides to scratch the wound. Just don’t tell us we had no right to complain about the crucial interference on the night of Game 6.
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
by ernaga on Nov 11, 2010 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
It's part of the lore
People remember things like that. Mention the botched double play and you get an, “Oh yeah.” Mention Steve Bartman’s name and people know what you’re talking about. It’s sad, but true. The Cubs have not only been unfortunate in finding ways to lose on the field, but all this extra crap just piles on top of it. Do I think Alou could have caught the ball? Sure. In my heart, I believe that. Do I think Gonzalez should have been able to turn that double play? A thousand times yes.
The Bartman incident only seems to magnify the failed double play and the ensuing collapse in Game 6 and the loss in Game 7. Stuff like this writes articles all by itself. You can’t make this stuff up. It’s gold for writers to talk about the curse. Stuff like that just gives it weight. One possibility we often fail to ignore is that the Cubs still could have lost that series even if Alou caught that ball.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Free BLou
I'll let you complain
So long as you complain about the botched double play, Prior losing his composure, and Dusty failing to do anything about it first. Real winners would have stepped up the meet the challenge of the moment. Our team cowered and we lost and our fans want to make excuses for them the entire way.
Add in Alou's temper tantrum at #4 on that list before you can complain about Bartman
Since IMO the whole thing would have been fine had he simply turned around and jogged back to his position ready to make the next out. Remember, these guys are all paid millions of dollars to perform in the biggest moment – Steve Bartman was not.
It begins and ends with Dusty for me
Alou’s temper tantrum was horrible and indicative of just how overrated and stupid a player he was. Alou’s entire tenure here infuriated me. He was the stupidest baserunner — for an alleged good player — I’ve ever seen.
BUT… it should have been a 10-second thing. It was Dusty’s job to manage those idiots and get them calmed down.
"It's all in the game, yo"
by Worf on Nov 12, 2010 10:11 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
disagree Worf
they were calm. Prior got a double-play grounder right after that where a sure handed shortstop all of a sudden grew cymbal hands and clanked it. Prior then missed spots and the Marlins stepped up swinging the bats. How is that the manager’s fault? When does the accountability fall on the players? Dusty coming out to the mound changes none of that. This isn’t tee ball when you need to hold their hands every play. These are million dollar plus athletes. Go read quotes from Sparky Anderson—players make the manager, not vice-versa. I agree with him. Our players were not good enough and choked like dogs in Game 6 and 7.
I know many disagree and that’s fine.
I'll believe to my dying day
that Alou’s tantrum and Gonzalez error were connected and Prior lost it after that error.
I do agree that Prior got a great ground ball after that. Maybe he wasn’t the problem in the beginning, but he lost it after.
Whatever else Prior has been to the Cubs — phenom, disappointment, bust, employee — let us not forget that he was a 22-year-old kid that year.
But a mound visit does more than just calm the pitcher. It can calm the team.
Maybe Dusty couldn’t have righted the ship. I’ll agree that’s possible.
But to not even try??? Unacceptable.
"It's all in the game, yo"
by Worf on Nov 12, 2010 11:52 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
question for you
do you think Dusty actually saw Alou from his position at the front of the dugout? I’d have to go back and look at it, but he may not have even known he was going off on the play.
Maybe not.
But replays clearly showed Prior pointing in that direction. If Dusty didn’t see that — and realize his pitcher was rattled — he really was clueless.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
agreed but i have one question
anyone remember if Dusty had visited the mound prior in the game, and would have had to yank him? And if that is the case, then he should have sent Rothchild out to talk to him
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
are he inlies the tragedy
had the Bartman thing not happened, we might have gone to the World Series
I would have preferred seeing them being blown out from inning 1 and absolutely nothing to do with the fans than what really happened.
Like my buddy said, "it’s not that they lose it’s how they lose".
Just win the next game...!
They lose or they win
that’s the bottom line.
I find it ridiculous that your ChiSox buddy…whose team for years embraced “Winnin’ Ugly” as a theme is somehow all of a sudden taking notes on how a team performs.
It’s got nothing to do with ugly…it’s got everything to do with WIN.
The Sox and Cubs been LOSING ugly for a whole lot of seasons…
WWOZ.org - New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Station
by Gibbon Jockey on Nov 11, 2010 6:25 PM CST up reply actions
No, his references cited
are mainly outside the lines and not that of the game strategy – if there is such a thing as winning ugly, which by the way he thought was just a stupid marketing gimmick – such as the goat, cat & bartman.
Just win the next game...!
wow...
cant wait to relive that collapse. I would rather watch Cutler throw interceptions than see that tragedy again. But who am i kidding, Im a Cubs fan..I’ll watch it while crying in my Old Style
" The reason I am here, they tell me, is that I played the game a certain way, that I played the game the way it was supposed to be played."- Ryne Sandburg's Hall of Fame speech
Another stupid milking of the curse ouevre .. why any Cubs fan pays attention to this drivel is beyond me
Somehow a 100+ year anniversary isn’t sexy enough for the pundits and the media elites who still want to cash in on the epic failure of the Cubs. So a suitable victim is provided from the constellation of Cubs tragicomedy and of course, who do they pick?
The producer of this shtick has to be some kind of social engineering consultant, wanting to Explain It somehow, seeking an explanation about the ugliness of human nature. Instead, I think its blatant exploitation behind some faux documentary crap about how savage the misguided passion of stupid Cubs fans can be, elegantly wringing hands with lost footage and reveries from eyewitnesses.
Watch it you want. No Cubs fan needs to give a rat’s rear end about this or give it the time of day. We all know what happened and Steve Bartman doesn’t owe us beans. The only debt here is that of the 2003 Cubs .. a debt that will never be paid off. Let’s just leave it alone. Let it smell in whatever media corner it ends up with.
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
When I was asked to be part of this project...
… at first I said no for many of those exact reasons.
And then I thought, maybe I can get that point across and it could be part of the show. I think I did — who knows whether that part will be edited out, but at least I tried.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Interesting words...
The producer of this shtick has to be some kind of social engineering consultant…
Just win the next game...!
Cubs losing
There’s a cottage industry around the cubs not winning in 102 years.
IF they win it all the industry would be gone.
Formerly known as cubstoseriesby100. Thanks Al for letting me change my outdated screenname.
by puckishcubsfan on Nov 13, 2010 6:43 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
DANG straight bro -- + 1000000 BCB points to ya
Al, what can he get when he cashes them in?
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
Great Seasons
Why won’t MLB or the Cubs release DVDs that go into great detail about some of the great seasons the team had?
They released a set a few years ago that had great games with players like Dawson, Sosa, Grace, Lee, Maddux, Sutcliffe… etc…
Why can’t we have a set that is dedicated to 1984? It could have a dvd talking about the season, interviewing players, etc…. then have some of the great games from the season. Like the Sandberg game, the clincher, etc
I would love to have a set dedicated to 84, 89, and ’03.
MLB is always looking for ways to make more money… there you go!
I'll be watching
a tivo’d episode of Top Gear.
Don’t need to be reminded of that shit again and again and again.
I can't wait until this baby comes out.
Just look at the strong responses and critiques of it before it has even been show! Also, why do the people who keep saying we should forget about it keep posting about it? Try taking your own advice next time and don’t think of an elephant while you’re at it.
As far as Bartman goes, I think free, life-long season tickets might even the score. That and maybe a new Bose radio.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Nov 12, 2010 10:20 PM CST reply actions
My plan
My plan is to DVR it and see what people are saying and decide to watch it at that point.
Do you think we’ll have a live discussio during show?
Formerly known as cubstoseriesby100. Thanks Al for letting me change my outdated screenname.
Context is important here
I think what many people are missing is the context in which the 30 for 30 Bartman documentary will air. The 30 for 30 just documentaries dig deeper than just video footage and player interviews. They attempt to understand the event in the context of country/city and the time period that it occurred. I think they try to draw out more than just the box score and fan reaction to the sporting event in question.
Did I want to see Fox Sports rerun Bartman footage during the playoffs? No, because the footage had no relationship to the playoffs this year.
Did I like the Bartman/Nomar/Goat music video? No, it was just poor taste at the expense of others.
I think I will be interested in seeing the deeper story that the documentary tries to tell. I may not agree with the all the points of the show because I’m closer to this event than other 30 for 30 shows. But I found The Two Escobars show to be very informative about a period, country, and culture that I did not know much about.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
ONe thing for sure....
I do not think we will ever hear any mention of Bartman, the goat, black cat , or the curse on ESPN’s Sunday night baseball ever again . That has to be some progress.
You realize...
that Dan Schulman (heir apparent to Jon Miller) was calling play-by-play with Dave Campbell for ESPN radio on that fateful night. He was there. It may well come up.
They replay that sequence from time-to-time during ESPN rain delays. To his credit, Schulman was spot on throughout, without the hyperbolic commentary of the FOX crew.
Because Miller and Morgan are gone?
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
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