I want more Pie
by FTLOTC on Feb 23, 2010 5:40 PM CST
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PrintApologies if this has already been discussed recently, but I just happened to glance at Felix Pie's performance with the O's last season and was a bit surprised. In about half a season (252 PA), Pie posted 1.4 WAR. This is a higher production rate than Fukudome or Byrd achieved in 2009.
While Fukudome and Byrd hit better (each posted a RC+ of 108), Pie was still about league average at the plate (98 RC+).
Meanwhile, Pie is clearly the better defender, with a career OF UZR/150 of 10.4, while Dome and Byrd boast respective career UZR/150s of 2.7 and 4.2.
Perhaps with a bit more patience and appropriate valuation of defense, the Cubs could have had a young cost-controlled player producing at the same rate as their recent free agent signees.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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You're absolutely right.
But it’s kind of water under the bridge, no? He’s gone and not coming back. Let’s move on.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I want DeRosa!
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 23, 2010 8:03 PM CST up reply actions
I think Lou Brock might still be available.??
IF IT TAKES FOREVER!!
by Cubfansince1957 on Feb 23, 2010 8:25 PM CST up reply actions
i hear this kid Josh Hamilton can hit
should we grab him in the Rule 5 draft?
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
me too
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
by cooliogirl47 on Feb 26, 2010 7:33 PM CST up reply actions
I can see 'im...
…everyday at AT&T! Not that I would.
"With Chance on first, and Evers on third,
Great things from the Cubs will soon be heard."
I saw him last night on MLB tv
he was on a talk show thing with his new team :(
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
I caught part of that, too
The way he talked about almost signing with the Giants three years ago – makes me think that he could run for office when his career ends.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 2, 2010 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
lol, yeah, his sainthood level dropped a little for me
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
by cooliogirl47 on Mar 2, 2010 10:13 AM CST up reply actions
I was thinking...
…about going over to their FanFest and seeing what he had to say for himself, but I couldn’t bring myself to.
"With Chance on first, and Evers on third,
Great things from the Cubs will soon be heard."
Except that Felix Pie is incapable of hitting major league pitching
….to the point where Baltimore isn’t counting him much in their plans. So big deal that Pie FINALLY tasted a mild dose of hitting success in 2009. Just as soon as AL pitchers have a book on him it will be back to him struggling to hit over the Mendoza line.
I’ll also hereby predict that Pie spends a good chunk of 2010 playing Triple A ball for the umpteenth time.
I was right to cut bait on Pie.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
except that
Pie actually improved his 2nd time around the league last year
his OPS in the 1st half in 119 PA was .654
his OPS in the 2nd half in 162 PA was .842
and pretty much all of the 2nd half indicators are in line with his minor league career
2nd half BB Rate = 8.6%
Minor League BB Rate = 7.4%
2nd half K Rate = 19.1%
Minor League K Rate = 19.1%
2nd Half EXBH Rate = 9.3%
Minor League EXBH Rate = 9.0%
It looks more like a legitimate improvement to be what he was always expected to be rather than anything else. Pie’s never going to be a “star” by traditional offensive metrics, but he’ll likely be an above average player through the next few years and an incredible value given his salary
The mishandling of Pie is one of the biggest indictments on the current regime there is
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 23, 2010 6:06 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Agreed.
From what I understand, it’s mostly Lou’s doing. The rest of the organization was actually behind Pie, but Lou wouldn’t play him.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If that's the case, then it's actually on Hendry.
No way a GM should let a field manager dictate something so important regarding roster composition.
There’s also no way that a GM should, after kowtowing to his field manager on something so important, turn the young asset into Aaron Heilman, and then flip Aaron Heilman for more or less nothing 1 year later.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 12:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree, up to a point.
The field manager should have some input. But in some cases I think Hendry gives his managers TOO much input. He did the same thing with Baker.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Maybe you've already got this question
but why is your name suddenly Al Yellon? Well, I don’t mean suddenly, I’m sure you’ve had it your entire life, but have I entered into an alternate BCB universe? I was walking around campus today and swore I heard my alarm going off, is this just a dream? I’m so confused!
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
Answered in other threads.
But here’s the answer in this one. There is a reason for this. It will be revealed soon.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You are such a man of mystery and intrigue
you are the most interesting man in the world!
you can’t get much by that #$%@ ballhawk -- LT
Al, when I first joined BCB I mispelled my user name and you told me it couldn't be changed
Now I see the Al Yellons of the world live by a different set of standards.
It must be nice living in your castle, eating your foie gras, looking down at us users who can’t spell their own names and have no power to change it.
Apparently my sarcasm doesn't translate well on BCB
Do I have to resort to adding an animated sarcasm picture on every post to not get people annoyed at me?
Maybe not every one.
But this one, maybe.
At the time I told you it couldn’t be changed, that was true. Things have changed since then.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I figured as much
It wasn’t a big deal to create a new account.
I thought implying you were eating foie gras in a castle was tongue in cheek enough. If I had used caviar in a mansion instead, you would have known I was angry. ;)
I think the foie gras was a clue
Al hates foie gras. He only eats beluga caviar with his Big Gulps.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 25, 2010 8:13 AM CST up reply actions
That was a fun few hours
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Feb 25, 2010 10:43 AM CST up reply actions
And I agree with you, up to a point.
I don’t think it’s simply Lou says, Jim does, but maybe you don’t either.
If it is though, then I understand something like a Fontenot over Blanco at short coming from Lou. But when it’s something as huge as the Pie situation, then it’s absolutely foolish to let your manager (especially one who planned to only manage two more years at the time) dictate whether or not your #1 prospect remains with the organization. But again, I don’t think it was that simple.
I agree...
…baseball teams win and lose (especially over the long haul) much more on what their GM does and not the manager.
If your GM doesn’t make good decisions, it will bite you no matter how high your payroll is.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
This absurd argument again....
Just because everyone agrees – and it’s worth repeating that EVERYONE AGREES – the final responsibility is on Hendry doesn’t mean a fan can’t investigate how a decision was made and who pushed for different scenarios.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
It's like going to a Civil War Symposium
and hearing a smart and detailed presentation on the mistakes Winfield Scott mande, and then someone standing up afterwards and asking the question, “Yabbut, Abraham Lincoln was the president, so isn’t it all his fault?”
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
I'd blame McClellan way before Scott.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 28, 2010 9:57 PM CST up reply actions
I heard...
…the organization was more split on Pie, and that it wasn’t just Lou who didn’t think he was ready.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Really?
I heard it was mostly Lou, that the rest of the organization wanted to see him get an extended shot.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yep...
…it was my typical source (which is pretty good), but there is the chance he had it wrong.
I heard Lou (and about half the organization) wanted Pie to start in the minors in 08, but Hendry and a few others wanted him to go north with the club. From what I heard, Lou went along with this, but he did make it clear he thought Pie needed more seasoning in the minors.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
You should never over season a Pie
A little cinnamon maybe, but not too much.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 25, 2010 6:12 PM CST up reply actions
Good point!
I’d settle for some vanilla ice cream.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I'd prefer a dollop of WHIPed cream
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
by eths on Mar 2, 2010 10:55 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Rec'd
This post clearly shows how DCF is one of the most underrated posters on the board and of course he’s spot on here. More people need to pay attention to him when he’s talking about Felix Pie.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
lulz
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Feb 25, 2010 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
My kind of Pie
"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will
Shoulda, coulda
What about the other ex-cubs – The patterson brothers, Kerry Wood, Rich HIll, Sean Gallagher, Neifi perez, Michael Barrett, Ronny Cedeno.. Yeah, it would have been nice to have to predict his future, but the list of Cubs who left wrigley do become all stars probably pales in comparison to the list of ex-cub disappointments.
I really wish Pie the best, but this year I’ll be Cheering for Byrd and Kosuke. It’s cool.. we may win a few games this year even if we don’t have Pie.
by DisCUBbobulated on Feb 23, 2010 6:30 PM CST reply actions
um ...
are you bemoaning the Cubs moves to cut ties with Neifi Perez, Michael Barrett and Ronny Cedeno? Hardy “Cubs who left wrigley do [sic] become all stars.”
Yeah, but the difference was the Cubs held on too long to
Corey, Hill, Barrett & Cedeno until they had no more value. With Pie, they traded too early. I’m not sure how E-Pat, Wood & Neifi enter this discussion.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
I hope one lesson we've learned is...
the importance of making players prove themselves each rung of the minor leagues ladder. Make them master Boise before taking on Peoria. Peoria before Daytona,and Tennessee before Iowa.
We shouldn’t rush the options or Arbitration clock because someone is new and shiny.
Pie did those things....
the Cubs just never gave him an extended run at the big league level
Corey Patterson was rushed, Pie… not at all
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 23, 2010 8:29 PM CST up reply actions
Yeahhhhh....
I’m going to have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one Dartmouth. For as much as I admire your keen intellect and baseball objectiveness you are way off your rocker on Mr. Felix Pie. I just don’t see it. In fact, I’ve never seen it. Felix Pie is Jose Macias redux. That is NOT something to get excited about.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
that's fine
i think a macias comparison is ludicrous. Jose Macias was a utility player who added little defensive value beyond positional replacement. Pie is at the worst an above average defensive CF who adds a ton of value with his glove
Macias career minor league OPS was .734 while being OLD for his league
Felix Pie’s career minor league OPS was .825 while being YOUNG for his league
I get that you dabble in the exaggerative definitives as your “schtick”, but this one really makes no sense. There’s no comparison between the two players at all….
But you’re generally not one to get into discussions about this stuff, so i’ll simply leave you with this
how about you set the terms for whether Pie would be a success or not this year with the bat, what would his OPS have to be for you to consider him a success or his WAR? Put a number to it and let’s see if Pie can beat it.
He’s not even 25 and you’ve written him off
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 23, 2010 9:23 PM CST up reply actions
I wrote Felix Pie off when he was 23
The hyperbole aside, Felix Pie is in my opinion never going to hit major league pitching to a sufficient enough level. Certaintly not to a level where he will ever have job security at the big league level. Like I said somewhere else, I envision his “future” as continually shuttling between Triple A and the bigs for a procession of major league teams.
Perhaps a more apt comparison without all the schtick? A very poor man’s Juan Encarnacion. Sorry, but I won’t lose sleep over that brand of commodity leaving the nest.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
two things
1) you never set a standard that Pie could potentially surpass and you’d admit defeat. I’m willing to admit that if he’s not a 2 WAR/year player during his prime years(26-30) i’d be surprised and admit defeat. Since WAR is a counting stat its dependent on him being a starter
2) Having a Pie on the roster would’ve prevented us from wasting 3 years and 15 million on Marlon Byrd. That has value. Even getting league average production or slightly worse on a cost controlled contract allows the team to have larger contracts at other points of the diamond
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 23, 2010 9:42 PM CST up reply actions
Well....
I can’t stand the fact that Jim Hendry is perpetually in the market for flawed and expensive free agent outfielders. But that said I do not believe Felix Pie could have sufficiently held down the fort in centerfield…even in a platoon situation. I’m not sold on his hitting ability at all. His on-base skills are not good and his run production value simply not there. You can’t bury a guy like that in the #8 hole all season. Not unless you are the Big Red Machine teams of the mid 70s and had the luxury of dumping Cesar Geronimo in the # 8 hole.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
Sigh...
It was a simple request. Set a threshold in either OPS or WAR at which performance above it would show you he actually does have the ability to hit major league pitching
or
performance below would make you right.
I like to think that the mere chance that you can quote yourself in your sig for being right about something would entice you to man up and throw a number out there. Looks like you’ll just change the subject and never return to this. Your act is so tired and old.
Follow me on Twitter: @brandonrifkin
That's ridiculous.
Pie succeeded and eventually starred at every minor league stop, despite being consistently young for his league by at least 1 year, and often two.
If you “don’t see it”, that’s because you’re putting an inordinate amount of weight on his 250-odd plate appearances as a Cub, completely ignoring what he did for BAL last year, and completely ignoring his minor league accomplishments.
You probably would have traded Colby Rasmus when he was hitting .190 after 250 plate appearances last year, too.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
He got into trouble with options
We dumped him for too little because he had no options left (iirc), and Lou didn’t trust him. When did we start burning through his options?
when we yanked him around in '08
was the biggest issue….
they entered the season with him as the all-glove little bat CF, then lou got frustrated and started playing reed johnson over him at which point they sent Pie down to get regular AB’s and took a flier on Edmonds
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 24, 2010 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
We had room on the MLB roster for Joey Gathright.
Felix Pie’s option year status was NOT an issue at the beginning of the 2009 season. There was plenty of room on the 25-man.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Eventually Starred?
I’m not seeing that in his minor league stats. 2006 in AAA and he has almost a 3/1 K/BB ratio. Minors or MLB, I’m still not seeing any sense of plate discipline.
I think the Cubs rushed Pie like they rushed Patterson. I don’t think they ever taught either player to shorten his swing.
"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 24, 2010 1:25 PM CST up reply actions
why would you shorten his swing?
he’s a gap-power hitter, that’s his role. He’s never going to be a disciplined leadoff hitter.
The problem was the Cubs decided after he had success at every stop doing the things he’d done his whole life, that they’d ask him to completely change his approach at the major league level (before he even had much of a chance to fail)
They tried to fit a square peg into a round hole by trying to make him a disciplined, bunting, leadoff hitter. His best asset has always been his gap-power, speed, and defense. They decided to de-emphasize his offensive tools and ask him to become something different than he ever was
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 24, 2010 2:50 PM CST up reply actions
Shorter swing does not reduce power
Plenty of players have hit for power with a short, compact speed that enables them to wait longer before committing to a pitch.
Being a disciplined hitter is not just for leadoff hitters. Sluggers and gap hitters need this skills as well.
"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 24, 2010 4:35 PM CST up reply actions
agreed
discipline isn’t just for any subset
but he’d succeeded his whole life and instead of allowing to do what got him to this level, the Cubs immediately tried to change him
it makes little sense
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 24, 2010 5:27 PM CST up reply actions
In 2006 at AAA he was 21 years old.
Check out how he did in 2007. I’d call that “eventually starring” at that level.
The Cubs absolutely did NOT rush Pie. They did precisely the opposite – they promoted him from each level after absolutely dominant years, and he continued to excel with each promotion, despite being the youngest player at each stop.
Then, after 7 years of coaching him up through our minor league system, they completely cut bait and traded him for absolutely nothing.
Pie’s August 2009 would have come in awfully handy for last year’s Cubs. I don’t think that we had a single outfielder post a month like that all year. Plus, he could play CF, which Fukudome could not.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
jsut curious
did it occur to anyone that Pie could not produce under the pressure of Chicago Sports Media and Cub Fans who expect production NOW?
We have seen players who were good elsewhere bomb here under the pressure, then go on to be successful once they left Wrigley Field (LaTroy Hawkins might be the best example, but there are others as well)
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
I don't give any credence to that.
He barely played at all for the Cubs – certainly not enough to be considered a “bomb”. Besides, he hit just fine in his September callup in 2008 during the pennant drive.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
just because you dont give it any credence
does not mean that you are correct. He did fail in Chicago under the pressure, now you can blame it on whatever you want to, but it doesnt change that he batted 241 had a 318 OBP and had a negative WAR value for the 2008 season.
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
If he "failed", then literally every other player in MLB is a "failure."
1. How many MLB players do you think have ever posted a .241/.312/.325 line over 98 AB?
I’d venture to say “all of them”.
2. I don’t think that you understand how WAR works. It’s not a rate stat.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I guess i need to only use one stat per reply
instead of using more than one for you to try and register.
plain and simple
PIE STUNK AS A CUB AND IS NOT MISSED
there, no stat for you to misunderstand or to try and group into one thing.
fyi the word AND means that I am using more than one point in my reply, and I did not state that the 241/318/325 is WAR, it was nothing more than another piece of evidence
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
I assume you would have traded Colby Rasmus after his April-May 2009.
I don’t think you understand the idea of small sample sizes, or the concept behind the WAR/UZR stats you’re citing. I’m actually baffled as to what you are talking about.
But for the record, to say that a player “stunk”, or “failed” after 93 AB of .241/.318/.325 as a 23 year old, is just kind of…. dumb. It doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. Frankly, there are people who have had MVP seasons that have had 93 AB stretches in which they hit .241. Can you follow?
I mean, Colby Rasmus’ entire 2009 wasn’t that much better in terms of rate stats, and he was substantially worse than that through his first 200-odd at-bats. I can assume you would have called him a “failure” and traded him for Aaron Heilman, right?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Feb 24, 2010 4:56 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
he has not been able to hold a starting job
for the Cubs or Baltimore. C-Pat was the same way.
I am done debating with you, as I will point to what he has done (or lack of) while you can continue to state what you wish to, while wanting to avoid what he actually did produce.
Small sample or not, it is the reality of what he has done
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
I'm not sure exactly what you're "pointing to."
I mean, you’re citing a player’s WAR in a year in which he had 98 AB.
Why don’t you argue that Jason Heyward sucks because his MLB WAR is 0.0 and he can’t even be found on the career HR leaderboard?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
and again you skip all the evidence to pick what you wish to
congrats
again, lets agree to disagree, since you want to prove something Pie is when he has not been that, while I have given you the facts of what he has been (small sample or not)
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
Pie was good in 2009. He was phenomenal in the 2nd half of 2009.
He would have helped the 2009 Cubs immensely. He would help the 2010 Cubs immensely. The Cubs acted stupidly in trading him. Your arguments are nonsensical and difficult to follow.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
isnt half a seaosn a small sample size
I am jsut trying to get the handle on what is a big enough sample size and what isnt, since you have stated as small as 17 ABs once, told me 98 was too small, and now you step to half a season.
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
"he did fail in chicago under the pressure," ha what?
month of september, 2008 playoff run, pie’s line:
.300 .391 .450 .841
you sir, are mistaken.
the problem with the pie trade goes beyond what pie was for the cubs or what he will become, its about what we received in return. absolutely nothing.
bring back harden.
again one month
well, if I am wrong using small samples as D98 states, how can you use a smaller sample? The season of 2008 he flopped, and he had ONE month in a six month season where he put up decent numbers, not exactly a good argument point IMHO
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
im giving you
the pressure situation. ha and you’re the one trying to use the small sample sizes.
take a bigger sample, pie’s line last year:
.266 .326 .437 .763
pretty much fukudome, but better defense.
bring back harden.
let me use the D98 defense
but Pie played less, so it doesnt count
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
haha
“it doesnt count,” that’s classic.
its harder to put together good offensive stats as a part time player. his .171 ISO last season also looks promising.
he’s fukudome minus the OBP but with more power and better defense.
bring back harden.
FWIW
the September 2008 month that has been pointed to in this thread
he had a total of 8 AB at home and 9 on the road, pointing to that is beyond hilarious.
Now, D98 has continued to state that his ABs are not enough, so yes that is the defense used by him, so why would it not be the same when comparing Fukudome and Pie in 2009?
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
the pressure situations!
there felix sat at the plate, the scent of pine tar on his nose and the cheers of 40,000 fans screaming in his ears. september baseball with first place on the line. would pie choke in the pressure!?! will the fans and media get to him!? NO! he says i will hit to the tune of .300 in my 20 valiant september call up at bats!
bring back harden.
for 8 ABs in Chicago
and that is how you will prove he didnt fail from any of the Chicago pressure? Seriously?
He was 3 for 8 in Chicago, under the Chicago pressure of Chicago Fans and Chicago media being right there.
Now in a 17 AB stretch, you can argue in favor of ANY PLAYER in MLB history, since you can pick any 17 AB stretch you wanted, right?
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
and it was for all his career
as a Cub, since both 2007 and 2008 they were in the hunt.
again if 98 ABs is too small, then 17 is not on the radar.
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
I don't know why anyone is bothering here. You don't understand the argument.
You’ve been pointing to counting stats like WAR in order to prove that Dome was better than Pie in 2009, while ignoring that Pie provided all of his value in a much smaller timeframe.
At the same time, you’re citing 93 AB worth of 2008 rate stats as evidence that Pie “stunk” as a Cub and will not be missed, ever.
I honestly don’t believe that you understand this argument, in any form.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
you pointed to a month he had 17 ABs
to how well he can produce, while later stating that he didnt have enough ABs to use any of the stats I have given
Besides, he hit just fine in his September callup in 2008 during the pennant drive.
by D98
so I guess its ok for you to use 17 ABs as a point in your stance, but I cannot use a larger small sample size to debate against it.
Can you send me the official rules of the debate, since i dont want to use 98 ABs which is too small, while you use 17 ABs which is not too small
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
Then why did he regress in 2008?
One month doesn’t make a career. Just have August 2009 ask September 2009.
I think where the Cubs failed him was to teach him plate discipline. He struck-out too much in 2007 and 2008. Never takes enough walks. He might be getting better now.
"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 24, 2010 4:32 PM CST up reply actions
actually
if you look at his plate discipline on fangraphs, they are very close to the same in Baltimore as in Chicago
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
Testicular surgery?
IIRC, he came back immediately after the surgery, but then he missed a bunch of time in early 2008, and actually wound up at extended spring training at one point.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
He also has been having trouble with his TPS reports too.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Where's C-Pat?
Is he an invite to anyone’s camp? Gotta be 30-31 by now no kid, but still some value defensively and with his legs…just can’t get on base the poor guy never could hit besides one decent year with baltimore.
He and Pie do provide one skill the 2010 Cubs sorely lack: speed.
It beats finding real work
Corey Patterson has enough latent athletic talent that he will probably be able to carve out a several year run as a Triple A ballplayer who gets a callup or three every season. Not bad work if you can get it I guess. Trinidad Hubbard and Calvin Murray hung on for a ridiculous amount of time doing the same sort of thing.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
Why, does one owe the other money?
;-)
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 24, 2010 6:37 PM CST up reply actions
Felix Pie is not one that got away
Six months from now he will have gone the way of Matt Murton in terms of Cub fan fondness for the player. The absolute zenith of Felix Pie’s major league career is as a 5th outfielder type. And even that role is one I have little faith he will be able to maintain on a consistent basis. He will spend the rest of his professional baseball existence hopping from Triple A team to big league club when need arises from injury.
Corey Patterson will actually prove out to have a distinctly “better” major league career than Pie.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
Funny coz I'm not kidding at all.
I’ll take a photo this afternoon when I go home for lunch and post it.
No photo
but an oversized Jersey I can use as a nightshirt. I figured I would buy a remaindered one when he was traded and they only had extra large left.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 24, 2010 9:38 AM CST up reply actions
LF
Much of Pie’s value from last year comes from a UZR/150 of 19.4 while playing in LF and I don’t think anyone here is going to start an argument that Pie can actually contribute much as a LF. He got hot in the second half after another horrid start. We shall see, but I’m certainly not betting any money on him. I don’t see him hitting ML pitching.
I'm confused.
In about half a season (252 PA), Pie posted 1.4 WAR. This is a higher production rate than Fukudome or Byrd achieved in 2009.
Fukudome posted a 2.3 WAR in 2009 and Byrd a 2.4. Are you saying if Pie would’ve played a full season his WAR would’ve exceeded both of those numbers?
plus if Pie played LF in Balt
why are we trying to compare him to CF and RF?
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It has a pretty simple answer - he played CF more than he played LF.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
he played LF for Balt more than CF
so that makes your comparing him to our CF moot. He also was a part time player, ala Fontenot 2008, so saying he would produce the same in an everyday role is also moot.
As a Cub he played just well enough for Reed Johnson and Jim Edmonds to take his job.
He is not an everyday CF in MLB, easy as that. So why keep arguing he is when he has not been able to when given the chance.
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as i mention below
depends on how you measure “played more”
85 games played
41 in CF
44 in LF
flip side to measure
272.0 Innings in LF
311.2 Innings in CF
so technically either can be right, he played more in LF by games, and more in CF by innings.
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The fact that he made three 1-inning defensive-replacement LF appearances doesn't make him a LF.
Pie is a CF, and has been throughout his entire career. He’s good at it.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
good, compared to us on BCB sure
good compared to MLB CFers, no.
His value as a Cub was a negative, and as an Oriole it was lower than Byrd or Fukudome were last season, so I have to disagree with you on this.
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
His value was lower than Dome's by what metric?!
Kosuke was a horrific CF – he posted a -11.3 UZR as a CF.
Byrd has been good in the past, but he was a -6.0 last year as a CF.
Pie was a +1.6.
You’ve been citing WAR throughout this thread as evidence that Pie’s “Value was lower”. I’ll say it again – WAR is a counting stat, and Pie played half as much as those two did. In the time that he played, Pie was more valuable than either.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
and you say time and time again he was good in Chicago
and the stats do not match that. Yoiu have pointed to one month of good, which is a bad season
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
Maybe if break it down into small bite-size portions you'll follow?
1. In 2008, Felix Pie had 93 AB, as a 23 year old. (A 23 year old coming off of Spring Training testicular surgery!!!)
2. That is not enough PT to make any kind of judgment whatsoever about a player. Especially not if you’re citing his WAR and UZR, for crying out loud.
3. However, this particular player also continued to hit at AAA – especially in the 2nd half, and hit very well in a September callup, even making the playoff roster.
4. The Cubs traded him after the season for absolutely nothing, and Pie had a very solid year as a 24 year old.
5. He’s also a cost-controlled, left-handed CF, which is exactly what this team desperately needed.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
how many players tear up AAA
and do not match that production in MLB? Well lets start with Hoff, and Fox just for fun, and we can always build off that list
Sure both are small sample, but both also tore up AAA but have not done so, and yes both might have had a month where they looked good, making your smaller sample of Pie for a month in 2008 show a trend.
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the fact that you fail to see
that felix pie is 100% the player the cubs were looking for and spending millions of dollars on this offseason is simply amazing, i think im done with this thread.
bring back harden.
I am not stating he was worthless
but he is not the savior of the 2009 team we were missing, nor would be he the reason that the 2010 would be a contender.
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his value
is millions of dollars, and we gave him away for absolutely nothing. there is a big problem in that, whether it is water under the bridge or not. its one of the many miserable moves of recent memory for jim hendry. i used to love the guy, aramis, lee, hell the barrett trade seemed good. but hendry has to go.
bring back harden.
the millions of dollars value
at times people need to look at that like Beckett Monthly, Bluebook Value, A Comic Book Value, etc
the value in the book might give a certain worth, but its only truly worth what you can get for it, and it isnt always what the book says. If the most anyone is offering is Heilmann, then guess what his current worth is. Also, in 2009 as noted above, there was not much doing for the Orioles in any wish to move him
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
completely agree
If Hendry is allowing the manager to make major personnel decisions (like many said he did with Baker) he absolutely needs to go!
Also, was Wuertz a call made by the manager too? Another terrible move..
The journey is the reward!
Because Pie is a CF, and Fukudome was our 2009 CF, and Byrd is our 2010 CF.
Pie played more games in CF last year than he did in LF.
When he played LF last year, it was solely b/c Adam Jones is firmly planted in center.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
meaning his numbers last year were as a LF not CF
so that means comparing him to our CF when he was LF for Balt is moot
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FWIW, I guess it depends on how you judge "more"
in 2009 he played in 85 games for the Orioles, and 45 were in LF, which is more than he played in CF, but he played more innings in CF than LF in 2009 as well.
His UZR and UZR/150 are much better in LF as well
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He got 1 more start as a CF, played 40 more innings and got more AB there
Pie obviously would come in to LF on occasion as a defensive replacement, while Adam Jones and Nick Markakis must not have needed as much help in that department.
The point being, CF is clearly his primary position, and has been throughout his entire professional career. It only makes sense to compare him to other CFs, because that’s what he would have played had he been a Cub in 2009.
However, if you really want to compare him to the Cubs 2009 LF, I’m sure he’d appreciate it!
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
had he been a Cub in 2009
he would have been on the bench, playing all three OF spots, not CF. He also likely would have seen very little time, as he failed under the pressure of Chicago and has been able to play better with less pressure and less expectation in Baltimore.
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and again it depends on how you
want to put the “more” since he still played more games 44 > 41 in LF.
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Well, there are two ways of putting it, but one is wrong.
He played more as a CF in 2009 than he did as a LF. Substantially more.
“More games” is kind of silly. He had more defensive replacement LF games, because Reimold isn’t the glove that Jones and Markakis are. That doesn’t make him a LF.
Had he been a Cub in 2009, I assume that he would have wound up the everyday CF after Soriano finally hung it up, with Bradley in LF and Dome in RF. CF is his primary position.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Again I disagree
since his numbers as a Cub were all negative value, and his WAR etc last season also were below Fukudome (CF 2009) and Byrd (CF 2010). He did not produce as a Cub, and Hendry moved him, its not hard to understand why we got minimal in return. Look at his WAR as a Cub (0.3 and -0.2). When looking at MLB talent, AAA doesnt matter. If it mattered Hoff would be our starting 1B and Lee would have been moved. Fox wold be here as well starting.
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WAR is a counting stat. Pie only had half a season.
I don’t think that citing WAR helps your Pie argument, when the counterargument is that the guy never played.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
WAR, UZR, UZR/150
all are negative, not just WAR alone, which is why i said ETC meaning not just WAR.
He is not missed by the Cubs, and he also will not be back anytime soon. Making it seem as if Pie gets us into the playoffs in 2009 is the same as saying playing Fox more in LF puts us in the playoffs, neither are make or break players for a team competing for a playoff spot, and Pie proved that when given the chance in a Cubs uniform
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
98 at-bats. Those stats are completely irrelevant.
You cannot possibly be using WAR, UZR, or UZR/150 in rating Pie’s 2008 season. Are you?
(HINT – he only had 98 AB.)
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
what does AB have to do with fielding?
and those are the stats which he produced. I could argue the stats he didnt produce, but those dont count, since he played just well enough to receive minimal playing time for a reason.
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
Because looking at a player's UZR when they only played 39 games is insane?
You simply don’t appreciate what the stats you’re tossing out actually represent.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
i used the same state for 2009 as 2008
and you conntinue to twist what i have said, including trying to jam everything i say into one stat, when I didnt do so. Can we agree to disagree, since the stats do say one thing (small sample or not) where the “what ifs” do not give any credability to what Pie might be based on crazy guesses
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
Can anyone understand what this guy is saying?
I don’t even think that these are sentences. :)
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
dude
its a counting stat. it accumulates. its like saying he only had 10 RBI!!! expecting that he would have a full seasons total of say, 75.
bring back harden.
yet both of you point to a month of 17 ABs
to argue using those stats, while dismissing any other stat given, no matter if it is OBP, BA, SLG, UZR, UZR/150, WAR, etc. I guess once I am informed which stats are able to be used, then we can debate. And using 17 ABs as a debate point while dismissing 98 or more ABs as too small is a contradiction each of your own point
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there's a difference between saying
that in one month, he was hitting at a certain rate, and then saying over a particular 98 AB sequence, he hit .xxx
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Feb 25, 2010 12:58 PM CST up reply actions
im not disputing that
but if I am told 98 AB is too small, then how can the same person point to 17 AB as evidence
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I always like Pie
liked his attitude, appeared to work hard, However he is a situational OF. He will never hit lefties, and his swing is still prone to strikeouts. He will be the 4th OF off the bench in Baltimore.
"Never hit lefties and his swing is prone to strikeouts"
Sort of like Curtis Granderson.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
I would confuse Pie
for Granderson. Granderson has a much better track record even though he can not hit lefties, at least the last two years.
they had the same
minor league track record, seriously nearly identical
give Pie time and opportunity and he should be something similar to Granderson
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 24, 2010 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
As Granderson regresses to norms versus lefties and makes
his one year with decent numbers against lefties look like an anomoly, Pie and Granderson may become more comparable. In fact, Pie may become the better player with possibly a better glove and much smaller contract.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
I will always remember the throw he made in his first game.
When he threw a runner out at the plate in the best throw I had seen at Wrigley in a long while. I think the Cubs will regret
trading him, but they had no choice when Lou would not play him. Maybe they could have bulked him up, had him grow a beard and told Lou he was really a 30 year old minor league player and he would have given him a shot.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 24, 2010 9:41 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
Posts like this
are why I think this site should be shut down from Dec. 1 to March 1.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Yes but you have a wife and child to keep you busy
The rest of us living in Mom’s basement have to have some outlet for our intelect.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 24, 2010 10:18 AM CST up reply actions
You are right Worf. The analysis and banter is so much
better between March 1 and Dec. 1. (See Eric Hanna)
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Feb 24, 2010 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
Believe me
I wish this post had the comic potential of Eric’s
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Maybe not the comic potential, but certainly it has the absurdity of the Hanna post.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Feb 24, 2010 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
IT DOES NOT
YOU GUYS ARE CRAZY!!!!!
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 24, 2010 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
hah!
then i shall complain from the last out of the WS to the last day of november
by jesus christos on Feb 24, 2010 4:21 PM CST up reply actions
Amen brother
Felix Pie sucked as a Cub. Sucked. And he did indeed have opportunity. And, there is NOTHING to suggest he is on the path to a viable major league career. Not unless you absolutely cannot stomach parting ways with a 5th friggin outfielder.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
Finally, a voice of reason. Wait!
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Feb 24, 2010 6:02 PM CST up reply actions
Whatever...
Funny how mid-season 2009 Andy McPhail tried to move Felix Pie with zero takers. So I guess all sorts of baseball people besides the big bad prospect hating Felix Pie thought the player was / is nothingness defined.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
"prospect hating Lou PIneilla" that is
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
Slow down cowboy, I was agreeing with you. I think the Cubs got about as
much as they were going to get from Pie. I’m not not pining for him to come back.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Feb 24, 2010 6:15 PM CST up reply actions
I agree with both of you on this one
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
They could have gotten more from Pie if they had traded him before the 2008 season.
If Lou was going to be this obstinate about it, they should have traded him while his value was higher.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Slow down cowboy - now that's funny!
"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 24, 2010 8:45 PM CST up reply actions
Why do you think he had zero takers?
There was a report that he was gauging interest, but I don’t even remember hearing any rumored trades.
Moreover, if MacPhail was “listening to offers”, he was obviously receiving offers. You and I have no idea what those offers may have been. MacPhail obviously didn’t trade him, so clearly the offers weren’t high enough for MacPhail’s opinion of Pie.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I think 1.4 WAR is about average.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Feb 24, 2010 10:28 AM CST via mobile reply actions
The poster's point is...
that this 1.4 WAR was done with a relatively small amount of PA’s… 252. It’s a small sample size, though I agree that Pie will be a nice major league player when he’s 28-29. Hard to believe that he’s only 25.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
Listen,
there was simply no circumstance in which the Cubs could have – nor should have – kept Pie around last season. Felix needed to go someplace where he could get at-bats, period. What he needed was at least a good season’s worth of play at the major-league level to make a proper assessment of his talents. Coming off a 98-win season, he wasn’t going to get it with the Cubs. It’s really that simple.
I’m higher on his ceiling than BLou, but I don’t think that he’ll be much more than a league-average starter, at best. If you want to complain, you’ve a better argument about the Cubs diminishing his value so greatly before finally trading him, than the trade itself.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 24, 2010 11:20 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
why...
couldn’t he have played the Joey Gathright role on the roster, which was eventually replaced by Scales/Hoffpauir/Fox/R. Johnson? and then when MB was hurt let Fukudome slide over to RF
i mean… heck the Orioles only created 280 or so PA’s for him, he wasn’t getting consistent time over there. We could’ve done the EXACT same thing
instead we gave 257 PA’s to Hoffpauir, 138 to Scales, 186 to Reed Johnson
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 24, 2010 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly.
Blame this one on Lou. I believe most of the front office wanted Pie to get a shot, but Lou didn’t like him for some reason, eventually forcing the trade.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You can't let a field manager dictate trades. You just can't.
If that sort of thing is happening, why bother having a GM at all?
The field manager is entitled to his opinion, but the decision to trade Pie is on Hendry.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
i am sure there is more behind the scene
than Lou would not play him, being the only reason he was traded.
newest member of the Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
You can blame it
on whomever you like in the organization, but again, I think he’s got a better ceiling than most others do. If your highest and best use for him is as a 5th outfielder, the ball club needs to get something more useful in return, and move on.
Unfortunately, the return here was Aaron Heilman. If Pie was traded earlier, when it was first clear he didn’t fit into Lou’s on-field strategy, I think that could have been a better deal for the Cubs, and maybe we aren’t having this conversation.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 24, 2010 1:02 PM CST up reply actions
Agree and Disagree
There’s no reason Pie couldn’t have played the Gathright role.
But if the entire organization sans Lou loved Pie, then there’s just no way Jim doesn’t stick to his guns and say he’s going to be your fifth outfielder. It’s been said around here that Jim cares enough about his prospects that he’s willing to trade them so they can get more playing time (like Jake Fox). I don’t agree with this philosophy, but that’s what seemed to happen with Pie.
And in the end,
Pie turned into part of Aaron Heilman. Keeping Pie would have at least been less damaging than that.
I can’t say that I expressed great outrage at Pie being traded away. Probably because the Cubs telegraphed his trade away.
"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 24, 2010 8:44 PM CST up reply actions
Rec'd
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
Green'ed.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
by Ryno Runner on Feb 28, 2010 12:49 PM CST up reply actions
in July, Baltimore would have taken little in return for Pie
MacPhail told MLB.com “I think the market would indicate that (Pie has) greater value than just a waiver claim”. http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090707&content_id=5748504&vkey=news_bal&fext=.jsp&c_id=bal
Nobody offered much for him. Pie finally got some playing time and produced. Adam Jones is solid in center, and Pie simply doesnt provide enough offense to play left or right.
I think Pie is better than Fuld, and will have a better career.
I kind of look at Felix Pie, the same way
that I look at Angel Pagan. We should have kept both of them, but it’s in the past and there’s nothing we can do about it. I felt like we should have kept alot of people. I have a hard time letting go. Mark Grace, Moises Alou, Juan Pierre, Jaque Jones, and the most recent Reed Johnson, I feel like we let go to easily. There’s nothing wrong with at least pretending we want to keep these guys here.
Yes, Angel Pagan
Pagan batted .306 last year, with 56 K’s, & 14 SB. Alfonso Soriano batted .241 with 118 K’s & 9 SB. Sure Soriano is going to have more HR’s than Pagan (2009: 20 to 9), but Pagan doesn’t swing at every curveball in the dirt like Soriano does. He doesn’t do that hop crap that Soriano does. Last but not least he’s faster, younger, definately cheaper and less injury prone that Soriano. He’s turning into an everyday starter for the NY Mets. When compared to Fukudome…well don’t get me started on him.
by alabamacubbie on Feb 25, 2010 9:55 AM CST up reply actions
You can't seriously be saying that Angel Pagan is a better player than Alfonso Soriano.
Because he isn’t.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He was last year. However --
No one was lamenting his loss when he left the Cubs. He had a nice year, but hardly indicative of someone they dropped the ball on.
Not incidentally, alabamacubbie references Pagan’s stolen bases, but what I heard/read about his overall baserunning is that he makes Ryan Theriot look like a genius on the bases.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 25, 2010 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
I have watched some Met's games,
but I have watched, probably like yourself, all Cubs games last year. Soriano came through some of the time last year, but Angel Pagan came through for the Mets more often. When Soriano was at the plate, I knew what was coming, he knew what was coming…a curveball low and away. Everytime he swung and 80% of the time he missed that curveball. His strikezone is laughable when it comes to the Cubs really depending on his bat in a could win situation. Now don’t get me wrong, a fastball down the middle, he blasts, further than Pagan. But Pagan last year was more consistent, that is all I am trying to defend.
by alabamacubbie on Feb 25, 2010 11:53 AM CST up reply actions
As Yankees manager-in-waiting in '82, I wonder what Lou thought...
…of that Willie McGee for Bob Sykes deal? As we know, he’s a great judge of talent in low-pressure markets like Cincinnati and Seattle, but the need to win now generally has kept him from experimenting with the Cubs, with the notable exceptions of Marmol and the boys from LSU.
It’s tough to argue against his use of Edmonds in 2008, but I still can’t understand why both Edmonds and Pie were dropped before last season. The more I think about the combined 2009 performance of both Lou and Hendry, the more I understand what could be in store for Starlin Castro.
"C'mon Freeman, throw the ball somewhere!" Brickhouse, incensed, 5/15/58
"Welcome to Wrigley Field, Mr. Bah-oo-tah!" Brickhouse, rubbing it in, 7/6/60
I understand Edmonds wanted a real contract and wouldn't play
for what the Cubs paid in 2008, but knowing they couldn’t afford Edmonds, why dump Pie and then sign his less effective and more expensive replacement in Gathright. I still get lost contemplating all this.
may addition by subtraction be real
Agreed - there were like 4 types of downside, and no upside, in that chain of decisions.
We had the aging, but still effective, left-handed Edmonds in CF, platooning with Johnson, with the very young and raw left-handed Pie backing him up. A pretty great situation.
Instead of doing the obvious thing and managing a transition from the older player to the younger player, we jettisoned everybody, took a flyer on the hope that Dome could play CF (he could not), threw a million dollars at Joey Gathright to be the backup (which lasted a month or so before we realized this was a horrible mistake), and signed Milton Bradley to a $30M deal to play RF, hoping that he could bat effectively lefthanded (he could not) and that he would replace or improve upon Edmonds’ production from 2008 (didn’t work) while remaining at least relatively sane (holy crap that didn’t work).
How do you wind up spending $11M more on your OF, and trading your #1 prospect, in order to get worse offensively AND defensively?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Hopefully, those mistakes have been rectified.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
they haven't been rectified
we’re not going to find someone who could produce pie’s value (production vs. contract), instead of a giant albatross contract in MB, we have it in Silva
Rectified wasn’t likely to happen, not being compounded should be the goal
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 25, 2010 11:15 AM CST up reply actions
Lou was manager-in-waiting in '82?
That was a full four years before he was named Yankee manager. I doubt he had a manager’s view of that deal at the time.
A worse deal the Yankees made in the same year was trading Fred McGriff, Mike Morgan and Dave Collins to Toronto for Dale Murray and Tom Dodd — that has to be one of the worst trades in recent history.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't mean to imply that Lou had anything to do with the McGee trade,
only that he was in a good position to see the results and hear the fan reaction in New York once McGee became such a force for the Cardinals. What I am implying is that Pie appears to be the same type of player as McGee, and that Lou made a big mistake either in letting him go or forcing him out.
"C'mon Freeman, throw the ball somewhere!" Brickhouse, incensed, 5/15/58
"Welcome to Wrigley Field, Mr. Bah-oo-tah!" Brickhouse, rubbing it in, 7/6/60
By the time McGee was the age Pie is now...
… he had three full major league seasons, finished 3rd in ROY voting, and made an All-Star team.
I like Pie as a player, but he’s no Willie McGee.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
eh...
his line when he made the AS team: .286/.314/.374, OPS+ 90
McGee had a strong career, playing 18 seasons in the bigs and had some notable great seasons in his late 20’s but his career line was: .295/.333/.396 with an OPS+ 100
Based on minor league track record, Pie should be a better hitter than that
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 25, 2010 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
Angel Pagan is a distinctly better major league ballplayer than Felix Pie ever will be
And that speaks VOLUMES.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
prove it.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Mar 2, 2010 1:53 PM CST up reply actions
And when there was no Pie
We ate Byrd…
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Feb 25, 2010 10:20 PM CST reply actions
The Pie was from the Baker.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
and it was DLEEICIOUS
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
No Thanks...
When he was with the Cubs Pie led the team in Frequent Flyer Miles from Iowa to Chicago and back. He would spend a month in Iowa, hit lights out for a could weeks and get called back… He’s be good for a week or so and then stinks on ice…
Why would we want him back…???
- Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
- Germans?
- Forget it, he's rolling.
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