Guzman shut down
This can't be good.
Sign. Kiko. Calero. Seriously.
almost 2 years ago
kanderber
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Levine left something out.
In other injury news, right-hander Angel Guzman, who already is coming off a knee scope, “had some discomfort in his shoulder,” according to Jim Hendry and has been shut down. Jim says Guzman, who has a long history of injury problems, is not seeing a doctor, but that the Cubs would “take the precautionary path” and push him back a couple days. Trainer Mark O’Neal might have an update in the morning.
“A couple of days”. Don’t need to panic here.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
yeah but
i don’t think this is the end of injuries for this kid. He seems to always be recovering from something. This is why i would have really liked to see theh Cubs pick up some bullpen help this offseason.
by RMRZisMYmanCRUSH on Feb 25, 2010 6:06 PM CST up reply actions
Well, the good news is that the article mentioned that...
…the Cubs are interested in Gregorson. He’d be a great pickup.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
Who do you think we'd have to give up for him, Mr. Yellon?
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
i'd imagine the price
for either frasor or gregorson would be slightly lighter than the price for say a Heath Bell. Gregorson in particular should be considered the closer of the future in SD and Frasor is competing for that role now in TOR
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 26, 2010 9:09 AM CST up reply actions
In a different thread, somebody mentioned Font and Marshall for Gregerson.
At first I thought that it would be too much, but it actually should be a fair price.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
The bullpen shapes up as a clusterfu*k
An already paper thin and very questionable bullpen absolutely, positively cannot withstand the loss of Angel Guzman.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
Well, since you mentioned it....
Yeah, the Cubs are kinda sorta doomed in a fragile pitching situation doesn’t find some viable answers soon AND find itself blessed with extraordinary health from the few guys it can count on.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
Mr. Doom and Gloom.
Two of the biggest problems from last year’s bullpen are gone: Heilman and Gregg.
That’s already an improvement.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Uh...
Not when they’re replaced by Berg and Caridad.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 25, 2010 7:21 PM CST up reply actions
Precisely
The candidates to round out the bullpen is something you’d see in a place like Kansas City or Pittsburgh.
Marmol – who knows what to expect
Guzman – his injury history is long, long, long
Grabow – good
Marshall – decent
the rest of the pack – ???
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
What's wrong with Berg and Caridad?
You know, eventually you have to give a shot to people in your farm system who have had good results there, and some decent results in some major league experience.
Berg and Caridad have good arms and threw well last year — even when other Cubs relievers weren’t.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Nothing...
Those guys are non-prospects, who did okay in meaningless, late-season games. There’s getting a chance, and then there’s breaking camp with them, expecting contributions. I’d prefer that the Cubs not do the latter. The season is long, and if their success continues, they’ll both have their chances.
Now what really boggles the mind is that even the Cubs know this, having spent most of the off-season looking for a RH upgrade in the pen, yet you’re asking “What’s wrong with those guys?”. What are you seeing that few else – including their employer – can?
by Damen Jackson on Feb 25, 2010 7:52 PM CST up reply actions
Well....
… Lou’s already said that Caridad is on the team. I believe both Berg and Caridad (and perhaps others) can contribute.
If the Cubs wanted a reliever, they could have signed one or traded for one by now. They didn’t.
At some point you have to give your kids a chance. Every one of these veterans everyone’s panting after got that from another team, at some time in their career. Time to give Cubs minor leaguers that shot, too.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You're making a wonderfully disengenious argument, Al...
The Cubs give young players a chance all the time, sometimes out of talent, others by necessity. And no one here is saying that they shouldn’t. Personally, I wouldn’t mind seeing more of both these players in the future. The questions are though 1) when, and 2) how. That the Cubs would break camp with both is simply inexcusable, especially given that you’ll probably see Silva there as well in a middle relief role. It’s the Cubs. Do better.
And let’s be candid, really. The Cubs not having found an upgrade is much more indicative of their budget constraints than a lack of interest.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 25, 2010 8:11 PM CST up reply actions
silva
will either be mop up (by mop up i mean up or down by 10 runs) or rotting on the DL
by jesus christos on Feb 25, 2010 8:23 PM CST up reply actions
and a less than fantastic GM
I find it rather funny that suddenly Al is back thinking Hendry knows exactly what he’s doing after last season.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Feb 25, 2010 9:00 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not buying Al's comments
Al Yellon is too damned smart of a baseball fan to paper over the glaring weaknesses of the Cubs. He’s not a kool-aid drinker. Not sure therefore where all this blind optimism on his part is coming from.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
HUH?
“He’s not a kool-aid drinker. Not sure therefore where all this blind optimism on his part is coming from.”
I wouldn’t go so far as saying Al’s a Kool-Aide drinker, but blind optimism? Yes very often without a doubt.
"In time you can turn these obsessions into careers...Hurry Down Doomsday the bugs are taking over." - Elvis Costello
I strongly disagree with your characterization of me.
Optimism? Definitely? Blind optimism? No.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Good point - I think that 2008-09 gave us a glimpse behind the curtain
…and there’s no “there” there. What we have is a whole lot of throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks, and occasional bursts of throwing huge piles of cash at free agents.
I don’t think there’s much of a master plan going on behind the scenes. The Cubs have enjoyed a bit of success lately, due in overwhelming part to the fact that we’re the beneficiaries of an inequitable system.
But they’ve done a fantastic job of minimizing their structural advantage, and now find themselves stuck in some pretty ludicrous situations, like “paying eight figures to Carlos Silva and Kosuke Fukudome”, and “expecting great things from last year’s AAA bullpen and John Grabow.”
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
No!
We have to have K Rod as our third or fourth option in the pen. Only the best and most expensive free agents on this club!
Hey, remember those guys from NY, the Yankees? I think they won something last year. This is their bullpen
Mariano Rivera
Damaso Marte
Phil Coke
Chad Gaudin
Joba Chamberlain? (he might start)
Sergio Mitre
Not exactly life altering
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
What are you even talking about?
We’re talking about whether it’s appropriate for this club to have multiple, unproven talents opening the season in their pen. All the guys in the New York pen had an actual major league resume at the time, so I don’t see the relevance or comparison here.
No one is advocating signing a big check for middle relief help, or a setup man, for that matter. Gregerson, Frasor, Calero, or someone similar would be more than adequate in this instance.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 26, 2010 8:53 AM CST up reply actions
I'm saying we don't need to have an allstar at every position in the bullpen
We’re fine as is. Having Frasor or Gregerson would be nice. Not a necessity unless Guzman is seriously injured. It’s not worth giving up a good prospect for
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Feb 26, 2010 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
actually ...
I would say that Berg and Caridad are improvements. The question is whether they’re big enough improvements.
That's a legitimate question.
I believe they are. Others don’t. Again, at some point every one of the middle relievers mentioned as an acquisition was a rookie given a chance. Time for the Cubs to do that.
Excellent example: three significant contributors to the bullpen of last year’s World Champions, the Yankees, were in their first full major league seasons in 2009. That would be David Robertson, Alfredo Aceves, and Phil Coke. All three threw well in the regular season and made postseason contributions.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think we're on the same page, Al
which is a welcome departure from the Jeff Baker debate. Here’s my thinking:
Barring an unforeseen injury and not counting Guzman, we can safely guess on five (maybe six) of the bullpen spots — Marmol, Grabow, Caridad and two or three of Gorzo/Marshall/Silva. All three make it if Shark is the fifth starter, only two would otherwise. This is, of course, barring a trade.
Given Guzman’s injuries, Caridad’s inexperience and Silva being Silva (do we want Silva penciled in as our eighth-inning right hander, if Guzman stays hurt and should Berg or Caridad fail?), I think the Cubs need to acquire ONE more arm.
I’m with you that bullpen success can come from guys like Phil Coke (the best Cubs example is Marmol in ‘07). But I don’t think the Cubs, now that Guzman is hurt, should bet on Caridad AND Berg to succeed at the same time.
Picking up Calero on a 1-year deal makes a ton of sense. Or maybe find a way to trade Marshall should he not win the final rotation spot. Marshall and a low prospect for Gregerson or Frasor would be OK with me. I bet Marshall could win 12 games pitching in Petco.
Last thought: I’d rather pay $1 million-plus for Calero NOW than pay a premium to get an eighth-inning guy (Matt Karchner, anyone?) in July.
And therein lies the rub...
Taking the best of that bunch would be one thing. Taking them both north borderlines on hubris.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 26, 2010 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
I think you two are overreacting to what's going on with Guzman.
He could be just fine in two weeks.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
OK, if that's true ...
Why not sign Calero (who is still without a job) to a 1-year $1 million contract with incentives? The base salary would almost completely be covered by the money saved in the Theriot arbitration decision.
If Calero sucks, so what? Caridad and/or Berg (probably Berg, because Caridad would already be on the team) steps in. If Calero’s good, he’s a freaking bargain. No one (I don’t think) is advocating we give any veteran reliever a Bobby Howry-style deal.
Now, I’m guessing that there’s something going on that we don’t know about. Why else would Calero NOT be an option when the Frasor — who’s making more than $2 million AND would cost players in return — is still reportedly on the Cubs radar?
My guess is...
… that Calero is still looking for a multiyear deal. Regardless of my personal feelings about him, you’d think the Cubs would have done this.
Either that, or there’s something in his injury history the Cubs don’t like.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by "done this"
you mean they would have signed him to the deal I suggested if it were doable?
I was wondering about his injury history, too.
Yes, probably so.
I wasn’t in favor of Calero, but given his numbers, it is a bit surprising that no team has signed him yet. That makes me think there are issues that maybe the Cubs don’t want to deal with.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
From what I know ...
I would have taken Calero over Park. But I’m not privy to all the info that the Cubs have.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed...
for a real nice upgrade before Opening Day. The thing is, between a bunch of short-inning starters, and some real dicey looking middle relievers, the Cubs looked primed right now to lose a ton of games in the sixth and seventh innings.
I would feel much, much better about this team if there was a setup man acquired who would then knock Guzman down to that middle relief role.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 25, 2010 7:57 PM CST up reply actions
That setup man is supposedly John Grabow.
I know, I know, I don’t like it either. But for his salary, he’s the 8th inning guy.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Seriously BLou, why is this pen such an issue
Three solid options at the end of the bench
Marmol
Grabow
Guzman
That leaves three spots
Assume two are taken up by the losers of the fifth starter contest (Marshall/Gorz/Shark)
That leaves ONE, count ’em one open spot for competition. Do you really think Caridad/Cashner/Gray/Parisi/Berg/Atkins are really going to struggle that badly?
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
well...
I hate to jump in on anything like BLou’s side, but those three solid options are not so solid:
Marmol – will he find the strike zone this year
Grabow – The most solid of these three, solid if not stellar
Guzman – will he be healthy?
There is plenty to worry about here. And enough reason to keep looking for deals.
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
I don't think you jump ship before seeing what they can do
Guzman has a minor soreness. It happens. Better now than in August. Marmol has my vote of confidence given his strong finish last year. Grabow is Grabow. A little over paid but good
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Feb 26, 2010 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
I think 7 spots will be open for the bullpen
With Silva taking the one you left out. He has nowhere else to go, other than the DL or unemployment line. I agree with you and with Al. Give the rookies a shot. It’s not like these guys are really young either. both Caridad and Berg will be 26 for the majority of the season. Parisi and Gray aren’t “young” either as Parisi will be 27 and Gray 28 for most of the season. You gotta give young players a chance.
by Mulhollandmania on Feb 26, 2010 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
a cheap veteran presence ...
might eliminate the need to trade a young pitching prospect (Garland) for an old reliever (Karchner), come the deadline.
We have a TON of RPs on the 40 man
Gray Caridad Berg Parisi Atkins Stevens Parker Gaub etc
I don’t see how either mixing and matching or having them catch on, that none of these guys wll work out.
by Mulhollandmania on Feb 26, 2010 2:28 PM CST up reply actions
1 week to 10 days
I’m trying not to panic.
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 25, 2010 6:08 PM CST reply actions
Ted is just making sure the thermometer is working properly.
Ted Lilly, recovering from left shoulder surgery, missed the last couple of days of camp with a high fever. “He’s been really sick for the last two days,” Hendry said. “One hundred and two or 103 fever.”
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
You forgot...
…he cracked open the thermometer and drank the mercury afterwards.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Ted Lilly never has fever but, at times, is hot to trot
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Losing out on Chan Ho Park sucks
And Jim Hendry not otherwise moving financial commitments to be able to spend on desperately needed pitching additions is going to sink the 2010 battleship.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
in six months ...
we’ll be happy we didn’t get Park. But the Cubs do need to do something to shore up the pen.
That's why I'm happy that the Cubs are interested in Gregorson.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
I bet Calero will make less money in 2010
… and won’t cost prospects.
Either or would do. But Calero has had fairly recent arm trouble.
Problem with Gregorson is that most San Diego relievers suffer greatly once they leave the team
It probably has something to do with the spaciousness of Petco and the relative low pressure environment of playing for the Padres.l
I don’t know enough about Gregerson’s stuff to know if this is a prudent deal to make. I’m guessing he will cost a good prospect.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
I stil think that depending on the cost (player wise), he'd at least be worth a shot.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
Are you serious?
This Chan Ho Park?
www.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=120221
ERA over 4 and WHIP of 1.40 is going to “save the bullpen”? Please.
Try splitting out his relief innings.
In relief last year, Park threw 50 innings, posted a 1.18 WHIP, a 2.52 ERA and allowed ZERO home runs.
It’s moot, because he signed with another team. But yes, he could have helped.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
OK, maybe the HR rate is unsustainable.
But what about the WHIP?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Thank you...............
My point exactly.
To Wreckard.........
Park’s career WHIP is 4.35-coincidence? I think not.
Yup.......
His career ERA and WHIP are terrible……not representative of his 50 innings of magic last year. And unlike others have said-he has not had 2 good years in the BP, just one. I would be very careful (hence my original position) on signing a guy or crowning him the “savior” of our bullpen based on one year of stats……….
Agreed,
with Al’s post below. Park has been a rock-solid reliever for the last two seasons, and seems extremely well suited to the role.
Teams aren’t totally stupid. There is actually a reason that he keeps landing on championship-caliber squads.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 25, 2010 8:16 PM CST up reply actions
It's interesting that he's had the most success in the NL.
Going to the AL didn’t go well the last time, I wonder if this will turn out any better.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Feb 25, 2010 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah....
and in the playoffs he sucked. What’s your point?
I love arguments like this
you tried to belittle the mentioning of Park as a good option for the bullpen. When it’s proved you don’t know what you’re talking about, you move the goal posts.
And by the way, whether or not he sucked in the playoffs, he would help GET us to the playoffs. Which is the first goal
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Feb 25, 2010 9:03 PM CST up reply actions
Whatever...........
Park has a career 4.35 ERA and WHIP of 1.40. Point being that 50 innings of good relief work can happen, but isn’t representative of his career.
And your point about getting us to the playoffs is MUTE, because you know what are record is there as of late. We need to win in the playoffs, which Park has not demonstrated he can do.
How about those goalposts?
No panic now
He has a history of arm problems, it could be they are just being ultra cautious. It’s three days into ST, everybody is having a stiff shoulder. If there is a more serious problem let the guys in camp fight it out for a spot. There is some talent there.
Not everyone is being shut down
What I find hilarious is the number of times I saw posts like this with Wood and Prior.
Is it the same situation? Not exactly, but the people shrugging off Guzman’s injury, when he’s proven to be pretty damn brittle, is sort of odd.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Feb 25, 2010 9:04 PM CST up reply actions
Double Stack is needed big time for the pen
Hoping its nothing more than “why risk it” kind of thing
Sunday Feb 28 at 7 PM CST free webcast of the live taping of The Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
really
guzman has been healthy for what 1 season? im sure berg or caridad can step in for him. wont hurt as much as the lily thing. lets hope the team does not run another mash unit this year.
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