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Alfonso Soriano reports to camp still "hurt"

As reported by Bruce Levine, Alfonso Soriano has reported to camp hurt. His surgically repaired knee is still ailing from its procedure in September. Here is more:

 

"I don't feel 100 percent because I'm not running 100 percent," Soriano said on Monday. "I'm just running 75 to 80 percent, and I don't feel nothing that hurts. When I start running 100 percent I want to know how it feels."

Soriano listed his percentage of recovery at 75-80 percent, and said he hasn't tried to run full throttle on the knee during the winter.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=4936522

This is anything but good. We need Soriano to be fully healed and play around 150 games this year in order to compete. But, perhaps there was nothing he could do about it. Meh...

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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I can understand

I had knee surgery in 2005, and it wasn’t until 2007 that I was able to fully run and go 100% in my activities….not surprising that his knee isn’t 100%

by nmcubsfan on Feb 22, 2010 3:09 PM CST reply actions  

yeah like I said he may not have been able to do anything about it

this shows that his days of lead off hitting are essentially over

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 22, 2010 3:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd love to be wrong...

…but I’d guess Soriano’s days as a speed threat periord are over. It seems like he’s been running more tentatively ever since he suffered that first bout of leg injuries back in 2007. I can’t imagine this knee thing is going to help matters any. I just hope he eventually feels good enough to hit for power again.

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by daver on Feb 22, 2010 3:24 PM CST up reply actions  

we'll certainly be able to find out

We get to watch him for five more years!

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 3:24 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm no Soriano hater but, man, that seems like an eternity.

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by daver on Feb 22, 2010 3:26 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

we're in agreement

But I think we’re going to see more and more moves in the next couple years designed toward working around Soriano. I wouldn’t be surprised if Lee isn’t re-signed so Soriano moves to first after this season.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 3:30 PM CST up reply actions  

This.

From a pure fan perspective i hate to see Lee go to make room for Soriano, but its about the only way i see this going.

He’s not going to get a lot more talented suddenly, he’s not going to start running like 25 year old again, and nobody is going to take his contract. We’ve got him, and its time to start considering what to do about it. 1st base makes sense (provided the hop can be eliminated), and hopefully somebody can work with him to get his plate appearances a little easier to stomach.

Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Feb 22, 2010 3:32 PM CST up reply actions  

I really don't think so...

I think you’ll see Ramirez end up there

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Feb 22, 2010 3:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Rami still has value...

… so while i’d certainly PREFER to see him there, we aren’t STUCK with him like we are with Soriano.

Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Feb 22, 2010 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Right.

And moving Soriano to first probably keeps on the field more. I don’t think you could say the same thing about moving Aramis across the diamond.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 3:54 PM CST up reply actions  

I think if Vitters makes it up

eventually Ramirez moves over.

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Feb 22, 2010 3:55 PM CST up reply actions  

I think I've

heard of some, but I also think I’ve heard he’s progressed. Good question for Josh. However, look at how Ramirez came along with his D. I would hat to start moving Vitter’s around the diamond.

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Feb 22, 2010 3:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Do you think he will?

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by daver on Feb 22, 2010 3:55 PM CST up reply actions  

IMO, the only we he doesn't opt out is if he has a bad year

Mind you, opting out doesn’t mean he’s no longer going to be a Cub. Just that he’d want a new contract while he’s a year younger and (probably) more productive.

by madcow256 on Feb 22, 2010 4:21 PM CST up reply actions  

which sucks

If he has a good, healthy season, he’ll probably opt out. If his injuries continue, we’re stuck with him.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 3:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Are you saying

he’ll opt out and test the market? Or opt out and resign?

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Feb 22, 2010 3:58 PM CST up reply actions  

either way

If he opts out and leaves, that sucks. If he opts out and we have to pay him even more, that sucks, too.

It’s bad when you have to hope your best player doesn’t have a great year, because if he does, he’ll test the market.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 4:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Such is the nature of player options, unfortunately

The Bulls were just forced to trade away John Salmons because his player option (given to him by the Kings) really messed with their 2010 summer plans.

A player option is a fantastic thing for the player, and not so much for the team.

by madcow256 on Feb 22, 2010 4:26 PM CST up reply actions  

beg 2 differ

the most valuable player on a fringy nba team (like chicago) is the expiring contract. then you can spend the money expiring on bosh/lebron/dwade/etc

by tim815 on Feb 23, 2010 8:18 AM CST up reply actions  

It sounds like you agree with me

You’d rather have a player whose contract is definitely up after the season is over than a player who has a choice to stay on and block room for a max contract.

That is why the Bulls made the trade, and why player options are bad for teams.

by madcow256 on Feb 23, 2010 10:03 AM CST up reply actions  

Not necessarily. Players in Salmons' position often opt out for one last chance to get a multi-year contract.

Chicago’s trade had more to do with their ardent refusal to move Kirk Hinrich.

Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Feb 23, 2010 9:19 AM CST up reply actions  

Salmon's option meant that the team couldn't treat him as an expiring contract

and as such had to trade him to a team they are competing with for the playoffs for players that are inferior simply because they don’t have the option of taking the option for next season. If Salmons was going to opt out for sure (which I don’t see, he’s having a bad year and is young enough that he will get another decent contract even in 2011) they wouldn’t have had to make that trade.

by madcow256 on Feb 23, 2010 10:02 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm not so sure I agree 100%

I see the point, but you can’t go around hoping players have down years so they don’t leave. They need Ramirez to healthy and to be as good as he can be. You can only hope he sticks around. There is no guarantee that he bails out. If he has a big year, and he wants to stick around I see no problem in paying him.

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Feb 22, 2010 4:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Ramirez has opted out before.

Twice, IIRC, and came back both times.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 22, 2010 4:27 PM CST up reply actions  

but the situations were different

I can’t remember when Aramis opted out the first time, but things were very different in winter 2006-07 than they likely will be in winter 2010-11.

I don’t see any way the Cubs will lose 96 games this season and need to spend big to bring back the fans. Further, I don’t see any way they’ll have the money to do so.

Now, it’s possible they’ll have money if they don’t re-sign Lee and Lilly. But I don’t see how all three are back in 2011, especially if Aramis opts out.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 4:34 PM CST up reply actions  

The first time was after the 2004 season.

He was signed literally hours before Opening Day 2005.

My guess is, he might opt out, but the Cubs will sign him again — and maybe give him another opt out clause.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 22, 2010 4:42 PM CST up reply actions  

do you see Lilly, Lee and Ramirez ...

back in 2011? With the money going to Dempster, Z, Kosuke, Soriano and Byrd, I doubt all three will be back.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 4:48 PM CST up reply actions  

LOL

It all depends on how much Ricketts wants to increase the 2011 payroll. It’s way too early to know.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 22, 2010 5:58 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I think this year is all evaluative

I further think the Rickett’s have a plan, they are doing some interesting things:
A) Investing in their revenue plant and most valuable asset, Wrigley Field.
B) Expanding that asset long term to a year-long revenue stream.
C) Hiring that PR person on ‘Fan Experience’ who used to work with BOSOX and LAD. This is both research and proposal.
D) Investment in the talent stream and development.

Now as for the on field current product I think Ramirez is the kind of player long term the team could invest for long term. Lee unless he has a MVP level year might not be indispensable.

Moving Soriano to 1B might be in the offing, he is anchor on the payroll and LF could be the place for Vitters if he arrives.

I look at Soriano like the Yanks did with Giambi….

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Feb 23, 2010 9:48 AM CST up reply actions  

I suspect it's Ramirez who goes to 1B, not Soriano.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 23, 2010 9:52 AM CST up reply actions  

ding ding ding

newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 22, 2010 6:28 PM CST up reply actions  

That was my point...

He probably will opt out, however that doesn’t mean he’s going to bail on the Cubs.

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Feb 22, 2010 4:39 PM CST up reply actions  

well, clearly ...

I’m hoping Aramis has a good year. I think this is the last year this nucleus has before rebuilding begins.

But consider 2006. Aramis played a ton of games and had his best year — for a team that lost 96 games. I’m not blaming him for it, but Aramis does play for contracts.

If he has a good to great year, I can’t imagine him NOT opting out. And with Vitters in the wings and Soriano possibly needing to go to first …

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 4:30 PM CST up reply actions  

I’m not blaming him for it, but Aramis does play for contracts.

rami has 99 problems, and a contract aint one.

ofcourse the 99 are injuries to various muscles and ligaments..

by jesus christos on Feb 22, 2010 9:24 PM CST up reply actions  

well ...

Aramis has played in 157 games in 2006. Now, considering how BAD the Cubs were that year, he could have easily sat out a lot of games late in the year. But he didn’t, he wracked up his best career numbers AND he got a huge pay day.

Coincidence?

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 9:29 PM CST up reply actions  

If Vitters is "in the wings", those are some pretty huge wings!

Let’s see if the guy can hit at high-A before we start making MLB roster moves with him in mind!

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 7:07 AM CST up reply actions  

Soriano at First?

Yikes.

Ramirez is definitely the better option for first base if you ask me. Still has a couple more third base years left in him, I’d think.

by ZachenFoot on Feb 23, 2010 12:12 PM CST up reply actions  

well, a couple of positives could arise ...

I like D-Lee, but I’m not sure if investing $12 million (or so) for another two years is a great idea. He’s getting old, too — and the Cubs don’t have a ton of money to spare. And Soriano might stay healthier playing first as opposed to left.

Last thought: The Cubs have struggled to find a lefty bat in recent years, partly because two positions where teams can usually put them — first and left — are occupied by two guys who hit right handed. Shedding Lee and moving Soriano could allow the Cubs to get someone in left who hits left handed.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 3:38 PM CST up reply actions  

I shudder to think of him fielding grounders from 90 feet

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Feb 22, 2010 3:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, yeah, but if Ryan Howard, Jim Thome and

Frank Thomas could play 1st, so could a guy with some experience of trying to play second.

at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!

by N Oakley on Feb 22, 2010 3:40 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm thinking more a lighter Prince Fielder

Without the agility

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Feb 22, 2010 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

And the temper.

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by daver on Feb 22, 2010 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Funny thing is the Fonz could use a little more anger.

Prince has rage to burn, maybe he can loan Hippity Hop a little.

at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!

by N Oakley on Feb 22, 2010 4:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd hate to be nearby

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Feb 23, 2010 10:22 AM CST up reply actions  

I really don't see this happening Andrew,

the thought of Soriano in the infield again, even at first frightens me. His bat is a corner infield bat, but his glove is terrible. I’ve been a pretty big Lee basher over the years (as you well know) but his glove saves us a tremendous amount of runs per season, Soriano wouldn’t give us anywhere near that level of defense. I do not think Lee will be back after this year but, I guess you never know. I think the transition from 3rd to 1st for Ramirez would be much easier and if Vitters is ready for the bigs next season, do it.
As for Soriano, keep him in left, and hope that the NL adopts the DH or hope he remembers how to hit again and find somebody crazy enough to trade for him.

by tripdenten on Feb 23, 2010 9:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Uh oh...
hope that the NL adopts the DH

Que the onslaught…

Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Feb 23, 2010 10:27 AM CST up reply actions  

Well,

with this Cubs team as currently constructed, and with questions regarding Soriano’s health and ability to play the field in the long-run, maybe a rule change wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world for the Cubs. Having said that, I don’t actually expect the NL to adopt the DH, so let’s just hope Soriano recovers and can play a moderately decent LF.

by tripdenten on Feb 23, 2010 10:48 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm not in favor of the DH...

…but I’ve been having the exact same thought lately regarding such a rule change.

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by daver on Feb 23, 2010 11:35 AM CST up reply actions  

Pretty much spot on.

If we are stuck with Soriano, it’d be helpful.

Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Feb 23, 2010 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't be surprised....

… if the NL adopts the DH as part of the next labor agreement. Management is tired of pitchers (Zambrano, Peavy, Wang) getting hurt while batting or running the bases. It will almost certainly be used as a bargaining chip.

I don’t like the DH either, but it’s probably coming, and it would make Soriano’s last three years pretty useful.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 23, 2010 1:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 23, 2010 2:05 PM CST up reply actions  

yes but it solves the Soriano question for a while

he could be the 8th or 9th hitter making $18M

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Feb 24, 2010 8:14 AM CST up reply actions  

Bargaining chip for whom?

Aside from a sizable chunk of fans – and let’s be honest, when have fans ever mattered in contract negotiations – who would be against adding the DH?

If management is tired of their pitchers getting hurt, sounds like they’re on board. And if players (and their agents) see longer careers and more dollars, sounds like they’re on board. And though not directly involved with the labor agreement, you can bet the networks would be on board with this as well.

So who doesn’t want the DH such that this could be used as a bargaining chip?

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 23, 2010 2:36 PM CST up reply actions  

No one, probably.

That’s why I think it probably will be added.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 23, 2010 3:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Two words: Carlos. Zambrano.

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by daver on Feb 23, 2010 3:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Haha, luckily he'll be retired by 2012!!!

But on a serious note, this “temporary project” that is the DH is certainly on its way to the NL. It really is a shame, but we should probably all just get ready for it.

by bdlugz on Feb 24, 2010 8:40 PM CST up reply actions  

yep

This is the year...

by Chanman25 on Mar 8, 2010 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow, yeah, maybe that is the future.

Makes sense, unfortunately enough. I guess the only other alternative would be for the NL to incorporate the DH.

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by daver on Feb 22, 2010 3:35 PM CST up reply actions  

The Cubs do not him to be a pseed threat

as he is now a middle of the order hitter, but they do need him to hit and hit for power.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Feb 23, 2010 11:12 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed.

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by daver on Feb 23, 2010 11:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Soriano...

…had a minor scope (clean up) of his knee, and it shouldn’t take this long for him to be healthy. In fact, guys have come back to play within 2 weeks of having a similar procedure.

IMO, Soriano is one of the guys who rarely feels “100%” in his own mind.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 8:47 PM CST up reply actions  

exactly......

….his 100% is probably how he felt in mid twenties….liker alot of us!

by JB 23 on Feb 23, 2010 7:06 AM CST up reply actions  

Thank you.

I’m not too pleased reading this. At all. This leads me to wonder how his conditioning was during the offseason and if he was really working hard enough to get that knee at 100%.

I’m sure it’s fine. Just not to Soriano.

by ZachenFoot on Feb 23, 2010 12:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Can you play Left Field?

"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver

by RiskyBusiness on Feb 23, 2010 10:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Soriano has a bum knee and Nady has a bum arm

So let’s have Soriano ride on Nady’s back – together maybe they could make one passable left fielder

"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella

by El Borto on Feb 22, 2010 3:11 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

LOL

I would definitely pay to see that!

by ZeoBandit on Feb 22, 2010 3:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Or what about

we just attach Nadys leg onto Soriano’s body?

by chicagodave on Feb 22, 2010 3:17 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't understand...

who is then responsible for the “hop?” Does Nady have to hop with Soriano’s added weight on him, or does Soriano hop off of Nady before the catch? I guess that’s why they have Spring Training, to work these things out…

by John916 on Feb 22, 2010 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

It will look more like a full-body heave.

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by daver on Feb 22, 2010 3:24 PM CST up reply actions  

HA!

That really made me laugh!

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Feb 22, 2010 3:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Set it to music and it might look like this:

"There's more to life than profits...like, you know, slurpees and stuff." ~Randy Marsh

by Goodie1969 on Feb 22, 2010 4:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Lmao.

Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.

by Ryno Runner on Feb 24, 2010 7:24 PM CST up reply actions  

HA HA!!

Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 22, 2010 7:48 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't understand you saying this is anything but good

While I would rather hear Sori say “I’m running at 100% and everything is perfect” we all know that after that kind of procedure that’s not gonna happen. I took it as a positive that he’s not trying to rush anything and is keeping himself shut down a little.

If the world didn't suck we would all fall off.

by carolinacub on Feb 22, 2010 3:17 PM CST reply actions  

I'd agree with that.

You don’t want or need someone to be going all out on the first day of camp. It’s been almost six months since his surgery — he should be getting pretty close.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 22, 2010 3:19 PM CST up reply actions  

My theory

Soriano’s slow recovery played a larger role in the Cubs’ offseason than we knew. Consider:

The Cubs signed Nady and went after Dye — two guys who could hit fifth or sixth in the order if Soriano can’t play. Meanwhile, the Cubs seemed to have less interest in guys like Reed Johnson and Podsednik.

Also, the Cubs are hanging on to a lot of guys who COULD play left but who don’t seem to have a spot on this team — Hoff, Tracy, Millar — barring injuries.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 3:19 PM CST reply actions  

I agree

"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella

by El Borto on Feb 22, 2010 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

oh, and when I say "slow recovery"

I don’t mean that as a slight on Soriano.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 3:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Hoff, Tracy, Millar

LaHair, Spencer, heck, even Jason Dubois is back in Iowa this year!

Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"

by cubzfan on Feb 22, 2010 5:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Well admitting the problem is better than last year

when he claimed he had no problem. Now maybe Lou will realize he can’t play him just because the fans expect to see a star.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 22, 2010 3:24 PM CST reply actions  

Yeah your right

He was valiant but foolish last year to play through an injury, and this may be the reason why he is set back this year.

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 22, 2010 3:30 PM CST up reply actions  

The tiniest of stars out there

"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver

by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 22, 2010 4:11 PM CST up reply actions  

bingo.

that was might thought exactly, Jessica. At least he’s being honest about it.

you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT

by Emelie on Feb 22, 2010 6:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe someone could inform me?

I’ve never had knee problems so I’m wondering how it effects any training? I wonder how it plays into Soriano working on the other parts of his game.

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Feb 22, 2010 3:26 PM CST reply actions  

Well, it effects everything

You can’t really swing a bat or do any fielding. Until your knee feels back to normal, your swing won’t be normal.

by jerry morales rules on Feb 22, 2010 3:39 PM CST up reply actions  

I should have investigated more before posting...

I did not know it was his left knee. Then inevitably, it is a much bigger deal. I know some knee injuries are goofy. Where one athletic movement might not tirgger it, but a much more minor movement could.

However, after reading it and seeing he’s running around 75% there is no reason it should have affected him from hitting that badly. Sure, he can’t just cut loose but there are specific drills he probably could do without harming it.

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Feb 22, 2010 3:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Yup,

per the link below he does not feel pain in batting practice.

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Feb 22, 2010 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Swinging a bat is just so tricky though

Without knowing the pain, it’s hard to gauge. Little things can mean a lot.

by jerry morales rules on Feb 22, 2010 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

you mean like bunting? ;-)

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 22, 2010 5:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Rec'd.

Thanks for the description. I think Soriano will be fine. As you say, it will take time — but that’s what spring training is for.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 22, 2010 8:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Also rec'd

I trust Fonzie, and I believe he will do his absolute best to get back out there. The big question or me would have to be that if he’s 80% now, what was he last year? What can we expect from him?

"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver

by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 22, 2010 8:43 PM CST up reply actions  

I dont ...he played all last year without telling anyone he was hurt

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 22, 2010 8:44 PM CST up reply actions  

the cubs knew he was hurt

they just didnt do anything about it for 5 months

by jesus christos on Feb 22, 2010 8:51 PM CST up reply actions  

is that a fact?

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 22, 2010 8:52 PM CST up reply actions  

It's true

as far as it goes. The Cubs were slow to realize that an injury had occurred, but this happens all the time with torn meniscus injuries. I really don’t think this is a situation that warrants the assignment of blame. It is really hard to describe or understand if you haven’t experienced it. I played football a whole year with a torn meniscus. I thought I had sprained my knee and when it felt fine the next day, I just figured it was a minor sprain. When I kept spraining it, it took me (and my Dr.) a long time before we realized there was something else going on. There is a knee stability test that Dr’s can do to help them determine if there is structural damage, but that isn’t 100%. It is more useful for diagnosing ligament damage than meniscus tears.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 9:02 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Wouldn't say they didn't do anything about it

but it is true they didn’t do the one thing they needed to do, which was to get an MRI performed.

A torn meniscus, because of the nature of the injury, has to be one of the most misdiagnosed and poorly understood sports injuries. The athlete will tell you he feels fine 95% of the time…it is not because he is hiding anything, it is because he really does feel fine.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 8:54 PM CST up reply actions  

you're right I never had an injury related to sports, so just one more question....

if it feels fine, why does it still effect his ability to play?

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 23, 2010 8:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Because he remembers the pain.

That’s something that’s really hard to get over and is the last step in recovery.

I broke my ankle in college and when I got my cast off, the doctor told me to stand on it. That was the worst pain I’ve ever felt. He didn’t warn me that it would hurt, I had never even had a sprained ankle before so I had no idea it would hurt so much to stand on it.

Because I remembered the pain so vividly, it took quite a while to walk without a limp. Even after my ankle was fully healed, I remembered the pain and walked with a limp. Essentially, the physical pain was gone but I still remembered it and compensated for it.

This may be what Soriano is going through and if so, it will just take time for him to gain the confidence that the physical pain is gone. He just has to get over the memory of that pain to be fully recovered.

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Feb 23, 2010 10:00 AM CST up reply actions  

Let me re word that

I almost respect him, and that’s why. I always thought he played for the money, and only the money, but after last year, I’ve come to realize that he really does want to play, and wants to be out there every day.

"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver

by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 22, 2010 10:28 PM CST up reply actions  

I’m sure he is playing for he money, who wouldn’t. But I would never think that is the only reason that he played. You don’t play game after game, year after year just for the money. The grind is just to hard. Imagine doing your job with no weekends and with a bunch of people watching you day after day and booing you not because you aren’t doing your job but because they think they can do it better. It takes more than just money and I don’t think Soriano needs any more. if he only played for the money there would come a day when he’d just quit like others have done and say he wanted to spend more time with his family.

Baseball is too much of a sport to be a business and too much of a business to be a sport.
William Wrigley Jr

by bubbamike the one and only on Feb 23, 2010 1:46 AM CST up reply actions  

Rec'd

That just makes me respect Andre Dawson even more. I remember he had his knee scoped during the all-star break in ‘89, and he couldn’t have missed more than a week of games before he was back in RF. Sheer guts.

by bc009121 on Feb 23, 2010 7:35 AM CST up reply actions  

But a debridement is not a reconstruction

I had one of my knees reconstructed and some debridement. That was more serious than what Soriano went through. As far as I know, it was just the debridement and there was no ligament damage.

If there was ligament damage, then I’m not at all surprised that he is still feeling effects. I’m not a doctor, but I don’t think that a meniscus tear will cause any stability issues with the knee. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

by jerry morales rules on Feb 23, 2010 9:48 AM CST up reply actions  

↑ What he said. ↑

Pretty much affects everything.

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by daver on Feb 22, 2010 3:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Note: I am no Soriano hater, he is actually one of my favorite players

That being said, I can still feel frustrated by his injury problems

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 22, 2010 3:31 PM CST reply actions  

LOL

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Feb 22, 2010 3:32 PM CST reply actions  

That stinks. While understandable, I was hoping

he’d be able to go 100% in ST to get into a groove in April.

at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!

by N Oakley on Feb 22, 2010 3:41 PM CST reply actions  

I don't think that this

is a huge surprise, really. I don’t think either he, nor the Cubs expected him to be at 100% at this point in time.

Lou says that he looks “wonderful”. And it seems like the general thinking is that he should be right near 100% by Opening Day.

"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." ~Alvin Dark

by DamonBerryhillsMitt on Feb 22, 2010 3:42 PM CST reply actions  

In September they expected him to be 100% by the spring.

Technicaly, it’s still not spring, so he’s got exactly one month to get to be 100%.

by jerry morales rules on Feb 22, 2010 3:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly

"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." ~Alvin Dark

by DamonBerryhillsMitt on Feb 22, 2010 3:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Worst free agent signing in Cubs history

That said, I hope he gets better.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Feb 22, 2010 3:42 PM CST reply actions  

I disagree

Without a minor league system, we overspent on Fonzie and got two NLC crowns in a row.

by tim815 on Feb 22, 2010 3:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Well ...

winning two division titles wouldn’t categorically make it a good signing.

But I’d say the Bradley signing was worse.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 3:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Bradley was pretty bad

What differs the Soriano signing from the Bradley signing is that we were able to dump Bradley. It may have caused more problems in the long run than it solved, but the Cubs were able to get rid of Bradley once they saw it wasn’t going to work. The Soriano deal is really one of those signings that’s bad in hindsight. Coming off a 40-40 season, he ends up having knee problems and doesn’t quite deliver with all his promises. I realize we won the division twice with Soriano in the lineup, but we were five outs away from a World Series in 2003. The signing did not get us any closer to the ultimate goal than we were back when Mark Prior and Kerry Wood were in the starting rotation.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Feb 22, 2010 3:56 PM CST up reply actions  

it all depends ...

on what makes the signing worse to each of us.

Soriano helped get the Cubs to the playoffs for two straight years, but now he’s getting more and more injured, and we have him for five more seasons.

Bradley was a destabilizing force in the clubhouse, had a decent year (at best) but didn’t really deliver what the Cubs needed and forced the Cubs to take on the dead weight (lots of it!) in Carlos Silva.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 4:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah

but it only lasted for 1 year. Sori is eight for an absurd amount of money, and all in his 30s.

"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players." -Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

by propheteer on Feb 22, 2010 4:10 PM CST up reply actions  

you're about to get the tone-changing argument

It goes like this: Had the Cubs not signed Soriano, they wouldn’t have been able to re-sign Aramis, sign Lilly, etc.

Not sure if I disagree. I just know how the Sori argument goes …

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 4:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Not sure if I buy this angle

cause the Cubs could’ve brought in a similar talent as Sori, but with less risk and investment.

"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players." -Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

by propheteer on Feb 22, 2010 4:16 PM CST up reply actions  

The guy available at the time ...

with “similar talent” was Carlos Lee. His contract is three years shorter, but Lee also wanted to play in Texas, not Chicago.

I don’t remember who else was available in the 2006-07 offseason. But I don’t think there were that many other outfield power bats available.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 4:19 PM CST up reply actions  

No, I believe you're right.

Certainly they could’ve brought in a couple of guys for the price of his contract. Or at least waited it out until the length of the deal was lowered.

"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players." -Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

by propheteer on Feb 22, 2010 5:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Care to name a name?

Follow me on Twitter here and catch my twice-weekly Cubs news updates here.

by daver on Feb 23, 2010 11:38 AM CST up reply actions  

I'll give you two names

Mark Bellhorn and Eli Marrero. No seriously, you’re right, there wasn’t really anyone available in the OF worth much. With that saying, it was a very short-sighted signing, without much thought on how it would affect the future of this ballclub.

"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players." -Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

by propheteer on Feb 24, 2010 4:43 PM CST up reply actions  

BINGO!!!

The Tribune was going bankrupt, being sold, and could care less what the future looked like. It was 2006-2009 or BUST.

Take a guess on which of those happened.

by bdlugz on Feb 24, 2010 8:41 PM CST up reply actions  

8 years was rediculously excessive

I understand the moment, and win now or bust attitude, but almost everyone could foresee the ramifications of such a long deal on an older player who’s injury-prone. I suppose fans can take solice in the fact that they “went for it.”

"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players." -Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

by propheteer on Feb 24, 2010 9:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Totally agree with you

But while Tribune fits into the “everyone could foresee the ramifications of such a long deal,” they simply laughed knowing they’d be out from under the deal LONG before it was ended.

Yes, they went for it – probably not in the best possible situation, but at least we had a few playoff runs!

by bdlugz on Feb 24, 2010 11:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Not sure about playoff runs

but there were certainly playoffs!

"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players." -Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

by propheteer on Feb 24, 2010 11:59 PM CST up reply actions  

We had 6 playoff "chances" since the Tribune took over.

That is, if not the most effective, certainly near the most effecitve in terms of playoff years.

Runs… yes… maybe one, I see where you;’e going there.

by bdlugz on Feb 25, 2010 12:02 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

the 2000s were definitely the most successful decade for the Cubs in quite some time, way before we were born. I give JH a ton of credit for the ‘03 run cause there weren’t many stand-outs on that club besides Prior, Wood, Lofton, and Aram.

"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players." -Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

by propheteer on Feb 25, 2010 9:57 AM CST up reply actions  

They didn't dump Bradley

they just traded headaches with the Mariners. Silva will suck big time and be as much a clubhouse cancer as Bradley ever was. meanwhile Bradley might just fit in Seattle. Wakamatsu may be able to get a decent year or two out of him and the press in Seattle isn’t as toxic as the Chicago lynch mob and no one in the stands will toss off a racist remark because they’d get tossed so fast it would make a knuckler spin rather than float.

Baseball is too much of a sport to be a business and too much of a business to be a sport.
William Wrigley Jr

by bubbamike the one and only on Feb 23, 2010 1:50 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't think Silva will be anywhere near...

…the “clubhouse cancer” that Bradley may or may not have been. A big part of the problem with Bradley was the media attention he attracted because of his reputation and the expectations heaped upon him. Silva’s reputation is far from stellar, but it’s nowhere near Bradley’s legendary status. And no one in his or her right mind is expecting anything out of Silva besides a few odd spot starts and some mop-up work.

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by daver on Feb 23, 2010 11:42 AM CST up reply actions  

I agree, however

I don’t think Silva will be doing much mop-up work. I smell the 60-day DL coming. Has everyone heard of David Patton?

by TheGrinch13 on Feb 26, 2010 7:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, Patton was a Rule 5 guy...

…so that’s a little different. I would use Jon Lieber in ‘08 as to what will probably happen to Silva. He’ll get a couple early season starts, throw some mop-up and, agreed, wind up on the DL.

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by daver on Mar 1, 2010 12:06 PM CST up reply actions  

That is a lot like claiming Lady Gaga is the greatest musician in history because she got the most radio plays in 2009.

Just because its here, in your face, today, doesn’t mean it has an extra weight historically over all the other bad signings this club and its 100+ year history have under their belt.

And the contract isn’t even half way over!

It might end up being the worst. He might also get healthy, move to first, and put up another few productive years.

Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Feb 22, 2010 4:00 PM CST up reply actions  

this is a pretty common debate around here ...

Can you judge a contract before it’s done? I’d say you can halfway through it, in most cases, and even earlier in others.

Carlos Silva is only halfway through his contract, but there’s no way that deal will ever look good.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 4:03 PM CST up reply actions  

how many angels dance on the head of a pin?

you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT

by Emelie on Feb 22, 2010 6:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow

That brought back memories. Good old TMBG.

"You’re playing a baseball game. You’re not playing Tiddlywinks. There is competition, for God’s sake."— Lou Piniella

by PacificCub on Feb 23, 2010 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

so the debate is pointless?

That’s what you’re saying? Because it’s not like most of the debates around here will actually change anything?

The point is to have the discussion ON A DISCUSSION BOARD.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 8:49 PM CST up reply actions  

you are taking me way too seriously

I’m riffing on the nature of the debate, not on the debate itself ;-)

Discuss away!

you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT

by Emelie on Feb 22, 2010 9:06 PM CST up reply actions  

yer always good with me

you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT

by Emelie on Feb 22, 2010 9:10 PM CST up reply actions  

aww

that’s nice. Thanks, Emelie.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 9:11 PM CST up reply actions  

No, that would be Milton Bradley

And getting rid of Kerry Wood and Mark DeRosa to get him.

by TheGrinch13 on Feb 26, 2010 7:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Could be nothing, could be just the beginning

This is not good news. I’m hoping for the best, but 5 months after a debridement seems like an awfully long time especially since he’s been known to be a “quick healer” whatever that means.

by jerry morales rules on Feb 22, 2010 3:43 PM CST reply actions  

I don't even know what that means

But I remember that being said about some of his prior injuries.

“He’s already predicting it won’t be that long and he is a very fast healer,” Hendry said. “But he has a very high threshold of pain so our first inclination last night that it was bad.”

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3439869

by jerry morales rules on Feb 22, 2010 3:46 PM CST up reply actions  

If he played last year

with a torn meniscus then yes he has a high threshold for pain. Just think if your knee screamed at you every time you twisted it.

Oh never mind, may you never have knee or hip problems.

Baseball is too much of a sport to be a business and too much of a business to be a sport.
William Wrigley Jr

by bubbamike the one and only on Feb 23, 2010 1:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Well,

It is never good, I guess, when someone isn’t 100%. However, look at the contrasting ways ESPN and CBSN delivered the news. One made it sound bad, the other actually sounded optimistic.

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Feb 22, 2010 3:50 PM CST up reply actions  

You're right

I didn’t read the other take on it and that does make it sound much better.

I am concerned that when the surgery was performed, they said he’d be ready by “spring”. Now, that’s not a finite date, but it certainly means before Opening Day. I would have assumed at the time that they meant by spring training. If he’s good to go by Opening Day, that’s great.

But, this feels like it’s a longer recovery time that what they had thought originally. That just makes me a bit worried.

by jerry morales rules on Feb 22, 2010 4:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Feb 22, 2010 4:28 PM CST up reply actions  

He most like *is* ready

think of it this way. His knee is like a new car…he needs a “break in” period with his surgically repaired knee before he takes it all the way up to full speed.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 7:29 PM CST up reply actions  

and hopefully

the knee isn’t Toyota and he crashes into the wall again

"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman

by BucknerKongCardenal on Feb 22, 2010 7:49 PM CST up reply actions  

He's like 40 years old

He’ll be 75% for the rest of his days.

"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players." -Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

by propheteer on Feb 22, 2010 4:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm 41

If I’m at 75% I consider that an outstanding day!

by jerry morales rules on Feb 22, 2010 4:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Nice!

I’m 38, and wake up with a chronic lower back ache everyday.

"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players." -Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

by propheteer on Feb 22, 2010 5:00 PM CST up reply actions  

have you ever had chronic lower back pain

on weed?

"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman

by BucknerKongCardenal on Feb 22, 2010 7:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Unfortunately, yes.

It doesn’t help much, but working out does. I’m going to try an acupuncturist next.

"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players." -Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

by propheteer on Feb 22, 2010 8:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Wait, who is?

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by daver on Feb 23, 2010 11:43 AM CST up reply actions  

Somebody get that trick to 100%!

Does this mean Sori still thinks he is a basestealer, or just running in general?

"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon

by Cubbiegoon on Feb 22, 2010 3:44 PM CST reply actions  

I'd guess in general.

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by daver on Feb 22, 2010 3:55 PM CST up reply actions  

This is just the start of it

He’s the MLB’s version of Tommie Harris, but worse cause he’s in his mid-thirties. So, will his bad health help him have the “rebound” year everyone thinks the Cubs will need to contend?

"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players." -Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

by propheteer on Feb 22, 2010 4:15 PM CST reply actions  

I don't think "everyone" thinks a Soriano rebound is needed

A healthy Ramirez and a resurgent Soto combined with consistent performances from Lee, Theriot, Fukudome and Byrd should be enough.

Anyway, if Soriano can’t cut it, the Cubs have Nady, too.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 4:17 PM CST up reply actions  

That's a key, too.

… and one of the reasons I think Hendry had a good offseason. The Cubs have MUCH better depth than they did at this time a year ago.

Chad Tracy can play outfield, too.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 22, 2010 4:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Chad Tracy

in no outfielder, Al. You are 100% wrong about this.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 7:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe not.

But he has played major league games there before.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 22, 2010 8:40 PM CST up reply actions  

417 innings

Posted a slightly below average range factor.

"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver

by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 22, 2010 8:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Tracy played all of his games in the OF

in 2005, when the D’Backs were coming off a season where they lost 111 games and were desperately scrambling to find answers. There is a good reason why Tracy has not played in the OF since.

It’s because that one year provided plenty of evidence that he was not well suited to play the OF.

I am a big Chad Tracy fan, and I think he may surprise some Cubs fans this year. But, if he does, it won’t be as an outfielder.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 9:08 PM CST up reply actions  

so he's going to what? Supplant Lee at first base?

I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers

by Nunyabidness on Feb 23, 2010 8:02 PM CST up reply actions  

No, but Tracy CAN play OF, 3B, 1B, etc

Which makes him a very valuable asset to this team.

by bdlugz on Feb 24, 2010 8:42 PM CST up reply actions  

so has Jeff Baker

But you’ve been dead set against him playing the OF.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 8:46 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

so has Sean Marshall

"The Cubs are due in sixty-two." - #14

by BatCubFan on Feb 23, 2010 10:33 AM CST up reply actions  

don't go all

small sample size on us…

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Feb 23, 2010 10:59 AM CST up reply actions  

I did like the Nady pickup

quite a bit, especially if his arm recovers. Tracy could make a contribution as well with his aptitude to play several positions.

"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players." -Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

by propheteer on Feb 22, 2010 5:04 PM CST up reply actions  

After 80 comments...

have a look at cubs.com’s article about this:

The Cubs’ medical staff advised Soriano to not run full tilt this winter to avoid any setbacks.

“We’ll see in one week when I test my knee running in the field,” Soriano said. “My knee will tell me how I feel.”

What will likely be the hardest part of Soriano’s rehab will be the mental part. He has to trust that his leg is healthy.

“I say in my mind I’m 80 percent but that’s because I’m not doing anything like playing in the field,” he said. “When I test it, I hope my knee feels better than I think. I think it’s 85 percent. Maybe when I test it, it’s 100 percent.”

“He’s ready to go,” Cubs manager Lou Piniella said of the left fielder. “He says his knee hasn’t bothered him.”

Sounds like a lot of angst posted here about what’s basically not much to worry about.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 22, 2010 4:33 PM CST reply actions  

that's kind of a big assumption, IMO

Our $18 million left fielder, coming off a terrible, injury-plagued year, is not 100 percent coming into spring training — and won’t run on the field for the first week.

I think this is definitely something to worry about, Al.

And, anyway, what’s Lou going to say?

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 4:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Read it again.

He doesn’t know whether he’s 100% because he hasn’t tested it on orders from the Cubs medical staff.

I don’t have a problem with that.

I think his reference to “one week” is probably to the first ST game, not that he’s not going to run at all.

We really need a game. Instead, we spend our time picking apart everything that’s reported.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 22, 2010 4:42 PM CST up reply actions  

wait ...

Is the first ST game in a week? I’m not sure that’s what he’s saying.

Agreed, on your final point.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 4:46 PM CST up reply actions  

A week from Thursday is the first game.

That’s how I read it.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 22, 2010 5:58 PM CST up reply actions  

and he's saying he thinks he's 85%

Maybe he’s simply nervous, or maybe he’s feeling something he still doesn’t want to admit because he desperately wants to be okay.

I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers

by Nunyabidness on Feb 23, 2010 8:06 PM CST up reply actions  

I think it's 85% physical (healthy) 15% mental (unsure)

Time will heal that, but the mental part may not be all there by April.

by bdlugz on Feb 24, 2010 8:42 PM CST up reply actions  

good

Only thing I’d be worried about is this is a biased article written by Cubs.com to make it seem everything’s ok. It does give me some relief to have that quote from Lou though..

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 22, 2010 7:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Honestly, the absolute last guy I would listen to on this is Lou

he appeared to think Soriano was perfectly healthy when everyone else in the state of Ilinois knew the opposite to be true. Lou is very busy pumping a lot of sunshine about this club so far. My angst will fade when Soriano has ACTUALLY tested it.

I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers

by Nunyabidness on Feb 23, 2010 8:05 PM CST up reply actions  

i doubt lou would say that hes fine

without being cleared by the medical braintrust, if he was lying the media and fans would eat him alive

by jesus christos on Feb 23, 2010 8:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, he's already done it once

I don’t think Lou really gives a good goddamn what the press and the fans say or do. In a competent manager that’s a good thing. When you have a senile moron at the helm however…………………..

I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers

by Nunyabidness on Feb 23, 2010 8:26 PM CST up reply actions  

then you should step down.

Baseball is too much of a sport to be a business and too much of a business to be a sport.
William Wrigley Jr

by bubbamike the one and only on Feb 24, 2010 1:40 AM CST up reply actions  

I think after reading everything here

We’re as clueless as we have been the whole off season on what to expect. Could really swing either way. A month and some change of stretching it out could only strengthen it.

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Feb 22, 2010 4:33 PM CST reply actions  

Don't Panic!!!!!

Yikes, ya’ll worry too much. If the guy needs more time to heal so be it. It ain’t like the season starts tomorrow. He was told to rest the knee so he did. Time will tell.

by matt_g3 on Feb 22, 2010 5:10 PM CST reply actions  

I wish

He was still hurt. I’d much rather have Nady (as long as he can throw) out there every day. If a pitcher knows how to throw a breaking ball away, he knows how to strike out Soriano. I predict that all his K’s and terrible defense will eventually lead to him being booed so mercilessly that we will have to trade him in yet another (Sosa, Bradley) no win situation. Sorry I know as a Cubs fan I’m supposed to be optimistic but I just see no way that things possibly end well with this guys.

by JJDiesel21 on Feb 22, 2010 5:33 PM CST reply actions  

I wish

there was a way to give wedgies over tcp/ip.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 22, 2010 6:06 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

HA!

and yeah.

you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT

by Emelie on Feb 22, 2010 6:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Im not sure

what tcp/ip means or if your saying you want to give me a wedgie but im pretty sure youd end up with wooden arms and legs too.

Its not like Im not going to root for Soriano to do well but he was a terrible signing. He does nothing well with consistency. And the whole argument that he helped us win 2 division titles isnt that great. IMO we would have won the division with Theriot or Kosuke(last year) in the leadoff spot and Carlos Lee in left and batting in the middle of the lineup. But who knows, maybe the 6 hole will rejuvenate him. Heres hoping.

by JJDiesel21 on Feb 22, 2010 11:20 PM CST up reply actions  

what tcp/ip means

internet

by jesus christos on Feb 23, 2010 5:01 PM CST up reply actions  

SWL: You should read this...

RFC 4264, BGP Wedgies


"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze

by eths on Feb 23, 2010 4:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Well done sir.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 23, 2010 10:47 AM CST up reply actions  

I must be

Even dumber than I thought I was. Any chance you could sum up what your trying to say in laymans terms?

by JJDiesel21 on Feb 23, 2010 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

The worst part about this is...

…Sori got hurt busting his ass trying to catch a pop fly down the line. How often does that happen?!

"Pounding sand since 1982...."

by cubswynn on Feb 22, 2010 5:34 PM CST reply actions  

Soriano

Signing Soriano was not a mistake in itself. We gave him too much money.

As faras him having leadoff for the time he’s been here he wasn’t a good leadoff hitter but he was our best option.

Because Fox Entertainment has been posessed by Cheese Smokie Monsters Bones returns in April so B&B have to wait.

by puckishcubsfan on Feb 22, 2010 5:53 PM CST reply actions  

Yeesh, talk about gloom and doom...

In no way does he say that he’s hurt. In no way does that article say that he’s hurt.

What are you talking about?

by kanderber on Feb 22, 2010 6:06 PM CST reply actions  

Something is amiss here

Per the usual, we’re not getting the whole story here. As an athlete that has had two knee scopes, I can attest that Soriano should have been at full strength months ago. A person who doesn’t make his living as a professional athlete would have been. A person with access to the best rehabilitation equipment and personnel anywhere, should have been fully rehabilitated in very short order.

The only thing that makes sense here is if the procedure was not a “cleanup” procedure but was much more extensive….say like microfracture surgery. If that is the case, I wouldn’t expect him to be close to full strength at the beginning of camp. However, if the procedure was indeed a mere cleanup, he should have been just fine a long time ago.

Additionally, absent a major procedure, I also can’t believe a professional athlete would want to start testing out his recovery progress during the first part of spring. That time of year is for getting your timing back and getting your body in shape, not testing out a surgical repair that was conducted months ago. Stregthening his knee without running, as has been suggested, is complete and utter nonsense….absent a much larger problem to begin with of course.

To me, the whole issue with his knee was an excuse in 2009 and is setting up to be already in 2010. Unless of course there is something much more significant going on than we’ve been led to believe. Only then will I eliminate any doubt to 2010 being more of what was seen in 2009 from No. 12.

Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?

by krummy12 on Feb 22, 2010 6:43 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

See above

about the “mental” part of the rehab process. This is especially true of someone who tried to play for an extended period of time on a knee with a torn meniscus. I know, it happened to me. The knee may be, and likely is, fine. He just needs to take some time to retrain his thought process to understand that he can now “turn it loose” without experiencing the pain he felt before the surgery. It’s something you really can’t simulate during the rehab period. You have to be able to go full out without even thinking subconsciously about how you are doing physically.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 7:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Nonsense

Perhaps it is different for everyone but I’ve done exactly that…twice. Post surgery, there should be absolutely no lingering issues. If there are and they take over six months to fade, then you’ve got a bigger problem on your hands with this guy than his physical health.

Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?

by krummy12 on Feb 22, 2010 9:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Completely agree...

…after a scope, you should be running 100% after 4-6 weeks.

Since it has been almost 6 months, it tells me Soriano hasn’t exactly been pushing it too much.

Hell, there are guys now who come back from a complete ACL reconstruction in 6 months.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:20 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

the best reason for hope ...

is that Soriano’s statements today might not have been clear because of the language barrier, and that he isn’t 100 percent because he hasn’t pushed himself — NOT because he actually isn’t healed.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 9:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I know...

…but it bugs the shit out of me this guy hasn’t attempted to run at 100% after a minor scope and 6 months post.

That ain’t right!!

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:23 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I'll tell you what

you go get your knee scoped, and 6 months later we’ll put you thru a full slate of agility drills. If you can perform them with no hesitation and at 100%, then you can shoot off your mouth.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 9:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Let's just say....

….we strongly disagree on this one.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:32 PM CST up reply actions  

We can say that

and we can also say that my opinion about this is based on personal experience and the experiences of a lot of other athletes I have worked with in the past.

What is yours based on?

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 9:35 PM CST up reply actions  

I worked in the Sports medicine...

…field for 11 years with a company that provided coverage for many professional teams (NHL, NBA, MLB and golf). My company worked very close with the Cub’s, Hawks and Bulls team docs locally in Chicago and we rehabed many of the Cub players under their direction.

I also took a few trips with a former Cub’s trainer to Birmingham to visit with Dr. Andrews in regards to the status of Cub’s players he has seen.

Today, I am still friends with several sports medicine docs and talk with them quite often.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:46 PM CST up reply actions  

OK

If that experience tells you that something is wrong is a player 6 months out from a arthroscopic knee surgery is not going at 100%, then I am sorry, but you are not paying attention.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 9:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Ok then.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Sorry azjazzman, but this is a fail

You asked MPH73 for his credentials and you got them. And IMO they are pretty impressive credentials yet you summarily dismiss them anyway. Apparently your mind is made up, regardless of what information is presented. Which seems out of character with your usual online m.o.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 22, 2010 10:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Not at all

I seemed to remember MPH73 mentioning his background awhile back on an injury related thread and having him repeat it here certainly gives weight to his argument. Not that I wasn’t taking it seriously anyway.

I am always open to someone else’s experiences…even when they are different from my own. I think where we have found common ground here is the agreement that not all scopes are the same and therefore not all rehabs are the same. I may have not said it before, but I do agree that 6 months normally is long enough for total recovery.

Really, the only part I take issue with is the implication that somehow Soriano is dogging it or that he is somehow not on track with his return to full participation. I have seen enough of this to know you have to give some leeway for the mind to catch up with the body.

There is no way to know. The things Soriano said in this article are consistent with what I have heard other athletes in this stage of rehab say. To think that there is something wrong or that something is being hidden, is imo, over-reaction.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 10:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Now that's the azjazzman I know...

I would hope that anyone with more than a cursory knowledge of knee injuries would agree with most, if not all of what you’ve said here. I only differ on your last sentence – I do think there is something wrong and I don’t think I’m over-reacting. We’ll just have to wait and see what happens in ST.

What struck me odd in your previous comment is when you said MPH must not have been paying attention.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 22, 2010 10:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, I'll grant you

this is a “hot button” topic for me. We all have them. Bring up Gregg Maddux or Sam Fuld and doggiestalker is bound to chime in. Bring up season tickets and Al is bound to chime in. Bring up Spring Training in Mesa, or knee injuries, and I’m likely to butt into the conversation.

I truly believe that a knee injury changed my life. I couldn’t do things after I had knee surgery that I did effortlessly before. Of course, these kind of operations are much different now then they were back then.

But, I think because of my experiences, I think when I was coaching, I tended to gravitate towards athletes that were struggling with their rehab from knee surgery. I was a shoulder for them to cry on as they emotionally dealt with the changes the surgery wrought on their bodies. And I am not exaggerating.

I didn’t mean to be dismissive of MPH73, although I can see now that is how I came off. What I meant when I said he must not have been paying attention, I meant paying attention to the athletes he must have been around in sports medicine. It is a wrenching experience for an elite athlete when his body betrays him for the first time. It’s really, really hard for many to deal with.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 11:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I was a shoulder for them to cry on as they emotionally dealt with the changes the surgery wrought on their bodies. And I am not exaggerating.

There is nothing more depressing (at least to me) than not being able to do the things the were so simple to do years, months, weeks, days ago. Having spine issues so bad that I couldn’t feel my left leg a few years back was INCREDIBLY depressing and difficult. When I actually COULD feel my leg, it hurt so badly that I was usually doubled over in pain and sleep was not an option. Work was near impossible (both mentally and physically), sports was out of the question.

I thought an injured shoulder that ended my baseball career was bad, but this was terrible. 6 months of physical therapy did NOTHING. Drugs did NOTHING. About 9 months later I made a strange movement while driving and POP, the pain was gone. One of the most liberating days of my life.

Of course, I find it depressing that diving for a ball hurts SOOO much now… the bigger they are, I suppose…

"You’re playing a baseball game. You’re not playing Tiddlywinks. There is competition, for God’s sake."— Lou Piniella

by PacificCub on Feb 23, 2010 2:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Here is why

You mention that you couldn’t do things post-op that you could pre-op. I have already indicated that as a former athlete with a series of knee issues, I couldn’t agree more. However, if we’re talking about a meniscus repair, which I believe has been indicated as Soriano’s operation, the part about not being able to do things is entirely physical and not mental.

Once you remove any part of the meniscus, the knee loses some of its joint cushion and movements tend to be more painful and difficult. I hate to generalize but ask a majority of orthopedic docs that treat sports-related injuries and they will tell you almost to a man that an ACL is much easier on the athlete than a meniscus tear despite the longer rehab and “fear factor” built into the injury.

While there are certain steps an athlete can take to replicate that lost cushion of the meniscus, including microfracture surgery, for the most part, once it’s gone, it’s gone.

Thus, getting back to Soriano, again, I believe either there was either a much more significant procedure done than a scope, that his rehabilitation went much less well than is being let on, or more likely, the loss of meniscus in his knee is going to do nothing but hasten his downward spiral toward oblivion.

His days of running well are more likely over. If he can’t properly plant his front side as he may have done in the past because of his knee issue, you may as well call his career as a difference maker long over.

Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?

by krummy12 on Feb 23, 2010 2:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Using his knee to plant his front side...

… is a different use than baserunning. I agree, his career as a basestealer is probably over. At his age, it was probably going to be anyway.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 23, 2010 3:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Yet

there are many, many examples of athletes that actually performed better after a ‘scope than they did before. In fact, with today’s procedures the norm is something close to 100% recovery.

by azjazzman on Feb 23, 2010 9:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I understand

Soriano is just, well, a weird dude. He does SO many inexplicable things … but SOMETIMES they turn out inexplicably well.

I’m hoping that Soriano took it easy/let his legs heal this offseason and that he’s actually fully healed — just not fully tested. But, really, who the hell knows?

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 9:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Please

“come back” is a meaningless phrase. Nobody is 100% after 6 months from an ACL reconstruction. NOBODY. They may be playing at that point, but you can rest assured they are not 100%. Hell, many of them are never 100% again.

You guys don’t know what the hell you are talking about.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 9:24 PM CST up reply actions  

I didn't say guys...

…were 100% 6 months after an ACL reconstruction, but some are playing at that point.

Adam Burish of the Hawks is slated to return (in march) after an ACL reconstruction he had in October, and Soriano can’t be 100% 6 months post of a scope?

How long did it take Lilly to come back from his scope this past year on his knee? I think it was about 4 weeks, if I’m not mistaken.

Again, Soriano should have been able to run 100% by now (in fact long before now) with the procedure he had.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:29 PM CST up reply actions  

A pitcher coming back from a scope

is a whole different deal from a outfielder. There is no comparison there at all. As far as semantics is concerned, Soriano DID “come back” from his ’scope. He is just pointing out that he is taking it slowly and not pushing it at this point. That is not only normal, but sensible as well. Frankly, I would be concerned if he was doing it any differently.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 9:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Really...

…Lilly had his “push off” knee scoped and he was back in 4 weeks.

We have clearly had completely different experiences in the sports medicine world, we’ll leave it there.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:38 PM CST up reply actions  

See this is where it is obvious

that you really don’t get this at all.

An action like ’pushing off" for a pitcher is exactly the type of thing I was referring to when I said there are athletic moves you can make with a torn meniscus with no pain whatsoever. It is the twisting motion that is the problem, and it is absolutely true that Lilly would have had more difficulty if the knee injury was to the leg that he lands on, as that would also be a source of pain.

And one other thing…not all scopes are the same. Sometimes they trim the meniscus, sometimes they just smooth the rough edges, sometimes they remove a sizable chunk of it and sometimes they remove it altogether. So, there is no single “norm” for a rehab or to the extent of time needed to return to 100%.

If your experience in the sports medicine world contradicts that basic fact, I would love to hear about it.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 9:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Your correct...

…all scopes are not the same and neither are the players that get them.

If I recall, Soriano’s was a fairly minor clean up and did not reveal any damage that was a surprise during the procedure.

All in all, unless the doc screwed up the procedure (which I highly doubt, and Soriano admits he has no pain), the other limiting factor would be the players desire to get himself ready in a reasonable amount of time.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Not necessarily

one of the things I recall being mentioned at the time was Soriano saying he had never experienced a significant injury before this, and that would tend to contribute to the “mental hurdle” I referred to before. That is something I experienced myself and every other athlete I have been around that had this injury also experienced to one degree or another. It doesn’t mean there is anything wrong or that the athlete isn’t trying.

Even the cubs.com article cited above mentions the mental part of it, which is just as real as the physical part.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 9:54 PM CST up reply actions  

So are a batters...

weight transition between a swing, rotation in the legs and hips to generate power and bat speed, ability to run and turn at sharp angles, the ability to get a good jump while on base, the ability to make fast breaks on balls they are fielding, throwing motions, etc. I can go on and on, but you can’t say it’s far worse for a pitcher.

by bdlugz on Feb 23, 2010 11:00 AM CST up reply actions  

Nonsense yourself

I not only had two such injuries myself, I have also aided in the rehab of many other players with this particular injury.

Not a single one of them had a linear rehab. Every single one had good days and bad days. If you had no lingering issues, post surgery, good for you. But, that is most assuredly not the norm.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 9:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Just out of curiosity

what sport were you playing and at what level?

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 9:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Irrelevant

While it’s irrelevant, since you asked, I was a scholarship athlete at a Division I baesball program.

Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?

by krummy12 on Feb 23, 2010 2:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Amend

…which believe it or not understood that I could spell correctly when I wanted.

Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?

by krummy12 on Feb 23, 2010 2:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Given that we're talking about Soriano...

…your constant references to the “mental” part of the rehab process are not helping the situation here. ;-)

And having had three knee surgeries myself, I too have some insight into the whole injury/surgery/rehab process. Enough to know that there are many factors at play here and many possible scenarios. While what you’ve painted is indeed plausible, it is by no means the only scenario that fits the situation – and the others are not nearly as optimistic as yours.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 22, 2010 9:49 PM CST up reply actions  

But

let me ask you this. When you were rehabbing your knee injuries, was it in the context of being an athlete playing at the highest level of professional sport? Unless the amswer is yes, I respectfully submit that we are talking apples and oranges.

P.S. – I’m not sure chasing down home run balls qualifies.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 9:56 PM CST up reply actions  

of course we're talking apples and oranges...

and unless your real name is Alfonso Soriano, the apples and oranges part applies to you as well.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 22, 2010 10:04 PM CST up reply actions  

True enough

which is exactly my point. Cut the guy some slack. Just because you or your grandfather had a knee scoped and were back playing volleyball in the park 3 weeks later…don’t try to convince me that there is something horrible wrong if the guy is taking it slowly in ST with his knee. You have no way of knowing what he is feeling, or for that matter, what it was like for him trying to play on it most of last year.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 10:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Xavier Nady

Like I said at the time, Jim Hendry signed Xavier Nady more as Guess Hitting Hack insurance versus Kosuke Fukudome platoon mate.

Soriano sucks. It’s going to be five more years of this b.s. too. Don’t fall for this crap that his knee was the reason he sucked in 2009. That’s a copout that he wants the kool-aid drinkers to believe.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Feb 22, 2010 7:12 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

yeah
Xavier Nady

its so.. simple

by jesus christos on Feb 22, 2010 8:08 PM CST up reply actions  

how bout that game last night

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 22, 2010 8:14 PM CST up reply actions  

I hate to be the one to tell you this but I dont think even the Kool-Aide drinkers (like me) want this Soriano issue

if there was a way to resolve this I am all for it….got any ideas?

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 22, 2010 7:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Have I heard this before?

Yes, I believe I have.

Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 22, 2010 7:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Ohh no you di'int

I’m all behind Soriano.

"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver

by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 22, 2010 8:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Did someone say "kool-aid"?

Cubbie kool aid

Follow me on Twitter here and catch my twice-weekly Cubs news updates here.

by daver on Feb 23, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Look at the brightside

its not like Sori really needed to spend the offseason working on his fielding.

"Anyone on our team that thinks we are cursed will be moved to a lesser-cursed team"
-Tom Ricketts

by WiscoCubs on Feb 22, 2010 7:17 PM CST reply actions  

Or like he was going to anyway...

"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver

by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 22, 2010 8:47 PM CST up reply actions  

I hope he practiced his hopping

I mean, isn’t that an important part of his “fielding”?

The 2010 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp ruled!!!!

by VegasCubFan on Feb 23, 2010 9:47 AM CST up reply actions  

It's so odd. I mean, "unique".

If a high schooler did that, he’d be on the bench until the coaches taught him how to play OF.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 10:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Put Soriano on the ST DL

Test the knee next week? Take a couple weeks, buddy. Not like the Cubs are gonna win the division in March. He blows the knee out, though, and BLou will have us down to 66 wins.

"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman

by BucknerKongCardenal on Feb 22, 2010 8:06 PM CST reply actions  

I think 66 wins will be optimistic for BLou if that happens.

Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 22, 2010 8:08 PM CST up reply actions  

losing soriano

would obviously give us another 50 wins

by jesus christos on Feb 22, 2010 8:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh, he'd probably have us finishing last in the league

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Feb 22, 2010 8:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Wait, doesn't he have us there already?

Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 22, 2010 9:45 PM CST up reply actions  

But if BLou thinks he's so bad

It wouldn’t really affect the Cubs much, would it. But according to him it would of course.

"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver

by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 22, 2010 8:48 PM CST up reply actions  

This is a sub .500 ballclub

My opinion in this regard is further reinforced with each passing day. I didn’t count on Soriano doing much in 2010 to begin with, so no this latest proclamation on his health status doesn’t alter things much. Soriano has taken a page from Carlos Zambrano and decided to become a drama queen and a sideshow all rolled into one. I don’t debate that Soriano has had a knee issue, but I definitely do believe the knee injury is way overblown and had very little to do with Soriano’s wretched 2009 season.

This is a man whose baseball career is in severe and dramatic decline. If not for the assinine contract he would have a hard time finding major league work. You can laugh at that statement all you want. But it is the truth.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Feb 22, 2010 8:55 PM CST reply actions  

If I had to make a season won-loss prediction right now?

72 – 90

Yep. The pitching staff shapes up to be stinking awful. Maybe that prognosis changes as spring training unfolds, but from where I sit right now I just don’t see it.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Feb 22, 2010 8:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Where do you get your information?

Can you give me the winning lottery numbers too?

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Feb 22, 2010 9:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I hate sticking up for Blou, but he clearly says its a PREDICTION.

You don’t have any gut feelings about how good the team is going to be?

I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers

by Nunyabidness on Feb 23, 2010 8:15 PM CST up reply actions  

That's feasable....

….if things don’t pan out, but so is 90-72 if a bunch of things do pan out.

I can’t ever recall a club that had so many ???? that could go either way. In reality, some will workout and some won’t, and they probably end up around .500.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:03 PM CST up reply actions  

dude ...

I’m not among the optimists on BCB, but this team will NOT lose 90 games.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 9:04 PM CST up reply actions  

That's what Mets fans

would have said at this time last year.

The truth is, mix in some injuries to key players, some others performing below expectations and some bad luck, virtually ANY team in baseball is capable of losing 90 games.

Look at it this way, the Cubs won 14 less games in 2009 than they did in 2008. If they lose 11 less games in 2010 than they did in 2009…you got 90 losses, dude.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 9:18 PM CST up reply actions  

OK, fair enough

But ST predictions usually aren’t predicated on the presumptions of injuries. And the Cubs had a TON of injuries last year, and still managed to win 83 games.

A lot would have to go off the rails for the Cubs to lose 90 games. A LOT.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 9:20 PM CST up reply actions  

But it happens all the time

every year there are a couple of teams that perform WAY below what they prognosticators have them pegged at before the season starts, and at least a couple perform way better. To say there is no way the Cubs lose 90 games is to ignore history.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 9:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Fine.

I would bet large sums of money that the Cubs will not lose 90 games.

But, yes, it is possible.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 9:32 PM CST up reply actions  

did you not read my previous post?

A lot would have to go off the rails for the Cubs to lose 90 games. A LOT.

That’s not saying there’s no chance, is it?

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 9:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't what "a lot going off the rails"

means to you, but my point is that whatever the scenario is that would result in the Cubs losing 90 games in 2010, it is not only not unprecedented, but it is almost a sure bet to happen to SOME team this year that noboby expected it to happen to.

Nobody on here thought the Cubs would be essentially a .500 ballclub last year, but that’s what they were.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 9:39 PM CST up reply actions  

whatever

There’s a very slim chance the Cubs will lose 90 games.

Satisfied?

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 9:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Or, it would just have to "remain off the rails."

I mean, there’s a decent chance that Soto and Soriano are going to be offensive black holes again. It’s not guaranteed, and it’s likely that they’ll be better than they were in 2009, but it’s by no means a certainty.

And we all know what Fukudome is by this point – he’s going to give you a good month at some point, and then he’s going to give you 2 or three months in which he is beyond useless and looks as bad as any player you have ever seen.

We are also hoping for a rebound from Fontenot, and/or for Baker to become an MLB starter for, really, the first time. And we’re hoping that Theriot can bounce back from a lousy 2009.

Put simply, there’s a decent chance that the Cubs could be below average offensively at left, center, right, short, second, and catcher – in some cases, dramatically below average. There’s certainly a ton of precedent for each of those players stinking up the joint for extended stretches.

Also, we’re replacing Rich Harden in the rotation (a guy who was arguably the best pitcher in the NL in the 2nd half of 2008), with someone TBD off the Gorzo-Silva-Marshall minor leaguer pu pu platter.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 10:41 AM CST up reply actions  

agreed re: "remain off the rails"

I’m not quite as pessimistic because I a) don’t think Harden would be 2008 Harden again — and he certainly wasn’t last year; b) I don’t expect Ramirez to miss as much time as he did in 2009 and c) I expect one of Soriano and Soto to bounce back.

Also, I expect a better year from Z and see Marmol as a big upgrade over Gregg.

Could everything, or most things, go wrong? Well, sure. But I doubt that will happen.

by elgato on Feb 23, 2010 11:01 AM CST up reply actions  

In a couple of years, the Dome and Bradley deals will be gone

That is when the team can move into its next phase. Hopefully, they’ll grab at least one elite player this time, instead of a bunch of eight-figure mediocrities.

Of course, the Soriano deal is just going to hang around forever. I still can’t believe that Hendry thought he could play CF.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 11:07 AM CST up reply actions  

I think he thought Sori could play the position for one year ...

until Pie was ready.

Given the contract glut of this season, the Cubs don’t have a lot of choices/flexibility. I think there’s just enough gas left in this nucleus’ tank for a run — and the team can upgrade through the season, too.

The sun is definitely setting on this group. I’m willing to be optimistic that a team that won 83 games — despite myriad problems — can make a 5 to 10 game improvement.

by elgato on Feb 23, 2010 11:12 AM CST up reply actions  

Sure, no reason to tear it up in order to rebuild.

With the Cubs’ resources, they should be able to handle their rebuilding projects WHILE competing for championships, infusing the young guys into the system in a seamless transition. They just never seem to figure that out, and they wind up doing things like trading away all of their youth for middle relievers.

(I just like to remember those sunsetting deals when things look really dark for the team.)

I agree that they have to keep trying to make at least one more run with this group of guys – and I certainly think that this team CAN contend.

I’m just a bit less optimistic than you – I see them finishing right where they were last year. There was a whole lot that went wrong with last year’s squad, but there was also a whole lot that went RIGHT. Some aspects of the team will improve, others will regress.

But when there are zero elite players on a $140MM roster, serious question marks at 6 of 8 positions, and no earthly clue who will be the #5 starter (or even the #4 starter for the time being), I have a lot of cognitive dissonance in saying “this team is sure to do better than 83 wins.” I’m not seeing it at all.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

really good point:

“There was a whole lot that went wrong with last year’s squad, but there was also a whole lot that went RIGHT. "

There are two guys whom I consider most likely to fall short of their 2009 seasons — Derrek Lee and Randy Wells.

Fortunately, a down year for Lee won’t likely come close to Soto or Soriano’s down 2009s. Wells is anybody’s guess.

by elgato on Feb 23, 2010 12:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Wait, isn't the Bradley deal already gone?

I thought the Cubs got money back for Milton?

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by daver on Feb 23, 2010 11:59 AM CST up reply actions  

No, we still owe all that money, less $6M.

We had about $20MM left on the Bradley deal – the M’s had about $20MM left on the Silva deal.

Because Silva is so unfathomably bad, while Milton has some level of MLB talent, the M’s were willing to swap $20MM obligations with us, and even toss in $6MM.

We basically used that $6MM to sign Marlon Byrd, Milton’s replacement in the lineup. Silva probably doesn’t factor into our plans, but he’s still got to get his $10MM in 2010 and 2011.

So the Cubs still have that unforgiveable “Bradley Expense” in 2010 and 2011 – they’re just paying it to Carlos Silva and Marlon Byrd now.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 12:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh, right.

Thanks – I fooled myself into thinking something else.

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by daver on Feb 23, 2010 1:50 PM CST up reply actions  

lol

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Feb 23, 2010 4:19 PM CST up reply actions  

that's where you and I differ greatly.

We have no idea what kind of hitter Soto really is. Is he the guy he was in his rookie year, or something closer to last season. Granted he lost a ton of weight, but is that going to translate into better numbers? Maybe, maybe not. We haven’t seen enough of him to know. Soriano has been injury prone since coming to Chicago. Either last year was the beginning of Soriano’s decline or just on off year. We don’t know yet.

The pitching staff is full of question marks, including Randy Wells and who the hell is going to be our fifth starter? in my opinion, a lot has to go RIGHT for us to avoid a bad season. All we have to do is play like last year for a longer period of time to lose 90 games.

I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers

by Nunyabidness on Feb 23, 2010 8:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Very well said...

…and is loaded with reality.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 23, 2010 10:57 PM CST up reply actions  

We were tied for 1st August 1st.

We had an absolutely terrible year from Soriano, who should at least be able to put up respectable power numbers. We saw a strong regression from Soto (but you’re corrent, who knows who Soto really is), we had a phenominal year from Wells (but all his peripherals say that wont change… but let’s say it does regress). We also missed 80 games from Ramirez, we had a terribly out of shape Z, we had Dempster with severe family issues, etc.

Even if the good and the bad from last year course correct themselves, and we play half of a good season/half bad like last year, we’re still a .500 team.

I think everything from last year and more has to go wrong, and even then, 90 losses is pretty extreme.

by bdlugz on Feb 24, 2010 9:04 PM CST up reply actions  

If...

…Soriano doesn’t have a much better year, Ramirez has his loose shoulder pop out again, Z is Z, and Lilly has health problems, 90 loses is very reachable.

Now, if these things go right, they may end up winning 90 games if the rest of the crew does well.

The truth is, reality usually ends up somewhere in the middle.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 24, 2010 9:54 PM CST up reply actions  

so...

let’s say that ’08 was the pinnacle (97 wins) and ’09 was the low side (83 wins), the middle would be 90 wins, which I competely and totally agree with, and that is actually my prediction for the ’10 Cubs.

by bdlugz on Feb 24, 2010 11:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Harden is being replaced by Gorzellanny

I’m skittish about this year’s team… I’m not sure where the improvement is going to come from after Aramis Ramirez hopefully staying healthy. Soto and Soriano could go either way, and while Byrd should be able to match Bradley’s 2008 offensively, I’m not seeing the kind of dramatic improvement there that changes a teams’ fortunes around entirely.

The rotation will almost certainly be worse this year. The bullpen will probably be similar. The offense is likely to be somewhat improved, but it’s certainly possible that it will remain stagnant.

It’s a team and an organization in transition. They need another starting pitcher – frankly, a high-potential guy who the market undervalues for some reason or other…. like a Rich Harden.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 10:35 AM CST up reply actions  

disagree on the rotation and the bullpen

I expect Z and Dempster to pitch better, and I doubt Lilly will pitch worse than he did in 2009. Harden’s high ceiling was enticing, but his lack of durability doesn’t make me miss him much.

I also like the pen. Two drags on it are gone — Gregg and Heilman — while I like the idea of Marmol as the closer for the entire year. Guzman and Grabow are fine as late-inning setup, and I’m OK with the idea of the kids fighting for the last four spots — though I think signing Calero to a $1 million deal would make us all feel better.

by elgato on Feb 23, 2010 11:04 AM CST up reply actions  

Lilly's 2009 was by far the best season of his career.

I think that at age 34 and coming off an injury, it’s almost a certainty that he’s going to regress somewhat from that 145 ERA+. Even if he was in the best possible health, he’s likely to regress to a certain extent.

I mean, he was like 20% better than he’d ever been in a decade in MLB. You have to expect some regression.

Sure, Z and Dempster could be even better. But they were both relatively healthy, above-league-average performers. Even if they’re improved from 2009, they aren’t likely to be THAT improved.

The Cubs got 850 innings of pretty awesome pitching from their top 5 starters last year. I am not seeing where those 850 innings are going to come from this year, especially if Gorzo/Silva are prominently involved.

And Guzman is injured. And Grabow is…. not great. Losing Gregg and Heilman is awesome, as I’m sure that the Cubs have 2 guys in their system who can outperform them for the minimum salary.

That said, even hearing the name “Heilman” is like a stomach punch. Can you believe Hendry traded Pie in order to get that guy, and then traded him a year later for absolutely nothing, while scrambling to find a player capable of playing CF?

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 11:13 AM CST up reply actions  

Hendry's 2008-09 offseason was just awful. Enough said.

Interest points about Lilly. I guess the question is whether he’ll be as valuable making more starts even if he isn’t performing as well.

I’m not worried about the Guzman injury.

by elgato on Feb 23, 2010 11:16 AM CST up reply actions  

I know - I'm just happy that debate is finally settled.

It was an abject heresy to make that claim 12 months ago around here.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 12:08 PM CST up reply actions  

well, we did need to wait to see how things turned out

I wasn’t a fan of a lot of the moves. But I didn’t think they would blow up as badly as they did. I was actually optimistic about Gregg …

by elgato on Feb 23, 2010 12:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Z and Dempster being relatively healthy is debatable.

Z was clearly out of shape last year, and whether or not that affected his game is up for debate, but I believe we’ll see a much stronger year from Z. Do I think he’s going to turn himself into a cy young cantidate? not really, but I think we can expect a better overall line, and a better spirit in the clubhouse too.

Regarding Dempster, the guy found out his daughter has a terrible illness as the season started. He was flying back to Phoenix at every free moment to spend time with his family and had to compete against the best hitters in the world when he was mentally checked out. You can’t possibly blame him for not being there mentally, but I think you’ll see, now that the Dempters thankfully have a better understanding of what they are dealing with, a stronger year from him as well.

by bdlugz on Feb 23, 2010 11:21 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm only looking at the results.

I know that both guys had external issues last year, but at the end of the season, they both posted 30 starts or so of good production.

For instance, even if Dempster had no off-field issues, I’m not going to pencil him in for an ERA+ that’s dramatically higher than 120, or assume that he’s going to make 31 starts again.

Both guys may improve, but realistically, there’s a limit to how much they are capable of improving, even in the reasonable best-case scenario – in part, because they were pretty good last year, and in part because I don’t think either is going to post a “mid-90’s Maddux” season.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 11:30 AM CST up reply actions  

I'd agree you dont go into 2010 assuming better than a 120+ ERA+

but you could certainly argue that if those off the field distractions were removed from last year, they could have (and probably would have) posted stronger years.

There is no reason to think, especially of Dempster, that he can’t return to his 2008 form.

by bdlugz on Feb 23, 2010 11:57 AM CST up reply actions  

There are plenty of reasons to think that he won't return to 2008 form.

For starters, 155 ERA+ (or OPS+, for that matter) seasons just don’t happen very often for most players. It’s a Hall of Fame level of production.

Secondly, we are talking about a pitcher who really turned the corner late in his career – he’s still young-ish, but he’s 33 now, and injuries can always happen. It becomes more and more difficult to just assume 30+ starts as a pitcher enters his thirties.

Dempster has had two straight good years. However, I think it’s a bit greedy for Cubs fans to say that his 123 ERA+ season was an “off year” for him, and that he’s likely to “return to his 2008 form”, when that season was so incredibly great, both objectively and for this particular pitcher.

I’d be happy if he repeated his 2009 season. And I don’t think that’s a given.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 12:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I wont argue with those points, you're most likely correct

And to expect an ERA+ of 150 out of Dempster is unfair to him – if you’d have told me he could’ve come on as a starter for us and put up those numbers I’d have laughed at you.

However, since he DID put up an ERA+ of 150, and he even put up an ERA+ of 123 last year with SERIOUS off field issues, I think it’s fair to expect an ERA+ or 120-135 or so this year, assuming he is healthy and there are no major issues off the field.

by bdlugz on Feb 23, 2010 1:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure, why not.

But even if Z and Dempster improve to that extent, we’re still looking at asking Randy Wells to match a phenomenal rookie campaign, and Ted Lilly to match what will undoubtedly go down in the books as his career year (his 2009 was similar to Dempster’s 2008) – and because the #5 starter spot is in complete flux with Harden out and no heir apparent, that’s just to try and match what the starting pitching did last year.

Putting it simply, I think it’s going to be very difficult for our starters, as a group, to match last year’s production, in terms of quality or quantity.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 1:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Note my comparison of Wells to Kevin Tapani.

Very similar rookie years — and Tapani got better his second year.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 23, 2010 1:48 PM CST up reply actions  

To be fair to both players, Wells was substantially better than Tap.

Tapani’s rookie year was a 4.07 season, 103 ERA+.
Wells’ was a 3.05, 147 ERA+.

It’s going to be a heck of a lot harder for Wells to match or improve upon his rookie year than it was for Tap.

In fact, I think the odds of Wells matching a 147 ERA+ season with 160+ IP are awfully slim.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

I disagree...

… largely because Wells has excellent control, and seems to have a really good mound presence. You can’t teach that.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 23, 2010 2:06 PM CST up reply actions  

How many guys post 147 ERA+ seasons each year?

Not many. Only 5 in the NL last year were better. Carpenter, Lincecum, Wainwright, Cain, Jurrjens. Then Wells.

It’s not fair to Wells to expect him to be THAT awesome again.

I mean, Johan Santana’s career mark is 143.

I don’t care how much mound presence he has – Randy Wells is not “likely” to post HOF-level stats year after year.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 2:18 PM CST up reply actions  

I dont think we NEED Wells to be our best pitcher this year.

I think that if we see improvements from Z and Dempster, and a slight regression from Wells and Lilly we’ll still be just fine.

You need to realize that the average #4 pitcher puts up around a 100 ERA+, we have four people clearly capable of putting up better numbers than that, as we have been shown.

I think by losing Harden, it will help the bullpen a bit, as will getting rid of some of the weaker parts of last years pen.

by bdlugz on Feb 23, 2010 2:08 PM CST up reply actions  

That's not the argument I'm making.

The argument I’m making is that the 2010 starting pitchers aren’t going to be as good as the 2009 starting pitchers were, due to two factors:

1. Harden is gone, to be replaced by (probably) Gorzelanny, last seen getting absoutely rocked out of Wrigley by the D-Backs; and

2. Our top 5 starters in 2009 were certifiably awesome.

We can expect some regression from Wells – and he’ll still be good! We have to expect similar regression from Lilly, too – just because starting pitchers rarely put up 150 OPS+ seasons!

I’m assuming some marginal improvement from Z and Dempster (more from Z than Demp, just b/c, again, Demp was very good last year), but still, the fact is, we can safely predict that 3/5 starters in our rotation are going to be down this year.

It’s just not fair to our starters to expect them to be able to hold THAT kind of a line, especially with Harden out of the picture.

And removing Harden for a lesser pitcher is not going to help our pen.

Harden went into the 6th in the vast majority of his starts last year. Gorzo made it out of the 5th literally one time in 2009.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 2:14 PM CST up reply actions  

have the 2010 starters be nearly as good

and score 2 more runs a game, and we take the division.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Feb 23, 2010 4:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Damn straight.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 11:05 PM CST up reply actions  

and score 2 more runs a game, and we take the division.

oh I dunno… you sure about that? ;-)

Last year, the Cubs scored 4.39. Add two to that and you get 6.39 runs per game. I dare say boosting your offensive production by 45% would win you a few more games…

Just for reference sake, the Cards won the division last year scoring 4.51 runs per game, the Phillies lead the NL with 5.06, and the Yankees lead everyone with 5.65 runs per game.

So yeah, two more runs would kinda make a difference.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 24, 2010 12:13 AM CST up reply actions  

well

score two more runs in the games where we scored zero, at least… :D

Score FIVE runs a game average, and we take the division. I was just being sure. :D

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Feb 24, 2010 5:38 PM CST up reply actions  

That's fine, D98, and I agree about the picthers.

However, at the same time, you have to expect a vast improvement from Soriano (Career OPS+ of over 125), Ramirez (missed 80 games), 2B production (Fontenot has a viable platoon again and wont be playing 3rd), and we’ll have much improved OF defence with Byrd in CF and Fukudome in RF.

Baseball is more than just our starting 5.

by bdlugz on Feb 24, 2010 9:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Ramirez, absolutely. OF defense - sure.

Soriano, I’m not so sure. We could all have front-row seats to a five year retirement tour. He wasn’t just bad last year – he was one of the 5 worst players in the league.

I’m absolutely unsure of what to expect from him – he could have another (maddeningly inconsistent) “good” Soriano year, or he could fall completely off the cliff.

I’m also unsure of how Fonty/Baker are going to perform. Fontenot in particular has only experienced success when he had Lou picking his spots and using him sporadically.

Baseball is about more than starting pitching – but starting pitching is the largest factor. And it’s going to be worse this year.

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by D98 on Feb 25, 2010 12:08 AM CST up reply actions  

BLOU, Please answer this:

Last year the Cubs had Milton Bradley. I don’t need to explain the four alarm grease fire that was. Ramirez missed half of the season if not more with his injury. He may have come back in 55 games or so, but he surely wasn’t himself. Soriano basically had one leg. Soto was fat, possibly ripped, and unhealthy. Zambrano missed time. Dempster had a freak injury that led to him missing time. Lilly missed time. Gregg was brutal. The Cubs had Heilmann and Cotts in their pen. The Cubs had Fontenot playing third. Aaron Miles got playing time.

If you can look at the above paragraph, and then tell me that the Cubs this year will be 11 games worse than you are no doubt drinking your bath water. Please, I beg of you to explain how the absolute tire fire that was 2009 will be better than the 2010 Cubs?

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Feb 23, 2010 9:32 AM CST up reply actions  

I tried doing that once when I was really bored

Being reasonable with BLou, that is. It was slightly more sane than arguing with a wall. It wasn’t really that long ago.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Feb 23, 2010 12:08 PM CST up reply actions  

I would be willing to bet that the starting pitching is worse in 2010 than it was in 2009.

While many of our starters “missed time” last year, none of them missed a lot of time.

Dempster started 31 games. Z started 28 games. Lilly started 27 games. Wells started 27 games. Harden started 26 games.

That’s not really the hallmark of a rotation decimated by injuries. It’s practically a “best case scenario” for an MLB team these days.

Moreover, those guys were awfully good. Those 5 players combined for something like 850 innings of 125-ish OPS+ pitching.

This year, Harden is gone, to be replaced by a TBD pitcher who may or may not be Carlos GD Silva. 2009’s top performer, Lilly, is injured, and may or may not be able to return full strength after missing a month or so.

I don’t see how we can possibly expect 850 innings of awesome pitching from our top 5 starters.

I also don’t see how anyone can COUNT on a resurgence from Soriano, Soto, or Theriot, or count on an initial “surgence” from Fukudome. I mean, some of these guys will likely be better, but I wouldn’t bet my house on it. They aren’t that great.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 10:49 AM CST up reply actions  

but some of these guys will likely be better

and Ramirez will be healthy — that makes the offense stronger. Let’s say Soto and Theriot improve (they are the younger players in the group) and Soriano and Kosuke are just as good as they were in 2009. That’s a much better offense — without even figuring in Nady.

Z and Dempster weren’t just affected by injuries, they didn’t have very good years. I know Z’s stats weren’t that bad, and Dempster was good in the second half. But I’m comfortable predicting better years from both of them.

by elgato on Feb 23, 2010 11:08 AM CST up reply actions  

Dempster had a very good year.

I don’t see how you can expect a major improvement from 200 innings of 123 ERA+ pitching. I mean, yes, it’s possible he could do better, but that season was the 2nd best of his entire career, and it was pretty great by any objective measure.

Z could improve, but he still posted something like a 110 ERA+.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 12:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Dempster had a good half-season

His first half was not good as he struggled with family issues.

My guess is he splits the difference between 2008 and 2009 — if he stays healthy.

by elgato on Feb 23, 2010 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

He still had a very good year.

His second half was better than his first half, but you can’t say that 200 innings of 3.64 ERA baseball is anything other than “good”.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 1:00 PM CST up reply actions  

But you

would bet your house on them being worse in 2010?

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Feb 23, 2010 11:08 AM CST up reply actions  

I'd consider betting my house that our top 5 starters don't match 2009's top 5.

The Cubs starting pitching last year was really good, and awfully healthy.

I don’t see 2010’s top 5 starters outpacing the league by 25% over 850 innings.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 11:18 AM CST up reply actions  

All house betting aside...

If there is regression, I think it will be minimal. I also feel the offense will be a lot better this year as will the ’pen.

Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.

by TCobb1911 on Feb 23, 2010 12:43 PM CST up reply actions  

It's not just regression - it's replacing Harden with "Starter TBA"

Right now, 20% of the Cubs’ 2010 starts are unaccounted for. And that’s leaving Lilly’s injury out of the discussion.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 1:02 PM CST up reply actions  

But dont you believe that replacing Harden can only help our bullpen in the long run?

The guy was dominant when he was on, but was a 5 inning machine. He just couldn’t do more. That kind of work really can tax a bullpen, especially if another starter has a rough start and we are forced to go deep in our bullpen.

by bdlugz on Feb 23, 2010 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't see why it would.

Sean Marshall is in our bullpen, and is perfectly capable of going 2 innings once a week. The Cubs need to embrace the idea of the long man in the pen, especially because they’ve been employing one for the last 4 years.

Besides, Gorzellany went only 5 innings (or less) in 6 of his 7 starts last year.

Harden went six innings or more in 16 of 26 starts last year.

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by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 1:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure, Marshall can be a long reliever.

But Lou won’t use him that way.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 23, 2010 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

tisk tisk tisk

he should be starting

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 23, 2010 4:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I definitely agree about embracing the long man.

Figuratively speaking, of course.

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by daver on Feb 23, 2010 1:52 PM CST up reply actions  

TWSS

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Feb 23, 2010 4:01 PM CST up reply actions  

The big difference between the 2008 and 2009 Cubs rotation

The Cubs were overall a better team in 2008 and the numbers showed. We also had better pitching. I’m not entirely sold on quality starts as an argument, so I’ll go with my eyes.

Ryan Dempster would have been a serious contender for the Cy Young in 2008 had he gotten more run support in road games, but I’m not saying he would have won it. He was clearly better than his 17-6 record and he had ten no-decisions that year. He also had a 155 ERA+. Rich Harden was also significant because we may not have won the division last year if not for that trade. Harden had a career year in 2008 and, in 12 starts for the Cubs, he had a 259 ERA+ with a total 211 ERA+ for his entire 2008 stats.

Harden’s K/9 did not drop significantly in 2009, but he was much less effective. Dropping from a career high 211 ERA+ in 2008 to a pathetic 110 ERA+ is more glaring than his 4.09 ERA in 2009. I can’t really say I was disappointed to see Rich Harden leave even though I supported offering him arbitration. I was disappointed for Rich in 2009 because I enjoyed watching him pitch in 2008.

Can Carlos Zambrano dominate again? If the guy stays healthy, I don’t see why he can’t be a dominant pitcher in 2010. If he plays up to his capabilities, it will be obvious why he ended up getting the money he did.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Feb 23, 2010 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

listing the starts

doesn’t necessarily tell the whole story. Harden, in particular, left a lot of games very early.

I trust the projections.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Feb 23, 2010 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Trying to be reasonable with BLou? ::crickets::

Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 23, 2010 9:07 PM CST up reply actions  

agree on Soriano not on Z or that we have a ball club in severe decline....but just out of pure naive curiosity

what do you suggest Hendry do with the Soriano problem

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 22, 2010 9:03 PM CST up reply actions  

What would you do?

If I was Hendry, I would keep my fingers crossed and pray a lot.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:05 PM CST up reply actions  

not an acceptable answer!!

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 22, 2010 9:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Have a better one?

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:09 PM CST up reply actions  

no...I look up to you guys....I expect some kind of an answer

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 22, 2010 9:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Well...

…I didn’t make the decision to give him 8 years, a no trade and all that dough. With that being the case, there is not answer except to HOPE he can give you another couple years of production, before you have a complete albatross on your hands.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:13 PM CST up reply actions  

sh#t I know that

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 22, 2010 9:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Then you know...

…what I know.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:17 PM CST up reply actions  

yabbut

do you know sh*tmydadsays?

you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT

by Emelie on Feb 22, 2010 9:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Soon to be a tv show

starring The Shatner.

www.facebook.com/craighudak

by Craig in South Bend on Feb 22, 2010 9:45 PM CST up reply actions  

is that the bomb or what?

you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT

by Emelie on Feb 22, 2010 9:46 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm stoked

I always envisioned the dad as Red Forman from That 70s Show, but Shatner will do.

www.facebook.com/craighudak

by Craig in South Bend on Feb 22, 2010 9:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Hendry got rid of Bradley when NoOne thought he would with 6M attached....

dont you think he could do something with Bradley….eat some of the contracy and trade him to somone who wants a DH

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 22, 2010 9:14 PM CST up reply actions  

*something with Soiano*

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 22, 2010 9:14 PM CST up reply actions  

five years and $90 million

is a LOT different than two years and $23 million. Plus, no one thought Bradley was possibly on a serious decline. They just thought he had a bad year and was a wrong fit in Chicago.

The only way to shed a really bad contract (usually) is to take on one that’s equally as bad. Aside from Vernon Wells, I don’t know who else is making TONS of money whose recent performance is on par with Soriano’s.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 9:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep, the problem was he was a bad fit in Chicago

The other 7 cities were also the problem. MB has never been the problem, and Seattle should be a great fit!

by bdlugz on Feb 23, 2010 10:52 AM CST up reply actions  

dude ...

I’m not defending Bradley at all. I’m just saying that his personality in a high-pressure atmosphere was a losing bet.

by elgato on Feb 23, 2010 11:09 AM CST up reply actions  

haha, sorry, wasnt really an attack on you

but the idiot GMs who keep telling themselves that he’ll be different in their city.

by bdlugz on Feb 23, 2010 11:23 AM CST up reply actions  

If you are contemplating...

…Hendry attempting to rid the Cub’s of their obligation to Soriano (5 more years and almost $100 million) – good luck with that one.

I’d venture a guess it would cost the Cubs at least half of his remaining money to move him (around $50 million). In that case Hendry should just turn in his resignation.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:17 PM CST up reply actions  

what would you DO besides pray....or is there no solution

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 22, 2010 9:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Hope...

…and hope real hard!

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:22 PM CST up reply actions  

really???

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 22, 2010 9:29 PM CST up reply actions  

you know what I think

I like Soriano…but I think he is the KEY to the Cubs success this year….not pitching, not the outfield, not SS or 2B

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 22, 2010 9:33 PM CST up reply actions  

assuming no major downgrades ...

from guys like Theriot, D-Lee, etc., the Cubs need two of the following three things to happen:

1) A healthy Ramirez
2) A resurgent Soto
3) A resurgent Soriano

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 9:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I would agree...

…assuming things go pretty well on the pitching side of it as well.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:42 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm actually optimistic about the pitching

I was not a Harden fan (especially not last year), I’m drinking the Z kool-aid, and I love Demp and Lilly. Also, I like the pen — and I would really like it if the Theriot arb money went to sign the still available Calero.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 9:45 PM CST up reply actions  

He very well...

…may be the key to a successful Cub’s season, or one of the reasons they fall short.

As I have mentioned many times on this board, I believe the window of opportunity was pretty much closed on this core group after 09. Now, there are just too many things that have to go right for them to be legit WS contenders.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

to put it another way, the margin for error is smaller now, and with many of the key players getting older, the possibility of decline and/or injury just gets greater.

by azjazzman on Feb 22, 2010 10:14 PM CST up reply actions  

see how he fares this year ...

if he can’t stay healthy as the everyday left fielder, move him to first next season and (sadly) say goodbye to D-Lee. The money saved could be used to keep Aramis and/or Lilly and to find a relatively cheap middle-order bat who hits left handed and plays left.

by elgato on Feb 22, 2010 9:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Not far fetched...

…but you would have a signficant drop off in your defense at 1b.

With 5 years left on his deal, this Soriano thing could turn real ugly.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 22, 2010 9:11 PM CST up reply actions  

What can he do?

Jim Hendry painted himself into a corner with the deal to make a statement. Any deal like that is high risk. Older players are more likely going to get injured and without performance enhancing drugs flooding the sport anymore, regular declines are going to happen. Soriano never did the stuff, but the temptation used to be there for older players who did not want to give up on the game.

If the Cubs won the World Series in 2007 or 2008, we’d probably be complaining about Soriano, but must less than we do. It would be on the same level as David Ortiz, a declining player that was once a beast of a player that helped a team finally win another World Series. Without a World Series title, this is one of the worst free agent signings made by the Cubs if not the worst.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Feb 23, 2010 12:28 PM CST up reply actions  

SWL I think it's time to resurrect that spin-o-matic graphic from a year or so ago

the one that gave us a chance to spin for BLou’s canned repetitive assertions and updated to include “This is a sub .500 ballclub”

you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT

by Emelie on Feb 22, 2010 9:10 PM CST up reply actions  

LOL

Insert Clever Statement Here

by MrNFL on Feb 23, 2010 8:17 AM CST up reply actions  

I like how he tees off, disappears, and then by a bit later to reiterate his point...

… while totally ignoring any responses he’s gotten in the meantime. Reminds me of this gem:

Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Feb 23, 2010 11:16 AM CST up reply actions  

Where did you find that?

Hilarious.

Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 23, 2010 9:08 PM CST up reply actions  

I think on the internet?

No idea.

Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Feb 24, 2010 10:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Go easy, BLou is in ST too. He has to get

his vitriol warmed up for that in-season form.

at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!

by N Oakley on Feb 23, 2010 10:13 AM CST up reply actions  

All apologies

Soriano is a drama queen sideshow? Are you sure you are not writing about yourself? I’d say Soroiano leans more toward aloof recluse, and I mean the man no harm. Looks like he played quietly in pain last year. That is not a drama queen.

Also nice that you don’t debate that he has had a knee issue. Alas the surgery was not to waste!

The only thing way overblown is your Soriano decline. At his age it is quite probable, but a healthy Soriano will still produce.

"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman

by BucknerKongCardenal on Feb 22, 2010 10:13 PM CST up reply actions  

This is not a sub .500 ballclub...

I'm a truth teller, I'm a risk taker, I'm like Johnny Cash - I walk the line...

by Jimmyeatworld on Feb 23, 2010 4:52 PM CST up reply actions  

SOW THE GROUND WITH LYE!

Soriano shows up and hasn’t run full speed yet! IT’S ALL OVER!!!!

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Feb 22, 2010 9:07 PM CST reply actions  

which straw man

arguments would those be?

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Feb 24, 2010 5:39 PM CST up reply actions  

The one where he doesnt have a brain, of course.

He’s hopping, skipping and jumping on his way to see the wizard.

by bdlugz on Feb 24, 2010 9:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, for one, no one claimed it was all over.

I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers

by Nunyabidness on Feb 25, 2010 9:18 PM CST up reply actions  

sar·chasm (‘sär-"ka-z&m) : The giant gulf (chasm) between what is said and the person who doesn’t get it.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Feb 26, 2010 2:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Man...

Why even watch this season if we’re sooooo boned with Soriano’s gimpy legs.

I’m going to watch Arena Football and lucha libre instead.

www.facebook.com/craighudak

by Craig in South Bend on Feb 22, 2010 9:50 PM CST reply actions  

I've been DVRing all the curling competitions.

I’m just going to watch them this summer instead i think.

Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Feb 23, 2010 10:44 AM CST up reply actions  

What are you talking about, AL?

Bleacher Report posts galleries of hot ladies all the time! They are constantly useful in that regard! :-)

Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Feb 23, 2010 2:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Really?

Huh. Well, I never knew that, since I don’t read that site.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 23, 2010 2:06 PM CST up reply actions  

I was just messing with you.

The perddy ladies is about ALL they do of worth.

Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Feb 23, 2010 4:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I go there for the articles...

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 23, 2010 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure you do.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 23, 2010 3:02 PM CST up reply actions  

holy god. I think Russia just went with the hottest chicks they could find

and if they could actually understand how to play curling, then BONUS!

On a side note, a few of those other chicks are only ‘hot’ if you’re in a poorly lighted bar, and have polished off a six pack.

I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers

by Nunyabidness on Feb 23, 2010 8:32 PM CST up reply actions  

NSFW .. NSFW!!!

Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..

coda

ELO, 1975

by cubnational on Feb 23, 2010 8:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Really?

Your work makes me sad. Sorry for not warning, though.

Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Feb 24, 2010 10:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Where are the Chinese women in that???

Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 23, 2010 9:09 PM CST up reply actions  

is there any doubt that

curling was created by a couple of drunk Canadians

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Feb 23, 2010 1:31 PM CST up reply actions  

As to our sports, where giant men whack small balls with wooden sticks?

Or the one where they have four chances to move a ball ten yards?

Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Feb 23, 2010 2:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Speaking of men whacking small balls...

…here’s a classic – Robin Williams explaining who created golf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcnFbCCgTo4

WARNING: DEFINITELY NSFW

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 23, 2010 2:50 PM CST up reply actions  

My ears!!!! They're bleeding!!!!

Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 23, 2010 9:16 PM CST up reply actions  

A buddy and I created a curling drinking game last night

I forgot the rules already though. It involves beer and Jameson though.

"You’re playing a baseball game. You’re not playing Tiddlywinks. There is competition, for God’s sake."— Lou Piniella

by PacificCub on Feb 23, 2010 2:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Lemme guess -

Every time the announcer or commentator sounds Canadian, you drink a shot. Alternate beer and Jameson. Call the game amnesia.

at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!

by N Oakley on Feb 23, 2010 2:28 PM CST up reply actions  

It's aboat time for another drink, eh?

"There's more to life than profits...like, you know, slurpees and stuff." ~Randy Marsh

by Goodie1969 on Feb 23, 2010 6:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Damn. I forgot what we were doing.

at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!

by N Oakley on Feb 24, 2010 8:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Honesty compels me to say,

that the Soriano contract continues to make me puke.

Hey Lou, we're long overdue.

by deadcatbounce on Feb 22, 2010 10:31 PM CST reply actions  

No reason to get excited about Soriano.

I read no more into his comments than the fact that he didn’t push his knee during the off-season. He finished the season early to get the scope and went easy on it during the winter.

I’m looking for Sori to have his best season as a Cub in 2010. The knee will be fine, but his outfield defense will always be suspect. Having Rudy Jaramillo, who Soriano is familiar with, will fix that flailing swing of his. Starting the season batting 6th instead of leadoff will benefit him also. I would like to see him go to a lighter bat though. There is no reason for him to be swinging that warclub that he uses.

by montecarlo on Feb 23, 2010 2:20 AM CST reply actions  

Five more years.

It’s kind of insane that they gave an 8 year deal to anyone.

It’s even more insane that they gave it to a player they slated for CF while knowing that he’d never actually played the position, and who they weren’t EXACTLY sure how old he was.

$18M annually still buys a LOT of production in MLB. That should get you into Teixiera-Mauer-A-Rod-Pujols country, not a cipher like Fonzie.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 10:52 AM CST up reply actions  

It certainly gets you into the neighborhood.

Teix is making $20MM per. Pujols obviously makes much less, due to his hometown discount and the fact that he’s never been on the open market. Johan Santana made $16MM and $18MM the last two years. Carlos Beltran makes $18MM, for instance.

More to the point, I didn’t write that you could sign any of those particular players for exactly $18M. I wrote that in terms of production, $18MM gets you into “elite player” country, which is certainly accurate.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 11:05 AM CST up reply actions  

Understood, but on the open market

Arod goes for 25+, Mauer would go for 25+ and Pujols would easily grab 25+. There is a difference between what people are making and what it would cost you to get them on your team.

by bdlugz on Feb 23, 2010 11:13 AM CST up reply actions  

And Bradley + Fukudome make about $25MM, too.

This is the problem with our roster – we spend the same $50MM, but instead of getting 2 elite outfielders to pair with Felix Pie, we get Soriano-Bradley-Fukudome and a really expensive set of middle relievers.

We could have gotten Beltran for the money we eventually gave Soriano.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 23, 2010 11:15 AM CST up reply actions  

Believe me, im not defending our spending at all.

But simply pointing out that you’d never see those players you first mentioned signing for anywhere near Soriano money (unless for some reason they take a crazy hometown discount).

by bdlugz on Feb 23, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions  

not to split hairs, but $25 million is 'near' $18 million

I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers

by Nunyabidness on Feb 23, 2010 8:31 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah

but that’s saying that 1 million is near 8 million

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 23, 2010 8:32 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think you're actually that dense.

so I’m just going to walk away

I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers

by Nunyabidness on Feb 23, 2010 8:33 PM CST up reply actions  

ciphers are monsters

Soriano is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. … thanks, Mr. Churchill.

Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..

coda

ELO, 1975

by cubnational on Feb 23, 2010 8:42 PM CST up reply actions  

no, my friend, it's not

if a team is willing to spend 18 million on a player like Soriano, that team is more likely to be willing to spend 25 on AROD. Not on TOP of Soriano, but instead of.

If the Kansas City Royals sign someone for 1 million, they aren’t remotely likely to spend 8 million on a more expensive second baseman

I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers

by Nunyabidness on Feb 25, 2010 9:21 PM CST up reply actions  

No, but its better to sign someone like Soriano for say 18 million for the Cubs

I do recall we were in a payroll crunch last season, and 7 million dollars was essentially the reason we couldn’t keep DeRosa or Wood. Imagine what it would have been like with a 25 million dollar contract on the books

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 26, 2010 6:01 AM CST up reply actions  

Remember that rumor...

…that ARod was going to buy the team and become a player/owner?

Good times.

Follow me on Twitter here and catch my twice-weekly Cubs news updates here.

by daver on Feb 26, 2010 9:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Missing Out on Beltran

In 2005, to me, is still an enormous misstep by the Cubs organization that has since fallen under the radar. I think they missed out on a huge opportunity by letting him go to the Mets and could’ve gotten better production out of him than Soriano’s given us his three years here.

Yes Beltran has his injuries too. But if the past had been altered, would he have those injuries as a Cub? I have a feeling things would be a lot different if he were manning Center at this point.

No sense in dwelling on it, what’s done is done. Just saying…

by ZachenFoot on Feb 23, 2010 11:28 PM CST up reply actions  

you're right .. but really? you think CB would have been better?

I don’t know .. I still think given what he’d been hit with that he’d still be hurt. It might definitely been a lot cheaper though.

Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..

coda

ELO, 1975

by cubnational on Feb 25, 2010 4:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Beltran has been awesome for the Mets.

He’s dealt with some injuries, absolutely. But he’s put up some monster seasons for NYM, and he’s never put up any horrible seasons like Fonzie has for the Cubs. They’re getting their money’s worth, to be sure.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 26, 2010 9:15 AM CST up reply actions  

The thing is if Soriano is not ready shouldn't he start the season on the 15-day DL?

It would assure that Tracy and Millar make the team and then give Nady immediate playing time

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Feb 24, 2010 8:15 AM CST up reply actions  

Unless Nady's not ready either...

Follow me on Twitter here and catch my twice-weekly Cubs news updates here.

by daver on Feb 24, 2010 8:52 AM CST up reply actions  

Ach - you had to go there.

at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!

by N Oakley on Feb 24, 2010 8:54 AM CST up reply actions  

NO

WEZ GOOONA GET ADAM LIND AND PUT HIM IN LEFT FEILD.

"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver

by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 24, 2010 4:29 PM CST up reply actions  

ARGH!!!

MASTER PLAN!!

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 24, 2010 8:18 PM CST up reply actions  

ARGH!!!

MASTER PLAN!!

there, fixed that for ya… ;-)

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 24, 2010 10:04 PM CST up reply actions  

GRAYBAR?!?!

I guess it’s Spring Training for everyone…

by bdlugz on Feb 24, 2010 11:38 PM CST up reply actions  

rookie...

Make sure you stop by here for a game thread when we play the Pirates. You’ll see more ARGHs and graybars than you can shake a wooden leg at.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 24, 2010 11:50 PM CST up reply actions  

I may be a rookie...

but given my research I think I’m in the top 100. I plan on stopping by more than one game thread, as my fiance doesnt find my cheering, screaming, flailing and thrashing necessary…. she just doesn’t get it. She’s from Cleveland, afterall.

by bdlugz on Feb 25, 2010 12:00 AM CST up reply actions  

umm... I'm from Cleveland

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 25, 2010 8:10 AM CST up reply actions  

that's alright, ballhawk, we forgive you ;-)

(actually I like Cleveland a lot – it’s a funky city with some great restaurants… R&RHOF? not so much)

you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT

by Emelie on Feb 25, 2010 10:26 AM CST up reply actions  

yep...

I move from a city where the river catches on fire to a city where the river springs a leak.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 25, 2010 8:05 PM CST up reply actions  

that's not springing

it’s unzipping.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Feb 26, 2010 2:35 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm thinking...

…Nady may end up being a key offensive piece for the Cubs this year.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 24, 2010 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

and Jeff Baker as well

Aramis Ramirez will eventually be injured, and Baker will be perfect to fill the role for Ramirez

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 24, 2010 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

If Nady's healthy, he may be the everyday RF and

relegate Dome to accepting one of those we pay half sort of trades.

at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!

by N Oakley on Feb 25, 2010 8:34 AM CST up reply actions  

What happens...

…if Fukudome is doing well, but Soriano continues to struggle and Nady is showing signs of what he has a couple years ago?

Do you sit Soriano and his $18 million?

This is not a far fetched scenerio.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 25, 2010 9:05 AM CST up reply actions  

You play to win the game.

Follow me on Twitter here and catch my twice-weekly Cubs news updates here.

by daver on Feb 25, 2010 2:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Hello????

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!

Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 2, 2010 8:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Hey, coach, do you ever play to lose the game?

Follow me on Twitter here and catch my twice-weekly Cubs news updates here.

by daver on Mar 3, 2010 8:29 AM CST up reply actions  

You don't play to just play three quarters!

Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 3, 2010 9:27 PM CST up reply actions  

In a perfect world...

…you are correct, but a part of me would love to see how the Cubs would react to this with 5 years and a gazzilion dollars left on Soriano’s deal.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 25, 2010 3:25 PM CST up reply actions  

I very much doubt it.

Not because it wouldn’t be the right move, but because I don’t think Jim and Lou would do it.

I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers

by Nunyabidness on Feb 25, 2010 9:23 PM CST up reply actions  

yes, and Lou continued to play Soriano LOOOOOOONG

 after it was clear to everyone else that he wasn’t helping the team being in the lineup.

I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers

by Nunyabidness on Feb 28, 2010 8:30 AM CST up reply actions  

My bad - I thought you guys were talking about Kosuke.

Follow me on Twitter here and catch my twice-weekly Cubs news updates here.

by daver on Mar 1, 2010 12:07 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 26, 2010 11:05 AM CST up reply actions  

what's that about money talking?

Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..

coda

ELO, 1975

by cubnational on Mar 1, 2010 6:00 AM CST up reply actions  

Money talks - a wrinkled Hershey's Kiss walks?

Follow me on Twitter here and catch my twice-weekly Cubs news updates here.

by daver on Mar 1, 2010 12:07 PM CST up reply actions  

I thought it was Abe Simpson...

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Mar 1, 2010 1:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Last!

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 24, 2010 8:18 PM CST reply actions  

Ish.

Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.

by AndrewJStone on Feb 24, 2010 11:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Hey, you're last again!

Oh wait…

Follow me on Twitter here and catch my twice-weekly Cubs news updates here.

by daver on Feb 25, 2010 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Nope.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 25, 2010 5:43 PM CST up reply actions  

ah yes, the long tail of every BCB post

you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT

by Emelie on Feb 25, 2010 5:45 PM CST up reply actions  

TWSS

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 25, 2010 6:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Still elongating.

Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.

by Ryno Runner on Feb 25, 2010 6:25 PM CST up reply actions  

you know

I enjoy it when a thread gets long, let’s keep it up

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 25, 2010 6:27 PM CST up reply actions  

A little viagra should help in this case.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Feb 25, 2010 7:23 PM CST up reply actions  

hahaaha

I just love your username

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 25, 2010 7:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Run like Hayes - hit like Mays!

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Feb 25, 2010 8:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I thought size didn't matter


"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze

by eths on Feb 26, 2010 6:27 AM CST up reply actions  

It's how you use the thread.

Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.

by Ryno Runner on Feb 26, 2010 7:52 PM CST up reply actions  

That is sew true


"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze

by eths on Mar 2, 2010 3:21 AM CST up reply actions  

Needles to say, that was pretty funny...

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Mar 2, 2010 9:07 AM CST up reply actions  

So I guess it is safe to assume

Soriano will not be a leadoff hitter ever again.

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 25, 2010 6:26 PM CST reply actions  

you know the longer

you guess that it is safe to assume……

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 25, 2010 6:48 PM CST up reply actions  

the longer Soriano....

will not be a leadoff hitter

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 25, 2010 6:48 PM CST up reply actions  

hahaha wise words

wise words

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 25, 2010 6:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Last

OK I don't know shit about basketball.

by SoulEater7 on Nov. 5, 2009 9:51 PM CST

by sue369 on Feb 25, 2010 9:49 PM CST reply actions  

but you are always first in my book!

you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT

by Emelie on Feb 25, 2010 9:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Chance Saloon?

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 25, 2010 10:03 PM CST up reply actions  

no

may addition by subtraction be real

by N Oakley on Feb 25, 2010 11:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Let's break the record for comments on a fanpost

"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver

by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 26, 2010 9:55 AM CST reply actions  

Yeah, we're not even close to a few of the threads I've seen.

Follow me on Twitter here and catch my twice-weekly Cubs news updates here.

by daver on Feb 26, 2010 12:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Fan Post may be 800ish

Main thread on the page is 1000+

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 26, 2010 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

just leave our green thread alone :(

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 26, 2010 3:35 PM CST up reply actions  

hahaha

twas a good thread that was

Start Sean Marshall!!

by Chanman25 on Feb 26, 2010 6:43 PM CST up reply actions  

twas the best!

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 26, 2010 6:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Randy probably hasn't opened BCB up since then. Lol.

Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.

by Ryno Runner on Feb 26, 2010 7:53 PM CST up reply actions  

not about Randy anymore, that green thread is ours...lol

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 26, 2010 7:57 PM CST up reply actions  

But it all started with Randy


"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze

by eths on Mar 2, 2010 3:22 AM CST up reply actions  

....and ended with you ;)

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Mar 2, 2010 9:33 AM CST up reply actions  

This is great...

I can see Bobby Scales as our starting left fielder (as he was most of last season) already. Print your World Series tickets now, folks!!!

by TheGrinch13 on Feb 26, 2010 7:57 PM CST reply actions  

oh stfu

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 26, 2010 7:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Lol, gettin' a little irritated, aren't we?

Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.

by Ryno Runner on Feb 26, 2010 8:20 PM CST up reply actions  

sorry Grinch

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 27, 2010 8:05 AM CST up reply actions  

In Grinch-speak...

…. “most of last season” was 14 games. That’s how many Scales started in LF.

Granted, that’s 14 too many. But it doesn’t even work as hyperbole.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 27, 2010 8:35 AM CST up reply actions  

Still one of the more mind boggling decisions in a season full of them

and just one of many that makes me believe we’re all going to be sorry Lou is back

I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers

by Nunyabidness on Feb 28, 2010 8:32 AM CST up reply actions  

At the same time...

… none of us had too many criticisms of the way Lou managed in 2008.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2010 8:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Because they were good

and that’s a big thing that bugs me about sports. Remember in october, when the pats decided to go for it on fourth down with the lead, didn’t make and the colts scored to win? Everybody said it was a terrible decision, but if it would have been successful, they would be praising belicheck for how good of a decision it was.

"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver

by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 28, 2010 11:12 AM CST up reply actions  

Correct.

Proof that managers and coaches can only do so much.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2010 4:39 PM CST up reply actions  

We may not have voiced them as much, because winning was going on

but there were plenty of head scratchingly bad moves being made by Lou in that season. The talent was simply able to overcome them. That wasn’t the case last year, and I don’t think it will be the case this year either.

I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers

by Nunyabidness on Mar 3, 2010 10:59 AM CST up reply actions  

No, not Bobby Scales!

Micah Hoffpauir, of course!

Follow me on Twitter here and catch my twice-weekly Cubs news updates here.

by daver on Mar 1, 2010 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

JAKE FOX!!!!!

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 1, 2010 3:15 PM CST up reply actions  

PV!

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 1, 2010 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

KERRY WOODS

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 1, 2010 8:26 PM CST up reply actions  

LIND


"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze

by eths on Mar 2, 2010 3:23 AM CST up reply actions  

DUNN!!!!

Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 2, 2010 8:18 PM CST up reply actions  

MARSHALL!!!!!!

Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 2, 2010 8:18 PM CST up reply actions  

JAKEFOXXXXXXXXXXXX!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Mar 2, 2010 10:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Adrian Gonzalez!!!!!!!!

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 3, 2010 10:34 AM CST up reply actions  

I'M LAST!

Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 3, 2010 9:27 PM CST reply actions  

I guess this makes me...

…NEXT TO LAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Mar 3, 2010 9:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Second to next to last.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 3, 2010 10:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Second place is just the first loser!

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 3, 2010 10:43 PM CST up reply actions  

If you're not first

you’re LAST!

"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Mar 4, 2010 10:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Try again.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 5, 2010 8:19 PM CST up reply actions  

If at first I don't succeed...

"Chicago Cubs baseball is on the air."-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Mar 6, 2010 6:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Try, try again.

you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT

by Emelie on Mar 6, 2010 8:36 AM CST up reply actions  

And again!

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 6, 2010 8:44 AM CST up reply actions  

you win ;-)

you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT

by Emelie on Mar 6, 2010 10:34 AM CST up reply actions  

well, with a last name like Yellon, he usually is going to be last.

except for the Richie Zisks of the world…

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Mar 6, 2010 5:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I did wind up being last in most school lists.

Until I wound up in HS classes with a kid named Zimmerman.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 6, 2010 6:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Bob?

you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT

by Emelie on Mar 7, 2010 2:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Nope.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 8, 2010 6:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Jerry Zimmerman?

Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 8, 2010 11:16 AM CST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


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