Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: NFL Players Ready To Welcome Gay Teammate

Frank Thomas


I know there was a FanShot posted, but really thought this should be seperate.

Star-divide

Frank Thomas 

 

How lucky was the city of Chicago during the 1990’s to have two of the best first baseman of that decade playing in Chicago at once. 

 

We had Mark Grace, and we know what he did as a Cub, but on the South Side, there was Frank Thomas, The Big Hurt.

 

Frank was not only a beast to look at from a fans perspective, but he was just as intimidating to the opposing pitcher.  He had an eye for the strike zone that reminds me of stories about Banks I have heard.  If Thomas shook his head, there was little doubt that it was anything but a ball. 

 

He may have been labeled a home run hitter by many, but do not get mistake him for one.  He was a hitter first and foremost.  He could go the other way to move a runner; he could drive the ball up the middle, and could coax a walk when needed.  The proper label he deserved was a Professional Hitter.

 

He was a two time AL MVP and an argument could easily be made that he should have won a third.

 

I could give you a bunch of stats about what he accomplished with the bat, but I won’t do that.  Others will happily include those I am sure in the comments to follow, but I wish to throw this one out Thomas is part of an elite group of four players (including Mel Ott, Babe Ruth and Ted Williams) to have at least a .300 batting average, 500 home runs, 1,500 RBI, 1,000 runs and 1,500 walks in a career. 

 

In my honest opinion if he plays more games (63 hits in 60 games) in 1990 there is a good chance he

might have eclipsed Mark Grace (1754) for the most hits in the decade.  Thomas was 11th with 1564

for the decade, just under 200 shy. 

 

All this was accomplished without any link to steroids, and no one has pointed to him once. 

 

On a side note, I was able to meet him once, when I was a late teen working downtown in retail.  He was not only a class act, but all smiles. The opposite of so many stories I had heard before that day.

 

Best of luck to Frank Thomas in his post baseball career, and I hope in 2014 he is celebrating his induction into the HOF.

 

If you believe that a jersey number should be retired for players, then without a doubt #35 should be retired on the South Side and for good reason.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

Comment 115 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

But when will they be unretiring #35?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 12, 2010 6:17 PM CST reply actions  

Beating a dead horse.

"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009

by DrCrawdad on Feb 12, 2010 10:35 PM CST up reply actions  

i am sure he meant to use the Sarcasm font

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 12, 2010 10:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Al is complaing more about the ...

… Little Luis/Omar unretirement than any Sox fans I know.

My Dad & his brothers were HUGE fans of Little Luis (and Nellie Fox) and while they probably would wished it stayed retired, I doubt even they would have whined about it as much as Al has.

"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009

by DrCrawdad on Feb 12, 2010 10:41 PM CST up reply actions  

I think numbers mean something really special to Al....

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 12, 2010 10:43 PM CST up reply actions  

btw...I'm only assuming this after having read his book

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 12, 2010 10:57 PM CST up reply actions  

You're correct.

Doesn’t matter what team it is. Retired numbers are, well, you know, retired. There’s a reason they do that, and that’s so the number isn’t worn again, to honor that player.

I’ll repeat what I said earlier. Doesn’t matter that Aparicio “approved” (and, according to one article I read, after hesitating). The question should never have been asked.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 13, 2010 7:52 AM CST up reply actions  

He should get into the HOF

even though he’s a White Stocking ;)

Scott Bora$ is satan.

by Canadian Cubs Fan on Feb 12, 2010 6:24 PM CST reply actions  

nice summary Tim

I always used to wish he was of our side…:)

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 12, 2010 6:26 PM CST reply actions  

Seriously...

… Thomas was a great player, and no doubt, a first-ballot HoFer. He’s the greatest player in White Sox history.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 12, 2010 6:37 PM CST reply actions  

Jackson

only played four full seasons for the White Sox. He played more games for the Indians than for the White Sox.

Believe it or not, Frank Thomas had a higher OPS+ in his time with the White Sox than Joe Jackson did, 161 to 159. And he had more than three times as many plate appearance in pale hoses.

Oh, and Thomas didn’t conspire to throw the World Series, either.

Thomas was the greatest White Sox of all time. It’s not even close. Luke Appling is probably second.

by Josh Timmers on Feb 12, 2010 9:15 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

+35

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 12, 2010 9:22 PM CST up reply actions  

hehehe....good one

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 12, 2010 9:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Mr. Yellon, I might argue about "Greatest" label

No question Thomas is a first ballot HOFer, any slamming by disgruntled Cubs fans is unwarranted. Conversely, I may beg to differ with you on your capricious statement that Frank is “the greatest player in White Sox history.” You may want to look at the stats of Eddie Collins (.333 lifetime ba, .399 obp, 744sb) and Luke Appling(.310 lifetime ba, .406 obp) before you make such a strong statement. In his era, offensively Thomas was the most significant White Sox player, and perhaps the greatest DH the American League has had to date. Defensively, Frank was adaquate at first, but a liability at times. Collins and Appling were premier players at their positions during their extended careers with the White Sox.

by cubssouvenirman on Feb 13, 2010 12:16 AM CST up reply actions  

..and the sad part

was that Franks numbers, particularly his ba, deteriorated during his last several years with the White Sox when everyone was throwing at him and Manuel, Lamont, Bevington, and even Ozzie failed to defend him by throwing back. In conjunction, the umps really squeezed the strike zone on him during those years. In his prime, Thomas was an offensive machine.

by cubssouvenirman on Feb 13, 2010 12:26 AM CST up reply actions  

Eddie Collins...

… was a great player, no doubt about it. But he played only half his career with the White Sox, and had his best seasons with the Philadelphia A’s.

Thomas is the greatest player in White Sox history. Appling is second. See Josh’s post above for more.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 13, 2010 7:54 AM CST up reply actions  

there great room for arguement

…not to be anal making an arguement, but to have fun as the devils advocate;
                   I still think that there is great room for disagreement between Collins and The Big Hurt for that all time “Greatest” label if we even need to apply one. Superfiscially, your arguement that “Cocky” Eddie Collins only played half of his career, 12 FULL seasons, in a White Sox uniform rings true. In contrast, Frank did spend 16 seasons in a White Sox uniform, but in four of those seasons appeared in only 60, 20, 74, and 34 games leaving him also with only 12 full seasons as a White Sox player.
        Collins had 7405 official ab with the Sox while Thomas had 8602. By some standards 1200 MLB at bats is a career, but in this instance I really don’t feel that it is enough to signicicantly differentiate the two.
       During 3 seasons of his White Sox career Collins, who obviously played field in the pre DH era, was also burdened with the responsibility of being field manager the team. Thomas appeared at first in 971, and DH in 960 games.
      Collins had 744 sb, Frank has 32.
      If you are going to try to apply the arguement that Collins appeared in 7 full seasons with the A’s, and only 12 with the White Sox then that arguement would dictate that Luis Aparicio (yes, the original unretired #11 !) was not the greatest shortstop in White Sox history because he only played 10 of his 18 years in a White Sox uniform which would not only be absurd as an arguement, but absurd also in its untruth with respect to Aparecio’s who was the best SS the Sox ever had.

by cubssouvenirman on Feb 13, 2010 12:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Who cares about stolen bases?

As a member of the White Sox Collins stole 368 bases. b-r cites him being caught stealing 141 times in those years, but in some CS wasn’t even kept. In the years Collins played for the Sox and CS was kept, he stole 260 bases and was caught 141 times. Collins probably hurt the Sox trying to steal bases more than he helped them.

Thomas was certainly a better offensive player; if Collins was a good defensive 2B he might make up some ground on defensive value.

by aldimond on Feb 14, 2010 4:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Frank Thomas was just flat-out imposing.

In his prime, he was probably one of the most feared hitters in the game.

Respect.

"Only a mediocre person is always at his best." ~W. Somerset Maugham

by Goodie1969 on Feb 12, 2010 7:05 PM CST reply actions  

Frank Thomas was the man.

Should be a no doubt first ballot HOF-er. Maddux, Glavine and Thomas. That’s one hell of a class.

by kanderber on Feb 12, 2010 7:20 PM CST reply actions  

OK I'll Start a Rumor

Frank Played football at Auburn, a bastion of steroid use.

by Chodes on Feb 12, 2010 7:37 PM CST reply actions  

Well, I don't think

Thomas did steroids and certainly have no evidence that he did. But I will say that he’s a great example of the double standard in steroid accusations. Thomas is held as clean because “he was big at Auburn.” as if that proves anything. Other players are big and it’s proof they’re dirty.

The other double standard is that no one seems to care that a guy like Andy Pettite did PEDs. And I bet that there are just as many little guys on the juice as there are big sluggers. But no one cares about that.

by Josh Timmers on Feb 12, 2010 9:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Pettite/Giambi even ARod

all seem to get the “ok, no biggie” treatment.

On Chicago Tribune Live today, Kap asked who the greatest hitter was, and said Sosa was not included due to steroid speculation, but i disagreed with him for one reason…look at the list that was offered

Frank Thomas
Ken Griffey Jr
Barry Bonds
Alex Rodriguez
Manny Ramirez

now my first reaction was no Sosa strictly to ensure Frank won the fan vote on todays show, based on his retirement, fine, but if you say Sosa cannot be on the list due to speculated steroid usage, then how do you list two who failed steroid tests (Marry/ARod), one admitted (ARod) and Bonds who everyone under the sun not only speculates, but agrees is dirty.

Now I am not saying Sosa was better than Frank, dont misunderstand that, but be fair Kaplan, to exclude Sosa based on possible steroid use and then list those three is ignorant

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 12, 2010 9:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah that's pretty dumb.

There is no way that Manny, A-Rod and Bonds should be on this list if Sosa is excluded for steroids.

Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.

by Ryno Runner on Feb 13, 2010 11:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Kaplan

sucks. He doesn’t like Sammy and takes any chance he can to bash him. Including A-Rod, Manny, and Bonds who all did steroids and automatically excluding Sosa for the same reason is ridiculous. That being said, those guys were all better hitters than Sosa.

by tripdenten on Feb 15, 2010 9:40 PM CST up reply actions  

better hitters or not was not my point

my point was how dumb it was how Kap did that. Had he just left Sammy off the list and never made that point, it would have been fine IMHO

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 15, 2010 9:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks for making my point

Many players are being branded based on circumstantial evidence while others are given a pass. Big Franks was always big so he must be innocent.

by Chodes on Feb 12, 2010 9:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Define "Played".

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 12, 2010 9:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I'll start a counter rumor

He was the only active player willing to be interviewed for the Mitchell Report.

[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."

by NobodySpecial on Feb 12, 2010 10:03 PM CST up reply actions  

A lone voice too...

… crying, begging for steroid testing.

"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009

by DrCrawdad on Feb 12, 2010 10:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Didnt Schilling also?

not sure, but I thought he did

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 12, 2010 10:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Not just in front of Congress.

Frank was an early, vocal proponent of steroid testing. I think the pervasiveness of steroids was one thing that gave him an angry edge.

"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009

by DrCrawdad on Feb 12, 2010 10:43 PM CST up reply actions  

In part, I'm sure, because his juiced competitors made him seem almost pedestrian.

Thomas’ OPS+ numbers are mind-boggling. It’s fair to say that they would have been substantially MORE mind-boggling if every Bret Boone and Steve Finley in the league hadn’t been hitting 35-45 HR each year for a decade.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 13, 2010 10:22 AM CST up reply actions  

Ha

I’ve never heard anyone connect steroid use to Auburn, and I live in Alabama where 70% of the state would love to have those rumors floating around. Nice try though. I’m sure some players at Auburn used steroids just like everywhere else.

by AUCub on Feb 13, 2010 11:31 AM CST up reply actions  

DrC

just curious to your reaction to how this same write up is being perceived on SSS

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 12, 2010 10:39 PM CST reply actions  

Lately...

… I’ve found myself agreeing with you (after I’d said I’d be ignoring you). And I’ve enjoyed your words here at BCB about Frank.

I haven’t seen that write-up yet. I just got in, after being out all day. I’ll get there later.

I’ve written about Frank here, WSI and the old Sox newsgroup. Can’t be everywhere!

"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009

by DrCrawdad on Feb 12, 2010 10:46 PM CST up reply actions  

i found the few reply sad

they used it as a means to rip the Cubs instead of celebrate Frank.

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 12, 2010 10:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Graceful...

… except for the Mark Grace reference. That probably didn’t engender much love at SSS.

"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009

by DrCrawdad on Feb 12, 2010 10:50 PM CST up reply actions  

was it wrong to mention him as i did?

I see no harm. Both were good first baseman, and I said that I believe Frank could have taken over the hits leader for the decade had he played more in 1990.

oh well, so be it. they went rude and childish over that, when i was being respectful to Frank IMHO

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 12, 2010 10:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Ughhhhhhh....;...

Honestly, I try to stay out of the Cubs/White Sox arguments. Seriously, I do. Most of my kid life, I had a hate/don’t care relationship with the South Siders. 2005 came and I rooted for them that post season and I had fun watching it . I also do like Becham and Peavy, but my goodness, why is it that so many White Sox fans act like they have a bug up their butt in anything that has to do with the Cubs?

You go to a WhiteSoxInteractive.com and there is the one forum where half of the posts are talking about Cub related things, with the majority of those postings being about how the Cubs, the fans and the stadium suck. You go to NorthsideBaseball.com, and you hardly ever see any topic about the White Sox – almost never. Then, the one time that a Cub fan may make a post here or somehwere, those Sox fans from WSI or elsewhere will chime “look! look! look! and who said Cub fans don’t care about the White Sox?”

I don’t hate the Sox. But too many of their fans are so defensive that the Cubs are more popular. Who cares?? Popularity doesn’t win World Series. They have their ring. Enjoy it!

“The opposite of love is indifference.”

by Contempt on Feb 13, 2010 12:50 AM CST up reply actions  

Indifference shown by...

… lurking at WSI.

"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009

by DrCrawdad on Feb 13, 2010 1:04 AM CST up reply actions  

Silly, silly...

I’ve never claimed to be indifferent to the Cubbies.

So you honestly read that person’s post and think, “yeah, I agree”?

I love it when Cubbie fans boast about being indifferent and never posting about the Sox then in the same breath talk admit regularly lurking at White Sox Interactive.

It’s silly to try to keep up this “we Cubbie fans don’t talk about the Sox…” when just this week there when Al started a discussion here about the Sox that had 166 posts.

"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009

by DrCrawdad on Feb 13, 2010 6:46 AM CST up reply actions  

I was going to let it slide in the original post, but you mention it here again...
I believe Frank could have taken over the hits leader for the decade had he played more in 1990.

Using the numbers you included in your OP, that means Frank was 190 short. And that’s including the 63 he got in 1990. So in order to overtake Grace, Frank would have had to have gotten 254 hits in 1990. Shades of George Sisler, that’s a lot of hits…

Yes, playing more in 1990 undoubtedly would have gotten the Big Hurt closer to the Big Easy, but highly doubtful he passes him.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 13, 2010 1:21 PM CST up reply actions  

i knew someone would say this

had he been closer in 1999, im sure they would have found a way for a few more ABs.

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 13, 2010 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

I dunno...

“Most hits in a decade” doesn’t strike me as one of those stats folks keep track of as it’s happening. Had Frank been closer in 1999, I don’t think there would have been one of those countdown banners like they had for Ripken’s streak or Bonds’ HRs.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 13, 2010 2:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Could not have said it better...
Frank Thomas’ career OPS was .974. Mark Grace’s career HIGH OPS was .911; his career OPS was .825. The comparison is ridiculous – it would be like comparing Grace to Nefi Perez.

Here: "How lucky was the city of Chicago during the 1980’s to have two of the best middle infielders of that decade playing in Chicago at once. We had Ozzie Guillen, and we know what he did on the Sox, but on the North Side, there was Ryne Sandberg, Ryno."

Yeah, that would probably just slide right by on BCB.

- by The Actual El Guapo on Feb 13, 2010 12:35 AM

"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009

by DrCrawdad on Feb 13, 2010 2:21 PM CST up reply actions  

unlike those on SSS

I would not have made this out to be a bad thing. i might have said comparing a 2B and a SS is goofy, but i would not have made a reply like this
 

thanks, that was a nice gesture….. but seriously, don’t ever compare mark grace to frank thomas. mark grace wouldn’t make a pimple on frank’s ass.
by mick10

or

Thanks for a classy write up- full and total props to you. Pity you root for such a wretched team in an derelict stadium in a hipster-riddled crap neighborhood… good luck with that.

Drunk Tank Mace
by DrEmilioLizardo

which you so conveniently skipped over DrC

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 13, 2010 2:56 PM CST up reply actions  

right on

The first post is right on, except for perhaps the crude reference.

"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009

by DrCrawdad on Feb 13, 2010 3:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't you hate it when...

… posters respond with angry, crude remarks and insults?

1. “how about you go (fornicate) yourself.”
2. “you can now (fornicate) off.”

"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009

by DrCrawdad on Feb 13, 2010 3:14 PM CST up reply actions  

when people go back and forth provoking

its not right but more understandable, but the first reply? Come on DrC, even you cannot justify that.

and no the first post was not right on, Grace was not horrible, which the first post basically is stating.

Grace also earned his WS Ring with Arizona, Thomas got his playing less than 1/4 of the season, and was not good in 2005.

Grace did not have the same power, no doubt, but he had a better glove, and his bat (minus the power difference) was far from bad.

Grace
Games 2245
Hits 2445
Doubles 511
Runs Scored 1179
Walks 1075
Strike Outs 642
Batting Average 301
OBP 383

Thomas
Games 2322
Hits 2468
Doubles 495
Runs Scored 1494
Walks 1667
Strike Outs 1397
Batting Average 301
OBP 419

I am not saying Grace = Thomas, but I am saying Grace is better than the first comment says, and that you are wrong saying that it is correct.

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 13, 2010 3:25 PM CST up reply actions  

typo

Grace BA 303 Thomas 301

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 13, 2010 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Grace was a very good baseball player.

Grace was nowhere near Thomas’ level. There’s not really much of a connection between watching Thomas become an all-time great in the 90s and watching Grace be a solid above-average player.

by aldimond on Feb 14, 2010 4:21 PM CST up reply actions  

i have not said they are equal

I have said Grace is better than the reaction of mentioning his name

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 14, 2010 5:25 PM CST up reply actions  

take it from me

both of those posters are homos.

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Feb 13, 2010 6:25 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Um...

… maybe you post like this at SSS. Here, this kind of comment is unacceptable.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 14, 2010 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

usually it comes accompanied

with dogs humping and then vomitting

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Feb 14, 2010 10:25 PM CST up reply actions  

apiens

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Feb 14, 2010 1:10 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

??

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 14, 2010 2:04 PM CST up reply actions  

it means "I'm cranky and need to be changed"

in SSSpeak

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Feb 14, 2010 10:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Great.

Hey, you guys are always welcome here. But it appears we have different rules of decorum than you have at SSS. If you want to participate in the discussion here, keep it clean, please.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 15, 2010 7:47 AM CST up reply actions  

And please...

… while at BCB play by the BCB rules.

Not acceptable:

  • Ugly smears & stereotypes of the Cubbies and Cubbie fans.

Perfectly acceptable:

  • Ugly smears & stereotypes of the Sox and Sox fans.

"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009

by DrCrawdad on Feb 15, 2010 6:52 PM CST up reply actions  

easy there

… while at BCB play by the BCB rules.

Not acceptable:

Ugly smears & stereotypes of the Cubbies and Cubbie fans. except some Cubbie fans
Perfectly acceptable:

Ugly smears & stereotypes of the Sox and Sox fans if they post double standards or misquote you

Suggested

Ugly smears & stereotypes of the Brewers and the Brewers Fans

SARCASM

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 15, 2010 7:15 PM CST up reply actions  

uh-oh, here we go ;)

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 15, 2010 7:17 PM CST up reply actions  

LMAO

DrC can read SARCASM

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 15, 2010 7:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Looks like Dr. Pavlov rang his bell again...

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 15, 2010 9:37 PM CST up reply actions  

rec'd

obvs

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Feb 14, 2010 10:25 PM CST up reply actions  

One more observation

Speaking of WSI, I do browse there. There is one category of posts called “What’s The Score?” The moderator has written that they do not endorse “Cubsessed” posts where the Cubs are bashed for the sake of it. They would rather have fans talk about the Cubs like they do the rest of the league. Ok, that makes sense. But, if that was the case, why the hell does the “What’s the Score” graphics have a sign that says “Welcome to Loserville – Home of the Urinal?” When you see something like that, just what kind of talk do you think that is going to encourage?

by Contempt on Feb 13, 2010 12:52 AM CST reply actions  

What is your White Sox Interactive user name?

"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009

by DrCrawdad on Feb 13, 2010 7:08 AM CST up reply actions  

I don’t post over there. I just occassionaly lurk into the general MLB forum. The chatter there is usually fun to read on the other MLB teams. Unfortunately, the Cubs don’t have a solid WSI of their own. NorthsideBaseball is decent but doesn’t come close. Thank goodness for BCB.

by Contempt on Feb 13, 2010 1:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Great write up. It really does justice to a great player. He was always one of my favorites growing up. I did take a look at his numbers compared to other 1st basemen and if we group him in with those guys he comes out at least the fifth or sixth best first basemen of all time. He is better than McCovey and he got in on the first ballot. I think the writers will give him a boost for not using steroids in this era. He is boarderline first ballot to me, but I would surely give it to him on the second ballot. I have not looked at a lot of the more advanced stats, but I could be convinced to group him in as a first ballot guy.

by CubsHOF on Feb 13, 2010 6:00 AM CST reply actions  

When I think of Frank Thomas

I think of a low outside pitch being driven into the right-centerfield gap. He was a pure hitter.

"You’re playing a baseball game. You’re not playing Tiddlywinks. There is competition, for God’s sake."— Lou Piniella

by PacificCub on Feb 13, 2010 11:37 AM CST via mobile reply actions  

Pure designated hitter

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Feb 13, 2010 12:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Did you know

he played tight end at Auburn. Tight end. How enormous must their O-Line men have been? On another note, I believe he is a first ballot Hall of Famer but would not be surprised if it is close. I think steroids has cast a shadow over anyone who has the appearance of a big muscular slugger. That said I think there might be some voters that don’t vote for him just because they can’t be sure. Just like Rick Tellander stated a few years back when he didn’t vote for Andre Dawson. This is also why I feel Maddux will get an extremely high vote total. In addition to his fantastic career, he certainly did not not have the body of someone who spent a great deal of time in the weight room. No offense Mad Dog.

by JJDiesel21 on Feb 13, 2010 12:20 PM CST reply actions  

Jessica countdown......5.....4....3....

Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.

by Ryno Runner on Feb 13, 2010 12:31 PM CST up reply actions  

another reason it will be close

is he was effectively a DH and there seems to be quite a bias against DHs (see Edgar Martinez). Even when Big Frank played 1B, he was effectively a DH.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Feb 13, 2010 12:40 PM CST up reply actions  

not really true

Thomas appeared at first in 971, and DH in 960 games in a White Sox uniform.

by cubssouvenirman on Feb 13, 2010 1:00 PM CST up reply actions  

DH or not Thomas is a first ballot HOF IMHO

and I am against the DH, but I think in some ways it is harder to produce as a DH when you are not involved in about 90% of the game.

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 13, 2010 1:05 PM CST up reply actions  

I doubt he is a 1st ballot inductee

for the reasons I have stated

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Feb 13, 2010 2:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Irrelevant as he was a bad 1B

the guy was a very good hitter, not a very good ballplayer

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Feb 13, 2010 2:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Thomas was a damn good ballplayer.

A bad defender, a slow runner, and a sublime hitter. His hitting was easily good enough to overshadow the things he did poorly.

by aldimond on Feb 14, 2010 4:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Doing one thing extremely well does not seem to be enough for most HOF voters,

otherwise Edgar Martinez and a few more closers would be in the Hall.

I will be shocked if Thomas is a 1st ballot inductee.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Feb 15, 2010 9:35 AM CST up reply actions  

Disagree...

…as a first baseman or DH, what do you want him to do well, hit or field?

On top of this, hitting (IMO) is the most difficult thing to do well in baseball and the comprehensive offensive numbers Thomas put up, are certainly of top shelf caliber and very rare.

Thomas has had a 1st ballot HOF career by any standard in my mind.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 15, 2010 11:04 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Please give some proof that Edgar Martinez and Frank Thomas are comparable hitters.

Frank Thomas for the first 8 seasons of his career was Albert Pujols, aka the greatest right-handed hitter of all time

Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Feb 16, 2010 11:55 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Why should I since I didn't make that claim?

That EMartinez was a DH will hurt his chances of making it into the HOF, just as it will FThomas. Many voters do not like one-dimensional players.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Feb 17, 2010 4:18 PM CST up reply actions  

As Ozzie Montana said, though...

… Thomas was a far better hitter than Edgar Martinez.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 17, 2010 5:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Irrelevant since it is not an either or question

Thomas’s bid for the HOF raises some interesting questions. He was a very one-dimensional ballplayer, all hit nothing else, and there appears to be a bias among Hall voters against one-dimensional players. Working in his favor, however, may be that he was a clean (read no steroids that we know of) in an era when it seems as if most of the other big bangers were juiced up. Maybe the Hall voters reward him for that? He may actually benefit from the steroid scandal.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Feb 18, 2010 7:58 AM CST up reply actions  

See Paul Molitor

He played a significant portion of his career at DH and he was a first ballot Hall of Famer. What it proves is that if you have one of the magic numbers (3,000 hits or 500 home runs), they’ll overlook how you got them unless you did steroids. Edgar Martinez belongs, but because the BBWAA can’t treat everyone with the same logic, he has to sit out until they pull their heads out of their collective butts. Alan Trammell is a great case in point and he’s still waiting for that moment even though they drooled at the idea of inducting Ozzie Smith on the first ballot.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Feb 15, 2010 8:52 AM CST up reply actions  

Edgar Martinez belongs?

Really? I’d say he’s borderline. He has none of the magic numbers, and by my count he had only seven HoF quality seasons. He was a very good player for a long time. Not HoF worthy, no matter what position he played (or didn’t).

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 15, 2010 9:07 AM CST up reply actions  

When you consider...

…he accumulated over 300 win shares by basically playing his career as a DH, that’s pretty awesome because that’s not an easy thing to do. It took two seasons under Lou Piniella’s management (see a pattern here) before Piniella figured out the guy should have been a DH because the guy couldn’t keep from getting injured while playing on the field. It would be worth faulting Piniella if Martinez wasn’t a full time DH in 1995, played the field and missed another season due to injury. I find other reasons to criticize Piniella and the lack of numbers for Martinez isn’t one of them.

Edgar Martinez, Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Stan Musial, Rogers Hornsby, Lou Gehrig, Manny Ramirez, and Todd Helton are the only players with 300 home runs, 500 doubles, a career batting average higher than .300, a career on-base percentage higher than .400 and a career slugging percentage higher than .500. That’s very exclusive company. I wasn’t so delusional that Martinez would go first ballot, but if he’s not in before Frank Thomas, then the bias is clear.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Feb 15, 2010 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

That's a cherry-picked list...

… not necessarily Hall-worthy. You list five categories. Mark Grace qualifies for two of them (500 doubles, .300+ career BA), didn’t miss a third by much (career OBA .383). Grace also had more hits than Martinez. Does that make Grace Hall-worthy?

Of course it doesn’t, and Martinez is not a Hall of Famer, either. He was a very good hitter for a long time, but had only seven peak seasons. Not enough in my book. I would not vote for him.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 15, 2010 2:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Grace and Martinez are in completely different classes

I could take any list and call it cherry picking, which doesn’t prove anything. Comparing Grace to Martinez isn’t exactly the best comparison. Will Clark is a more valid comparison and I think that guy seriously got the shaft thanks to the steroid era. Martinez fits in the same category, though it’s clear he’s getting a bit of extra boost for being a great DH while Clark had guys like Jeff Bagwell, Mark McGwire and Rafael Palmeiro as competition.

Martinez averaged a 163 OPS+ from 1995-2001. In Mark Grace’s best years, he never even sniffed anything close to that. Martinez had 305 win shares despite having a career mostly played as a DH. Grace only had 294 and he actually played the field. In terms of WAR, there’s absolutely no comparison. Grace had a 47.0 WAR while Martinez was worth 67.2 WAR.

I’m not going to argue that Frank Thomas doesn’t belong, but I don’t see the knock against Martinez other than the fact that he DH’ed.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Feb 15, 2010 3:23 PM CST up reply actions  

OK, you cherry-picked Martinez's seven best seasons.

From 1991-1997, Thomas had a 182 OPS+. And he had other Hall-worthy seasons beyond those. Martinez really didn’t.

He had a great peak. The rest of his career is pedestrian, and apart from the 500+ doubles, doesn’t have a high position in any of the counting stat categories.

I don’t think Win Shares is a good measure of Hall worthiness. But if you want to go that route, Thomas had 383 (through 2006), far more than Martinez.

Again, to me, Edgar Martinez was a very good player for a long time, not Hall-worthy. He’s Jim Edmonds, essentially. Or Bernie Williams.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 15, 2010 3:31 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

rec'd

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 15, 2010 3:37 PM CST up reply actions  

rec'd

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 15, 2010 3:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Bernie Williams? Jim Edmonds?

Ricky Henderson had far more win shares than Frank Thomas, but that doesn’t make Frank Thomas any less worthy than Rickey Henderson. I don’t even get why you’d compare Martinez to Edmonds or B. Williams. Are you serious? Edgar Martinez was better than them both. I’d take Edgar Martinez in the Hall of Fame before Ron Santo and I can say that with a straight face.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Feb 15, 2010 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm going to respectfully disagree.

Santo’s numbers were put up in a lower-offense era. He played an outstanding third base. Over an eight-year period (1963-70) he averaged 105 RBI and had an .877 OPS in an era when no one hit the way they did today.

That’s really an insult to Santo.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 15, 2010 3:54 PM CST up reply actions  

even Joe Morgan has said he belongs in the HOF

sure it was on the DVD This Old Cub, but for him to say that EVER says something about Santo.

Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 15, 2010 3:55 PM CST up reply actions  

And lest we forget....

Mr. Sandbergs HOF induction speach…. “And by the way, for what it’s worth, Ron Santo just gained one more vote from the veteran’s committee.”

~Ronald Reagan has held the two most demeaning jobs in the country; President of the United States and radio broadcaster for the Chicago Cubs~ George F. Will

by unretrofied93 on Feb 15, 2010 5:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I didn't say Santo didn't belong

But I’m less inclined to support his candidacy than I was a year ago. I don’t scratch my head at Ron Santo’s exclusion, but I do for Edgar Martinez.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Feb 15, 2010 4:00 PM CST up reply actions  

There was a time...

… however brief, where you could have made a case for Santo as the best player in the National League. Martinez wasn’t even close to being that, at any point.

I’m not penalizing him for being a DH. He was actually a decent 3B before injuries forced him to DH. But Santo’s defense, IMO, gives him far more HoF cred.

Martinez, IMO, is not a Hall of Famer. We’ll see how much support he gets.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 15, 2010 5:15 PM CST up reply actions  

He had a relativly decent showing last year.

Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.

by Ryno Runner on Feb 15, 2010 5:30 PM CST up reply actions  

It's also why some guys have more win shares than Martinez

Martinez is actually penalized by the system itself because he does not have the defensive win shares that other players have. Martinez started off with 36.2% of the vote, more than Tim Raines or Fred McGriff.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Feb 15, 2010 5:40 PM CST up reply actions  

I've never been big on Edgar Martinez for HOF

But you’ve convinced me. Besides, if Mazeroski can make it, maybe they should just let everyone in.

"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman

by BucknerKongCardenal on Feb 15, 2010 10:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Even though he was a Southy

I look at him as a 1st ballet HOF, when we weren’t televised, i’d usually check out the Sox if they were on WGN to check out the Big Hurt make pitchers look foolish, especially coming out of a decade where everyone who put up numbers similar to his are in the center of the steroid accusations.

by unretrofied93 on Feb 13, 2010 2:55 PM CST reply actions  

Great hitter...

…and clearly (IMO) a first ballot HOF guy.

Not too often you see the blend of great power and great average, and Thomas was one of a handful that did just that.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 15, 2010 9:47 AM CST reply actions  

If Thomas isn't a first ballot HOF guy

No one is. For a decade he was consistently listed in elite company with the 4 or 5 all-time greats. A pure hitter and slugger with strike zone mastery….it doesn’t get much better.

"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman

by BucknerKongCardenal on Feb 15, 2010 10:26 PM CST reply actions  

Excellent article by KC writer, Joe Posanski

One helluva an article – clearly lays out the facts for Frank Thomas as a clear Hall Of Famer AND attacks the steroid accusations (see "Jerry Morales" ’I’m not saying, I’m just saying…’ comments).

FRANK THOMAS’ AMAZING CAREER:

For his career, Thomas has a .300 batting average and 500 home runs. That right there should make him an absolute Hall of Fame lock. Nine players in baseball have that combination — and only seven of them pulled it off with no steroid stain on their careers (A-Rod and MannyBManny are the other two). The seven are:
    1. Hank Aaron
    2. Babe Ruth
    3. Willie Mays
    4. Jimmie Foxx
    5. Ted Williams
    6. Mel Ott
    7. Frank Thomas
    Not bad, eh? …
Seasons with 100 runs, 100 RBIs, 100 walks and .300 average:

    1. Babe Ruth, 12
    2. Lou Gehrig, 10
    3. Frank Thomas, 8
    (tied) Barry Bonds, 8
    (tied) Ted Williams, 8
    6. Jimmie Foxx, 6
    7. Mel Ott, 5

    Thomas was not a good fielder, of course — he actually spent more games at DH than first base — and he was famously slow on the bases in the later years of his career. But he’s one of the greatest hitters in baseball history, and an absolute Hall of Fame slam dunk.

ON THE STEROIDS SMEARS:

Frank Thomas is probably the most prominent non-steroid user in baseball history. Of course, we can’t know the secret lives of bees or people. But every indication is that Frank Thomas avoided steroids. He was so public about his disgust over performance enhancing drugs. He advocated steroid testing fifteen years ago. He came forward to talk to the Mitchell Report people. If he used steroids, it was one hell of an act.

"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009

by DrCrawdad on Feb 16, 2010 6:55 AM CST reply actions  

Agreed.

If Thomas hadn’t been injured, we might be talking about him having 600+ home runs.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 16, 2010 7:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Bleed Cubbie Blue, the Chicago Cubs blog for the SB Nation, created on February 9, 2005 by Al Yellon

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Maybe it's time to take a deep breath

Recent FanPosts

Zambrano_background_2_small
What is the most likely move in June regarding current players?
Small
Draft Prep: Pierce Johnson
Small
Trying to be positive (need some help)
Small
Soriano back to Second?
Small
Javier Baez Peoria Bound?
Small
Draft Prep: Conference Tournament Version
Despite-an-inflated-babip-lahair-is-no-one-month-wonder
Suddenly, I feel your pain
Small
Start of the LaHair Regression?
Dsc06783_small
Rookie Season Ticket Open House

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Doug Glanville On His Teammate, Kerry Wood
Thanks.
Samardzija takes a dig at Hawk Harrelson
Chicago vs. Chicago, Round 2.
Wrigley Field Photo Gallery

Recent FanShots

Former MLB PItcher Bob Ojeda On Pitching And Pain
Wrigley Field Supporters Propose Tearing Down Rest Of Chicago
2012 Stars and Stripes Hat
Sveum moves Castro back to #2 spot
OT: Tyler Colvin bats 2nd
The Pittsburgh Pirates Offensive Catastrophe
Roy Halladay Bobblehead Fail
Full sized image
All The Topps Baseball Card Cubs, 1951 - 2012
Rob Neyer answers the question: When should the Cubs call up Anthony Rizzo?

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

Featured Poll

Poll
Should the National League adopt the designated hitter rule?

  969 votes | Results

Cubs By The Numbers

Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.

Click here to order your copy, available now!

Recent Stories in Chicago Cubs Game Threads

Yahoo_full_count

Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges


Managing Editor

Alyellontoppscard_small Al Yellon

Front Page Contributors

Profile_small Josh Timmers

B_w_avatar_small Brett Taylor

Marvin_the_martian_small Shawn Domagal-Goldman

Other Contributors

Toonmike_small Mike Bojanowski

Dsc_0139_small David Sameshima