V-Mart signs with Tigers
This could have fallout for the Cubs. The Tigers had been connected to guys (notably Adam Dunn) who have been and might continue to be on the Cubs' radar. Even if Dunn is off the table (sounds like he is) the number of destinations for middle-order guys who play first got smaller today.
over 1 year ago
elgato
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True.
That’s a good move for the Tigers.
I heard the Tigers aren’t going to offer arb to any of their own free agents, including Magglio Ordonez. Think Magglio might sign to be a platoon RF? Yes, I know he wants fulltime play, but what if there isn’t any?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Reminds me too much of Nady.
The Cubs signed Nady figuring that he could platoon with Kosuke and be Soriano insurance (this was after Soriano’s terrible 2009). When Soriano had a good first half and with the emergence of Colvin, Nady sat on the bench largely until Lee was traded.
I’ve always liked Ordonez, but I don’t see the point signing him, given the likely cost and his likely role on the Cubs. That could change if something interesting happened or if he could be had at a significant discount.
By 'interesting' ...
I mean if Kosuke or Colvin were traded, for example.
Yeah, Maggs would seem to be Nady redux in some respects.
And Ordonez will be 37 on Opening Day, which brings added risk. Then again, there’s always the Jim Edmonds factor. I guess I’d agree that if Kosuke is traded (seriously doubt Colvin will be), rolling with a Colvin/Maggs right field would be, er, interesting. Well, I dunno…Maggs’ career UZR numbers are pretty awful. I don’t believe he’s considered a good defender. I think I’d rather just see a full season of Tyler.
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The Edmonds comparison doesn't really work.
Edmonds was signed at near league minimum AND the Cubs had a hole in centerfield. Maggs (presumably) would need more money, and we already have too many overpriced options in the outfield corners.
And at least Nady could play some first base. I don’t know if Maggs can.
I just meant an aging player who has an unexpectedly productive season.
And we had Reed Johnson — we just needed a platoon partner for him. You could say the same thing about Kosuke, though having the young Tyler Colvin hangin’ around complicates matters.
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Yeah, but Reed couldn't hit righties all that well.
And getting a lefty bat, like Edmonds, is more important because he’ll play more. Nady as a platoon guy might play a game or two a week.
Maggs has never played 1B.
So I’d only do it at a reasonable cost (say, about what Nady got). A lot of guys like that may overprice themselves and find themselves where Jermaine Dye was last year.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Given the scarcity of money ...
I wouldn’t spend $3 million on Maggs. I agree with Daver — let Colvin play right every day.
Yabbut
… you’ll have to do something with Fukudome first.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Not necessarily.
As noted before, there really are enough ABs for “four” OFs (per 10 games: Sori 7-8 starts in LF, Byrd 8 in CF, Dome 7 in RF, Colvin 2-3 in LF, 2 in CF, 3 in RF = 7-8 starts… plus whoever doesn’t start usually gets a PH AB and/or a double-switch).
If you add Maggs, then one OF must be moved.
Shut up Joe Morgan.
I'd rather have a productive right fielder ...
and an expensive bench than an expensive right fielder who’s not productive.
And before anybody points it out ...
yes, Kosuke’s production and Colvin’s were comparable in 2010, and yes, Kosuke is better defensively.
But Colvin’s part of this team’s future, and Kosuke will be gone at this time next year (woohoo!). It’s time to give Colvin the everyday job.
And, yes, I’m all for trading Kosuke. As I’ve said before, I will personally drive the Fukudomes to the airport if he’s dealt.
Even though we disagree on Dome perspective...
I hope they deal him just for the image of you sending the Cubs an email offering to drive Dome to O’Hare.
Shut up Joe Morgan.
I would be OK keeping Kosuke ...
if I thought he were a good leadoff option. But I think last year proved that he’s not good in that spot. As a result, he’s just another No. 6 hitter on a team full of them — whereas Colvin at least has the capacity to do more.
And, yes, Kosuke could hit second. But he won’t, because that seems to be where Castro will hit.
I don't disagree with anything here.
My only quibble is, as noted before, I feel there are enough ABs to go around… and I don’t want to trade Dome for a nickel on the dollar.
Colvin absolutely should have a “starting” spot (in quotes since he could be the swing OF even if he plays mostly RF).
And unless the Cubs have a big plan up their sleeves, I don’t see the point in dealing him for $3-4M of salary relief, which is what I think they would get.
Shut up Joe Morgan.
One point in the 4-man rotation's favor ...
It’s hard to imagine Quade being worse than Lou about letting veterans play through injuries. That might open up more time for Colvin — as would making him the backup at first.
Another weird byproduct of the current situation: Colvin has a chance to show that he can hit lefties, therefore making him an everyday player going into 2012.
Hmmm. Maybe I could get on board with your idea, fsu — considering that trading Kosuke might be an awful deal.
There you go!
I knew I could get you to come around!
You can even dedicate starters. In a 10 game stretch…
Sori starts 8 in LF (130 starts).
Byrd starts 9 in CF (145 starts).
Dome starts 6 in RF (97 starts, which go up to around 115 when someone inevitably goes on the DL or is “day-to-day”, Cubbie style… meaning they miss 8 straight games).
Colvin starts: 4 in RF, 1 in CF, 2 in LF, 1 @ 1B (130 starts… with only 16 starts at 1B, for those petrified by that notion).
Everyone gets their ABs and Dome is “used properly”.
Shut up Joe Morgan.
Part of me thinks using Kosuke "properly" is sitting him on the bench or releasing him.
But I’m probably letting my dislike of him go too far. I’m also more petrified of Colvin in center than of him at first.
Regardless, Hendry should still try to shop Kosuke. I’d still love for him to pitch a Kosuke-for-DeRosa deal, but that’s probably a pipedream.
Pretty sure we agreed on that one before.
Sign me up… as long as the Cubs didn’t have to pay the entire balance of the salary difference.
Shut up Joe Morgan.
Did Fukudome burn your house down or somethin', el?
You appear to “blame” him for making $12M a year. Also, you seem to have put Colvin in some sort of “elite” class and I’m just not seeing it. Ever hear of the “Sophomore Slump”? ‘Dome needs to play as much as Colvin does. Ya can’t have a $12M guy sitting on the bench 5 days a week. I believe, if in contention at the trade deadline, one of those 2 will be dealt away…and I don’t think it’ll be ’Dome. If Hendry can find a taker for Fukudome prior to the start of the 2011 season, then “2 fools have met”.
"I don't care who the manager is OR who they sign in the off-season...I just want a frickin' World Series winner" - Easy Ed
First of all, it's $13.5 million.
I don’t blame Kosuke for making money. But the signing, in my mind, was the spark that ignited a fire that burned down the foundation laid in 2006-07. Had the Cubs NOT signed Kosuke after 2007, they could have spent $48 million on better player(s). There really is little question anymore — despite old, tired, impossible-to-quantify statements that Kosuke made the Cubs more patient and more attractive to Japanese fans or fuzzy math regarding when he received his signing bonus, etc. — that Kosuke has been grossly overpaid by the Chicago Cubs.
When the Kosuke signing blew up, Hendry had to find another middle-order bat who hit left handed. Enter Milton Bradley, whose contract (with so much other money on the books) was paid for by shedding DeRosa, Wood and Marquis and acquiring replacements who were net negatives in 2009 (Gregg, Miles, etc.).
Hendry is the main culprit, and even with Kosuke, he could have found other ways to work his budget and fill out the team. But Kosuke’s failure in the second half of 2008 was the single biggest factor in deciding how the complexion of the team was going to change for 2009, IMO. And, of course, we all know what happened in 2009 and 2010. I also hate the defense that Hendry shouldn’t be blamed for signing Kosuke because a handful of other GMs were equally willing to shell out too much money Kosuke. Great — so Jimbo won the bidding for the first Yugo. Fantastic.
Beyond that, I’m personally tired of hearing how Kosuke is really a good player even though he’s not good enough to justify another team even paying half his salary. If he’s as good as his defenders claim, why won’t some team pay even $4 million for his strong defense and OBP?
l never criticize Kosuke’s defense. But he’s a maddening offensive player who has been a huge disappointment. He’s incredibly streaky, he requires a platoon partner/lots of rest to perform AND he can’t use his single good offense ability — OBP — to provide the one thing the Cubs haven’t had since Kenny Lofton: a leadoff hitter.
Finally, Colvin might have a sophomore slump. But he’s a legitimate part of this team’s future. Why would we sit him down in place of a guy who likely will head back to Japan before 2012? Colvin might not be the real deal — but shouldn’t we actually find out if he is? I think the findings on Kosuke are pretty clear.
by elgato on Nov 23, 2010 2:35 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
So, be honest...
…did you just write this or did you have it stored on your hard drive for easy access?
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
lol...I was just reading this and was thinking the same thing...well-done cat!
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Nov 23, 2010 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
Ha. No.
But I’ve thought about it a lot — and I’ve made some of these points before, as you probably can see.
Yeah, just kiddin'.
As one who has valiantly tried to defend Kosuke in the past, I’ve given up the fight. I still think he’s a skilled player, but he hasn’t been able to apply those skills consistently or successfully enough to be of a huge value to the team. And a contract that size does create payroll headaches. I, too, would much prefer to see Colvin get a long look in right field for the Cubs next season.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
I don't know why anybody would be opposed to Colvin starting over Kosuke.
Colvin has a future with this team. Kosuke doesn’t. Anyway, Soriano or Byrd will need some time off, so whoever’s the fourth outfielder will get some playing time — though the four-man rotation makes me skeptical.
so Jimbo won the bidding for the first Yugo.
Jimbo won the bidding for the 10,000th Yugo…Japanese league players dont often have success here and the fact that we shelled out $50-60 million just to talk to him is rediculous enough
You got me there, el...
the “snowball effect”, after the ‘Dome signing, was fatal to this team, who was trying to take the next step after ’08. With that being said, the OF isn’t, nor should it be, top priority for this team. A Soriano, Byrd, ’Dome and Colvin platoon, for one more year, could be alot worse. This team needs a left handed, middle of the order, run producing 1B and a couple arms in the pen…period.
"I don't care who the manager is OR who they sign in the off-season...I just want a frickin' World Series winner" - Easy Ed
Actually, we're not really that far apart, Ed.
Here’s the thing. I want a left-handed middle-order run producer. I also want Colvin to play every day. We mainly disagree in the four-man rotation idea (maybe I’m wrong on that) and whether we should consider moving Colvin to first if that middle-order bat is an outfielder.
First base should be the priority, because it makes the most sense. I just don’t like you categorically rejecting putitng Colvin at first. I don’t think we have enough data, Ed.
not a clue
what I want and what is available may be two different things all together…honestly, Nady is my #1 choice so we are open for the Adrian run, if it doesnt work out we still have an ok 1b and can try Colvin there if Nady gets injured. Dunn would be my #2 choice as long as he doesnt get an NTC – a platoon of Vmart, Geo and Colvin would have been my #3 choice…then again this is a completely uneducated guesstimate
Whoever we sign needs to hit left-handed.
So let’s say no to the X man.
call me strange
but I dont care if my entire team is left handed, right handed, switch hitters, same with the pitching staff…give me the best that I can get and go out there and do your damn job…then again I wouldnt mind seeing a team bump their order up 2 spots so you have (per 2010 Cubs opening day starters)
1. Lee
2. Ramirez
3. Byrd
4. Soriano
5. Soto
6. Fontenot
7. Pitcher
8. Fukudome
9. Fontenot
Uh, first of all...
…you’ve got Fontenot in their twice. Second of all, I’m not sure I’m mentally prepared to engage in a RETRO-lineup discussion.
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I was just using that as
a point of reference – 9 was supposed to be Theriot…at least he would have batted where he should
by hansman1982 on Nov 24, 2010 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
And Dunn isn't plus defensively anywhere on the field...
…though he’s better at first than in the outfield.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Meaning what?
As long as the 1B can field a three hopper throw from one of our IF guys it doesn’t matter if he can hit or not? Didn’t we have one of those in D. Lee?
"I don't care who the manager is OR who they sign in the off-season...I just want a frickin' World Series winner" - Easy Ed
if it allows us
flexability in the Gonzalez sweepstakes, sure…if Lee was dropped in the order 2010 would have ended much differently, then again we may have been buyers at the deadline and it may have turned out much worse…
Nah.
We wouldn’t have been buyers at the deadline if D-Lee had been moved in the order.
it may have changed
the outcome of a few games…just thinking that with Lou behind the helm it may have been much better to have been sellers than buyers – got some useful bits out of the guys we traded
+13.5MM
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
That's a lotta BCB points.
You better backload this deal.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
and NTC them
you must use them all
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
And Jimmy ballgame
didn’t get here until mid-May when the Pads cut him loose. It bears noting the Pads paid almost all his $8M+ he got that season.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Nov 23, 2010 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
I wanna see the kid in RF for the whole season
I think he’s got the moxie to do it.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Nov 23, 2010 10:55 AM CST up reply actions
As soon as I saw this I thought the same thing
Very interesting. The Tigers were my new top landing spot for Dunn. With Benoit and now V-Mart I don’t see them paying for Dunn.
Dunn may be pricing himself out of options as I thought the Tigers were most likely to give him the big payday. At this point, my 3 most likely spots for Dunn are Nationals, Cubs and Orioles in that order.
I still expect Konerko and Huff to return to their respective teams so I don’t see them as options.
For once Hendry may be smart and sitting and waiting for the musical chairs to stop and see which 1st baseman is without a team.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Absolutely.
One of Hendry’s problems in recent years has been signing guys as the market develops. Case in point — signing Bradley for $30 million when Abreu signed in February for $5 million.
There’s been a LOT of criticism that the Cubs haven’t acted yet this offseason — even though relatively few players have signed anywhere. I wouldn’t be shocked if the Nats can’t agree to a deal with Dunn and the Cubs get him at a good price in January.
I’m not saying it WILL happen. But Dunn only got 2 years, $20 million after 2008. I’m amazed that he thinks he’ll get a helluva lot more now, after a down OBP year, with two more years of age and the consensus that he’s not an everyday outfield option anymore.
The market for Dunn is small and getting smaller weekly
I saw a comment that the Dodgers may now be keeping Loney. They are likely out of the market. Tigers likely out now too. The Astros for sale will impact their buying.
If Beltre resigns with Boston then they are out as that would prevent the Youkilis move back to 3rd base. If Huff and Konerko do resign then the market really does fall back to a small number of teams including the Cubs, Nationals and maybe the O’s and Angels.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Signing guys
before the market develops is Hendry’s issue. You make a good point on that dollar comparison.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Nov 23, 2010 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
And even if we wait and don't get Dunn ...
we might get a 1-year deal for somebody like Carlos Pena. We need to knock off all this talk that the Ricketts are cheap because they haven’t YET made a major move — when early offseason moves have screwed the Cubs over in recent years.
Exactly
Here’s to hoping that Hendry pulls the right moves !!
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Nov 23, 2010 12:52 PM CST up reply actions
but he chose Quade over Sandberg
and went cheap in a crappy draft…so OBVIOUSLY he is the 21st century Wrigley…PUKE
Today is also last day for offering arbitration
As I understand it the Red Sox can offer arbitration now to V Martinez and get the Tigers pick?
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
This is a good question that came up before.
And nobody seemed to be able to find an answer to it.
Your scenario certainly seems possible… but it seems like a bad set-up.
My “hope” is that the rule is this: you only get compensatory selections if arbitration is offered before a player signs elsewhere (and before the deadline for offering). I would call this “you snooze, you lose”.
Shut up Joe Morgan.
Of course
now that I read the article, it does say the Red Sox will get the Tigers’ pick… which, again, seems a little screwy (unless the Sox already offered arbitration).
Shut up Joe Morgan.
I believe that if a player signs before the arbitration deadline, compensation is mandatory
which is why teams frequently wait for the former team to decline arbitration. Since Boston assuredly would offer V-Mart arbitration, there was no need to wait.
by holy mackeral on Nov 23, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
Wow, four years, $50 million.
I guess the economy is getting better. Here’s Fangraphs’ take (Dave Cameron) — basically, if VMart can stick behind the plate, he’ll be worth the money.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
They're droppin' like bowling pins!
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No surprise on this one at all.
Back to the Dunn discussion, here are the teams I see as likely options….
NL: Nationals, Cubs.
AL: Orioles, Angels, White Sox and maybe Red Sox and Rangers.
That is only 7 teams and if Konerko resigns, the ChiSox are done. Crawford to Anaheim and Werth and/or Beltre to Boston could remove them as options. I don’t see Texas doing anything until Lee is signed somewhere. Is there anyone else?
I said before the season ended that Dunn could very likely end up with the Cubs I still think so.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
I agree
and I think its smart to wait it out. The nats might end up being the only competition for him.
"Baseball is ninety percent mental. The other half is physical." -Yogi Berra
Not quite though
Capps wanted a guaranteed closer role to rebuild his value. That was apparently the issue rather than money as I think the offers were close salary-wise.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
And the Nats seem to have serious concerns about defense.
I bet Dunn ends up somewhere other than DC.
no
but at the likely price (3 year 30 mil +) then yes
if it were 1 year $10 million I would drive to the airport to pick him up from Des Moines
redact that
would have to be a rediculously fantastic deal to get him here considering that he isnt a long-term solution at first and would cost some draft picks…
I dunno
It seems to me that the White Sox are interested. Even if it’s “only” the Nationals, that’s not nothing.
One of the things Dunn has going for him is that you know what you’re getting from him. Dye was always an injury risk. Konerko is up and down (mostly up when he’s in the last year of his deal). I don’t see that what happened to him 2 years ago is going to repeat this time.
by jerry morales rules on Nov 23, 2010 12:59 PM CST up reply actions
Well, even three years, $30 million would be acceptable.
Two years, $20 million is probably too low.
Two tweets of interest
Nationals offer arb to Adam Dunn
Braves will NOT offer arb to Derrek Lee
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
What are the odds of Lee coming back?
I’m assuming slim to none, given his recent surgery and poor year overall, but maybe this is something that will happen for low money as the offseason and free agents disappear?
"A good cigar is like a beautiful chick with a great body who also knows the American League box scores." Corporal Maxwell Q. Klinger
Please, no.
Considering how well the team played AFTER Lee was traded, why would we want to bring him back? I’m not saying he was the only reason the team was terrible for five months, but he sure didn’t do much to make it better.
D-Lee is a commendable guy who gave the Cubs some good play. But when something’s broken, you need to fix it. Bringing Lee back means the team that went 51-74 (IIRC) under Lou would largely be back. We don’t want that.
New blood, in this instance, is needed.
Lee was hurt.
You did notice that he had thumb surgery after the season?
That said, I agree that the Cubs should try someone else.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I did notice, yes.
But Lee’s nagging injuries are starting to mount.
I also agree
But if February rolls around, DLee has no team, the Cubs have no first baseman, and a cheap deal for one year (plus and option?) can be reached, I think it is a good possibility.
"A good cigar is like a beautiful chick with a great body who also knows the American League box scores." Corporal Maxwell Q. Klinger
I can't imagine the Cubs won't go for a left-handed bat at first.
The lineup balance issues of the past few seasons have largely stemmed from the fact that the positions where lefty bats usually play — left and first — were filled with right-handed hitters. With righties set at third and short, in center and (per usual) at catcher, the Cubs should use this opportunity to find a lefty bat to play first.
This is especially true if the Cubs decide that Kosuke should get more playing time than Colvin — figuring that Kosuke would be the team’s best leadoff option. I’m not advocating that approach, but if it happens, a lefty bat will be needed to break up the Castro-Ramirez-Byrd-Soriano-Soto mix. And I don’t think any of us wants to see DeWitt hitting fifth.
I'm thinking the Chris Davis deal may very well happen.
If so, the Cubs should have some cash to spend elsewhere.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
just glancing at his stats
the other day he appears to be very Dunn-esque…without the walks, and he has regressed each year in the majors on the hitting side
Yeah.
But the price tag is minimal, so he might be worth a flyer, you know?
absolutely
if we can dump some salary why not give it a whirl…would be something I would explore right before going with a Nady type or Colvin at 1b…
He's only 25 so there's still upside to Davis.
And his walk rate did jump up in 2010, but in fewer plate appearances (only 136 for the season) and with much less slugging. If nothing else, he’d be a young player we could all root for.
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Is that a gut feeling or based on something you've heard?
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Tigers have money to spend.
Their owner is rich and old while only getting richer and older. I wouldn’t be suprised if they landed another major FA. So I wouldn’t rule out Dunn to the Tigers yet, as they were talking about him as a LFer.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Nov 23, 2010 10:07 PM CST reply actions




















