Reinsdorf upset with paying "Cubs Tax"
Our good buddy Jerry and the Diamondbacks president Derrick Hall are objecting to the tax that will help fund the Cubs new spring training complex. They feel that it's unfair for them to charge higher ticket prices to help the Cubs.
about 2 years ago
kaseyi
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Hmm, let's see.
They could play the Cubs and have a full house, or play, say, the Brewers and have a half-filled ballpark.
Which one will make them more money? Come on, Reinsdorf and Hall. Get a clue.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
where did money for the Sox facility come from?
I dont know about in AZ, when them made the jump, anyone know?
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
From the Sun Times
The Arizona Sports and Tourism Authority footed two-thirds of the $100 million tab to build the baseball campus. The remainder was paid by Rightpath Limited, which will develop the extra acreage into the Main Street Glendale project, consisting of an 18-hole golf course, hotels, shopping and residential units.
Where does Reinsdorf think the Arizona Sports and Tourism Authority got the money for his spring training facility?
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 5, 2010 6:34 PM CST up reply actions
so its ok for the Sox to benefit from it
but not the Cubs…..ok, I understand now
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Wrong
there has never been a ticket surcharge on Cactus League games to generate funds. This is uncharted water, and the objections made by the White Sox and the D’Backs will no doubt be echoed by most, if not all, the other teams in the Cactus League.
There is already talk of dropping this idea and coming up with an alternate plan for funding.
ok
let me rephrase
it is ok for the Sox and other teams to benefit from funds that come in various manners to allow them to have a nice new ST facility in Arizona, while they complain about the Cubs getting one now. TIcket or elsewhere, the money is coming from the people visiting.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
You are still wrong
If the money to build the Cubs facility came from the ATSA using the same revenue stream that they have always used, I’m sure Reinsdorf, Hall, etc would have no objection. That is why the ATSA was formed.
This idea of using other teams fans ticket purchases to fund ONE team’s facility is a new one and it had a lot of logical holes in it.
I predict that this part of the plan will eventually get dropped in favor of an alternate funding source. If one cannot be agreed upon, then Naples comes into play again.
Sorry man...
I’m still having trouble with this one. Tax dollars are fungible, and the charge is going to be levied on disinterested parties, regardless of which account is comes out of. Tourist tax, hotel and rental, increased sales tax, it really doesn’t matter but for the accounting. This looks like sour grapes by Reinsdorf, as it limits his ability to raise prices in the future directly for personal profit.
That said, I do agree with you about the funding structure. I find Sullivan’s article suggesting that the Cubs might back out of the deal over it a bit nutty, to say the least.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 5, 2010 9:03 PM CST up reply actions
I really don't think
ticket prices, or the ability to raise same is much of an issue here. Revenue from ST tickets is a drop in the bucket to teams, and mostly goes to fund ballpark maintenance.
The issue is one of fairness, and precedent. The ATSA was formed to provide a mechanism for monies to be collected and then distributed to promote the health of the entire Cactus League. This proposal uses the ATSA as a vehicle to generate revenue and then earmark the money for one purpose only. It not only usurps the charter of the ATSA, but it is contrary to the spirit of their formation.
read what i said again
i never once said from tix, YOU ARE MISREADING WHAT I SAID
let me rephrase
it is ok for the Sox and other teams to benefit from funds that come in various manners to allow them to have a nice new ST facility in Arizona, while they complain about the Cubs getting one now. TIcket or elsewhere, the money is coming from the people visiting
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
from tix only***
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
But a tax on rent-a-cars or hotel rooms is paid
by every tourist all year long whether they have any interest in baseball or not. It’s quite a sweet deal for businesses that only effect the economy six weeks a years. What the owners hate is their business being taxed directly with the revenue only indirectly benefitting them but directly benefitting another business.
But a tourist tax on rent-a-cars or hotel rooms is paid
by every tourist all year long whether they have any interest in baseball or not. It’s quite a sweet deal for businesses that only effect the economy six weeks a years. What the owners hate is their business being taxed directly with the revenue only indirectly benefitting them but directly benefitting another business.
Jerry is an idiot.
Al is correct, the Sox benefit from playing the Cubs, as do all the other teams in Arizona.
I wonder what all the other teams would have thought of the Cubs going to Florida.
I was waiting for the time other teams would realize
that some of their ticket price (via a tax) would help fund the Cubs new facility. It doesn’t take money from their pockets, but it does raise the price of a ticket. Like that’s going to stop somebody who’s planning to go to AZ Spring Training.
Actually, the ‘outrage’ took longer than I figured. Perhaps their legal experts are taking the winter off. I wonder where Reindorf’s legal residence is — Illinois or AZ? Which one is his second home? He can sound off as an AZ taxpayer, that’s fine. If he is a voting resident of IL, then he can go screw himself. I assume the Diamondback official is a full-time resident of AZ, so he can say what he wants.
If other teams are upset, so what? I doubt if they will fund the opposition to the effort when fall rolls around.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Feb 5, 2010 7:11 PM CST reply actions
why didnt any of the teams speak out BEFORE it passed?
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
NOTHING has passed
this funding mechanism (the surcharge) is just a proposal at this point and has not been, and may never be, put in front of the state legislature for a vote, which would need to be passed before the surcharge could be instituted.
What's the difference?
When Camelback Ranch was funded by the Arizona Sports and Tourism Authority, where do you think that money came from? Some tax revenue. Does it matter that the tax was from hotel room or car rentals vs. the supposed “Cubs tax” on tickets? At the end of the day, it is just a tax on spring training baseball fans and/or tourist in general.
And Reinsdorf’s and Halls’ reaction are both just hypocritical. Think Chase Field was built with only private funds? Nope.
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 5, 2010 8:04 PM CST up reply actions
There is a huge difference
Everybody who rents a car or pays for a hotel room pays a surcharge that is used to fund multiple facilities…not just Cacuts League ball parks, but University of Phoenix Stadium, youth ball fields, etc etc.
This surcharge would only be paid by attendees of Cactus League games and would only be used to fund one facility…that being the Cubs ST Ballpark. Totally different concept.
And you are incorrect in drawing a parallel to Chase Field, which had a different funding mechanism and is owned and operated by the City of Phoenix.
I don't see much of a difference
A general tax used for specific purposes (cubs facility) vs. a specific tax used for a specific purpose. Sounds like the cubs tax is actually more honest.
The Arizona Sports and Tourism Authority could have lumped the Cubs tax into a general tax and people like Reinsdorf The Hypocrite would have been none the wiser.
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 5, 2010 11:05 PM CST up reply actions
For one thing
the ATSA was set up to benefit the entire sports community in Maricopa County, not just the Cactus League and certainly not just one team. They were given the authority to levy surcharges and other funding mechanisms, and to decide how to divvy up the money and which projects to fund, with an eye towards fairness to everyone.
This proposal sort of usurps that authority. It not only creates a funding mechanism that the ATSA did not have input on, but it also earmarks that the revenue generated only be used for one specific purpose.
The ATSA board has not weighed in on this as yet AFAIK, it will be interesting when they do.
You appear to be from Arizona
and it’s your law-makers. I’m sure the people of AZ can deal with it at re-election time.
But Reinsdorf’s response is just nimby – didn’t care how his facility got built; concerned when the Cubs facility hits a little closer to home. I just don’t respect that.
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 6, 2010 9:34 AM CST up reply actions
Look at it this way
For many years, Arizona State has had a surcharge on their football tickets to fund upgrades at Sun Devil Stadium. What do you think the response would be if they asked the other schools in the Pac-10 to add surcharges to their tickets to fund a new stadium for ASU?
I find it interesting that Al is so quick to defend this idea, given the fact that only a few days ago he was bemoaning what he perceives to be an upward trend in ticket prices to Cactus League games. I would guess this surcharge would add at least $2 or $3 to the price of every ticket.
From what I understand...
… it’s supposed to be $1 per ticket. That’s hardly an onerous burden on Cactus League fans — especially when Reinsdorf’s White Sox have been among the leaders in jacking prices far higher than they had been in the past when Camelback Ranch opened last year.
I repeat, Cubs fans not only lead the Cactus League every year in home attendance in Mesa, but they are a significant portion of the crowds at every road game. They’d be paying a significant part of this surcharge.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
On any given day
during ST in the Cactus League there are 6 or 7 games that do not involve the Cubs. Assuming an average of 6500 fans at those games, that is 45,000+ fans attending games on a typical day paying a surcharge who are not Cubs fans and probably could care less about the Cubs, They are subsidizing the Cubs new ST facility…hardly an equitable situation.
they could go back on their agreement with the Cubs
and tell the Cubs to go to Florida, that fixes the problem, right?
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Uh
you keep muddying the water in this thread, and it leads me to believe that you really don’t understand the dynamics here.
It is not the City of Mesa who has a problem with this – and they are the ones that have an agreement (MOU) with the Cubs.
The City of Mesa is in a great position in this agreement. They keep the Cubs, the Cubs buy the land and operate the stadium complex, someone else pays for the stadium, they get the tax benefits from the development of the land and presumably from fans staying and eating in Mesa.
Suggesting they go back on their agreement with the Cubs is goofy, they aren’t the ones that have raised an objection.
Here's the reverse of your argument about Cubs fans.
The Cubs play (approximately) 15 road games each spring. For most of them, they provide sellouts at many parks that would not otherwise sell out. Thus, each team is making quite a bit more money than they otherwise would, if a less-popular team were visiting.
Also, it is my understanding that the surcharge is not strictly for the Cubs, but for a pool that all Cactus League teams will be able to tap into for future improvements — INCLUDING for Camelback Ranch.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
plus the Cub fans at those games
are paying (home and road). A simple fix would be to lower tickets by $1 and then add the $1 “fee” to it, keeping the tix at the same price. But would Jerry and others be willing to do so?
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
How does that "fix" anything?
I am going to stop responding to your posts, they make no sense whatsoever.
it keeps the tic at the same price
meaning that the fans are not seeing a raise in tix price, didnt think it was so hard to understand that
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I could be wrong
but I think that last statement is incorrect. I think the surcharge is strictly to fund the Cubs stadium. If I am wrong about that, then I will stand corrected.
Bottom Line is this
I doubt the Cubs came up with this funding model. The Cubs have made a deal and it’s up to the City of Mesa and State of AZ to figure out how to fund the project.
Nobody should be mad at the Cubs for this idea.
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 6, 2010 12:52 PM CST up reply actions
Thank you...
And that really is the bottom line with this post.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 6, 2010 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
I'm working on getting clarification on the surcharge.
When I get the info, I’ll post it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
But
the Cubs created this situation by threatening to leave if they didn’t get what they wanted.
Personally, I think it would be ironic if this whole thing blows up and the Cubs wind up going to FL, which I am convinced they never really wanted to do in the 1st place.
in prior threads about this
you were in favor of the deals made to keep them, right?
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
As a resident of Mesa
I can see nothing but positives in this for Mesa.
At the same time, I think the “robbing Peter to pay Paul” aspect of it has a lot of fairness issues and I fully expected there to be fallout…which has now started.
i can see and agree with that
but how is it unfair for the Sox/LAD and other teams to have benefitted as recent as last season, while the Cubs are being torched by these same teams for it?
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Timing is EVERYTHING
besides, I don’t think the Cubs are being torched…it is not THEIR plan. All they want is a new ST facility. It is up to the City of Mesa/State of Arizona to come up with a way to pay for it.
The fact that this is happening when:
1) There have already been 3 other brand new state of the art facilities built in the past 2 years and that has tapped out the ATSA
2) The economy is in the tank, tourism is down, etc etc
3) The City of Mesa and the state of AZ have huge budget shortfalls
This is why the timing of this couldn’t possibly be worse. Hopefully, in a couple of years, at least 2 and 3 will be improved.
I agree.
Just remember, Jerry Reinsdorf essentially did the same thing when he went from Tucson to Glendale. For him to complain about this is the height of hypocrisy.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
he did it to get the US Cell as well
he did it TWICE and is not calling out the Cubs for it
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Reinsdorf
got to the ATSA money first. That really seems to be what is the issue.
But, OTOH, the White Sox move from Tucson to Glendale was what allowed the Cactus League to attract the Dodgers, which is the single biggest boon for ST in Arizona in the last 40 years.
I think the Dodgers were going to eventually move to AZ anyway.
Their place in Vero Beach really was decades out of date, and it makes a lot more sense for them to be a one-hour flight from their fanbase instead of a five-hour flight.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The Dodger wouldn't move to AZ
without a new facility and the Sox desire to move to PHX from Tucson gave them that. Otherwise, no facility, no Dodgers.
and the Sox/LAD splitting the proffits
from the stadium I am sure is a huge reason why the Sox have come out against the Cubs deal, They want their money, and dont want revenue sharing (so to speak) from their ticket prices to go to the CUbs
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Again
then why are the D’Backs also coming out against the ticket surcharge? They do not have the same type of revenue sharing deal.
I also think it is likely that other teams will join in the objection as well.
probably cuz they are loking to relocate
and have informed Tucson that they are leaving after 2010. Money spent on the Cubs cannot be requested by the Diamondbacks for any move to Mesa they might have been working to request.
arizona diamondbacks tell tucson theyre leaving
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
The D'Backs
in 2011 will move into a new facility in Scottsdale that is being built by the Salt River/Pima Indian community and construction is already well under way.
The D-Backs have their stadium deal…in Scottsdale (the Indian reservation to be more accurate), not Mesa.
If you are going to inform yourself about issues you know nothing about (i.e., ST in AZ, concerts at Camelback Ranch, etc) by Googling, then make sure you are getting the latest and most current info. This is old stuff that is not relevant.
The D-Backs have their stadium deal…in Scottsdale (the Indian reservation to be more accurate), not Mesa.
i guess saying
MIGHT means I am stating it as fact. I just noted that they are leaving their home and moving, and that they MIGHT have been looking to Mesa (Might means MAYBE, as in I DO NOT KNOW), so please do not mix my words
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
so is ignoring truths which you have
such as other teams bled the prior plan dry, and the Cubs happen to be the next team in line to reap the benefits. Since other teams bled it dry getting stadiums, too bad for their ticket prices. They can raise the price the $1 or they can take in $1 less from each fan by laving the tix at the same price for their fans who they seem so concerned about (roughly $6k a game for non Cub games) to offset the difference. Not hard to understand.
This is not about the fans, and that is a crock of crap, you know it, i know it, we all know it. This is about the Sox., and DBacks not wanting to assist the Cubs, and I understand that. But these teams have benefitted in the past, so its hypocritical
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
It's a pattern for "Cubbie-Tim."
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
You've consistently...
been a dick in this thread. I don’t quite understand why, but it’s not necessary.
Oh, and BTW
part of the statement by Hall was ""It’s really a catch-22 because we would love for the Cubs to stay – just not at the expense of our fans," Hall said. “The other 13 teams in the Cactus League feel the same way.”
If this is just a Jerry Reinsdorf issue, why do the other 14 teams agree with him?
where have the others spoken out
i will not take Hall or Reinsdorf as the spokesmen for the other teams. I remember the lies from Reinsdorf about Jackson and the Bulls to this day (for example of his honesty in the press)
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I haven't heard a statement from "the other 13 teams".
Just Hall and Reinsdorf.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Hall
made the definitive statement that “the other 13 teams in the Cactus League feel the same way” and I assure you he is smart enough that he would not say that unless it knew it to be true.
it was tongue in cheek
but everything that the owners of ANY other team says to complain about this is not only ironic and ignorant, but contradictory of what they have said/done in the past by using tax dollars raised to benefit their multi million dollar company (example,, the Sox that leases a stadium from the tax payers, but gets the profitable gains from naming rights, parking, etc)
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Well of course the bulk of my ST money is spent in Scottsdale
I don’t really want to argue how the facility gets funded, but just to point out the entire Phoenix area gets a lot of financial benefit of the Cubs playing in Mesa.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 6, 2010 2:25 PM CST up reply actions
There is no argument about that
but the entire area benefits from the Dodgers, Giants, Mariners, etc playing here also and fair is fair.
Cubs bring more benefit on a team vs team comparrision
ticket sales alone prove this. Cubs average approx 4k more fans per game.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
But
all of the new stadiums are two team complexes, so if you factor in the fact that there are twice as many home dates at those facilities, at those stadiums (Camelback, Goodyear, Peoria, Surprise and soon Scottsdale), the total attendance is actually more than the Cubs.
Camelback Ranch had 238,000 fans last year at 30 games…Hohokam had 205,000 at 19 games.
getting technical
in the games at Camelback Ranch, attendance average for Cub visiting games vs non Cub games? Provide those numbers, they tell a more true story, since CUb fans are at all Cub games in larger number.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
not getting technical
the total attendance at all Camelback Ranch games is representative of the true economic value to the area.
The average game attendance for each team is only of academic interest.
By the way, the difference in per game attendance between the Cubs and the Dodgers is only about 1500 per game, and I suspect that will shrink even more in the coming years as last year was the Dodgers first year here.
if the Cubs draw average 4k more per game as stated in the article
could we say that the games the Cubs play at Camelback inflate the numbers for the stadium, i.e. the Cubs moved, those games draw x less, meaning the attendance is less than what you posted. I am not trying to argue, just getting technical about the attendance game
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Yes, it is acknowledged that
the Cubs inflate attendance at away games in the Cactus League, just as the D’Backs, Dodgers and Giants do.
But, the Cubs only played 2 games at Camelback Ranch in 2009. That is 2 games out of 30, so they didn’t add to the total attendance THAT much.
you are trying to really argue
about 30k more fans over 11 extra games? azjazzman you are not really trying to make such an argument, i hope. look at the average attendance
238,000/30 < 205000/19
had AZ have just said bye and sent the Cubs packing to Fla i guarantee that the Sox, DBacks and other teams would have been complaining about the lower attendance due to them leaving. Its a double edged sword, and paying to keep the Cubs was deemed the lesser of two evils by those in charge.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
You are REALLY dense
the point is that there ARE extra games because the complex houses two teams. This makes the whole enterprise more profitable/economically viable for everyone.
At the end of the day the only thing that matters is tickets purchased, hotel rooms used and restaurant meals served. The fact that Camelback Ranch had more fans in the park in 2009 than Hohokam did is significant, it is what drives the whole model.
And, as I have shown, if the Cubs were not around in 2009, the impact on Camelback Ranch specifically, would have been minimal.
Dense no
maybe you should read what was said in defense of keeping them, about the money they would stand to lose if the Cubs left. The lose of the Cubs was greater than the gain of the Sox (since you want to play semantics, we will use ONLY ONE TEAM at Camelback, not two teams vs one).
I am done with you about this topic. It is obvious you are against it, and defending two teams who had a person speak out about it, when in particular one of those two have not been the most honest person in the press before, and I refuse to accept their statement as the represenation of 15 teams being against the Cubs deal.
Also, if you are so upset about what the AZ Gov is going to do (state, local, whichever branch is doing that) then move away from there and start new somewhere else where this wont be such a burden in your life.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Dense is being kind
the reality is that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing and have yet to make a salient point in any of these dozens of posts.
You know nothing of my feelings about this deal. I am not personally against it. It’s just that I totally get why the 14 other teams in the Cactus League would object.
The rest of your post would be laughable if it weren’t so mean spirited. The fact that I live here and am more directly impacted I think entitles me to have an opinion.
But more that that, the fact that, unlike you, I actually know something about the history of the Cactus League, actually understand the issues involved and what the proposals actually do, put me at a disadvantage trying to discuss it with you, given that you just fling out stuff, with no attempt at staying on topic, relevant or even factually accurate.
every point i make you either ignore
or twist it
again have a great weekend, you are a waste of time on this topic
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
no
I refute every point you make by using indisputable facts, which is a concept you are obviously unfamiliar with.
you skip over links i provide you
showing you to be wrong, and you spin what i say such as ST AND HOME CITIES into meaning CACTUSS LEGUE ALONE. You have a vested interest living there, sure, but that is causing you to view this with blinders
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Tim...
… I’d suggest you drop it. I know azjazzman personally, and in fact, he does have knowledge of the situation that you don’t.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
fine, but when he skips over
links i give him showing what he says to be inaccurate, and twisting my words is horse shit Al, and you know it. Friend of yours or not, that is horse shit
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
What link did you provide
that shows what I said to be inaccurate? I have looked at your links and I don’t see a one.
What I do see are links with old information that is not relevant…about a concert at Camelback that didn’t happen, D’Backs wanting to leave Tucson, which is a done deal, etc.
for starters LAD moving for not getting
what they want. While you answer questions not asked, and not answer what is asked, and stating untrue as facts (all teams are complaining, when only two have done so).
Again, you might be a friend of Al’s. but your inability to take blinders off is hilarious
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
First of all
I said what team has threatened to leave the CACTUS League. The Dodgers do not fit that description.
Secondly, the Dodgers are not a good example because their facilities were so antiquated it was ridiculous. Their stadium did not even have dugouts. They gave Vero Beach every opportunity to do right by them and they were completely justified in leaving. Not the same scenario at all.
With "Cubbie-Tim" it's...
… like this, without the clever humor.
“Cubbie-Tim” baited me into an argument with this, “didnd Dr Crawdad say that bashing of the Cubs didnt happen at their Fan Fest while he took shots at the Cub fans about it happening?”
Interesting that I never have claimed that Sox fans don’t bash the Cubs at SoxFest.
There have been other asinine claims by Cubbie-Tim too that have easily been swatted away. I think he’s learned his debating from BillO and Hannity, without their degree of smarts.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
bull, I remember you saying it cuz I LMAO
do you think anyone here cares what you think about one of our own???? If it wasn’t Tim it would be anyone here…..you’re wasting your time troll….and your profile its bull too….you, like everyone else who come here to make trouble cant stand what goes on here….we have fun. that is all
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
asking a question was not baiting
but whatever. i gave u links asnwering what you asked for about Sox fans saying they dont care, then showing where they continue on about it.
and when it comes to debating, i did bill collections for close to a decade before moving into finance. that is debating like nobody’s business, try it and see for yourself. every call is a debate.
many times on here you asked for facts, in many threads, and each time presented with them, you skip them and sometimes even change your stance, that is not debating.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
A question based on a false premise...
many times on here you asked for facts, in many threads, and each time presented with them, you skip them and sometimes even change your stance, that is not debating.
Not answering questions is par for the course here (and other places of course).
In fact just today Al made a statement about me. I asked for proof, some substance for his claim. No response.
Dodging direct questions happens. However, I’ve directly answered your questions and wasted hours doing so. Then only to have you claim that I didn’t answer your questions.
If you don’t like me or my manner of discussion, fine. Buy why not leave me out of it. And I’ll try to skip over your posts, if only there was an ignore feature…
azjazzman has you pegged.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
If what you're doing now isn't baiting....
…I don’t know what is.
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie" -- Tony Montana
Please leave this j-idiot alone
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
wow, i guess asking a question
in your mind is accusing you when that is not what i did nor was doing.
that being said, why is it that each time in a thread you are shown where you are full of it, you leave the thread then later come to another thread? hell, two DrC threads ago ballhawk pointed out how you were the pot calling the chicken black, and what did you do….skip town only to return today and stir more shit all over again.
and of course in that post, i asked a question, saying “x was fact, right?” which you take as me stating it is 100% fact, instead of saying yes or no, and here is why. maybe you need to learn that when a question is posed, it means that I am asking a question, not saying a statement in a form of a question lol
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Have you stopped beating your wife?
It’s just a question.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
by DrCrawdad on Feb 6, 2010 7:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
flagged
that is beyond not called for, and you know it. you said that with one purpose, to engage and enrage.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
No, it's an example of the type of ...
… question you poised to me.
…cry to Al…
Ah, you like doing that don’t YOU!
If you don’t want me to respond, please just leave me alone.
Adios!
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
asking
didnt DrC say Sox fans dont bash the Cubs at Sox Fest
is nothing like what you said. you went for a personal blow, and a direct insult.
FWIW I have not once raised a hand in anger to a lady, in fact I have raised money in the past to help abused and battered women.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Please leave him alone...come to the Nady thread
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
"Please leave him alone..."
…and leave me out of the discussion.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
i didnt bring you into this one
you came here strictly to pick a fight DrC, which is a sad thing.
have a great weekend
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Short-term memory problems?
My first post today at BCB was when YOU baited me into a discussion.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
i asked a question
was not bait. you took it that way, and misquoted it many times after doing so.
As was pointed out, you just linked about the Cub fans bashing the Sox, so I was incorrect, and that was fine, but you decided to go an entirely differnent route by making even joking that i am a wife beater in any means.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
and FWIW
when I asked you why you needed to bring the link here, when you admit that it happens at both the Cubs and Sox Fest, you never did answer.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
FWIW
about debating, what about when you state
The big difference… … I don’t know of Sox fans who’ve repeatedly said they don’t care about the Cubbies and then prove that by posting dozens and dozens of comments about them. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
“People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation.” by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
by DrCrawdad on Feb 6, 2010 12:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and I provide you
as i have given you before here is a second name of someone who says they care less about the cubs on SSS yet continue to post often about the Cubs
Where Triples Go to Die
such great posts as
HOW FUNNY WOULD IT BE IF WE ALL DRESSED UP LIKE CUB FANS AND TRIED TO ATTACK ZAMBRANO MID SEASON??? WILL BE POSTING ABOUT THIS SSS STYLE MEET-UP SHORTLY.
"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"
by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 18, 2010
which was two years after
Wow you are a moron! I could care less about the cubs. I just think it’s funny making fun of juicy fruits especially if they happen to be cub fans. Anyone who listens to ICP is a fag in my book, sox or cub fan.
"term: pussy, user: larry, count: 11
term: pussy, user: all, count: 83" – wiz
by Where Triples Go to Die on Jul 7, 2008
which is exactly the opposite of what you continue to say, that Sox fans who state they care less dont contnue on about the Cubs. He has some 70 post about the Cubs, mostly after he said that he doesnt care.
Wait for it….POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself…………………by BLou
by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 6, 2010 5:26 PM
both in the same thread, which you then ignore, while coming into this thread with a direct attempt to insult me.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Spot on! Spot on!
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
LMAO
you are the one who is disregarding facts, and you have misquoted so many over the time I have seen you on here
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Can't we all just get along?????
Common guys, we’re here to talk baseball, aren’t we?
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie" -- Tony Montana
Ok " fair is Fair"
They got public funding to build parks and that is what the Cubs want. The Cubs don’t care how they raise it.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 6, 2010 3:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
But the people paying for it
do care. It’s not a bottomless pit. The Cubs got a new park in 1997.
There is a part of me that wishes the Cubs had selected Naples and let the people there worry about how to pay for it.
who is paying for it?
if it is set to come from hotels, tickets, rental cars, etc? please enlighten us, it great detail, since you seem to know all
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I am a little confused on your position
I get that you think other teams are right to object to a ticket tax. Some of us do see Reinsdorf in particular as being a hypocrite on that. On the larger issue, I am pretty sure you posted during the
whole would the Cubs move to Naples time , that you thought Florida was a done deal and the Cubs were only toying with AZ. I know you were supportive of the deal for the Cubs to stay and thought it was
a good deal for both sides. What am I missing.
PS if the Cubs move to Florida, wouldn’t you miss driving me to games?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 6, 2010 6:30 PM CST up reply actions
What's fair about this?
Jazz, we all appreciate your ‘boots on the ground’ commentary on this issue but I’m getting frustrated with your fixation on ‘fairness’ as applied to everyone but the Cubs and Mesa. As I understand it, Mesa might lose the Cubs because the economy is bad and other Cactus league teams depleted the ATSA fund? That dosen’t sound fair to me. One of the Mesa city council members confided to me that 85% of tourism taxes are east of 7th Avenue and about 90% has been spent west of 7th Avenue. More fairness?
Well the only reason
he chose 7th Avenue is because that allows him to include the downtown hotels and convention center, which is by far the biggest generator of tourism taxes. And that area is right in the middle, between east and west. The second biggest generator of tourism taxes is the resorts in North Scottsdale, which isn’t part of this discussion either.
So, when you really analyze it, the vast majority of the money that funded UoP Stadium and the new ST complexes came from sources that have nothing to do with Spring Training or football stadiums.
Is that fair? No, it isn’t. But, that is what everyone agreed on way back when.
This is a whole new ball game and it remains to be seen how it will play out.
I gotta admit
Inspite of the Cubs proven benefit to the Cactus League and my borderline hysterical desire to keep the Cubs in Mesa, I do feel rather squeamish forcing other teams to finance the Cubs stadium. It would set an uncomfortable precedent.
Exactly
that is my feeling also.
This whole Cubs deal is unchartered water in a lot of ways. A lot of it makes sense and seems to benefit everyone. But, there are aspects that are just plain weird, and this ticket surcharge thing is part of that.
My prediction is that it will get dropped, or at least substantially altered before it gets passed.
yet that has been done before
public funds being used for stadiums both in ST and their home city. Where do the public funds come from? Other fans of other teams as well as locals who may or may not be a fan at all.
this is nothing new, jsut designed different, but same thing that has been done time and time again.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
isnt' that on
the city council, tho? I mean, it’s not the Cub’s decision, is it?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Feb 6, 2010 5:54 PM CST up reply actions
I think the ultimate decision lies with both the
AZ state legislature and the City of Mesa. The Cubs have already agreed in principle to remain in Mesa provided certain conditions are met. The first hurdle is a vote in the AZ state legislature to appropriate $59M (50% of the total project) through tourism fees & ticket surcharges. That milestone is expected on or before July. Assuming it passes, the next hurdle is a couple local votes to approve Mesa’s $25M contribution (20% of the total project).
Much has been made on this forum about the fairness of forcing other teams to finance the Cubs stadium. It will be interesting to see what the final appropriation bill looks like and whether it passes.
All of these funding streams based on tourism- ticket tax, rent-a-car tax etc.
are going to be in trouble in this economy. Less tourism means less tax revenue means bonds not getting paid off means, in the end, tax-payers being stuck with the bill. Attendance at spring training will no doubt be down again this year.
I’m sure the models being used to sell this project feature far rosier figures than the rather dire reality. Just in the past year alone, group meetings, real bread-and-butter for the Phoenix area economy, are off 25-30%. Phoenix is a tourist driven economy and in bad time tourist money can dry up.
The timing of this may end up making it a hard sell whether Reinsdorf and friends end up paying the Cub tax or not. And this is where the fuzzy math that produces figures like the Cubs meaning $54 million to the local economy can come back and bite them in the ass. I’m sure Reinsdorf can find another firm that can produce figures based on faulty math that will say the Cubs mean very little to the Sox’ success in Arizona.
It is fun watching billionaires and owners of private concerns have a showdown over tax revenues paid by the public. What could be more 21st century America?
It'll be interesting to see attendance figures for ST this year.
Last year, the average was down, because there were more games due to the WBC (19 home games vs. the usual 15). This year, back to 15 games, let’s see if the demand goes back up because of the smaller number of games.
5 of the 15 Cubs home ST games are on weekend dates, and there’s another one on a Friday vs. the Diamondbacks, whose own local fans will probably show up in large numbers.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I assume the Cubs attendance won't be down as much
as that of other teams. The fact that such an amazing number of Chicagoans either winter or have moved full-time to the Phoenix area assures the Cubs of outdrawing teams from smaller markets not to mention teams from markets with nicer weather whose fans don’t see five says in Phoenix in March as such a big deal.
You can't help but trip over the Chicagoans that have moved here
I was shopping for some groceries on Thursday and the checkout lady was from Oak Park and the lady behind me in line was from Downer’s Grove. We were all talking Cubs baseball.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
that is common in the south, to be honest
cuz the south is not as cold, and less expensive for cost of living. almost anywhere i go in Texas i run into Chicagoans as well
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Of course Chairman Jerry
Of course Chairman Jerry is forgetting people bought his new stadium in Chicago with a tax on tourism.
Ironically guys when we attend the Cubs convention and stay part of the taxes we pay pay for the Cell.
2/18/2010 B&B become a We
Right. That's what these guys love.
Conventioneers, cultural tourists, business tourists etc. all paying for a venue, the Cell, that very very few tourists ever visit. It makes zero sense but for the business owner it’s a dream come true. The politicians are able to sell it to Chicagoans by saying it’s payed for by tourists. But every time you create a tax like this and funnel the revenues directly to a single private business, you close the stream to civic projects that could benefit far more people both from in and out of town.
not to mention
once the item that the monies are raised to pay for is paid off, the fee/tax (whatever they like to call it) doesnt go away, in some cases I bet there is an increase on it (like Toll Roads for example, which were to be short term and, well, as we know they never will go away)
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
That is true sometimes
but not always. The sales tax that funded Chase Field was rescinded once the stadium was paid for. There are other examples. Sometimes it is written in to the legislation that a special funding mechanism will be allowed to expire at the end of a certain period of time.
so the public funded the stadium
meaning fans of teams that dont play home games there helped fund it, which is exactly what the complaint is about the Cubs new compex.
prime example of the pot calling the kettle black
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
No
as per usual, you are dead wrong. It was a Maricopa County 1/4 % sales tax that funded Chase Field. Everyone who made purchases in Maricopa County, baseball fans or not, contributed.
that has what to do with the Cubs new complex
as i asked. WTF is with you inability to actually reply to what I state, not what you want to
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Let's see
you started your post by making an inaccurate statement about how Chase Field was paid for, and then asked how is that different from the Cubs proposal.
I corrected what you said about Chase. I and others have stated many times over how this proposal for the Cubs stadium is not only different from the way other stadiums were paid for, it is unprecedented here locally.
You have chosen to ignore that information. WTF is wrong with you?
lets see, a sales tax is funds gathered from the public
no matter what team that person paying the tax happens to like or not like.
I asked you about the Cubs stadium, which I thought was the prime topic, and you answered about anything but that. I asked you to enlighten us, in detail, about the finances for the Cubs proposed stadium, and you told me about sales tax being nont a public way to raise funds (come again?).
Friend of AL’s or not, you are arguing with blinders and you have more than once skipped over and disregarded facts I have given to you. I am tired of wasting my time with your ignorance, and misquotes (or answering a question that wasnt asked)
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I'm done
I’m sorry, I have tried to be civil…but you are an IDIOT. You have contributed nothing whatsoever to this thread.
I guess stating facts, such as a sales tax being a public fund
and asking you to actually ask a question i ask, instead of answering a question i didnt ask makes me an idiot, wow.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
You said
that Chase Field was financed by fan’s of other teams. You have yet to support that bizarre and factually incorrect statement.
You continue to show how lacking in ideas you are and how incapable you are of understanding basic concepts with every subsequent post.
a sales tax was charged, as you stated
and you cannot honestly say that ONLY FANS of THAT TEAM paid that sales tax.
as you stated
Maricopa County 1/4 % sales tax that funded Chase Field
so people paid the tax, who in sime cases I guearantee were not a fan of the team playing there, and in some cases likely were not even a fan of baseball
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I think you need to stop here.
You’re sniping and nitpicking. Enough.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
no its taking his own facts
and showing him how I am correct on my statement about fans of other teams having paid for it in the past. a tax increase affects everyone, fan or not, a ticket fee (which the $1 sounds more like) only affects baseball fans, so its actually a better route to raising the money. charge baseball fans for a baseball stadium for a baseball team.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
OK, this is no longer a request.
Stop here. Now. Enough.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
REinsdorf and the D-Backs guy are hypocrites.
Their home ballparks and their spring training facilities were all paid for by public funds.
The new D'Backs ST facility
is being built by the Salt River/Pima Indian Community.
The Cubs could have also gone this route, but their desire to be involved with the commercial development surrounding the ballpark precluded that.
In any event, I don’t think Reinsdorf or Hall have any objection to public funding of ST facilities. Their objection is to a ticket surcharge being implemented to finance a ST facility.
Taxing everyone to pay for one team's stadium is WRONG
A lot of people are missing the real point here – it’s not about using public funds to build a stadium (almost every team does it) it’s the unprecedented act of raising the prices to all other games (not just the Cubs) through this tax. Arguments about the Cubs being a large draw are not relevant – this tax would apply to games that they aren’t playing in and their fans aren’t attending. Other team’s public funding arrangements are also irrelevant since they are not charging fans at other parks for it.
If there needs to be a ticket surcharge to pay for this, it should only apply to Cubs games. Adding a tax to Cubs games played at other facilities might be fair since it would pull directly from the larger attendance draw other teams benefit from. Taxing just Cubs games should not be an issue – if the Cubs are selling out their ticket prices are obviously too low, so raising prices with an additional tax to pay for a new stadium shouldn’t hurt attendance too much.
When you consider that revenue sharing exists in MLB...
I find it hard to take anyone seriously when they make such a big stink about this.
revenue sharing and luxury taxes
especially when teams benefitting from them dont always use the monies for their on field talent.
if the Cactus League wants the Cubs they knew it would cost them. The AZ residents and Government (especially in/around Mesa) were flipping about the possibility of losing the Cubs to Florida, and now they are complaining about how the funds are being raised. I understand that taxing other fans (so to speak) seems a tad wrong, but so does taxing the Cubs and their fans (in the domino effect) so that the Marlins owner can pocket the money.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
HAHAHAHAHA!!!
Some have already pointed it out, but he held the city and state hostage with his thread to move to Tampa in the 1980’s, and now he’s upset about this?!?!?
This from the man who claimed John Cusack “betrayed” him because he rooted for the Cubs after being at a White Sox game.
Stay classy, Jerry! Have another beer with Freddy Garcia!
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 6, 2010 8:35 AM CST reply actions 5 recs
*threat
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 6, 2010 8:35 AM CST up reply actions
Couldn't have said it better myselff
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Of course he's upset about this.
Reinsdorf held up the state of Illinois by threatening to move to Florida and got a tax through the city and state that profited his business directly.
Now the Ricketts have held up the state of Arizona by threatening to move to Florida hoping to get a tax that will profit their business directly. And tourists, the overwhelming majority of whom had no intention of ever seeing a Sox game in Chicago or anywhere else for that matter, payed the bill. In other words OPM – Other People’s Money. (OPM is a joke Reinsdorf has actually used in the presence of a couple of friends of mine)
Had Reinsdorf gotten a copyright on the tactic of playing Florida against the place you really want to be, he could have sued the Ricketts for infringement, so beautifully have they followed the master’s playbook. But imagine Jerry watching the younger Ricketts pull this off to perfection and then watch in horror as it’s turned on his business – “A tax to help someone else? WTF??!!!!” Jerry must have bellowed. “I didn’t ask the Cubs for help when I built my sterile bowl on the southside! That’s the job of the public!”
by the nth on Feb 6, 2010 9:11 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
As I see it...
… Cubbie fans have belly-ached since The Cell was built that they had to pay for it too.
Now, how do you think the Cubs and Cubbie fans would react IF the situation were reversed and Cubbie fans were directly paying for a new Sox ST complex?
Reinsdorf doesn’t like this situation as clearly other teams owners don’t. Reinsdorf is a piece of work, yeah right.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
Happy to be turned green.
Even if the first sentence of the second paragraph was supposed to be the last. Don’t know how that happened but thankfully the point was made – Reinsdorf – not so good.
Another friend of mine who grew up in NJ had a story about Jerry Reinsdof’s dad. My friend’s dad bought some kind of machines from a buy who had gone out of business. Reinsdorf’s dad, a competitor of my friend’s dad, got wind of the deal and asked if he could buy any of the machines. My friend’s dad, who didn’t need all the machines said, “Sure. Meet me at the factory tomorrow at 9:00, I’ll decide what I want and you can make your own deal for the rest.”
So my friend’s dad got there at 9:00 only to find the place empty. Reinsdorf’s dad had gone behind his back, cut his own deal with the guy for a few bucks more, gotten there at 6:00, loaded every machine onto his trucks and was back in Brooklyn by 9:00. What a family.
rec'd
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
rec'd
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I think Jerry's comments
are to put something, ANYTHING in the Chicago papers regarding the White Sux. The bulk of Cubs reporting the last 6 weeks or more has been about the Mesa/Naples decision, while the South Siders have generated nothing of interest to talk bout this winter. LOL
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
I dunno. I was pretty interested
in their efforts to construct the oldest bench in MLB. But that’s just me.
"Only a mediocre person is always at his best." ~W. Somerset Maugham
I love the Mayor of Mesa's response...
I don’t know how to put text in a quote box, but here’s the gist of it…
“Is this the same Jerry Reinsdorf that skipped out on Pima County taxpayers who had spent tens of millions of dollars to provide him with a taxpayer-funded stadium, to come to Glendale, where Maricopa County taxpayers provided him a Taj Mahal spring-training facility?” Smith said.
Smith also said Reinsdorf’s White Sox play in a publicly funded ballpark in Chicago, and that Reinsdorf looked into buying the Phoenix Coyotoes, who play in a publicly funded facility in Glendale.
“The irony is delicious,” Smith said.
by kanderber on Feb 6, 2010 12:13 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
OK
but what about Derrick Hall of the D’Backs, who also has a problem with this plan?
Also note the White Sox paid Pima County $5M to leave for Glendale.
Let's not kill the messenger...
kanderber is just reporting the quote.
Maybe you should take this up with your local politicians, although it looks like your world view is in the minority on this one.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 6, 2010 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
My response
was to the quote, not to the poster.
You (and several other posters on here) don’t seem to grasp what this is about. Has nothing to do with local politicians, none of which, to the best of my knowledge, have weighed in on this plan yet (other than the Mayor of Mesa, who proposed the plan to begin with).
It has to do with two of the members of the Cactus League, the White Sox and the D’Backs (and I’m sure others eventually) raising an objection – one which any fair minded person would have to agree has merit.
Then I guess
we’re not all that fair minded. Of course, many of us live in Chicago, where we’ve seen firsthand some of this Reinsdorf nonsense before.
Frankly, I think we understand this issue well enough. We just don’t want to hear it from owners who’ve grabbed taxpayer funds in the past for their businesses, which by the way are often levied in part upon disinterested parties, and now cry about unfair surcharges.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 6, 2010 12:33 PM CST up reply actions
what is your personal opinion on this?
remove the other teams quotes, etc, how do you feel about this?
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I think
the objections of other Cactus League teams has merit. This is unchartered water from the get-go – from the Cubs rather unreasonable request to get a new stadium when the one they are playing in is only 12 years old (they play the regular season in a stadium that is 90+ years old!) to the creative financing proposed when the ATSA is tapped out.
The Cubs using leverage and threats of leaving to get what they want rubs me the wrong way – as a resident of Mesa who is directly effected by all this. I applaud the Mayor for coming up with a plan that benefits Mesa and costs them next to nothing, but I think this is far from a done deal, and I suspect before this is over, the folks in Naples, FL will get a chance to see what kind of a deal they can put together…and I think they will have some difficulties, too.
I think the war has barely begun…it will be fun to watch.
threats to leave
like other teams have done and will do again in the future to get what they want (from their home or ST city).
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I am trying to think
of another team in the Cactus League that got a new stadium by threatening to leave the League and am not coming up with anyone. Please provide an example.
you are trying to narrow to Cactus League alone
what about where the Dodgers threatened to leave FLorida unless…..and they then left. And the Sox did the same. Why you continue to try and be ignorant to such a thing is beyone me. And the Dodgers had a lease signed thru 2020 and opted out early to bolt, over a new stadium issue.
have a good weekend.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
The Dodgers didn't threaten to leave Florida
They DID leave Florida.
Threats are just that…threats. When you actually do what you are threatening to do, then, by definition, it is no longer a threat.
The Dodgers did NOT sign the lease option that they had with Vero Beach that would have run to 2020, they opted out, as was their right, in 2009.
Get your facts straight before you start spouting.
ignorance is bliss
they threatened to laeve if they didnt get what they wanted. Florida balked, and they left for AZ where they got what they wanted. Same fkin thing as what the Cubs did. we want “x” and if you dont give it to us, they will and we will go there.
I know you are in AZ and feel that makes anything you say correct, but you are wrong about this. LAD and other teams have done this over the years BOTH AT ST AND THEIR HOME CITY (which you decided to conveniently read as Cactus League only lol) and monies were from public funds, and that included the White Sox and their US Cellular Field. Reinsdorf trying to argue the Cubs are wrong for it is hilarious, since non Sox fans paid for their new home 20 years ago.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
To me the age of Hohokam is irrelevant
Hohokam was and still is a great place to view games. It is what happens after games conclude that should be pushing the city of Mesa into action. I know, I’ve been doing the same ritual for years. After the last out all remaining fans file out to their cars and sit for a mind numbing hour waiting their turn to leave. If Mesa builds a new stadium surrounded by Chicago style hotels, restaurants, and taverns? Well, sit back and watch what happens. The loss in potential sales tax revenue is staggering.
It's not a mind numbing hour if you know where to park and how to get out.
Just sayin’.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well, the interesting thing is
you hear negative comments about the traffic flow in and out of some of the newer ST stadiums all the time, so there is no guarantee that it will be any better at a new Cubs stadium.
The second part of your post, I don’t get. Part of the logic of this deal is that it will allow Mesa to capture more sales tax revenue, not less. How do you figure it will be less?
I agree with you about Hohokam. I think it is perfectly fine as a ST ballpark. The crux of the Cubs issues seem to be with ancillary facilities, and it seems to me the existing facilities (Fitch Park, etc) could be upgraded to meet those requirements. Whether they could add practice fields or not, I don’t know. I never thought the issue of Fitch being 3/4s of a mile from Hokokam was a major deal to anyone.
My sense is that the driving force behind this has more to do with the Wrigleyville West concept than it does with the stadium itself.
About ancillary facilities...
… if you look at what the new complexes have, their practice fields are far superior to Fitch. Even the indoor batting cage now being constructed won’t make it comparable. Yes, the 3/4 mile drive is a problem, because they have to drive, not just walk over or ride a golf cart. You’ve been to Camelback, and Surprise, and Peoria — all far superior facilities.
Agreed that the Wrigleyville West concept is a major driving force.
Also, I believe you are correct — with the new stadium likely to seat 15,000 (up from the current 13,000), traffic is likely to be worse, not better.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
So what
if they have to drive 3/4s of a mile? How is that a major deal?
I get that the new stadiums have superior practice facilities. But, I can’t help but wonder if they couldn’t tear down Fitch, acquire some adjacent land and rebuild a facility that is comparable to the newer ones for a whole lot less than $100M.
"Acquire some adjacent land".
There’s the problem. You know there are condos on that land. How much would it cost to buy all that land?
I think the Cubs are right to want something that’s in line with the new complexes. Hard to believe that HoHoKam is obsolete only 13 years after it was built, but that’s the reality.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Not practical
Pull up the area on Google Earth. The only open space is a cemetery directly across the street from Hohokam. That space would’ve been perfect but after watching the movie Poltergeist I can’t recommend pursuing it.
The area to the east is mostly
run down and I bet you could buy the property or use eminent domain to condemn some of it without too much trouble. They do it all the time. They condemned property they needed for the light rail and met with little resistance. It’s not like this is a fashionable neighborhood.
There is "farm" acreage
just a block south of the park, down Center.
It’s a fairly large parcel of land. Many times I park by Fitch Park and walk north on Center to the park, passing this lot. I’ve always wondered why the owner never sold the parcel off.
Perhaps he likes growing cotton or soybeans, who knows.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Feb 6, 2010 8:02 PM CST up reply actions
Sorry, my post was poorly worded...
I was trying to imply that Mesa is losing a ton of potential sales revenue by maintaining Hohokam. Instead of people sticking around after games spending $$$ they simply leave the area en mass. Nobody knows where the preponderance of these folks go but presumably most spill over into the surrounding communities.
If you knew you’d have a consistent & predictable 200,000 people held captive in one area wouldn’t you want to fully exploit that situation?
oh absolutely
I think that is a major reason why Mesa is so focused on moving the Cubs to east Mesa…to get fans to stay in the area and spend money.
Right, and that's why...
… building a Wrigleyville West, in an area that has been earmarked for resort development, is the best idea.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't think
anyone is arguing the viability and benefits of the project. Even Derrick Hall said that. It is the little matter of who and how it gets paid for that is the issue.
This screams common sense to me
When times are tough you cut back on non-essential services. You do not cut back your support for projects that promote revenue growth. It’s when times are bad that you most need good governance.
Well, yeah
but what exactly is Mesa doing here? The Cubs are buying the land and they are asking the state to consider taxes/surcharges to pay for the stadium. This morning I read for the first time that Mesa is supposed to kick in $23M, but even that seems a drop in the bucket compare to the economic benefit.
I think what Mayor Smith orchestrated
is dowright brilliant. As I understand it, the city of Mesa would be on the hook for only 20% of the adjusted overall project cost of $119M. Even the most cynical Mesa voter should love that cost/benefit ratio. I truly wish Scott was representing my interests here in Iowa. I once sent a scalding email to the mayor accusing him of sloth, indifference, and incompetence. Don’t I feel stupid now?
I like Hall better....
…. when he was just a radio sports talk show host here.
http://insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/archives/2009/01/derrick-halls-i.html
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
wow
just wow
MAKE THIS GREEN
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
This is all in a state of flux
Nothing is set in stone at this point. Cost amounts, financing plans, etc are being negotiated – per this article.
Key paragraph from that link
Because of resistance from some that people across Maricopa County would pay for a Mesa facility, some lawmakers want the taxes to raise additional money for improvements to other spring training complexes in the Valley. Lawmakers are talking with tourism industry and baseball officials to see what they would or would not support before they set tax rates in the bill, he said.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
so its a fight about which stadium to pour the monies into
not about raising it or not
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
The additional "tourist" tax
that is being proposed, will not, by itself, generate enough revenue to build the Cubs stadium, that is why the ticket surcharge is needed.
So, this is a straw man. There will be no extra money for other ST facilities, as the ATSA is tapped out until something like 2020.
To imply that the entire Cactus League will benefit from these extra surcharges is disingenuous, because the revenue generated will barely cover the cost of the Cubs facility, there will be nothing left for other uses.
how much does the fact that the Sox get to keep all profits (split with LAD)
change how this is viewed regarding the Sox outcry?
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Anybody that thinks there is big money
in any of this is kidding themselves.
I don’t believe it is a money issue for Reinsdorf as much as it is a fairness issue. If it is true that the money generated by the ticket surcharge would go to finance improvements at all Cactus League ballparks, as Al asserts, then I bet the White Sox and D-Backs objections go away.
The concerts you refer to…to the best of my knowledge, there has been none.
Bob Dylan - Willie Nelson - John Mellencamp - Camelback Ranch - Glendale - 08/11/2009
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
ahhh ok
btw did you see this
Fees collected at the 14,000 rooms in Scottsdale, the 5,000 near Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport, the 10,000 in Mesa and Chandler, the 5,500 in Tempe, the 8,000 in central Phoenix and the 7,700 along Interstate 17 have been used to build largely West Valley facilities, including Goodyear Ballpark for the Cleveland Indians and Cincinnati Reds and Camelback Ranch for the Dodgers and White Sox.
so if I understand this correct, other teams have had theirs financed using hotel fees being added to fans who may or may not have been a fan of the teams that were beneffiting from it, so its no different than a teams fan paying a fee on a ticket
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Again
I don’t know how many times I have to say this before it will penetrate.
The “bed/rental car tax” that was initiated years ago to fund the ATSA was to be used for a variety of purposes. One was Cactus League upgrades. Another was UofPhx stadium. Another was youth ball fields.
The difference here is that not only is an additional tax being proposed just to fund the Cubs stadium, but a ticket surcharge, which is what is being objected to, is to benefit only the Cubs project.
Can you see the difference?
and other teams bled it dry getting new stadium
and the Cubs are wrong for wanting things to be done for them, when they average 4k more fans per game to the other teams. The top dog deserves special treatment, we see it every day in life, and in the Cactus League, its the Cubs.
no need imply I dont understand, I am understanding what you are saying, and I continue to try to explain that other teams bled it dry building their own stadiums, and are not upset that they are (basically) being asked to kick some money back towards the Cubs stadium deal.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
The Cubs got a new stadium
in 1997, which really isn’t that long ago, but before the ATSA. Only stadiums built in the last five years got ATSA money…and that is where the “timing is everything” comment came from.
One of the points made by the D’Backs president I think is really to the point. Last year, when the D’Backs and Rockies had a desire to move to Phoenix from Tucson and knowing that the ATSA was tapped out and that the economy was tanking, they got creative and made a deal with the Indian tribe, who is flush with gaming income, to get a stadium deal.
In other words, rather than burden a system that was already stretched to it’s breaking point, they did it another way.
I think the Cubs would have been smart to follow that lead…but they got greedy. They rejected that avenue and preferred to further stress the ATSA so that they could control the surrounding land. It may yet blow up in their face.
just curious
were they offered from Mesa and the ATSA, did they contact and try with them, or make a decision based on what they thought was best for them without exploring.
Everyone one of us is pissing in the wind with half details, since there is so much behind the door workings that none of us know.
The Cubs are the most important team to Cactus League, and that is not an opinion, but fact. The people who are in charge did what they beliee is best, and the other teams are upset about it, too fkn bad to those teams. That is part of life
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
The D'Backs/Rockies
solicited proposals for a new ST complex and the City of Mesa elected not to bid, because there was no way to fund the stadium.
And there you have the crux of the problem. A year ago they could not bid on the D’Backs because there was no way to fund it (no ATSA money) and here a year later, the money problem is even worse and they are trying to cobble together a plan to build a stadium for the Cubs.
so they said no then
and decided to try something different for the Cubs. Nothing wrong with that.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
That is a convoluted way to look at it
Here’s what is reality: Faced with a budget crisis and no way to pay for a stadium, Mesa decided not to get in a bidding war for the D’Backs/Rockies complex.
Then, faced with threats of the Cubs moving to Florida and losing a major tourist engine that they have already invested considerable money in, Mesa chose to get creative. It remains to be seen if their plan will work.
FYI your rebuttle about not sharing HoHoKam is wrong
Chicago Cubs (MLB) (spring training) (1997-present)
Mesa Solar Sox (AFL) (1997-present)
Mesa Miners (GBL) (2005)
Arizona State (Pac-10) (2002)
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
i was trying to be tongue in cheek
and FWIW Arizona State would have been during ST since the NCAA season starts in February
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
And all the ticket revenue
generated went to the university, not the City of Mesa. They simply leased the stadium to ASU for a minimal amount.
I don't recall an ASU game ever being played at HoHoKam DURING spring training.
It must have been before ST started.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
they played
32 of 35 at HoHoKam
http://thesundevils.cstv.com/sports/m-basebl/spec-rel/121301aab.html
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Without a schedule at that link...
… my statement stands.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
seeing as the games start for
NCAA mid to late February, they overlap
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I found a schedule.
They did play 13 home games during March. My guess is that they were all night games.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
here is the schedule
but according to your boy Al, I am just linking incorrect facts, so you might want to ask him if this is a valid link
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
seems no one has mentioned this
only one stadium in the Cactus league is run how Camelback Ranch is. All other stadiums, the city gets the profits and loses to deal with, and get the proceeds from the ads, etc. Camelback (CWS.LAD) have to handle these gains/loses, so Reinsdorf is financially affected, and complaining, even though the city paid $110 Million towards the stadium being built
The city spent $110 million of its own money on construction, but ceded full control over sponsorship and ticket revenues to the joint venture. That passed any profits –- but also any operating losses -– to the joint venture.
"In Arizona, all the other spring training stadiums are subsidized by the city," said Julie Frizoni, Glendale’s marketing director. "By the time bills are paid and revenue is counted, operating and maintenance could cost up to $1 million annually." …
The joint venture with the White Sox, meanwhile, could become profitable if a strong ticket base is built, events are booked year-round and some sponsorships eventually generate revenue.
Looks to me like Reinsdorf is more pissed he will make less money, but it was cool for him to benefit from the city pumping money into building it for him. Those concerts played at Camelback Ranch during non ST time, guess who gets paid from them. Thats right Reinsdorf and the White Sox do. It is all about the finances behind baseball, not about what is right or wrong for the fans. Anyone who believes Renisdorf is worried about making fans happy and that is why he is making these statements is off his/her rocker.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
azjazz
is this valid and correct information, which you did skip over, and have said everything i post was incorrect. please correct me, and correct the source if i am wrong
thanks
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
The information is correct
if you weren’t so dense, you would see I did not previously respond to this. Partly because it has no relevance to the topic at hand. Yes, the White Sox and Dodgers get a piece of the revenue generated by Camelback Ranch, just as the Cubs will get naming rights and most of the revenue generated by their new ST ballpark.
So what does this have to do with anything that is being discussed?
so it has 100% bearing on the topic
they got public funding (funds raised from the public) and used it, and dont want the Cubs to get the same now.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Reinsdorf is a jerk but he is not a hypocrite.
He does not want his business directly taxed to pay for another businesses venue. He’s more than happy to go repeatedly to the public till but has no interest in his bottom line being affected one iota for someone else’s profit. This attitude is hardly unique in American business these days.
How does it affect his bottom line?
A $1 surcharge on a ST ticket isn’t going to affect his attendance in any material way.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Like I said, even by affecting one iota he feels like someone is
getting one over on him. That someone is getting something free off of his work. I agree that it won’t really have an impact on his business. But I think the idea of sticking a tax on his ticket to pay for someone else’s stadium (especially the Cubs’ stadium) makes him feel like a tax paying sucker. Jerry’s not used to being in that position.
In other words,
Reinsdorf is used to the tax money flowing to him, not away from him.
which is hypocritical of Reinsdorf.
Its ok for him, not for others.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
he is a hypocrite
and yes it is common this day in age for business’ to do that, making all of them hypocrites.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I still disagree on him being a hypocrite.
He’s actually the model of consistency. Tax money coming to him good. Tax money flowing away from him bad. It’ certainly doesn’t make him noble but he’s not inconsistent. If he were to come out of nowhere and blast the same non-sports tourists taxes benefitting another team the way it once benefitted him, that would make him a hypocrite.
Lookie here.
Diamondbacks get federal stimulus money for new complex:
Federal stimulus money will help the Salt River-Pima Maricopa Indian Community build a $100 million spring training complex on its reservation for the Arizona Diamondbacks and Colorado Rockies.
The Salt River tribe is getting $22.6 million from a $1 billion pool the U.S. Treasury Department has from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act for tax-exempt, federally backed bonds dedicated to Native American economic development. The money is going to 58 tribes with the Salt River’s planned use described as a "recreational facility."
OK for the Diamondbacks, Derrick Hall, but not for the Cubs?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
this is where I wish you would remove the blinders
Money is being given to these teams, but they are saying its not fair money is given to the Cubs (breaking this down to a very basic).
I actually agree with a fee on baseball tickets paid by baeball fans to be used for a baseball stadium for a bsaeball team, instead of monies from a sales tax (as you used for an example) that charge people who dont watch baseball, and could care less about the team it is benefitting. For examply, why charge a ten year old kid who is buying a pack of bubble gum a tax for a baseball stadium, when he cant name three teams (i hope this example is acceptable by your terms) instead of charge $1 on a ticket to the game itself.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
and is anythig i said there wrong?
nope, but you feel the need to continue to read with blinders, showing your ignorance to others
how about you go fuck yourself, friend of Al’s or not, I truly could care less
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Actually,
I tired of both of you about 70 posts ago. And really, I find your increasing level of arrogance on a topic that has your opinion in the minority offensive.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 6, 2010 5:57 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
So,
the Salt River-Pima Indians are using federal money that is earmarked for Native American economic development to partly fund a ballpark complex adjacent to the biggest economic asset they own. How is this a problem?
It does benefit the Diamondbacks too, correct?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
In the sense that they get a nice facility
to train in, yes. But the economic benefit is almost entirely to the Indian tribe, since they own the ballpark and the land it sits on. And the money was intended for exactly this purpose. It’s not like they are going out and creating a new tax or surcharge.
Comments are closed on this thread, because...
… people apparently couldn’t behave like grownups.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Feb 6, 2010 8:32 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
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