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I want more Pie

Apologies if this has already been discussed recently, but I just happened to glance at Felix Pie's performance with the O's last season and was a bit surprised.  In about half a season (252 PA), Pie posted 1.4 WAR.  This is a higher production rate than Fukudome or Byrd achieved in 2009.

While Fukudome and Byrd hit better (each posted a RC+ of 108), Pie was still about league average at the plate (98 RC+).

Meanwhile, Pie is clearly the better defender, with a career OF UZR/150 of 10.4, while Dome and Byrd boast respective career UZR/150s of 2.7 and 4.2.

Perhaps with a bit more patience and appropriate valuation of defense, the Cubs could have had a young cost-controlled player producing at the same rate as their recent free agent signees.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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You're absolutely right.

But it’s kind of water under the bridge, no? He’s gone and not coming back. Let’s move on.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 23, 2010 5:48 PM CST reply actions  

I want DeRosa!

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Feb 23, 2010 8:03 PM CST up reply actions  

i hear this kid Josh Hamilton can hit

should we grab him in the Rule 5 draft?

newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 23, 2010 8:34 PM CST up reply actions  

me too

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Feb 26, 2010 7:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I can see 'im...

…everyday at AT&T! Not that I would.

"With Chance on first, and Evers on third,
Great things from the Cubs will soon be heard."

by LeSaboteur on Mar 2, 2010 12:16 AM CST up reply actions  

I saw him last night on MLB tv

he was on a talk show thing with his new team :(

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Mar 2, 2010 9:29 AM CST up reply actions  

I caught part of that, too

The way he talked about almost signing with the Giants three years ago – makes me think that he could run for office when his career ends.

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2010 10:05 AM CST up reply actions  

lol, yeah, his sainthood level dropped a little for me

baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it

by cooliogirl47 on Mar 2, 2010 10:13 AM CST up reply actions  

I was thinking...

…about going over to their FanFest and seeing what he had to say for himself, but I couldn’t bring myself to.

"With Chance on first, and Evers on third,
Great things from the Cubs will soon be heard."

by LeSaboteur on Mar 4, 2010 3:51 AM CST up reply actions  

Except that Felix Pie is incapable of hitting major league pitching

….to the point where Baltimore isn’t counting him much in their plans. So big deal that Pie FINALLY tasted a mild dose of hitting success in 2009. Just as soon as AL pitchers have a book on him it will be back to him struggling to hit over the Mendoza line.

I’ll also hereby predict that Pie spends a good chunk of 2010 playing Triple A ball for the umpteenth time.

I was right to cut bait on Pie.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Feb 23, 2010 5:49 PM CST reply actions  

Agreed.

From what I understand, it’s mostly Lou’s doing. The rest of the organization was actually behind Pie, but Lou wouldn’t play him.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 23, 2010 7:24 PM CST up reply actions  

If that's the case, then it's actually on Hendry.

No way a GM should let a field manager dictate something so important regarding roster composition.

There’s also no way that a GM should, after kowtowing to his field manager on something so important, turn the young asset into Aaron Heilman, and then flip Aaron Heilman for more or less nothing 1 year later.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 12:40 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I agree, up to a point.

The field manager should have some input. But in some cases I think Hendry gives his managers TOO much input. He did the same thing with Baker.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 24, 2010 1:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe you've already got this question

but why is your name suddenly Al Yellon? Well, I don’t mean suddenly, I’m sure you’ve had it your entire life, but have I entered into an alternate BCB universe? I was walking around campus today and swore I heard my alarm going off, is this just a dream? I’m so confused!

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Feb 24, 2010 1:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Also confused

Figured it was an imposter until i looked at the profile

by madcow256 on Feb 24, 2010 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Answered in other threads.

But here’s the answer in this one. There is a reason for this. It will be revealed soon.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 24, 2010 6:08 PM CST up reply actions  

You are such a man of mystery and intrigue

you are the most interesting man in the world!

you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT

by Emelie on Feb 24, 2010 9:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Al, when I first joined BCB I mispelled my user name and you told me it couldn't be changed

Now I see the Al Yellons of the world live by a different set of standards.

It must be nice living in your castle, eating your foie gras, looking down at us users who can’t spell their own names and have no power to change it.

by madcow256 on Feb 24, 2010 10:22 PM CST up reply actions  

oh please

you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT

by Emelie on Feb 24, 2010 10:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Apparently my sarcasm doesn't translate well on BCB

Do I have to resort to adding an animated sarcasm picture on every post to not get people annoyed at me?

by madcow256 on Feb 25, 2010 7:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Maybe not every one.

But this one, maybe.

At the time I told you it couldn’t be changed, that was true. Things have changed since then.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 25, 2010 8:00 AM CST up reply actions  

I figured as much

It wasn’t a big deal to create a new account.

I thought implying you were eating foie gras in a castle was tongue in cheek enough. If I had used caviar in a mansion instead, you would have known I was angry. ;)

by madcow256 on Feb 25, 2010 8:07 AM CST up reply actions  

I think the foie gras was a clue

Al hates foie gras. He only eats beluga caviar with his Big Gulps.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 25, 2010 8:13 AM CST up reply actions  

Jesus1000, is that you?

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 24, 2010 11:52 PM CST up reply actions  

That was a fun few hours

"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella

by El Borto on Feb 26, 2010 8:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Feb 25, 2010 10:43 AM CST up reply actions  

And I agree with you, up to a point.

I don’t think it’s simply Lou says, Jim does, but maybe you don’t either.

If it is though, then I understand something like a Fontenot over Blanco at short coming from Lou. But when it’s something as huge as the Pie situation, then it’s absolutely foolish to let your manager (especially one who planned to only manage two more years at the time) dictate whether or not your #1 prospect remains with the organization. But again, I don’t think it was that simple.

by shoemile on Feb 24, 2010 2:04 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree...

…baseball teams win and lose (especially over the long haul) much more on what their GM does and not the manager.

If your GM doesn’t make good decisions, it will bite you no matter how high your payroll is.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 25, 2010 9:25 AM CST up reply actions  

This absurd argument again....

Just because everyone agrees – and it’s worth repeating that EVERYONE AGREES – the final responsibility is on Hendry doesn’t mean a fan can’t investigate how a decision was made and who pushed for different scenarios.

"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts

by DGU on Feb 28, 2010 6:35 AM CST up reply actions  

It's like going to a Civil War Symposium

and hearing a smart and detailed presentation on the mistakes Winfield Scott mande, and then someone standing up afterwards and asking the question, “Yabbut, Abraham Lincoln was the president, so isn’t it all his fault?”

"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts

by DGU on Feb 28, 2010 7:12 AM CST up reply actions  

I'd blame McClellan way before Scott.

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Feb 28, 2010 9:57 PM CST up reply actions  

I heard...

…the organization was more split on Pie, and that it wasn’t just Lou who didn’t think he was ready.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 25, 2010 9:23 AM CST up reply actions  

Really?

I heard it was mostly Lou, that the rest of the organization wanted to see him get an extended shot.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 25, 2010 10:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Yep...

…it was my typical source (which is pretty good), but there is the chance he had it wrong.

I heard Lou (and about half the organization) wanted Pie to start in the minors in 08, but Hendry and a few others wanted him to go north with the club. From what I heard, Lou went along with this, but he did make it clear he thought Pie needed more seasoning in the minors.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 25, 2010 11:42 AM CST up reply actions  

You should never over season a Pie

A little cinnamon maybe, but not too much.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 25, 2010 6:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Good point!

I’d settle for some vanilla ice cream.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Feb 26, 2010 11:17 AM CST up reply actions  

I'd prefer a dollop of WHIPed cream


"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze

by eths on Mar 2, 2010 10:55 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Rec'd

This post clearly shows how DCF is one of the most underrated posters on the board and of course he’s spot on here. More people need to pay attention to him when he’s talking about Felix Pie.

"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts

by DGU on Feb 28, 2010 6:36 AM CST up reply actions  

lulz

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Feb 25, 2010 10:42 AM CST up reply actions  


"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze

by eths on Feb 23, 2010 6:25 PM CST reply actions  

OH, MAN

I can just taste those. Even the crust looks delicious. I’ve got to get up to Michigan to buy some cherries next year.

Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"

by cubzfan on Feb 23, 2010 6:40 PM CST up reply actions  

My kind of Pie

"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will

by eswan9 on Feb 24, 2010 11:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Shoulda, coulda

What about the other ex-cubs – The patterson brothers, Kerry Wood, Rich HIll, Sean Gallagher, Neifi perez, Michael Barrett, Ronny Cedeno.. Yeah, it would have been nice to have to predict his future, but the list of Cubs who left wrigley do become all stars probably pales in comparison to the list of ex-cub disappointments.

I really wish Pie the best, but this year I’ll be Cheering for Byrd and Kosuke. It’s cool.. we may win a few games this year even if we don’t have Pie.

by DisCUBbobulated on Feb 23, 2010 6:30 PM CST reply actions  

um ...

are you bemoaning the Cubs moves to cut ties with Neifi Perez, Michael Barrett and Ronny Cedeno? Hardy “Cubs who left wrigley do [sic] become all stars.”

by elgato on Feb 24, 2010 7:34 AM CST up reply actions  

oh, never mind

I just re-read your post.

by elgato on Feb 24, 2010 7:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, but the difference was the Cubs held on too long to

Corey, Hill, Barrett & Cedeno until they had no more value. With Pie, they traded too early. I’m not sure how E-Pat, Wood & Neifi enter this discussion.

at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!

by N Oakley on Feb 24, 2010 8:49 AM CST up reply actions  

I hope one lesson we've learned is...

the importance of making players prove themselves each rung of the minor leagues ladder. Make them master Boise before taking on Peoria. Peoria before Daytona,and Tennessee before Iowa.

We shouldn’t rush the options or Arbitration clock because someone is new and shiny.

by tim815 on Feb 23, 2010 6:53 PM CST reply actions  

Pie did those things....

the Cubs just never gave him an extended run at the big league level

Corey Patterson was rushed, Pie… not at all

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 23, 2010 8:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeahhhhh....

I’m going to have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one Dartmouth. For as much as I admire your keen intellect and baseball objectiveness you are way off your rocker on Mr. Felix Pie. I just don’t see it. In fact, I’ve never seen it. Felix Pie is Jose Macias redux. That is NOT something to get excited about.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Feb 23, 2010 9:10 PM CST up reply actions  

that's fine

i think a macias comparison is ludicrous. Jose Macias was a utility player who added little defensive value beyond positional replacement. Pie is at the worst an above average defensive CF who adds a ton of value with his glove

Macias career minor league OPS was .734 while being OLD for his league

Felix Pie’s career minor league OPS was .825 while being YOUNG for his league

I get that you dabble in the exaggerative definitives as your “schtick”, but this one really makes no sense. There’s no comparison between the two players at all….

But you’re generally not one to get into discussions about this stuff, so i’ll simply leave you with this

how about you set the terms for whether Pie would be a success or not this year with the bat, what would his OPS have to be for you to consider him a success or his WAR? Put a number to it and let’s see if Pie can beat it.

He’s not even 25 and you’ve written him off

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 23, 2010 9:23 PM CST up reply actions  

I wrote Felix Pie off when he was 23

The hyperbole aside, Felix Pie is in my opinion never going to hit major league pitching to a sufficient enough level. Certaintly not to a level where he will ever have job security at the big league level. Like I said somewhere else, I envision his “future” as continually shuttling between Triple A and the bigs for a procession of major league teams.

Perhaps a more apt comparison without all the schtick? A very poor man’s Juan Encarnacion. Sorry, but I won’t lose sleep over that brand of commodity leaving the nest.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Feb 23, 2010 9:31 PM CST up reply actions  

two things

1) you never set a standard that Pie could potentially surpass and you’d admit defeat. I’m willing to admit that if he’s not a 2 WAR/year player during his prime years(26-30) i’d be surprised and admit defeat. Since WAR is a counting stat its dependent on him being a starter

2) Having a Pie on the roster would’ve prevented us from wasting 3 years and 15 million on Marlon Byrd. That has value. Even getting league average production or slightly worse on a cost controlled contract allows the team to have larger contracts at other points of the diamond

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 23, 2010 9:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Well....

I can’t stand the fact that Jim Hendry is perpetually in the market for flawed and expensive free agent outfielders. But that said I do not believe Felix Pie could have sufficiently held down the fort in centerfield…even in a platoon situation. I’m not sold on his hitting ability at all. His on-base skills are not good and his run production value simply not there. You can’t bury a guy like that in the #8 hole all season. Not unless you are the Big Red Machine teams of the mid 70s and had the luxury of dumping Cesar Geronimo in the # 8 hole.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Feb 23, 2010 9:57 PM CST up reply actions  

still no standard prediction for Pie

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 24, 2010 8:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Sigh...

It was a simple request. Set a threshold in either OPS or WAR at which performance above it would show you he actually does have the ability to hit major league pitching

or

performance below would make you right.

I like to think that the mere chance that you can quote yourself in your sig for being right about something would entice you to man up and throw a number out there. Looks like you’ll just change the subject and never return to this. Your act is so tired and old.

Follow me on Twitter: @brandonrifkin

by Schwa on Feb 24, 2010 4:08 PM CST up reply actions  

That's ridiculous.

Pie succeeded and eventually starred at every minor league stop, despite being consistently young for his league by at least 1 year, and often two.

If you “don’t see it”, that’s because you’re putting an inordinate amount of weight on his 250-odd plate appearances as a Cub, completely ignoring what he did for BAL last year, and completely ignoring his minor league accomplishments.

You probably would have traded Colby Rasmus when he was hitting .190 after 250 plate appearances last year, too.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 12:42 PM CST up reply actions  

He got into trouble with options

We dumped him for too little because he had no options left (iirc), and Lou didn’t trust him. When did we start burning through his options?

by tim815 on Feb 24, 2010 1:23 PM CST up reply actions  

when we yanked him around in '08

was the biggest issue….

they entered the season with him as the all-glove little bat CF, then lou got frustrated and started playing reed johnson over him at which point they sent Pie down to get regular AB’s and took a flier on Edmonds

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 24, 2010 2:48 PM CST up reply actions  

We had room on the MLB roster for Joey Gathright.

Felix Pie’s option year status was NOT an issue at the beginning of the 2009 season. There was plenty of room on the 25-man.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 3:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Eventually Starred?

I’m not seeing that in his minor league stats. 2006 in AAA and he has almost a 3/1 K/BB ratio. Minors or MLB, I’m still not seeing any sense of plate discipline.

I think the Cubs rushed Pie like they rushed Patterson. I don’t think they ever taught either player to shorten his swing.

"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver

by RiskyBusiness on Feb 24, 2010 1:25 PM CST up reply actions  

why would you shorten his swing?

he’s a gap-power hitter, that’s his role. He’s never going to be a disciplined leadoff hitter.

The problem was the Cubs decided after he had success at every stop doing the things he’d done his whole life, that they’d ask him to completely change his approach at the major league level (before he even had much of a chance to fail)

They tried to fit a square peg into a round hole by trying to make him a disciplined, bunting, leadoff hitter. His best asset has always been his gap-power, speed, and defense. They decided to de-emphasize his offensive tools and ask him to become something different than he ever was

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 24, 2010 2:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Shorter swing does not reduce power

Plenty of players have hit for power with a short, compact speed that enables them to wait longer before committing to a pitch.

Being a disciplined hitter is not just for leadoff hitters. Sluggers and gap hitters need this skills as well.

"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver

by RiskyBusiness on Feb 24, 2010 4:35 PM CST up reply actions  

agreed

discipline isn’t just for any subset

but he’d succeeded his whole life and instead of allowing to do what got him to this level, the Cubs immediately tried to change him

it makes little sense

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 24, 2010 5:27 PM CST up reply actions  

In 2006 at AAA he was 21 years old.

Check out how he did in 2007. I’d call that “eventually starring” at that level.

The Cubs absolutely did NOT rush Pie. They did precisely the opposite – they promoted him from each level after absolutely dominant years, and he continued to excel with each promotion, despite being the youngest player at each stop.

Then, after 7 years of coaching him up through our minor league system, they completely cut bait and traded him for absolutely nothing.

Pie’s August 2009 would have come in awfully handy for last year’s Cubs. I don’t think that we had a single outfielder post a month like that all year. Plus, he could play CF, which Fukudome could not.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

jsut curious

did it occur to anyone that Pie could not produce under the pressure of Chicago Sports Media and Cub Fans who expect production NOW?

We have seen players who were good elsewhere bomb here under the pressure, then go on to be successful once they left Wrigley Field (LaTroy Hawkins might be the best example, but there are others as well)

newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 3:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't give any credence to that.

He barely played at all for the Cubs – certainly not enough to be considered a “bomb”. Besides, he hit just fine in his September callup in 2008 during the pennant drive.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 4:29 PM CST up reply actions  

just because you dont give it any credence

does not mean that you are correct. He did fail in Chicago under the pressure, now you can blame it on whatever you want to, but it doesnt change that he batted 241 had a 318 OBP and had a negative WAR value for the 2008 season.

newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 4:34 PM CST up reply actions  

If he "failed", then literally every other player in MLB is a "failure."

1. How many MLB players do you think have ever posted a .241/.312/.325 line over 98 AB?

I’d venture to say “all of them”.

2. I don’t think that you understand how WAR works. It’s not a rate stat.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 4:42 PM CST up reply actions  

I guess i need to only use one stat per reply

instead of using more than one for you to try and register.

plain and simple

PIE STUNK AS A CUB AND IS NOT MISSED

there, no stat for you to misunderstand or to try and group into one thing.

fyi the word AND means that I am using more than one point in my reply, and I did not state that the 241/318/325 is WAR, it was nothing more than another piece of evidence

newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 4:46 PM CST up reply actions  

I assume you would have traded Colby Rasmus after his April-May 2009.

I don’t think you understand the idea of small sample sizes, or the concept behind the WAR/UZR stats you’re citing. I’m actually baffled as to what you are talking about.

But for the record, to say that a player “stunk”, or “failed” after 93 AB of .241/.318/.325 as a 23 year old, is just kind of…. dumb. It doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. Frankly, there are people who have had MVP seasons that have had 93 AB stretches in which they hit .241. Can you follow?

I mean, Colby Rasmus’ entire 2009 wasn’t that much better in terms of rate stats, and he was substantially worse than that through his first 200-odd at-bats. I can assume you would have called him a “failure” and traded him for Aaron Heilman, right?

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 4:56 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

he has not been able to hold a starting job

for the Cubs or Baltimore. C-Pat was the same way.

I am done debating with you, as I will point to what he has done (or lack of) while you can continue to state what you wish to, while wanting to avoid what he actually did produce.

Small sample or not, it is the reality of what he has done

newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 5:02 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure exactly what you're "pointing to."

I mean, you’re citing a player’s WAR in a year in which he had 98 AB.

Why don’t you argue that Jason Heyward sucks because his MLB WAR is 0.0 and he can’t even be found on the career HR leaderboard?

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 5:07 PM CST up reply actions  

and again you skip all the evidence to pick what you wish to

congrats

again, lets agree to disagree, since you want to prove something Pie is when he has not been that, while I have given you the facts of what he has been (small sample or not)

newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 5:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Pie was good in 2009. He was phenomenal in the 2nd half of 2009.

He would have helped the 2009 Cubs immensely. He would help the 2010 Cubs immensely. The Cubs acted stupidly in trading him. Your arguments are nonsensical and difficult to follow.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 5:10 PM CST up reply actions  

isnt half a seaosn a small sample size

I am jsut trying to get the handle on what is a big enough sample size and what isnt, since you have stated as small as 17 ABs once, told me 98 was too small, and now you step to half a season.

newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 5:39 PM CST up reply actions  

"he did fail in chicago under the pressure," ha what?

month of september, 2008 playoff run, pie’s line:

.300 .391 .450 .841

you sir, are mistaken.

the problem with the pie trade goes beyond what pie was for the cubs or what he will become, its about what we received in return. absolutely nothing.

bring back harden.

by kylejo on Feb 24, 2010 5:00 PM CST up reply actions  

again one month

well, if I am wrong using small samples as D98 states, how can you use a smaller sample? The season of 2008 he flopped, and he had ONE month in a six month season where he put up decent numbers, not exactly a good argument point IMHO

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 5:03 PM CST up reply actions  

im giving you

the pressure situation. ha and you’re the one trying to use the small sample sizes.

take a bigger sample, pie’s line last year:

.266 .326 .437 .763

pretty much fukudome, but better defense.

bring back harden.

by kylejo on Feb 24, 2010 5:05 PM CST up reply actions  

let me use the D98 defense

but Pie played less, so it doesnt count

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 5:08 PM CST up reply actions  

haha

“it doesnt count,” that’s classic.

its harder to put together good offensive stats as a part time player. his .171 ISO last season also looks promising.

he’s fukudome minus the OBP but with more power and better defense.

bring back harden.

by kylejo on Feb 24, 2010 5:11 PM CST up reply actions  

FWIW

the September 2008 month that has been pointed to in this thread

he had a total of 8 AB at home and 9 on the road, pointing to that is beyond hilarious.

Now, D98 has continued to state that his ABs are not enough, so yes that is the defense used by him, so why would it not be the same when comparing Fukudome and Pie in 2009?

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 5:16 PM CST up reply actions  

the pressure situations!

there felix sat at the plate, the scent of pine tar on his nose and the cheers of 40,000 fans screaming in his ears. september baseball with first place on the line. would pie choke in the pressure!?! will the fans and media get to him!? NO! he says i will hit to the tune of .300 in my 20 valiant september call up at bats!

bring back harden.

by kylejo on Feb 24, 2010 5:21 PM CST up reply actions  

for 8 ABs in Chicago

and that is how you will prove he didnt fail from any of the Chicago pressure? Seriously?

He was 3 for 8 in Chicago, under the Chicago pressure of Chicago Fans and Chicago media being right there.

Now in a 17 AB stretch, you can argue in favor of ANY PLAYER in MLB history, since you can pick any 17 AB stretch you wanted, right?

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 5:25 PM CST up reply actions  

the pressure though...

it was everywhere!

bring back harden.

by kylejo on Feb 24, 2010 5:26 PM CST up reply actions  

and it was for all his career

as a Cub, since both 2007 and 2008 they were in the hunt.

again if 98 ABs is too small, then 17 is not on the radar.

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 5:28 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't know why anyone is bothering here. You don't understand the argument.

You’ve been pointing to counting stats like WAR in order to prove that Dome was better than Pie in 2009, while ignoring that Pie provided all of his value in a much smaller timeframe.

At the same time, you’re citing 93 AB worth of 2008 rate stats as evidence that Pie “stunk” as a Cub and will not be missed, ever.

I honestly don’t believe that you understand this argument, in any form.

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by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 5:14 PM CST up reply actions  

you pointed to a month he had 17 ABs

to how well he can produce, while later stating that he didnt have enough ABs to use any of the stats I have given

Besides, he hit just fine in his September callup in 2008 during the pennant drive.

by D98

so I guess its ok for you to use 17 ABs as a point in your stance, but I cannot use a larger small sample size to debate against it.

Can you send me the official rules of the debate, since i dont want to use 98 ABs which is too small, while you use 17 ABs which is not too small

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 5:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Then why did he regress in 2008?

One month doesn’t make a career. Just have August 2009 ask September 2009.

I think where the Cubs failed him was to teach him plate discipline. He struck-out too much in 2007 and 2008. Never takes enough walks. He might be getting better now.

"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver

by RiskyBusiness on Feb 24, 2010 4:32 PM CST up reply actions  

actually

if you look at his plate discipline on fangraphs, they are very close to the same in Baltimore as in Chicago

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 4:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Testicular surgery?

IIRC, he came back immediately after the surgery, but then he missed a bunch of time in early 2008, and actually wound up at extended spring training at one point.

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by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 5:04 PM CST up reply actions  

He also has been having trouble with his TPS reports too.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Mar 2, 2010 12:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Where's C-Pat?

Is he an invite to anyone’s camp? Gotta be 30-31 by now no kid, but still some value defensively and with his legs…just can’t get on base the poor guy never could hit besides one decent year with baltimore.

He and Pie do provide one skill the 2010 Cubs sorely lack: speed.

by QuincyCub on Feb 23, 2010 7:33 PM CST reply actions  

Yep.

Non-roster invitee.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 23, 2010 7:53 PM CST up reply actions  

It beats finding real work

Corey Patterson has enough latent athletic talent that he will probably be able to carve out a several year run as a Triple A ballplayer who gets a callup or three every season. Not bad work if you can get it I guess. Trinidad Hubbard and Calvin Murray hung on for a ridiculous amount of time doing the same sort of thing.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Feb 23, 2010 9:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Why, does one owe the other money?

;-)

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Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Feb 24, 2010 6:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Felix Pie is not one that got away

Six months from now he will have gone the way of Matt Murton in terms of Cub fan fondness for the player. The absolute zenith of Felix Pie’s major league career is as a 5th outfielder type. And even that role is one I have little faith he will be able to maintain on a consistent basis. He will spend the rest of his professional baseball existence hopping from Triple A team to big league club when need arises from injury.

Corey Patterson will actually prove out to have a distinctly “better” major league career than Pie.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Feb 23, 2010 9:07 PM CST reply actions  

Is this the picture

of Murton you speak of?

"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Feb 24, 2010 8:17 AM CST up reply actions  

Funny coz I'm not kidding at all.

I’ll take a photo this afternoon when I go home for lunch and post it.

by chilango2 on Feb 24, 2010 9:25 AM CST up reply actions  

No photo

but an oversized Jersey I can use as a nightshirt. I figured I would buy a remaindered one when he was traded and they only had extra large left.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 24, 2010 9:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Methinks you doth protest too much.

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by daver on Feb 24, 2010 8:36 AM CST up reply actions  

LF

Much of Pie’s value from last year comes from a UZR/150 of 19.4 while playing in LF and I don’t think anyone here is going to start an argument that Pie can actually contribute much as a LF. He got hot in the second half after another horrid start. We shall see, but I’m certainly not betting any money on him. I don’t see him hitting ML pitching.

by Luis on Feb 24, 2010 8:40 AM CST reply actions  

I'm confused.
In about half a season (252 PA), Pie posted 1.4 WAR. This is a higher production rate than Fukudome or Byrd achieved in 2009.

Fukudome posted a 2.3 WAR in 2009 and Byrd a 2.4. Are you saying if Pie would’ve played a full season his WAR would’ve exceeded both of those numbers?

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by daver on Feb 24, 2010 8:44 AM CST reply actions  

plus if Pie played LF in Balt

why are we trying to compare him to CF and RF?

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 12:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Another good question.

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by daver on Feb 24, 2010 1:05 PM CST up reply actions  

he played LF for Balt more than CF

so that makes your comparing him to our CF moot. He also was a part time player, ala Fontenot 2008, so saying he would produce the same in an everyday role is also moot.

As a Cub he played just well enough for Reed Johnson and Jim Edmonds to take his job.

He is not an everyday CF in MLB, easy as that. So why keep arguing he is when he has not been able to when given the chance.

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 3:40 PM CST up reply actions  

as i mention below

depends on how you measure “played more”

85 games played
41 in CF
44 in LF

flip side to measure

272.0 Innings in LF
311.2 Innings in CF

so technically either can be right, he played more in LF by games, and more in CF by innings.

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 3:51 PM CST up reply actions  

The fact that he made three 1-inning defensive-replacement LF appearances doesn't make him a LF.

Pie is a CF, and has been throughout his entire career. He’s good at it.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 4:31 PM CST up reply actions  

good, compared to us on BCB sure

good compared to MLB CFers, no.

His value as a Cub was a negative, and as an Oriole it was lower than Byrd or Fukudome were last season, so I have to disagree with you on this.

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 4:35 PM CST up reply actions  

His value was lower than Dome's by what metric?!

Kosuke was a horrific CF – he posted a -11.3 UZR as a CF.
Byrd has been good in the past, but he was a -6.0 last year as a CF.

Pie was a +1.6.

You’ve been citing WAR throughout this thread as evidence that Pie’s “Value was lower”. I’ll say it again – WAR is a counting stat, and Pie played half as much as those two did. In the time that he played, Pie was more valuable than either.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 4:49 PM CST up reply actions  

and you say time and time again he was good in Chicago

and the stats do not match that. Yoiu have pointed to one month of good, which is a bad season

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 4:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe if break it down into small bite-size portions you'll follow?

1. In 2008, Felix Pie had 93 AB, as a 23 year old. (A 23 year old coming off of Spring Training testicular surgery!!!)

2. That is not enough PT to make any kind of judgment whatsoever about a player. Especially not if you’re citing his WAR and UZR, for crying out loud.

3. However, this particular player also continued to hit at AAA – especially in the 2nd half, and hit very well in a September callup, even making the playoff roster.

4. The Cubs traded him after the season for absolutely nothing, and Pie had a very solid year as a 24 year old.

5. He’s also a cost-controlled, left-handed CF, which is exactly what this team desperately needed.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 5:01 PM CST up reply actions  

how many players tear up AAA

and do not match that production in MLB? Well lets start with Hoff, and Fox just for fun, and we can always build off that list

Sure both are small sample, but both also tore up AAA but have not done so, and yes both might have had a month where they looked good, making your smaller sample of Pie for a month in 2008 show a trend.

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 5:06 PM CST up reply actions  

the fact that you fail to see

that felix pie is 100% the player the cubs were looking for and spending millions of dollars on this offseason is simply amazing, i think im done with this thread.

bring back harden.

by kylejo on Feb 24, 2010 5:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I am not stating he was worthless

but he is not the savior of the 2009 team we were missing, nor would be he the reason that the 2010 would be a contender.

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 5:20 PM CST up reply actions  

his value

is millions of dollars, and we gave him away for absolutely nothing. there is a big problem in that, whether it is water under the bridge or not. its one of the many miserable moves of recent memory for jim hendry. i used to love the guy, aramis, lee, hell the barrett trade seemed good. but hendry has to go.

bring back harden.

by kylejo on Feb 24, 2010 5:23 PM CST up reply actions  

the millions of dollars value

at times people need to look at that like Beckett Monthly, Bluebook Value, A Comic Book Value, etc

the value in the book might give a certain worth, but its only truly worth what you can get for it, and it isnt always what the book says. If the most anyone is offering is Heilmann, then guess what his current worth is. Also, in 2009 as noted above, there was not much doing for the Orioles in any wish to move him

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 5:27 PM CST up reply actions  

completely agree

If Hendry is allowing the manager to make major personnel decisions (like many said he did with Baker) he absolutely needs to go!

Also, was Wuertz a call made by the manager too? Another terrible move..

The journey is the reward!

by wicubfan on Feb 25, 2010 1:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Because Pie is a CF, and Fukudome was our 2009 CF, and Byrd is our 2010 CF.

Pie played more games in CF last year than he did in LF.

When he played LF last year, it was solely b/c Adam Jones is firmly planted in center.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 3:29 PM CST up reply actions  

meaning his numbers last year were as a LF not CF

so that means comparing him to our CF when he was LF for Balt is moot

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 3:35 PM CST up reply actions  

FWIW, I guess it depends on how you judge "more"

in 2009 he played in 85 games for the Orioles, and 45 were in LF, which is more than he played in CF, but he played more innings in CF than LF in 2009 as well.

His UZR and UZR/150 are much better in LF as well

Fangraphs

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 3:45 PM CST up reply actions  

He got 1 more start as a CF, played 40 more innings and got more AB there

Pie obviously would come in to LF on occasion as a defensive replacement, while Adam Jones and Nick Markakis must not have needed as much help in that department.

The point being, CF is clearly his primary position, and has been throughout his entire professional career. It only makes sense to compare him to other CFs, because that’s what he would have played had he been a Cub in 2009.

However, if you really want to compare him to the Cubs 2009 LF, I’m sure he’d appreciate it!

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 4:26 PM CST up reply actions  

had he been a Cub in 2009

he would have been on the bench, playing all three OF spots, not CF. He also likely would have seen very little time, as he failed under the pressure of Chicago and has been able to play better with less pressure and less expectation in Baltimore.

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 4:28 PM CST up reply actions  

and again it depends on how you

want to put the “more” since he still played more games 44 > 41 in LF.

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 4:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, there are two ways of putting it, but one is wrong.

He played more as a CF in 2009 than he did as a LF. Substantially more.

“More games” is kind of silly. He had more defensive replacement LF games, because Reimold isn’t the glove that Jones and Markakis are. That doesn’t make him a LF.

Had he been a Cub in 2009, I assume that he would have wound up the everyday CF after Soriano finally hung it up, with Bradley in LF and Dome in RF. CF is his primary position.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 4:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Again I disagree

since his numbers as a Cub were all negative value, and his WAR etc last season also were below Fukudome (CF 2009) and Byrd (CF 2010). He did not produce as a Cub, and Hendry moved him, its not hard to understand why we got minimal in return. Look at his WAR as a Cub (0.3 and -0.2). When looking at MLB talent, AAA doesnt matter. If it mattered Hoff would be our starting 1B and Lee would have been moved. Fox wold be here as well starting.

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 4:38 PM CST up reply actions  

WAR is a counting stat. Pie only had half a season.

I don’t think that citing WAR helps your Pie argument, when the counterargument is that the guy never played.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 4:40 PM CST up reply actions  

WAR, UZR, UZR/150

all are negative, not just WAR alone, which is why i said ETC meaning not just WAR.

He is not missed by the Cubs, and he also will not be back anytime soon. Making it seem as if Pie gets us into the playoffs in 2009 is the same as saying playing Fox more in LF puts us in the playoffs, neither are make or break players for a team competing for a playoff spot, and Pie proved that when given the chance in a Cubs uniform

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 4:44 PM CST up reply actions  

98 at-bats. Those stats are completely irrelevant.

You cannot possibly be using WAR, UZR, or UZR/150 in rating Pie’s 2008 season. Are you?

(HINT – he only had 98 AB.)

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 4:50 PM CST up reply actions  

what does AB have to do with fielding?

and those are the stats which he produced. I could argue the stats he didnt produce, but those dont count, since he played just well enough to receive minimal playing time for a reason.

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 4:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Because looking at a player's UZR when they only played 39 games is insane?

You simply don’t appreciate what the stats you’re tossing out actually represent.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 5:02 PM CST up reply actions  

i used the same state for 2009 as 2008

and you conntinue to twist what i have said, including trying to jam everything i say into one stat, when I didnt do so. Can we agree to disagree, since the stats do say one thing (small sample or not) where the “what ifs” do not give any credability to what Pie might be based on crazy guesses

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 5:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Can anyone understand what this guy is saying?

I don’t even think that these are sentences. :)

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 5:15 PM CST up reply actions  

dude

its a counting stat. it accumulates. its like saying he only had 10 RBI!!! expecting that he would have a full seasons total of say, 75.

bring back harden.

by kylejo on Feb 24, 2010 5:15 PM CST up reply actions  

yet both of you point to a month of 17 ABs

to argue using those stats, while dismissing any other stat given, no matter if it is OBP, BA, SLG, UZR, UZR/150, WAR, etc. I guess once I am informed which stats are able to be used, then we can debate. And using 17 ABs as a debate point while dismissing 98 or more ABs as too small is a contradiction each of your own point

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 5:22 PM CST up reply actions  

there's a difference between saying

that in one month, he was hitting at a certain rate, and then saying over a particular 98 AB sequence, he hit .xxx

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Feb 25, 2010 12:58 PM CST up reply actions  

im not disputing that

but if I am told 98 AB is too small, then how can the same person point to 17 AB as evidence

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 25, 2010 1:57 PM CST up reply actions  

I always like Pie

liked his attitude, appeared to work hard, However he is a situational OF. He will never hit lefties, and his swing is still prone to strikeouts. He will be the 4th OF off the bench in Baltimore.

by Grockcubs on Feb 24, 2010 8:52 AM CST reply actions  

"Never hit lefties and his swing is prone to strikeouts"

Sort of like Curtis Granderson.

at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!

by N Oakley on Feb 24, 2010 8:56 AM CST up reply actions  

I would confuse Pie

for Granderson. Granderson has a much better track record even though he can not hit lefties, at least the last two years.

by Grockcubs on Feb 24, 2010 11:02 AM CST up reply actions  

they had the same

minor league track record, seriously nearly identical

give Pie time and opportunity and he should be something similar to Granderson

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by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 24, 2010 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

As Granderson regresses to norms versus lefties and makes

his one year with decent numbers against lefties look like an anomoly, Pie and Granderson may become more comparable. In fact, Pie may become the better player with possibly a better glove and much smaller contract.

at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!

by N Oakley on Feb 24, 2010 12:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I will always remember the throw he made in his first game.

When he threw a runner out at the plate in the best throw I had seen at Wrigley in a long while. I think the Cubs will regret
trading him, but they had no choice when Lou would not play him. Maybe they could have bulked him up, had him grow a beard and told Lou he was really a 30 year old minor league player and he would have given him a shot.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 24, 2010 9:41 AM CST reply actions   2 recs

Posts like this

are why I think this site should be shut down from Dec. 1 to March 1.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 24, 2010 10:11 AM CST reply actions  

Yes but you have a wife and child to keep you busy

The rest of us living in Mom’s basement have to have some outlet for our intelect.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 24, 2010 10:18 AM CST up reply actions  

You are right Worf. The analysis and banter is so much

better between March 1 and Dec. 1. (See Eric Hanna)

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Feb 24, 2010 10:22 AM CST up reply actions  

Believe me

I wish this post had the comic potential of Eric’s

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 24, 2010 10:30 AM CST up reply actions  

Maybe not the comic potential, but certainly it has the absurdity of the Hanna post.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Feb 24, 2010 10:57 AM CST up reply actions  

IT DOES NOT

YOU GUYS ARE CRAZY!!!!!

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 24, 2010 12:27 PM CST up reply actions  

hah!

then i shall complain from the last out of the WS to the last day of november

by jesus christos on Feb 24, 2010 4:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Amen brother

Felix Pie sucked as a Cub. Sucked. And he did indeed have opportunity. And, there is NOTHING to suggest he is on the path to a viable major league career. Not unless you absolutely cannot stomach parting ways with a 5th friggin outfielder.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Feb 24, 2010 6:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Finally, a voice of reason. Wait!

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Feb 24, 2010 6:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Whatever...

Funny how mid-season 2009 Andy McPhail tried to move Felix Pie with zero takers. So I guess all sorts of baseball people besides the big bad prospect hating Felix Pie thought the player was / is nothingness defined.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Feb 24, 2010 6:07 PM CST up reply actions  

"prospect hating Lou PIneilla" that is

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Feb 24, 2010 6:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Slow down cowboy, I was agreeing with you. I think the Cubs got about as

much as they were going to get from Pie. I’m not not pining for him to come back.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Feb 24, 2010 6:15 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree with both of you on this one

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 6:37 PM CST up reply actions  

They could have gotten more from Pie if they had traded him before the 2008 season.

If Lou was going to be this obstinate about it, they should have traded him while his value was higher.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 24, 2010 6:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Slow down cowboy - now that's funny!

"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver

by RiskyBusiness on Feb 24, 2010 8:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Why do you think he had zero takers?

There was a report that he was gauging interest, but I don’t even remember hearing any rumored trades.

Moreover, if MacPhail was “listening to offers”, he was obviously receiving offers. You and I have no idea what those offers may have been. MacPhail obviously didn’t trade him, so clearly the offers weren’t high enough for MacPhail’s opinion of Pie.

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by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 7:04 PM CST up reply actions  

I think 1.4 WAR is about average.

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Feb 24, 2010 10:28 AM CST via mobile reply actions  

The poster's point is...

that this 1.4 WAR was done with a relatively small amount of PA’s… 252. It’s a small sample size, though I agree that Pie will be a nice major league player when he’s 28-29. Hard to believe that he’s only 25.

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by IowaCubs- on Feb 24, 2010 11:15 AM CST up reply actions  

why...

couldn’t he have played the Joey Gathright role on the roster, which was eventually replaced by Scales/Hoffpauir/Fox/R. Johnson? and then when MB was hurt let Fukudome slide over to RF

i mean… heck the Orioles only created 280 or so PA’s for him, he wasn’t getting consistent time over there. We could’ve done the EXACT same thing

instead we gave 257 PA’s to Hoffpauir, 138 to Scales, 186 to Reed Johnson

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by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 24, 2010 12:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly.

Blame this one on Lou. I believe most of the front office wanted Pie to get a shot, but Lou didn’t like him for some reason, eventually forcing the trade.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 24, 2010 12:28 PM CST up reply actions  

You can't let a field manager dictate trades. You just can't.

If that sort of thing is happening, why bother having a GM at all?

The field manager is entitled to his opinion, but the decision to trade Pie is on Hendry.

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by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 12:46 PM CST up reply actions  

i am sure there is more behind the scene

than Lou would not play him, being the only reason he was traded.

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by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2010 12:57 PM CST up reply actions  

You can blame it

on whomever you like in the organization, but again, I think he’s got a better ceiling than most others do. If your highest and best use for him is as a 5th outfielder, the ball club needs to get something more useful in return, and move on.

Unfortunately, the return here was Aaron Heilman. If Pie was traded earlier, when it was first clear he didn’t fit into Lou’s on-field strategy, I think that could have been a better deal for the Cubs, and maybe we aren’t having this conversation.

by Damen Jackson on Feb 24, 2010 1:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Agree and Disagree

There’s no reason Pie couldn’t have played the Gathright role.

But if the entire organization sans Lou loved Pie, then there’s just no way Jim doesn’t stick to his guns and say he’s going to be your fifth outfielder. It’s been said around here that Jim cares enough about his prospects that he’s willing to trade them so they can get more playing time (like Jake Fox). I don’t agree with this philosophy, but that’s what seemed to happen with Pie.

by shoemile on Feb 24, 2010 1:57 PM CST up reply actions  

And in the end,

Pie turned into part of Aaron Heilman. Keeping Pie would have at least been less damaging than that.

I can’t say that I expressed great outrage at Pie being traded away. Probably because the Cubs telegraphed his trade away.

"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver

by RiskyBusiness on Feb 24, 2010 8:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Rec'd

"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts

by DGU on Feb 28, 2010 7:06 AM CST up reply actions  

Green'ed.

Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.

by Ryno Runner on Feb 28, 2010 12:49 PM CST up reply actions  

in July, Baltimore would have taken little in return for Pie

MacPhail told MLB.com “I think the market would indicate that (Pie has) greater value than just a waiver claim”. http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090707&content_id=5748504&vkey=news_bal&fext=.jsp&c_id=bal

Nobody offered much for him. Pie finally got some playing time and produced. Adam Jones is solid in center, and Pie simply doesnt provide enough offense to play left or right.

I think Pie is better than Fuld, and will have a better career.

by holy mackeral on Feb 24, 2010 2:18 PM CST reply actions  

i would like to say

that complaining about pie wont bring him back

by jesus christos on Feb 24, 2010 5:24 PM CST reply actions  

I kind of look at Felix Pie, the same way

that I look at Angel Pagan. We should have kept both of them, but it’s in the past and there’s nothing we can do about it. I felt like we should have kept alot of people. I have a hard time letting go. Mark Grace, Moises Alou, Juan Pierre, Jaque Jones, and the most recent Reed Johnson, I feel like we let go to easily. There’s nothing wrong with at least pretending we want to keep these guys here.

by alabamacubbie on Feb 24, 2010 10:55 PM CST reply actions  

Angel Pagan?

Seriously?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 25, 2010 8:01 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes, Angel Pagan

Pagan batted .306 last year, with 56 K’s, & 14 SB. Alfonso Soriano batted .241 with 118 K’s & 9 SB. Sure Soriano is going to have more HR’s than Pagan (2009: 20 to 9), but Pagan doesn’t swing at every curveball in the dirt like Soriano does. He doesn’t do that hop crap that Soriano does. Last but not least he’s faster, younger, definately cheaper and less injury prone that Soriano. He’s turning into an everyday starter for the NY Mets. When compared to Fukudome…well don’t get me started on him.

by alabamacubbie on Feb 25, 2010 9:55 AM CST up reply actions  

He was last year. However --

No one was lamenting his loss when he left the Cubs. He had a nice year, but hardly indicative of someone they dropped the ball on.

Not incidentally, alabamacubbie references Pagan’s stolen bases, but what I heard/read about his overall baserunning is that he makes Ryan Theriot look like a genius on the bases.

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

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by Shanghai Badger on Feb 25, 2010 11:10 AM CST up reply actions  

I have watched some Met's games,

but I have watched, probably like yourself, all Cubs games last year. Soriano came through some of the time last year, but Angel Pagan came through for the Mets more often. When Soriano was at the plate, I knew what was coming, he knew what was coming…a curveball low and away. Everytime he swung and 80% of the time he missed that curveball. His strikezone is laughable when it comes to the Cubs really depending on his bat in a could win situation. Now don’t get me wrong, a fastball down the middle, he blasts, further than Pagan. But Pagan last year was more consistent, that is all I am trying to defend.

by alabamacubbie on Feb 25, 2010 11:53 AM CST up reply actions  

As Yankees manager-in-waiting in '82, I wonder what Lou thought...

…of that Willie McGee for Bob Sykes deal? As we know, he’s a great judge of talent in low-pressure markets like Cincinnati and Seattle, but the need to win now generally has kept him from experimenting with the Cubs, with the notable exceptions of Marmol and the boys from LSU.

It’s tough to argue against his use of Edmonds in 2008, but I still can’t understand why both Edmonds and Pie were dropped before last season. The more I think about the combined 2009 performance of both Lou and Hendry, the more I understand what could be in store for Starlin Castro.

"C'mon Freeman, throw the ball somewhere!" Brickhouse, incensed, 5/15/58

"Welcome to Wrigley Field, Mr. Bah-oo-tah!" Brickhouse, rubbing it in, 7/6/60

by ernaga on Feb 25, 2010 8:39 AM CST reply actions  

I understand Edmonds wanted a real contract and wouldn't play

for what the Cubs paid in 2008, but knowing they couldn’t afford Edmonds, why dump Pie and then sign his less effective and more expensive replacement in Gathright. I still get lost contemplating all this.

may addition by subtraction be real

by N Oakley on Feb 25, 2010 8:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed - there were like 4 types of downside, and no upside, in that chain of decisions.

We had the aging, but still effective, left-handed Edmonds in CF, platooning with Johnson, with the very young and raw left-handed Pie backing him up. A pretty great situation.

Instead of doing the obvious thing and managing a transition from the older player to the younger player, we jettisoned everybody, took a flyer on the hope that Dome could play CF (he could not), threw a million dollars at Joey Gathright to be the backup (which lasted a month or so before we realized this was a horrible mistake), and signed Milton Bradley to a $30M deal to play RF, hoping that he could bat effectively lefthanded (he could not) and that he would replace or improve upon Edmonds’ production from 2008 (didn’t work) while remaining at least relatively sane (holy crap that didn’t work).

How do you wind up spending $11M more on your OF, and trading your #1 prospect, in order to get worse offensively AND defensively?

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by D98 on Feb 25, 2010 9:21 AM CST up reply actions  

Hopefully, those mistakes have been rectified.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 25, 2010 10:36 AM CST up reply actions  

they haven't been rectified

we’re not going to find someone who could produce pie’s value (production vs. contract), instead of a giant albatross contract in MB, we have it in Silva

Rectified wasn’t likely to happen, not being compounded should be the goal

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by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 25, 2010 11:15 AM CST up reply actions  

Lou was manager-in-waiting in '82?

That was a full four years before he was named Yankee manager. I doubt he had a manager’s view of that deal at the time.

A worse deal the Yankees made in the same year was trading Fred McGriff, Mike Morgan and Dave Collins to Toronto for Dale Murray and Tom Dodd — that has to be one of the worst trades in recent history.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 25, 2010 9:08 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't mean to imply that Lou had anything to do with the McGee trade,

only that he was in a good position to see the results and hear the fan reaction in New York once McGee became such a force for the Cardinals. What I am implying is that Pie appears to be the same type of player as McGee, and that Lou made a big mistake either in letting him go or forcing him out.

"C'mon Freeman, throw the ball somewhere!" Brickhouse, incensed, 5/15/58

"Welcome to Wrigley Field, Mr. Bah-oo-tah!" Brickhouse, rubbing it in, 7/6/60

by ernaga on Feb 25, 2010 10:48 AM CST up reply actions  

By the time McGee was the age Pie is now...

… he had three full major league seasons, finished 3rd in ROY voting, and made an All-Star team.

I like Pie as a player, but he’s no Willie McGee.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 25, 2010 10:58 AM CST up reply actions  

eh...

his line when he made the AS team: .286/.314/.374, OPS+ 90

McGee had a strong career, playing 18 seasons in the bigs and had some notable great seasons in his late 20’s but his career line was: .295/.333/.396 with an OPS+ 100

Based on minor league track record, Pie should be a better hitter than that

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by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 25, 2010 11:20 AM CST up reply actions  

You're 100% wrong.

But that’s not unusual.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Feb 25, 2010 7:44 PM CST up reply actions  

That's a pretty dubious comparison...

…given their respective ages and injury histories.

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by daver on Feb 26, 2010 8:46 AM CST up reply actions  

prove it.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 2, 2010 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

And when there was no Pie

We ate Byrd…

"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman

by BucknerKongCardenal on Feb 25, 2010 10:20 PM CST reply actions  

The Pie was from the Baker.

Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.

by Ryno Runner on Feb 26, 2010 7:26 PM CST up reply actions  

and it was DLEEICIOUS

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions  

No Thanks...

When he was with the Cubs Pie led the team in Frequent Flyer Miles from Iowa to Chicago and back. He would spend a month in Iowa, hit lights out for a could weeks and get called back… He’s be good for a week or so and then stinks on ice…

Why would we want him back…???

- Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
- Germans?
- Forget it, he's rolling.

by Endrick on Feb 28, 2010 4:20 PM CST reply actions  

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