Cubs Spring Training Stays In Mesa; Ballot Proposition Passes
by Al Yellon on Nov 3, 2010 7:35 AM CDT
in Chicago Cubs News
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Normally, politics and elections are a topic I prefer that BCB readers discuss elsewhere.
In the case of the proposition on the Mesa, Arizona ballot yesterday, however, since it concerns the Cubs and the future of the team's spring training complex, it's important to discuss here.
With 99.3% of precincts reporting, Proposition 420 has passed by a 63% to 37% margin. 80,706 votes were reported as of the time I posted this; the link above says all but one precinct of 148 had reported. 50,982 voted yes; 29,784 voted no. You should be able to see the final results whenever they are in at the link in this paragraph.
So the Cubs will go ahead with the plans to build a "Wrigleyville West" entertainment district as well as a new spring training complex which they also will use year-round as their "Western Baseball Headquarters". There are more details and renderings in this BCB post from October 4.
There's no firm timetable yet for construction, although I believe the Cubs would like to be in this new complex no later than 2014.
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How sweet it is!
The voters have spoken.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
by StevenABQ on Nov 3, 2010 7:48 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Al - I was faster but your post is definatly better, and the news is good.
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
I think "defiantly" wrong?
J/K.
Fukudometer: Created 3/31/08 Wrigley Debut 4/5/08 WGN and Japan TV Debut 4/6/08 Sun Times Debut: 4/20/08 Coffee Table Debut: 7/17/08 (http://www.wearecubsfans.com)
...I could try claiming it was a pun?
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
I think you meant defiantly.
Fukudometer: Created 3/31/08 Wrigley Debut 4/5/08 WGN and Japan TV Debut 4/6/08 Sun Times Debut: 4/20/08 Coffee Table Debut: 7/17/08 (http://www.wearecubsfans.com)
The Mesa Tradition Continues
The spring training teams in Arizona are closer together than the ones in Florida. The weather tends to be better in Arizona. However, I don’t think it has much to do with winning world championships.
I don’t believe we’re going to see any ST sites in south Texas any time soon. I hate to disappoint Cubbie-Tim. He had a funny proposal regarding that a while back.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
I don’t think it has much to do with winning world championships.
But it sure affects the curve ball!
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Nov 3, 2010 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
what
do you want me to say?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Nov 3, 2010 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions
LOL
What will we do for humor now that Lou is retired?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
ST in Northern Alaska; AZ over FL for ST
Well, if I knew the Cubs could win a World Series by having spring training in Barrow, Alaska, I’d be all for it. Arizona provides more advantages than Florida with spring training. The only small advantage I could possibly see with training in Florida would be that it is a little bit closer to Chicago and most of the other NL Central teams than Arizona is, but that’s a miniscule advantage. That would only come into play with the Cubs breaking camp and hopping a plane to Chicago or wherever they would start the regular season. That argument is as weak as water to have the Cubs train in Florida. To reiterate, the closeness of the teams in Arizona is by far the number one reason to stay out there for spring training.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
You're thinking like a fan, memphiscub...
Not that there’s anything wrong with that but I’m pretty sure there are 84 million other rea$on$ beside the closeness of the teams that convinced Ricketts to keep the Cubs in Mesa.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Seriously...
There are a lot of reasons to stay in Arizona; one of the most significant ones is, in fact, proximity to other teams.
Or would you rather the Cubs minor leaguers have to have three-hour bus rides every day just to play other minor league teams?
Do you own property in Naples or something?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Seriously...
you think Ricketts would stay in Arizona for the short bus rides if he had to pay for the ST facility out of his own pocket?
No, I don’t own property in Naples. Don’t know why you brought that up – I was talking about why Ricketts would want to stay in Mesa. Not to mention, personal property ownership would be the last argument I’d expect you to raise on this issue.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
There are plenty of reasons to stay in Mesa...
… all of which have been discussed extensively here, along with the negatives of moving to Naples.
In any case, it’s now a done deal, and the Cubs will have a first-class facility for players as well as fans. Isn’t that what this is supposed to be about?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
There you go again with the Naples stuff
All I pointed out was that it’s my belief that getting a ST facility paid for (or at least the first $84M of it) was a more critical factor to Ricketts than the length of a bus ride. I said nothing about Naples until you brought it up.
And since you did bring it up, I’ll just point out the inaccuracy of your minor league comment. The minor league teams in Florida hardly ever make the long bus trips that the major leaguers make. Once the minor leaguers start playing games, it’s almost exclusively with nearby teams, i.e. a “pod”. A couple of examples:
- Phillies-Yankees-Blue Jays.
- Tigers-Astros-Braves (and Indians & Royals when they were still in Fla).
If the Cubs had moved to Naples, most likely their minor league “pod” would have been with the Red Sox, Twins and Rays – none of which are 3 hour bus rides.
And yes, the Cubs having a first-class facility for the players and the fans is what this is all about – I’m glad this is finally going to happen. And had it happened in Florida, it still would have been a first-class facility for the players and the fans.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Ricketts Not Paying for the ST Facility
Sure, that has something to do with it. I believe the Ricketts were leaning towards keeping ST in Arizona anyway, but the sweet deal from Mesa sealed the deal.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
I have a reply
but you don’t want us to talk about politics, so… :D
I’m sure SOMETHING will come up…
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Nov 3, 2010 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
What is the Cubs cut
in regards to Spring Training Revenues…cause a facility that generates more revenues over its predecessor certainly benefits the big club.
"All I want is food and creative love" - Rusted Root
by TheRiot Police on Nov 3, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Heh
Proposition 420. Prop “420” (Prop 19) in California crashed and burned.
Just another reason to finally plan the trip to Mesa!
Fukudometer: Created 3/31/08 Wrigley Debut 4/5/08 WGN and Japan TV Debut 4/6/08 Sun Times Debut: 4/20/08 Coffee Table Debut: 7/17/08 (http://www.wearecubsfans.com)
Congrats AL
You predicted this outcome from the very beginning. I was skeptical but you remained unwaveringly confident. I bow to your prognosticative skills!!!
Now, please tell me how azjazzman managed to vote ‘no’ 29,784 times?
I'm wet nurse to a (5th)-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
by Eisman57 on Nov 3, 2010 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Your from Chicago, aren't you? You should know how.
how azjazzman managed to vote ‘no’ 29,784 times?
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
You're from... and not Your from...
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
Nobody minds a new hotel tax
when you’re the one not staying in th hotel.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
Excellent!
In a state swimming in red ink, some politicians have somehow found the stomach to liquidate a real estate asset and conjure a tax to help a billionaire build a sports and restaurant complex.
But then, Ricketts’ timing was actually good. With the economy in the toilet, and a city and state that depend on tourism dollars for a large chunk of its revenue, it didn’t take much work to whip up a little hysteria over the Cubs’ threat to pull out of the Cactus League. Throw in some alchemy in the form of bullshit economic impact studies done by PR firms masquerading as research outfits and everything was over but the shouting.
As I have written in the past, I was once involved in fighting the use of public funds for sports facilities in towns and states in far better financial shape than Arizona. The reason? They’re a money loser for the public every single time.
And in ten or fifteen years, when some team builds an even spiffier complex down the street, Ricketts will be back with his hand out saying Wrigleyville West is outdated and he might have to move to Florida if nothing is done for him.
The only good I can see is that maybe since we now have our very own Jerry Reinsdorf running our team, maybe we’ll win a World Series.
And in ten or fifteen years, when some team builds an even spiffier complex down the street, Ricketts will be back with his hand out saying Wrigleyville West is outdated and he might have to move to Florida if nothing is done for him.
Except they’re signing a 30-year lease.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Really, Al? You can't see a future scenario where Ricketts goes to the goofballs in charge
and says, concerning the land he payed all but nothing for by the way, “We could not have predicted these unforeseen changes but we find ourselves between a rock and a hard place here. What can you do for me, boys?”
A state so broke it can’t even keep its roadside restrooms open has already presented him with an outright handout. I think Ricketts is capable of taking advantage of these bumpkins in ways you can’t even imagine.
No, I don't see it that way.
What they are proposing and building is something that should be the showcase of the Cactus League for decades to come.
Furthermore, you are incorrect. The state of Arizona is paying exactly zero dollars under this agreement.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If by costing Arizona nothing you mean they aren't cutting Ricketts a check
directly from the state budget, then yeah, this is magically costing nothing.
In the real world, the the cash-strapped state of Arizona has created a tax and instead of using that revenue to reopen highway rest stops, parks, hire teachers etc. they are funneling it to a billionaire’s pet project. The state is raising money and then putting it in private hands. That is a revenue stream created by a state specifically to benefit a businessman. It’s bizarre to think this is costing Arizona nothing when there are a million better uses for that very real money raised by a very real tax.
The tax is a small portion of this deal.
Further, the project will create jobs. The people with those jobs will pay income taxes, buy things and pay sales taxes, and generate other economic activity.
That will bring Arizona a lot more money than a 2% bed tax on Mesa hotel rooms.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yikes!
The jobs created will be a few dozen low wage service industry jobs. Certainly the wave of our country’s future, but not exactly an economic juggernaut. It will cause nary a ripple in the state’s budget mess.
Construction jobs.
The Cubs will also hire quite a number of fulltime employees as the complex is supposed to be a year-round operation, and those won’t be “low wage service industry jobs”.
You’re looking at this from the standpoint of 16 home spring training games. I assure you, it is far more than that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Construction jobs are short term. And no, I'm not thinking just 16 games.
A number of full time employees? Okay, add those to the bar tenders and bus boys and there still isn’t a ripple.
More than you'd think.
In any case, we get it. You’re against this. Nevertheless, it’s happening. We’ll see what the real impacts are several years from now.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
nth, you are right. No jobs is much better and so is a vacant lot.
You are goofy. The voters voted for this and that’s what counts. Certainly not what you think should be done with the moeny.
So your idea is
Mesa should have raised their hotel tax by 2%. And then Mesa should given to money to the state of AZ?
Where is that right? How do you keep adding the State of AZ into a City of Mesa vote?
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Nov 3, 2010 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
No. I wish there was no tax to begin with.
But it’s completely insane that in a state so deep in the red, where the only growth industry is private prisons, that this tax to benefit so few was okayed in the first place.
but the state
has nothing to do with it. The city created this tax. How is MESA doing, specifically?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Nov 3, 2010 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Mesa, like the rest of the state, is doing horribly.
Mesa has had to slash general-fund spending by $84 million in just the past two budget cycles to cope with falling revenues.
One measure of how dramatically the recession slammed Mesa’s economy and its city budget is to compare sales taxes in 2006-07 with current numbers.
Actual collections in 2006-07 were almost $160 million. For the past 12 months, collections were $121 million.
There's no doubt that the recession has hit Arizona hard.
Nevertheless, this recession will not last forever. By the time this complex is completed in 2014, it ought to be over and business (and tax revenues) recover.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Wish I could share your sunny outlook on the future, Al.
Even though we don’t share a problem with limited natural resources, I personally I think we’re headed into at least a decade of Japan-style minimal economic growth. Econ majors unite! We can rain on anyone’s parade!
nth, oh boo hoo
The voters overwhelmingly supported it. So they disagree with your " expertise".
Let's get down to some facts here
from the article that Al linked to above:
The second, which passed by a narrower margin (with 58 percent of the vote), authorized the city to raise the hotel tax by two percentage points (to 5 percent) to help pay for it. Mesa will also sell land in remote Pinal County to pay down debt on the facility.
Who is being taxed here? Visitors to Mesa, AZ – I don’t call that conjuring up a tax. At least not a tax on the residents of Mesa, AZ. This hotel tax has nothing to to with the Stae of AZ finances.
Sell land in remote Pinal County – That’s your “liquidate a real estate asset”? Land that Mesa said it no longer needed. What else should Mesa have done with that land?
What would be your alternative plan?
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Nov 3, 2010 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Interesting econ lesson. When is a tax not a tax? When it's not taxing the citizens of Mesa.
My alternative plan would be not to use public assets to subsidize people like Tom Ricketts. If he wants a new sports complex, let him do what you or I would have to do, raise the money ourselves.
Nevertheless, it's done and your opinion isn't going to change things.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
OT
I’m not seeing a link to buy Cubs Convention tickets. Can anyone help?
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Sorry, I should have been more clear.
I don’t see a link for individual tickets. That link is only selling the hotel packages.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Take another look.
There are two links on that page, one for the hotel packages, the other for passes only.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's really strange.
I had no trouble getting to the ticketing link from that page.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Here's what's interesting.
You can get in with no VWR. It’s 11 am and plenty of passes are still available.
As recently as 2007, the convention sold out in 20 minutes. This is a harbinger of things to come for the ticket sale in February.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes, I found that odd
I expected to see a sellout already.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Nov 3, 2010 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
I didn't.
As I said, I think demand for these things is down, and it will be reflected again when tickets go on sale in February.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I never bought into the Ryno as manager will increase ticket sales to games.
But I bet if he were manager the Cubs convention would have sold out quickly so fans could celebrate his promotion.
Very possibly.
And again, that’s not the reason to hire a manager.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
VWR Wait Time Was Down in 2010
The wait time in the VWR will be even less in 2011. In the end, the Cubs may end up selling more tickets in 2011 than they did in 2010, but fans are going to buy tickets closer to the actual date of the game next season. I hope the Cubs sell more tickets next season because that will have meant they will have been more successful on the field than in 2010. Winning can cure a lot of ills.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Agreed.
Ticket sales will pick up if the team wins. Otherwise, they could be in big trouble.
FWIW, it is 6:05 pm Thursday. There are still convention passes available — plenty of them. By my count, if the sequence numbers are correct, i.e. that’s how many have sold, they sold only 200 of them today.
This is unprecedented. For the first time, a Cubs Convention might not sell out. And in this case, it is NOT the pass price — they sold out last year, and the passes are the same price this year.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Oh boy
Just when I thought we wouldn’t be hearing from azjazzman – his twin brother shows up. Is this what we have to look forward to from here until 2014? a constant bitching about how the voters in Mesa were hoodwinked into voting on prop 420? Geez give it a rest already. They voted, its going to happen, and either way AZ (like many states in the union) will continue to have budget problems.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
by StevenABQ on Nov 3, 2010 12:13 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Glad it passed.
I know where I’ll be for the next 30 years of spring training. Ut oh, I’ll be in my 80’s then.
I’ll be there for the next decade for sure!
Sandberg for manager!
Al
Won’t you be in your 80’s in thirty years, too? I know that I will.
Oh well, if bad math helps you feel young — whatever it takes!
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
God willing you won't be alone in the bleachers..
I’ll be an octogenarian too. Play ball !!!
I'm wet nurse to a (5th)-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
I hope they call the waterpark "Waveland."
One of Lee Elia's 15%
by waiting4cubs on Nov 3, 2010 12:28 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Of course, that means ballhawk would have to station himself there during spring training games.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
water wings for the hawk
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
I'm thinking I could go the innertube route...
…and tie one of those floating coolers to it. Filled with some nice cold tasty adult beverages of course. ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Maybe
As you ride down the waterslide you could get pelted with baseballs flying over a brick wall.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Nov 3, 2010 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Speaking of spring training
The Cubs should release their full schedule soon, but some of the games can be found here.
Also
Question 2 passed, which is an increase in the bed tax, and that money will be spent on, among other things, the Spring Training facility they said wouldn’t need any tax increases. Congratulations, Mesa, you managed to pass two measures, one of which was heavily campaigned using facts that completely ignored the other.
"If it's not rolled in a pancake, it's not real American sushi."
There are no tax increases on Mesa residents.
Unless any of them stay in a hotel in their own city.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
But
That’s still not the same thing as “There is public money being used, but it is being raised by the sale of land, not by any tax increase.”
"If it's not rolled in a pancake, it's not real American sushi."
Is there a purpose for your post except to slam me?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't mean it as an attack against you
That was just the easiest source to find for the most frequently used lie in this whole situation.
"If it's not rolled in a pancake, it's not real American sushi."
The overwhelming majority of the money...
… is coming from the sale of land.
There is no tax increase on Mesa residents unless they stay in a hotel in Mesa.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It is, afterall, the right thing to do - keeping the cubs in Mesa.
It’s a big reason why so many Chicagoans Winter or move out here. The Cactus League without the Cubs? Not an attractive thought.
Sweeter words have rarely been spoken: "...and the cardinals are down to their final out."
Not mentioned in this conversation is the inevitable increase in ST ticket prices
which will make Wrigleyville West more like Wrigley too.
A few comments and corrections
1 – Mesa and the Cubs have said the new ST complex should be ready to move into in 2013, not 2014.
2 – The hotel tax was a no brainer for Mesa voters. All it did was bring the Mesa hotel tax in line with other cities in the valley.
3 – Ticket prices for ST games. Worth noting that the new complex will be run by the CUBS, not Mesa. So they will be the ones setting ticket prices. The D’Backs and Rockies have made it clear that they intend to not make the mistake that was made at Camelback Ranch and will keep the prices of ST games in their new Scottsdale facility reasonable and inexpensive. I would be willing to bet the Cubs will follow suit. Everyone seems to agree the Dodgers and White Sox made a strategic mistake with their ticket prices.
4 – No doubt the City of Mesa is struggling with budget problems, but it is nowhere near as dire as some here indicate. There were 6 bond issues on the ballot last night authorizing the city to spend money on improvement projects and all of them passed.
Mesa is not on an island, it is part of what is generically called the “east valley” and the region got a tremendous boost last week when Intel announced that they will be upgrading their Chandler plants to manufacture the latest 22 nanometer technology processors. That will mean about 3,000 construction jobs, hundreds of high paying permanent jobs (many of which will be people living in Mesa) and about a $2B investment. All of which benefits the whole East Valley.
5 – All joking aside, I voted yes on Prop. 420.
Thanks for the clarifications and additions...
… and for your “yes” vote.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
What the hey???
You switched sides at the culmination of this conflict? Perhaps we should call you “Italian-jazzman?”
Kidding, thanks for the support!!!
I'm wet nurse to a (5th)-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
does this mean MLB turned down my idea for Austin, TX?
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
but thats not fait
i mean, i spent hundreds of seconds not researching it
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
fair***
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
looks like it would be hard fot the kayakers in Banks Cove to catch a foul ball
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Do any ML teams play in spring facilities...
…that have the same field dimensions as their ML park? Seems like this could serve as at least a slight advantage to a team, especially one that plays in an “odd” shaped field like Wrigley (long down the lines, short power alleys, small foul territory, tall brick wall with a basket).
Maybe the Cubs should just build a replica of Wrigley in Mesa and turn it into a museum during the months it is not in use. Not just another theme-park in the desert dream, but a ceasless flowing revenue stream.
Can you grow ivy in Arizona? Maybe some clinging cacti on the outfield wall could add some Southwestern flavor.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Nov 3, 2010 10:44 PM CDT reply actions
The Mets park in Port St. Lucie, Florida...
… was built to the dimensions of Shea Stadium.
Guess that doesn’t matter any more.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It looks nice and it will be good for the players, but....
HoHoKam is 13 years old. I don’t like the precedent this sets. I think this makes it that much easier for the Cubs or any other team in AZ to come back and demand a new park even sooner. I get that HoHoKam didn’t have ALL the latest and greatest, but from what I understand it was a pretty good place.
I guess I just feel as though they did this cause they felt they could get away with it as opposed to because they really needed it.
---AC 00 00 00 - Believe
A lot of ST parks get overhauled or get new parks built in that timeframe.
The HoHoKam built in 1997 replaced one built in 1979 — not that many years fewer now.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
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