Frank Thomas
I know there was a FanShot posted, but really thought this should be seperate.
How lucky was the city of Chicago during the 1990’s to have two of the best first baseman of that decade playing in Chicago at once.
We had Mark Grace, and we know what he did as a Cub, but on the South Side, there was Frank Thomas, The Big Hurt.
Frank was not only a beast to look at from a fans perspective, but he was just as intimidating to the opposing pitcher. He had an eye for the strike zone that reminds me of stories about Banks I have heard. If Thomas shook his head, there was little doubt that it was anything but a ball.
He may have been labeled a home run hitter by many, but do not get mistake him for one. He was a hitter first and foremost. He could go the other way to move a runner; he could drive the ball up the middle, and could coax a walk when needed. The proper label he deserved was a Professional Hitter.
He was a two time AL MVP and an argument could easily be made that he should have won a third.
I could give you a bunch of stats about what he accomplished with the bat, but I won’t do that. Others will happily include those I am sure in the comments to follow, but I wish to throw this one out Thomas is part of an elite group of four players (including Mel Ott, Babe Ruth and Ted Williams) to have at least a .300 batting average, 500 home runs, 1,500 RBI, 1,000 runs and 1,500 walks in a career.
In my honest opinion if he plays more games (63 hits in 60 games) in 1990 there is a good chance he
might have eclipsed Mark Grace (1754) for the most hits in the decade. Thomas was 11th with 1564
for the decade, just under 200 shy.
All this was accomplished without any link to steroids, and no one has pointed to him once.
On a side note, I was able to meet him once, when I was a late teen working downtown in retail. He was not only a class act, but all smiles. The opposite of so many stories I had heard before that day.
Best of luck to Frank Thomas in his post baseball career, and I hope in 2014 he is celebrating his induction into the HOF.
If you believe that a jersey number should be retired for players, then without a doubt #35 should be retired on the South Side and for good reason.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Beating a dead horse.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
i am sure he meant to use the Sarcasm font
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Al is complaing more about the ...
… Little Luis/Omar unretirement than any Sox fans I know.
My Dad & his brothers were HUGE fans of Little Luis (and Nellie Fox) and while they probably would wished it stayed retired, I doubt even they would have whined about it as much as Al has.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
I think numbers mean something really special to Al....
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
by cooliogirl47 on Feb 12, 2010 10:43 PM CST up reply actions
btw...I'm only assuming this after having read his book
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
by cooliogirl47 on Feb 12, 2010 10:57 PM CST up reply actions
You're correct.
Doesn’t matter what team it is. Retired numbers are, well, you know, retired. There’s a reason they do that, and that’s so the number isn’t worn again, to honor that player.
I’ll repeat what I said earlier. Doesn’t matter that Aparicio “approved” (and, according to one article I read, after hesitating). The question should never have been asked.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He should get into the HOF
even though he’s a White Stocking ;)
Scott Bora$ is satan.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Feb 12, 2010 6:24 PM CST reply actions
nice summary Tim
I always used to wish he was of our side…:)
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
Seriously...
… Thomas was a great player, and no doubt, a first-ballot HoFer. He’s the greatest player in White Sox history.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Some guy in a cornfield might disagree with you.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 12, 2010 6:44 PM CST up reply actions
Jackson
only played four full seasons for the White Sox. He played more games for the Indians than for the White Sox.
Believe it or not, Frank Thomas had a higher OPS+ in his time with the White Sox than Joe Jackson did, 161 to 159. And he had more than three times as many plate appearance in pale hoses.
Oh, and Thomas didn’t conspire to throw the World Series, either.
Thomas was the greatest White Sox of all time. It’s not even close. Luke Appling is probably second.
by Josh Timmers on Feb 12, 2010 9:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
+35
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
hehehe....good one
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
by cooliogirl47 on Feb 12, 2010 9:26 PM CST up reply actions
Mr. Yellon, I might argue about "Greatest" label
No question Thomas is a first ballot HOFer, any slamming by disgruntled Cubs fans is unwarranted. Conversely, I may beg to differ with you on your capricious statement that Frank is “the greatest player in White Sox history.” You may want to look at the stats of Eddie Collins (.333 lifetime ba, .399 obp, 744sb) and Luke Appling(.310 lifetime ba, .406 obp) before you make such a strong statement. In his era, offensively Thomas was the most significant White Sox player, and perhaps the greatest DH the American League has had to date. Defensively, Frank was adaquate at first, but a liability at times. Collins and Appling were premier players at their positions during their extended careers with the White Sox.
by cubssouvenirman on Feb 13, 2010 12:16 AM CST up reply actions
..and the sad part
was that Franks numbers, particularly his ba, deteriorated during his last several years with the White Sox when everyone was throwing at him and Manuel, Lamont, Bevington, and even Ozzie failed to defend him by throwing back. In conjunction, the umps really squeezed the strike zone on him during those years. In his prime, Thomas was an offensive machine.
by cubssouvenirman on Feb 13, 2010 12:26 AM CST up reply actions
Eddie Collins...
… was a great player, no doubt about it. But he played only half his career with the White Sox, and had his best seasons with the Philadelphia A’s.
Thomas is the greatest player in White Sox history. Appling is second. See Josh’s post above for more.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
there great room for arguement
…not to be anal making an arguement, but to have fun as the devils advocate;
I still think that there is great room for disagreement between Collins and The Big Hurt for that all time “Greatest” label if we even need to apply one. Superfiscially, your arguement that “Cocky” Eddie Collins only played half of his career, 12 FULL seasons, in a White Sox uniform rings true. In contrast, Frank did spend 16 seasons in a White Sox uniform, but in four of those seasons appeared in only 60, 20, 74, and 34 games leaving him also with only 12 full seasons as a White Sox player.
Collins had 7405 official ab with the Sox while Thomas had 8602. By some standards 1200 MLB at bats is a career, but in this instance I really don’t feel that it is enough to signicicantly differentiate the two.
During 3 seasons of his White Sox career Collins, who obviously played field in the pre DH era, was also burdened with the responsibility of being field manager the team. Thomas appeared at first in 971, and DH in 960 games.
Collins had 744 sb, Frank has 32.
If you are going to try to apply the arguement that Collins appeared in 7 full seasons with the A’s, and only 12 with the White Sox then that arguement would dictate that Luis Aparicio (yes, the original unretired #11 !) was not the greatest shortstop in White Sox history because he only played 10 of his 18 years in a White Sox uniform which would not only be absurd as an arguement, but absurd also in its untruth with respect to Aparecio’s who was the best SS the Sox ever had.
by cubssouvenirman on Feb 13, 2010 12:43 PM CST up reply actions
Who cares about stolen bases?
As a member of the White Sox Collins stole 368 bases. b-r cites him being caught stealing 141 times in those years, but in some CS wasn’t even kept. In the years Collins played for the Sox and CS was kept, he stole 260 bases and was caught 141 times. Collins probably hurt the Sox trying to steal bases more than he helped them.
Thomas was certainly a better offensive player; if Collins was a good defensive 2B he might make up some ground on defensive value.
Frank Thomas was just flat-out imposing.
In his prime, he was probably one of the most feared hitters in the game.
Respect.
"Only a mediocre person is always at his best." ~W. Somerset Maugham
Frank Thomas was the man.
Should be a no doubt first ballot HOF-er. Maddux, Glavine and Thomas. That’s one hell of a class.
Well, I don't think
Thomas did steroids and certainly have no evidence that he did. But I will say that he’s a great example of the double standard in steroid accusations. Thomas is held as clean because “he was big at Auburn.” as if that proves anything. Other players are big and it’s proof they’re dirty.
The other double standard is that no one seems to care that a guy like Andy Pettite did PEDs. And I bet that there are just as many little guys on the juice as there are big sluggers. But no one cares about that.
by Josh Timmers on Feb 12, 2010 9:21 PM CST up reply actions
Pettite/Giambi even ARod
all seem to get the “ok, no biggie” treatment.
On Chicago Tribune Live today, Kap asked who the greatest hitter was, and said Sosa was not included due to steroid speculation, but i disagreed with him for one reason…look at the list that was offered
Frank Thomas
Ken Griffey Jr
Barry Bonds
Alex Rodriguez
Manny Ramirez
now my first reaction was no Sosa strictly to ensure Frank won the fan vote on todays show, based on his retirement, fine, but if you say Sosa cannot be on the list due to speculated steroid usage, then how do you list two who failed steroid tests (Marry/ARod), one admitted (ARod) and Bonds who everyone under the sun not only speculates, but agrees is dirty.
Now I am not saying Sosa was better than Frank, dont misunderstand that, but be fair Kaplan, to exclude Sosa based on possible steroid use and then list those three is ignorant
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Yeah that's pretty dumb.
There is no way that Manny, A-Rod and Bonds should be on this list if Sosa is excluded for steroids.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
by Ryno Runner on Feb 13, 2010 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
Kaplan
sucks. He doesn’t like Sammy and takes any chance he can to bash him. Including A-Rod, Manny, and Bonds who all did steroids and automatically excluding Sosa for the same reason is ridiculous. That being said, those guys were all better hitters than Sosa.
better hitters or not was not my point
my point was how dumb it was how Kap did that. Had he just left Sammy off the list and never made that point, it would have been fine IMHO
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Thanks for making my point
Many players are being branded based on circumstantial evidence while others are given a pass. Big Franks was always big so he must be innocent.
I'll start a counter rumor
He was the only active player willing to be interviewed for the Mitchell Report.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on Feb 12, 2010 10:03 PM CST up reply actions
A lone voice too...
… crying, begging for steroid testing.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
Didnt Schilling also?
not sure, but I thought he did
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Not just in front of Congress.
Frank was an early, vocal proponent of steroid testing. I think the pervasiveness of steroids was one thing that gave him an angry edge.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
In part, I'm sure, because his juiced competitors made him seem almost pedestrian.
Thomas’ OPS+ numbers are mind-boggling. It’s fair to say that they would have been substantially MORE mind-boggling if every Bret Boone and Steve Finley in the league hadn’t been hitting 35-45 HR each year for a decade.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
DrC
just curious to your reaction to how this same write up is being perceived on SSS
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Lately...
… I’ve found myself agreeing with you (after I’d said I’d be ignoring you). And I’ve enjoyed your words here at BCB about Frank.
I haven’t seen that write-up yet. I just got in, after being out all day. I’ll get there later.
I’ve written about Frank here, WSI and the old Sox newsgroup. Can’t be everywhere!
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
i found the few reply sad
they used it as a means to rip the Cubs instead of celebrate Frank.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Graceful...
… except for the Mark Grace reference. That probably didn’t engender much love at SSS.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
was it wrong to mention him as i did?
I see no harm. Both were good first baseman, and I said that I believe Frank could have taken over the hits leader for the decade had he played more in 1990.
oh well, so be it. they went rude and childish over that, when i was being respectful to Frank IMHO
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Ughhhhhhh....;...
Honestly, I try to stay out of the Cubs/White Sox arguments. Seriously, I do. Most of my kid life, I had a hate/don’t care relationship with the South Siders. 2005 came and I rooted for them that post season and I had fun watching it . I also do like Becham and Peavy, but my goodness, why is it that so many White Sox fans act like they have a bug up their butt in anything that has to do with the Cubs?
You go to a WhiteSoxInteractive.com and there is the one forum where half of the posts are talking about Cub related things, with the majority of those postings being about how the Cubs, the fans and the stadium suck. You go to NorthsideBaseball.com, and you hardly ever see any topic about the White Sox – almost never. Then, the one time that a Cub fan may make a post here or somehwere, those Sox fans from WSI or elsewhere will chime “look! look! look! and who said Cub fans don’t care about the White Sox?”
I don’t hate the Sox. But too many of their fans are so defensive that the Cubs are more popular. Who cares?? Popularity doesn’t win World Series. They have their ring. Enjoy it!
“The opposite of love is indifference.”
Indifference shown by...
… lurking at WSI.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
Silly, silly...
I’ve never claimed to be indifferent to the Cubbies.
So you honestly read that person’s post and think, “yeah, I agree”?
I love it when Cubbie fans boast about being indifferent and never posting about the Sox then in the same breath talk admit regularly lurking at White Sox Interactive.
It’s silly to try to keep up this “we Cubbie fans don’t talk about the Sox…” when just this week there when Al started a discussion here about the Sox that had 166 posts.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
You're really not going to start this all over again, are you?
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
I was going to let it slide in the original post, but you mention it here again...
I believe Frank could have taken over the hits leader for the decade had he played more in 1990.
Using the numbers you included in your OP, that means Frank was 190 short. And that’s including the 63 he got in 1990. So in order to overtake Grace, Frank would have had to have gotten 254 hits in 1990. Shades of George Sisler, that’s a lot of hits…
Yes, playing more in 1990 undoubtedly would have gotten the Big Hurt closer to the Big Easy, but highly doubtful he passes him.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
i knew someone would say this
had he been closer in 1999, im sure they would have found a way for a few more ABs.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I dunno...
“Most hits in a decade” doesn’t strike me as one of those stats folks keep track of as it’s happening. Had Frank been closer in 1999, I don’t think there would have been one of those countdown banners like they had for Ripken’s streak or Bonds’ HRs.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Could not have said it better...
Frank Thomas’ career OPS was .974. Mark Grace’s career HIGH OPS was .911; his career OPS was .825. The comparison is ridiculous – it would be like comparing Grace to Nefi Perez.
Here: "How lucky was the city of Chicago during the 1980’s to have two of the best middle infielders of that decade playing in Chicago at once. We had Ozzie Guillen, and we know what he did on the Sox, but on the North Side, there was Ryne Sandberg, Ryno."
Yeah, that would probably just slide right by on BCB.
- by The Actual El Guapo on Feb 13, 2010 12:35 AM
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
unlike those on SSS
I would not have made this out to be a bad thing. i might have said comparing a 2B and a SS is goofy, but i would not have made a reply like this
thanks, that was a nice gesture….. but seriously, don’t ever compare mark grace to frank thomas. mark grace wouldn’t make a pimple on frank’s ass.
by mick10
or
Thanks for a classy write up- full and total props to you. Pity you root for such a wretched team in an derelict stadium in a hipster-riddled crap neighborhood… good luck with that.
Drunk Tank Mace
by DrEmilioLizardo
which you so conveniently skipped over DrC
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
right on
The first post is right on, except for perhaps the crude reference.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
Don't you hate it when...
… posters respond with angry, crude remarks and insults?
1. “how about you go (fornicate) yourself.”
2. “you can now (fornicate) off.”
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
when people go back and forth provoking
its not right but more understandable, but the first reply? Come on DrC, even you cannot justify that.
and no the first post was not right on, Grace was not horrible, which the first post basically is stating.
Grace also earned his WS Ring with Arizona, Thomas got his playing less than 1/4 of the season, and was not good in 2005.
Grace did not have the same power, no doubt, but he had a better glove, and his bat (minus the power difference) was far from bad.
Grace
Games 2245
Hits 2445
Doubles 511
Runs Scored 1179
Walks 1075
Strike Outs 642
Batting Average 301
OBP 383
Thomas
Games 2322
Hits 2468
Doubles 495
Runs Scored 1494
Walks 1667
Strike Outs 1397
Batting Average 301
OBP 419
I am not saying Grace = Thomas, but I am saying Grace is better than the first comment says, and that you are wrong saying that it is correct.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
typo
Grace BA 303 Thomas 301
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Grace was a very good baseball player.
Grace was nowhere near Thomas’ level. There’s not really much of a connection between watching Thomas become an all-time great in the 90s and watching Grace be a solid above-average player.
i have not said they are equal
I have said Grace is better than the reaction of mentioning his name
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
take it from me
both of those posters are homos.
"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"
by Where Triples Go to Die on Feb 13, 2010 6:25 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Um...
… maybe you post like this at SSS. Here, this kind of comment is unacceptable.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
usually it comes accompanied
with dogs humping and then vomitting
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
apiens
"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"
by Where Triples Go to Die on Feb 14, 2010 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
it means "I'm cranky and need to be changed"
in SSSpeak
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Great.
Hey, you guys are always welcome here. But it appears we have different rules of decorum than you have at SSS. If you want to participate in the discussion here, keep it clean, please.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
And please...
… while at BCB play by the BCB rules.
Not acceptable:
- Ugly smears & stereotypes of the Cubbies and Cubbie fans.
Perfectly acceptable:
- Ugly smears & stereotypes of the Sox and Sox fans.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
if it bothers you so much
why do you come here?
by jesus christos on Feb 15, 2010 7:11 PM CST up reply actions
easy there
… while at BCB play by the BCB rules.
Not acceptable:
Ugly smears & stereotypes of the Cubbies and Cubbie fans. except some Cubbie fans
Perfectly acceptable:
Ugly smears & stereotypes of the Sox and Sox fans if they post double standards or misquote you
Suggested
Ugly smears & stereotypes of the Brewers and the Brewers Fans
SARCASM
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
uh-oh, here we go ;)
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
by cooliogirl47 on Feb 15, 2010 7:17 PM CST up reply actions
LMAO
DrC can read SARCASM
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
One more observation
Speaking of WSI, I do browse there. There is one category of posts called “What’s The Score?” The moderator has written that they do not endorse “Cubsessed” posts where the Cubs are bashed for the sake of it. They would rather have fans talk about the Cubs like they do the rest of the league. Ok, that makes sense. But, if that was the case, why the hell does the “What’s the Score” graphics have a sign that says “Welcome to Loserville – Home of the Urinal?” When you see something like that, just what kind of talk do you think that is going to encourage?
What is your White Sox Interactive user name?
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
Great write up. It really does justice to a great player. He was always one of my favorites growing up. I did take a look at his numbers compared to other 1st basemen and if we group him in with those guys he comes out at least the fifth or sixth best first basemen of all time. He is better than McCovey and he got in on the first ballot. I think the writers will give him a boost for not using steroids in this era. He is boarderline first ballot to me, but I would surely give it to him on the second ballot. I have not looked at a lot of the more advanced stats, but I could be convinced to group him in as a first ballot guy.
When I think of Frank Thomas
I think of a low outside pitch being driven into the right-centerfield gap. He was a pure hitter.
"You’re playing a baseball game. You’re not playing Tiddlywinks. There is competition, for God’s sake."— Lou Piniella
by PacificCub on Feb 13, 2010 11:37 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Pure designated hitter
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 13, 2010 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
Did you know
he played tight end at Auburn. Tight end. How enormous must their O-Line men have been? On another note, I believe he is a first ballot Hall of Famer but would not be surprised if it is close. I think steroids has cast a shadow over anyone who has the appearance of a big muscular slugger. That said I think there might be some voters that don’t vote for him just because they can’t be sure. Just like Rick Tellander stated a few years back when he didn’t vote for Andre Dawson. This is also why I feel Maddux will get an extremely high vote total. In addition to his fantastic career, he certainly did not not have the body of someone who spent a great deal of time in the weight room. No offense Mad Dog.
Jessica countdown......5.....4....3....
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
by Ryno Runner on Feb 13, 2010 12:31 PM CST up reply actions
another reason it will be close
is he was effectively a DH and there seems to be quite a bias against DHs (see Edgar Martinez). Even when Big Frank played 1B, he was effectively a DH.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 13, 2010 12:40 PM CST up reply actions
not really true
Thomas appeared at first in 971, and DH in 960 games in a White Sox uniform.
by cubssouvenirman on Feb 13, 2010 1:00 PM CST up reply actions
DH or not Thomas is a first ballot HOF IMHO
and I am against the DH, but I think in some ways it is harder to produce as a DH when you are not involved in about 90% of the game.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I doubt he is a 1st ballot inductee
for the reasons I have stated
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 13, 2010 2:18 PM CST up reply actions
Irrelevant as he was a bad 1B
the guy was a very good hitter, not a very good ballplayer
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 13, 2010 2:17 PM CST up reply actions
Thomas was a damn good ballplayer.
A bad defender, a slow runner, and a sublime hitter. His hitting was easily good enough to overshadow the things he did poorly.
Doing one thing extremely well does not seem to be enough for most HOF voters,
otherwise Edgar Martinez and a few more closers would be in the Hall.
I will be shocked if Thomas is a 1st ballot inductee.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 15, 2010 9:35 AM CST up reply actions
Frank Thomas was a far better player than Edgar Martinez.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Disagree...
…as a first baseman or DH, what do you want him to do well, hit or field?
On top of this, hitting (IMO) is the most difficult thing to do well in baseball and the comprehensive offensive numbers Thomas put up, are certainly of top shelf caliber and very rare.
Thomas has had a 1st ballot HOF career by any standard in my mind.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Feb 15, 2010 11:04 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Please give some proof that Edgar Martinez and Frank Thomas are comparable hitters.
Frank Thomas for the first 8 seasons of his career was Albert Pujols, aka the greatest right-handed hitter of all time
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 16, 2010 11:55 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Why should I since I didn't make that claim?
That EMartinez was a DH will hurt his chances of making it into the HOF, just as it will FThomas. Many voters do not like one-dimensional players.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 17, 2010 4:18 PM CST up reply actions
As Ozzie Montana said, though...
… Thomas was a far better hitter than Edgar Martinez.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Irrelevant since it is not an either or question
Thomas’s bid for the HOF raises some interesting questions. He was a very one-dimensional ballplayer, all hit nothing else, and there appears to be a bias among Hall voters against one-dimensional players. Working in his favor, however, may be that he was a clean (read no steroids that we know of) in an era when it seems as if most of the other big bangers were juiced up. Maybe the Hall voters reward him for that? He may actually benefit from the steroid scandal.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 18, 2010 7:58 AM CST up reply actions
See Paul Molitor
He played a significant portion of his career at DH and he was a first ballot Hall of Famer. What it proves is that if you have one of the magic numbers (3,000 hits or 500 home runs), they’ll overlook how you got them unless you did steroids. Edgar Martinez belongs, but because the BBWAA can’t treat everyone with the same logic, he has to sit out until they pull their heads out of their collective butts. Alan Trammell is a great case in point and he’s still waiting for that moment even though they drooled at the idea of inducting Ozzie Smith on the first ballot.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Edgar Martinez belongs?
Really? I’d say he’s borderline. He has none of the magic numbers, and by my count he had only seven HoF quality seasons. He was a very good player for a long time. Not HoF worthy, no matter what position he played (or didn’t).
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
When you consider...
…he accumulated over 300 win shares by basically playing his career as a DH, that’s pretty awesome because that’s not an easy thing to do. It took two seasons under Lou Piniella’s management (see a pattern here) before Piniella figured out the guy should have been a DH because the guy couldn’t keep from getting injured while playing on the field. It would be worth faulting Piniella if Martinez wasn’t a full time DH in 1995, played the field and missed another season due to injury. I find other reasons to criticize Piniella and the lack of numbers for Martinez isn’t one of them.
Edgar Martinez, Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Stan Musial, Rogers Hornsby, Lou Gehrig, Manny Ramirez, and Todd Helton are the only players with 300 home runs, 500 doubles, a career batting average higher than .300, a career on-base percentage higher than .400 and a career slugging percentage higher than .500. That’s very exclusive company. I wasn’t so delusional that Martinez would go first ballot, but if he’s not in before Frank Thomas, then the bias is clear.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
That's a cherry-picked list...
… not necessarily Hall-worthy. You list five categories. Mark Grace qualifies for two of them (500 doubles, .300+ career BA), didn’t miss a third by much (career OBA .383). Grace also had more hits than Martinez. Does that make Grace Hall-worthy?
Of course it doesn’t, and Martinez is not a Hall of Famer, either. He was a very good hitter for a long time, but had only seven peak seasons. Not enough in my book. I would not vote for him.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Grace and Martinez are in completely different classes
I could take any list and call it cherry picking, which doesn’t prove anything. Comparing Grace to Martinez isn’t exactly the best comparison. Will Clark is a more valid comparison and I think that guy seriously got the shaft thanks to the steroid era. Martinez fits in the same category, though it’s clear he’s getting a bit of extra boost for being a great DH while Clark had guys like Jeff Bagwell, Mark McGwire and Rafael Palmeiro as competition.
Martinez averaged a 163 OPS+ from 1995-2001. In Mark Grace’s best years, he never even sniffed anything close to that. Martinez had 305 win shares despite having a career mostly played as a DH. Grace only had 294 and he actually played the field. In terms of WAR, there’s absolutely no comparison. Grace had a 47.0 WAR while Martinez was worth 67.2 WAR.
I’m not going to argue that Frank Thomas doesn’t belong, but I don’t see the knock against Martinez other than the fact that he DH’ed.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
OK, you cherry-picked Martinez's seven best seasons.
From 1991-1997, Thomas had a 182 OPS+. And he had other Hall-worthy seasons beyond those. Martinez really didn’t.
He had a great peak. The rest of his career is pedestrian, and apart from the 500+ doubles, doesn’t have a high position in any of the counting stat categories.
I don’t think Win Shares is a good measure of Hall worthiness. But if you want to go that route, Thomas had 383 (through 2006), far more than Martinez.
Again, to me, Edgar Martinez was a very good player for a long time, not Hall-worthy. He’s Jim Edmonds, essentially. Or Bernie Williams.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Feb 15, 2010 3:31 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
rec'd
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
rec'd
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Bernie Williams? Jim Edmonds?
Ricky Henderson had far more win shares than Frank Thomas, but that doesn’t make Frank Thomas any less worthy than Rickey Henderson. I don’t even get why you’d compare Martinez to Edmonds or B. Williams. Are you serious? Edgar Martinez was better than them both. I’d take Edgar Martinez in the Hall of Fame before Ron Santo and I can say that with a straight face.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I'm going to respectfully disagree.
Santo’s numbers were put up in a lower-offense era. He played an outstanding third base. Over an eight-year period (1963-70) he averaged 105 RBI and had an .877 OPS in an era when no one hit the way they did today.
That’s really an insult to Santo.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
even Joe Morgan has said he belongs in the HOF
sure it was on the DVD This Old Cub, but for him to say that EVER says something about Santo.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
And lest we forget....
Mr. Sandbergs HOF induction speach…. “And by the way, for what it’s worth, Ron Santo just gained one more vote from the veteran’s committee.”
~Ronald Reagan has held the two most demeaning jobs in the country; President of the United States and radio broadcaster for the Chicago Cubs~ George F. Will
by unretrofied93 on Feb 15, 2010 5:36 PM CST up reply actions
I didn't say Santo didn't belong
But I’m less inclined to support his candidacy than I was a year ago. I don’t scratch my head at Ron Santo’s exclusion, but I do for Edgar Martinez.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
There was a time...
… however brief, where you could have made a case for Santo as the best player in the National League. Martinez wasn’t even close to being that, at any point.
I’m not penalizing him for being a DH. He was actually a decent 3B before injuries forced him to DH. But Santo’s defense, IMO, gives him far more HoF cred.
Martinez, IMO, is not a Hall of Famer. We’ll see how much support he gets.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He had a relativly decent showing last year.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
It's also why some guys have more win shares than Martinez
Martinez is actually penalized by the system itself because he does not have the defensive win shares that other players have. Martinez started off with 36.2% of the vote, more than Tim Raines or Fred McGriff.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I've never been big on Edgar Martinez for HOF
But you’ve convinced me. Besides, if Mazeroski can make it, maybe they should just let everyone in.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Feb 15, 2010 10:29 PM CST up reply actions
Even though he was a Southy
I look at him as a 1st ballet HOF, when we weren’t televised, i’d usually check out the Sox if they were on WGN to check out the Big Hurt make pitchers look foolish, especially coming out of a decade where everyone who put up numbers similar to his are in the center of the steroid accusations.
Great hitter...
…and clearly (IMO) a first ballot HOF guy.
Not too often you see the blend of great power and great average, and Thomas was one of a handful that did just that.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
If Thomas isn't a first ballot HOF guy
No one is. For a decade he was consistently listed in elite company with the 4 or 5 all-time greats. A pure hitter and slugger with strike zone mastery….it doesn’t get much better.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Feb 15, 2010 10:26 PM CST reply actions
Excellent article by KC writer, Joe Posanski
One helluva an article – clearly lays out the facts for Frank Thomas as a clear Hall Of Famer AND attacks the steroid accusations (see "Jerry Morales" ’I’m not saying, I’m just saying…’ comments).
FRANK THOMAS’ AMAZING CAREER:
For his career, Thomas has a .300 batting average and 500 home runs. That right there should make him an absolute Hall of Fame lock. Nine players in baseball have that combination — and only seven of them pulled it off with no steroid stain on their careers (A-Rod and MannyBManny are the other two). The seven are:
1. Hank Aaron
2. Babe Ruth
3. Willie Mays
4. Jimmie Foxx
5. Ted Williams
6. Mel Ott
7. Frank Thomas
Not bad, eh? …
Seasons with 100 runs, 100 RBIs, 100 walks and .300 average:
1. Babe Ruth, 12
2. Lou Gehrig, 10
3. Frank Thomas, 8
(tied) Barry Bonds, 8
(tied) Ted Williams, 8
6. Jimmie Foxx, 6
7. Mel Ott, 5
Thomas was not a good fielder, of course — he actually spent more games at DH than first base — and he was famously slow on the bases in the later years of his career. But he’s one of the greatest hitters in baseball history, and an absolute Hall of Fame slam dunk.
ON THE STEROIDS SMEARS:
Frank Thomas is probably the most prominent non-steroid user in baseball history. Of course, we can’t know the secret lives of bees or people. But every indication is that Frank Thomas avoided steroids. He was so public about his disgust over performance enhancing drugs. He advocated steroid testing fifteen years ago. He came forward to talk to the Mitchell Report people. If he used steroids, it was one hell of an act.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009

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