Tackling Trade Rumors
by cubsfan1 on Dec 9, 2010 6:42 AM CST
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PrintI'm just gonna tackle some of these trade rumors and give my take then let you all discuss.
I'm not getting a real clear picture of what we are offering but it is said our deal is the most attractive right now. I'm hearing maybe Chirinos and a SS, maybe Barney or Lake and maybe an arm like Dolis. I'd do that in a heartbeat. Not sure how much they want a ML ready Barney as it seeems they are ready to hand the SS duties over to Reid Brignac so I would have to think Lake. While Lake made some strides this year he's still a pretty raw player. I believe in Chirinos bat and really would like to hold onto him but in this deal I'd be for moving him.
Garza regularly posted K/9 rates in the 9's in the minors and while he posted 6.6 last year a move to the N.L. and out of the patient A.L. East I could see that number jumping up. His walk rate improved last year but he does give up some HR. He reminds me in stuff and profile of Jared Weaver.
Tigers are said to be very interested. I'd like to see Scott Sizemore playing 2B for the Cubs. I have not heard anything specific so I'm just speculating. I wonder if we could tempt the the Tigers into giving us Casey Crosby a guy who was shut down in June for elbow problems. He did have TJS after being drafted but this could be a huge reward type player. He was the Tigers #2 prospect coming into 2010 and has an electric LH arm.
Chris Davis/Darren O' Day 4 Chirinos/Dolis:
This is a deal I hate. The thing is I beleive in Chirinos bat and feel Dolis could be ready by the end of the year to be a late inning power arm out of the pen. O'Day has posted back to back excellent seasons but releivers are such a crap shoot especially when they are not power arms. I see RP post a great season or 2 but you rarley see any releiver do it long term. Guys like Matt Thornton and Scott Shields are the exception not the rule. Chris Davis looks like a AAAA player to me. I've seen him play numerous times and his approach is just awfull and he never seems to havve a grasp of what he should be trying to do at the plate nor a clue as to what pitch should be coming.
This had to be a quick take because I gotta get off to work. I'll continue to update this thread.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Agreed entirely, good post
Chirinos, Lake, and Dolis for Garza would be a good deal.
Sizemore might give us a good leadoff man.
I believe in Chirinos’ bat, too.
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
AL: This is for you
You’ve asked me before why I thought the Texas deal was bad and I didn’t respond because you obviously don’t care to see anything from anyone elses point of view. But here I"ll respond. Relievers are a crap shoot and Davis is a wild card who I doubt has interest from anyone else and his trade vcalue is nil.
There is a reason why Texas and T.B. are interested in Chirinos……It’s because they do a good job of evaluating talent and obviously believe in Chirinos. So why would trade Chirinos AND Dolis for a finesse releiver and a wild card probable AAAA player? Chirinos could help net us an established player in Garza who is young and just entering his prime or maybe someone else of that level.
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/
by cubsfan1 on Dec 9, 2010 7:16 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
That........
………is why the Texas deal amkes little sense for us.
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/
Because the Cubs have catching depth.
Chirinos is a backup who’s only caught for three years.
I’d like a major league reliever with experience — now World Series experience — and the chance that Davis could turn into a productive major league hitter.
I don’t see other teams lining up for Chirinos.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
T.B.
Is also interested in Chirinos and would return a good ML player. What would you rather have Garza or Davis and O’Day?
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/
Now on that, I will agree with you.
If Chirinos could bring Garza, absolutely. That’s a better deal, even including Dolis.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If this is the deal than go even throw in a Thomas
Chirinos could be lightening in a bottle, but even if the Cubs keep him he plays no more than 80 games….60 likely unless Soto gets hurt.
Barney is what is Barney was…a fine utility player
Dolis could be the real deal but he is not there yet.
So a projection, a utility and a promise….for a real deal….throw in someone else, Thomas or another projected promise.
Then work some more margins, trading either Gorz or Wells for an established reliever and put this roster back again.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
Dolis could also be the next Roberto Novoa.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
World Series experience!!!
lets bring back Clay Rapada
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 9, 2010 2:00 PM CST up reply actions
Do that deal for Garza in a heartbeat...
….they lack catching depth in their system and Barney would likely fill in for Brignac as the utility man next season, as Brignac would be promoted to the starting SS. If that plus Lake gets it done, it should be a no-brainer.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Disagree on the Rangers deal.
Chirinos is 27 in June and has only been catching for three years. He’s only hit for the last two.
Dolis has talent but is still pretty raw. The Cubs have tried similar “power arms” in the ML bullpen with mixed success.
OTOH, O’Day is already a solid major league reliever and Davis gives the Cubs at least a shot at developing a 1B replacement for Pena.
I’d make that deal.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
SEE ABOVE
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/
Why are you so gung ho on Chris Davis?
Even at his peak value, he was only ranked the #74 overall prospect (2008). I envision an even worse version of Mark Reynolds.
Why do you want that?
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
Garza Deal
I have to think Chirinos, Lake, and Dolis is way light for Garza- I couldn’t do that deal fast enough. I had heard that TB wants ML-ready players whose service clock hasn’t started yet or just started. Hearing BJax & Archer are off the table, that sounds like Cashner headlining, which I’m grudgingly ok with. Garza has 4 more yrs of arb(Super 2), if I’m not mistaken, and just turned 27. That is a move that makes the Cubs more competitive now and going forward. Take a look at the FA mkt for bats and arms next yr-brutal.
by Mmurton on Dec 9, 2010 8:05 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Agree
i’d agree with that post.
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/
I could see the price including Cashner....
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
Fine. Do it.
Throw in Colvin.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
Cashner...
Reports show that the Padres wanted Cashner in any Gonzalez deal and the Cubs wouldn’t budge on him. Doubt they would reconsider for Garza.
I sincerely doubt Cashner was the reason the Cubs did not get A-Gon
It was likely that while the negotiated they really were never going to offer the kind of extension needed to keep him and without that the trade would make no sense.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 9, 2010 11:07 AM CST up reply actions
Me too.
If, for no other reason, than so people realize I don’t hate Garza.
Chirinos, Lake, & Dolis for Garza?? Done.
Shut up Joe Morgan.
3 yrs of arb
for Garza, in his 2nd yr this yr
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 9, 2010 2:02 PM CST up reply actions
I'd much rather keep Cashner than Archer....
if only because of physical attributes.
I like Archer alot. He’s got a good arm, but I’m less sold on him as a starter than Cashner.
Not to be a weird guy with dumb trade ideas...
but what if this became a Marmol trade that looked like this:
Rays get:
Marmol – The whole sell high on relievers thing. They’re losing their bullpen.
Colvin – I’d really prefer him over Jackson.
Dolis – They really want relievers, and Cubs have those.
Cubs get:
Garza
Upton
Lobstein
Wow you really are trying to sell high.
Rays won’t do that. First they aren’t getting enough in return and second Marmol is too expensive for them. That is why they are trading Garza.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Looking for a thesaurus to find a synonym for "yuck" to describe the Rays response
If two years of Marcum netted a likely top 25 prospect in Lawrie … three years of Garza should net more than that.
Lets try...
Rays get:
Marmol
Lee
Colvin
Dolis
Raley
Cubs get:
Garza
Upton
not Lobstein or someone high ranking.
don’t think the Rays would be interested in Marmol (only 2 yrs of team control left) as a centerpiece and Colvin has team control but looks like a 4th OF
I think people need to start looking at Colvin this way
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
Not really
It is too soon to tell about Colvin. Maybe he is a 4th OF or maybe he continues his progress and becomes a solid everyday OF. 2011 will be a good indicator.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 14, 2010 7:42 AM CST up reply actions
I'm hoping for the latter, but I have my doubts.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
as do I, but too soon to assume the negative
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 15, 2010 7:47 AM CST up reply actions
Scott Sizemore
I hadn’t heard that name mentioned until this thread, but I think a Gorzo for Sizemore swap would be an excellent move. Our one glaring area of need right now is leadoff, and the one place we can plug in a leadoff type in the field is 2B. Understood that Sizemore hasn’t had much success in the majors yet, and that it might be a stretch for him to start the year as our leadoff, he has a nice minor league OBP, and had a 9.2 BB% in the majors last year.
Not sure what the Tigers think of him, and he struggled with some injuries last year, but if they are down on him, he’s a guy I’d love for the Cubs to get.
I'd love Sizemore and Garza, but what about Webb?
Sizemore and Garza — both young guys, relatively up and coming, that fill needs on our team right now. Do the trades for them (i.e. Gorzelanny for Sizemore, whatever prospects for Garza)
Also the Trib is reporting we may be in the FA hunt for Brandon Webb — the classic Hendry reclamation project (ala Ryan Dempster, who turned out pretty well). Personally, I’d do that deal in a heartbeat — Webb’s a sinker ball pitcher that (if healthy, a big caveat, I realize) could be a PHENOMENAL pitcher at Wrigley….I mean, the guy is 31 (same age as Cliff Lee), and was pretty much DOMINANT from 2006-2008. The injury in 2009 should be healed by now, right? Even at 80% of what he was in 2006-2008, he’d be a bargain…
Re: Webb
One would hope the injury has healed, but supposedly he’s had to significantly alter his mechanics to compensate for the damage to his shoulder. Nobody knows how the sinker will play right now, or if the velocity can come back. I like rolling the dice on Webb for the right money. If we did trade for Garza, he’d only have to be the fifth starter really (Dempster, Zambrano, Garza, Wells/Silva, Webb).
I'm not saying don't do it, but...
The success of guys coming back from shoulder problems is much, MUCH more checkered than those coming back from elbow issues.
Shut up Joe Morgan.
How about Kevin Slowey?
Twins are rumored to be interested in trading him. Following the trend that it’s easier to pitch in the NL would definitely help him. He also has a high ground-ball rate which is good for Wrigley.
Correction
Totally misread his stats. He has a very high flyball rate. He would not be a good fit at Wrigley which means in past Cubs acquisitions I’d bet money they’ll try to acquire him.
Bold Blockbuster
Fukudome, Gorzelanny, DeWitt, Dolis and Chirinos
For Mike Young, Chris Davis and O’Day
Benefits for Texas: Removing Young’s 2012 & 2013 salary burden so they can sign Adrian Beltre. DeWitt is an upgrade backup at 2B/3B, Gorzellany a cheap starter option, Chirinos is cheap and possibly better than any remaining FA catcher, Fukudome is a nice 4th outfielder and Texas could use the DH position to rest Hamilton and Cruz from time to time. Dolis or a comparable prospect is just part of the price for getting a player like Young. I could see another young pitcher being included to sweeten this deal. Texas could also flip some of this package to acquire Garza or Greinke if Lee signs elsewhere.
Benefits for Cubs: Young is a big offensive upgrade at 2B and could be slid back to 3B if Ramirez doesn’t come back in 2012. Salaries are close to a wash for 2011. O’Day provides experienced bullpen piece. Davis provides depth at 1B where Cubs have none. He also has some experience at 3B and LF, so he may be a LH bench option if he makes the team.
Do we know that Young can still play 2B?
Seems like we are giving up an awful lot to get back a failed prospect and decent middle reliever, and a bad contract that the Rangers can’t wait to get off thee books. For sure I don’t think we would need to put Gorz in that deal, and maybe not Dolis either.
by JSB on Dec 9, 2010 2:27 PM CST up reply actions
Why not?
Don’t see a reason why he couldn’t play 2B again. Texas didn’t need him to play 2B when they aquired Andrus, so he went to 3B where they needed him more.
He was excellent defensive 2B at the start of his career
He’s only two seasons removed from being the regular SS
All-Star from 2004 – 2009
Young’s remaining 3 years/$16 per might be on the high side, but I image it’s not that far off what he could command on the open market (at least this year!) Would he be worth $13 mil/per year on a 3 year contract? The $9 million difference would be close to the amount we are overpaying Fukudome in 2011.
I would love this deal even more if the Cubs didn’t need to include the pitchers, but I’m being realistic. Young is an all-star level starter. I don’t expect them to give him up just for a platoon/4th OF, backup IF and an old catching prospect.
I don't think Young is worth that
Even as a 2B. He is also in the decline phase of his career as evidenced by his mediocre year last year. Don’t really want to be buying into that.
by JSB on Dec 9, 2010 4:05 PM CST up reply actions
this is terrible
One of two guys on the team who gets on base, a young inexpensive LH starter, a young, inexpensive LH 2B, a young power arm with upside and, by all reports, a catcher with potential for a fading star with a bloated contract, a AAAA 1st baseman with no clue at the plate and a middle reliever. Ridiculous.
by SouthWabashSoul on Dec 9, 2010 9:07 PM CST up reply actions
link/source on the Garza price???
Dolis, Chirinos, Barney just seems really light
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 9, 2010 2:09 PM CST reply actions
Just heard Buster Onley
say the Cubs were in talks with Brandon Webb…one of four teams in the hunt.
God no? Meh? Hell yes?
"What the hell, let's review it." - Dale Tallon
"They are!" - Pat Foley
"What a farce." - Dale Tallon
Hell yes...
…with a slight asterisk. The price matters…..but rolling the dice on a Cy Young winner 2 years out from shoulder surgery (i.e. when he should start coming back), who is a sinker-ball pitcher (great for Wrigley) is a great idea if you’re not gonna overspend for guys like Cliff Lee.
Best case scenario — Webb comes back and is 95-100% of his 2006-2008 self (i.e. Cy Young, Ace type material). Worst case — he never makes the field. Middle case: he ends up being a decent 3-5th starter, but the Cubs didn’t sign him long and didn’t overpay him, so he doesn’t hamstring their roster.
I’d take that….perfectly smart signing at the right price.
Meh
He is likely washed up. But for that 1% chance of lightning in a bottle, why not?
by SouthWabashSoul on Dec 9, 2010 9:09 PM CST up reply actions
Worth exploring
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 10, 2010 7:53 AM CST up reply actions
Going on memory
his agent talked about a Sheets type deal – $10 million. I’d think the response to that would be “Sheets was bad and is currently rehabing from a double surgery.”
Does anyone know why Robinson Chirinos has not become a minor league free agent?
He’s been in the Cubs system since 2000. My initial thought is that he resigned with the Cubs at the end of his first contract, possibly when he was switching positions.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
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