Zack Greinke
Let me start this post by saying that trading for Zack Greinke is probably low in probability but feel we should at least explore the possibility and clear up some things about how good Greinke is. The thing is while I do point out that it is not likely when a legitimate 27 year old ace with 2 years left on his contract at 13.5 each season becomes available you really need to explore the situation. Let's start by breaking Greinke down.
Zack Greinke the 2009 A.L. Cy Young award winner is as talented of a pitcher as there is on the league. Greinke features an excellent 4 pitch arsenal starting with a plus FB that averages 93.5 mph over the last 3 years. He does a good job with the pitch changing speeds and eye level. His slider is plus-plus and widely regarded as the best SL in the game averaging 85 mph. He also throws a hard and slow CB (74.3). 2009 in watching him pitch I saw him in 1 AB throw a hard 82 mph CB then come right back with a 64 mph version of the pitch. His CU is solid also (82.7) giving him good seperation from his FB.
Before brekaing down the numbers I want to point out while he did leave the team for a time for depression he has by all accounts gotten this under control. Many Americans suffer from this and still live productive lives. As far as the Chicago media market goes I don't forsee it being a problem considering that we just want a winner. Greinke has always put his terrible Royals teams in a position to win.
For numbers sake I'm just gong to use the last 3 years for a number of reasons. 1st this is an excellent article to read before I get into his numbers.
http://www.royalsreview.com/2010/11/29/1842598/era-and-defense
2008 - 13-10 3.47 202 IP 183/56 K/BB 3.56 FIP (Fielding Independent Pitching) 4.9 WAR $22.3 value
2009 - 16-8 2.16 229.1 242/52 2.33 9.4 WAR $42.5
* Lost 3 games 1-0 in which he went 8 IP and numerous other times he left w/ the lead and the bullpen blew it.
2010 - 10-14 4.17 220.1 181/55 3.34 5.2 $21
The 2010 season w-l and era do look bad but if really look deeeper into the numbers you'll see that both FIP (3.34) and the article above show that he is much better then his 4.17 era and obviously the Royals don't score many runs for him leading to the weak w-l record. Now why do we need Greinke? Well look at the playoff teams rotations. Dempster/Z are at best #3 and more like 4/5 on teams like the Yankees, Rays, Giants, and Phillies. To win in the playoffs you must have a legitimate ace and you can overcome better teams if you also have a 2nd ace caliber pitcher.
Potential Pakages:
This is where things get sticky. The Red Sox and Yankees are in a much better position to offer what it would take to get Grienke because of the blue chip players in the system. We don't have that elite minor leaguer so it probably takes 2 of our top guys and 1-2 intriguing lesser guys with upside. The Royals have a ton of LH pithcing prospects but lack a good RHP. While they have 2010 draft pick Christian Colon currently at SS I think ( as well as most scouts) he profiles better as a 2B. They alost could use OF help. While I've advocated not trading our minor league depth I do think this is an exceptional case imo.
Talks probably start with BJax and this is the 1 players in our system that I'd like to hang onto. He offers a safe chance to become a good regular and we could really use his bat which is close. If it absolutley had to include BJax I'd probably say walk. The package would probably start with 1 of our RHP in Archer, Cashner, and McNutt. I would not go with McNutt either because I feel his FB/SL grades out at elast a tick better then Archers and his command is far better. Start with Archer or Cashner then probably Lee is the most likely with a 3rd player being something like Dolis/Colvin/Guyer/Lake/J.Jackson. I don't think that's to unreasonable.
Ideally in a perfect world this would be our play dealing Archer/Lee/ and probably Colvin. Berkman looks like he's gonna sign w/ Colorado (great fit for both imo) either get Laroche or Overbay as a fallback for 1 year. Earmark 7-9 million for the 2010 drat. Go with a safe college player with our 1st if you want (preferably a bat) then spend some money on some tough signs ala Brody Colvin, Jonathan Singleton, Garin Ceccini types to refill our organizational depth and adding some high end talent. I would deal Aramis Ramirez at the deadline to gradb a couple decent close prospects. Then when t=next years much deeper FA class comes available spend some money on someone like, Cano, Fielder, AGon, Cain, and maybe look at someone like Broxton or Grady.
While I do understand that some may sign especially Cano these guys are much younger and more impact players then what's available for us now. We can justify spending money in next offseason because we lose Arams contract then Dempster/Z after the '11 season.
Now I udnerstand this is probably not gonna play out this way because honestly it makes far to much sense. So please don't get on and tell me how unlikely this is because I know but I feel I've laid out an excellent plan in becoming a legitimate W.S. contender in 2011. Please feel free to discuss or lay out some of your plans.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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I don't there is any question
that Grienke would be a great fit in the rotation. I see 3 stumbling blocks:
1. Money. Cubs at this point our looking to shed, not add. If Dome or Silva is in the deal( which is highly unlikely) I don’t see the Cubs making this deal.
2. Cub prospects. Are the Cubs willing to part with Lee, BJax, Archer, Jackson or Colvin? Like you mentioned a combination of at least 3 is tough for me to make this deal.
3. Will Grienke locate to a large city, large market. We all know of his past issues. I don’t know if Chicago is on his “no play” list.
Good write up by the way. If your right about Berkman going to Colorado, what a great fit for them.
It appears he would play in a large city/market.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-greinkehotstove113010
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
You would have to include B Jackson.
I agree with you that I’d go after Greinke. I’m not too obsessed over last season’s down year. He is still better than anything the Cubs have.
However, looking at the KC situation they have Greinke for 2 more seasons at $13.5 million. They can afford that. Other than one more season of Gil Meche, they have no player for more than $5 million. They have apparently gotten a bit smarter and are now avoiding the stupid Jose Guillen type signings. Looks like they are trying to mimic the Rays by building the #1 minor league system in baseball.
I’ve seen numerous comments that the Royals would need to be overwhelmed to trade Greinke this off-season. I don’t see an offer including Archer and two questionable long-term options in Colvin and Lee being enough. Greinke is their one big trading chip. They really need is a CF’er. I don’t see how a discussion gets off the ground this off-season without Jackson. The Royals really need to be motivated to move Greinke.
Personally I don’t see Greinke moving until possibly next off-season when he is one year away from free-agency.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
I hope the Royals look at their 2-year commitment and decide to stand pat this offseason
The Cubs really need to figure out 1B this year, and if that works out their package for Greinke could look better post-2011. The outfield should get sorted next year, and the AA pitchers may be MLB-ready (and if they are good enough, make the trade unnecessary…).
I would love to see Greinke here next season,
it would probably take more than that though.
I’d assume KC would also want a major league ready SP as well, someone like Wells or Gorz on top of a Cashner/Lee/Jackson package.
I still think he wants to avoid the big markets: NY, BOS, CHI, LA despite what the above link stated. Texas could also be a player in trading for Greinke, especially if Lee bolts to the Yankees.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
All valid points above.
Like i said highly unlikely and yeah the package i laid out is probably on the thin side. I do think it’s worth exploring. ? for anyone do you think Archer/Cashner/Lee/Colvin would get this done. And to myself should/would we be willing to pay that steep of a price.
Actually thinking it over I probably would considering I could see both Cash and Arch ending up in the pen Lee being a solid regular and Colvin probably solid regular
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/
Absolutely worth exploring,
ace pitchers in their prime don’t become available every day. What did the Phillies trade for Halladay in comparison to what the Cubs have? Didn’t they give up like 3 of their top-ten prospects or something?
FWIW, I’d do Archer, Cashner, Lee, and Colvin for Greinke today. Although, it might not take that much, probably Cashner or Archer, Lee, Colvin, and another prospect or ML player who isn’t quite at the level (at least potentially of Archer or Cashner).
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
The problem is there isn't anything close to a sure thing in that offer
Brett Jackson is probably the surest thing the Cubs have in the minors and the Royals need a CF’er. They are in the driver’s seat. I would hold out for Jackson if I was them. As you mention Archer and especially Cashner may end up in the pen. Lee’s hitting is still suspect and Colvin still looks like a 4th outfielder to me.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
I'm here in KC.
And Greinke wants to go to a contender. Thus, all of this becomes moot.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
not if his no-trade clause only limits 4 teams
then its out of his control
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 2, 2010 12:12 PM CST up reply actions
15 teams
don’t know which 15 but he can block to half the league.
I would try to interest them in Wells
You’d still have to deal the potential ace, whether Cashner, Archer, or McNutt, and a couple other pieces. Personally, I’d try an offer like Archer, Wells, Colvin, and Barney for Greinke and Ka’aihue. But I know a lot of folks don’t like Kila.
Also, you didn’t mention that the Rangers are rumored to be the frontrunner for Greinke if they lose Lee. Texas has some good pitching prospects, and is built to win now.
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
I would offer
Colvin, Cashner & one of Hak ju Lee, McNutt or Archer
One nitpick
is that you suggest a way to get into contention for 2011 and then suggest trading ARAM at the deadline. If they are in it at the deadline Aramis is likely a big piece of that and couldn’t be moved.
2nd, I would suggest looking at Matt Garza as our TOR guy to acquire. The Rays have depth to trade from and I think 2 of those guys instead of 3 (Archer, Colvin, who could step into their outfield hole) would get it done. He may not have the upside Greinke does but he is cheaper, a legit 2 or 3 and has performed well in the playoffs.
garza is overrated as hell
He's my Hossa
HO-HO-HO-HO-HOSSA
by jesus christos on Dec 2, 2010 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
Oh great idea.
Hadn’t thought about Garza who I absolutley love. Would come cheaper and with Hellickson set to join the rotation and a ton of SP on the way he could be expendable for the penny pinching Rays. Moving out of the tough AL East would improve his numbers.
and for JC dude please show me (w/ statistics and socuting reports not just random 1 line comments) why Garza is overrated.
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/
*scouting
Don’t want AL to flog me for my spelling LOL j/k AL. Thanks for fixing my spelling on more then a few occasions I get bit lazy on that end sometimes.
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/
compare xFIP and FIP to ERA
and you’ll see reasoning to suggest Garza is overrated. He’s benefited significantly from a great defense behind him the last few years. In addition he wasn’t able to hold the K/9 jumps he had in ’09 that suggested he might be turning the corner from solid #3 starter to top of the rotation guy
The league switch would certainly help and in the NL perhaps he’s more of a solid #2 than the solid #3 he was in the AL East, but I think the commenter is referring to the fact that many think of Garza as a potential TOR guy and he’s kind of plateaued as a solid #3
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 3, 2010 8:25 AM CST up reply actions
Garza = Wells
Look at their peripheral stats for 2009 and 2010. Over that period, Randy Wells and Matt Garza are twins.
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
i wouldn't go that far...
Wells is doing it in a far far easier league
I would be comfortable saying the difference between the two is far less than the perception, but they’re not equals. Garza is still a better pitcher
I’d say Garza’s a solid #3, Wells is a solid #4
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 3, 2010 12:32 PM CST up reply actions
Fair enough
My point is not that Wells is much better than his reputation, but that Garza is not as good as his reputation.
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
FIP/xFIP
Are good tools no doubt but they don’t always work well for some pitchers. Garza always had ERA lower then his FIP which tells me it’s not a good fit for him. Some pitchers FIP just doesn’t work. If it was like a 1 year thing then I might put greater weight.
Also I balance numbers and scouting reports. fangraphs.com shows his FB/SL as being above average which fits w/ the scouting reports. His CU is solid and his command improved this year. Look for his k/9 to return to his career avg. also. Garza is a good #2 on a 1st division team. Look at the division he pitches.
I’m not even gonna get into how ridiculous this statement is Garza=Wells. Garz’s stuff is miles better then Wells. Wells is not as good of a pitcher as what ppl on this siter make him out to be.
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/
well..
on the FIP/xFIP stuff. is it possible his ERA is always lower because he’s always played with an elite defense behind him? Twins in ’07 were a very good defensive team as well
Garza’s a 3-4 WAR guy, in my opinion that’s a solid #3 on a championship contending team
You say his K/9 will rebound to career averages but look at the K/9’s, the 2009 season stands out as an outlier
2007: 7.27
2008: 6.24
2009: 8.38
2010: 6.60
the career average is 7.10 and its obv inflated by the big 2009. i think its safe to say he’s somewhere around a 6.70-7.10 K/9 type guy (pitching in the AL East)With a GB Rate below 40% and a BB Rate around 3.0, statistically… that’s a #3 starter for an elite team
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 4, 2010 1:28 PM CST up reply actions
Point made.
I’ll buy that. Probably what I should ahve said is I think 2011 might be the year he takes that step forward. I think he had a nice mini-step this year. But I will conced right he’s probably a #3 for an elite team.
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/
I want to see Greinke
in a Cubs uniform as much as anyone. Actually as a former pitcher there are two guys I LOVE to watch and Greinke is one of them. I get MLB.tv and watch the Cubs almost exclusively. But I do watch when Greinke is pitching. I love his stuff, I love the way he sets guys up, I love the way he changes speeds and I love his command. So seeing him do all of that for the Cubs would obviously make me very happy. But while we may have the pieces to get it done I’m hesitant to see the Cubs empty out the farm system. Greinke-Z-Demp-Wells-Gorz would be a pretty darn good rotation though.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
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by Section 312 on Dec 2, 2010 2:04 PM CST reply actions
Great idea.
Greinke is just what the Cubs rotation needs. Sadly, I have a feeling the Royals would demand Brett Jackson, too. Then again, aren’t they known for mishandling outfield prospects? Maybe Hendry could sell them on alternate. Or maybe they would take Colvin, based on his MLB experience.
One thing about trading Aramis Ramirez — I was told recently that he has some funky clauses in his contract that would make trading him at the deadline exceedingly difficult. Can’t remember off-hand what they are. (Anyone?)
Oh, and as I always like to do, I’d suggest maybe posting your best trade offer for Greinke over at Royals Review and see what kind of response you get. I see they have some kind of Yankees/Greinke post up now.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
The Ramirez clause
From Cots…..
* 07:$8M, 08:$14M, 09:$15.65M, 10:$15.75M, 11:$14.6M player option, 12:$16M club option ($2M buyout)
* 2012 option becomes guaranteed if Ramirez:
o is traded & Ramirez exercises 2011 option
The $16 million option becomes guaranteed if Ramirez is traded.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
You wouldn't get ANY value for Aramis anyways.
Let him finish out the last year of his deal then buy his option out at $2M and either sign him to like a 2 YR/$18M deal or let him walk.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
RE:
A power 3B bat would be very valuable for a team at the deadline
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/
But would that club want to take on that $16 million option?
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
I think Boston
may be willing to give up something of value for ARAM right now and take the contract. Their other option is to pour 5 years and $60 mil into Beltre. I’d be intrigued by Jed Lowrie.
by SouthWabashSoul on Dec 3, 2010 12:55 PM CST up reply actions
With Boston's acquisition of Gonzalez,
they have Youkilis at 3rd, so they will be set. However I do see the Angels or A’s as being potential trading partners, depending on who loses out on Beltre. Ramirez may be a better play for 2 years at 16M per year than Beltre for 5 years at a similar annual salary. Obviously Beltre had a much better season last year, but the flexibility of only having A-Ram under contract for 2011 & 2012 (option vests) might be more desirable than locking up Beltre for long term. Offensively I think A-Ram is equal to Beltre if he is healthy, although Beltre is obviously a superior defender.
The O’s, Dodgers, Giants and Phillies might also look to improve 3B offensively.
With what Boston traded for A-Gon...
Could a similar package from the Cubs land Greinke?
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
could the Cubs be quietly working on a deal for him
and that is why they didnt go all in on AGon? Maybe pieces needed to AGon are needed for Greinke. Sure i am likely talking crazy talk, but could it be?
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
They've kept the Brian Roberts and Jake Peavy deals so quiet that most of the Cubs front office forgot they were happening....
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Dec 4, 2010 5:58 PM CST up reply actions
Seriously, though, if we've learned *one* thing, it's that with Hendry, there is no master plan behind the scenes.
We’re living move-to-move around here. There’s no concerted action whatsoever, and very little concern for anything other than the immediate short term.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Dec 4, 2010 6:11 PM CST up reply actions
i think the plan is to let the salaries roll this season
and have a large pot to work with next off season. Good or bad plan, time will tell
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Let's hope so.
If they play their cards right, they should have $64M removed from the payroll from 2010-2011 to work with for 2012.
Derrek Lee
Ted Lilly
Xavier Nady
John Grabow
Kosuke Fukudome
Aramis Ramirez ($2M buyout)
Carlos Silva ($2M buyout)
See ya!
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
unlike the deals to bring
Karros/Grudz
Silva
Dlee
Rami
Lofton
which he did thru the press, right? Come on, he does not work his trade via the press, we have seen that time and time again. Good or bad trade, when he is working a trade most often he doesnt do the trade via the press/media.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
For 8 years, posters on this site have said "Jim isn't done yet - this move must be to set up another move". That has never happened.
And two of those trades you listed were the same trade. And we definitely heard a ton of noise re: where Jim was shopping Bradley.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Dec 4, 2010 7:20 PM CST up reply actions
Very true
For a long time, Hendry has been living off of acquiring Derrek Lee for Choi, Aramis and Co. for Bobby Hill and basically getting lucky that overpaying (at the time) Ted Lilly and taking a shot on Ryan Dempster paid off.
Theo Epstein continues to make move after move to improve his team every season.
Is is too much to ask that the second biggest baseball market and the National League’s most popular team have a general manager that is at least 80% as efficient?
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson

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