Hudson vs. Nady... ? what is the rationale ?
Hi. Thanks again for your wisdom.
It looks like Hudson just signed with the Twinkies for one year, $5 million.
Which leads me to ask... why are we blowing money on has-beens when we could get a (really) useful part instead?
I know, I know, I've asked before and was told we have a viable option at 2nd in Jeff Baker. But Hudson would be an excellent candidate to lead off, and this would leave Baker as an option for super utility guy in case of injuries at 1B, 3B, or corner outfield position.
We are paying 3.3 million for a guy who just had shoulder surgery and a career OBP of .330. I am assuming we will retain at least one of Chad Tracy or Kevin Millar who will make at least 1 million.
Why not use (essentially) the same money for Hudson, have a superior utility player in Baker who hasn't been injured, and use Fuld as an OF backup?
I am not sure why there isn't a bigger uproar about the signing of Nady. I thought everyone was sick of signing over 30 year old has beens... ?
For those who mention that Hudson was benched by Torre last year, maybe that's because they were playing him way too much... (?) With Baker to provide a spell or two, I would think he might perform better. Anyways, would seem a better gamble than Nady (who was never that good) and Tracy/Millar.
Thanks for your input.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Let me put this simply....
Hudson lost his job last season to Ronnie Belliard. The only thing he would be the answer to is the question “whose job did Ronnie Belliard take in 2009.”
For the money, I’d rather have Baker and Nady.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
Simple is exactly
what that idea is, Ross.
The Cubs feel they have a good second base solution already, and reportedly Hudson was looking for $8-9 million up until the end, which is at least $3 million more than Nady will get in 2010. At least.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 6, 2010 8:59 PM CST up reply actions
But Hudson signed for $5 million
which is only 1.7 million more than Nady will get.
In addition, we will likely purchase the contract of Millar/Tracy for at least $1 million.
So instead of a very viable candidate at 2B, with Baker as a super sub, we used the same money on a has-been who probably won’t perform much better than an in-system minor leaguer (i.e., Tracy/Millar) and Nady.
I’m not arguing, I’m trying to understand. It doesn’t seem that simple to me.
You are assuming...
… that Jeff Baker = Mark DeRosa in his versatility. This is by no means a proven fact, and Nady is a better hitter than Hudson.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
and Nady is cheaper
unless he meets incentives.
And if he does, he'll have been a productive player.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
and there is a good chance we had a good season as a whole
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Who cares what he signed for??
Teams inquiring about his services were told at the time that the Cubs might have been interested that he needed $9 million dollars a year. That Hudson woke up for his narcissistic dream state and signed for market prices at a later date is moot.
And Baker isn’t a balm. You can’t just put him anywhere you like, and at multiple spots concurrently. Even if the Cubs had signed Hudson, they’d have still been looking for another corner man, especially from the left side. Those minor league signings were to fill out their bench, and provide some insurance should what many think about Mike Fontenot prove to be correct, and would have likely been done regardless of how their offseason might have otherwise developed.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 7, 2010 8:52 AM CST up reply actions
Why do you continue to label Nady as a "has been"?
Just curious.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Feb 7, 2010 8:58 AM CST up reply actions
It is the only way he can makes his point
that the O-dog would have been a better pickup. Without that “fact” nickler has got nothing.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 7, 2010 9:39 AM CST up reply actions
Not really.
Nady just came off of shoulder surgery and is supposed to be backing up Fukudome in RF, where one supposedly needs a good arm, especially in Wrigley.
Orlando Hudson has not been injured and has been a productive everyday player over the past 2 seasons (except at the end of last season).
know who else we signed after surgery?
Ryan Dempster. would you label him the same way Nady is bieng labeled?
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
it did take a while before Dempster was fully recovered
But I don’t think the comparison is that great, anyway.
Orlando Hudson does have a history of injury- he had season-ending injuries in both the 2007 and 2008 seasons, and there were still concerns about his health last year with the Dodgers. Add in the decline in his defensive skills, and you’ve got another player who’s winning Gold Gloves based on reputation.
"....who in good faith and without too much qualification assented to at least a part of the frankly villainous dictum that all is fair in love and war."
-Ambrose Bierce
"Belliard taking over" doesn't paint the whole picture
Hudson slumped big time for 2 months, which nobody knows why. Whether it be injury, age, or just a really unlucky streak, he is still a solid player. I think this is a smart move for the Twins. I think we made the better decision by passing up on him and going for Nady.
"The more i practice, the luckier i seem to get" -Yogi Berra
by ChiCubsFever on Feb 6, 2010 10:37 PM CST up reply actions
So you agree getting Nady was the smarter move.
Good to see you come around.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 7, 2010 9:41 AM CST up reply actions
its just little ol' me but since no one else is here maybe I can ask a question
I liked the Hudson idea….not that I’m in an uproar about Nady….but thinking in the “what will make us better” I’m not sure I’m all the way on board w/ Nady over Hudson or sure why.
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
Who would platoon with Fukudome then?
Please don’t say Fuld.
And as far as your “has been” critique of Nady:
2008 25 HR’s 97 RBI’s .305/.357/.510
Sure there’s the risk of a full recovered ballplayer, but I’d hardly say the guy is a “has been”.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
isnt the idea strong up the middle like bible verse in baseball?
to choose platoon on RF over stronger up the middle is where I’m having trouble. is this so?
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
I'm not sure we'd be stronger up the middle....
Defensively, Hudson remains outstanding on popups and above average to his glove side. He is weaker to his backhand, but again his wrist might not be the only explanation. A second executive says that even before Hudson suffered his injury, his defense was in decline.
"He used to be a difference-maker," the exec says. "Now he’s a tick above average."
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Feb 6, 2010 7:58 PM CST up reply actions
ok, nice read on him...I liked this part tho...
“In that same span, he’s gone first to third on a single 37 times in 84 attempts (he’s stopped at second on all but one of the other occasions). The 44 percent success rate is better than the MLB rate, which ranges from 30 to 33 percent”
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
I believe we were better fit signing Nady
Hudson has been in decline and continues to bounce around while losing starting positions. I beleive he wants more playing time than the Cubs would have been able to promise him as well
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
yeah and as jc said i dont think I'd like him as a lead-off hitter...who did Lou say Fuku and ??
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
more playing time---I remember reading that
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
But, but, but
you are preaching defense here when Hudson is still above average.
Nady is an aging OF who is supposed to sub at RF and just had shoulder surgery!
Aging?
Nady is a year younger than Hudson. He had Tommy John surgery, a year ago, not “just”, and not shoulder surgery.
He may be a little behind in being 100% on Opening Day, but he’ll be fine in a platoon role. And I repeat, he is a better hitter than Hudson.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You. Don't. Know. That.
You have absolutely no idea about the effects of the surgery on his play. While players have been trending toward quicker recovery, the norm on TJ is still 12-18 months, so I think it’s very appropriate to say “just” a year ago, especially as he is ACTIVELY still rehabbing as we speak. And there is little history on the performance of players who have undergone multiple TJs on the same elbow.
Personally, I’d be scared as hell about committing this level of money to a right fielder who may end up throwing like a little girl, and one can only hope that he’ll at least be able to maintain this swing as he works his way back into game shape. You do remember that he basically hasn’t played in a year and a half, yes? Otherwise, this is just another Hendry boondoggle.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 7, 2010 9:00 AM CST up reply actions
12-18 months...
… for a pitcher. Nady isn’t pitching. He has to throw occasionally from right field. It doesn’t affect his hitting. I’m not concerned.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Really?
The elbow has nothing to do with a player’s swing? You’ll have to explain that notion to me later. I’ll be interested to see how those screws feel after the first couple of months of the season in 40 degree weather, and I mean that in all seriousness.
And the recovery time for a surgically repaired ligament is what it is. The reports suggests that he isn’t all that far along in his throwing program, throwing only at 120 feet. So yeah man, it could be a good 12 months before he’s fully recovered, even if the Cubs are willing to play him in the meantime.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 7, 2010 9:43 AM CST up reply actions
Nady himself has said it won't affect his hitting.
I think I’ll believe him.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Al, if I had
a five million dollar deal hanging in the process, I’d have said the same thing. And this is the same Nady who declined surgery initially, and instead tried rehab over doctor’s advice. Maybe this is a case to not completely trust the patient.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 7, 2010 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
people forget we signed Dempster at the same point
post TJS without having played since TJS
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
if by above average
you mean Hudson is about avearge, and a little below average, you are correct. Look at his UZR from FanGraphs
Outside of 2004 and 2005 he has not been anything special
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I think we can go older than that. Did you see Fontenot's UZR?
..—- -— -— -… / -.. ..- … … / ..— … / -…. ..— / ….. -— / ….- …. --.. .-.-.- -— / .—— .—— ..—- / .—— ..—- -.. / …. / …- …— / .-.-.- --. -… -…. / …- .-.-.- --. / ….- .-.-.- …. / …. .—— / --. ….. / .—— .-.-.- …— / .—— .-.-.- ..—- / …. -— .-.-.- …— / ..—- .-.-.- ..—- / -… ..-.- ….- / ..—- -— -— -.. / .. ..- … … / ..— … / --.. ..—- / ….- --. / ….- --. -.. .-.-.- ..—- / .—— -— .—— / .—— ….- …— / .—— / ..—- -… / ..-.- --. --. …. / …- .-.-.- -— / ….- .-.-.- ….- / ….- -.. / .—— .—— …— / -— .-.-.- …. / …- .-.-.- …. / .—- .-.-.- ….- / ….. .-.-.- …. / .—- -.. .-.-.- .—— / ..—- -— -— --. / .. ..- … … / ..— … / -… -— / …. …- / ….. ..—- --. .-.-.- .—— / .—— .—— ..—- / .—— ….- --. / …— / …— -— / .-.-.- --. -.. --. / …— .-.-.- -… / …. .-.-.- ….- / ….. -— / .—— .—— -… / -…. -— .-.-.- …— / .—— .-.-.- …. / -—- .-.-.- …. / .—- .-.-.- -.. / ….. .-.-.- …..
i saved the spreadsheet then flipped it to PDF
but forgot to make a few fixes to make it pretty….now shooosh lol
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
it is a baseball truism
bvut the O-dopg’s play last year calls into question his abilities. It is reasoinable to assume he will not make the team stronger up the middle, whereas Nady does fill a need.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 7, 2010 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
First of all....
why are we having to platoon a guy making $14 million a year?? Many here are recommending Fukudome leadoff!! You are going to platoon your leadoff hitter??
But as a 4th OF I always thought Baker could be a super-sub.
Yes, Fukudome should lead off.
I assume Ryan Theriot will lead off vs. LHP, which is fine.
Again, you’re making a huge assumption about Baker being a “super-sub”. He has never done this before.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Because Fukudome can't hit left handers....to answer your first question.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Feb 7, 2010 8:55 AM CST up reply actions
Ideally you don't platoon the leadoff spot
but the if you do not have a guy who gets on base as well against RHs as LHs, then the next best move is to platoon. Fukudome should be a very good leadoff hitter against RHs, but there is no way he leads off against LHs.Theriot will probably be a decent leadoff man against LHs, so between the two of them, the leadoff spot should be more productive.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 7, 2010 9:48 AM CST up reply actions
He's not.
And speaking of “has-beens”, Hudson might quickly be becoming one of those.
This really isn’t a viable question. The choice wasn’t between Hudson and Nady, it was between Nady and several other choices to platoon with Fukudome. Nady, presuming he is healthy, was probably the best option.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
why don't you think that?
His defense in right is said to be very good. He hits right handed …
Given that Nady will earn a lower base salary, I’m OK with the Cubs’ decision. But if the base salaries were equal, I would probably think differently.
"Is said" to be good?
Gee, I think I’d rather have, you know, someone who’s actually played the position more than 30 times.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Bruce Levine said he plays good defense in the outfield corners
IIRC. More on this below, Al.
When did Bruce Levine ever see Baker play RF?
He has played only three games there since 2007.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The "corners"?
does that include left field where he has started two games (and played eight games total). He must have really been outstanding in those two games for someone to make that comment.
there are other ways to evaluate defense
than experience at the MLB level. I’m just repeating what Levine said.
Sure the minor leagues
Want to guess how many games Baker played in the outfield in the minors?
Hint: Less than 1.
Like I said ...
I’m just repeating what I heard, and I’m not arguing the Nady signing over a Hudson signing.
Actually, that's not true.
He played 120 games in the OF in AAA in 2006.
But that’s it. One year in the minors.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
that's almost a whole minor-league season!
I’d like to see his defensive stats (and don’t have time to look them up).
i hear sean marshall is really good in the outfield too
by jesus christos on Feb 7, 2010 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
never made an error
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Check his minor league defensive #s.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 7, 2010 5:39 PM CST up reply actions
nevermind
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 7, 2010 5:40 PM CST up reply actions
Which pairing would you rather have against LHs?
The O-dog at 2B and Baker in RF, or
Baker at 2B and Nady in RF?
I think the latter is obviously a much stronger pairing.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 7, 2010 9:50 AM CST up reply actions
true.
But that’s only half the equation …
Would you rather have Fukudome and Fontenot against right handers or Fukudome and Hudson.
You won't have Fontenot vs. all RHP.
It won’t be a straight platoon at 2B.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
And here is where you don't consider Lou's love of lineup balance
We’re all going to see more of Mike Fontenot this year than we care to.
If Fontenot can be the 2008 version, we'd be very happy.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
well, obviously, Al
But based on last year — where Fontenot was just awful — what makes you think that’ll happen?
As I said, I’m not arguing that the Cubs made the wrong move with Nady/Hudson. But other than selective-use arguments — that don’t hold much weight given Lou’s love of lineup balance — what makes you think Fontenot will be better?
He doesn’t have a long track record (like Soriano) and isn’t known to have worked his ass off to get in shape (like Soto).
Here I agree with you
I’m not a big Fontenot fan. I’m hoping Baker can become the regular 2nd baseman.
here's the problem
The Cubs have two lefties (not counting Fuld or Hill). Both are serious gambles. I don’t want to see a lot of Mike Fontenot because Kosuke is sucking wind at the plate. I also don’t want the reverse to be true.
I chalk up Fontenot's bad 2009 to two things.
First, having to play nearly every day, rather than being platooned.
Second, playing out of position at 3B much of the time. Playing defense at a position you’re not accustomed to can hurt your hitting.
Put him back at a spot where he excelled — part-time 2B in 2008 — and I think you could get similar production.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
that's just not true, Al
He wasn’t playing every day or out of position for more than two months. If he had bounced back after the All-Star break or had done SOMETHING late in the year (like Marmol) to suggest a resurgence, I wouldn’t be arguing.
Also, I’m still waiting for your response to my comment about the Twins (a smart, smart franchise) signing a washed-up player (your words) to play every day.
Fontenot started 100 games in 2009.
He started 49 games in 2008. I’d say that’s a quantum leap in regular play, wouldn’t you?
Also, he played exclusively 2B in 2008 (except for one brief appearance at SS). He started 37 games at 3B in 2009 — a position he had played only 62 times in the minor leagues, and not since 2007.
I repeat: he was overexposed and playing out of position much of the time. Put him back to the role he had in 2008 and he can be successful.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Oh, and about Hudson?
We’ll see. You’re right, the Twins usually make smart moves. Remains to be seen if this is one of them or not.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well ...
I couldn’t disagree with you more about Hudson being “washed up.” I think you made up your mind on who the Cubs should get and are ginning up your argument.
That said, I think the Cubs made the right moves. AND I hope you’re right about Fontenot.
I don't think the Cubs ...
are in the position or planning to only start Fontenot in 49 games. He wasn’t in a straight platoon in 2008 (IIRC, he wasn’t even with the team on Opening Day) and I’m betting that it will be a straight platoon, at least for a while in 2010. I know some BCBers think otherwise.
And I repeat: Fontenot didn’t improve later in 2009 when he was playing less and not playing third. To me, all of this optimism about Fontenot is just inexplicable.
I'll respectfully disagree with you.
I think they intend to have Baker as the starter, with Fontenot as backup.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If that's true ...
why was Fontenot tendered a contract? Blanco is better defensively at second AND he’s a switch hitter.
Because Fontenot, used as he was in 2008, can hit better than Blanco.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That is a major understatement
Blanco has a .619 lifetime OPS
Fontenot’s is .761, even with the crappy year last year
Actually,
If I could expand on that, I haven’t yet found anyone – media or baseball folk – who’ve said anything other than positive things about this signing.
That said, I’m with you in that I’m willing to give Fontenot the benefit of the doubt on 2008, at least for the moment.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 7, 2010 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
Fontenot already got the benefit of the doubt
It was 2009 — and he didn’t produce.
Well,
by that I meant that when used properly, such as in 2008, that he can still be effective.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 7, 2010 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
Although,
I will add for the record that I would have just as soon the Cubs non-tendered him.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 7, 2010 10:36 AM CST up reply actions
I wish they'd non-tendered him
I hope Fontenot either has a great spring or a godawful one. If he’s great, he’s on the team and, we hope) has renewed confidence. If he’s godawful, he’s gone, Blanco is the backup 2B and Millar or Tracy makes the team.
I just hope Fontenot doesn’t hit like .240 in the spring …
do you think the Cubs will use him properly?
I don’t. They have two lefties who can play regularly, both of whom are risks. If Kosuke sucks, I think Lou will stick with Fontenot longer, and vice versa.
And, again, I’ve heard nothing about Fontenot’s hardcore work this offseason AND I didn’t see him do anything late in the year — when he was being used more selectively — to make me think he’ll improve much.
Well,
again I’m happy to give the Cubs and Fontenot the benefit of the doubt for now. But if I had to guess? He’ll probably see a few too many at-bats, at least to start the season.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 7, 2010 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
I hope the Cubs ...
look at ST as a competition between Fontenot, Millar and Tracy. If Fontenot isn’t starting half or more of the time, I could see Millar and/or Tracy being more valuable.
I agree
Especially in regards to Tracy. Al must have whispered in Jim Hendry’ ear on that one, because it’s too smart a move for him to thought of on his own.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 7, 2010 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
the contracts all three signed ...
are pretty similar. Eating Fontenot’s contract wouldn’t be fun (thanks, Super 2 status!) but it wouldn’t kill the Cubs.
And, hell, maybe he has options left …
Tracy is left handed AND he can play first and third. My guess is the Cubs break camp with him on the bench and Fontenot someplace else.
Actually, I’d say that’s my guess and my hope.
oh, and the Millar and Tracy deals ...
aren’t guaranteed, are they?
fontenot was bad before he switched over to 3b
by jesus christos on Feb 7, 2010 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
and bad after he stopped playing there
and bad after he was in a platoon
and bad after he was in less than a platoon
Have you looked at his month to month performance from 2009?
very fast start and faded down the stretch. Probably explains why he lost his job to Belliard, a journeyman, who, when given his chance, got hot and took the job for keeps.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 7, 2010 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
OPS+ the last five years...
Starting with 2005…
91
102
105
107
109
Rough half of 2009 or not, that’s nowhere near “becoming a has been.” It’s the complete opposite.
It indicates he could be losing it
he certainly did last year in LA. Which O-dog will show up this year is anyone’s guess. Nady was the smarter get.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 8, 2010 12:25 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think you can call Nady a "has been" quite yet.
He was injured last year and missed most of the season. It’ll probably be a while till he fully recovers from TJ surgery, but IMHO, he’s worth rolling the dice on.
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie" -- Tony Montana
"has beens" make great bench players
but not at 5 mil/year
"The more i practice, the luckier i seem to get" -Yogi Berra
by ChiCubsFever on Feb 6, 2010 10:40 PM CST up reply actions
Joe Torre approves this message.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Feb 7, 2010 8:53 AM CST up reply actions
the Minnesota Twins ...
one of the best run organizations in the game, would like to have a word with you.
And I'd reply with, "Carlos Gomez"
The Twins are indeed a great organization – but they don’t get them all right.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 7, 2010 2:18 PM CST up reply actions
He lost his job to Belliard last season
that is nothing to brag about
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 7, 2010 9:51 AM CST up reply actions
Umm...
Belliard put up a 1007 OPS in August and 1022 OPS in September. Hudson SHOULD have lost his job.
You conveniently forgot the other half of the equation
how the O-dog’s numbers faded. That is why a career journeyman like Belliard got the chance to take the job from him.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 7, 2010 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
Take the job from him?
You have no idea what you’re talking about.
Belliard started 10 games at second base as a Dodger last year. Ten. That’s not “taking a job.” At all.
Well, except for those eight postseason games Belliard started.
Hudson started zero games in the playoffs.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Torre was probably just saving his true starter for the World Series
No other way you can look at it.
Who got the post season starts?
Clearly Belliard took the job from the O-dog. To spin it any other way is just being silly.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 8, 2010 12:26 PM CST up reply actions
OT....hey hows the snow situation
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
Let's just say
Good thing Mike Fontenot doesn’t live in DC because his head would be under the snow level. Exaggeration, of course…
Start Sean Marshall!!
sounds like fun
I heard Philly is being hit hard as well, got 29 inches (?) but the good news there is no more snow til Monday
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Uh... no.
I was suggesting Baker be used as a utility OF since he seems to have played corner OF before.
Jeff Baker has played 33 career games in the outfield.
How does that qualify him to be a “utility outfielder”?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
sean marshall could be used as a utility OF as well
by jesus christos on Feb 7, 2010 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
Soriano was at 3B last season for the Cubs also
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
It is obvious
the Cubs like Fontenot, Theriot, and Baker, hence Nady. On this one I agree. I always liked Nady, he will be quite useful, especially against lefties.
Simple, the Cubs needed another OF'er
Millar and Tracy are emergency outfielders at best. People also keep trying to make Baker into DeRosa but there are no indications that he could play a respectable outfield for any period.
Without Nady, the Cubs would have one spare outfielder with Fuld.
I'm sorry, maybe I'm not understanding.
I thought the whole allure to Baker was that he could play multiple positions, including OF, and be a super-sub like DeRosa. So why couldn’t Baker play corner OF? Wouldn’t that be better than a guy who just had shoulder surgery??
That is my point
It is the fans that are making Baker into DeRosa. I don’t think the Cubs are thinking that. Could he play outfield? Possibly but right now there is no guarantee that the Cubs would want him out there for more than a game or two. If Soriano or Fukudome miss a week, I think the Cubs would want a better option hence Nady.
by rlpete on Feb 7, 2010 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Because that would be stretching Baker too thin.
As it is, he’ll see most of his time at second base while backing up third base. Meanwhile, Nady can platoon in RF and backup first base. And Blanco can back up the middle infield. It all makes for a pretty nice balance, IMHO.
the balance is even better ...
if Tracy makes the team.
I could actually close up my computer and not come back till ST, I'm so happy with who we have....
but I wont. :)
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
once the cubs committed to bringing back Fontenot
They simply weren’t going to look for a 2nd baseman. Add in that Hudson really declined late in the year, and that his defense has been average to bad the last couple of years, and I really didn’t see a huge point in pondering him this offseason. If you brought him in and kept Fontenot and Baker, that would’ve made Baker the platoon option at 2nd and RF, and the primary backup at several key spots – 1st, 3rd, LF, and that would’ve stretched him thin.
At the end of the day, the need was in the OF. Nady’s bat – I’m good with that. He was always thought to have a decent-solid bat, and once he started getting regular PT in 2006, his bat really took steps forward. No, I don’t have huge expectations for his bat, but I think it can be solid overall, and that it can be a good platoon complement to Kosuke. Whether or not he has the arm strength for RF, I don’t know. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Sam Fuld get put into RF late in games a bit if Kosuke is taken out (and Byrd/Soriano are still in).
by toonsterwu on Feb 6, 2010 10:31 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Jeff Baker is a viable option?
this is gonna get ugly
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Mike Fontenot is a viable option?
this is already ugly
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 6, 2010 11:27 PM CST up reply actions
I always thought Baker was best suited as a super-sub type.
At least that has been batted around here on multiple occasions.
Not to put you on the spot:
“If you brought him in and kept Fontenot and Baker, that would’ve made Baker the platoon option at 2nd and RF, and the primary backup at several key spots – 1st, 3rd, LF, and that would’ve stretched him thin.”
If he’s the everyday 2B, and the primary backup at 1st, 3rd doesn’t that also stretch him equally thin? I would think it’d be better to be a primary backup at muliple positions than to be the everyday player at one AND the primary backup pretty much everywhere in the IF except SS.
With Chad Tracy and Xavier Nady....
Baker’s no longer the primary back up at 3rd and 1st.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Feb 7, 2010 8:50 AM CST up reply actions
Jeff Baker is good.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 7, 2010 5:42 PM CST up reply actions
Orlando Hudson is very overrated
Hence why he has gone into February without a job secured the last two offseasons. This would also be the same wondrous 2nd baseman who lost his job with the Dodgers to vagabound Ronny Belliard.
You can have Orlando Hudson. His erractive hitting would have compounded the problems of the Cub offense. And his play at 2nd base is not the stuff of Gold Gloves despite claims to the contrary.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
What does "erractive" mean?
Do you mean “erratic”? Or am I misunderstanding?
I am being serious, not trying to be a jerk.
Cubs are taking a band-aid approach to 2nd base in the short-term
Mike Fontenot and Jeff Baker are not looked upon as viable answers at 2nd base. Even Genius Jim Hendry would tell you that with a straight face. 2nd base is the one position on the field where, if you are otherwise strong, you can get away with playing cheaper journeyman types.
I’ll guess the organizational thinking is that Ryan Theriot will eventually compete for playing time at 2nd base. Either that or somebody like a Ryan Flaherty will be a modest option to consider.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
My guess is that this is Theriot's last year as a Cub..
… if they actually go to an arb hearing.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
This is probable Ryan Theriot's last year with the Cubs regardless
Mike Fontenot too. When guys like Theriot become too expensive, then you move to Plan B. Like I said previous I do believe Theriot is smart enough to understand he currently is in the middle of his maximum earning power as a major league ballplayer. Therefore I can’t fault him in the least bit for expecting to get paid given his current job title as starting major league shortstop.
But next year? Theriot is among the volumes of non-distinct middle infielder types looking for a one year contract from somebody. Or in other words he enters the land of Adam Everett, Adam Kennedy, Craig Counsell, etc.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
by BLou on Feb 7, 2010 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd
BLou has done a good job of stating why Theriot and the Cubs are both doing what they’re doing, for good reasons.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 7, 2010 5:44 PM CST up reply actions
And hopefully
Castro will be ready . for the start of 2011 season .. sure would like to see Castro and the end of the year callups , and then next winter the Cubs can tell Theriot to take a hike . Theriot will not be worth anything close to what he recieves in arb .
has been?
I don’t know how being injured for a year makes you a has been before you’ve even come back……….Hudson is more of a has been.
Personally I really like the Nady signing. A one year deal for a player who could potentially be a big bat in the middle of the lineup. If it doesn’t work out its not a big liability like the 3 year 30 mill dollar contracts we’ve seen in past years.
The answer ... you overvalue the O-dog
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
as someone who advocated signing Hudson for months ...
I think you need to consider a couple things, nickler.
1) Hudson is more expensive than Nady in most scenarios. The only way that won’t be true is if Hudson really underperforms, and Nady meets his incentives. If that happens, I don’t think we’ll be complaining.
2) The Cubs really needed a platoon partner with Kosuke AND Soriano injury/underperformance insurance. Nady, at his best, is a better fit at that than Baker.
3) Under your scenario, Baker would be the team’s fourth outfielder. Here’s where I’ll take a leap of faith and argue that the Cubs must not have thought enough of his defense to put him in that spot (or, that was a supporting argument to points one and two).
Xavier Nady is potentially a great signing
Like you say, if he is healthy then…
A. He serves as quality platoon partner to the $13.5 million Japanese import in right field who hits .260 and drives in 50 runs otherwise.
B. He serves as quality insurance should Alfonso Soriano drop off the face of a cliff, which in my opinion is a real scenario to be prepared for.l
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
"The Jeff Baker is clone of Mark DeRosa" argument is insanely stupid
Jeff Baker stands equal chance of being a decent (not great) utility option versus being a turd sent down to Triple A Iowa. How some of you have gotten carried away into thinking that Jeff Baker is Mark DeRosa reincarnate is beyond me.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
Who is stating = ?
Some have said he has the potential to be like Mark DeRosa. That’s not stating = .
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 7, 2010 5:45 PM CST up reply actions
Huh?
Baker is out of options, so he’s not going to Iowa. And, speaking only for myself, he’s analagous to DeRosa only in that he’ll likely be playing second base and backing up third base.
Here is why. This is not something people just made up.
Taken from:
http://chicagocubsonline.com/archives/2010/02/cubsprojectedof.php
“Another player to keep an eye on is Jeff Baker. Most see Baker only in the mix at second base and as a backup to Aramis Ramirez … and he should receive time at both of those positions. Baker will also get reps in the outfield during Spring Training. The Cubs envision him in a super-utility role similar to the one Mark DeRosa filled in 2007 and 2008. "
I'm not saying
this is accurate just explaining why people consider Jeff Baker to be someone who could be useful in a super-sub role, especially since you noted that:
“The Jeff Baker is clone of Mark DeRosa” argument is insanely stupid".
So a random blogger's opinion trumps all of ours?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
blogger, bcb poster
none of us make the line up. this ranks up with moving everyone to 1B and Theriot/Fox to 2B. Fans are talking about what we envision, and think, but none of us have a say in it. Those who keep pegging Baker as DeRosa need to realize Baker is Baker, DeRosa is DeRosa and ST will determine who is what for the 2010 Cubs
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Hey now.
I didn’t say that some random blogger’s opinion trumps yours.
I was just explaining why many thought Baker’s use as a utility man is not unfounded. This sentiment has been brought up on multiple occasions. This does NOT mean that I think this opinion is necessarily better than yours.
weren't you a random blogger at one point, Al?
Or is there a subtlety in your argument that I’m missing?
Well, there was a bit of sarcasm intended there.
However, I believe the point made in that link had been stated by the Cubs as a possibility, months ago, long before Xavier Nady and Marlon Byrd had been acquired. Further, I remember it almost verbatim from one of the beat reporters as it’s written on that site — not even properly attributed.
I think it’s moot now. I will bet anyone here right now that Jeff Baker will play fewer than 10 games in the outfield for the Cubs in 2010.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
oh, you're probably right
Although I hope the Cubs try Baker in the corners during ST, just to see what he can do. What’s the harm, right?
And I didn’t detect the sarcasm. My apologies.
No worries.
Will they play Baker in the OF in ST? My guess is no — and not because they don’t want him there, but because they have a lot of other people to look at in various OF positions, including Millar and Tracy.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
LOL
True, but the Cubs have a TON of actual outfielders to play in those SS games. Baker needs the reps at 2B.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
do they really have a ton of OFers to play?
It’s not like there’s an open spot to be had. I understand that Hoff/Tracy/Millar etc. derby. But other than that …
Well, let's see.
You have Soriano, Fuld, Fukudome, Nady, Byrd, Hoffpauir, Tracy, Millar, Colvin, James Adduci. Further NRI’s have gone to: Matt Camp, Bobby Scales, Bryan LaHair and Brett Jackson.
That’s 14 outfielders, nine of whom have major league outfield experience.
Doesn’t leave a lot of room for Baker.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Given the Nady signing, Baker shouldn't play the OF
2B (primarily), 1B, and 3B is enough for him to work on, in my opinion.
I agree.
Baker is still fairly new to the 2B position. We don’t need him to be a jack of all trades. What we do need is a solid 2B.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 9, 2010 8:04 AM CST up reply actions
If he can handle all three positions (particularly 2B) this year
then I’m fine with him working to refine his skills at other positions for the future. But only then. We just don’t have any major need for him to play OF this season.
back in 2007 ...
Lou tried Theriot in the outfield early in the season. It didn’t work — but it didn’t really hurt anything either.
That’s all I’m advocating here — a game/several innings to see if Baker can play a decent outfield.
Lou did that out of desperation, not design.
There’s no reason to do it this year, with more competent outfielders on the roster/in camp. That wasn’t the case in 2007. As noted above, Baker needs the reps at 2B in ST, not outfield innings just because some think he can be a DeRosa-type “supersub”. We don’t need that type of player.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
desperation?
The Cubs had plenty of outfielder in 2007. Lou was trying to make Theriot into the team’s supersub.
Yes, desperation.
Theriot started ONE game in the outfield. Hardly a “supersub”.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
right -- it didn't work
As I said. But I don’t Lou tried the move out of desperation.
Disagree.
I know Theriot played some OF in spring training in 2007 — he was pretty bad out there, and it was generally acknowledged they wouldn’t do it during the season unless they were desperate.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
that's not my recollection
The Cubs had a slew of outfielders at that point in 2007 — Soriano, JJ, Ward, Murton, Floyd. I don’t think Theriot was used because they were all unavailable.
Here's the truth.
In the first week of April, 2007, Theriot was not yet the starting SS — it was still Cesar Izturis. Theriot did not start any of the first five games of the year. On Opening Day he came in at 2B, then he came in four times as a LF substitute for Cliff Floyd — remember, Soriano was playing CENTER field at the time.
The one and only game Theriot started in the outfield was the sixth game of the year on April 8, 2007. During the game he moved to RF.
That’s the last major league game Ryan Theriot has played in the outfield. Like I said, it wasn’t a plan, and it reeked of desperation, to play Ryan Theriot in the outfield.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Here's why I don't agree ...
I know Soriano was in center at that point. But how could the Cubs have been desperate to fill spots in the OF if they had Jones, Murton, Ward and Floyd — AND DeRosa?
Yes, I realize that DeRo was not being used as an outfielder at that point. But he had more service time in the outfield at that point than Theriot, who had none. If Lou was really desperate, why not put Theriot at second and DeRosa in left?
And don’t just respond to the DeRo argument. Because even if there was a reason that one doesn’t work, the Cubs still had several guys who were regular outfielders.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.
I don’t think the Cubs ever considered Theriot as a “supersub”. They played him in the OF as an experiment. It failed — IIRC, he was awful and note, they didn’t do it again. (I think Murton was in Iowa at the time.)
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Oh, he was really awful
On that, we definitely agree.
I'd like to know what they base
that opinion off of? The Cubs gave EVERY indication at the Cubs Convention that Baker was the starting second baseman. Period.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 7, 2010 4:17 PM CST up reply actions
Thoughts about Felipe Lopez.
Where’s left for him to sign? I can’t think of a team still looking for a 2B.
For my part, I can’t see much difference between the total package of upsides and downsides of Lopez and O-Hud. So, if the Cubs wanted to get a 2B, it made sense to wait and see who was left standing, as Abreu was last year. There’s no reason to mourn the “loss” of Hudson. Lopez is still out there, and if the Cubs offer him a starting job, he should be a bargain.
I’m not saying I think the Cubs are in on Lopez – just thinking out loud about where he goes, and what the Cubs might have “missed” according to the original post.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
Except that Felipe Lopez is bad
There is a reason he is forever looking for employment and being jettisioned by his employers. Like I said before, he is Ronny Cedeno with better public relations. Cubs need an erractic fieldling middle infielder who goes up to the dish hacking like they need a hole in the head.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
We tend to agree on Hudson/Lopez, although not in degree.
I don’t think either are bad, but neither is really good enough for the Cubs to justify spending significant money on.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 7, 2010 9:08 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
But what if Lopez
could be had for a non-significant amount of money.
In other words, how cheap would Lopez have to be for him to be an appropriate option for the Cubs?
If Hudson signed for 5 million, I would think Lopez could potentially be had for half that. I would think that would be a good deal and give us a better possibility for a platoon at 2B than Fontenot.
I wouldn't pay 5 M for him. No way.
Especially with no open 2B jobs in the market right now.
CHONE projects Lopez to hit .273/.344/.381 and Fontenot to hit .260/.329/.397. Their defense is projected to be similar, although I’d bet on Fontenot, given that Lopez’ only good defensive year was last year.
So, why do you like Lopez better than Fontenot?
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
if the money is equal
… I’d take Lopez over Fontenot. Fontenot did nothing last year — after he was no longer playing third and when he was in a platoon after the All-Star break — to make me think he’s set to bounce back.
But the money wouldn’t be equal, and I don’t think Lopez is twice as valuable as Fontenot.
Felipe Lopez in 2007
was worse than Fontenot in 2009. If Lopez could bounce back, so could Fontenot.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 8, 2010 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
well ...
what about Fontenot’s season last year makes you think that he’ll bounce back? I think a lot of fans are looking at his projections without realizing that he didn’t improve once he was platooning and not playing third.
Also, Lopez has a track record that’s MUCH longer than Fontenot’s. That makes me think that Fontenot’s 2008 was the aberration — while Lopez’s aberration was 2007.
What specificallly about Fontenot's 2009...
…makes you so sure he won’t bounce back – if not to 2008 levels at least to somewhere in between? I mean, if I dare dabble in BABIP, his was very low last season – .281 compared with .355 and .330 in 2008 and 2007, respectively. (Maybe someone who’s more familiar with line drive rates, etc. can tell me how far off the mark I am here.)
In any case, I see a guy who plays great defense at second base with a quick, compact swing that can produce surprising sneaky power. Is he a starting player? Probably not. But I could absolutely see him bouncing back to put up decent numbers off the bench in 2010.
the fact that he didn't improve
when his role was lessened.
sample size....
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 8, 2010 1:37 PM CST up reply actions
seems pretty inconsistent
Fontenot’s 2008 (49 games started) is what you’re using as reason to hope for a resurgence. But the second half of 2009 — I’m not sure how many games he started, but I’d guess it’s around 49 — is too small a sample?
twice as many ABs in 2008
as in the sample you cite – plus there’s a decent minor league record.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 8, 2010 5:40 PM CST up reply actions
So if we pinpoint exactly when his role was lessened...
…what kind of sample size are we looking at?
I don't have time to go game-by-game
But I would like to see Fontenot’s numbers from around the time Aramis returned and around the time Baker was acquired.
For the record, I'm not a "Fontenot guy"
But I feel like he could “bounce back” enough to split the difference between ’08 and ’09. So I was intrigued enough to take a look.
Rammy returned on July 6th.
Baker played his first game as a Cub on July 3rd.
So, for consistency, and ease of calculation here are Fonty’s stats from July 1st on (from his game log):
AB 163
H 42
2B 13
3B 1
HR 3
RBI 16
BB 9
K 33
BA .258
OBP .297
SLG .405
OPS .702
(Note: did all the decimal stats by hand… so there could be some error, but they should be close, at worst.)
Hey, his OPS cleared .700!
I’m claiming victory and will await a concession call from elgato’s side.
here's a response ...
And it’s not a concession:
I took a look at Fontenot’s stats month by month. I looked at batting average and not more advanced metrics. I couldn’t find a month-by-month breakdown of OPS.
In the three months when Fontenot didn’t have to play third or hit (much) against lefties, he batted .248. These months were April (before Aramis got hurt) and August and September (after Aramis returned and after Baker and Fox were on the team).
However, that figure (underwhelming as it is) is seriously buoyed by September, Fontenot’s best hitting month of the season, when he hit .310, in just 42 at-bats in 20 games. Compare this with April, when he had 69 at-bats in 21 games, hitting just .232.
IIRC, Fontenot was being used more as a pinch-hitter in September – a role that appeared to suit him (more on that in a moment). In April and August, the two months where Fontenot’s role was pretty much in line with what the Cubs envisioned in the offseason (starter at second against righties), Fontenot hit just .227, in 119 at-bats.
As we all know, Fontenot struggled mightily when he was asked to play third and when he was forced to start against lefties (after Aramis got hurt). Fontenot hit just .213 in May and June in 145 at-bats.
July is the hardest month to take much from. It was Fontenot’s best month outside of September with a .254 average in 71 at-bats. But it’s hard to say when, exactly, his role changed. Aramis returned after the All-Star break, Baker joined the team at the start of the month and Fox was on the team. How much of the improved hitting in July was a result of going back to a more comfortable role?
Without further analyzing July – I don’t have time to go game by game – I think we can draw some clear conclusions about Fontenot:
First, the positive: Fontenot is at his best as a spot starter and pinch hitter. This was his role in 2008 and his role in September 2009.
Now, the not so positive: Fontenot, as the regular starter at second versus right-handed pitchers, doesn’t appear to be up to the job. His average in the two months last year where he had this role was just .227. And, yeah, I know this doesn’t give him credit for July – but I’m not sure half a month would really change the math that much.
So, is Fontenot worth a roster spot as a good pinch-hitter/spot starter and a below average platoons starter? At nearly $1 million a year, and at the possible expense of a more valuable player like Chad Tracy, my vote is a resounding no – especially considering Fontenot’s age (30 in June) and lack of defensive versatility when compared with the Cubs other options.
Yes, I know – they still have to play the games. But my fear is that Fontenot beats out Tracy and others this spring, starts the season in a platoon with Baker and gets too much playing time because Lou loves lineup balance. This is especially worrisome if Kosuke struggles. Fontenot might be kept in the lineup for balance because his struggles aren’t as pronounced as Kosuke’s.
Does this mean I’d rather have signed Hudson than Nady? No – not at the eventual price tags. Does this mean I think the Cubs should sign Felipe Lopez? No – the Cubs should use their limited funds elsewhere.
But I don’t like counting on Mike Fontenot. To me, it’s a bad bet.
slight tweak
I didn’t realize Aramis returned SO early in July. So “half a month” of improved performance isn’t really fair to Fontenot — more like, two-thirds of an improved month.
Man,
I thought I could be a little long winded. I completely agree with the summation though.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 8, 2010 5:30 PM CST up reply actions
I hope it's clear that I was kidding about the concession thing.
Even though I choose to defend Fontenot to a certain extent, I can agree that – if Tracy is healthy and Jeff Baker is for real – he (Tracy) would be a better fit for the roster. Tracy could back up third and first: Making the depth at second base Baker/Blanco. And, assuming Nady is healthy, the Cubs would have pop off the bench from both sides of the plate.
thanks for doing this
See my post below. Love to get your thoughts.
No problem.
I don’t really know what to do with Fontenot.
I completely agree that his best bet is as a spot-starter and PH. I also agree that Lou will probably be inclined to play him a good bit, if he bounces back at all, to balance out the line-up.
I don’t really love a platoon of Fonty and Baker, but I’m not really afraid of it. If the other players perform as they are capable (granted, a sizable “if”), then SS and 2B are our “weak” spots in the line-up In that context, Fonty/Baker doesn’t look as bad… in that there are piles of other teams who have a bigger whole in the line-up (like catcher).
I also fully agree on Fontenot’s lack of versatility being a hindrance to his role as a bench player. So, IMO, he needs to hit enough to start 70 times a year to justify his roster spot.
I don’t see him as competing with Tracy, unless you view Fonty as the primary PH. We know Lou favors the 12 man staff (might start with 11 in April)… and as such, there are five bench spots. Four of those seem set: Hill, Nady, Fuld (presumably as the 5th OF / PR / defensive replacement), Blanco (because someone has to back-up SS… so he has a spot unless there’s a trade or Castro does make the squad). You could send Fuld back to Iowa and use Baker as a 5th OF, but then you have no PR or real defensive replacement.
So that leaves one spot on the bench. That spot has to go to Fontenot, unless you think one of two intertwined things: 1) Baker is good enough to start 120-140 games at 2B and 2) you’re okay with Blanco getting the rest of the starts (meaning you think he’ll hit enough to not be a total liability). IMO, both of those are shaky… so Fontenot has to stay, unless he proves he has to go. In that case, Tracy and Millar (etc.) are really competing against the 12th pitcher for a roster spot.
BTW, ALL of this changes if Castro makes the team… which I am hesitant about (not sure if I’m for or against yet – probably against).
For me, I’m a pessimist by nature, but I seem to be a bit more optimistic on a couple of questionable Cubs. There have been lots of calls to replace Soto and/or Fontenot (among others). The logic seems to be that their 2008 seasons were flukes, with 2009 showing the real them.
Both were admittedly subpar in 2009. On the other hand, do the Cubs really need them to replicate 2008 (obviously would be great if they would) to be successful? What if they each just split the difference between the two seasons? Wouldn’t that make them useful contributors (i.e., at least not a “weakness”)?
So, I guess I would be inclined to go into ST hoping Fontenot can split the difference between his two seasons and start 60+ games at 2B. If that doesn’t work, IMO the Cubs should look to the market for a short-term LH fix.
What about Lopez' 2007
made you think he could bounce back? Lopez had bad years frm 2001-2004 at the beginning of his career, before a really nice 2005, but then nothing special until 2009. Lopez has some potential, I agree, but I’m not convinced that potentiial is worth paying more for than we’re paying for Fontenot’s potential.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 8, 2010 1:39 PM CST up reply actions
Oh, I agree that we shouldn't pay MORE for Lopez
But if the price tags were equal, I’d take Lopez — who, unlike Fontenot, can play other positions without losing it at the plate.
oh, and for the record ...
I never really thought about Lopez’s ability to bounce back after the 2007 season.
lol
neither did I.
I’d take a look at Lopez at a certain cost; but Boras is his agent; I don’t think we get to that cost.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 8, 2010 5:41 PM CST up reply actions
totally, totally agree
I realize that I’m only advocating for Lopez in a hypothetical scenario.
I really can't see anything happening
with the Cubs, under any circumstance. The closest thing to that would be him taking a NRI, and fighting a Spring Training cage match with Fontenot and Tracy, but honestly I think Tracy is going to have to be AWFUL for the Cubs to not want to keep him somehow. So, again, I just don’t see it.
The Cubs really should have found a left-handed second baseman to balance out their lineup, but at this point, what’s done is done.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 8, 2010 12:33 PM CST up reply actions
that's very true
The Cubs have so many moving pieces right now. I don’t think they’d spend $2 million (or whatever Lopez wants in a contract) for another one.
Except that they think they have a LH 2B in Fontenot -
I know Fontenot was frustrating last year, but he projects as well as any other LH 2B option that was out there.
Chad Tracy had an almost identical line to Fontenot last season, so it’s kind of odd to be glad to give one guy a chance but not the other. I think if Fontenot had been a D’back last season, and we didn’t have the bad taste in our mouths, we’d be glad to be giving him a chance to earn more playing time.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 8, 2010 1:05 PM CST up reply actions
that's an interesting point ...
but I again point to Fontenot’s lack of MLB success, other than 2008. Tracy, meanwhile, has several years of decent MLB service.
I don't find it
all that odd. I don’t like Fontenot’s defense, I don’t find him as versatile as others here do, and I don’t trust his ability to have success if you give him 400-500 ABs over the course of the season. So again, I would have preferred that the Cubs looked for a LH upgrade, but I won’t quibble. What’s done is done.
As for Tracy, I think he brings significantly more upside, and a longer body of work, so I’m a bit higher on him right now than Fontenot.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 8, 2010 1:23 PM CST up reply actions
FWIW, I don't think too many people find Fontenot versatile.
I think he proved last season he can play third base in a pinch, but his high defensive value is solely as a second baseman.
Right
I don’t buy Fontenot as versatile at all. I think his defense is above average. I also don’t think we’re looking at him getting 500 PAs. I expect he’ll land back in the 300-350 range he had when successful in 2008.
I agree with Damen than Tracy has a ton more upside (between the two LH 3B that came to Chicago, I like ours better), and I agree with the idea that a LH 2B is nice in theory (have you heard me talk about Maicer Izturis, for example), but in practice, I’m not sure how many options were better than Fontenot when you factor in price.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 8, 2010 1:43 PM CST up reply actions
Right.
I don’t think the Cubs would or should look at Fontenot as a 500 PA guy (though, at this time last season, I was willing to give him that shot). But I don’t fault them for giving him another shot in a bench role.
Chances are decent that Mike Fontenot spends the majority of 2010 at Iowa
Bottom line, he isn’t versatile and not particularly good at anything. It’s hard to have a bit player who can only play 2nd base sucking up a roster spot.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
you make him sound like a mini Hoff
not saying I disagree, but that is the same problem Hoff has, one position and not really that good above AAA ball
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Mike Fontenot has a professional approach
Micah doesn’t.
Mike has had extended success; Micah has struggled the longer he’s been up.
Also, Z shouldn’t carry Micah on his shoulder pre-game.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 8, 2010 7:39 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not really arguing ...
but what makes you think Fontenot has a professional approach, and Micah doesn’t?
I would argue that one decent stretch (fewer than 400 at-bats in 2008) is not an ironclad example of “extended success.”
was just about to ask that as well
I see on here so often the phrase “small sample” but then what i believe would be a small sample is being stated as “extended success”
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I'll let DGU respond to the question about approach...
…but I’d reiterate what I said above about Fontenot having a much quicker, more compact swing than Micah Hoffpauir.
true
that i agree with 100%
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
Sure.
With Micah – you watch that big swing wave at pitches way out of the zone and you know he’s going to have to make adjustments – adjustments I don’t really see him making.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 9, 2010 2:02 PM CST up reply actions
That could be.
If Nady starts the season on the DL, it will give Tracy and Fontenot a chance to fight it out for playing time.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Feb 8, 2010 7:40 PM CST up reply actions
Well,
I thank you for being the first person that I’ve seen around here that at least acknowledges that we might not see Nady for awhile.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 8, 2010 7:48 PM CST up reply actions
Mike Fontenot has to clear waivers before he can be assigned to Iowa.
Further, he has been outrighted before, so he could decline the assignment and become a free agent.
(Hat tip: AZ Phil @ Cub Reporter.)
The likelihood of Mike Fontenot playing at Iowa this year — on anything other than a rehab assignment — is about equal to the chance of me being named King of Chicago.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2010 7:49 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Hail King Al?
Harumph!
That man didn’t harumph!
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher

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