Some of the best players in history came to camp at 19 or 20 and made it," Hendry said. "I think in a realistic world, [Starlin Castro] would probably need a little more time."
about 2 years ago
DGU
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Also, Bruce Miles'
GM Jim Hendry wouldn’t close the door on shortstop phenom Starlin Castro making the club out of camp, but he seemed to lean toward giving the soon-to-be 20-year-old Castro at least a little more time in the minors.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
The other Bruce ...
(Levine) seems ot think Castro should (will
sorry ...
Levine seems to think the Cubs would be better off with Castro playing every day, even if he hit .250, http://chicagocubsonline.com/archives/2010/02/cubsrumors21010.php.
I'm not so sure Theriot would be an "upgrade" at 2B...
… as the article says.
I agree with the rest of Levine’s points. I would not be surprised to see the Cubs acquire Jason Frasor from Toronto.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's interesting ...
Would Theriot be an upgrade over Baker/Fontenot? My low opinion of Fontenot is pretty well known around here, but is Baker a better player than Theriot? I’d have to look at the numbers, especially on defense.
Castro’s possible emergence might explain some of the smaller moves the Cubs have made this offseason. If Castro makes the team, presumably two bench spots would open up — there would be less of a need for Blanco (Theriot is the backup at short) and less of a need for Fontenot (Theriot would be the starter at second, Baker would be the backup).
We know two bench spots are decided, barring injuries (Nady, Hill) and a third one is pretty much decided (Fuld — unless the Cubs decide to open the year with Kosuke as the backup in center). But the other two spots could change a lot if Castro makes the team …
Bench with Castro:
Hill, Nady, Fuld, Baker, Tracy/Fontenot/Millar/Hoff
Bench without Castro
Hill Nady, Fuld, Blanco and ??
The last spot would be up for grabs among the guy who doesn’t start in the Baker/Fontenot platoon, Tracy, Millar and Hoff.
Thoughts on this? Am I trying to read too many tea leaves?
I think we'd lose a lot offensively...
… with Castro/Theriot, as opposed to Theriot and a Baker/Fontenot modified platoon. Granted that Theriot’s defense at SS is not good.
Next year, should be moot, with Castro at SS and Baker likely ensconced at 2B.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
explain your concerns about defense with Castro and Theriot ...
Would they really be worse than Theriot and Fontenot/Baker?
I think you instantly get better defensively
By putting Castro’s speed, range, and arm at SS and putting Theriot at a position that requires less range and a much shorter throw.
Theriot has good #s at 2B
while Baker is a converted 3B, who may be average at the position, but may easily be below average.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
Read my post again.
I said we would lose OFFENSE with Castro/Theriot, not defense.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Right - I agree with you Al
I was responding to the other poster on defense.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
Im not 100% sure we lose all that much offensively
We would still have Theriot’s singles bat at 2B with Baker/Fontenot able to back him up. All that Castro would have to do is be an average hitter to match what Baker has done in the past. Baker’s career line in just under 800 AB is:
.270/.326/.455
That includes last year where in 200+ AB he went .305/.362/.448, which inflates his career averages as well. Now the question is, was last year the anomoly or is he simply improving as a player?
He has some decent pop, but doesn’t blow anyone away with his average or OBP skills. He also played most of his career in Coors, which obviously inflates power numbers. I think with how much we improve defensively, and how much potential Castro has, we wouldn’t lose much, if anything, overall.
All told
when you account for minor league #s, it’s hard to see how Theriot would be a better 2B than Baker, defense included.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
This is a small sample size warning
But in 536 innings at 2B Theriot shows better range and a UZR of 6.8 as opposed to Baker in 755 innings showing a UZR of 1.3.
Defense looks like an improvement. Offensively, I personally dont believe Baker will get anywhere near Theriots AVG and OBP splits, and will have a bit more pop, but probably less than his career averages (coors effect), I think Baker would hold a slah line of around .275/.330/.415 … something Theriot outproduce.
I accept that Theriot will be better defensively
but I find it very hard to believe that Riot will get close to .400 with SLG. The most optimistic projection for him gets his SLG to .367. Last year’s SLG for Riot includes the failed experiment to have him hit to all fields; once pitchers saw what he was doing, he was dominated in that mode and had to go back to his old mode. And when he did go back, he wasn’t able to get on base well, either. That story is told in his monthly splits.
On the other hand, you’re working with the most pessmistic of Baker’s projections. Bill James thinks .288/.337/.460 is possible, and I agree with James here. Basically I think you’re over-working the “Coors effect” which is not as strong as it once was. Baker has real power (not lots of it, but real power) and greater potential than Riot. If Riot can’t get his OBP up to at least .350, he’s worthless to us because he has no utility in the lineup, but Baker should be a good down lineup option with the ability to drive in leftover guys on base.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
I should clarify, and I do agree with many of your points
I did not mean to sound as if Theriot would slug over .400, but simply that if he could hit .300/.360/.365 AND Castro was ready to take over SS, I would prefer the Theriot/Castro combo over the Theriot/Baker combo. Also to clarify I hope we’re done with the Theriot as a power bat experiment.
As for Bakers projections, I’m really not sure what to expect of him. I can see your .288/.337/.460 line coming true if he platoons and only plays in favorable spots. If he were an every day player, I would expect my slash projections are more likely. Honestly though, just a guess – im not Bill James here.
The fact of the matter is, the Cubs have options, and I’m just happy that we’re even able to argue about the 4 potential middle infielders that could start for the Cubs this year, even if none are on superstar levels (yet!)
how about
a Castro/Baker combo? I’d be down with that.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Feb 10, 2010 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
I would, too...
… but in 2011, not this year.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's fair
It’s definitely realistic to be suspicious of Baker. He hasn’t proven it yet. I just Theriot doesn’t get run out there regardless of production, simply because Theriot was the SS starter and is higher in the pecking order.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
All that Castro would have to do
is be an average hitter? As a 20 year old, you are hoping he matches Baker’s line of .270/.326/.455?
No problem.
I didnt say those numbers were average
nor did I ever express that I thought Castro would put up a near .800 OPS, so Im really not sure at all where you got that idea from.
Well you said
“All that Castro would have to do is be an average hitter to match what Baker has done in the past. Baker’s career line in just under 800 AB is:
.270/.326/.455"
That sure sounds like looking to Castro to match Baker’s average perormance. If I read it wrong then my error.
Sorry, I try and condense my thoughts and sometimes I move on too quickly
My thought process is that since Castro is a major improvement defensively, he wouldnt need to match Baker offensively to be as valuable to the team – and simply made note of what kind of offensive production Baker has had in his career.
I personally think Castro could hit .250/.305/.400 if he came up now.
based on what?
I’m honestly asking, because I don’t know.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Feb 10, 2010 2:38 PM CST up reply actions
You're asking where i'm pulling that slash line from??
My ass – take it for what it’s worth (which is somewhere between nothing and jack shit). It’s just a gut feeling from his progression so far and seeing what he’s done and his projected growth.
PECOTA has no numbers for him, so … just going out on a limb!
fair enough. :D
In 2009 (not including Winter League), he played in 127 games, with a line of .299/.342/.392, resulting in an OPS of .734. That’s High-A ball, right?
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=SS&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=516770
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Feb 11, 2010 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
Note that Levine is saying the Cubs think of Baker as a part-time player only.
If the Cubs look at Baker and look at Fontenot as part-timers only, well, then, Theriot as a “winning-type” player is an “upgrade.”
Setting aside the Castro part, if the Cubs were looking at Baker and Riot at 2B, I could live with a job sharing situation; you play Baker when you want power and Riot when you want speed; Riot when you want defense and Baker when you want offense; plus Baker can get time backing up other players and Riot can spell Castro.
But it would seem a poor distribution of playing time if Riot was picking up any more than 3/4 of the 2B playing time.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
I agree with you
Castro needs to have a stellar spring, it seems, not just a good one.
I just don't see the point...
… of rushing a guy who hasn’t played above Double-A yet.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If he's ready, then it's rushing him
And he would improve our defense at short. I’m not saying the Cubs should necessarily do this. But what if Castro hits .400 in Mesa?
Gary Scott had a great spring training in 1991.
They gave him the 3B job. It was a big mistake.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Was Gary Scott as highly
regarded as Castro is as a prospect? I was not privy to the Cubs minor league system back in ‘91 so I don’t know.
"Dad gum right this games gonna be played under protest. . . I guarantee this is gonna be one protest that's upheld." --Hawk Harrelson, 6/24/07
No, in fact, he wasn't.
He kind of came out of nowhere.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't remember him as that...
… but I’ll take your word for it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I remember him a bit more because I remember seeing him in the minors
and thinking the Cubs had something. I was wrong.
at what cost?
I have never heard a suggestion that had Scott gone to AAA he would have ever done anything more than he wound up doing.
Eamus Ursuli!
That's impossible to know.
By the time he had failed to hit major league pitching, it is my opinion that his head was so screwed up that there was no way he could have succeeded.
He should have been sent to Triple-A for at least one full season.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
1992
He made the team again in 1992, after, as I recall another strong spring.
Wouldn’t that seem to suggest that perhaps he was just one of those fluky players that kills in ST and is not destined for major league success?
Eamus Ursuli!
Actually, IIRC he did NOT have as good a spring in 1992.
The Cubs just had no other choices at the time.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think you're right ...
though his spring was solid in ’92, I think.
well, maybe ...
I mean, are you saying that Gary Scott would have been better had he played more in the minors? Because he was sent down early in the year and had nearly a full season there.
Anyway, do you think Castro should be in AAA regardless of how well he performs?
The answers to your questions are...
… yes and yes.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
wow
We just totally disagree here.
1) On Gary Scott, I don’t think the Cubs ruined him by bringing him up to earlier. Hurt their chances in ‘91? Sure. But he was sent down, got a bunch of playing time in Iowa, and failed again in 1992. I don’t think Gary Scott was EVER going to be that good of an MLB player.
2) Castro would have to have a helluva spring for me to think he should make the team. But IF he has a helluva spring …
Almost 20 years later, it's hard to recall.
But I have to believe Scott probably put way too much pressure on himself after he was given the job too soon. That probably trickled down to his AAA performance.
Had they left him in the minors on a proper development course, maybe by 1993 or 1994 he could have become a productive ML player. Obviously, we’ll never know.
It’s a cautionary tale to anyone looking at a guy having a “helluva spring”. If that were the case, Scott McClain would be headed to the Hall of Fame.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
no one said it's easy to make these decisions
My guess is that Castro doesn’t play well enough this spring to get the starting job with the big club. So this debate will be moot.
But what if he’s actually ready? Given everything that’s been discussed about the Cubs and their closing window with this nucleus, shouldn’t they throw everything and the kitchen sink at 2010?
What would he have to do to be "actually ready"?
65 at-bats hitting .400 in spring training, IMO, doesn’t qualify.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
we're talking hypotheticals ...
So how about this?
Theriot gets hurt in ST, and he won’t be back until the All-Star break. Meanwhile, Castro has a good spring — say he hits .320 and plays good defense.
In such a situation, I would rather start Castro every day, with Blanco as the backup than start Blanco every day and have to find another backup middle infielder.
My point is, there are situations where Castro could be needed at the MLB level in April.
OK, in THAT hypothetical...
… maybe. And even if Castro starts the year at Tennessee, he could be called up.
But you’re positing someone to get hurt. I don’t like to think that way.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I still disagree
In your scenario, I go with Blanco and Barney.
Castro will turn 20 in Spring Training. He has had 100 AB in AA. I don’t think we will be close to ready. Even A-Rod had 200 AB’s at AAA and no one is putting Castro in that category. I’m not even sure he isin the Justin Upton category who was probably the last really young player to start.
Also don’t forget Castro’s defense last season was very shaky at times. People forget his fielding percentage for the year was .937.
I think people are getting too excited over Castro. He should get another year in the minors.
I agree that I'd start Barney.
Castro needs time.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
I think people get too excited about stats like fielding %
Let’s stick to the fact that although he will make a few more errors due to being young, he will get to far more balls than Theriot will.
It is more than that
There were numerous reports that his defense at SS was shaky at times. That is part of the reason why there is a question whether he can stick there. He is not ready.
The concern is not whether or not he can stick there
The reason people are discussing him moving to 2B in the future is because Lee has absolutely incredible range at SS – there are no fears about Castro being able to stay at SS.
well said
I cannot see any scenario where it would be a smart move to bring up Castro to start this season with the Cubs. If Theriot goes down, use Blanco and Barney , or go get a stopgap veteran SS. Castro needs to play in AAA.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 10, 2010 5:30 PM CST up reply actions
Would the Jays want Fontenot?
It might not be the best fit for them given the good year Hill had and the insurance they have in McDonald, but Fontenot and cash or someone like Caridad/Gray for Frasor might not be bad
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Feb 10, 2010 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
No, I don't the Jays would make that deal.
They are looking for pieces to build for the future, 2010 is a rebuilding year for them.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Feb 10, 2010 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
Im confused by your response here...
Why would getting Fontenot mean they werent rebuilding?? He isn’t exactly breaking the bank at 1MM and he’s under control for what, 3 more years??
I meant the Jays wouldn't
trade a player with any value for Fontenot. If that’s all it would take to make the deal, I think the deal would have already been made.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Feb 10, 2010 3:41 PM CST up reply actions
As of now, Fontenot is a major part of our 2B platoon
And I don’t think that the Cubs are looking to move him and trust either Baker as a full time 2B or trust Castro as a full time SS yet.
Dumb
Castro is not a generational type player like Griffey and A-Rod. He should not make the team in the spring. I doubt very much that he would hit .250. Plus as I understand his defense still needs some work too.
“No one seems to know what to expect out of Carlos Silva”….seems like he is stating the obvious.
I like the idea
of the potential of Castro, he appears to have wonderful upside, however can he play some games at AAA, can we get a better feel after he faces guys that make MLB money.
This talk, and Levine having penciled him at starting SS is beyond premature.
Goodness spring training can’t get here soon enough. And this freaking snow can stop anytime soon.
I like that Hendry said Castro needed more time in the minors in a realistic scenario.
I expect we’ll see Castro start the year in the minors, Nady start the year on the DL and the Cubs break camp with a bench of:
Tracy, Blanco, Hill, Baker/Fontenot, Fuld
I think that when Nady is ready Blanco will get the axe and not too much longer, once we’re past the service time danger zone, Castro will come up unless all of Riot, Baker, and Fontenot are playing well or unless Castro is showing that he needs more development time.
It’s really important that Fontenot and Baker start 2010 hot.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
It's snowing like crazy here too - Hurry up spring and get here already!
I wouldn’t want to see Castro play in Chicago before he is good and ready. Based on everything I’ve read here, it sounds like he still needs a year (or two) in the minors.
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Losing Blanco and Fontenot
To me the biggest short term risk in keeping Castro for opening day might be the loss of potentially both Andres Blanco and Mike Fontenot.
If you keep Castro up, moving Theriot into a SS/2B backup/platoon situation, both Castro and Fontentot get squeezed out. Now, if Castro is ready to play nearly everyday, this isn’t a bad thing. But, if he needed to retreat to AAA in May we could have a problem.
Eamus Ursuli!
It's possible that
either Baker or Fontenot would be part of a spring training trade for pitching.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
that's interesting ...
Castro has a great spring, the Cubs trade Baker or Fontenot, Theriot shares second with whoever’s left. Bench becomes:
Hill, Nady, Fuld, Baker/Fontenot, Tracy
This becomes tricky though
Because the main benefit of Fontenot is that he’s a left handed platoon for whoever starts at second. I think Baker loses his value of super sub, unless we get rid of Blanco instead of Baker?
well, here's what I posted above about a bench with Castro on the team
Hill, Nady, Fuld, Baker, Tracy/Fontenot/Millar/Hoff
If Castro is the starter at short, Theriot is his backup. Blanco probably doesn’t make the team, and the last bench spot is a contest.
Blanco's not long for this team
that’s clear from the talk that Castro might break camp with the Cubs.
And Baker’s utility is lessened if Tracy makes the team.
The problem with trading Baker is that Ty Wigginton is already on the trading block; the problem with trading Fontenot is that Felipe Lopez is a free agent. We’ll see what’s possible.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
I don't see any of that happening.
And I think the Cubs would be making a big mistake having Castro break camp as the starting SS, no matter how well he does in spring training.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'm with you on Castro should wait
I just don’t think it will happen – he might not break camp, but I expect him up and losing rookie status this season.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
Regardless of what I've said above
I also think that Castro should start in AA this year. If he tears it up and it looks like we would be a better ball club with him, by all means – otherwise I’d like to see him as a September call up and our starting SS in 2011.
I agree with you.
That’s the proper course. I hope the Cubs stay on it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agreed as well.
Let’s hope Hendry/Lou lean toward the “realistic” – no matter how good Starling looks in ST.
The minor league SS
I would like to see make the squad if Fonty goes away is Barney. I know, he hits righty, but if he hits well in AZ, I’d like our defense with Barney as an option. Until we trade him to Pittsburgh with others for Zack Duke.
I am familiar with Barney, but not as familiar as some of our other prospects
Am I wrong that he is pretty suspect defensively??
Actually, his glove is good.
His bat is still a work in progress. In other words, if it’ gets ‘time to start the arby clock on someone’, Barney is better and youger than some really bad shortstops. (Ronnie Cedeno, being one.)
I hear his clubhouse chemistry is unmatched
And you know you really just cant teach size….
I just
hope Lilly can be ready by May 1. Who knows how he will rebound after this surgery. If he struggles that means Gorzo, Shark and Silva need to pitch well, not just get by.
Let Castro pitch.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
by Ryno Runner on Feb 10, 2010 10:17 PM CST up reply actions
no Lee is ahead of him
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Real question: Baker vs. Fontenot
Perhaps, the real question is Baker vs.Fontenot.
Fontenot’s career slash line is 266/339/761
Baker’s is a fairly similar: 270/326/782
Career PAs are similar (968 to 841 respectively).
In favor of Fontenot:
1. lefthanded bat, providing a better complement to Theriot.
2. Superior 2B defense.
3. Potential for a bounce back season.
In favor of Baker:
1. more natural 3B backup (whatever that means)
2. better recent numbers
3. Moderately cheaper.
In the not too distant future, carrying two 2B, neither of whom can back up SS will become a luxury the Cubs can’t afford. When that day comes, it will be interesting to see which of these guys sticks around.
Eamus Ursuli!
Remember that Baker can play 3B, too, as a backup.
And 1B. And if you believe some people here, RF, LF, security, vending, and cleaning up the ballpark after the game.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
True
That is actually my first point in favor of Baker.
That said, I don’t see any reason that Fontenot can’t play some 3B, his 3B defense was fine last year. Even if we accept the somewhat dubious theory that his offense suffered as he learned a new position, that should become less of a factor as he plays the position going forward
Eamus Ursuli!
c'mon, Al
Baker has major- and minor-league experience in the outfield. It’s not like viewing him as a backup equates to putting Soriano at catcher or Soto in CF.
Baker has minimal major-league OF experience...
.. and his minor league experience consists of one season (2006). I just don’t see the connection that makes him an OF candidate, just because he can play 2B and 3B, like Mark DeRosa did.
The Cubs have plenty of real outfielders in camp. They need to have Baker get reps at 2B, because he’s going to be the starter there.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I agree that Baker needs reps at second
But it’s not crazy or even a leap to say Baker COULD play some outfield. He’s done it before. I don’t think anyone is saying Baker could or should play the outfield because “he can play 2B and 3B, like Mark DeRosa did.”
Fontenot can play 2B and 3B. No one’s suggesting that HE play the outfield.
What's the difference between playing the OF
in the minor leagues and playing the OF in the major leagues, (other than that the fields are of lower quality and harder to play in the minors)?
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
why would 'potential for a bounce back season'
be a point in his favor? That’s just spin for “had a bad, bad 2009.”
Bounce back season
I am not really predicting a bounce back season. Rather, I posted career numbers for both players. For Fontenot, his 2009 hurt his careers numbers significantly. In the case of Baker, his helped his career #s.
In either case, if 2009 presents a trajectory or whether we should expect a reversion to past performance is a real question.
Eamus Ursuli!
It would seem that baker would be more likely to win that battle
as he is more versatile defensively.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 10, 2010 5:31 PM CST up reply actions
Enough with management dithering on prospects...
Let’s give the kid a clear shot as a starter this spring and if he has the glove, keep him there in April even if he goes 0-30 like Sandberg in ‘82. Let’s not worry about rushing him – if he truly has the talent, a year at Iowa will be a waste for both Castro and the Cubs. As we know, most naturals can be big league stars at 20 – ask Ronnie.
We also win by moving Theriot to his natural position, where he either will have a Grudzielanek ’03-style year, or be part of a June deal in the Buckner/Eckersley tradition.
"C'mon Freeman, throw the ball somewhere!" Brickhouse, incensed, 5/15/58
"Welcome to Wrigley Field, Mr. Bah-oo-tah!" Brickhouse, rubbing it in, 7/6/60
If you were writing this comment a year from now, I'd agree with you.
But it’s too early.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Why worry about the minors at all then?
Put Lee at SS and Castro at 2nd. Brett Jackson can platoon in CF too. After all, Jackson is older than 20 which Castro will turn in Spring Training.
No dithering!
While I approve of your use of the word "dithering"...
…I’d reiterate that Starlin Castro is 19 years old.
Also, I should point out...
… that though Ron Santo was a major league regular at age 20, part of the reason for that was that the Cubs were awful and could afford to do that, and further, he wasn’t really a “star” until he was 23 (take a look at his 1962 season — pretty bad).
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I just looked at Santo's 1962 season again.
In a year when he played in all 162 games and had 679 PA — 15th in the NL — he scored 44 runs. FORTY-FOUR. He hit 17 HR that year. That means his teammates drove him in only 27 times.
Man, that ’62 Cubs team was terrible.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Al, have you already forgotten??
The 2010 Cubs are going to win 74 game at MOST. Why even bother holding him back – they may as well learn on the job as Santo did.
If he truly is only 19 then all opposed to bringing him up have a point...
There haven’t been many everyday players at 19 – Yount and Cavvy are the only two I can think of who played in normal years, and I’m sure there must have been a few during WWII. But if Castro has the skills and baseball maturity, let’s at least see him get a full shot at the job in ST.
Also, to ripete, everything in moderation. Jackson may be up soon enough, but one rookie starter at a time, please. Otherwise, Al’s vision of the ’62 Cubs with Hubbs, Brock, Santo, et al, may become something more than a grim memory.
By the way, wasn’t Hubbs a 20-year-old ROY?
"C'mon Freeman, throw the ball somewhere!" Brickhouse, incensed, 5/15/58
"Welcome to Wrigley Field, Mr. Bah-oo-tah!" Brickhouse, rubbing it in, 7/6/60
I don't think
that he isn’t going to get a shot in spring training, just that it’s going to be very hard to evaluate him in that time. A ST shot, and then a late call up will help the team decide if he’s ready to be the starter in 2011.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Feb 10, 2010 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
this is probably an accurate guess
Kinda reminds me of what happened with Kerry Wood.
Yes Hubbs was 20
He beat out Donn Clendenon. It wasn’t the strongest group. Hubbs also lead the NL in strikeouts and GIDP that year. A pretty good trivia question!
Seriously regardless of whether Castro can hit, I don’t think his defense is ready. People are commenting that his defense will be so much better than Theriot yet there were numerous reports that his defense was shaky last season. There is a reason he is mentioned as possibly needing to move. It isn’t because he is Gold Glove calibre. He still needs work and needs time in the minors.
I wonder if the Cubs
want to be extra careful not to rush Castro since he is such a young international player.
I do find it interesting Castro was sent to the Rookie Development Program in January (which is why he wasn’t at the convention).
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Feb 10, 2010 3:39 PM CST up reply actions
I agree he's getting past his prime
Better get him in while we still can!
"most naturals can be big league stars at 20"
Name for me please, the number of big league stars playing right now who were only 20 when they debuted in April.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Feb 22, 2010 1:53 PM CST up reply actions
Of course the keys to your challenge are "right now" and "in April,"
because I’m sure we’re all painfully aware of Miguel Cabrera’s contributions at age 20 that began at mid-season 2003. Offhand, I’d say that Justin Upton and Andruw Jones are current players who had decent full seasons at 20 on the way to breakout years at 21.
But if we can take a look at the accomplishments of 20-year-olds who played before college ball became a de facto farm system for MLB, it’s clear that 20-year-old “naturals” such as Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Kaline, F. Robby, B. Robby and our own Santo and Hubbs had the skills to compete at the highest level.
My point is, let’s not have another Pie fiasco. If Castro is the fielder everyone says he is, and if he can hit .250 while batting eighth, then we may be better off using him this year, while we can still expect decent production from Lee and Ramirez and, maybe, Dome and Soriano.
"C'mon Freeman, throw the ball somewhere!" Brickhouse, incensed, 5/15/58
"Welcome to Wrigley Field, Mr. Bah-oo-tah!" Brickhouse, rubbing it in, 7/6/60
Cubs talk of Castro
Could be because Theriot still has an arbitration hearing. Couldn’t the Cubs argue that they don’t even know if Theriot will be a starter?
Seems like the best route would be to keep Castro down until at least June to buy a year on him at the very least.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Feb 11, 2010 11:30 AM CST reply actions
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