Greinke to the Brewers
Think the Cubs could have topped Milwaukee's offer?
over 1 year ago
KevinABQ
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Odorizzi, Cain, Escobar and Jeffress
"I don't care who the manager is OR who they sign in the off-season...I just want a frickin' World Series winner" - Easy Ed
If it's true
we could have matched the talent level, but I don’t know that we could have offered a major league shortstop and a major league ready CF. Sure, we could have offered Brett Jackson, HJ Lee, Chris Archer and Chris Carpenter, which would be a better package of talents, but Escobar and Cain are ready right now and those four might be a year away or more in Lee’s case.
Bottom line is that we don’t have a major league shortstop to part with, unless you want to give up Castro. Barney’s not going to do it.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 1:37 AM CST up reply actions
agreed
I’m upset that the Brewers were able to land Greinke for this package, which i think is incredibly light, but i’m not blaming this one on the Cubs.
There’s a large disconnect between what the Royals were reportedly asking for from the Jays (Snider + Drabek) and what they got here. Obv the Royals were willing to take less overall talent to get the right fits and that’s what happened here: SS and CF
So our package would’ve had to have been Jackson, Lee, and one of the top arms to get their attention. Now its debatable whether you’d do that deal, but the price is certainly higher than what the Brewers offered, and if the Brewers put the premium on major league ready at those 2 positions we’d have to increase the offer further.
It appears this an example of an organization putting fit over talent, which with prospects is almost always a poor decision. I’m shocked this is the deal they’re taking for Greinke
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 19, 2010 9:03 AM CST up reply actions
Does that surprise you with Dayton Moore in charge?
What’s likely to happen next with the Royals, is that they won’t play these prospects, but instead let them languish in their system while they sign guys like Willie Bloomquist.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
they'll play the guys
these guys are big league ready.
it doesn’t surprise me that Moore may have gotten locked in on a few guys and over-valued them, that is consistent with his history
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 19, 2010 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
They've had other guys who are big league ready...
… like Alex Gordon, who they just should have let play. How much worse would they have been?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
actually it shows how project inflated prospect prices are
That said, Cubs are not in position to add until they find out what they will need as the system graduates.
I think we will see an acceleration of players ascending with an eye of what spring training produces.
Focus on the pitching where Cubs could sell off parts and pieces and possibly improve. But I could see H-Lee coming faster than others presume, the same that Castro did.
Watch how injuries are handled at 3B and OF as well.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
You are assuming there will be injuries at 3B and OF
But I am afraid that based on the past couple of year that is a reasonable assumption……:-(
That's right...
…who needs dumb ol’ Zach Greinke?
"I don't care who the manager is OR who they sign in the off-season...I just want a frickin' World Series winner" - Easy Ed
However...I'll believe this when I see it.
"I don't care who the manager is OR who they sign in the off-season...I just want a frickin' World Series winner" - Easy Ed
Not us....
We have Big Z’s meltdowns, But hey if he pitches good for 2 weeks most Cubs fan will forget and put their blinders back on! But hey we got Kerry Wood and back loaded a deal for a 1st baseman who had his arguably his worst ever year. No worries he will get better! Better stop their or we will be the know nothing fans who should just believe their is a method to our madness even though we have a payroll the size of the World Champion Phillies!
by cubsluver22 on Dec 18, 2010 11:35 PM CST up reply actions
Well, like I said...
…I’ll believe this when I see it on ESPN. If it IS true, then all I got to say is that there is something really wrong going on in this organization. I’ll just leave it at that. I’m sure the sabermetric gurus will explain to us why getting Zach Greinke would’ve been a mistake. They always make me feel better.
Can this off season get any worse?
There is nothing wrong with us....
We got Kerry Wood!
by cubsluver22 on Dec 18, 2010 11:46 PM CST up reply actions
No one really says that, or believes it's true...
I just want to win...
by bilbosbuttons on Dec 19, 2010 12:10 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, how DARE the Cubs make a positive move.
Sheesh, lighten up already. No one is saying that is going to make the Cubs contenders.
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2010 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
In fact none of the moves we've made for about three years have/will make us contenders
and yet our GM stays put
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
I'm not saying I'm on board with Hendry staying
Check my history. I’ve been an advoocate of getting rid of him for two years. That doesn’t mean signing Wood wasn’t a positive.
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2010 1:49 PM CST up reply actions
Wood was a good signing, w/o a doubt
"Don’t belittle entire fanbases or neighborhoods…simply because they are within proximity to some people who don’t operate (or look) the same way you do." - AndrewJStone 6/29/2010
It just didn't do a lot in the overall scheme of things
The Cubs looked like a non-contender before signing Wood, and they look like a slightly better non-contender after signing him – nice, but no big deal. There is only so much difference a middle reliever can make.
But the Brewers move pretty well sets up the Cubs to scrap with the Astros and Pirates for 4th next year. Oh well, none of those baseball game distractions to interrupt the drinking…..
Middle, Late Too Late And Not Close
You may very well be right about the 2011 Cubs. And while a middle reliever (although wouldn’t you say Wood will be more of a set-up guy than middle relief?) or set-up guy can’t win games they sure can set your team on the road to a loss, flipping potential wins to losses.
As a White Sox fan this was made all too clear to me in the case of one Scott Linestink.
"Don’t belittle entire fanbases or neighborhoods…simply because they are within proximity to some people who don’t operate (or look) the same way you do." - AndrewJStone 6/29/2010
As a Cub fan this was made all to clear to me by..
John Grabow, Bob Howry, James Russell, Brian Schlitter, Jeff Stevens, Andrew Cashner, Justin Berg, Marcos Matao,Jeff Samardzija and every relief pitcher not names Marmol or Marshall.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 19, 2010 7:47 PM CST up reply actions
Braves fans seem excited to get him
along with the big lefty from the O’s and Dodgers. I didn’t try to understand.
No one is saying it makes the Cubs world beaters
But to mock it makes no sense.
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2010 7:16 PM CST up reply actions
Ok
Ummm we have absolutely no need for a starting pitcher. We have 5 quality starters and more in the minors. Pitching isn’t the problem. Hendry would be a dope for giving up top prospects to get a guy whose not even an ace.
Btw, living in milwaukee, the only place that’s reported this is the js, which isn’t exactly known for quality journalism.
by Bad Midget on Dec 18, 2010 11:55 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Seriously?
Greinke’s not an ace??? My Gosh the relevance of this blog just keeps getting worse.
by cubsluver22 on Dec 19, 2010 12:13 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
exactly
mid rotation guy, sure.
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Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Unless any of those guys had won a Cy Young Award by the age of 26...
…then there’s really nothing similar at all, is there?
Can this off season get any worse?
Well thats still a subjective award
So Id be careful how much weight you put into that
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
an award voted on by the same people who gave Jeter another gold glove....
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
So you are calling into question
Roy Halladay’s Cy this year? Greinke was just as, if not more so dominant in his Cy Young year, and in the stronger league. I think we can credit the Cy Young award more than the gold gloves. I will say that the Cy Young voters had put way too much weight into wins/losses in the past, but I think they typically got it right.
by neifiisgreat on Dec 19, 2010 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
awards that are based on voting
and not on actual stats are a joke. Its like the ASG when a fan favorite is voted in and true ASG based on the numbers sit at home watching. Same with Gold Glove awards
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
but in looking at the examples stated, you'd still call it a joke?
Certainly there have been many instances where the Gold Glove award has indeed been a joke, influenced apparently more by the popularity and/or offensive prowess of the players involved.
But as it pertains to Cy Young awards, how many times can you honestly say the outcome was a joke?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Dec 19, 2010 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
CY/MVP is less likely to be given out due to reputation
He's my Hossa
HO-HO-HO-HO-HOSSA
by jesus christos on Dec 19, 2010 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
I think your take...
On the Cy Young Award is a joke!
by cubsluver22 on Dec 19, 2010 12:33 PM CST up reply actions
IMHO
once they take voting away and base it on the facts not opinions of voters, then i will take it serious, its my opinion and nothing more, and you are welcome to yours
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Are you seriously arguing that Greinke didn't deserve the Cy Young?
He was awesome in 2009. 9.4 WAR, 2.21 FIP, 9.5 K/9, 2.00 BB/9. Pretty much one of the best pitching seasons in recent memory using any metric.
no I am saying that his Cy Young award is NOT
the reason to go all out for someone
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Uh oh.
Denny McLain (979)
I guess this means he wins 30 games for the Brewers next year. Either that or he gets suspended for gambling or jailed for theft.
Take your pick.
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
No, he’s not an ace. He has a career 3.91xFIP and a career 3.59FIP which is very good, but that’s nowhere near ace quality. And the fact that to get Greinke you would have to give up three top prospects is insane.
He had one crazy good year, but that’s starting to look like an outlier performance. At this point the reputation outweighs the production. Obviously he’s young enough to become a top line starting pitcher, but at this point he’s just not.
by Bad Midget on Dec 19, 2010 12:22 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
to add to that...
his k/9 went down last year, his BB/9 rose, his Hr/9 rose, and his Hr/fb went up. Again, really damn good, but not a guy I’m giving up my three top impact prospects for.
He's played for the Royals...
He’s a Cy young Award Winner. The Cubs have exactly NO pitchers even close to that caliber and he’s only 27 years old. Yeah spin it off however you want, the Cubs don’t need a pitcher of the caliber. Hendry is a freaking joke!
by cubsluver22 on Dec 19, 2010 12:26 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
the Cubs don’t need a pitcher of the caliber.
didn’t say that at all. It would be fantastic if the cubs could swing that deal. But to get him, most likely, you’re going to have to give up a bunch of top-tier players for a guy who a. isn’t an ace, b. won’t make the Cubs contenders, and c. it screws your farm system.
Isn't an ace?
Yeah a 27 year old Cy Young award winner that has played for a terrible team and is pretty cost controlled for 2 more seasons shouldn’t be considered an ace. Come and talk to me when you speak with some relevance.
by cubsluver22 on Dec 19, 2010 1:00 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah a 27 year old Cy Young award winner that has played for a terrible team and is pretty cost controlled for 2 more seasons shouldn’t be considered an ace.
And what does that have to do with being an ace? His career numbers suggest he’s a really good pitcher, but not an ace or someone who I want to give up top prospects for. The Cubs don’t need starting pitching. They have high upside guys like Archer, McNutt, and Cashner if they deicide to let him start. There are plenty of quality options.
Why would you give up top prospects for a guy that really doesn’t fit any of your needs and doesn’t make you a contender? Why? Please tell me why the Cubs make this deal.
What about his numbers for the past three years? Would they be considered
more “aceish” by the criteria you’re using? It seems like that would be a more useful way of looking at it.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
Exactly
Averaging in a pitcher’s age 20-23 seasons because he was so good the team couldn’t keep him in the minors hardly seems like a fair way to project him going forward. Using a simple stat, his ERA+ the last three years was 126, 205, 100. More to the point, his K/9, while spiking in 2009, has gotten better since his youngest days. Analyzing his stats is mostly about deciding which was the fluke, 2009 or 2010. Also, note he has played in front of a horrible defense.
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
You make this deal because
pitchers with that kind of upside are among the rarest players in the game, especially at his age and health.
I believe a package of Guyer, Lee, Archer, and Carpenter is better than what the Brewers gave up. However, I doubt Dayton Moore thinks that. He is filling holes.
Also, I agree there is a significant chance that Cashner, Archer, and McNutt are EACH more valuable than Greinke over their next 5/6 years than he will be to the Brewers, since he is only signed for two years. It’s not a slam dunk deal, but I understand why people who wanted Hendry to make a bold move would have wanted this deal.
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
You make this deal because
pitchers with that kind of upside are among the rarest players in the game, especially at his age and health.
Completely agree on that, but that’s a gigantic risk for the Cubs to take. He currently has two years left on his contract. Do you really think the Cubs would be a playoff team during those two years? You’re probably going to have two 80 win seasons and then he’ll leave in free agency and you screwed yourself.
Also have to remember that the ‘10 Cubs actually “over achieved” if you look at pythagorean W/L. If you acquire Greinke the best I see is an 85 win team, which maybe edges out the Cardinals or Reds. Plus that’s not even factoring decline for Ramierez, Soriano, Byrd, Demp.
I don’t know why the Cubs make this move unless they’re on the brink of contention.
Understood
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
Because if the Cubs have even a sliver of hope to win NL Central next year
…they’re going to have to do it with pitching and defense. Let me rephrase that – dominant pitching and good defense.
IMO, the offense on this team, as currently constructed, isn’t that good to begin with, and even when it’s producing, is way too inconsistent to depend on.
We need Z and Dempster to dominate. We need to sign Brandon Webb and have him be the King of Ground Balls like he’s capable of. And we need the likes of a Greinke or Garza to come in and have a season like they’re capable of. That would be an awesome 4 man rotation with a good defense behind them.
If Silva shows his 1st half last year was no fluke, then he’s your #5 and Wells goes to the bullpen where he’s had success before. If Silva bombs, see ya! and Wells slides back in where he can be a very good #5.
Cashner, in a move perhaps detrimental to his long term growth, stays in the bullpen. Marmol, Wood, Marshall and Cashner – that’s a helluva back end. A lead after 6 innings ought to be pretty safe.
Again – dominant pitching is the only way I see the Cubs making the post season this year. And if that’s the primary goal (even if it’s counter to long-term growth), then signing Webb with that extra $ supposedly floating around out there and trading some of the farm for Garza (or perhaps Fausto Carmona from Indians) is a way to do it.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Oh, and just for the record...
If I were in charge, I wouldn’t roll the dice on 2011 at the expense of long-term growth potential. Sure, it’s always possible to catch lightning in a bottle – it’s happened before and will happen again. But the odds are too great IMO for it to happen next year. I’ll give that up in order to keep the farm intact for 2012 and beyond.
I’d still sign Webb though and see how the 1st half of season goes. If we’re in it, then maybe I do dip into the farm and trade for whatever we need for the 2nd half. If not, then I see what Webb (and others) can fetch on the market.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Dec 19, 2010 12:16 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
the Cubs have exactly NO pitchers even close to that caliber
Why does it matter if we don’t have an ace? We have tons and tons and tons of pitching. We don’t need pitching at all. We have a quality starting five and some high upside arms in the minors. a good, young second baseman is the biggest need that comes to mind.
true, but we’re not a contending team right now. Even if you traded for Greinke by the time the Cubs actually contend, Greinke will probably be gone. Again, it would be amazing if we made a deal for him, but that’s probably not going to happen unless you sacrifice the farm, which would be dumb.
Just when in the hell are we a contending team?
You must think we got an assload of future all-stars down on the farm or somethin’. They ain’t there.
Can this off season get any worse?
No, I don’t see all-starts growing on trees.. I see an array of young, talented, high-upside STARTING PITCHERS.. If we we’re going to gut the farm (which isn’t that strong by the way) why in the hell would we do it for a starting pitcher?
Don't bother with Ed
Ed is a fan that feels that his team MUST go and get the shiniest toy available. Like a greedy little kid before Christmas. Like midget said, you just don’t deplete your system for a player that doesn’t fill a major need. Now you’r argument for A-Gon is semi-valid, given that we were truly lacking an impact bat/glove, even though 1B isn’t exactly a premium position. This is not to say I am happy with the state of this organization. This club seems to have no sense of direction in some areas. Sometimes you have to look past the shortcomings and focus on the next plausible goal. Landing Greinke isn’t exactly plausible right now.
You nailed it...
This club seems to have no sense of direction
You build a team on one of three things…Starting pitching, power or speed. We got none of it.
Pitching is mediocre to say the least. Had a shot at an ace and stood pat. The crowd loves the Kerry Wood signing tho.
Coulda made a big statement by trading for A-Gon or signing Dunn. Nope. Why do we need them? We got some HUGE power bats coming up through the minors. NOT!
Speed? Seriously? If we steal 35 bases as a team this year I’d be frickin’ shocked.
You’re right…I want the shiny new toy. Why? The old toys suck!
Can this off season get any worse?
by Easy Ed on Dec 19, 2010 2:07 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
you also want these toys at all costs
which is how you end up missing a WS due to depleting your team AND hand cuffing the team financially. At all costs is the wrong way to gamble, which every move in MLB is. You send your top 3, 4 or 5 prospects to get one player, and you actually (quite often) can put your team back three steps since they no longer can make a mid season move financially, and even if they could dont have the talent to make the move. You also make it impossible to slide a kid into the line up furing a slump or injury who can produce at an “ok” level until the daily player is ready. You want to go all out and get the shiny toy, well we did that many times, starting with Soriano, and that is why we are tight on finances, and not sending all our talent from the minors away in one or two trades as you are demanding they do.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
You send your top 3, 4 or 5 prospects to get one player, and you actually (quite often) can put your team back three steps since they no longer can make a mid season move financially, and even if they could dont have the talent to make the move.
or you can move ahead. There is something called “overvaluing prospects”.
Ken Rosenthal sums it up nicely in this article. 90% of all MLB prospects fail to turn into impact players.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/brewers-chose-greinke-over-prospects
I guess those on BCB that hold similar points of view must really believe in all of these prospects in our farm system. I’m skeptical of most and you should be as well, since, after all, most prospects fail.
We’ve missed out on trading for 2 impact players (AGon and Greinke) that were signed to team friendly contracts and would have put the Cubs in contention in 2011 and beyond.
Who knows if Cashner, McNutt, Lee, Archer, BJack, JJack, and all of these other unproven prospects amounts to anything. Percentages alone suggest that most of them won’t be very good MLB players. Yet you seem to advocate holding onto them and hoping the team hits lighting in a bottle like the Phillies did with their homegrown core. Do you know how long it took the Phillies to develop a group of impact skill players. A really, really, long time……
i agree most fail
and i dont believe that we have a surge of talent on its way, but there is also over spending in a trade for one player. The flip side is if ONE player pans out and puts up numbers, the same one who cry to move the prospects say it was a horrible trade (years after they are happy with it) due to one kid working out.
I believe its good to make sensible trades, but when our need isnt pitching, why unload the kids to get more of it?
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
and Gri4nke is $13.5M in 2011
not exactly as friendly of a sign as you might think IMHO
Zack Greinke rhp
4 years/$38M (2009-12)
4 years/$38M (2009-12)
signed extension with Kansas City 1/26/09 (avoided arbitration, $4.4M-$3.4M)
09:$3.75M, 10:$7.25M, 11:$13.5M, 12:$13.5M
limited no-trade protection:
may block deals to 20 clubs in 2009, 2010
may block deals to 15 clubs in 2011
1 year/$1.4M (2008)
ML service: 5.057
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
That's a team friendly contract considering other Cy Young winners
are making $20+M per year (Peavy, Halladay, CLee, CC). The going rate for an elite arm on the FA market is astronomical. We could have had Greinke for a few prospects that MIGHT have panned out
I’d rather pay Greinke $13M over Dempster, that’s for sure, and his contract could have fit the budget by moving a couple of guys and seeing if Greinke would defer some of his 2011 pay to 2012.
Alas, it doesn’t matter. Another elite player is traded to some team other than the Cubs and we’ll be left signing the next Soriano after we signed the last one…..
not for our team
when they have approx $10M to spend and he is due $13.5, it also likely hand cuffs any mid season moves, so it is team friendly under the right circumstances, which for the Cubs dont exist currently
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
You make this happen
Trade fukudome, DFA Hill, trade Wells.
Good teams and FOs make these trade’s happen. Again, they could’ve asked Greinke to defer part of his 2011 salary. They already did this with Pena, why not with Greinke?
Its useful to think outside of the box once in a while, but Hendry has never been very good at that……
easier said than done
for starters there is this thing called a NTC for Fukudome,
also I dont see Grienke a good fit here anyway, especially with the Chicago Media.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
"for starters there is this thing called a NTC for Fukudome"
You hate Jim Hendry!
not sure how you can get that out of my post
but it does explain how that “easy trade” above by magicblue is not so easy
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
whew
i thought so, but wasnt sure…Al really needs to hurry up with that sarcasm font
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
But the money frees up next off-season
I look for Hendry to be throwing it around like a sailor on liberty….
So what if the Cubs don't steal bases?
The 2008 team stole 87 bases — below league average. They led the league in runs scored and won 97 games, primarily because they led the league on OBA.
Can’t steal bases if you don’t get on.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You sabermetric guys sre s lsugh...
…the guy won a f’n Cy Young for God’s sake. You need look no further than that. He’s hands down better than what we have in the rotation now or anything on the way up.
Can this off season get any worse?
sre s lsugh...not sure what happened there but...
it should say “are a laugh”.
Can this off season get any worse?
good god
I’ve never said he wouldn’t be better than what we have currently, I’ve never said I wouldn’t be glad to have him, I’ve never said he wouldn’t make us better. But why do we trade all of our top prospects for a guy who really doesn’t fill a gaping hole, doesn’t push us over the top, and guts the farm system.
by Bad Midget on Dec 19, 2010 1:44 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Because our so called ace is a fruitcake...
and we need a shut down top of the rotation starter. Maybe not gonna help this coming year, but, lock him up for a few years. Get ’em when you can.
Can this off season get any worse?
You realize that didn't address Bad Midget's questions, right?
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2010 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
he usually side steps well
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
actually I have to agree, it didnt address his question
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
He'd fill a gaping hole...
…the one that’s NOT, at present time, being filled by anyone at the top of the rotation. How’s that?
Can this off season get any worse?
Poor
Because the question is, IF THAT DOESN’T PUT THEM OVER THE TOP (which it woudn’t), WHY MORTGAGE THE FUTURE TO DO IT??
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2010 11:01 PM CST up reply actions
Why is it so hard to read the whole thing?
IF THAT DOESN’T PUT THEM OVER THE TOP (which it woudn’t),
Why?
There is virtually no chance that the Brewers can sign him past 2012. No reason that the Cubs can’t try then.
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 21, 2010 10:35 PM CST up reply actions
see Sb below
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
and a right handed set up guy was NOT
a gaping whole?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 19, 2010 11:11 PM CST up reply actions
No, it doesn't
No one in this part of the thread denied that the #1 spot is a gaping hole, but even if the Cubs had an ace, they likely woudn’t be contenders, and that doesn’t even factor in that they’d probably lose Castro in getting that ace, making the team weaker at SS.
So, riddle me this, Batman. How does that make sense? But go ahead and keep whining that they made the bullpen incrementally better. That makes a lot of sense.
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2010 11:00 PM CST up reply actions
You're right...you win...I get it...
…I now give way to the superior baseball minds of you and Cubbie-Tim. Your philosophies are spot on. They are obviously being used by the likes of the Phillies, Red Sox and the Yankees. You know…the “big boys”.
We’ll wait and see how our prospects will do in 3 or 4 years. If that doesn’t work out…well, there’s always the 3 or 4 years after that.
Just one more question for C-Tim…you asked…WHY MORTGAGE THE FUTURE?.
My question is this:
What future are you talking about? Isn’t it you who’d rather wait on the unproven than go with the ones that are proven? Isn’t that more of a risk? Or are you worried that spending on the proven will raise the prices of your seats at Wrigley?
Can this off season get any worse?
there is a time to go all in
and to get ONE bat that DOES NOT put us into WS contention is not the time, that has been said and every time you skip it
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
The future where one or two moves might make a difference
‘cause this ain’t it
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 20, 2010 6:13 AM CST up reply actions
It wouldn't have gutted the farm system
Did you see what the Brewers gave up? The equivalent of Colvin/Archer/Hak-Ju Lee.
That's all in hindsight though
It looks like the Royals wanted ML ready position players (specifically shortstop and center field) and they got that in Escobar and Cain. Most likely the Cubs would have to give up at least one of Castro and Brett Jackson.
Look at the offer the Nationals proposed. Espinosa, a toolsy shortstop, and one of the top young pitchers in the game in Storen.
Jackson and Castro are far superior to Escobar and Cain
It’s really not even close. If Moore was focused in on MLB-ready players at SS and CF that is unfortunate. But, in terms of overall talent, the Cubs could have beaten this offer without giving up either Castro or BJackson.
true
just remember to not underestimate the stupidity of Dayton Moore. The man who signed Jason Kendall to a two year deal.
and just cuz we can offer better talent
doesnt mean that the offer meets the other teams needs, and in this case matters based on a NTC (i dont know if we were blocked or not by Grienke)
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Obviously I know that
But the post I was responding to said that we would have to gut the system to acquire Greinke. That’s not really true.
Not they could NOT
Seriously every article on this trade makes it clear KC wanted a major league ready SS an CF. so you were going to trade
Castro and Colvin ( who really is not an CF but I am sure they would have taken him) plus say Carpenter?
No thanks.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 19, 2010 11:48 AM CST up reply actions
Did you read my post?
I acknowledged that Dayton Moore is an idiot. The whole point was that the amount of talent given up by the Brewers wouldn’t have “gutted” the Cubs farm system like Cubbie-Tim and Bad Midget are trying to argue.
The deal is a clear win for the Brewers, and if the same opportunity was presented to the Cubs I would hope they would have made it. It’s not like the Cubs dodged a bullet here by not making this deal.
simple
They were looking for a major league ready shortstop and center fielder. The “major league ready” prospects we have (that play those positions) are Castro and Brett Jackson. Since that would be ludicrous, the Cubs didn’t do the deal. The Royals found a major league ready shortstop and center fielder they liked, and they pounced on it.
I’m not trying to deny the Brewers didn’t get a steal, they did, or that the talent given up didn’t match Greinke’s abilites, it did. But I just can’t blame the Cubs that much for not making this deal. A-gon on the other hand….. not so much.
Huh
If you compare the players given up in the Gonzalez deal and this one, I can’t see how you can blame Hendry here, but not there.
Padres got better prospects than we have at 1B and P. Not to mention the Boston connection with their front office.
I don't know
I felt like the Cubs could have done a better job trying to acquire Gonzalez. Like many people have said, he just fit perfectly into our team. It seemed like a move that wouldn’t only help us now, but later.
Isn't the same true of Greinke
Minus the whole social anxiety thing, which I am not sure I totally buy.
You don't he has those issues?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Ugh
You don’t buy he has those issues?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
No
I’m sure he has those issues. I am not sure that those issues would prevent him from being successful with the Cubs.
That's the thing though....
..about these issues. He very well could be successful. Medical history shows he likely wouldn’t be though. Notjust his own history, but people with it overall. And if it went bad, all bets are off. Not just baseball performance, but his life in general.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
I think they're going to regret
giving up Odorizzi. The other three are no great shakes, although Jeffress could be a solid closer if he puts his problems behind him. As I and other said, Escobar and Cain fit immediate needs.
But Odorizzi could come back to haunt the Brewers.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 1:21 PM CST up reply actions
If the trade was Greinke for Colvin-Archer-Lee, the Cubs should pull the trigger in a second
Castro already covers SS and is not yet 21, outfielders you can get, and Greinke is already a top major league starter.
you are correct
he had a career year and won himself a cy young – have you seen what he has done every other year in the bigs? a career best ERA+ of 126…if he was able to put up 120+ last year then I think you could call him ace potential – until then, it was a guy who had a career year and in 2-3 years we may very well have forgotten about Greinke
by hansman1982 on Dec 20, 2010 12:10 AM CST up reply actions
Bad poster would be a better screen name
if you think Greinke isn’t worth the price tag, all due respect but stop typing. Immediately.
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
for the three thousandth time
I don’t think he’s worth the price tag FOR THIS TEAM. He have pitching depth. we have a quality starting five. We have guys in the minors that can come up and make an impact. Starting Pitching is not a problem in the Cub organization.
For a team that’s close to contention, of course I think Greinke’s worth the price, I’m not a dope. But the Cubs aren’t close to contention and making that move ensures what? An 83 win team?
Again, Zack Greinke is really, really good at baseball but it would be asinine to trade future assets for a two year rental.
Also, this isn’t even Haudricourt (brewers beat guy) reporting this.
by Bad Midget on Dec 18, 2010 11:59 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Over two hours since the original blog post timestamp...
…and still nothing on MLBTradeRumors site.
Add in the rumor disclaimer the blogger prefaced this story with, and the package being offered by Milwaukee at first glance seems to be a lot less talent than what KC was reported to have asked for from other teams, gives me pause that this is true. Time will tell though.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Rotoworld's take
“A Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel blog reports that the Brewers could be acquiring Zack Greinke from the Royals for Alcides Escobar, Jeremy Jeffress and Lorenzo Cain.
We have a very hard time believing there’s anything to this report, but since it’s all over Twitter, we can’t not cover it here. Expect denials soon. "
Viva la Cubs Révolution!!!
brewers fans will be able to rest easy knowing the brewers with be able to sit comfortably in 3rd place next season
He's my Hossa
HO-HO-HO-HO-HOSSA
i like you as a friend
He's my Hossa
HO-HO-HO-HO-HOSSA
by jesus christos on Dec 19, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
WAIT A MINUTE
I’M HERE IN KANSAS CITY…AND ME FINDS NOT ONE SOURCE CONFIRMING THIS.
I CALL BULLSHIT
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
its on ESPN now
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
First thing that came to my mind was
The return package for Greinke. Now whether this is true or not, I am shocked to see the Royals would give him up for a oft-in trouble pitcher, a 1-tool SS, and Cain. Perhaps all the hype was for nothing, but reports that Washington and Toronto were offering prospects like Espinosa and Drabek really baffle me now that I have seen this. Time will tell.
I don't see MLBTR, ESPN, SI, KCSTAR, anybody reporting this, 3 hours later. Bullshit.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Well maybe they all went to bed
It’s nearly 3 am on the East Coast. They don’t have people scanning the wires to see if a trade rumor hits after midnight.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 1:40 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah I think that's bullshit, too.
If there’s a trade of a Cy Young winner it’ll be on the news, internet or otherwise.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Well TSN is reporting it
although they’re just repeating the MJS story. No independent confirmation.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 1:48 AM CST up reply actions
It's also coming from
Andrew Wagner at something called OnMilwaukee.com, whatever that is.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 2:03 AM CST up reply actions
I love that they cite Yuniesky Betancourt as a player in the trade.
For those of you that don’t know about Yuniesky Betancourt, he’s just about the worst baseball player of all time, ever. He even won an Oscar, Worst Baseball Player of All-Time, Ever.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Yeah, but sometimes those lifetime achievement awards are all about sentimentality.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
Milwaukee needs a SS now
They just massively upgraded their starting rotation at the expense of weakening their infield and farm system.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 1:23 PM CST up reply actions
However
Kevin Goldstein of BP said he called the agents for Lorenzo Cain and Jeremy Jefress and they say they haven’t heard a thing.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 1:42 AM CST up reply actions
Its on ESPN now
Headline “Sources: Zach Greinke dealt to Brewers.”
So nothing official yet but if its true the Brewers suddenly have a very good rotation in Marcum, Gallardo, and Greinke
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
The ESPN link
Looks like it is for 5 players. I’m a bit surprised in that there wasn’t a top prospect involved. I’m not an Escobar believer (BLou’s rants never convinced me) and Cain looks ok but nothing special.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5935586&campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
It seems clear that if the Cubs had wanted to "match" this offer
or even make an offer, it had to include Castro because the Brewers wanted an MLB ready
SS or 2B. in addition it most likely would have had to include one of Archer & McNutt and then most likely another good prospect or two. I don’t know how many folks here would be willing to give up Castro for Grienke besides Easy Ed.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
Bull
Castro is light years ahead of the Escobar. No way we would have to give him up. We could easily beat this package and yet we didn’t again. Let the Hendry defending begin!
I'm not a Hendry defender.
But this one doesn’t piss me off like failing to land Gonzalez.
Well...
No real reason to get pissed off about letting your division rivals score a 27 year old ace pitcher for next to nothing.
Greinke has some serious qualifiers.
After MB, I’m a little gun-shy about acquiring players who’ve struggled with pressure in places that are far less pressure-packed than Chicago.
Also, the Cubs don’t seem to have the $13 million needed to pay Greinke in 2011. I know, I know — the Ricketts are cheapskates!
I don't think that is true about Greinke
The pressure in KC wasn’t what gave him problems. He just had a medical issue that he needed to get over. Comparing Greinke to Bradley is pretty silly. They couldn’t be more different.
A "medical" issue????
He has a social anxiety disorder, which is far from being classified as simply a medical issue. He expressly shouldn’t/doesn’t want to go to places like New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia or Los Angeles. I doubt it mattered one whit what the Cubs could offer Kanas City for Greinke, he would refuse to go. A place like Milwaukee or Toronto is much more his speed.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
To what? That he has these issues?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/11/03/if-zack-greinke-gets-traded-it-wont-be-to-new-york/
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
I hadn't seen that
Oh well. It was still a great deal for Milwaukee. Greinke’s gonna kick our ass for at least 2 years.
I don't understand why you feel that way
Greinke is a pretty awesome talent. He also didn’t require nearly as good of prospects as Gonzalez. I think Hendry failed more here than with Gonzalez.
Easy answer.
The Cubs have organizational depth when it comes to pitching. They don’t at first. Gonzalez also would have filled the lefty slugger role the Cubs have been looking for (seemingly) for decades.
Also — and we discussed this below — Gonzalez arguably could have been fit into the team budget for 2011.
So, you are looking at fit
My thought is that Fielder is pretty close to Gonzalez, and is a FA. Gonzalez also would have certainly cost our top 3 prospects. Greinke apparently would not have.
Yeah, maybe I'm not as angry about this as I should be.
But I think Gonzalez is a better player — and will age better — than Prince Fielder.
Gonzalez is a better player
But, not that much better. And acquiring Fielder won’t gut our farm system. Truthfully I would rather have Fielder + the prospects we would have given up to acquire Fielder than Gonzalez.
One plus of this Greinke deal is that it seems almost certain that Fielder will reach free agency now.
Not me.
Unless Fielder could be had for fewer than five years.
But I understand your point.
Maybe the answer would be to up the yearly and cut the years
5/$125M might get the job done and stay out of 7-year contract la-la land. Pay a guy up-front and be done with it instead of going through the lingering death of the back years of a long-term deal. As an example, 5/$100M for Soriano would have been easier to handle than the deal Hendry offered.
I think that's a tactic the Dodgers have employed on occasion
Pay a higher yearly average but for lesser years. Furcal comes to mind when he signed that $39M/3yr contract. I’m pretty sure he had higher total $ offers out there but they were for more years.
I think the Dodgers had another example of this more recently but the name escapes me – a pitcher maybe?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
And it looks like what the Phils did for Lee
They did have the advantage of his past tenure, but managed to get out the door without being on the hook for 7 years.
not sure how much it played into things
but lets remember the team he walked away from the offer of (NYY) happen to be the same fans who spit on his wife during the playoffs. I would believe tht did play into things somewhat no matter what was said in the media
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
But the Rangers were in with serious $$$ and no state income tax
And I believe that all Rangers fans did to his wife was worship her as a goddess.
I do think the Phillies’ locker room clinched the deal, but it sure didn’t hurt that Lee could say his annual salary is higher than Sabathia’s.
i think a big part of the decision
was the starting 5 in Philly with him vs the rotation in Texas with him. Hands down, the Phillies one trumps that, and should mean more chance of winning another WS or three..
I was kinda surprised he did leave Texas seeing as Nolan Ryan wanted him to stay and thought very highly of him
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Gonzalez and Fielder
Fielder might be a better hitter, but you have to give the defensive edge to Gonzalez. Fielder is also younger by two years.
But damn, that body scares me on a long term contract. He very well could eat himself out of the league.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 1:27 PM CST up reply actions
You could be right
especially after he’s under contract. I don’t think its a given though. He’s looking contract yearish:
Maybe his next contract should include a weight clause.
We don't have...
Organizational depth of 27 Yr old Cy Young winners that make only 13 million. But hey we have an 18.5 million dollar a year master of meltdowns leading our staff. Brewers just got dangerous right before our very eyes.
Staff with Greinke, Gallardo, and Marcum. A lineup with Fielder, Braun, Hart.
We’ll be battling the Astros and Pirates to stay off the bottom of the NL Central because we have the worst ownership/front office in major league baseball.
Royals..
Don’t have 135 million to spend on payroll either.
by cubsluver22 on Dec 19, 2010 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
But the Royals are in the AL central, Hoss
The Cubs don’t get to match up against them in a pennant race, much as they much like it.
That argument doesn't make sense.
If the Cubs could have chosen between Greinke at $13 million and Z at $18.5 million, they would have chosen Greinke.
it is why BCB is losing credibility
too many posters who jut want to bitch and moan, and use the same act time and time again to bash
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 19, 2010 11:09 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
its sad to be honest
i remember when that wasnt the case here.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
So, instead of bitching and speaking our minds...
…you’d rather have us scream “happy, happy, joy, joy” over something as unessential as signing a middle relief pitcher with a history of health issues? Or just keep our thoughts to ourselves over how lame this organization is being ran? That would get pretty boring, wouldn’t it? The bitching and moaning is what makes it interesting and keeps people (at least me) coming back. If you wanna swap hugs n kisses, then I would suggest one of the national social networks. BCB is for people to voice their opinions. Sorry, if my opinion rubs you the wrong way. I’m not sure, but, I’m thinking this is just what Al had in mind when he created this site…people discussing issues and agreeing and disagreeing in a non-vulgar discussion. Some people believe this team will totally suck in ‘11…some don’t. What’s really bothersome is…some don’t care.
Can this off season get any worse?
there is a difference between discussing something
and bitching about it to the point your fingers bleed. I dont expect everyone to agree, but there is a point where someone can bitch so often that when they have a good case it gets lost in the shuffle with the rest of their bitching for the sake of bitching. I will use BLou as a perfect example, he often had some great input and made great points, he knew baseball and was a good poster until you read the typical insult towards people, causing his every post to be trashed and all the good insight lost.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Just because someone says...
“this management is the worst in baseball” like cubsluver remarked, it isn’t necessarily a personal insult to any ONE person. It’s an opinion. One that many here agree with. Maybe it’s over used, but, they keep giving us reasons to over use it, don’t they? Now, if they say something like “so and so is about an idiot and he needs shot in the head” then I’d say boundaries have been crossed. Everyone here wants the Cubs to win. I, for one, have waited a long, long time for it to happen and want it to happen NOW. Some people want to wait it out…that’s their choice. There’s the rub. Thus…bitching back and forth. Tell me it’s not gonna bother you that the team on the other side of town will be in a pennant race the entire season, while the Cubs appear to be gearing up for the 2013 season. It’s acceptable to some…not acceptable to others…like myself. So, we’re to just sit and grin and say “wait til next year”? Laughingstocks…and that DOES piss me off enough to bitch.
Can this off season get any worse?
if it pisses you off to the point it seems to
you should stop following it. the Cubs and baseball in general should be for entertainment purpose not something that makes your blood pressure so high you have to be concerned.
if you have such a problem with every move, then stop watching each move for your own well being.
to complain about the Wood signing in multiple threads is not only hilarious, but shows ignorance to what the move was, bringing a true leader into the clubhouse, and bringing a fan favorite home, not a move expected to propel the Cubs into the WS. Any fan with minimal understanding of the game knows this and acknowledges it as well.
and no, if the Sox are 162-0 it will only piss me off 6 times, the 6 times we play them. Otherwise i do not care how they are doing unless we meet them in the WS.
I also understand that the Cubs are letting it ride while some big contracts roll off the books. this inst what i want to see, i want a team that is competing at the highest level possible, but with the debt that the Ricketts took on to purchase the team, finances are not limited and i accept that. Do i like it, no of course not, of course I wanted to see AGon in Cubbie Blue, but when he went to another team, I am not going to hold it against them like a stubborn mule for the coming days, weeks, and months, since that is pointless. If i did, i would see that i need to stop following and walk away.
and btw you bring up age so many times, it is becoming redundant. I do not care if you are 12 or 112, and to be honest, the more times you seen them fail, the easier it should become, kinda like a boxer taking a punch, eventually you become numb to the pain.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 19, 2010 7:27 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Not to mention that Wood fills a VERY
Important need for the Cubs. If Kerry Wood where left handed OF there would be no point in signing him despite everything else, but he is right handed set up guy, which is EXACTLY what the Cubs needed.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 19, 2010 7:50 PM CST up reply actions
ironic is many here were saying if they got Wood for $3m or less
it would be good to sign him, he signs for half that and people still bitch about it. I wish i understood how some people can live in a negative mind set 24/7
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
I don't get it, either
but a lot of them seem to hang out here.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 8:07 PM CST up reply actions
I know...
I have the same problem with trying to figure out how people can become ecstatic over something, that in the big picture, means nothing. I guess we all have our little quirks.
Can this off season get any worse?
one thing i give you credit for
you side step well
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
meant to say
finances are not unlimited
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
just curious Ed, did you have a response?
you continue to vent while side stepping this. I am curious your thoughts
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Side stepping what?
Ok…let’s break your response down…
My blood pressure is 125 over 80, which I think is normal. Just had my yearly checkup last week, as a matter of fact. Thanks for your concern tho, doc.
I’m not sure I was complaining about the Wood signing as much as I was fascinated by how much people view it as “the second coming”.
If the fact that the White Sox have a better season, again, then the Cubs doesn’t bother you in the least, then I’m not sure how to respond to that.
I also understand that this season will be one for allowing contracts to expire. It is what it is. My fear is that when they do expire, your boy, Jim Hendry, will get another chance (3rd or 4th time?) to rebuild this team.
As far as the age thing…52…retired after 30+ years with same company. Point being…life is short. Been waiting…seen 3 different owners…not sure how many managers…a few superstars…a few pains in the ass…2 or 3 decent teams…1 or 2 really good teams…bottom line…still waiting on next year. I’ll continue to drink the kool-aid…like my folks did…like Ernie, Billy and Fergie are doing…and how the late, great Ron Santo did.
Eventually…even in spite of poor management from above, maybe they’ll win it all…someday. When and if they ever win a World Series, I hope I’m still above ground and coherent enough to celebrate it.
I hope that satisfies your curiosity. I’m a fan who wants to see a winner…however they do it…PERIOD!
Can this off season get any worse?
Very few people view the Wood signing as a second coming, Ed.
People are happy about it, it’s a decent deal, and we needed help in the pen. That’s about it.
I think you’re getting overly annoyed at the happiness because you opposed the signing believing (for some reason) that the Cubs categorically should look forward and not back.
Had Wood received too much money, your fears would have been justified and the happiness from some BCBers wouldn’t have been warranted. But $1.5 million for a relief pitcher who could have made 8 times that elsewhere? That’s a win.
I know it was a good signing, el...
…I’m not one to look a gift horse in the mouth. He’s a relief pitcher…no more…no less. I just haven’t put the “legend” tag on him as others have.
Can this off season get any worse?
I think ...
you’re keying on a few overly excited comments by Wood loyalists. But you are entitled to your opinion.
which does happen
with many things on BCB, we have all been guilty at one time or another of it, myself included
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
It was a good deal and I do like having Wood back and he will improve the team
But in the end, it’s just 60 innings. While a 1B who would have posted 40 HR and a .950 or so OPS and an honest-to-god #1 starter got moved without the Cubs being a player.
No those two guys would not have made the 2011 club a winner. But they would have made it better and both are young enough to have prime windows that run to at least 2015 or 2016. The Cubs draw 3 million people a year, paying inflated ticket prices. Yet they appear content to play dead in improving the team because ownership can’t “afford” players in the market who could start to form the core of a real challenger in a couple of years.
And guess what – the 2011-12 off-season when all the contract expire won’t be any different. Or it may feature desperate efforts to sign lesser players. Damn, I wish someone in this organization had a plan or at least a clue.
by ClarkFan on Dec 21, 2010 4:24 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Your last graph is a bit too fatalistic for my tastes.
We’ll see what happens. If the team isn’t fairly good in 2011, Hendry will be gone. Mark my words.
If it is good, odds are Hendry will deserve to be back.
I know, I know — what’s fairly good, and who decides? I’m holding out hope that the Ricketts won’t be dumb or cheap on that point. I could be wrong.
is it really fair to minimize the impact just because the # of innings is (relatively) low?
I understand it’s only 60 innings compared to the 200+ that a good starter will reach, and is obviously way less than an everyday position player.
But chances are, a large portion of those 60 innings are going to be crucial ones, arguably with the game’s outcome in the balance.
Is there a way to look at the # of games impacted and do some comparison shopping there?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
this
and the mentoring he may offer (i am interested to see if he is able to as some here expect ). if he can help the young pitchers around him while locking down some quality important innings, it could be a much bigger signing than we think.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
I don't think they are contenders, either
But to bitch about Wood is analagous to complaining about your job when someone compliments your car. One has nothing to do with the other.
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2010 7:19 PM CST up reply actions
Of course, that never happens at other team sites
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2010 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
Same can be said...
Who turn a blind eye to how horrible this team is being ran, over valuing piss poor players and defending terrible signings.
by cubsluver22 on Dec 19, 2010 12:42 PM CST up reply actions
From the players, to the manager, to the FO, to the owner
There really hasn’t been much to be happy about lately.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
Their not spending
140 million a year to be losers…we are! They’re not on a 103 year losing streak. They have a new ballpark.
by cubsluver22 on Dec 19, 2010 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
The Cubs had no chance at Gonzalez
San Diego is filled with ex-Boston front office people. They knew who they wanted and got them.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Please provide evidence ...
showing that the Cubs had no chance to get Gonzalez.
No chance is a little strong
But Boston definitely had an advantage. I am not sure even our 3 best prospects could have topped that offer.
I say no chance
Read the article and then say the Cubs really stood a chance.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/joe_lemire/12/04/gonzalez.trade.ap/index.html
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Perhaps you did this elsewhere and I just haven't seen it yet, but...
…what kind of package would you have come up with that would easily beat the Brewers offer?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
theres a pretty big difference between escobar and barney
He's my Hossa
HO-HO-HO-HO-HOSSA
by jesus christos on Dec 19, 2010 3:23 PM CST up reply actions
Well that sucks.
Even if the Brewers lose Fielder afte this season, their rotation will be nails for the next 3 years.
I wouldn’t have given up Castro, but I wonder if BJackson, Lee and 1 of Cashner/McNutt/Archer would have gotten it done. Seems like a better overall package than what the Brewers traded.
Oh well, these prospects better pan out.
by JSB on Dec 19, 2010 8:37 AM CST via mobile reply actions
It could be a "better package"
( and personally I would not have done it), but it is a question of matching the Royals need. Reports are filled with what the Royals asked for from other teams and what they wanted and it always included an MLB ready SS or 2B. If the Cubs really want to pull off a trade it is going to have to be with a team interested in very good pitching PROSPECTS.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 19, 2010 8:48 AM CST up reply actions
I don't necessarily buy that
I wasn’t upset about the Adrian Gonzalez deal, that seemed like a package we couldn’t match. But, the Royals are at least a couple years away from contending. I don’t see why they would have taken a worse package just because Escobar has already proven he can’t hit MLB pitching.
Well since this is widely reported by every major outlet
I would believe it, but if you think you know more than ESPN, SI, etc. be my guest.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 19, 2010 9:04 AM CST up reply actions
Well, he's an idiot then
The Royals are several years away from contending. No reason to hold out for MLB ready players.
i think that's somewhat consistent with Moore's past
he’s continually over-looked overall talent for a specific player he wants or covets. It appears this time it was a position he wanted filled.
Moore’s FA and Trade history has been pretty ugly:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/05/dayton-moore-gm-trade-history.html
he happens to have a tremendous draft and scouting team that has helped him keep his job because the Royals have been hitting on most of their top picks
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 19, 2010 9:18 AM CST up reply actions
Fair enough
Still really frustrating. It also doesn’t seem like the Cubs made any serious offers. Greinke was a guy that I really wanted. At least with Gonzalez there is a credible replacement available next year in FA. The FA list for pitchers the next couple years is awful. The Cubs better hope that one of Cashner, Archer or McNutt develops into a TOR pitcher, because I don’t see how the Cubs are going to acquire one otherwise.
we have no idea what the Cubs offered
there were reports early on that the Cubs were one of the team interested, so I assume they made some offer but we haven’t heard anything on it. You’re just assuming the worst
The Cubs if they don’t develop one internally will still be able to use these guys as trade chips. There are still SPs who are going to be available (its the nature of the structure of the game right now). FA SP’s are the most expensive thing out there so teams either lock guys up young or have to move them as they approach arbitration. If teams make mistakes in spending too much to lock them up (spending too much of their budget), they then have to move on from them.
Ideally we develop them internally, but looking at the FA list isn’t the end-all to acquisitions for SP.
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 19, 2010 9:49 AM CST up reply actions
I missed those reports
You’re right that pitchers become available at fairly regular intervals, but rarely ones that are so young and so good get acquired so cheaply.
This isn’t the end of the world, and in the end it might be best that the Cubs didn’t acquire Greinke. But it is still frustrating to see a division rival make a great trade. Patience for 2012-2013 is great in theory, but harder in practice.
Because they need someone to play SS in 2011
Not in 2013.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 1:28 PM CST up reply actions
wow, that's a TERRIBLE package of talent
for greinke. i find it really hard to believe they couldn’t do better than that from the rangers, yankees or…………….cubs. escobar is wildly overrated. cain is nothing special. the pitchers aren’t top prospects. unbelievable.
Royals fans agree with you too
Moore seemed to be more concerned over getting a major league ready CF and MI over getting the best possible return.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Slightly OT, the brilliance of King Felix's agent
It was reported that Hernandez has a limited NTC where he can list up to 10 teams. Instead of the traditional list of teams the player likely did not want to go to, Hernandez just listed to top 10 markets. This gives him maximum leverage in any proposed trade. I don’t think he is too worried about being traded to Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Oakland etc.
I am surprised someone did not think of this before.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
greinke had a NTC too
and so the package the royals took from the brewers could have been the best package offered from a team that wasn’t on greinke’s list. from what i have seen reported most, if not all, of the large market MLB team’s were on greinke’s list though that may not have been strictly a leverage play on his part given his history.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 9:50 AM CST up reply actions
Grienke had recently agreed to a trade with ANY team
He wanted out.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 19, 2010 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
reports out now
suggest that greinke refused a trade to the nationals before the trade to milwaukee was made so i think the “i’ll go anywhere” reports were erroneous or just a ploy by greinke and his people to generate interest and speed up the process.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 10:20 AM CST up reply actions
regardless
the reports that greinke would agree to a trade with ANY team were either untrue, exaggerated, or just spin.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
That's true
I still don’t understand why you are so eager to defend the Cubs. Considering the trade the Brewers just made, it makes sense why Cubs fans are upset.
not defending anyone
just saying, it’s pretty likely the cubs were on greinke’s 15-team NTC list and that he wasn’t going to approve a trade here anyway.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 11:19 AM CST up reply actions
Other players have done this
This isn’t new.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
New Report
No Jeffres. Just Escobar, Cain, Odirrizi and PTBNL. That’s straight up highway robbery.
http://twitter.com/si_jonheyman
Ugh. Sickels had Escobar as a B+, Cain as a C+ and Odirizzi as a B- last year. You cannot tell me we couldn’t have bettered that package. Probably even without giving up Brett Jackson.
Seems like Colvin, one of our top P prospects and Lee would be about equal here.
Could the Cubs have afforded Greinke?
I know we could post 2011, but the guy is set to make $13 million this year, isn’t he?
As one of the leaders of the Hendry-Should-Have-Acquired-Gonzalez brigade, I’m less perturbed by the Cubs’ failure to land Greinke. Beyond the price tag, I wonder if Greinke could have handled the Wrigley spotlight.
That's probably true, but they should have figured out a way to fit Greinke
Pitchers that good that don’t become available for this cheap very often. ’
Also, you don’t think Gonzalez is going to be making close to $13 million this year when it’s all said and done? I bet he gets an extension soon that tears up this year’s deal.
That's something I wasn't really sure of regarding Gonzalez.
Would he take $5.8 million this season and then six or seven MORE years at $120 million or just six or seven years at $120 million?
I’d take the first scenario, personally. But maybe I’m wrong … ?
He has to buy groceries in 2011, too
Seriously, it is pretty common for the acquiring team to toss some $$$ into the front end of these trade-and-sign deals, too. And cheap has not been the Red Sox style.
that would be consensus view
BUT it doesn’t matter if that’s not the Royals view. If the Royals are putting a premium on getting major league ready SS and CF, then our offer would’ve had to significantly top it in terms of overall value (which we still could). If the Royals are saying they ONLY want a major league ready SS and CF, well then we have Castro in a deal or nothing, which i wouldn’t do
the royals reportedly were asking for MORE than Drabek + Snider from the Jays, which is light years ahead of this package, so there’s a big disconnect here with what the Royals reportedly wanted from other teams and what they got from the Brewers
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 19, 2010 9:52 AM CST up reply actions
There is no accounting for stupidity
Why the hell Drayton would be trying to fill slots in this trade when his team is years away from contending is beyond me. Makes Hendry look good.
i agree
but from a Cubs fan perspective its one of the reasons i’m not killing the Cubs for not making this deal. The reports on what they wanted from everybody else is so far from the value they actually received i’m wondering if Dayton just got tunnel-vision on guys he liked. He does that all the time with former Braves org guys (Francoeur, Farnsworth, Gregor Blanco, etc)
The Peter Gammons tweet that the Fergosi told Moore the one guy he had to get if he traded Greinke was Cain kind of reinforces my theory
if that’s the case, there isn’t much we could’ve done… which ultimately sucks
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 19, 2010 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
After the inital anger just based on how little the Brewers gave up, I am coming around
The truth of the matter is that Greinke doesn’t totally fit our window (2012-2013) as well as perhaps another pitcher (Josh Johnson?) that might come available sometime in the next couple years.
One other bright spot is that Fielder is almost certain to reach free agency now.
the interesting thing here is the Brewers have gone all-in
on 2011
They have Weeks and Fielder as FA’s next year they may not be able to retain now (Fielder almost definitely) and they now have the worst farm system in all of baseball (i think)
Now they could turn around and trade Greinke next offseason to try to replenish, but if they contend this year they won’t be doing that. So then their foundation is Greinke/Marcum/Yovani/Braun and little else
I think its the right move for the Brewers, but could leave them thin after this year
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 19, 2010 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
I agree that it was the right move for them
The thing is that small market teams really can’t contend every year. Apparently they made the judgment call that the Lawrie/Odorrizzi wave of prospects wasn’t good enough to sustain a contender, so they went all in for this year.
Supposedly they also haven’t given up on re-signing Fielder, although that seems like a long-shot. Also they must have made the judgment call that Cain and Escobar weren’t going to become much more than above-average player. I really like the trade for them.
Jefress has been told he's the PTBNL
Apparently the Royals want to check out his medical records first. Plus, they want to see if when he flies to KC, he actually uses a plane.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
the cubs
are trying to cut payroll.you dont do that by adding a pitcher who makes 13 mill. we just lowballed a franchise player like wood who thankfully took it. we have to hope these kids coming up are as good as they say because that is the direction the the cubs are heading like it or not.
Yeesh, it's gonna be a loooooooong season
Until Keith Bogans is taken out of the starting lineup, it's Tom Del Thibodeau
Yay...way to go Hendry...
Let your division rivals get that much better why you do nothing. But hey we have a Kerry Wood!
is it Hendry, Ricketts, the Royals
wanted what we were not going to send them, or Grienke had us on a list of teams he didnt want to play for?
I know its the “in thing” to blame Henry for anything and everything, but unless we wanted to get rid of Castro this trade likely doesnt get accepted by the Royals, and that is if Grienke accepted being a Cub (a variable we do not know)
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Considering Greinke's emotional problems,
I’m not sure I’d want him in Chicago, anyway.
For far too many years, the Cubs seem to have had players who fold like a cheap tent at the first sign of postseason adversity. Not sure Greinke could handle playing in any major market, let alone this one.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
That could be why the Ricketts kept Hendry - he makes a useful scapegoat for their priorities
Like maximizing cash flow and paying back loan. This is starting to feel like a classic LBO – strip mine the company for cash flow to pay back the debt.
I used to like him...
But enough is enough. We have absolutely no plan or vision. I thought this year we would be having a down year while waiting for contracts to come off the books. Well that’s not the case either as Hendry is still busy backloading deals etc. He’s letting 1 solid player after another pass by in the trade market. He’s truly clueless.
by cubsluver22 on Dec 19, 2010 12:52 PM CST up reply actions
hahahaahha
How are they gonna backload a 1-year, $1.5 million deal?
I’m not a Hendry fan, but you need to know when to draw the line between reasonable criticism and out-right speculation.
by elgato on Dec 19, 2010 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
greinke had no trade protection
and i’d be very surprised if the cubs weren’t on the list of teams he could block a trade to so all this hand-wringing might be a bit of a moot point.
Greinke isn't...
mentally stable enough to play in Chicago anyways. He’s a good pitcher, but we’ve seen fragile psyches here recently… and that didn’t end so well.
STOP COMPARING BRADLEY AND GREINKE
They are nothing alike. Bradley had a 10-year history of being a huge problem. Greinke had 1 bout with mental illness.
but they are alike
they both have documented mental health issues that might be of some concern to the cubs as a prospective employer.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
That's like saying that Mark Prior and Roy Hallady are alike
Because both have had serious arm injuries in the past.
that's a cute straw man argument
and if halladay had ever had a “serious” arm injury it would even make sense.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 10:43 AM CST up reply actions
The two "documented mental health issues" are far different.
It’s not a strawman argument at all.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Dec 19, 2010 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
straw man argument
from wikipedia:
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.1 To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
Thanks for the dictionary definition.
It’s still not a strawman argument.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
i used the dictionary definition
because his switching of the argument is the definition of a straw man argument.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 11:53 AM CST up reply actions
Switching arguments doesn’t necessarily make it a straw man. Personally, I think he made a valid point. Its a matter of degree. I was stressed out 30 years ago and saw a counselor a few times. Am I the same as a chronic schizophrenic who is commanded by angels to kill police?
unless you are being ironic
i’m just adding you to the list of people that don’t understand the concept of a straw man argument.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 1:09 PM CST up reply actions
It wasn't a straw man argument
It was an analogy.
A straw man would have been if I had said, “Oh you are saying that Zack Greinke is going to be physically unable to pitch immediately upon arrival in Chicago.”
let's go over this
you said greinke and bradley are nothing alike.
i said, that’s not true and told you why i believed it to be untrue.
you countered with an “analogy” alleging that what i said was the same as saying something else entirely, about two different people, that wasn’t even factually correct. you didn’t address my point at all. you took what i said and tried to twist it into something else. by definition, that’s a straw man argument.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 2:11 PM CST up reply actions
That's not a staw man argument
I didn’t twist what you said into something else. I made a comparison between what you said and something else.
It’s not a strawman, and I don’t know why you keep insisting that it is.
You know what I can't figure out?
A Brewer fan friend is here to watch the GB game, and he’s bitching that they don’t have enough pitching and need to trade Fielder. WTF?
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2010 7:21 PM CST up reply actions
Don't ask me to explain!
I’ve gotten to the point where I just go to the local radio station websites and listen to any interesting interviews they have archived.
Can you explain:
- How Woodson drops an INT in his hands
- How Nelson drops a pass in his hands
- How Flynn throws it right to the DB and FOUR Packers fail to tackle?
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2010 9:16 PM CST up reply actions
Ah, Jones didn't run the route
Doesn’t explain the tackling
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2010 9:16 PM CST up reply actions
Coleman, Archer/McNutt and a PTBNL off the low prospect list
But I bet Brewers management doesn’t see it the same was as SB’s friend.
Gee, nice strawman
See what I did there?
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2010 7:42 PM CST up reply actions
I screwed that up
I thought Halladay had Tommy John surgery right when he broke in with the Jays. I should have used someone else like Francisco Liriano, Josh Johnson etc. instead.
The point still stands. One mental health issue is completely different than a 10+ year career that has been marked with problems at every stop along the way.
not being his doctor
i have no idea what greinke’s mental state is now or will be in the future. i know he was/is being treated for social anxiety disorder and/or depression. i have no reason to believe that greinke’s “1 bout with mental illness” was an isolated incident or that it is no longer an issue. it’s pretty well accepted that playing in a large market (new york, LA, chicago) is more demanding from a mental/emotional standpoint than playing for a smaller market team (KC, milwaukee) and the cubs haven’t had great success in their recent past with players that have struggled with mental health issues. bradley and greinke don’t have to be 100% identical for the comparison to be apt. chicago is likely a bad fit for greinke for the same general reasons it was a bad fit for bradley.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 11:39 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
YES YES YES YES
It would seem that many people here are not at all familiar with societal anxiety disorders. They are never “cured”. He’ll have to deal with it on some level his entire life, not just while he’s a professional athlete. Chicago is NOT the place for someone like him.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Well, looks like we won't have to worry about it anyways.
Still the comparison between Bradley and Greinke is dumb. Bradley’s track record is much worse than Greinke’s. We don’t know if Greinke can handle playing in a higher-stress environment than KC.
Bradley has demonstrated throughout his entire career that he is a disaster.
you seem intent on ignoring
that bradley is five years older and has been in the league four years longer than greinke. we know more about bradley and his issues because they have had more time to manifest themselves. it’s great that greinke has pursued treatment, but that doesn’t mean he is cured.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
No one knows for sure
But the risks are huge for him.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
and i'm not trying to say that
but greinke’s mental health is a factor the cubs have to consider when assessing if he could be a successful major league pitcher for this team, in this market. i’m not saying that greinke will mirror bradley’s career (as an example) but i’m also not willing to dismiss his history as a one time, non-repeatable incident.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 1:19 PM CST up reply actions
OK, I agree with that.
After Bradley, the Cubs are probably more gunshy regarding players with mental issues.
But Greinke almost certainly wouldn’t have waived his NTC to go to the Cubs — so this is all pretty moot, isn’t it?
by elgato on Dec 19, 2010 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think that's the beginning and end of the discussion
Probably could have saved about 150 posts. Not sure why that wasn’t brought up at the beginning.
I'm guessing
That many here either didn’t know or chose to ignore Greinke’s issues, and wantedt to bash Hendry instead.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
sounds about right
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
When I saw this thread
it had 177 posts, and not one gave any tak to Greinke’s mental health issues. It was all about how the Cubs could have done better.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
No I'm not ignoring that at all
I actually think the Liriano-Prior comparison is good. We know that Liriano has had arm problems in the past, we don’t know if he is going to have them again. We know that Prior is totally useless.
We know Greinke had some issues in 2007. We don’t know if they are going to crop up again. We know that Bradley is totally useless.
That’s why I think it is unfair to compare Greinke to Bradley.
The guy has anxiety issues...
do you know what anxiety issues are? Him pitching in a market like Chicago or New York would be a disaster waiting to happen.
Anxiety issues meet pennant race.......
Pennant race meet anxiety issues.
Isn’t also being reported that Grienke blocked a trade to the Nats. I have no problem with the Cubs taking a pass on Grienke. Talented? Obviously. Issues? Uhh YEAH!!!!!. He was incredibly so so last year. Everyone rushes to say he was bored on a last place team….Like the way Felix was? You mean the bright lights and big city ways of Milwaukee is gonna smack him between the eyes and invigorate him. The Yankees wanted no part of him and they’re as desperate for good pitching as anyone. Totally stayed away. Cubs should too
He wants to stay away from big media but will do well in a pennant race? I’m gonna have to see it before I believe it.
Continue your pity party if you want. You seem to enjoy it. If you do, Cubsluver22 has a really good joke about Kerry Wood. I’m just not that dis-swayed by this morning’s news.
"I can't be held responsible for what I personally tell my goons to do...."- C. Montgomery Burns
I'm sorry
but bringing a player with anxiety/depression issues to the North side seems like a bad deal for Grienke and the Cubs. This is a major market with fans carrying a 103 year old monkey on their back.
Milwaukee is a relatively no pressure place to play that would be a prime candidate for contraction if Selig was not the commissioner.
A prime candidate for contraction?
Milwaukee has drawn 3 million fans (or close to it) the past four seasons. Considering the size of the Milwaukee market, that’s pretty darned good.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 11:50 AM CST up reply actions
I have not been a Hendry
guy the last two years, in fact he has been poor. But I can not call him out on this one.
Cubs would have had to give up 3 top Prospects, B Jaxx most likely and Archer. I pass on this one. The “Cubs are doomed” and the “at Least we have Kerry Wood” crap is getting old.
by Grockcubs on Dec 19, 2010 11:06 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
Grienke to the Cubs would've been awful
he’s too much of a head case to perform at any level he did two years ago. Plus had probably would’ve blocked the trade since we’re such a big market…just saying.
Annos Catuli. Every Year.
by OldStyle_and_Ivy on Dec 19, 2010 11:46 AM CST reply actions
Greinke to the Brewers
could be worse. Zambrano’s contract expires at the same time as Greinke (end of 2012). Of all the teams that could acquire Greinke, the Brewers are probably the least likely to extend him. The Cubs young talent should take about 2 years to really arrive, so if Greinke does hit free agency it might be preferable to not pay the high price in prospects for the next 2 years and just pay him like Z (or slightly better) when the Cubs are actually contenders in 2013.
2011 is looking better and better
by Castro Por Presidente on Dec 19, 2010 11:59 AM CST reply actions
*Sigh*
There’s no reason the Cubs can’t contend every year.
There are no guarantees about 2013.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 12:03 PM CST up reply actions
I don't care about reasons why they should be contenders.
I care about how good the Cubs are. I don’t see them seriously contending until then. Sue me.
2011 is looking better and better
by Castro Por Presidente on Dec 19, 2010 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
Fine
I think you’re wrong, but time will tell.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
But Bruce, here's the thing:
Other than baseball’s-a-funny-game/you-never-know/that’s-why-they-play-the-games arguments, what makes you think the Cubs will be contenders next year?
Too early to say anything yet, eg
Let’s revisit this subject in spring training.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 12:55 PM CST up reply actions
OK, it's early.
But why are you so confident that moves will happen between now and then that will make this team competitive?
Again, I said
let’s wait until spring training to evaluate. I didn’t say I’m confident or not confident.
The bottom line is, there is no excuse for this franchise to try to contend every year. This is not a small-market team. Period.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 12:58 PM CST up reply actions
I don't get that argument
Just because they should contend doesn’t mean that they will contend. Can you acknowledge that poor moves in the past couple years have sufficiently hamstrung the organization that contention this year is unlikely?
Not necessarily poor moves
Moves that haven’t worked out? Perhaps.
I’m not throwing in the towel on 2011 in December 2010.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
Um, Milton Bradley and Aaron Miles weren't poor moves?
And JSB’s right — there’s a difference between should and will.
And, anyway, you said that you thought Castro for Presidente was wrong when he said he didn’t see the team seriously contending until 2013, and then said you think the Cubs should compete every season.
That would seem to infer that you think the Cubs will make the moves to contend in 2011.
I'm sorry, you're looking for Not Bruce to be consistent
or make any kind of sense?
He’s a cheerleader, nothing else.
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
Again, pretty funny
considering I was “lauded” for making a positive post on the Wood thread.
How miserable some of you are.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 2:02 PM CST up reply actions
They are defensible moves
Miles more so than Bradley.
Hendry has been extraordinarily unlucky with some of the moves he’s made.
I see no inconsistencies in any of the things I’ve said, eg.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 2:07 PM CST up reply actions
Shouldn't Hendry be held accountable for his performance though?
Almost every move made by a MLB GM is defensible. That’s a pretty low standard. I could make moves that are defensible. The question is whether I could make the moves that made my team a winner. Hendry has failed the last 2 years. And at great expense.
So if Hendry makes moves that
look good on paper (like most of the ones he’s made), and they don’t work out, whose fault is that?
The players? Hendry’s?
Everybody picked the Cardinals to win the division last year. Didn’t happen. Sometimes players get hurt, have sub-par years, etc.
And this franchise has some unique challenges, to say the least.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 2:19 PM CST up reply actions
And that's where ...
you give a GM a few years to field a competitive team. Hendry got one playoff appearance out of the Wood-Prior years, and two first-round exits after Trib Co. opened the checkbook.
I was actually fine with Hendry (not thrilled, but fine) until he made a series of terrible decisions after 2008.
You’re right that one or two defensible signings that don’t pan out isn’t enough to fire a GM. But there have been several defensible signings that didn’t pan out, and several others that could go up a notch and be classified as bad signings from Jump Street.
At that point, the guy in charge has to be held accountable.
They were not defensible.
Signing each guy might have been defensible — giving them mulityear deals was not. Also, how can you say that ‘PERHAPS’ they haven’t worked out while also saying that Hendry is has been extraordinarily unlucky? If he’s unlucky, it’s because the deals categorically flopped and didn’t work out.
You’re being inconsistent in that you’re assuming that the Cubs will make more moves to be competitive in 2011. There’s no way you can know that.
And there's no way
you know they won’t.
I guess time will tell, won’t it?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 2:16 PM CST up reply actions
Ah -- but that's the thing!
I’m not assuming either way. As currently constructed, I don’t think this team is more than a .500 club.
But the time-will-tell arguments are pretty meaningless, Bruce. They say nothing about why a team can seriously contend.
'As currently constructed'
If I’m contradicting myself, you’re doing the same thing, eg.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
No, I'm not.
I’m judging the team by what I know they will have in Mesa. You’re assuming they’ll add enough to be contenders — and that’s the difference.
You don't know what they'll have in Mesa
(unless you’re Jim Hendry in disguise), and neither do I. Spring training doesn’t begin for two more months.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 2:26 PM CST up reply actions
I'm done with this.
You’ve expressed certainty at their ability to contend — based on nothing other than wait-and-see comments.
Until I KNOW that the Cubs have added significant pieces, I’m not going to assume they’ll get pieces — when money is tight, let’s not forget — to contend.
Why is that so hard to understand?
It's an inane argument
The off-season is mostly over. They don’t have a lot of holes to fill. There is no reason to assume that the club is going to be overhauled to the degree that contention is likely.
The Cubs will add another starter.
But the best reason for optimism is that the Cubs play in the NL Central. Unfortunately, the division got tougher today.
Are you sure about that?
I don’t really think they need one. Considering what the Rays are supposedly asking for Garza, it would be disheartening if they make that trade.
I have no doubt ...
the Cubs are trying to acquire another starter. That seems to be the consensus from what I’ve read. My guess is an incentive-laden deal for Brandon Webb.
Off-season is mostly over? Really?
Then i don’t expect to see more than one or two trades and no free-agent signings the rest of the way.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 2:56 PM CST up reply actions
Come on
Sure there will be free agent signings and trades. But, probably not the kind that will propel this team to being a winner.
OK, whatever
Pick me the winning Powerball numbers next week, too, whilst you’re at it. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 3:00 PM CST up reply actions
Fine, eg, we'll agree to disagree
I wish I could be as certain as you.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
Getting Greinke would have given the Cubs a much better chance to contend in 2011.
Yet, you didn’t want him. That seems in conflict.
Are you saying the Cubs have enough now to “contend” in 2011? They don’t need to improve any more?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Not what I said at all
And Greinke probably would NOT have given the Cubs a better chance, because his aforementioned emotional problems probably would have been a handicap. Can you imagine the first time he gets booed off the mound at Wrigley?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 12:56 PM CST up reply actions
Are you kidding me?
You can’t actually be this thick headed, it’s not possible and still be able to log onto the internet.
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
OK
What are you, 12?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
I don't think
BoVandy understands anything but superficial points.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 2:05 PM CST up reply actions
you think he hasn't been booed before?
and can I infer from your above post, that you think the Cubs would be better off with Silva in the rotation than Greinke?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Are you making an argument, bh,
or are you being an agent provaceteur for the hell of it? I’m not sure what you’re trying to accomplish here.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
Well, you know I disagree with your expectation that the Cubs simply HAVE to contend every year
but in this particular instance, I’m putting on my NBF hat and trying to figure out how getting Greinke would NOT help the Cubs contend in 2011.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Because I don't think he can handle
the pressure of playing for this franchise.
And again, bh: This ain’t Pittsburgh or Kansas City. Some fans should stop acting like it.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 2:16 PM CST up reply actions
Not only that,
I doubt there are enough people going to games in KC any more to muster a substantial chorus.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 2:09 PM CST up reply actions
Actually, on the current management path 2013 is fast getting locked into .500 at best
Winning is hard to guarantee. Losing is a cinch.
'ace' to bed:
WAR leaders 2008-20101:
1. Halladay
2. Lee
3. Lincecum
4. Greinke
5. Sabathia
6. Verlander
7. Lester
8. Haren
9. Hernandez
10.Jimenez
he’s not only an ‘ace’ but a top 5 in baseball ace who’s younger than both Lee and Halladay and entering his prime.
A ton of that is made up out of his ridiculous 9 WAR season in 2009. It seems like an outlier to me.
how much would his WAR and Cy Young stats change if he were in a stronger division
like the AL East?
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
How much better...
Is it gonna be in the NL Central!
by cubsluver22 on Dec 19, 2010 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
which is the point
if he beat up on lesser teams, then it is the Cubs of 2007-2008 all over again, looked good on paper due to beating up on weaker teams in the division, instead of playing tougher teams ala AL East. Sometimes a player or team is the result of the teams they play, less their own talent so to speak
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Come'on
Look at Greinke’s game log from 2009. Then tell me that he only was good by beating up on bad teams. He had an unbelievable year.
You can say that you aren’t unhappy the Cubs didn’t make this trade. But the Greinke bashing on this thread is stupid. Guy is a really good pitcher.
i am not saying he isnt good
but that he does have an advantage on some other pitchers of having played against some lesser teams on a consistent basis
he was 10-4 against below 500 teams, i looked this up before making my comment. I know that wins and loses are not the best judgement of a pitcher, but it is one that those voting look at often (or so it seems).
I have said he is not what the Cubs needed at this point, and to send top talent (MLB ready, aka Castro and Colvin most likely IMHO) does not make sense for him. I could be wrong or right, time will tell, but that is my opinion
And I have not once said he is not a good pitcher, do not put words in my mouth please.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
He would have rejected a trade to the Cubs!
It’s all moot, Tim.
i know and have said that as well more than once
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Please note this, Tim ...
the next time you start writing (or even thinking) that I hate Jim Hendry. :)
should i make it my new sig line for easy reference?
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Not necessary.
Just note that I don’t criticize Hendry over everything or out of hatred, OK?
OK, but if he was 10-4 against losing teams, he was 6-4 against winning teams
While pitching for a .400 team, which was a .350 team in games in which Greinke didn’t get a decision.
Would the pressure in Chicago have been worse than needing to pitch shutouts to win?
the answer is:
between leagues you can expect about a 0.4 drop in ERA; between a very strong division and an average one (like the AL central) about a 0.1 ERA difference…
His 2008 and 2010 were near-ace levels
4.9 and 5.2 WAR. Considering his youth I think it is quite plausible that he is a true talent 5-6 WAR pitcher with upside for more. You can quibble with the “ace” term, but he is a top 15 pitcher in baseball and I doubt there are 10 guys I would take before him.
i'm still a little fuzzy
on how fangraphs figures that greinke’s 2009 season was a full win better than lincecum’s..
greinke 229 ip/2.16 era/2.33 fip/3.15 xfip/9.4 war
lincecum 225 ip/2.48 era/2.34 fip/2.87 xfip/8.2 war
admittedly, i’m splitting hairs by saying he’s overrated on that list but they seem to pretty clearly overvalue his 2009 season. so i think he’s more like a top-10 talent than a top-5 talent. he’s still good.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 12:56 PM CST up reply actions
WAR has a league adjustment, i believe...
that may account for some of the difference. if i’m starting a team from scratch, i don’t think i can come up with 5 starters i’d pick over him. Felix, Lincecum, Lester, Verlander…that’s about it.
really?
i think if you thought about it a bit more you’d come up with a lot more names.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
i'd throw in the discussion...
just using guys greinke’s baseball age or younger:
josh johnson, ubaldo jimenez, clayton kershaw, david price, stephen strasburg (even after the injury), matt cain, phil hughes, clay buchholz, mat latos, gio gonzalez, tommy hanson, john danks, max scherzer, chad billingsley, yovanni gallardo, cole hamels, trevor cahill, madison bumgarner, neftali feliz….
i’m sure i’m missing some.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 3:00 PM CST up reply actions
Odd list
I don’t really understand your list unless you are reading more into Greinke’s mental health problems than most. Again, I am basing this on pure talent.
No one on your list has had a good a season as Greinke, and most haven’t even come close.
YES
Johnson, Jimenez, Price
TOSS-UP
Kershaw, Strasburg,
PROBABLY NOT
Cain, Hughes, Buchholz, Latos, Gallardo, Hanson
HUH?
Gonzalez, Danks, Scherzer, Billingsley, Hamels, Cahill, Feliz, Bumgarner
I can’t believe you seriously would rather have Gio Gonzalez than Greinke.
i said they'd be in the discussion
if i was starting from scratch with a focus on youth. greinke gets marked down a bit for already being expensive and taking into account his off-field issues. i don’t know that i’d take gonzalez (for example) over greinke but i’d certainly consider him.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
If you factor in contract (I wasn't) your list isn't so bad
I still think you are underrating Greinke’s talent.
maybe
i think greinke is a talented pitcher, i just don’t know that i’d try to build a franchise around him. there are just a lot of guys i like more.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
Let's look at the bright side...
We now have the most talented farm system in the NL Central.
Where is our award?!
This is just plain stupid
We did NOT have what the Royals wanted (MLB SS & CF). While BCB may believe Archer. Jackson etc would have worth trading for Greinke we are not the GM of th Royals. You will have to wait for Fantasy Baseball to work on that stuff. I don’t think there is any need to denigrate Greinke to get that this was not a deal the Cubs could do. If you were willing to trade Castro and Colvin fine, but I don’t think anyone here was. It does not matter how you rate the deal and frankly a whole lot of baseball people think the Royals did just fine, what matters is what the Royals wanted and what the Cubs had.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
Not totally buying that
That’s the trade they ended up making, but they were investigating other deals. They really wanted Snider and Drabek from Toronto. Neither one is a SS or a CF.
I think the Cubs could have gotten the deal done without Castro.
There are 20 teams on the list...
….. leaving all small markets. Then it goes to 15 teams next year.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
So, isn't that really all there is to it?
Greinke wouldn’t have accepted a trade to the Cubs. It really doesn’t matter what Hendry might have offered.
Isn’t that the beginning and end of this discussion? Am I missing something?
You nailed it
As far as JSB….i’m not so sure.
That's what I've been saying
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
I've been jumping in and out of the thread today.
But, yeah — this seems like a lot of teeth gnashing over someone WHO NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN OK WITH A TRADE TO THE CUBS.
Please, somebody, correct me if I’m wrong …
You're right, eg, per (mostly) usual
He wouldn’t have been a good fit in Chicago. Now, maybe you can be pissed that he’s in the division now; that’s another matter.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 2:15 PM CST up reply actions
How do you even know this?
I have not read one rumor about either of the Chicago teams being on Greinke’s no trade list. When a team was reported to be on Greinke’s no trade list, it was reported on MLB traderumors.
Its certainly possible that the Cubs were on Greinke’s no-trade list since both the Brewers and Nationals were, but he waived the no-trade to go to Milwaukee because they were closer to contention than the Nationals (in Greinke’s view). I doubt the Cubs even got that far with the Royals, if the Cubs would have offered a package attractive to the Royals, then DMoore would have approached Greinke with the proposal, isn’t that how most of trades involving players with NT clauses works? isn’t that how it worked for DLee and Lilly in 2010?
You make it sound as if you have some inside information that Greinke vetoed a trade to the Cubs before a team would even ask a player whether he’ll waive his NT clause for team X or team Y….
The real crime here is that the Cubs for whatever reason
did not believe that Greinke or AGon were elite enough to include top prospects such as BJack, Cashner, Archer, etc….
A team is going to have to give up at least one (probably 2) of those players to get an AGon or Greinke.
I really, really, really hope these prospects pan out. They usually don’t, but maybe these few will.
I’d still rather have a known elite player than roll the dice with on the prospects panning out. Jim Hendry chose the latter, and I guess we’d better hope he’s right, but he’s usually wrong, so were probably screwed.
With 15 teams on the no-trade list ...
it’s almost impossible that the Cubs weren’t one of the NT teams. I don’t know this for certain, you’re right. But it’s an educated guess.
Also, the Cubs didn’t have the money to pay for Greinke in 2011.
Fine you know better than every profesional sports writer who
has written about this because you post on BCB.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 19, 2010 1:15 PM CST up reply actions
What writer has said that the Cubs would have had to include Castro to make the trade?
I also haven’t seen anything that says that the Royals only were considering offers with SS in them.
Frankly the Greinke no-trade clause is a better argument for why the Cubs couldn’t have made the deal. I’ll buy that.
Every writer has said the Royals wanted an MLB ready SS
Cubs don’t have one in the farm so it would have to be Castor, not brain surgery.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 19, 2010 3:16 PM CST up reply actions
That's not what "every writer has said"
every writer said that the Royals wanted “up the middle players” that were close to major league ready. That includes not only SS, but also 2B, CF, SP, RF, and C.
We have plenty of up the middle players that would have interested the Royals (they are also looking for catchers), Hendry just didn’t want to part with them (i.e., BJack, Archer, Casher). I’ll bet big money that if 2 of those players would have been included along with Chirinos and JJackson or CCarp. That’s two MLB ready up the middle players (Chirinos/BJack) a potential TOR starter (Archer or Cashner), and a potential 3-4 starter or solid BP arm (JJack/CCarp).
That’s a better package than the Brewers parted with. The only real difference here is that Melvin decided to trade talent for a known star and Hendry didn’t want to, twice, that’s the real story here
So Hendry is wrong when he trades away prospects
and he’s wrong when he doesn’t trade away prospects.
He’s wrong when he spends money. And he’s wrong when he doesn’t spend money.
Got it.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 6:45 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
What's your point?
In my view, Greinke and AGon are ELITE stars, perennial AS, potential future HOF caliber players that don’t reach FA very often. Hendry appears to believe that a few of our prospects are untouchables in trades for these elite franchise players despite the fact that both of them have team friendly contracts for 2011.
I just don’t support Hendry’s current point of view. Sure, it would be a blow to lose BJack, because he’s a 5 tool, up the middle player, that projects to be at least a solid MLB OF, or Cashner/Archer who may develop into TOR starters. I’d rather use them as trade bait for Greinke, AGon, or both…….
exactly what i have said here before
Cub fans have a double edged sword for Hendry and his every move. No matter what he does, most find a way to try and hang him for it
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
It's simple.
You CAN’T judge a GM that way. Sometimes he spends money well (DeRosa, Lilly, Lee), sometimes he spends money badly (Bradley, Kosuke, Miles).
To say that someone critical of Hendry can’t be upset about the Bradley signing but be fine with the Lilly signing — you’re being inconsistent! — is just nonsense.
And, Tim, you and Bruce have nasty habit of generalizing the criticism around here. Example: if I criticize the Kosuke signing, then ballhawk or JSB hates that signing, and, moreover, hates Hendry for spending.
Of course, JSB or ballhawk might not have said anything about Kosuke. But you two have your hackles of so much in defense of Hendry that you take all critics of Hendry as the same voice.
Stop doing that and the zen stuff you talk about so often will work better.
thats not what i am saying about the double edged sword
and it is true, Cub fans in general do have a double edged sword for Hendry. They (Cub fans, many on BCB, not saying anyone one person in particular) want him to spend like there is no tomorrow, while trading away all the kids in the farm to do so, but not trading top kids in the farm in the process with no care for tomorrow or what Ricketts has given him to work with. Hendry has made bone head moves, and a gamble like Bradley is a perfect example, but not trading everyone to get Garza, AGon and Grienke was not a bad move IMHO (even though i really wanted AGon), and not signing Dunn for what the White Sox did also was a smart move IMHO.
in my statement i am generalizing his moves and fans, since that seems to be what most fans , especially on BCB do quite often.
If the posts being commented to in various threads were not lumping them into one, I would not be lumping as well, its taking what I am given to work with and making the best of it.
That being said I agree 110% with you, that you cannot take all the moves and look at them as one argument, but you have to agree most often on here in particular, attack as one lump, so its a lot to try and make the same person see it another way.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
works for me
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
you kinda lost me there, elgato,
Are you, me and JSB still singing kumbaya or is it back to knives and bicycle chains…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Not at all.
I was just throwing some BCB regulars’ names out there.
My point is that some other regulars (Tim and Not Bruce, to be perfectly honest) often get their hackles up when one poster says something that contradicts another poster (or posters). It’s an annoying thing that happens on this site.
I hang Hendry when appropriate, and I cheer his successes when appropriate
the problem is that Hendry’s good moves have been rather insignificant, whereas his bad moves have been colossal failures.
Both you and NBF seem to believe each move the team makes is an isolated incident, and that viewpoint is at the root of the problem.
Hendry and the rest of the FO have no coherent plan for the future. I could go on and on and list point after point, but what good would it do? Both of you just kind of echo the same skepticism of observant fans viewpoints that aren’t really constructive, IMHO….
but you have to look at the moves as isolated moves for the most part
you cannot lump signing Fukudome, trading Dontrell Willis and resigning Wood as one thing (for example)
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
BJack is not MLB ready
and Cubs fans are consistently overvaluing Chirinos.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
A SP is up the middle?
You apparently think it means everything but 1B & 3B ( not sure why you left LF out if you were counting RF). The Royals wanted a MLB readySS and a CF and that is what they got. It is not for the Cubs or any other team to tell the Royals what they need.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 19, 2010 7:55 PM CST up reply actions
maybe RF counts when one of those insane shifts are done?
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Starting pitchers are up the middle players
I don’t know what to tell you. In fact, pitchers are the most important up the middle players in the major leagues. When a GM says he wants MLB ready up the middle players, pitchers are usually included.
Unless you can provide me with some link where DMoore says he was specifically looking for “up the middle POSITION players” (which I’m almost certain you can’t, since the Royals farm is in desperate need of impact pitchers), I stand by what I typed above
I’ve never heard of pitchers being included as up the middle players. I don’t follow other minor league systems as closely as i do the Brewers, but the KC fanbase is whining and stomping their feet because the pitcher they got is a likely 2 or 3 and he is the 5th or 6th highest pitching prospect.
I think the mistake you’re making above is that you’re talking about losing a top prospect for a premium player and even being willing to lose 2 for 2 stars, but you can’t because you’d lose 2 and more for 1 player.
He was actually looking for SS and a CF
Which is what he got. Again if you wish to ignore all the info that has leaked out be my guest. Would Moore have taken something else? Well the Yankee deal indicates he would but in that case you were talking a top 10 prospect which the Cubs did not have. We also know that he was the one who turned down the deal to the Nats because he said he wanted to go to a team that was willing to go for broke now, I doubt the Cubs would have met that criteria. We also know that Yankees who need a really good starter desperately were not willing to part with their top prospect.
Bottom line is that the Cubs did not match up well for Greinke for a lot of reasons most of which were not Hendry’s fault unless you want to blame him for letting Castro come up last year and not being willing to trade him.
If money were a key reason for the Cubs not being in the Greinke running, I would put that on Hendry, but since it is clear to me that they did not have what KC wanted , I am not putting this one on Hendry.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 21, 2010 1:39 PM CST up reply actions
They also got a reliever and a starting pitcher
In fact, the starting pitcher (Odorizzi sp?) is the highest rated of the 4 players the Royals received. Why do you keep ignoring the pitchers that were involved in the trade? Odorizzi was going to be one of the Brewers top 3 prospects in the newest edition of BA, he’s the best player in the package.
The Cubs had all of the pieces needed to get this deal done and didn’t, its as simple as that.
what about where you mention RF as up the middle?
that one lost me
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
LOL
that was you that mentioned RF as up the middle, not me
Seriously, do you even know what you type some of the time?
let me refresh your memory by posting your own post here and bolding RF for you
That’s not what “every writer has said”
every writer said that the Royals wanted "up the middle players" that were close to major league ready. That includes not only SS, but also 2B, CF, SP, RF, and C.
We have plenty of up the middle players that would have interested the Royals (they are also looking for catchers), Hendry just didn’t want to part with them (i.e., BJack, Archer, Casher). I’ll bet big money that if 2 of those players would have been included along with Chirinos and JJackson or CCarp. That’s two MLB ready up the middle players (Chirinos/BJack) a potential TOR starter (Archer or Cashner), and a potential 3-4 starter or solid BP arm (JJack/CCarp).
That’s a better package than the Brewers parted with. The only real difference here is that Melvin decided to trade talent for a known star and Hendry didn’t want to, twice, that’s the real story here
by magicblue on Dec 19, 2010 6:42 PM CST up reply actions
now you were saying about who posts and ready what???
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
reads******
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
My bad, that was a typo, it should have said RP as in relief pitcher, not RF
typed while slapping my own face
that makes more sense now
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Doesn't this pretty much describe everyone who posts here on BCB
starting with present company?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
There's a difference ...
between criticizing a manager over strategy and asserting that you know more information regarding behind-the-scenes trade talks.
But remember — Greinke had a NTC. So the rest of this is moot!
It's all moot really
I mean all we are doing is discussing. I have no idea if the Cubs could/couldn’t have gotten this deal done.
All I know is that on the surface, the Brewers made a trade for a player I very much would like to have had on the Cubs, and in my opinion didn’t give up a whole lot. That annoys me.
But have you (or anyone) seen that the Cubs are on his NT list?
Here are the NTC details per Cot’s
# limited no-trade protection:
* may block deals to 20 clubs in 2009, 2010
* may block deals to 15 clubs in 2011
Not that it matters anymore, but I’m curious if the year references are to the actual date or the season. IOW, at the time of this trade, was he under the 20 club restriction or the 15 club restriction? IMO, I think 2010 ends when the WS is over so anything after that would be 2011. And I saw the 15 club reference on more than one occasion in articles over the last month or so.
But again, the moot point here is whether or not the Cubs were on his list. Link?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
It's all speculation
People are assuming because he wouldn’t go to the Yankees, that he wouldn’t come to the Cubs.
Siiiiiiiighhh
You should really read up on scietal anxiety disorders.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
So you know for a fact that he wouldn't come to the Cubs?
It makes sense to me, but it isn’t a sure-fire thing.
Read this from Keith Law:
As for Greinke’s ability to handle a large market, if teams are using his mental illness as a way to gauge his “toughness” or makeup, they should be ashamed. Depression is not about being sad, anxiety disorder is not just a matter of being scared, and neither one makes a person “soft.” This isn’t a question of “he can pitch here, but not there.” That’s an infuriatingly superficial take on a legitimate medical issue. Since Greinke came back from seeking treatment, he’s thrown 773 innings in the majors with a 3.32 ERA and great peripherals. You’re never really cured of depression or anxiety disorder, but Greinke has had a long and successful recovery, meaning that concerns that he’d fold like a Japanese fan the moment he got to Capital City are embarrassingly ignorant.
If he wouldn't go to NY, Bos or DC
Why in the world would he come to Chicago?
http://mlb-facts-and-rumors.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22297882/26480517
And like your link says, no one is ever really cured. Law can make all the assumptions he wants, but unless Law is a doctor or has intimate familiarity with the illness, he’s talking out his ass.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Well, let's see who the other 15 teams might be.
We know they’re not KC, Toronto, Milwaukee, Texas, the Angels or Detroit. If you take the Yankees, Boston and Washington off the list, that leaves 21 teams for 12 spots.
Assuming the Pirates, Marlins, Twins, Mariners, Rays and Indians aren’t big market-teams, that leaves 15 teams for 12 NTC spots.
I think it’s safe to say that the Cubs are on Greinke’s no-trade list if he’s trying to avoid big-market clubs.
we dont know is Milwaukee was one
he may have waived it to go there
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
OK, fine.
Sixteen teams for 12 spots. The larger point remains, Tim.
i was just picking the fly shit out of the pepper
and i am curious to see the entire list if it becomes pub
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
so was Washington
and he said no to them. The Yankees were and he came out and said he’d be okay with pitching for the Yanks. NTCs are just a way for the player to have leverage over his situation, most of these guys will go play anywhere, if the other team will pick up the last option year or renegotiate a longer term contract, or so on and so forth……
Actually, I heard he said ok to Bos but still no to NYY
which endeared me to Greinke even more… ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
i read that as well
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Are you a doctor?
That article also says he was willing to waive it to go to a winner. Supposedly he was willing to go to Boston.
You are making just as many assumptions. He is generally pretty well informed on things, so I assume that he has done some research.
I bet I know more than Law does about it
Having multiple family members having to deal with it, and having a couple of them commit suicide.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Oh, boy.
Um, we might want to scale this back, gentlemen. Could get nasty around here real quick …
It's why I jumped in so quick with it here when I saw the thread
..but no way do I go chapter and verse on it. I’m not going to get into any big thing over it here.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
i have seen a partial list
Zack Greinke’s no-trade clause allows him to block trades to 15 teams. That list includes the New York Yankees, Boston Red Sox and Washington Nationals, according to a major league source.
However, Greinke could be traded to the Texas Rangers, Los Angeles Angels or Detroit Tigers without his permission.
The Kansas City Royals are open to moving Greinke, who has two years and a total of $27 million left on his current contract.
The Nationals would like to trade for a starting pitcher and have shown interest in both Greinke and Tampa Bay’s Matt Garza.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Per MLBTradeRumors
Zack Greinke can block trades to 15 teams and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports reports that the Yankees, Red Sox and Nationals are among them.
3 down, 12 to go…
btw, I remember seeing in the last day or so where he said he’d waive the NTC to go to Boston but not NYY.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Aha! Here's the definitive moot point...
…at least until someone outmoots me.
According to Rosenthal
Greinke, sources say, has told the Royals that he is willing "to go anywhere."
Sounds to me like it had gotten to the point where the NTC really wasn’t a factor.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
As noted above:
http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman/status/16513631600517123
Doesn’t look like he was willing to go anywhere.
Fair enough, but I don't think that's the end all.
Still haven’t seen anything that says the Cubs were on the NT list. And per your link, he “approved” the deal with Milwaukee, so it would seem the Brewers were on the NT list.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
As I noted above ...
given the teams we know were on his NT list. the teams that weren’t, and the small-market labels usually bestowed on Pittsburgh, Florida, etc., it’s almost impossible to think that the Cubs weren’t on his NT list if it was filled with big-market clubs.
I just don't understand the stubbornness...
…. of some people to admit the Cubs were on his list. It makes complete sense for that to be the case, especialy given his mental health situation and the fact 20 teams were on that list.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Has Greinke or his agent ever said the NT list is a big-market list?
I agree that the Cubs would be on the list IF it was filled with big-market clubs, but having that “IF” in there makes it hard to say that the Cubs are definitively on the list.
IOW, what makes you think his list is full of big-market clubs – just the anxiety thing?
Just for kicks, I drew up my own list of 15 teams I’d have on my NTC. Plenty of small and big markets on that list.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
We know Boston and New York were on the list.
And we know that players often put big-market teams on NTs to expand leverage AND we know he has anxiety issues.
As I said above, it’s an educated guess. But it is educated.
if it were a bet in Vegas
odds would be Chicago Cubs were on the list for those exact reasons
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Exactly.
Also, I wouldn’t be shocked if the Cubs made the list because teams know about the increased pressure surrounding the drought.
As Joe Torre said after the 2008 NLDS, “The Cubs were playing with 100 years of history on their backs.”
Maybe Greinke doesn't like the East Coast?
I agree that it is likely that the Cubs were on the NTC list. But, it hasn’t been reported, so I don’t think it’s 100% guaranteed.
Well, he's from Florida.
Born and raised in Orlando. I guess it’s possible he doesn’t like the Northeast.
The fact that he rejected a trade to the Nationals — which is pretty low-key as baseball towns go — did make me pause.
I think he wanted to go to a winner too
He probably saw the Nats as a slightly better version of the Royals.
Exactly, eg
I think that’s the last place someone with an emotional/mental health issue probably wants to play.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 2:59 PM CST up reply actions
I think we're going around in circles here and I'm probably partially at fault...
…but let’s say the Cubs are on the list, which is still a guess, but as you say it’s an educated guess and I can accept that.
That still doesn’t preclude the Cubs from having had a chance to trade for Greinke and/or making this whole discussion moot, does it?
All it means is back whenever he signed his deal – and I believe after every year – when Greinke drew up a list of who he wanted to be on his NT list, he included the Cubs.
Doesn’t mean he wouldn’t have waived it had KC approached him with an offer they liked from the Cubs.
I guess I’m being a bit obstinate about this because it seems like everyone is speaking/thinking for Greinke under the assumption that they know what’s best for him and what he can or can’t handle. Yes, he’s had some health issues of the mental kind. He’s also sought and received treatment for it and apparently it’s been successful.
So until I hear from Greinke (or his agent I suppose) himself saying that even with medication and support he couldn’t deal with the pressures of being in the big city lights, I’m not going to chalk up his NT list to his anxiety issues. To me, it’s simply a list of teams he wouldn’t want to play for without his permission.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Dec 19, 2010 3:14 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I've kinda stayed away from the whole ...
can-he-handle-Wrigley thing. But given his price and the likelihood that he would have had to waive his NTC, I just don’t think the Cubs had much chance of getting him.
yep
(pause while elgato, JSB and ballhawk all get up and start singing kumbaya…)
not sure who that is in the background about to cry – Cubsluver perhaps?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
That's quite a photo, bh
I’ll refrain from additional comment. ;)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 4:51 PM CST up reply actions
We don't know
that’s all the wanted from Toronto.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 1:34 PM CST up reply actions
No we don't
This is all an exercise in futility. Dayton Moore really is an idiot if he was only going to make a trade where he got back a SS and CF that were ready for MLB.
My favorite comment from the Evil BCB
“We might need another Farm Aid benefit concert at Miller Park. But for our farm.”
Keith Law's take
On the player’s the Royals got:
What Kansas City got back is bulk, and fit, but not impact. There’s no single anchor prospect in this deal, a player who’d be a top-15 pick in a draft or who’d be a top-5 prospect in the Royals’ stacked system. And three of the four guys the Royals got back (assuming for now that Jeremy Jeffress is the fourth piece) have some major concerns that impact their projected long-term values. When you’re trading a once-in-a-decade franchise player with two years left on a reasonable contract, you have a rare opportunity to add one top-shelf, impact prospect to your system, and the Royals employed a different philosophy entirely.
On the deal overall:
What this trade reminds me of most is the botched deal the Royals made when they last had a franchise player on the block. With Carlos Beltran, the Royals decided they would prefer to fill holes on their roster rather than maximize the value of the return, insisting that they receive a catcher and a third baseman in any deal. They pulled off a trade, acquiring John Buck and Mark Teahen, both of whom played several years at controlled salaries for Kansas City, but neither of whom was ever a star or even above-average, and who are both gone now with only Chris Getz to show for it. The inclusion of Escobar and Cain in this trade is too reminiscent of the inclusions of Buck and Teahen, and while I do like Cain’s raw ability, I don’t see him turning into the impact guy the Royals should have gotten for one of the best pitchers they’ve ever developed.
Law is an idiot
and a long time Milwaukee hater. I think it makes more sense to assume the exact opposite of what he says.
Didn't Law say...
… that the Brewers got the better of the deal?
"Don’t belittle entire fanbases or neighborhoods…simply because they are within proximity to some people who don’t operate (or look) the same way you do." - AndrewJStone 6/29/2010
So Milwaukee got screwed?
Because Law is saying it was a bad deal for KC.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 6:04 PM CST up reply actions
That's pretty silly
While I think Law is very arrogant, I do think he knows what is talking about generally as far as prospects and value. He probably doesn’t like the approach that Melvin usually uses, just like with Hendry, which is why he usually criticizes those clubs. But, he is pretty fair and will point out when they make good moves.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
He is very critical when he disagrees with a move. But he is pretty fair-minded. And he loves baseball.
No, no, no...
I think the whole idea that he is “fair minded” is pretty wild. He’s extreme, snarky, condescending and not even really a scout. He sometimes complains about having to watch baseball. I think he majored in economics. What he seems to be into is things like puff pastry.
Levine and Muskat already said the Cubs couldn't afford Greinke's contract....
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
"My favorite food is Macaroni and Cheese, from the blue box." Geovany Soto
"They played like son of a guns......lord have mercy." Mike Quade
If that is the case
that is nonsense. I could see not mortgaging the future by sending 4 prospects KC’s way, but not able to pay is BS.
Guess what Tom, a winning franchise cost money.
no thanks
He had one strong season and I think that’s going to be it. 10-14 and a 4+ era, we have enough of those guys already. Hold on to the prospects so the cubs have That abikty to Make a move midseason or start building the franchise thru the farm instead of throwing money at it. Good no deal. Next.
he was a stud
For one season. I don’t see himn as a top Guy. Just my opinion but one good season is All I see.
You aren't looking closely enough
He was a very good pitcher in 2008 and 2010 as well. If he’s not one of the best pitchers in baseball, he is surely a huge upgrade over anyone on our staff currently.
Just for the record
Dempster has posted a higher WAR than Greinke in 2 of the last 3 years. Don’t get me wrong, I would’ve LOVED to have Greinke, but I still say I wouldn’t have gutted the system for him, especially if KC demanded a ML ready SS as has been stated. And if you can use Greinke’s amazing ’09 as a sign of what he is capable of, why is it not fair to use his ’10 numbers to say he may never touch those numbers again?
by thebluecrew1908 on Dec 19, 2010 4:11 PM CST reply actions
That's not true
Dempster:
2008: 5.2
2009: 3.8
2010: 3.5
Greinke
2008: 4.9
2009 9.4
2010 5.2
Dempster was slightly better in 2008. Greinke was much better the last two years.
there's a discrepancy
between fangraphs WAR and baseball reference’s WAR. dempster has been better than greinke according to b-r’s WAR and ERA+ in 2 of the last three years.
by circuitclout on Dec 19, 2010 4:29 PM CST up reply actions
I assumed he was using Fangraphs
Fangraphs bases theirs on FIP. I think BBR uses tERA.
Most people here use Fangraphs WAR.
I was using BBR
My bad, I should have linked or cited the source. But much better isn’t fair, I’d still argue that Dempster was better last year, with a better ERA and K/9 and similar IP and WHIP. Do I think Demp is the better pitcher? of course not. I am a huge fan of his, and would’ve loved to land him. I’m just trying to make the point that I do not believe it is worth gutting our system to get a pitcher that isn’t going to put us over the top, and may never touch those ’09 numbers again.
by thebluecrew1908 on Dec 19, 2010 4:48 PM CST up reply actions
That's fair
By most measures Greinke and Dempster were pretty comparable last year. I guess, I think that Greinke while maybe not repeating his 2009, has a chance to be a 6 or 7 WAR pitcher again. I don’t see that potential with Dempster. I am also a big fan of Greinke, and think he will do very well in Milwaukee.
Agreed
Also, a part of me would really like to see him make the play-offs. That way he could pitch lights out and silence all the critics who say he can’t do it on the big stage or handle pressure situations. Sadly, that would mean the Brewers are in the play-offs, and no part of me wants to see that
by thebluecrew1908 on Dec 19, 2010 5:10 PM CST up reply actions
until the brewers package Grienke and Fielder
to the Cubs for our bad contracts and under performing players :-)
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Greinke fan...He is a fighter!
I hope he does well. Many “critics” above target his inability to handle pressure as reason for why he didnt choose Chicago or why we dont want him. I say the Cubs siren song sounds like a big fart. What does this org have to offer a good player at this time? Experienced coaches? Proven tight knit team? Looks like a train wreck to me.
Waiting for the plan.
There goes one over the fence...a Tru-Link fence.
by truelinkfence on Dec 19, 2010 5:30 PM CST up reply actions
As Kenny Williams might say,
the plan is to win.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 6:49 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not too bummed about missing out on Greinke
like I was Gonzalez, but I am concerned that he is now in the division. To me, this means three teams in the NL Central are far and away better than the Cubs. The Reds and Cardinals are already much better. And now the Brewers have put together a solid 1-2-3 in their rotation to go with their offense. I think this division just got a lot stronger.
With all that being said, the Cubs are definitely not contenders in 2011. Say what you want about me pre-judging this team before they’ve played a game, but their rotation is relatively weak compared to these other three teams. And their offense is definitely not good enough to contend. I don’t see one strong part about the Cubs (compared to the Cards, Reds, and Brewers) except for maybe the bullpen—which can be so unpredictable that it doesn’t even matter.
Hendry better be getting a plan together for next off-season. And that plan better not consist of hoping all the prospects work out—because they won’t—we can hope for maybe one or two. I’ve been fine all along with the Cubs rebuilding this off-season/season, but come 2012, they better be looking to add a frontline starter and a big time first baseman.
by mic on Dec 19, 2010 4:21 PM CST reply actions 4 recs
Freeze these comments in amber
and read them again in September.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 4:39 PM CST up reply actions
We might as all sign off and not come to this site if we can't say what we think of this team.
This will be a sub .500 team in September. I’d prefer it not be, but it’s what I think.
Baseball may be a “funny game,” one where you have to “wait and see what happens,” but there is still a lot of room for reasonable prediction.
If it is, I'll donate $25 to your favorite charity
if it isn’t, you’ll donate $25 to mine. Put up or shut up.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 6:48 PM CST up reply actions
And you can say what you want
I’ll say this: No fan base on earth revels in their misery, and loves to be as miserable, as fans of the Chicago Cubs. None.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 6:54 PM CST up reply actions
I would say the fans of the Red Sox and Yankees like to revel in misery
just as much as Cubs fans. The difference is that they don’t have as much misery to revel in.
The problem with Cubs fans is the “lovable losers” stigma. The world thinks Cubs fans don’t really care about baseball and that they only want to win because of the “100+ year curse.” They don’t know that we actually care about fielding a good baseball team.
My post was only stating that I want some sort of plan going forward. I’m optimistic about 2012 so I think it’s OK to be pessimistic about 2011. At this point your bitching about people bitching shtick is so exaggerated and redundant. You were saying the same stuff last year when people expressed concern about the team. I’m guessing you like waiting for the “I told you so” moments. And I’m also guessing that when you finally get your “I told you so” moment, people won’t really care. We all want to see them win—if we don’t think they are going to win, we have the right to say so. Get off your high horse.
No high horse here
Just think it’s pretty funny and sad at the same time.
And if you think it’s exaggerated or redundant, you haven’t been reading these threads very closely.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 8:06 PM CST up reply actions
and if he wasn't reading the threads closely, he has one up on us
and is more sane for it
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
"You never know" isn't an opinion
And doesn’t really add much to the discussion. If you think the Cubs have a good chance to be contenders next season, then why don’t you say it?
You know what doesn't add much to the discussion?
Saying a team has no chance four months before the season begins.
In fact, that basically shuts down the discussion.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 6:47 PM CST up reply actions
How does it shut down the conversation?
We can still talk about why they aren’t any good, how they can get better in 2012 etc.
I don't know about you, but I
don’t like to sit around and bitch all day.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 7:06 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not bitching
Sure, some people around here do that. But it isn’t impossible to have a pessimistic view of the team’s chances and not bitch.
Could be done, I suppose
Then again, a lot of people here bitch when they win, too. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 7:10 PM CST up reply actions
So you'd rather have optimistic, completely irrational threads than sane ones?
It sucks that the Cubs are at this point, and are likely years away from even contending for a division, but I have yet to see someone rationalize how the Cubs could end up being a decent team this upcoming season.
No, balanced threads
There’s no balance here. Saying things like they’re “years away from even contending for a division” is patently absurd.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 20, 2010 1:52 PM CST up reply actions
Really?
What’s the argument otherwise? I don’t see how it takes any less than two seasons to catch up with Cincinatti, Milwaukee or St. Louis.
I don't think they're that far behind them, if behind at all
It’s going to be an interesting race, methinks.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 21, 2010 12:59 AM CST up reply actions
you're not going to get supporting evidence
NBF will lambaste others for supporting their opinions, painting everyone with a broad brush as dire pessimists as opposed to separating out those who are being pragmatic and being logical from those who are cliff-jumpers.
He’ll then attempt to end the argument with a “its too early” statement that is always relevant until the Cubs are officially eliminated. He’ll then recognize no fault in his inability to have a broader perspective of where the Cubs are in a cycle or how they relate to the rest of the league. The season will end and then rinse, repeat with the next offseason.
Throw in a mix of entitlement about how the Cubs should always contend without any perspective of how their roster/payroll construction compares to the rest of the league along with a heavy hand of condescension about how others should post/think and you have the recipe to NBF’s BCB tenure
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 21, 2010 9:32 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Painting with a broad brush.
Bruce does this at times, but so do a TON of regulars on this site. There are many who don’t separate those who are being mildly optimistic with those who are being totally naive. Note that I’m not necessarily referring to you, DCF.
I mentioned this below, but I’ll detail the most annoying thing on BCB with a hypothetical example. It has to do with that broad brush.
Say the Cubs acquire Matt Garza next month. The overwhelming response around here is positive, but I, JSB, ballhawk and Cubbie-Tim look at what the Cubs gave up and express reservations, or don’t comment at all.
Then, when Garza is 2-7 in July, I criticize the trade again, and get slammed by somebody. Why? Because that person remembers the mostly positive reception the trade got in January.
The names in this don’t really matter, so no offense to anyone is intended (real names were easier than saying “BCBer A”, etc.).
Point is, many of us would be best served to avoid broad strokes.
by elgato on Dec 21, 2010 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
agreed
although i think there’s a difference between the following:
1) making a broad comment about the perceived broad opinion of the board.
For example:
“I was one of the few who was against the Cubs signing of Marlon Byrd”
If my perception is that most viewed it as a positive move and I am in the minority, I think its a fair way to express an opinion
2) directly assigning someone based off of one comment into a group and assigning the group ideology then to them
For example:
Poster ABCD says the Cubs aren’t likely to contend this year, thus I label them a negative nancy or an eternal pessimist or the type of cubs fan who revels in losing, etc.
I think #1 is something that is realistic and needed for communication in a broad message board type setting, I think #2 is detrimental to communication as instead of developing a history with another poster you’re putting one on them
Look its extremely hard to keep track of everyone else’s opinion on the site. As much as user names are unique are brains aren’t coded for memory to attach hundreds of user names to hundreds of different thoughts, so in some respect generalization and stereotyping is going to be the easy way out for our brain’s to figure things out. Posters just need to be careful when assigning that generalization or stereotype their (brain is coming up with to try to help remember) in a post to someone else.
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 21, 2010 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
110% correct
and rec’d
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
This is exactly what I've noticed out of NBF.
I was trying to coax some supporting evidence out of him (similar to the way my high school composition teacher did it).
I’m willing to give an ear to some supporting evidence if he’d give it. I’ve said many times that I don’t think the Cubs will contend, but in a couple cases I’ve had bursts of temporary optimism—like the signing of Pena (which I was excited about for some reason). But every time I ask an optimist BCBer why they think the Cubs will contend this year, I don’t get an answer.
I'm probably center-pessimistic.
The Cubs have some upside going into 2011 and they play in a mediocre (though improving) division.
If they were in the NL East or the AL East, there’s no hope at contending next season. But the Cardinals, Reds and Brewers have flaws. Almost all of the many question marks surrounding the Cubs have to turn out to be net-positives for the Cubs to be good enough for those flaws to matter.
That’s about as positive as I can get. I do think that saying “the offseason isn’t over” when the Cubs seemingly have next to zero roster flexibility is a bad reason to be optimistic.
No evidence I would cite
would change your mind. So it really isn’t worth it.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 21, 2010 1:04 PM CST up reply actions
Give it a shot
I was commenting to a friend of mine who is a Reds fan the other day that the Central was going to be a great 3-team race. He asked me why I was already counting the Cubs out and said it wouldn’t shock him that much if they won it.
I don’t agree, but maybe there is a case to be made.
The problem is contending may require a time machine
The 2007 Carlos Pena
The 2006 Carlos Zambrano
The 2008 Ryan Dempster
The 2008 Aramis Ramirez
The 2007-2008 Aflonso Soriano
Now these guys may all improve on 2010, but having most or all of them hit those historical peaks seems unlikely.
Like Ring Lardner said, “The race is not always to the swift nor the battle to the strong, but that’s the way to bet.”
I just said I was open to hearing supporting evidence.
Then I gave an example of some supporting evidence that might have changed my mind.
You are a lot more negative than the rest of the BCBers you accuse to be.
I'm not bummed out about Greinke at all
and I think everyone around here is massively overrating him. He ain’t Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee.
Gonzalez does bother me, although I hold out slim hope that the BoSox will fail to sign him. Or better yet, that the Cards fail to sign Pujols.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 6:08 PM CST up reply actions
I'm a little bummed out
I’m not bummed out that the Cubs didn’t trade Castro or BJax for him. I am dissapointed that a division rival acquired him without giving up much. Any way you spin it the Royals didn’t acquire an elite talent (maybe could make a case for Odirrizi, but he is pretty far away still).
I wish the Cubs would have been able to have acquired Greinke for what I view would have been a comparable deal.
Honestly, though, I don't think starting pitching
is this team’s weakness.
How many games last season were 2-1, 3-2-type games?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 19, 2010 7:16 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think its a weakness either for this season.
But down the road, they are obviously going to need 1-2 top of the rotation guys.
Agree
I didn’t want Greinke for this year. I wanted Greinke for 2012 and 2013. If we can get a comparable pitcher between now and then, good on Hendry for waiting. It just seems the price on Greinke was pretty low.
If we could somehow pry Josh Johnson from the Marlins? Now that would be sweet.
If he makes it
to free agency, you can get him in 2013. Which, if he stays with the crew, is a pretty good gamble. However, the question will be, if the crew start to stink with him, would they trade him away to Boston or New York in 2012 to try to recoup some of what they spent to get him. They certainly are not going to trade within the division If that happens, I would envision those teams signing him to an extension before he hits free agency.
"All I want is food and creative love" - Rusted Root
by TheRiot Police on Dec 20, 2010 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
I agree with you
We need offense, especially at first base, which is why Adrian Gonzalez would have been so perfect.
We’re putting a lot of faith in a guy who hit .196 last season. On the other hand, I don’t know what our other choices were.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 9:13 PM CST up reply actions
Which is another reason ...
failing to get Gonzalez was SO much worse than failing to get Greinke.
Ummm, yeah - you can argue that some of the minor league pitchers in the system COULD be as good
But as for power-hitting 1B, yes, the Cubs have no bananas.
It feels like the team will be trapped into offering a silly contract to Fielder, or a silly contract to Pena if Fielder ends up being unavailable.
hands down, AGon is the bigger loss of the two
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
This should add some sellout games to Wrigley when the Brewers are in town
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 19, 2010 5:00 PM CST reply actions 4 recs
LOL, this message was approved by the Ticketts family and the Cubs organization!
Its A Way of Life!
win or lose, they’ll still come to booze!
by magicblue on Dec 19, 2010 6:57 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
"Ticketts family"
Typo or your new nickname for them?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 19, 2010 7:58 PM CST up reply actions
I read Ticketts before
Especially during the Wrigley renovations discussions.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 20, 2010 12:02 AM CST up reply actions
I posted a fanpost earlier
apparently it was the 3rd post of this. it got deleted before i could say sorry. i have a bad habit of not checking fanshots and only fanposts for kind of big news like this.
back to the topic, i am glad we didnt muster up an offer like this. Let our guys develop. We are too deep in our mess right now that we just need to be patient. We have so much talent down in the minors. Who knows, maybe we have our own ace down there somewhere.
no worries, Lweb23
lots of people here make fanposts and fanshots that could have been included as comments in an existing fanshot, fanpost or even a front page post. Newbies, long time regulars and even administrators. Doesn’t appear to be any rhyme or reason to it, so I wouldn’t worry about it.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
this
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
So much talent in the minors?
That’s a bit of an exaggeration. We probably don’t even have a top 10 system.
No, we don't
We’ve got a really deep system, but we really don’t have any guys who are likely to be superstars.
Kansas City probably has the best farm system in the past 25 years right now. Of course, the team in Omaha might be better than the team in KC.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 9:16 PM CST up reply actions
Deep system without superstars = aspiring to 81 wins
Remember, a guy has to be a star in the minors to be a strong, useful MLB starting player.
That's not what I said
We have several players in the minors who could end us as quality Major Leaguers. We don’t have a lot who could end up as all-stars (Well, we do have a couple, but there are good reasons to think the chance of hem reaching that level is low)
It’s also a little tough to be critical of a farm system that just produced Castro, Colvin and Cashner last season. We don’t have another player who is likely to be as good as Castro. We do have some that could be as good as Colvin and Cashner.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 19, 2010 11:06 PM CST up reply actions
Two More Nuggets from Jon Heyman
Apparently Greinke was willing to go to NYC, and the Royals were willing to trade him for Jesus Montero and Eduardo Nunez (3B/SS/2B).
So looks like Greinke was willing to go to a big market.
Even if that is true
It would have been a monumental risk for Greinke to go to New York.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Confirmation from Jeff Passan
A little humility might be in order after shouting over and over again that Greinke would never go to a big market.
Baloney
A little reality check is in order in that going there would be a disaster.NYC was most definitely on his no trade list. If he changed his mind he’s a an idiot and possibly self-destructive.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
I'm glad that you know what's best for Greinke
As compared to say maybe Greinke, and most likely his family and doctors.
by JSB on Dec 20, 2010 1:34 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Didn't read up on societal anxiety disorders, did you?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Those are pretty strong words from someone who isn't a doctor and doesn't know Greinke
If he changed his mind he’s a an idiot and possibly self-destructive.
I find it funny that based on your family’s experiences you are now the world’s foremost expert on someone else’s societal anxiety disorder.
Perhaps Greinke’s societal disorder would be exacerbated in a big-market like NY or Chicago. But then again, pitching in the MLB even in somewhere like Milwaukee in front of 40,000 fans daily and still having your name in the paper etc. doesn’t exactly seem ideal for someone in that situation either.
Sorry, but I am going to trust that Greinke, his family and his doctors know what’s best for him.
And I find your ignorance and insensitivity appalling and unbelievable
So we’re even.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
I wasn't trying to make light of your family's situation
But, I do think that you should ease-up on the absolute pronouncements about Greinke. If you felt so strongly about social anxiety disorders you really shouldn’t have entered the conversation.
and i would find
calling someone you don’t know with a diagnosis you have no first-hand knowledge of an “idiot” for changing their minds insensitive as well
because you’ve dealt with someone who has a social disorder doesn’t mean someone dealing with the same disorder has the same issues or struggles with them as badly as the other person
social disorders are extremely wide ranging in their effects on the individual. You’re making just as broad a generalizations about Greinke’s circumstances as the others you’re being indignant towards
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 21, 2010 2:33 PM CST up reply actions
Bull
Nothing JSB said was ignorant and/or appalling. What I find quite annoying is the way you seem to want to round everyone in the world suffering from anxiety disorders into this group of people who are completely enable to function normally and should be thought less of. As I have stated before, my brother and I both suffer from social anxiety. While it used to nearly entirely cripple me, it has since been diagnosed and I am now being treated for it. Mental illnesses are, in fact, not so different from physical injuries or illness in that everyone reacts differently to them. It is likely that Greinke has had this his entire life, and the fact that he has made it to the top level of his profession speaks volumes to his inner strength and character. To say that he could not, would not, or should not play anywhere he so chooses is not just ignorant, it completely undermines him and all of us out there battling similar demons
by thebluecrew1908 on Dec 21, 2010 3:49 PM CST up reply actions
I'll say this and leave the conversation
I’m sorry to hear of your condition. I wish you the best.
Greinke will be dealing with his issue all his life. There is no cure. Prescriptions don’t always stay effective. Greinke left baseball and almost did for good just a few short years ago. He came back and excelled. It was generally known he preferred to be in smaller markets. Last year was not a good year for him professionally. He changed his mind. Now he wants out of a nurturing environment, and he got his wish. He had a no trade list. He only wanted to go to small markets. He changed his mind. Reports say NYC was OK after it wasn’t. He ends up in Milwaukee, a place just like KC, with not that much better of a chance to win.
So, he leaves, he comes back, he wants out, he will only go to a few places, he’ll go to more places, he ends up in a similar place. Yeah, he’s stable alright.
There are different levels of havng it together, I would suggest Greinke is a work in progress, not yet ready for prime time.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Thank you for clarifying
and you make many valid points. Hope I didn’t come across too strong, I believe I may have just misunderstood your comments. Often times, I prefer not to speak of the condition due to the all-too-common social stigma against any type of mental issues. I wasn’t looking for sympathy, just saying that Greinke should not be written off without a chance to prove himself on a grander stage. However, you make a fair point that his condition has hindered him in the past. My stance is this: He’s a young pitcher who has been good in his career and shown the ability to be elite. Since he was diagnosed and demoted in 2006, he has reached 200 innings every season. That suggests to me that he is now in better control of his situation, and ready to continue his career.
by thebluecrew1908 on Dec 21, 2010 5:42 PM CST up reply actions
No problem
We’re good. I wanted to add something about Greinke I keep forgetting. In the last week or so, 10 days, something like that, he fired his agent and got a new one. Don’t know why he did that, but that also suggests somewhat unstable thought processes to me as well, given the circumstances.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
I know, but....
… I’d hate to think it was because the former agent had a viewpoint similar to mine.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
good lord
talk about projection
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 22, 2010 8:05 AM CST up reply actions
Quit calling me Lord.....
… and I really hope I’m wrong.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
There are a lot of things that you are assuming that are unknown and there are things you’re stating that are debatable as to factuality.
He thinks that his new team is unlike KC, so maybe he’s just not as smart as you.
Then again....
…. you putting money on the Brewers this year?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
not sure what you're getting at
greinke reportedly said that he’d go anywhere but we know that wasn’t exactly true so it’s hard to put much stock into greinke saying that he would go to new york. all seems irrelevant as the yankees supposedly weren’t interested.
by circuitclout on Dec 20, 2010 12:40 PM CST up reply actions
Read Heymann's and Passan's tweets
The Yankees were interested.
by JSB on Dec 20, 2010 12:47 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
i've read the tweets
and they suggest that the royals were interested in montero more than the yankees were interested in greinke.
by circuitclout on Dec 20, 2010 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
Huh
<blockquoteSeems as though all it took for the #Yankees to get past their worries about Greinke in the Big Apple was Cliff Lee signing with #Phillies.>
SFX had facilitated trade to #Nationals, which Greinke turned down. #Royals also were deep into talks w/ #Yankees. Ultimately, #Brewers won.
that's your proof?
passan was obviously trying to be cute/funny with the first quote and the second proves that the yankees and royals at least discussed greinke but the yankees ultimately decided against it according to multiple sources.
by circuitclout on Dec 20, 2010 1:55 PM CST up reply actions
Um, no
The whole point of this sub-thread was that it wasn’t out of the question for Greinke to go to a big-market team as was repeatedly asserted yesterday.
The Yankees were interested. I actually really don’t care whether or not the Yankees ultimately decided against it. That wasn’t the point.
and we remember how well Randy Johnson handled NYC
and I have a feelign Grienke would have had similar problems as Johnson in NYC
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
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