MLB Hall Of Fame Balloting
by Al Yellon on Dec 21, 2010 5:17 PM CST
in Chicago Cubs News
Email
PrintVoting is going on right now for the 2011 Hall of Fame inductions which will take place next July in Cooperstown. Results will be announced on January 5.
Unfortunately, the polling mechanism here doesn't yet allow us to mimic the BBWAA ballot, which would allow you to vote for up to ten players, with anyone who gets more than 75% of the total vote gaining induction.
So instead, take a look down this list of the 33 players who are eligible this winter and vote for the one player on the list you think most deserving of induction. That will give us at least an idea of how the BBWAA balloting will come out. If you want, you can post the ballot you would submit if you had a vote (up to ten players) in the comments. With Andre Dawson now inducted and Greg Maddux still three years away from consideration, there aren't any strong Cub-connected players on this list, so this poll should be pretty neutral from Cub fans here. The only players on the list who played for the Cubs at all are: Rafael Palmeiro, Fred McGriff, Benito Santiago, Lee Smith and... Lenny Harris. Apart from Smith, there's no one of those five I'd consider voting for.
My ballot, if I had one this year, would be: Bert Blyleven, Roberto Alomar and Tim Raines. My one pick is Blyleven, who should have been inducted years ago and, hopefully, will get in this time.
226 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Lenny Harris
He should be in the pinch-hitters Hall of Fame. Maybe, Jay Johnstone, Rusty Staub, Thad Bosley, Richie Hebner, Manny Mota, and Dave Hansen could join him.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
If only he could have been a good PH for the Cubs.
He sucked so much in that half season that they let him go and he signed with the Marlins … and got a ring. Sigh.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
dont forget Matt Stairs
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Or that guy on the Cubs
the same time as Neifi & Jose Macias. Left handed hitter, infielder, think he went to the Pirates later, may have been Jose Macias wearing a different number? Remember him ? He was awesome!
by Southside Steve on Dec 22, 2010 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
No, not Fast Freddie
Stocky guy, maybe from Venezuela, or the Dominican. Batted left, played some second, maybe 3rd, was only on the team for a few months, but totally TJ awesome !!!
by Southside Steve on Dec 22, 2010 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
Think I found him
The immortal Enrique Wilson!! He had 22 at bats in 25 games in 2005.
That was fun, searching for him. I totally forot guys like Ben Grieve, Cliff Bartosh, Jose Nieves, Cole Liniak, Robert Machado, Danny Young and Daniel Garibay were all Cubs.
by Southside Steve on Dec 22, 2010 3:48 PM CST up reply actions
One of the scrappy middle infielders Dusty asked Hendry to sign.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I remember
when people thought Ben Grieve was a decent pick up. Wasn’t he OK for the Brewers before that?
Grieve had three pretty good years for the A's.
But then, he fell off the face of the Earth.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
After looking up his stats
I’m pretty sure I remember him as being “decent” because of a video game I was playing at the time.
Don Mattingly
I only would vote this way because he reminds me of playing RBI baseball back on my old NES. He and McGuire and I wouldn’t vote for him because of the steroid scandal (at least not yet).
RBI baseball makes a baseball expert, clearly.
Mattingly and Dale Murphy
I thought both of those guys in 1987 were destined for the Hall of Fame. You could have made a good argument for Mattingly being the best player in the American League in the mid-1980’s. Murphy was one of the best in the National League during the same time period. Mattingly had back problems, and I still don’t what the heck happened to Murphy. If either one of those guys had kept up their peak production for a few more years, they could have been locks for the Hall. I will say both of those guys at their peak were better than Fred McGriff. I’ll give McGriff credit for being a very good player for a long time, but he never struck me as great.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Steve Garvey
Anyone who can remember Garvey playing for the Dodgers in the 1970s was sure he was going to Cooperstown.
But three things happened to Garvey on the way to induction. The first is that his All-American image took a hit with some personal revelations, although that hurt his potential political career more than his HOF ballot. The second was that his career ended a bit early and he failed to get 3000 hits or 300 HRs. Finally, the sabermetric revolution caused people to re-evaluate Garvey’s career and people decided he wasn’t that good after all.
The Cub note on Garvey was that the Cubs tried very hard to sign him as a FA after the 1982 season, but Garvey signed with SD because he thought signing with Chicago would hurt his post-career plans to run for the US Senate from California, presumably as a stepping stone to the Presidency. He thought playing in (then) very conservative San Diego would help him win a GOP primary.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 21, 2010 6:03 PM CST up reply actions
Didn't know that about Garvey's political aspirations.
In any case, Garvey would be a member of the Hall of the Very Good. I put McGriff in that category too. Surprising that the Cubs would have tried to sign Garvey as a FA in 1982, since they still had Bill Buckner as their first baseman, who was only two years removed from winning a batting title, and was still a very productive hitter.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
I'm with you Al on your three - Blyleven, Alomar, Raines - plus...
…I’d add in Smith and McGwire without even thinking twice.
I’d take a long look at Bagwell and give serious consideration to Palmeiro, Larkin, and Franco.
I’d also be willing to revisit the arguments for EMartinez, Morris, and Murphy but don’t think I’d be swayed.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
What Irks Me About McGwire
He claims that the steroids didn’t help him hit those home runs. That’s a bunch of poppycock, nonsense, hogwash, malarkey, and hooey.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
His "apology" was a self-serving joke.
It was a classic case of fence-jumping. I apologize for using steroids, I admit I used them, however, they really didn’t affect my performance. The Cardinals should be a national punchline for employing this man in any capacity, much less their hitting coach. First, because of his whole attitude during this whole steroid issue, from “I’m not here to talk about the past” all the way to his aforementioned fence-jumping apology. Second, because he wasn’t that good of a hitter anyway. About a .260 lifetime hitter who was all or nothing. Home runs or strikeouts. That’s it. No situation hitting, no stategy, nothing. A classic American League guess-hitting hack, who was so juiced for most of his career that he should have been an orange. The notion of him in the HOF is something that I find so repugnant and offensive, I can barely find the words to do it justice. And yet Cardinal fans gave this guy a standing ovation at their offseason convention after he was hired as hitting coach, yet they love to throw Sosa under the bus. I lost a lot of respect for Cardinal fans based on their reaction to McGwire being hired as their hitting coach.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Sooner or later, the Cubs and Sammy Sosa will kiss-n-make up
and when that day comes and he’s given a standing ovation at that year’s Cubs Convention or when he throws out the first pitch at some game, what will you think of Cub fans?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
To tell you the truth....
I don’t see this happening any time soon. And he certainly will never be the Cubs hitting coach. Look, I didn’t expect the Cardinal fans to boo him, but they could have given him a respectful applause and that would have been the end of it. From what I understand, they gave him a loud, sustained standing ovation for at least a minute. I’m sorry, that kind of reaction to a man who has just admitted to being a cheat, and then tried to have it both ways by half-apologizing but insisting it didn’t help him….it just was not appropriate. And I can guarantee you that even if the Cubs and Sosa do make up someday, he will not get a returning hero’s applause from Cub fans.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Yep
It’s the Hall of Fame, not Hall of Saints. I think his power numbers and impact on the game make him Hall-worthy. Plus I have a hard time believing that Bonds, ARod, Sosa and who knows who else is not going to get into the HoF because of the Steroid Era. Then again, I think the HoF of late is kind of a joke anyway so if the BBWA keeps the best players of our generation out of it, I guess I have to give them props for consistency.
Besides knowing that only 23.7% of the writers voted for McGwire makes me feel even better about my thinking.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I suspect...
… that after 10-15 years give us some perspective on the era, some of these guys may get voted in.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It's a big reason why I'd rather make McGwire and Palmeiro wait
Sure there were guys like these who were doing steroids at some point, but there were also other players with far lesser stats that were doing them too. This is going to take a bit of time to evaluate.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
so while keeping them out, do you pull out those who used
the spitball, greenies, testosterone and are in?
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
I don't have a problem with PEDs in general
I just think we need some more time to evaluate the impact of steroids on the sport.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
On that basis...
Bonds should be a cast-iron first ballot HoF-er. I don’t think he will be, though, because the voters will use the PED issue as a stick to beat him with for being a jerk over the years.
I don’t actually have a huge problem with either end of that deal. Like it or not, Bonds was the pre-eminent figure in the game for 15 years and it would be absurd if he wasn’t in; equally, if the voters want to punish him for being a jerk, that’s cool too. He always struck me as a jerk and you reap what you sow.
By the same token, I wouldn’t lose any sleep over the voters punishing McGwire by keeping him out for a couple of years. He’ll get in, eventually.
by Limey Cub Fan Jay on Dec 22, 2010 7:01 AM CST up reply actions
McGwire Might Have to Wait for Veteran's Committee
He can’t crack 25% with the writers right now. I doubt he’ll get in with the BBWAA voting in the next decade. It could be a long wait for McGwire, if the Veteran’s Committee has to vote on him.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Edgar Martinez
If a DH is going to make the Hall, it’ll be Edgar, but I don’t think he will. I believe Edgar is hurt by the fact that he didn’t get to playing regularly until he was 27. DH’s are going to have a tougher time than closers in making the Hall of Fame. Before Edgar, Harold Baines had the best shot at the Hall among DH’s. While Baines was a good player, I don’t think of him as a great HoF player.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Martinez was more than that
He is one of the best hitters of all time. He had 8 seasons with an OPS+ of 150 or greater. That’s pretty impressive for a guy who wasn’t a regular in the lineup until he was 27 years old. DH’s with that sort of production on a consistent basis aren’t that easy to find.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
Granted these guys don't get elected to the hall on might haves,
but Edgar was a pretty darn good 3B before he was a DH. That is until he got hurt in an exhibition game in Vancouver. You have never seen Lou so angry as he was after that. His star guy out because of a bad infield in a stupid exhibition game. And Edgar was never quite the same after that but had some terrific years anyway.
But apparently he's "statue" worthy.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Dec 22, 2010 7:57 AM CST up reply actions
I understand what you are saying
that HOF voters will be reluctant to vote for a player who only played half the game, but the DH is part of the game and has been for some time now,so if a DH puts HOF numbers (and a good argument can be made that EMartinez did) he deserves to be voted in.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 22, 2010 9:27 AM CST up reply actions
My Ballot
Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven and Barry Larkin.
I agonized over Trammell and McGwire. In Trammell’s case, I decided that he’s clearly inferior to Barry Larkin, so put Barry in now and then decide whether the cut line is before or after Trammell.
McGwire has maybe the weakest case of the PED candidates right now. His career looked over in the mid 90s and then he returned and was a superstar. It’s not hard to argue that without PED’s, he wouldn’t have gotten close to Cooperstown.
But then I think that I don’t know that Robbie Alomar didn’t take PEDs. Heck, I don’t know that Cal Ripken didn’t take them. The media seems to have decided who is a hero and who is a villain in the steroids era based upon who they like and don’t like. It’s a different sport, but there has been tons of evidence against Lance Armstrong, but he’s been able to turn the evidence into an evil French plot against him and the US of A and the US media backs him up.
I hate deciding who gets into Cooperstown based on who “got caught” on PEDs. Maybe tomorrow I’ll vote for McGwire. But today, it’s just those three.
Trammell and Larkin
are one another’s closest comps on Baseball Reference. Larkin’s numbers are a tiny bit better than Trammell’s but my one vote went to Trammell because he’s been waiting longer and I can’t for the life of me see why he hasn’t got in already.
Interestingly, both players’ top ten comps list (which are very similar generally) include Jay Bell, who is never going to be in the HoF but was the first player that I really, really liked when I was introduced to baseball in the early 90s.
by Limey Cub Fan Jay on Dec 22, 2010 7:21 AM CST up reply actions
Trammell was not clearly inferior to Larkin
nothing clear about that whatsoever. your personal preference, at best. Larkin put up marginally better numbers, but he played 10 years later, when offensive numbers were increasing
ask not what the Cubs can do for you - ask what you can do for the Cubs.
by holy mackeral on Dec 22, 2010 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe not; but a bit inferior, yes
Larkin’s career OPS+ is 116 against Trammell’s 110, and his career WAR is 68.9 against 66.9. Also, Larkin’s peak period lasted a fair bit longer than Trammell’s: 1988-2000 against ‘83-’88. On the other hand, Trammell’s peak period is harder to define because he had good-excellent seasons both before and after his peak (and one mediocre season right in the middle of it) whereas Larkin had an unbroken run of thirteen quality years (twelve and a half, if you want to allow for 1997) bookended by a couple of years of mediocrity at each end.
I think they should both be in, but with only one vote I still voted for Trammell.
by Limey Cub Fan Jay on Dec 22, 2010 4:01 PM CST up reply actions
Gotta Vote for Black Jack
For my money, Morris had a better career than Blyleven. But also Raines and Blyleven
AlaskaFan
"Year after year after year after year . . . . . after year after year after year . . ." - Steve Goodman, "Dying Cub Fan's Last Request"
Morris better than Blyleven?
Not even close. Blyleven won 287 games, is fifth on the all-time strikeout list, and threw 60 shutouts. Only Nolan Ryan and Tom Seaver, among pitchers of his generation, threw more shutouts. Blyleven pitched in two World Series and helped his team win both of them.
By comparison, the active leader in shutouts is Roy Halladay. He has 19.
Blyleven should have been in years ago. His oversight is ridiculous. If he had pitched in New York, he would have been voted in near-unanimously.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Dec 21, 2010 6:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Sigh...using wins to evaluate pitchers....
and using “he pitched in the WS” as another argument…
If you’d simply stuck to using meaningful measurable things that are useful in telling how good a player is, I would tend to agree with you.
Having said that, I agree that Blyleven is better than Morris…but not by as wide of a margin as you seem to believe.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 21, 2010 6:57 PM CST up reply actions
A part of me feels like
it makes more sense to judge a guy the way the other players of his era were judged when they got in, or didn’t get in, to the hall of fame. Using advanced metrics now to judge players whose peers weren’t judged that way seems a little like moving the goal posts. But then again a part of me feels like it’s a better way to judge players so tough luck.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
by Section 312 on Dec 21, 2010 7:07 PM CST up reply actions
Right.
Plus, Blyleven did win nearly 300 games, which would be automatic entry.
The comparison made was to Morris, who won far fewer games. In the era in which Blyleven and Morris pitched, starting pitcher wins had much more meaning than they do now.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
...
In the era in which Blyleven and Morris pitched, starting pitcher wins had much more meaning than they do now.
Please explain this.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 22, 2010 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
I have to explain this?
Starting pitchers threw many more CG then. Thus, a W/L record of a starting pitcher had more reflection on how his team did, than it does now, when bullpens frequently blow leads for starting pitchers.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He likely would have won over 300 games with a bit more offense behind him
Morris had 4.2 runs per start behind him, yet Morris had 4.9 runs per start. League average over the course of Morris’ career was 4.4 runs per start, so Morris benefited from an extra half run of offense per start over the course of his career. Blyleven wasn’t so fortunate because his run support per start was league average. Considering the great gap in career WAR between Blyleven and Morris (90.1 for Blyleven vs. 39.3 for Morris), that’s a significant difference.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
Consider the Fact
that Blyleven had several seasons with more complete games than wins. (The number is the year and the + is the number of complete games more than wins) 71 1, 73 +5, 74 +2, 755, 76 +5, 77 + 1 and 865 +7. That’s TWENTY SIX more complete games than wins during those years. Add only half of those to the win total and we have the magic 300. Stop and think about that for a minute.
He was also 80 WAR and Morris only 39.
Blyleven and Santo are the two most egregious omissions from the Hall of Fame.
by frustratedfan on Dec 21, 2010 11:26 PM CST up reply actions
FWIW
Jon Heyman had an interesting article about why he didn’t vote for Blyleven.
Personally, I find the argument that he was good, not dominate, but managed to stick around long enough to put up some impressive counting stats, pretty compelling .
Don't you have to be excellent to be good for that long?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 23, 2010 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
Basically, yes.
The strikeouts, the 60 shutouts, and the two WS rings do it for me.
Fifth on the all-time K list — 20+ years after he retired. That’s impressive.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Nope
You have to be above average and healthy.
I think the HOF is for those who are truly the best of their era.
Bove average and healthy???
Blyleven was both, so what’s your point?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 23, 2010 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
umm
You asked if you have to be excellent to be that good for that long. I replied no – you have to be above average and healthy, meaning to play for a long time you don’t have to be excellent. I think the HOF is for those who are excellent, Blyleven wasn’t. He just played above average for a very long time.
60 shutouts and 3700+ strikeouts aren't "excellent"?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
over a 22 yr career
I’d say those numbers are a testament to his longevity and pitching in an era when relievers were used differently.
His career K/9 is 6.7
His WHIP is ~1.2
His ERA is 3.31
His numbers were a little better early in his career, but he never had a stellar year.
That said, I wouldn’t be upset if he got in
Yet he was in the top ten
in league strikeouts 15 times.
He also lead the league in K/BB ratio three times and was in the top 10 16 times.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 24, 2010 3:27 PM CST up reply actions
To be above average for that long
is to be excellent some would say, not you obviously, but some would. Very few stay that good for that long is the point. Blyleven is unusual in that regard.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 23, 2010 4:13 PM CST up reply actions
I voted for Walker
cause I am Canadian and I was worried he wouldn’t get any votes.
Jack Morris and Alomar surely have to get in? Jack Morris was the best starter of the 80s and for me that means he should get in.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
by Section 312 on Dec 21, 2010 6:05 PM CST reply actions
Morris
His statistics aren’t HoF worthy. The only argument I can think of for Morris is that he was a clutch pitcher on good teams. He’s not a sabermetric guy. I didn’t vote for him.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
How about the fact he was statistically
the best pitcher of the decade that was the 80s? He won 162 games in the 80s. Stieb, Fernando, Ryan, Blylevyn, Clemens, Gooden, Carlton none of them were close. If you are the best pitcher of a decade that’s got to be a pretty good argument for the Hall. He also won 254 games which is more than 26 Hall of Fame pitchers (admittedly not all starters) and just 12 less than Bob Feller. His era might be a bit high for the Hall but it was inflated slightly in his last 3 or 4 years.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
by Section 312 on Dec 21, 2010 6:53 PM CST up reply actions
Best pitcher of the 1980's?
W-L: 162-119
ERA: 3.66
CG: 133
SHO: 20
SO: 1,629
ERA+: 109 (Yikes!)
WAR: 27.9 (Yikes!)
Let’s take a closer look. Morris benefited from 4.7 runs per start in the 1980’s. That’s more than Stieb, who had a 127 ERA+ and a 45.2 WAR in the 1980’s. If you judge that opinion by wins alone, then that’s fine. I don’t think Stieb is a Hall of Famer and I certainly don’t think Morris is either.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
The stats posted for Morris
Those were from 1980-89.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
Like I said above
I am kind of torn on how I feel about judging guys by modern advanced metrics when their peers weren’t judged that same way at the time they were inducted. Morris more than anyone else in the 80s was out there racking up innings pitched, CG and wins
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
by Section 312 on Dec 21, 2010 7:51 PM CST up reply actions
Blyleven's wins were inflated
Over the course of his career, he received half a run above average in terms of run support per start.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
Morris, not Blyleven
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
Blylevyn also only had 33 more wins than Morris
despite starting 160 more games.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
by Section 312 on Dec 22, 2010 3:12 AM CST up reply actions
Pretty simple reason for that.
Morris played for better teams.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Bagwell
He’s tough to evaluate because he had his best years, when the Astros still played at the Astrodome, a pitcher’s park. It’s amazing what he did in 1994.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Actually
I can amend my ballot and add Bagwell. I think he’s way overqualified and I just missed his name when scanning the list.
So Alomar, Bagwell, Blyleven and Larkin.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 21, 2010 6:16 PM CST up reply actions
Oh crap
And I missed Tim Raines too..Add him. This is why I don’t have a HOF ballot.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 21, 2010 6:19 PM CST up reply actions
Raines
He had his best years playing at a pitcher’s park in Olympic Stadium. I believe if he had his best years with the Yankees that Raines would already be in the Hall of Fame.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
And playing for Montreal
wouldn’t have helped him if Stade Olympique was Coors Field. He was just out of sight in a foreign country where French was the primary language.
But he was probably the best leadoff hitter in the history of the National League.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 21, 2010 8:03 PM CST up reply actions
Raines
Raines should get in. He was really a force in the early ‘80s. His high BB totals probably weren’t properly appreciated at the time which is why he isn’t in already.
If Raines goes in
They’ll have three players in Cooperstown with the “elb” of the Expos on their plaque.
Meanwhile, the Angels are still waiting for their first. Ryan should have gone in as an Angel, but he whined his way into a Rangers hat. Bobby Grich is a solid candidate who hasn’t gotten any support. After that, they’ve got a bunch of guys who either played more with other teams, like Reggie Jackson, or who just fell short of being worthy, like Tim Salmon.
I guess they’re waiting for Vlad to retire. Even then, Cooperstown will probably make him Expo number four.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 21, 2010 11:21 PM CST up reply actions
No
Bobby Grich is a sabermetrician’s dream player. He was one of the greatest defensive 2B of all time. He hit home runs at a time when no other second baseman hit home runs. He also got on base a lot for his era, with a career OBP of .371. Essentially, Bobby Grich was Bill Mazeroski who could hit, and Maz is in.
In his New Historical Baseball Abstract, Bill James ranked Grich as the 12th best 2B of all time. Ten of the first 11 are in Cooperstown and the other one is Craig Biggio.
But most of Grich’s supporters in the sabermetric community know they’ll never get past uniformed comments like the one you just made.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 22, 2010 4:12 AM CST up reply actions
Agree on Grich
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
Mazeroski is in largely because of one home run he hit.
If he hadn’t done that, he’s not in. His top ten comps are:
1. Frank White (912)
2. Bill Russell (883)
3. Leo Cardenas (871)
4. Chris Speier (870)
5. Jim Fregosi (869)
6. Royce Clayton (867)
7. Tony Taylor (864)
8. Phil Garner (854)
9. Terry Pendleton (851)
10. Garry Templeton (851)
No Hall of Famers there, not even close. Grich? I dunno. Home runs? Some, but 20 or more only twice. Got on base a lot, yes, but had only 1833 hits. Borderline, IMO.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Frank White
There’s a great example of somebody, who was a good player that you would never consider for the Hall of Fame. He was a great fielder and a good hitter for a second baseman of the day but not a HoF’er.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
I disagree
The problem with those comps is that they don’t factor in defense. Mazeroski was on the HOF ballot for years and everyone knew about the HR. He got very little support.
The HR certainly helped, but what got Mazeroski in the HOF was new sabermetric evaluations of his defense. Supporters of Maz were able to argue, with a lot of support, that he was “The Babe Ruth of Defense.” The argument was that the greatest defensive player of all time should be in the Hall. Ozzie Smith being in the Hall helped his cause immensely.
To be fair, Grich wasn’t Mazeroski. If Maz was Babe Ruth with the glove, Grich was closer to Jimmy Foxx or Mel Ott with the glove. But Grich, unlike Maz, could also hit.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 22, 2010 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
Hard to Compare Grich and White Defensively
Frank White played on the turf in Kansas City, while Grich was playing on grass in Baltimore and Anaheim. I thought of White as a better defensive player, but I was exposed to White more because he was a member of the parent club of the Memphis Chicks in the mid-1980’s. I wonder if any of Grich’s teams had broken through to the World Series, if Grich would have gained any more traction for the Hall of Fame. He had a chance with the bases loaded in the ninth inning of game 5 of the 1986 ALCS to put California into the Series and didn’t do it.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
White was excellent
with the glove and was at least as good as Grich. Maybe he’s the Lou Gehrig of defense.
But offensively, he’s Mazeroski again. His steals don’t really count because he was caught stealing so much.
Essentially, White was inferior to Maz, and I think everyone thinks Maz was a pretty marginal induction.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 22, 2010 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
Grich
He was an underrated player. He was never in the World Series but was with five playoff teams with the Orioles and Angels. I suppose the majority of people would give Lou Whitaker the nod over Bobby Grich in determining the best American League second baseman of that era. Whitaker, Joe Morgan, Davey Lopes, and Ryne Sandberg were the only other second basemen during Grich’s time that showed any power at all.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Grich
lost the ALCS five times, two with the Orioles and three with the Angels. That hurt his overall reputation, but the bigger issue was that his greatest strengths, defense and getting on base, simply were not accurately valued when he was active. Darrell Evans had the same problem.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 22, 2010 11:53 AM CST up reply actions
I had never heard of Bobby Grich
A 2B with an OBP of .371 is damn impressive. Especially if he played as good of defense as everyone here says (and the numbers agree). Thanks for the information.
Bagwell is the best on this list
He is really one of the most underrated players of the ’90s. An absolute monster at his peak. Great hitter, one of the best defensive first baseman of his era and a surprisingly good baserunner.
Here’s some numbers:
Career Triple Slash: .297/.408/.540
Career: .406 wOBA
Career 83.8 fWAR (5.86 fWAR /150 games)
6-year peak (1994-1999): 7.8 (strike-shortened!), 4.5 (injury-shortened), 7.7, 8.3, 7.0, 8.2 WAR
Solid counting numbers too: 449 HR, 1500+ R, 1500+ RBI, 2300+ H, 200+ SBs
Hard for Old Astros Offensively
Craig Biggio is going to make it. Joe Morgan is the only HoF position player that I can think of, who spent a significant amount of his career with the Astros. Oh, yeah, he did have those years with the Reds. I believe it’s hard for those old Astros to make it because of offensive numbers being held down by the Astrodome. The dome didn’t do any favors for Jimmy Wynn and Jose Cruz. I don’t seriously think either one of them would have been HoF’ers, if they had spent a greater portion of their careers with other teams. However, I think they could have had good enough numbers to get named on 15% of the HoF ballots. I hope the Astrodome effect is taken into account, when voters evaluate Bagwell.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
I don't see how he isn't a HoFer even with the Astrodome effect
His numbers are certainly there unless you are a stickler for 500 HR or 3000 H (which is dumb). I think the easiest way to judge is to look at WAR and WAR/150 to get an idea of longevity and peak. Among the guys on this list (and others that I could think of off the top of my head that will be eligible soon), Bagwell is second in both total WAR and WAR/150 to Bonds of anyone from his era. Pretty damn impressive.
Bagwell 83.8 fWAR or 5.86 fWAR
Compare with some other players on this list:
Fred McGriff: 61 fWAR or 3.83 fWAR/150
Edgar Martinez 71.6 fWAR or 5.22 fWAR/150
Barry Larkin 69.8 fWAR or 4.8 fWAR/150
Roberto Alomar 68.2 fWAR or 4.3 fWAR/150
Larry Walker 72.2 fWAR or 5.42 fWAR/150
Rafael Palmeiro 75.5 fWAR or 4.04 fWAR/150
Mark McGwire 70.9 fWAR or 5.65 fWAR/150
Tim Raines 71 fWAR or 4.17 fWAR/150
Bagwell is10-15% better than almost all these players in both total WAR and WAR/150. When you add in that some of these guys have major flaws-Martinez (DH), Walker (Coors effect), Palmeiro (career extended by PEDs), McGwire (PEDs)- Bagwell for my money is a notch above.
For added context here are the numbers of some other guys from this era. Bonds’ numbers just make everyone else look silly.
Griffey Jr. 85.6 fWAR or 4.81 fWAR/150
Bonds 169.1 fWAR or 8.5 fWAR/150
Thomas 79.1 fWAR or 5.10 fWAR/150
Sosa 64.6 fWAR or 4.11 fWAR/150
Also thought I would add in Dawson as he is the most recent position player to be elected.
Dawson 62.3 fWAR or 3.55 fWAR/150
I'm not accusing Bagwell of actually having done anything...
but I’m ok with waiting a couple years on guys like him (power hitters from this era) and making sure nothing comes to the surface. On numbers alone, he’s in on the first ballot.
I also don’t cry for the guys who did things “the right way”. They all cashed checks in the 90s and kept their mouth shut while they knew their teammates and competitors were breaking rules. Sure, some of them made some comments after their careers were over, but they benefited from McGwire and Sosa, etc… they chose to lay down in that bed with them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Dec 28, 2010 2:31 PM CST up reply actions
My list
Blyleven, Raines, Alomar, Bagwell, Palmerio, Smith, Trammell, Larkin, Edgar Martinez, McGriff.
There are some weak candidates there, by HOF standards anyway, but I don’t think anyone on my list would lower the bar, so to speak.
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey
All right.
Fess up. Who voted for Lenny Harris?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I am one of the 3 who proudly cast a vote for Al Leiter. The greatest pitcher of all time
We can't win at home. We can't win on the road. I just can't figure out where else to play!
-- Pat Williams
by Fat Punk Kicker on Dec 22, 2010 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
TJ11's alter ego?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 22, 2010 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
I am a Cubs fan. I like baseball. I don't study baseball.
I don’t think Al Lieter is a Hall of Famer. As I read all of the posts about OPS+ and other Sabermetics I feel lost and realize I know less about baseball than I even thought (And I am very aware of my lack of baseball knowledge) . So I voted for the least likely candidate possible
We can't win at home. We can't win on the road. I just can't figure out where else to play!
-- Pat Williams
by Fat Punk Kicker on Dec 22, 2010 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Alomar is my first choice.
Then Blyleven, Raines and Bagwell.
Blyleven numbers will not be matched by any current pitcher. Also in limited Post season chances he was 5-1 with a 2.47 ERA. Time he gets in, enough.
I would vote
Roberto Alomar
Jeff Bagwell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
I would vote a full ballot, though I have to admit there are certain borderline candidates who have good cases. I don’t think McGwire and Palmeiro should be rewarded just yet.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
Good list
If you swapped out Walker for Palmeiro that’s my exact list.
Palmeiro is a tough case I guess but just by the numbers alone he’s an upper-crust HOF’er. 3,000/500 are hard to ignore.
Hmm, maybe I wouldn’t vote for him after all. The reason I didn’t put Walker on the list is that I think he benefited way too much from his home park. Artificially inflated numbers are the same whether they come from the ballpark or the steroids.
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey
Can't say I agree with that
Artificially inflated numbers are the same whether they come from the ballpark or the steroids.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
by Section 312 on Dec 21, 2010 7:45 PM CST up reply actions
I didn't mean it
as a moral statement and I don’t put Walker in the same category of cheaters like Palmeiro. I just meant that what we see aren’t the true ability of the player. I do think that without Coors, Walker would have been a good, occasional all-star caliber player and not a serious candidate for the HOF. Palmeiro I think had a good chance of being more than that, he probably would have ended up with 3000 hits steroids or not. Remember his career ended a year or two earlier than he wanted.
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey
His career
wRC+ is very much inline with or ahead of Hall of Famers like Griffey Jr, Ricky Henderson and even your guy Palmeiro. Walker’s career WAR is also only 3 less than Palmeiro despite playing three fewer seasons and he had 8 seasons with a wOBA over .400 while Rafael had 6 and had none anywhere near as good as Walker’s two best of .494 and .486. Palmeiro’s best wOBA Walker beat 4 times and was within 3-4 points of it twice more. His career wOBA of .414 compares very favorably to Palmeiro’s .380 career wOBA and Junior’s .385 career wOBA.
And on top of all of that Walker didn’t cheat to get those weighted numbers.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
by Section 312 on Dec 22, 2010 3:05 AM CST up reply actions
Todd Helton?
What will be his chances of making the Hall of Fame?
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Good question.
Depends on how much people discount the Coors Field effect on him. Also, he’s pretty much tumbled off a cliff the last couple years. His overall numbers are good, but not great. He doesn’t have enough of the counting stats, and while his .324 lifetime BA is impressive, that’s .356 at Coors, .291 on the road; also, 204 HR at Coors, 129 on the road.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It will be interesting too see how much playing in Denver affects his chances
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 22, 2010 1:38 PM CST up reply actions
Lee Smith, Bert Blyleven, Jack Morris
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Just curious
Why is Barry Larkin qualified to be a HoFer? I’m too young to remember him well, but his numbers don’t really jump off the page at me. I’m not saying he shouldn’t, I would just like the perspective of those who actually watched his career
by thebluecrew1908 on Dec 21, 2010 9:08 PM CST reply actions
He was the best SS in the NL
Over about a 12 year span. He was a gold glove defensive SS who hit .300 nine times and had a lifetime OBP of .371. He stole 379 bases and while power wasn’t his game, he did hit 198 in his career. He won an MVP award.
You could argue that there weren’t a lot of good SS in the NL from the time Ozzie Smith got old until 2000 and you’d be right, but Larkin was a great player who was tons better than any of his peers. That’s a HOF to me. He won nine Silver Sluggers and three Gold Gloves, and he should have won more.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 21, 2010 10:12 PM CST up reply actions
i didnt realize his numbers were that good
he is a SS i think of as steady and durable, never realized he was elite for such a period, thanks for the info
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Well gee...
When you put it THAT way! Thanks for the input, due to my age I could only remember him as “the old guy who has been with the Reds nearly my entire life.” Definitely sounds HoF worthy to me now though
by thebluecrew1908 on Dec 21, 2010 10:45 PM CST up reply actions
Raines, Murphy, Bly, Big Mac
until they remove those who used greenies (Mays, Aaron), spit ball (Ford) and testerone (babe) to name a few, you cant keep those who used steroids out, its all or nothing IMHO
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Wow...I actually agree with you...
I’d stick Rafael Palmeiro in there, too. Steroids? Big deal. They put people’s asses back in the seats in ’98…so, in a way…steroids saved baseball. Bonds, Mac, Sammy, Clemens, Palmeiro and eventually A-Rod and Manny…they all belong in.
Can this off season get any worse?
you might enjoy this
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Well done...
I couldn’t agree more with it. I’m pretty sure we ALL knew something was up with that epic home run chase of ’98. Did it matter? Did it taint it at the time? Did we refuse to watch? Not I. I remember multiple times watching Sosa hit one 450 feet and immediately turn to the Cardinal station to watch McGwire, right on cue, jack one just as far, or further. That was great times in baseball, IMHO.
Can this off season get any worse?
Dave Parker
Some of you more statistically oriented people can help me understand why Parker is not mentioned. He stands out in my mind as important part of a very good Pirates team.
I have PMS & a GPS -- which means -- I am a bitch, and I will find you.
by cub in louies nest on Dec 21, 2010 9:55 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Too short a career peak
Parker was a HOF quality player for only about five years 1975-79. After that, drugs and too much food began to take a toll and he was a pretty average player for about a decade. He had a couple of good years in Cincinnati in the mid-eighties, but by then he was fat and an awful defensive player.
Put him in the Hall of the Very Good along with Tim Salmon and Vada Pinson.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 21, 2010 10:17 PM CST up reply actions
Him too
Ray Lankford. Dwight Evans. George Foster. There’s about 300 guys like that if we went down that road. That’s why they aren’t going to Cooperstown.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 21, 2010 10:37 PM CST up reply actions
I'll vote for him
If he helps me move
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Dec 22, 2010 12:03 PM CST up reply actions
I don't really think Cooperstown would hurt if Murphy made it in
His peak was better than Parker’s and we often get blinded by the back end of a player’s career for those candidates that could go one way or the other. He was one of the best players in the NL from 1980-87. I realize some people like to see a stronger peak for a period that short or else he simply needed a longer one. Murphy and other stars from the 1980’s get overshadowed by the offensive explosion that took place in the 1990’s. I would prefer to see Alan Trammell in there ahead of Dale Murphy (reflected on my mock ballot), but I think they both belong.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
Murphy
He did have the two MVP seasons, sure. But he had only five other really good seasons, and dropped off quickly. He was basically done at 34. Apart from the seven high-quality seasons, his career looks a lot like Andruw Jones’ — his #1 comp. Jones isn’t going into the Hall, either.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It depends on how you look at it
if you look at the guy’s ink scores, Murphy did just enough to warrant more consideration than he’s been getting. From 1980-87, he had a 140 OPS+ with a triple slash line of .284/.374/.517. He hit 264 home runs and drove in 768 runs with his bat. His WAR during this time was 41.6. All of this makes for a pretty solid peak in a low offensive era.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
True.
But that’s only seven years. For the rest of his career after 1987, he hit .234/.307/.396 with 15 HR and 56 RBI.
Blake DeWitt could probably do better than that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Blake DeWitt?
DeWitt never has had a season with an OPS+ better than 100. I never look at DeWitt and expect him to be anything more than a normal second baseman that’s below league average. Let’s not forget that the Dodgers traded Ryan Theriot to get him.
There was a time, even if it was only for seven years, that Dale Murphy was one of the most dominant players in the National League. DeWitt’s career has barely started, but I seriously have my doubts that he could ever be mentioned in the same sentence as Dale Murphy.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
Correction
The Dodgers traded for Ryan Theriot to get rid of him.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
I disagree with your conclusion.
All I’m saying is that the end of Murphy’s career looks like Blake DeWitt — average at best.
He had a great peak. But it was pretty short.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You are right here
Murphy was a very average player except for a 6-year peak and that peak wasn’t that groundbreaking. He isn’t a HoFer.
The 90's haven't helped the perception of Murphy
The 1980’s were a low offensive era compared to the steroid fueled explosion of the 1990’s. 1980-87 is actually an 8-year peak, which could be observed through tracking his OPS+ and WAR. It was more than enough to put him over the top in Black Ink and Gray Ink scores, something that isn’t true of other peak guys on the ballot like Parker and Mattingly.
But hey. Agree to disagree. I used to not support his candidacy, but I’ve turned around on it in the last month or so.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
Even relying on an adjusted stat like WAR or OPS+ he still doesn't really pass muster
His total WAR of 47.3 and OPS+ of 121 really aren’t close to HOF worthy.
Here are his WAR from 1980-1987
1980 6.0
1981 2.0
1982 6.1
1983 7.3
1984 5.7
1985 4.7
1986 2.3
1987 7.3
Total: 41.3
Avg. : 5.16
That’s nice. But considering those 8 seasons are all Murphy has, it’s not HOF worthy.
I also listed his OPS+ stats below and they really aren’t all that special.
Because he doesn’t have the career numbers, his peak numbers have to be right up there with the all-time greats. Simply put they aren’t.
Speaking of Parker
I lean more towards someone like Dale Murphy, who had a slightly longer and stronger peak. WAR rates Parker pretty low.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
Parker Truly Great in the Late 1970's
He won two batting titles, played on a world championship team, and played great defense. He was a 20/20 guy, who could hit over .300, back when that was not common. He didn’t keep it up for long enough.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Cant do it.
HOF is non-smoking.
No to Otto, etc.; Yes to Moreland for the 2011 Radio Booth
by Dan Serafini on Dec 22, 2010 9:31 AM CST up reply actions
Voted for Smith
But I think if I had ten I would have found a way to put Franco on there. There’s something to be said about the longevity of his career, even if he never really stood out in any statistical category over the course of his career. Playing until (if memory serves) 47 in any sport is something to be marveled
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
No way on McGwire
McGwire without those 2 seasons is not a HOFer look at his numbers overall.
You could make a better argument for Sosa because he was actually a better all around player.
Am I the only one who will find it interesting to see how Sosa’s vote totals compare when he comes up?
Formerly known as cubstoseriesby100. Thanks Al for letting me change my outdated screenname.
voted for Blyleven
after that
Lee Smith.
Roberto Alomar
Barry Larkin
Its interesting to see Olerud not getting any votes. He was a great player that just showed up, kept to himself and did his job. He was maybe the best 1st baseman on this list, yes better than Mattingly.
I remember that he used to wear that Catchers hat.
"Baseball is ninety percent mental. The other half is physical." -Yogi Berra
Blyleven and Morris
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
Trammel, Smith and Blyleven
are my list, with Trammel getting the one vote
Live the life you love and love the life you live - Willie Dixon
Alomar makes the most sense to me
compared to other HoF 2B, Alomar is an virtual equal or better.
300/.371/.443/.814
And again, the “decade” argument. He was the best 2B of the 1990’s. Just under 3,000 hits and 500+ career doubles.
Blyleven should go in first though.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
"an virtual" should = "a virtual"
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Dec 22, 2010 8:11 AM CST up reply actions
Alomar, Raines, Blyleven
are my top 3. I’d probably add Bagwell for a 4th vote.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
I know that it's a few years away, like 7 or so,
but is Jim Thome a HoFer? There’s an outside shot that at the time of his retirement, he will only be behind Bonds, Aaron, Ruth, A-Rod, and Mays on the all-time HR list. Whether he can pass Griffey is debateable, but possible. He’s at #8 now. WIth 21 more, he’ll pass Sosa, and then 21 more to pass Griffey. He says he wants to play 2 more years. Does his bat have 42 more HR’s in it?
He is a great player for sure, but he doesn’t seem “HoF worthy” to me.
by jerry morales rules on Dec 22, 2010 9:21 AM CST reply actions
Yes, Thome is a Hall of Famer.
In addition to being eighth on the HR list, he’s 30th on the RBI list (likely to move up about six spots this year), and ninth in walks (probably up to seventh after 2011).
He has had six seasons of 40+ home runs, and 12 of 30+. Nine 100 RBI seasons, nine seasons of 100+ walks, five-time All-Star.
Plus, being one of the best human beings in the game. He’s in.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He was an all-star only 5 times
Finished in the top 5 of MVP voting only once, and that was at 4.
I dunno. His longevity is excellent and that’s what would get him in, but he was never one of the “best of the best” players in the league.
by jerry morales rules on Dec 22, 2010 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
Longevity alone?
Hardly. Look at the rankings. He’s one of the greatest hitters in baseball history.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes, longevity alone.
He was a very good player for a lot of years, but, though he had some great seasons, at any individual point in his career would you have said he’s an HoFer? it’s only when you look at the totals of his performance that the question even arises.
Was Thome ever thought of as the best player at his position? Was he ever even thought of as one of the top 3? The answer to question 1 is no. The answer to question 2 is probably not. Heck, was he ever even the best player on his own team?
This seems to me to be the converse to the Dale Murphy argument. Sure, Thome gets props for being a great guy. I do think that matters, but his candidacy would not even have been considered if it wasn’t for the sustained longevity of his career. Now, I don’t want it to sound like that’s nothing, but unless you only look at the totality of his statistics does his credentials come into form.
by jerry morales rules on Dec 23, 2010 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
And, that "totality" is something that must be considered, IMO.
You have to be very good to be asked to stick around long enough to hit 600 HR.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes, without a doubt
But is “very good” for a long time really HoF worthy?
I’m undecided on it, but probably leaning toward inclusion. If he was a jerk, then I would have leaned the other way. He just doesn’t “feel” like an HoFer to me.
by jerry morales rules on Dec 23, 2010 12:40 PM CST up reply actions
The 600 HR do it for me for Thome.
The 3700+ strikeouts and 60 shutouts are awfully impressive for Blyleven. They’re comparable to Tom Seaver’s numbers.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You must not have been paying attention to the Indians or Phillies in the early 2000s
From 2001 to 2004 he hit 47, 52, 49 and 42 HRs. That to go along with great OBP% and SLG%. He was right there as the best power hitter those years with Bonds etc.
As far as Dale Murphy, he was better at his peak than Murphy. Murphy’s 6-year peak in OPS+ was 142, 149, 149, 152, 121, 157 (career mark of 121). Outside of those 6 years, Murphy highest mark was 135 and then nothing else over 121.
Thome’s 6-year peak in OPS+ was 141, 132, 170, 197, 154, 144 (career mark of 147). He also had 7 other years over 150 OPS+. Basically, Thome’s career average was Murphy’s peak.
The two are not even close to comparable.
Best "power hitter", sure, but "best ballplayer", no.
Comparing different players from different eras is not apples to apples, as I’m sure you know. However, one thing can be said … that Thome was a one dimensional player and Murphy was an all around threat.
Murphy was considered in the top 5 best ballplayers in the game for a period of time. Thome never was. I will say this, I think that I would be leaning “no” regarding Murphy and leaning “yes” regarding Thome. I just don’t think it’s as easy as it’s made out to be.
by jerry morales rules on Dec 23, 2010 7:16 PM CST up reply actions
if you use longevity
then Julio Franco needs to be in as well
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Jesse Orozco too
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 24, 2010 9:24 AM CST up reply actions
It's not JUST longevity, obviously.
Orosco does hold a significant major league record, games pitched. He was an effective closer for several seasons, a key part of a World Series winner, and helped define the role of “lefty specialist”.
Now, before you get all up in arms, I am NOT saying Orosco is a Hall of Famer — hardly. But he was a very good player for a long time.
He made his major league debut at Wrigley Field on Opening Day, April 5, 1979. The Mets were leading going into the last of the 9th 10-3; the Cubs scored three runs and Bill Buckner was coming up. The Mets brought in Orosco to face him, and Buckner flied out to end the game. (It was not a save situation.)
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes
Jim Thome is a Hall of Famer. Thus ends “Simple answers to simple questions.”
by Josh Timmers on Dec 22, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
He's a DH, so it will not likely be so simple
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 22, 2010 1:39 PM CST up reply actions
He played over 1100 games at first base
and over 490 at third base.
Thome did not become a full-time DH until he was traded to the White Sox. He played far more games in the field than he did as a DH.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 23, 2010 12:46 AM CST up reply actions
But he is known as a DH
and that is how the writers who vote will remember him. No one remembers him for his glove.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 23, 2010 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
Of course they don't.
But he hasn’t been a DH his whole career. If the writers only remember him as a DH, they’re not doing their homework.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Thome's top 10 comps
1. Frank Thomas (861)
2. Sammy Sosa (858)
3. Mike Schmidt (854) *
4. Harmon Killebrew (847) *
5. Mickey Mantle (842) *
6. Willie McCovey (840) *
7. Willie Stargell (826) *
8. Fred McGriff (825)
9. Manny Ramirez (819)
10. Jeff Bagwell (817)
Now, the top comp being 861, means these guys aren’t that comparable — a figure of 900 or more is usually required for that. But all of these players are HoFers, will be in, or are close to Hall worthy.
The best comp, I’d say, would be Killebrew — who also came up as a 3B, played some OF and 1B; Killebrew probably would have been a DH around the same time as Thome had the DH been in existence in the 1960’s.
If there were no DH now, Thome probably would have muddled along as a below-average defensive 1B, just because of his bat.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Thome will also be hurt by the inflated power numbers of his playing era
I used to believe if someone hit 500 homeruns, he should automatically be enshrined, no vote. Now, 500 is does not carry the same awe as it used to, steroids have a lot to do with that (and no, I am not suggesting Thome used) and that all will rub off on Thome. I will be shocked if Thome is voted in the first few go rounds.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 23, 2010 1:56 PM CST up reply actions
Doubtful
McGriff languishes because he lost the chance to get to 500 home runs due to the 1994-95 strike. Thome wasn’t really hurt by this. He’ll be fine while Crime Dog will not be.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
Also...
… McGriff was kind of a sour guy, at least by the time he got to the Cubs. Plus, 500 HR isn’t 600. Thome had five 40+ HR seasons, including four straight, and won a HR crown. McGriff won a HR crown, too, but never hit 40 HR. Not once.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
1994 would have been his 40 HR season
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
Why not McGriff
I’m very surprised at the small amount of votes he received here. The Crime Dog fell a few homers short of 500,was an excellent First baseman, and also a class player.
You can make a good argument for McGriff
But I think there are better candidates right now.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 22, 2010 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
Jeff Bagwell
was clearly a better player than Fred McGriff. The only advantage McGriff has on him is HRs (493 to 449) and even there, Bagwell had a higher SLG.
On top of that, Bagwell was a much better defensive 1B than McGriff, at least until the end of Bagwell’s career when he could no longer throw the ball at all.
Also Mark McGwire, but we’ll leave him out of the discussion for now.
I’d argue that a lot of players on the list were better than McGriff despite having inferior hitting lines—Larkin and Alomar-because they played premium defensive positions and they played them very well.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 22, 2010 1:03 PM CST up reply actions
McGriff wasn't very classy in his time with the Cubs.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Al I don't know
what went on with the Crime Dogs one year that he played with the Cubs, But he can not be Judged on that alone.
No, I suppose not.
Still, I don’t have many pleasant memories of his time with the Cubs, a team he didn’t really want to play for in the first place.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
McGriff
He lost time to get to 500 home runs due to the 1994-95 strike. In 1994, he was hitting home runs at a rate of 14.1 AB/HR and before the strike began, he was at 34 home runs. He hit 27 home runs the following season in 144 games. He lost his chance to get to 500 home runs those seasons. I know. Coulda should woulda, right? Win shares rates him pretty well and so does WAR.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
Alomar, Bagwell, Edgar Martinez, Raines and Blyleven
The others have all been covered by several other people, so here’s why the case for Edgar. Despite getting a late start and having injuries wipe out a season plus in his prime (reducing his career totals in the counting statistics), he was a dominant hitter, clearly one of the best of his generation.
I get the knock that he was “only” a DH. That’s fair. But rightly or wrongly, MLB changed its rules to create that position, so where do voters get off turning up their noses and saying someone who plays that position better than the others isn’t worthy of induction into the HOF? A baseball DH is just as deserving of a place in the HOF as a punter in football. If the position is important enugh to be on the field, then the very best to play that position deserve real consideration for the HOF. Edgar was the best, in my view, and deserves induction.
Edgar Martinez was a fine hitter for a long time.
But his career numbers don’t come close, IMO, to Hall-worthy.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Kingdome
Edgar’s best seasons came when he was playing his home games at the Kingdome, which was a hitter’s stadium. I never went to the Kingdome and am glad the thing got imploded.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Look up his career home/road splits
and then tell me the Kingdome made Edgar Martinez. The Kingdome didn’t hurt him, sure. But any hitter in the history of MLB would have loved to have Edgar’s road numbers.
He also had one of his best seasons in SafeCo Field, which was, and still is, death to RHBs.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Dec 28, 2010 2:43 PM CST up reply actions
If you don't vote for Bagwell his cousin is going to come to your house and suplex you.
We can't win at home. We can't win on the road. I just can't figure out where else to play!
-- Pat Williams
by Fat Punk Kicker on Dec 22, 2010 10:37 AM CST reply actions
My SBN Christmas List:
—Mobile site improved to see recommended comments, be able to ‘z’ around the page, etc.
—Voting allows for multiple selections.
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Dec 22, 2010 12:37 PM CST via mobile reply actions
you forgot embeddable midi files in posts.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 22, 2010 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
Raines will never make it in...
He played the majority of his career in Montreal, and those sorts of numbers fall on deaf ears.
It’s sad that the biggest comp that Baseball Reference gives him is Lou Brock, and for a few years, Rickey Henderson.
808 SB
170 HR
.374 wOBA
2605 hits
1330 BB
.294 avg
I’m not even sure why he wasn’t a first ballot guy. Spectacular career.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
The back end of his career hurt him
People who watched him play in the 1980’s would say Raines was a great player. If you watched him play in the 1990’s, you wouldn’t say he was a great player.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
He Was Merely Good in the Early 1990's Then Tailed Off
I thought he was still a good, not great, player with the White Sox. Then, he was just a part-timer with the Yankees.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Tim Raines and Ted Simmons
are probably the two guys at the top of my list that I think did not get the HOF consideration that they deserved.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
2472 hits, 117 OPS+, .285 AVG, nearly 250 HR's
and mostly as a catcher. I always thought he was underrated.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
And I should add I'm not saying he was necessarily a HOF'er
but there was no discussion around him at all. One year, 17 votes and he was gone.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Simmons belongs in the HOF
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
Respectfully disagree.
Another member of the Hall of Very Good.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I see the argument for Simmons in the Hall
He was the second-best catcher in baseball (after Bench) in the 1970s, although that comes with a huge caveat—pretty much all of his value comes from his offense. Another organization would have moved him to first base, but the Cardinals had Joe Torre and then Keith Hernandez there. Lou Brock was in LF, so that was out too. So the Cardinals just rode him out at catcher and hoped he wouldn’t hurt them too badly.
All of the Simmons argument is that he was a HOF hitter, for a catcher. But he was such a terrible catcher that I don’t think you can credit him for that. Would his numbers hold up at as a HOF Left fielder? I think the answer is no, unlike, say, Mike Piazza.
So while I’m sympathetic to the Simmons to the Hall argument, ultimately I’m on your side, Al.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 24, 2010 3:39 PM CST up reply actions
It's a real shame that Randy Hundley succumbed to those knee injuries.
There were people who said, around 1968 or 1969, that at least defensively, he was Bench’s equal. Of course, he wasn’t anywhere close to Bench as a hitter, but he surely could have put up a long career if not for the injuries.
So could Ray Fosse, for that matter.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Fisk and Munson
I think Fisk and Munson were thought of as better catchers than Simmons in the 1970’s. Of course, they were in Boston and New York, respectively, in the 1970’s, while Simmons was in St. Louis. Simmons was the second best catcher in the National League back then. Even fast forward to the early 1980’s, Fisk was in Chicago, while Simmons was in Milwaukee. Sadly, Munson wasn’t around. Even then, Fisk was in a more high-profile market than Simmons. I think for borderline candidates that where they played matters. It shouldn’t be like that, but it is like that.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Sadly, he probably won't make it in
The 808 SB were at a 85% success rate too, which is insane for a whole career. If he wasn’t a contemporary of Henderson, I think he’d have had a chance in spite of playing his best years north of the border. As it is, I’m half-surprised he’s still on the ballot…
Alomar, Bagwell, Blyleven. That's my list.
My prediction is Alomar and Blyleven will get in this year. Bagwell will get in proably next year, but I doubt he’ll be a first-ballot guy. Edgar Martinez will get in eventually, but not this year. It’s very rare to have more than two players elected by the baseball writers, unless it’s a year like Brett-Ryan-Yount….three no-brainers.
I’ve come around on Blyleven. I never saw much of him since he was an AL guy, and since he was not really a household name. But the more I study his stats, I agree that he should have been in years ago.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
I voted for Tram
if I had more votes, Blyleven, Mattigly and Smith come to mind. 1/2 these guys shouldn’t even be on the list.
13- Warner, 23- Sandberg, 40- Tillman, 11- Walter
Mattingly
I have to admit that I have a soft spot for Mattingly even though I don’t support his candidacy. It’s hard not to like Donnie Baseball.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
agreed
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
There's nothing wrong with not being a Hall of Famer
and it’s no insult to say that Mattingly was a great player, but not a Cooperstown candidate.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 24, 2010 3:41 PM CST up reply actions
Another career derailed by injuries.
At age 28 his career numbers were .323/.368/.521 and he was averaging 208 hits per 162 games. If not for the back injuries, Mattingly would surely have had 3000+ hits and would have, at the tail end of his career, been part of the late 90’s Yankees championship teams.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
A side story about Bagwell....
My friend and I were at Wrigley late this season during batting practice, and Bagwell (the Astros’ hitting coach this year) was standing behind the backstop watching his team hit. There was hardly anyone there yet, so my friend and I probably stood out standing right behind the Cubs on deck circle, asking any Cubs player who walked by for their autograph. One player (a rookie nonetheless) walked right by us three times without even looking at us, even though he was an arm’s distance away. We weren’t even yelling, just politely holding out a ball to them for them to sign. It’s not like they would have gotten stuck either, because again we were the only ones in that area at the time.
Bagwell seemed to notice that we were getting the shaft by our own team and walked over to us and said, “I’ll sign your ball.” He even stood by to take a photo with my friend, who was a big fan of his. He was polite, very nice, and shook both of our hands before going back to watch batting practice.
This from quite possibly the best hitter in Astros history (along with Biggio, in my opinion). He probably thought it was pretty pathetic how our crappy team was treating their own fans. I thought it was a pretty classy move by him.
Even before that day at Wrigley, he’s a Hall of Famer in my book along with Blyleven (and Pete Rose).
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bleed Cubbie Blue
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
Cubs By The Numbers
Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.
Click here to order your copy, available now!
Recent Stories in Chicago Cubs Game Threads
Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- College player makes impossible over the fence catch to save tournament game (Video)
- Security!: Camden Yards guard collides with Royals’ Mike Moustakas
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
