White Sox And Diamondbacks Complain About Cubs Spring Training Deal. Here's The Truth.
by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2010 8:00 AM CST
in News
493 comments
Photo courtesy Mesa Convention and Visitors Bureau
Within the last few days, we've been treated to comments from White Sox chairman Jerry Reinsdorf and Diamondbacks president Derrick Hall, grumbling about the deal that the Cubs and the city of Mesa have made for a new spring training complex:
Reinsdorf told the Phoenix Business Journal the Sox were opposed to a plan to institute a surcharge on all Cactus League tickets to help fund the Cubs' proposed $84 million spring training complex in Mesa.
Remember, Reinsdorf threatened to move his team to Florida if he didn't get the state of Illinois to build him a new stadium in Chicago -- which the team occupies virtually rent-free -- and further, says Mesa Mayor Scott Smith:
"We're not affecting the current revenue streams" for other Cactus League teams, Smith said. He leveled a broadside at Reinsdorf, whose team practiced for years in Tucson Electric Park before leaving last year to join the Los Angeles Dodgers in a new sports authority-funded complex in the Valley.
"Is this the same Jerry Reinsdorf that skipped out on Pima County taxpayers who had spent tens of millions of dollars to provide him with a taxpayer-funded stadium, to come to Glendale, where Maricopa County taxpayers provided him a Taj Mahal spring-training facility?" Smith said.
Meanwhile, Derrick Hall says "all 13 other Cactus League teams back him" and the Cubs shouldn't use public money:
Diamondbacks President Derrick Hall says that a new field for the Cubs should be funded through private funds, the same way the new stadiums for the Diamondbacks and Colorado Rockies was funded.
Right, Derrick, except for the $30 million of federal stimulus money being used by the Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community to help build your new spring training facility. That's public money, isn't it, Derrick? These funds are characterized as a loan, but it's still taxpayer dollars and the complex likely doesn't get built without it. Further, since this complex is located on tribal land, the Diamondbacks (and Rockies) would likely be exempt from any ticket surcharge -- which, in any case, is likely to be less than $1 (one estimate has it at 75 cents -- hardly a deal-breaker for anyone coming to a Cactus League game).
This East Valley Tribune article reminds us that the truth is that nothing is set in stone yet; there may be a surcharge placed on Cactus League tickets, but if so, there's some justification -- according to one study, Cubs fans account for 22% of Cactus League attendance -- and if not, the East Valley Tribune link goes on to say:As officials announced Friday they will introduce legislation on Monday to provide part of the funding, they acknowledged they haven’t settled on tax rates or certain funding formulas.
"Exactly what those will be is yet to be determined," said House Majority Leader John McComish, R-Ahwatukee Foothills.
McComish will sponsor the bill, which he said will be written with several blank lines where the key financial details will later be filled in. Lawmakers still need to figure out how much money will come from a car-rental tax and from a ticket surcharge on Cactus League games.
Because of resistance from some that people across Maricopa County would pay for a Mesa facility, some lawmakers want the taxes to raise additional money for improvements to other spring training complexes in the Valley. Lawmakers are talking with tourism industry and baseball officials to see what they would or would not support before they set tax rates in the bill, he said.
Under the current tax structure to pay for spring training facilities, all Cactus League teams benefit -- including the White Sox, who used a portion of this tax to help finance Camelback Ranch. There is currently $12 million in the fund earmarked for improvements to HoHoKam Park, which may not occur until and unless another team moves into the facility once it is vacated by the Cubs (there are already exploratory talks underway with several teams, including the Twins). The money raised by the additional rental car taxes and ticket surcharges would go to this fund, not exclusively to the Cubs.
The bottom line here, then, is that Reinsdorf and Hall are just blustering and posturing -- Reinsdorf, apparently, taking the lead from his manager and general manager, who will stop at nothing to diss the Cubs, and Hall, likely taking the lead from his fanbase, who are still, apparently, unforgiving of Cubs fans for filling their park during the 2007 NLDS (geez, wasn't winning the series enough revenge?). Here's a take from our SBN Diamondbacks site which is, unfortunately, filled with comments on the old you-haven't-won-in-a-century thing that, you know, we've never heard less than 1,375,359,311 times before, as well as some misinformation. Jim, you're a good guy and I've enjoyed meeting you and the lovely Mrs. Snakepit, but that post -- well, read this one for the truth.
Finally, when this topic was posted in a FanShot on Saturday, the discussion devolved into pointless namecalling, so much so that I had to close comments. Please keep the discussion civil on this issue (and everything else here, for that matter). Thanks.
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A view from a local
Since Al was brave enough to come over and explain the Cubs position, politely and respectfully, in the D-backs’ lair, I thought I’d return the courtesy and try to explain the situation, as it appears to an Arizona local.
Couple of bits of background. It’s important to realize just how badly the state’s economy has been hammered by the recession, with real-estate and tourism, two of the twin planks of income, both taking one hell of a beating. The state’s budget deficit is over $2 billion this year, which has led to massive cuts in jobs and services – as I noted in the piece linked above, we can’t even keep our state parks open, yet a legislator wants to impose surcharges to fund a new training facility for a pro sports team? This may help explain why so many Arizonans don’t like the idea.
Personally, I am fundamentally and philosophically opposed to public money being used for any pro sports facilities. So my opposition is not anti-Cubs: I’d say that the way in which $253 million of the Chase Field costs were funded – a sales tax increase across the entire county, without even the electorate getting a chance to vote on it – bordered on the criminally corrupt. And I do accept that there is a pot of money, raised by room and car rental taxes, which is used for spring-training parks, etc. in Arizona.
Except, that pot is basically empty. The appropriate thing to do, given this, is either a) find alternative sources of funding (like the D-backs/Rockies), or b) wait for the pot to replenish itself. The Cubs seem unwilling to do either, demanding a shiny new park to replace the one built in much more primitive and barbaric days of long ago e.g. 1997. How does that date compare to the other Cactus League stadia? Here are the ones older than that [excluding Hi Corbett, built all the way back in 1937!]
Phoenix Muni – 1964
Tempe Diable – 1968
Scottsdale Stadium – 1992
Peoria Sports Complex – 1994
Now, obviously, some of these have been renovated since, but the Cubs comprehensively rejected renovation plans for Hohokam late last year. I’ve yet to hear a convincing explanation of why a facility, which was presumably fully Cubs-approved barely a decade ago, is now apparently completely unsalvageable.
Moving from the need onto the proposed funding mechanism. It’s good to hear the mechanism has not been set in stone, though it seems to be fiscally irresponsible to legislate a plan to issue bonds without having an agreed mechanism in place to raise funding for them. Given the backlash, I can see them needing to find alternative methods, but as a ballpark figure (hohoho!), $54m over twenty years works out at $2 added on to every ticket sold in the Cactus League over that time. That ignores any car-rental hike, but also ignores any interest. Given the average Cactus League ticket is less than twenty bucks – and can be as low as $5 – that’s a significant hike. Would you Cubs fans be happy with a 10-15% surcharge on Wrigley tickets, to fund another team’s facility?
I would disagree with Al’s statement that “The money raised by the additional rental car taxes and ticket surcharges would go to this fund, not exclusively to the Cubs.” According to this report, “The bill seeks to raise $59 million over 20 years to pay off bonds that would be issued by the Arizona Sports and Tourism Authority to build the Cubs complex.” I’m no lawyer, and nor do I play one on TV, but what do you think the Cubs would do if their new stadium failed to be built, due to a more pressing need being found? Y’know, like replacing one of the parks that’s more than three times as old as Hohokam?
I also take issue with Al’s efforts to draw a parallel with the funding for the AZ/CO facility. Further down the same story he linked, it says “Instead of accepting the bonding authority, the tribe has decided to take advantage of new rules for tax-exempt financing that came as part of the stimulus act, a spokesman said. Those new rules will let the tribe apply for up to $30 million through a tax-exempt loan program with a bank.” So, seems they actually declined the federal dollars Al claims they are taking, with funding coming from a private company instead. They’ll also be paying it all back, with interest – not heard a peep of suggestion that the Cubs will be doing this.
So, “read this one for the truth”? Seems that’s definitely not the case. I look forward to sharing a beer or two more with Al in spring training – but think it’s probably best if this topic is avoided! :-)
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 9:10 AM CST reply actions 5 recs
Thanks for coming by and making a reasonable post.
However, I’m going to quibble with some of your conclusions.
First, you are correct that HoHoKam Park is in decent shape and only 13 years old. The issue isn’t the park — it’s the fact that practice facilities are below standard and are located 3/4 of a mile down the road. That’s a logistical problem that teams that have newer complexes (Glendale, Surprise, for example) don’t have. The Cubs, as you know, drive the Cactus League engine. They should have a top-notch facility.
The articles you quote, I think, aren’t quite written write. The report you quote says “to build the Cubs complex”, but my understanding is that this money is not exclusively for that purpose — that it would continue to be levied after the Cubs complex is built, and the money would be used to upgrade all Cactus League facilities. Further, regardless of your math, I have been told by sources in a position to know that the surcharge would be at most one dollar per ticket, and likely less. Also, you’re being a little disingenuous by citing a percentage of a ticket price rather than a dollar amount. Sure, Cactus League prices are low — and that being the case, is another 75 cents on a (say) $8 lawn ticket at HoHoKam Park really going to keep people away? Doubt it. (Incidentally, who’s still selling Cactus League tickets for $5? I didn’t find any such prices this spring.)
About the financing for the AZ/CO facility, sure, it’s a loan, but it does come from federal dollars, and without it, the facility would not have been built.
The final point is, again, that the Cubs drive the Cactus League engine. If it costs $59 million, or $84 million, or whatever the final figure winds up being in public money — that will, I think, be repaid over and over for the 25-30 years the Cubs are committed to staying in the Valley for spring training.
Look forward to meeting up with you again this spring, Jim.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Lawn seats at TEP
The thing I don’t get is, if the 3/4 mile distance from the practice facilities is such a massive issue, why was the facility built – and, as I said, presumably approved by the Cubs – that way in 1997? Where were the practice grounds before that?
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
TEP, obviously, is done as a ST venue after this year.
Being opposed to public funding for stadiums is a reasonable position to have; however, given the source of the funding, it is likely to be paid in large part by people who are actually using the facilities — so I’d think you’d have less of an issue with that.
At the time HoHoKam was reconstructed — on the same site as the previous park, which had been built in 1978 — ST complexes of the size and scale of the current ones were rare. The only one in existence at the time was in Peoria. The Cubs, I suppose, didn’t seem to think that the practice facilities were an issue at the time. Now they do. You can disagree with that if you want, but it’s not an unreasonable thing for management to change its mind on something like this over a 13-year period, especially with new ownership coming in, and a place like Camelback Ranch opening a year ago.
Which, of course, was partly paid for with public money — so I think Jerry Reinsdorf ought to just keep his mouth shut on an issue like this, particularly, as the mayor of Mesa said, because he ran out on a deal paid for in part by the taxpayers of Pima County, so he could take advantage of a deal paid for, in part, by the taxpayers of Maricopa County.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Certainly
Reinsdorf is skating on much thinner ice than Hall, with regard to the whole pot/kettle situation. Probably better for my argument if he’d stay quiet!
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
It's typical of White Sox management....
… they seem to take every opportunity they can to rip on the Cubs, whether justified or not, and it trickles down from ownership to GM to field management.
Best, I think, if they just minded their own business and tended to that “Taj Mahal” that they had partly built with taxpayer dollars.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
One more note.
I feel compelled to point out that each of the “oldest” spring training parks you mention in your first comment — Phoenix Muni, Tempe Diablo, and Scottsdale Stadium — have all had major upgrades since they were first built, including land acquisition in Scottsdale to build practice facilities for the Giants adjacent to Scottsdale Stadium, paid for — wait for it — with public money.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Al are you implying...
That Jerry “Snake Oil” Reinsdorf might not be the best source of info?
I’m shocked… shocked I tell you… Tongue planted firmly in cheek
- Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
- Germans?
- Forget it, he's rolling.
uhho...I wonder how our resident Sox fan will take that
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
And also
it’s a loan, but it does come from federal dollars, and without it, the facility would not have been built.
I’m not sure how a private loan from a bank counts as federal dollars. By this reasoning, your mortgage would also be “federal dollars” because you get a tax break on the fees – who knew this was such a socialist country? :-) And worst case scenario, without those incentives, the facility would just have been built somewhere else. That location was only one of the proposals submitted to the team, I believe not all of them on reservation land e.g. Casa Grande.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
I thought the Casa Grande was also a tribal deal...
… correct me if I’m incorrect, but I thought the Cubs also looked at that possibility before deciding on Mesa.
In any case, perhaps the Diamondbacks have more of a reason to bitch than the White Sox do, but in the end, having the Cubs continue to be in the Cactus League will benefit all the teams that are there.
I don’t think you can disagree with that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't disagree with the presence of the Cubs in Arizona being beneficial
But I see absolutely zero need to keep them in Mesa. As the D-backs showed, even in the current financial climate, there are sources of private financing available across the state. There seems to have been not even an effort by the Cubs to look into that possibility, which could have given them the state of the art facilities they crave, kept the Cubs fans (and their dollars) in Arizona, and not needed a single cent in taxes or surcharges.
From what I can tell, the Casa Grande proposal was city-based, not tribal. “On Feb. 2, the city council there voted unanimously to put a referendum before voters May 19 asking for an approval of 0.9 percent sales tax to build a stadium that would attract the two teams.” Now, of course, that would still be public funding, but at least those affected are those in the immediate area, most likely to benefit, not everyone in the state. I’d have no complaints if the surcharge was only on Hohokam tickets.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
Actually, I think the Cubs DID look into those possibilities.
The reason they’re staying in Mesa, I believe, is that the mayor of Mesa and the council there realized the economic benefits to Mesa, particularly from the Wrigleyville West development that is going to accompany the ST complex.
Again, the surcharge is likely to be minimal, no more than $1 and probably less.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Let's say...
The surcharge is .75 and that the lawn tickets went up by that amount. That’s a $5.75.
If a portion of the fans don’t come to the games cause of that minimal surcharge I highly doubt they would be buying souveniers, food or anything else… and at that point they might wanna stay home and pick up some extra shifts at the Golden Arches Supper Club…
- Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
- Germans?
- Forget it, he's rolling.
But, remember, the $5 tickets are likely a thing of the past after this year.
HoHoKam lawn tickets are $8. Other teams charge as much as $13 for their lawn tickets.
Point is, I doubt a 75-cent surcharge is going to keep that many people away.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The point
Is really the principle of the thing, not whether it’s $1 or $2. Why not apply the surcharge only to Hohokam tickets? What benefit do I, as an attendee at a D-backs/Rockies game (be it in TEP or the new park) get from a new Cubs park?
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
Obviously, applying it only to HoHoKam tickets...
… doesn’t raise enough money.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Doing a bit of math on an envelope
If it’s 75 cents across the whole league, then $2.50 per ticket should do it, if it’s also applied to Cubs’ road games as well [which I’d not object to]. Seems more reasonable than surcharging everyone.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
Now, then you're talking about a very large increase.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I have been thinking about this
if you spend hundreds of dollars to fly to Arizona, and hundreds more on a hotel and meals while you are here, it is true that the cost of a ST ticket is a drop in the bucket.
I know from experience with ticket surcharges, the VAST majority of ticket buyers aren’t even aware that they are paying it. If they think about it at all, they think it is just normal inflation.
It’s the same thing, to an extent, with the tourist taxes. 17.5% and up extra on a rental car bill seems exorbitant to me, but it is softened somewhat by the fact that it is cheaper to rent a car here than almost anyplace else in the country (except FL). I’m sure even with the extra tax, you can rent the same car cheaper here than you can in Chicago, for instance. So, most people don’t notice.
With hotel rooms, it is the opposite. Hotel rooms are so expensive here during the winter/spring, that people just don’t notice the surcharge. If you are paying $200 a night for a hotel room, a couple of extra bucks gets lost pretty quickly.
And, the reality is that most of the hotels and rental cars are being paid for by business travels and convention attendees who are on company expense accounts, so that makes it even less of an issue.
Don't know about that rental car expense.
When I have rented cars at PHX airport, the taxes/fees/surcharges come to almost 30% of the base rate. I don’t have a recent rental car bill, but there are taxes on the taxes. It’s really ridiculous.
Not to mention that the rental car facility is almost in Nevada.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Jimmy M. might be onto something?
Check me but I believe the Cubs’ home ticket prices are up to 40% less than comparable tickets sold at Dodger home games. Jimmy passes the “reasonable test” by suggesting the new surcharges could be applied to Cub away games as well home games. I’m not wealthy but an extra $5.00 charge per ticket wouldn’t give me a moments pause. Truth be told I bought a two tickets to each of 4x Cub Spring Training games on Stubhub and paid twice face value on all of ‘em. (Yes, I’m either a huge fan or dumbass, possibly both?)
Anyway, given the choice I’d prefer to avoid the ‘slippery slope’ and let Cubs’ fans finance our own stadium.
I like that with such a surcharge
you are charging baseball fans for the baseball stadium, not charging anyone and everyone for it.
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I have a particular loathing
For when neighboring cities fight with each other over commercial developments, offering tax dollars as what are basically bribes, to try and lure facilities which would be built anyway, to “their” site of the border. See the whole Citinorth fiasco, where Phoenix handed over almost $100m in sales tax revenue, in exchange for 200 car-parking spaces.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
The Arizona Supreme Court
has weighed in on this, and they have a problem with it, too.
The bottom line is that deals like City North are pretty much a thing of the past. There is also a chance that the ruling may impact projects like Waveyard, Gaylord Resorts/Mesa and gasp the new Cubs stadium.
The City of Mesa, in their efforts to boost their local tax revenues may be left up the creek without a paddle.
It's my understanding..
the AZ court ruling basically states any new public financing must have a proven ROI at least equal to the amount appropriated? If so, I think the Cubs proposal will pass that threshhold.
75 cents
for a family of four seeing 3 games is $9. I’m pretty mad if my $9 is going to improve another team.
A family of four seeing three games...
… let’s say, at HoHoKam, with lawn tickets this year at $8 each, totals $96. An extra $9 isn’t going to break them
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's not my point
It’s an extra $9 that exists only to support a competing team. You wouldn’t put up with this if the city of Chicago levied a tax on Wrigley tickets to pay to upgrade the Cell, would you?
I suppose I wouldn't have a choice if I wanted to go to the games.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
but you could choose to call it what it is
unfair
by TC Cubby on Feb 8, 2010 11:01 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
This comment.....
should be painted green.
by timeforachange2009 on Feb 8, 2010 11:05 AM CST up reply actions
How about if the city of Chicago wanted to put a tax on ticket sold at the Cell
To upgrade Wrigley Field? We’d never hear the end of it from DrCrawdad.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
But weren't taxes used to build and upgrade the Cell?
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
by N Oakley on Feb 8, 2010 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
When you buy tickets to a Cubs road game,
Where does the money go?
So let’s say you buy tickets to Miller Park in Milwaukee. Does the money go to the Milwaukee Brewers, or do the Brewers and Cubs split revenue from the ticket sales? I do know the Brewers have higher ticket prices for games in Milwaukee against the Cubs.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
The visiting team does get a share of the ticket revenue.
I can’t remember the % of the split.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Feb 8, 2010 11:18 AM CST up reply actions
Linking that which cannot be linked
First, the state budget situation has nothing to do with this. If you want to make that parallel, explain what happens when you take the economic impact of the Cubs out of the state and move it to Florida. It only gets worse.
Second, the pool is not just for the Cubs, it’s for all teams. Link all you want, the bill sponsor has said so.
Loan or not, it’s taxpayer funds the tribe is taking advantage of and using. The Dbacks already have two taxpayer funded stadiums which is why they went private, not out of the goodness of their hearts. Also, what about the road improvements Scottsdale now has to make because of the stadium?
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
1) The state budget was included to explain why Arizona residents are opposed to tax increases to fund the park. Our legislators won’t increase taxes to fund our schools, yet are seen as willing to do so for pro sports training facilities.
2) Sorry for providing sources for my data. :-) As noted elsewhere, if the money is available to all, there are parks three times the age of Hohokam, surely in more pressing need of replacement. Are the Cubs willing to wait their turn, since these funds are apparently “for all teams”?
3) I guess you also missed the part in the piece [which, I admit, has a very misleading headline] where it says the tribe declined the use of the offered federal funds and is taking out a private loan instead.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
I know this has nothing to do with this post.
I just didn’t want to make my own fanpost about this. Does anybody have any idea when reg. season tickets will go on sale? It is usually at the end of Feb. isn’t it?
United we stand and united we'll fall......down on our knees when we win it all!
February 19.
When there’s more info, I’ll post it, but I assume it will be similar to recent years.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The four complexes mentioned
are all bigger and better than HoHoKam, and have been renovated more recently. Their minor league training facilities are right there with the major leaguers. Of all the facilities I’ve seen in ten years of going to spring training, HoHoKam is the most primitive, and there’s no room to expand.
Incorrect
on all counts.
Hohokam is larger than any of the four mentioned.
Phoenix Muni is further away from the practice fields than Fitch is from Hohokam.
Scottsdale Stadium added one practice field and 1/2 half field east of the Stadium last year, but the other four practice fields (which is where the minor leaguers work out) is still at Indian School Park, which is at least as far as Fitch is from Hohokam.
How are you counting the size,
the number the ST stadium seats or the total facility?
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Feb 8, 2010 11:19 AM CST up reply actions
Do we really need to rehash this again...?
Yesterdays post turned into a snipefest…
- Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
- Germans?
- Forget it, he's rolling.
That's why I posted it again.
There’s more information, and I wanted to see if we could have a more reasonable discussion.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Ehhh...just move to Florida already...
…I just can’t agree with Reinsdorf crying about public money as long as Jim Thompson Stadium sits on the South Side.
And, as I mentioned above...
… Reinsdorf abandoned a taxpayer-funded ST facility in Tucson to move to a taxpayer-funded ST facility in Glendale.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think the main thing
that keeps getting obfuscated in these posts is the fact that the issue with the Mesa plan has nothing to do with whether public money is used or not.
Surprise, Goodyear, Camelback Ranch were all primarily funded thru the ATSA, utilizing the existing mechanism that was set up specifically for the purpose of building/upgrading Cactus League facilities. Each one of these newer ball parks was built, at least in part, for teams relocating from the Grapefruit League. And the creation of the ATSA was approved by Arizona voters.
When the D’Backs and Rockies decided that remaining in Tucson was no longer practical, and there was no money for a new facility in Maricopa County and no Grapefruit League team involved, they got creative with a joint venture with the Salt River/Pima Indians.
The Mesa/Cubs deal is a whole different animal. Not only are they talking about further burdening the local tourist industry (at the risk, as Jim correctly points out, of “killing the goose that laid the golden egg”), but also asking fans of other Cactus League teams to chip in to benefit the Cubs as well.
The counter-point that it is justified by the fact that the “Cubs are the engine that drives the Cactus League” is hyperbole at best, and not really a good argument in any event. As I have tried to point out, there is a fairness issue here, and the expectation that the Cubs are to be treated differently than other teams is understandably being met with resistance.
I remain confused by your position.
You seem to suddenly be against the funding of the new park or are their more details you did not know about two weeks ago when you were a big supporter of both using those funds and of the large amounts of revenue generated by Cub fans.http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2010/1/25/1269828/mesa-city-council-approves-cubs#29545087
( there are several posts in the thread but check out the green one)?
I also recall you stating that you believed the Cubs moving to Florida was a done deal and they were toying with AZ and recently you wrote that it was the Cubs just using Florida to make AZ give them what they wanted.
You are entitled to your opinion, I am just not sure which one it is.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 8, 2010 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You need to realize
I am a resident of Mesa. Keeping the Cubs in Mesa is good for the city, so yes, I am in favor of that. Especially if we can get others to pay for it, because the financial situation in Mesa is bad and they cannot afford it.
However, I can certainly understand why the others who would wind up paying for it would object. If I were a part of that group, I would object as well.
Then there is the matter of the Cubs getting treated differently than everyone else. I don’t like that one bit, and never will.
And yes, the more we find out, almost on a daily basis, about how much this is going to cost, how it is going to be paid for, the worse it gets.
And the bottom line is that the only reason this large expenditure is necessary is that the Cubs are experiencing envy over the newer ST facilities that other teams have gotten…and as I pointed out, the ones the ATSA has funded all involved teams that were imported from Florida. Not catering to teams that are already here and who think they deserve to have a new stadium ever decade or so.
My opinion is consistent. The only thing that has really changed is that I think Mesa should call the Cubs bluff…tell them they will renovate Hohokam and it that isn’t good enough…have fun in Naples. My guess is that in a few years they will want to come back to AZ, just like the Indians did.
And finally, if the Cubs MUST have a new facility, they should talk to the Gila River Indian tribe, who can afford it. They are about the only ones who can right now, and that includes Naples, FL.
by azjazzman on Feb 8, 2010 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Excellent point
the only reason this large expenditure is necessary is that the Cubs are experiencing envy over the newer ST facilities that other teams have gotten…and as I pointed out, the ones the ATSA has funded all involved teams that were imported from Florida. Not catering to teams that are already here and who think they deserve to have a new stadium ever decade or so.
The other new parks which have been funded would have a positive impact on Arizona, bringing new revenue to the area. This new facility will not, as far as I can see, do so. Even all the restaurants, etc. at “Wrigleyville West” will, at best, suck trade away from existing restaurants.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
The Wrigleyville West deal
does have the potential of benefiting Mesa, as there is the potential that visitors will spend money in Mesa that is now being spent in Scottsdale/Tempe/Etc.
That is why Doggie Stalker is somewhat confused by how I feel about this. As a resident of Mesa, I think it is great that the Cubs get a new complex and other people pay for it.
But, I don’t think they really need a new stadium, don’t like the fact that the Cubs are getting special treatment and I certainly understand why the rest of the Cactus League is objecting.
I think the Wrigleyville West development...
… will bring money to Mesa that isn’t there now. Many Cubs fans who come to the Valley only go to the game and stay/eat/party in Scottsdale, because there’s more to do there.
Bring things to do to Mesa, and people will stay there.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It is this attitude
that has repeatedly suckered people into paying for stadiums all over the country with public money. The fact is that where stadiums seem to have had a major impact, it’s when they have been built in areas that were already ripe for development.
I don’t know why you insist on repeating these arguments when there is ample research out there that would explain how bad of an idea public financing of stadiums is.
This is obviously an issue you care about and I assume you want to be as informed as possible. I’d love to see you read a book or two by Andrew Zimbalist and write a review for this site and then revisit the Mesa stadium issue with some actual economic knowledge to either back up your existing argument or to, as is much more likely, explain why you were wrong.
I have read Zimbalist's books.
Nevertheless, I believe this project will be beneficial to Mesa and the Valley, and it includes more than just a stadium. Perhaps you would like to inform yourself about this project more fully before you blast it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I also question
Zimbalist’s whole premise and the way he manipulates data, which is just as egregious as the data manipulation by the supporters of these stadium projects. The truth, I am certain, lies somewhere in-between.
As someone who has lived in Arizona most of my life, I don’t know how anyone could credibly argue that Chase Field and US Airways Arena did not have a major positive impact on downtown Phoenix. We all saw it happen. If those facilities weren’t there, downtown would be dead, just like it was for 25 years prior.
And the way UoP Stadium and Jobing.com Arena transformed what had been cotton fields in Glendale. Was that area ripe for development? Questionable. But, even if you concede that, it certainly would have been more power discount retail shopping centers of the kind that dominates commercial development in all parts of Phoenix. It would have added little new and not drawn people from all over the valley, as the stadiums do now.
by azjazzman on Feb 8, 2010 12:05 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd.
And another reason why the new Cubs complex will be beneficial to Mesa — just as the Cardinals stadium would have been, if Mesa voters hadn’t rejected it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The difference being
The new Cardinals stadium had a positive economic impact regardless of location [you’re getting 10-15,000 more attendees per game than at Sun Devil Stadium]. The new Cubs stadium… Hard to see it as very “beneficial” to Mesa, over the current one.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
The benefit
is that it keeps the Cubs in Mesa vs Naples, FL.
You seem to discount the possibility of the Cubs relocation, but I believe it was not only real, but it very nearly came to pass.
I disagree.
I think it was all trying to get a better deal out of Mesa, which they got. The Florida people never even had a concrete proposal, and their ideas for financing were much more tenuous than the Mesa proposal.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Credible argument regarding impact on downtown
It’s actually not that hard at all. The 1990s saw a level of development in urban cores that was, if not unprecedented, the most dramatic in about a century. Downtown areas in cities across the country experienced massive growth regardless of whether a stadium was built there or not.
Now, does that mean the stadiums have no impact? Absolutely not. But the theory that the stadiums were the cause of the growth is one that I’ve never seen a serious economist put forth. Have you?
As for your charge against Zimbalist, I’m curious about your claims regarding data manipulation. What is that based on?
It wasn't so much a growth in downtown in Phoenix
it turned it from what for 25 years had been a ghost town after 5PM on weekdays and weekends to a fairly vibrant area with foot traffic, night life, etc. You really had to see it to appreciate the change.
The financial models used by Zimbalist (and others I have read) use all kinds of assumptions that are not always valid. You can’t use a model that fits Minneapolis and use it to evaluate Phoenix. The two places are so very different. They always compare Phoenix to Denver, Dallas and Portland, OR and those four cities could not be any more dissimilar.
LMAO
How arrogant of you to assume you have a better understanding of this project than me. You don’t know have a clue what I know.
If you have actually read and understood Zimbalist’s books, why don’t you try refuting his arguments regarding public financing with something more than conclusory statements about what you think the impact of the development is going to be on the local economy.
As you said...
“How arrogant of you to assume you have a better understanding of this project than me. You don’t know have a clue what I know.”
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'm sympathetic to the idea that public financing....
is not a money-maker and generally a bad idea. But it’s my impression that many of the studies of the issue are looking an economic benefit comparison between a)public financing and b)private financing. (I.e. they assume that someone is going to pay to build there.) They don’t really analyze the third option, which is c)no financing because the sports team elects to move elsewhere. Particularly in areas that don’t have much else going for them, option C can be the worst of all options.
To take a non-sports example, when Boeing operations moved from Seattle to Chicago, the negative economic impact of their moving was likely larger than if Seattle had elected to create a tax-incentive rich environment to induce Boeing to stay (even if the principle of corporate welfare is troubling). I believe Seattle chose not to, and they suffered because of it.
I’m bothered by uber wealthy sports teams holding tax-payers over a barrel and wish that it didn’t happen. But while it’s ideologically satisfying to refuse to pay a penny of tribute to the Barbary pirates, sometimes it’s more economically rational just to buy them off lest they sink your whole economic foundation.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Feb 8, 2010 3:06 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I guess that depends if you think the threat
To move to Florida was real or not. Al says, and I tend to agree, that it was not a real option. I think the Indians were the last team to leave AZ, in 1993. Since then it has been all one-way traffic.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
That is historically accurate
But, as everybody keeps saying, the Cubs are a different kettle of fish. Don’t know if you read any of the articles from Naples, but they are definitely serious and partly it is because the Cactus League has now got their attention now. They are determined to get back at AZ and how better to accomplish that then by stealing the jewel of the Cactus League.
When the news hit about the objections to the ticket surcharge, the Naples paper not only picked it up immediately, but also added the comment that Naples may not be out of the running for the Cubs after all.
The Naples people postured real well about being serious.
However, they had no plan, nor did they have any way of financing.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes
but then, neither does Mesa. Well, they have a plan, but it has a lot of problems from what I can see.
Problems that are not insurmountable.
Mesa, at least, has a MOU with the Cubs. The Naples people weren’t anywhere close to getting one of those.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
In which case
It should be funded purely by Mesa. Not the governing authority, which is supposed (I thought) to fund projects that will benefit Arizona, like ones which attract new teams and income – not spend $84 million in order to shift revenue from one county to the next one.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
County -> City
It’s all Maricopa County, of course.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 10:54 AM CST up reply actions
I understand your opposition to all public funding of these projects,
but it is probably more common these days for cities and states to give tax breaks, issue bonds, invest money etc. to companies JUST TO STAY WHERE THEY ARE. If the Cubs did in fact move to Florida, there would be a huge loss of revenue. The issue is that loss greater or less than the money the the city/county/state will use to get the Cubs to stay ? As I pointed out in a previous thread , the bulk of my money is spent in Scottsdale and I am sure Cub fan money gets spread around the area.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 8, 2010 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
In the end, it will be far more than what is spent.
The expenditure for the complex is a one-time expenditure.
The revenue comes in for the next 25-30 years.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
A one time expenditure?
Mesa paid to have Hohokam built 12 years ago thinking it was a one time expenditure. The truth is, it was only last year that Mesa paid off the bonds issued to pay for Hohokam.
That is another problem I have with this whole keeping up with the Jones’ deal. It is inevitable that somewhere down the line someone will built a newer, nicer complex. How do we know in 12 years the Cubs won’t threaten to move to FL again?
Well, for one thing...
… they’re going to have a 25-year agreement. Unlike Jerry Reinsdorf, I expect the Cubs will hold to that deal.
As you note, the bonds are now paid off and Mesa is likely to get another team to inhabit the complex. Sounds to me like win-win for Mesa.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Feb 8, 2010 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Another team?
But the facilities at Hohokam are barbarically primitive, aren’t they? Ah, the Twins… It probably would be an upgrade on the Metrodome… :-)
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 11:18 AM CST up reply actions
LOL
It would definitely be an upgrade over the ST facilities the Twins have in Florida.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Mayor Smith
claims Mesa has talked to other teams about moving to Hohokam.
I don’t doubt their have been talks. Whether there is interest is another matter.
That's confirmed from the info I have.
Multiple teams have been contacted. One that I know of is the Twins.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Very, very unlikely Jazz
If my math is accurate the Cubs are investing $36M into this project and they own design & developmental control over “Wrigleyville West.” Common sense suggests any 3rd parties investing their capital into a hotel, restaurant, etc. would have contractual language prohibiting the Cubs from pulling “a Reinsdorf.”
Once the Cubs brand takes root in East Mesa they ain’t going anywhere. Well, at least for 25-years which is about my expiration date so I won’t care anymore..
I would really like to see
how that $36M breaks down. The only real financial commitment the Cubs are making is to buy the land – and they will no doubt get the sweetheart deal of the century on that. Then, they lease the land that the ballpark and practice fields are on back to the city, and the rest of it they sell off to developers – no doubt for much more than they paid for it.
I betcha anything the $36M is based on some outrageously inflated estimate of what the land would be worth if it was sold to some other developer with deep pockets.
But, yes, your point is a good one – one Wrigleyville West is a reality, the Cubs would be pretty dug in in Mesa.
You still don't get it
nobody, as far as I know, is disputing the economic benefit of the Cubs training in Mesa. And Jim is right, all things being equal, Mesa should pay for a new facility.
But, that isn’t going to happen, because Mesa is broke.
I said this 9 months ago and was mocked for it.
The deal that makes sense is the Gila River deal. They have money.
Mesa is not funding this by themselves.
As you well know.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That is what I said
Mesa can’t fund it. They probably should, but they can’t, and that is the crux of the problem. They have to find somebody else with deep pockets, and the deep pockets are pretty tapped out these days.
Sorry but to go from gushing over what a good deal it is
to attacking it and encouraging the Cubs to walk is a major change. At this point it seems that the funding mechanism is not really finalized, but you had no problem with taxes etc being used for previous stadiums. If the big issue is the ticket surcharge, I am sure they will find something else to raise taxes on.
Yes the Cubs must have a new facility, especially one with better, closer training facility.
I have enjoyed my last few years of ST trips to AZ, but I guess my money could be better spent on more “real” games (I have no interest in going to Florida). I probably shouldn’t be spending my limited funds in
AZ anyway.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 8, 2010 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
I can see that point
imagine if the Yankees or Red Sox were open to moving to AZ, and to get them there the local authorities made you pay extra for your Cubs/Brewers ST game. Not fair at all, at least not without a master plan (that’s for you, BLou) making sure that all teams had equal access to that fund.
Based on my understanding...
… the other teams WILL have access to this fund. Equal? No, probably not, but as noted, the Cubs do drive the Cactus League engine.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think Jim
refuted that in his post.
If the Cubs do wind up relocating to FL (which I still think is a possibility), the Cactus League will survive just fine, thank you.
You say refuted.
My sources say that’s incorrect.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Jim provided a direct quote for support
What we do know, from news reports, is that the original plan earmarked the money specifically to retire the bonds that would be issued to build the Cubs complex.
We also know that the sponsor of the bill in the state legislature is still negotiating the details of the bill he plans to introduce and that nothing is set in stone.
That is what we know. If you have special knowledge of the negotiations, please share.
Unfortunately, I cannot reveal my source, however...
… the information I have I consider trustworthy. If I get permission to post where I got it, I’ll do so.
Look, I admit this is somewhat of a sweetheart deal for the Cubs. Given the fact that they do bring in a tremendous amount of money to the Cactus League and Arizona, even in uncertain economic times, I believe this will wind up being beneficial to the league and the Valley.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
As mentioned above
Why Mesa in particular? Why not a privately-funded location elsewhere in the valley? Why raise $84m in taxes and surcharges to keep the status-quo statewide?
Me, I’d have called the Cubs bluff. If they think 3/4 of a mile is too far to travel, any threats to move to Florida are clearly empty ones.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The other reason this is bogus
is because there are already concerns that the ticket surcharge and additional tourist tax will not be sufficient to cover the costs of the new Cubs stadium (other revenue sources are being considered) so there won’t be anything there for other teams to access.
You have a good point
Because as I have said, a team relocating from Florida is a different scenario than a team that is already here that simply is envious that other teams have better facilities. Especially a team that plays in a ballpark that is approaching 100 years old.
Purpose of ATSA
The money is there to make the Cactus League strong enough to bring teams from Florida. You left out the White Sox getting a brand new stadium to move from….Tucson.
What’s a bigger burden to the industry? 100,000+ less people coming to your state every year, or a handful because they don’t want to pay an extra $25 for their trip?
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 12:59 PM CST up reply actions
And as I mentioned before
that taxpayer funded ST facility in Glendale also was built to draw the Dodgers from Florida, and more fans attended games there last year than attended games at Hohokam. And the Dodgers in their first year became the #2 draw in the Cactus League.
If it weren’t for the Dodgers, the White Sox will still be training in Tucson.
Fuzzy math
Cubs make up 22% of the attendance (that’s just home attendance) and are solidly in first place with 203K. Dodgers were actually third with 136K. The White Sox were distant with 91K. SO, 227,000 combined attendance with 11 more games. That’s a joke. Take out the Cubs games at Sox and Dodgers and you are close to even!
Cubs are the cornerstone of the Cactus League.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
Clarification.
The Dodgers were third in total Cactus League attendance in 2009, but second in average attendance (they had fewer games, because they played some games in China).
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
REALLY fuzzy math
First of all, the Cubs only played two games in Glendale, and surely you are not suggesting that all the people at those games were Cubs fans.
And, as I have said previously, the 11 extra games is exactly the point. That is why the ST facilities that house two teams are so much more economically viable. You get all those extra home dates, which translates to more fannies i the seats, more hotel rooms, more meals, etc etc.
Glad you posted on this Al
When I saw Reinsdorf pissing and moaning about this I thought you know as I always say when it comes to the Sux, it’s always about the Cubs even it when it has nothing to do with them. Riensdorf is the bigggest hyprocrite of all, I guess he’s not familiar with the term you shouldn’t throw stones if you live in a glass house. As for the Arizona D-Bags I don’t consider them to be a real team anyhow, especially if they were created after 1969. So who cares what they think.
Someday we'll go all the way.
by Cubbinstrongsince86 on Feb 8, 2010 9:48 AM CST reply actions
Yeah, I had a problem with that comment, too.
I can dislike the D’backs because they beat the Cubs in the NLDS in 2007. But they are, in fact, a real team.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't dislike them for that
They won fair and square. I don’t like their arcade of a ballpark, but they are a legit MLB team.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 8, 2010 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
I agree that the 1998 expansion was kind of premature.
And both teams should have gone into the AL instead of the Brewers moving. In fact, I even agree that the 1969 alignment of 12 teams a league was probably the best alignment baseball has ever had.
But the Diamondbacks won a friggin World Series a few years ago. So I dare say they’re definitely a real major league team.
Yeah, I was going to say
someone alert the Yankees that they lost the World Series twice in the last 10 years to fake teams.
"Only a mediocre person is always at his best." ~W. Somerset Maugham
Prime time for Al
I should be noted that Al did use a Prime Number in this post – 1,375,359,311.
Random chance? Or my next set of Lottery numbers?
Random chance.
But if you want to play them in the lottery, be my guest.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Can I just point out
That this must be the most awesomely pointless site of all time?
This website provides entire small prime numbers list. You can browse all small prime numbers(small than 10,000,000,000) here. There’s totally 455042511 prime numbers.Key in a number to check it’s a prime number or not
Browse prime numbers bigger than this number
You can also send the prime number list in plain text format to your own email box by provide the number range and your email box below.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
Wow, I can get prime numbers emailed to me?
Sign me up!
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I love the response you get
Yes, It’s a prime number
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 8, 2010 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
Are their bronze, silver, gold and platinum numbers too?
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
Now you've done it
Wrigley Field seats are all renumbered to each be individual Prime Numbers.
“I’m in seat 1375509349 and you’re right next to me in seat 1375509383.”
"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 8, 2010 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
I wonder if that website has Mersenne Primes in it.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
Mersenne Primes
How can I use that to calculate Ryan Theriot defense? ;)
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 8, 2010 10:03 AM CST up reply actions
You'd get an infinitesimal number.
Mersenne Primes have hundreds of thousands of digits in the number, but are still prime numbers.
The largest prime number on record has 12 million digits. No joke.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
What on earth would posses someone to find it?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 8, 2010 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
Madaness.
What did you expect?
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
Madness*
Typo there.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 10:15 AM CST up reply actions
Sometimes Numbers just strike me
I don’t know why, but I saw that number and wondered if it was a prime number.
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 8, 2010 10:17 AM CST up reply actions
No, I didn't mean you
I meant the person that found the prime number with 12,000,000 digits.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 8, 2010 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
Oh, that' a job
There’s some guy or gal with a federal grant working away at this stuff.
But if we took that federal grant money away, we could build the Cubs new ST stadium.
Bam! Problem Solved!
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 8, 2010 10:36 AM CST up reply actions
Prime numbers are very important for cyrptography
Various open key systems depend on prime numbers and the difficulty to factor (break a number down to it’s primes) large numbers. This makes the “frequency” of which numbers are prime very interesting, and a major reason for “hunting” for “new” ones.
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
by eths on Feb 8, 2010 11:31 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Infinitesimal number.
Some people here would use that for Theriot’s defense. I’m not one of them.
Fun with numbers. Thanks for the education.
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 8, 2010 10:13 AM CST up reply actions
Until this comment here,
The total number of comments I had made here at BCB was 7907 … a prime number.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 10:20 AM CST up reply actions
And that above comment gave me 8951 comments in total on SB Nation sites.
8951 is also a prime number.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
That BCB comment total was 7097.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
So you're one and one
8951 = Yes, It’s a prime number
7097 = Sorry, It’s not a prime number
I like the sorry here. like my feelings might have been hurt.
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 8, 2010 10:34 AM CST up reply actions
I entered the wrong number.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
So true.
Diamondbacks President Derrick Hall says that a new field for the Cubs should be funded through private funds, the same way the new stadiums for the Diamondbacks and Colorado Rockies was funded.
Right, Derrick, except for the $30 million of federal stimulus money being used by the Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community to help build your new spring training facility. That’s public money, isn’t it, Derrick? These funds are characterized as a loan, but it’s still taxpayer dollars and the complex likely doesn’t get built without it.
So true. I guess it’s only good if it benefits you, right?
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 10:10 AM CST reply actions
See my comment at the start of the responses
The tribe have declined the federal funding and are taking out a private loan instead.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
That comment was so long,
I didn’t actually see it all.
Mea culpa.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
Still my tax money
And how was that loan made possible??? Yup, the good hardworking American Taxpayer.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 1:09 PM CST up reply actions
This may be over simplifying but
I think in the long term this will help AZ. I know the economy sucks and everyone is hurting right now but making the Cubs and their fans more comfortable will cement our presence in AZ (despite the fact we’ve already commited to staying). Not only that but other teams that don’t have facilities in AZ might look over from their humid homes in FL and say “well AZ worked with the Cubs maybe they’ll work with us”.
Also, I think Jim’s point about HoHoKam being good enough in ‘97 but not now is way off. Al responded pretty well in saying that the Cubs are obviously trying to go in a different direction (as usually happens with new mgmt) and we should be allowed to pursue whatever options are available to make our team more competitive. Finally, what state isn’t currently operating at a loss? I think Texas might be the only one, not sure though.
"I hate to sound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
The Giants, Angels and A's
all train in stadiums that are older than Hohokam and determined that stadium renovations and upgraded practice facilites were a viable way to go for now and the immediate future. Part of the appeal is the fact that they do not have to share the facility with another team, as is the case with all the other newer complexes.
The Cubs are the only team that seems to feel that they need a brand new $100+ M complex that they do not have to share and that renovation/expansion of a facility that is only 12 years old does not suit them.
Just wondering
Are you a Cubs fan or a Dbacks fan? Your profile doesn’t list a favorite team…
by LT on Feb 8, 2010 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
Not sure why it matters
but I am a baseball fan, who follows the D’Backs more closely than any other team.
Question
How many teams use their ST facilities year round to train? The three teams that you mentioned are warm (or at least not cold) cities which could use their main facilities for year round training, whereas the Cubs cannot. Just curious if that is part of the equation.
All of them
use the facilities year round now. There is the instructional league, the fall league, extended spring training, rehab, and I’m sure other things.
Reinsdorf...
…has always had a chip on his shoulder against the Cubs and he always will.
Reinsdorf is a very shrewd and cunning business man, and he is also a closet ego maniac. He puts forth a humble appearance, but he surrounds himself with people that stroke his ego at every turn.
The thing that always bothered me about Reinsdorf is he thinks he is smarter than everybody else, and people like that always bug the shit out of me.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Feb 8, 2010 10:15 AM CST reply actions 11 recs
Greened.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 10:16 AM CST up reply actions
Glad to see my word is catching on. :)
Green’ed.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
Closet egomaniac ?????
That is one big closet. The man who drove Jordon from Chicago for his ego. No closet is that big.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 8, 2010 11:02 AM CST up reply actions
Let's just say...
…he tries to keep it in the closet, but it does bust out every once in a while.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
it is a race between Reinsdork's ego and waistline
as to which grows faster. The man has no class and his baseball team reflects this attitude.
"...to the home of the brave, the land of the free, and the dooooooooormat of the National League." -Steve Goodman
Jerry Reinsdorf drove Michael Jordan from Chicago? I'd love to hear the rationale for this hyperbole.
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 8, 2010 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
He drove Phil Jackson out knowing Jordon would likely leave too.
He believed that he, and not Jordon, Jackson etc where what made the Bulls winners . He and his buddy Krauss decided they did not nead Jackson or Jordon and they would just hire a college coach to show the world who really ran the Bulls.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 8, 2010 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
this is not a problem for Chicagoans to worry about
we have enough dirty politics here, so I won’t worry about Arizona’s dirty politics. As for the teams and Arizona people that oppose the deal, they need to fight it out through their legislative process. I’m a huge Cubs fan, but I don’t find this subject interesting at all. I will save my energy for the next Fuld vs. Hoffpaur debate:)
As a resident of Rockford
I remember having a stadium on the west side of town that had a Cubs A franchise until they demanded a free stadium on the order of one that was built a year earlier by the Dodgers from a community that didn’t have the money. So one more piece of the economy of the west side of Rockford went away, to be replaced by a shiny private ballpark for a Frontier League team closer to Belvidere, contributing a little more to the blight west of the river.
So screw them all. Thank the gods at least we have the Blackhawks franchise for a few more years.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
Well,
Personally I’m going to applaud Al for showing up to Spring Training in peak, in-season form with this piece. Nicely done.
It's the Cubs' job
to get the best facilities they can.
it’s the City of Mesa’s job to figure out how to pay for it.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Feb 8, 2010 10:56 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
and apparently...
it’s the taxpayers of Arizona that don’t get any say-so in the matter. But they’re just the little people who don’t know any better so their friendly local/state government will obviously do whatever is best for them.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 11:05 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually, there will be a public vote in November.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's some consolation then.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 11:07 AM CST up reply actions
Yes, but it will be a Mesa only election.
SWL has a good point. This should be a general Maricopa County vote, since this effects everyone in the County.
And the only reason there is a Mesa election is because they passed a law a few years ago saying there has to be a vote on stuff like this that is over $1.5M.
The tax created to pay for Chase Field never was voted on.
In Mesa only
As far as I can see.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
Yes
and as I said, that is only because it is law.
If history teaches us anything, it;s that the politicians would ram this thru without a vote if they could.
BTW...
… wanted to thank everyone for keeping this discussion on topic, being nice to each other, and making cogent points.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yeah, I was afraid
This would turn into a repeat of the previous Reinsdorf thread.
Thanks for closing comments on that one.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
At the end of the day...
…doesn’t the problem lie with your politicians, and not our franchise? I hope I’m not oversimplifying things, but it seems to me that the issues here come from the unresolved questions of financing this deal, all of which are being driven by Mesa’s local government. If the Cubs are looking to modernize their venues beyond what’s feasible at the current location and the people of Mesa feel this goes beyond anything they can reasonably support with public funds, then it would have been the government’s duty to say, “we’re sorry you feel this way. Best of luck to you.”
Obviously...
… the Mesa City Council feels it’s beneficial, as they voted unanimously to approve this plan.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes, but since when has any government agency ever done that?
How do you think Arizona’s $2billion deficit happened?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
So, based on that assumption...
… nobody should approach a government because they’re inherently irresponsible? Sounds like we have bigger problems than ST facilities on our hands. ;-)
Yes, the larger problem is that elected officials are almost never held accountable for fiscal idiocy.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
Political commentary aside...
… the Cubs still need to partner with the local government of their ST locations, given the substantial impact of the move/stay. Whoever the people of Mesa/AZ put in place are the people you have to deal with.
A Partnership insinuates each side contributing to an endeavor.
What exactly are the Cubs offering besides their sparking personality?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
The revenues that will go to pay back the massive amount of money plus interest....
Look, I get that the Cubs staying for 20+ years will eventually be a net gain to the economy for Mesa, but the current financial climate in AZ, and the US for that matter, is so dire right now that it seems a little bit much to expect a municipality (citizens) to pony up ALL THE FREAKING $ up front at this time.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 11:42 AM CST up reply actions
Oh, for sure.
One thing I’m wondering is why this needs to be done now, of all times. I’m far from well-versed on the subject, but it’s hard to imagine that now is a good time to do an $50-$90MM overhaul of our ST facilities, let alone to have it come out of public funds (no matter who’s funding it, they’re all freaking broke). But I leave that to more informed persons to argue.
On the contrary
I think you have gotten to the heart of the matter. This is EXACTLY why this is messy. If the Cubs could accept some renovations at Hohokam/Fitch for now, in a few years a new complex would likely be a lot easier to get done.
The timing is because the lease they have with Mesa is up in 2012 and they can opt out. But, there is no reason why they couldn’t extend for a couple of years, with the understanding that when the economy is better, they will be taken care of.
It's a bit of both
Certainly, the politicians are being their usual self-serving selves [I must admit to looking up the bio of the guy introducing the legislation, to see if he came from Chicago!]. But I’d feel a lot kinder towards the Cubs if they’d made a good deal more obvious effort to seek additional sources rather than tax funding, or accepted the proposal to renovate Hohokam, and said “When there’s money in the pot again, we’d like a new park too.” Or even chipped in a significant chunk of the costs of building.
When the Diamondbacks announced their plans to move, Derrick Hall made a specific point of saying, as I recall, that they would not be seeking public funding from the state. That was a very sensible PR move, given the timing was dead in the middle of the financial meltdown. Nationally, things may have calmed down since, but I’m not sure if the Cubs appreciate just how bad the economy in Arizona still is.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
I'm sure they do.
The new owners have a substantial background in investment, and the state of Illinois itself is $12B in the red. Granted, I don’t know these people beyond what the media has passed on to us, but I’d have to think that they wouldn’t try to propose anything that would serve to be a net loss for the locals. Just think about having ST in a very hostile environment for the next 25-30 years. That’s no good for anyone. It’s a lot of speculation, but I just have to think that the Cubs leadership want the Chicago Cubs, their fans, their affiliates, and the communities they impact to succeed.
I don't think the D-Backs situation and the Cubs is the same.
The Cubs have much more leverage in a negotation since they can make a credible threat to move to Florida ST. The D-Backs don’t really have that option.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Feb 8, 2010 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
Jim
Did you happen to read the recent piece in the East Valley Tribune? You should.
The guy introducing the legislation is quoted as saying he is not a baseball fan and could care less about baseball, he is approaching this strictly as an economic development issue.
That may or may not be totally honest, but it does put an interesting spin on this.
That may be the problem
Approached purely from an economic development perspective, there could be a real fear of the Cubs bolting for Florida, resulting in a net loss to the state. But it’s only when the baseball side is factored in, that it becomes clear a move is a slim chance at worst, and the bill becomes ludicrous as a result of this.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 11:46 AM CST up reply actions
Hard to say
how real the threat to move was, but as Al likes to say, I have a “source” and clearly Mayor Smith thought it was real. And he met with Cubs officials multiple times.
I think the desire to move was genuine. However, I also think, if the Cubs did move to FL, no matter what kind of a facility they wound up with, the would quickly discover they had it pretty good in the ’ol Cactus League.
I don't think the Cubs are stupid
They know there’s a lot of good reasons that the traffic has all been one-way from Florida to Arizona, and will continue to be in 2010, with the arrival of the Reds.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
Well, the Cubs
trained in AZ when nearly everyone else was in FL, so they have a history of swimming against the ride. I think if Mesa had played hard ball on a new stadium they very well may have lost the Cubs to Naples.
Your probably right...
…and this whole issue really comes down to what is right for business and who has the leverage.
The reality is, the Cubs have significant leverage, because a boatload of people go down to watch ST. They also have some leverage over the other clubs, because they help put asses in their stadiums when they go there to play. Like it or not, that is reality and it all comes down to what is best for business.
In 1972, Bobby Hull was being courted by the WHA to join their new league. Eventually, they offered him $1 million bucks up front (quite a bit of dough back then) to make the jump. At the end of the day, the Winnipeg Jets only came up with a portion of the $1million, as the other WHA teams pitched in to lure him, because they knew he would put asses in the seats and they would benefit.
In my mind, the extent of the Cubs following, makes them similar to what Bobby Hull was to the WHA.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Yeah
My interest in the Cubs and Spring Training goes back a long ways. When I was a kid I used to hawk cokes at Cubs games at the OLD Scottsdale Stadium in the late 1960s. I remember helping Cubs fans load up the trunks of their cars with cases of Coors to take back to Chicago back when you couldn’t buy Coors east of the Mississippi!
So, I have had a lot of exposure and experience with Cubs fans in the spring.
Anyway, my observations are this – Cubs fans from Chicago like coming out to Arizona in the spring and the ST games themselves are just the excuse. They like being out here in the warm weather and mingling with other Cubs fans at the hotels, at restaurants, and at Hohokam. It is a big social gathering.
I liken it to the experience they had in New Orleans this weekend. All the hotels in NO were booked full this weekend, by people who couldn’t get Super Bowl tickets, but just wanted to hang out in the City to party in case the Saints won.
It is more social and recreational than a burning desire to attend a specific game.
I remember a few years ago at a game at Hohokam encountering a group of little old ladies from somewhere down state in Illinois. There was about 50 of them, and they have been coming to AZ for many years. They stay in Scottsdale the entire month of March and have season tickets to all the games at Hohokam. They have a buffet lunch area set up at the games and have special T-shirts printed up to wear to the games.
This is their big vacation trip every year.
They hardly ever go to games at Wrigley, because it is too far for them and they are mostly elderly. So, they attend all the ST games at Hohokam and watch all the regular season games on TV. But, they are as rabid and as knowledgeable as any Cubs fans you will meet. I remember hearing one of the little old ladies discussing how they thought Kerry Wood’s release point had changed as he was coming back from an arm injury.
To me, this group of little old ladies is what Cubs fans coming to ST in AZ is all about, and I sincerely hope that the people making the decisions on changes in Cubs ST venues keep these people in mind.
And, a useful point.
Presuming the “Wrigleyville West” complex is built, some groups like this — and there are plenty more where that came from — will stay in Mesa, rather than Scottsdale, thus bringing in more money to Mesa.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
most politicians are judged by the pork and revenues that they deliver
to their community. this is why we always see hold-outs that turn good ideas into pork-filled waste.
does anyone think any politician decides how to vote for altruistic reasons? “the greater good” only extends as far as the politician’s voting district/area
"...to the home of the brave, the land of the free, and the dooooooooormat of the National League." -Steve Goodman
So we can count on your vote?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 8, 2010 1:58 PM CST up reply actions
A problem not localized to AZ, I assure you.
I wonder if there’s any people in the world who don’t feel handcuffed by their government.
that's an issue
between the tax-payers of Arizona and their government. The Cubs have nothing to do with that side of things.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Feb 8, 2010 1:47 PM CST up reply actions
Like Defense Contractors and Haliburton.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 1:55 PM CST up reply actions
I really don't think
they’re analogous, and I’m not going to get baited into a political discussion with you.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Feb 8, 2010 3:06 PM CST up reply actions
No politics...just raw ideas.
but it’s borderline hilarious that you don’t think a private corp. (Cubs) wanting to make a deal with a public entity (City of Mesa) that results in the use of tax dollars is not analogous to another private corp. (Boeing) wanting to make a deal with a public entity (Federal Government) that results in the use of tax dollars.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 3:20 PM CST up reply actions
Now we're talking about Boeing
instead of Halliburton?
OK.
I repeat my earlier assertion.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Feb 8, 2010 4:06 PM CST up reply actions
Defense Contractors =/= Boeing?
You know perfectly well what I’m getting at, but in your customary move you dismiss counerpoints with the wave of your magic wand.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 4:09 PM CST up reply actions
I repeat
my earlier assertion.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Feb 9, 2010 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
Thank goodness pitchers and catchers report in a matter of days!
If we’ve been reduced to a tax discussion to pass the remaining days of the offseason, we all need to see some baseball soon or I fear for what will become of the site!
Hey, it's a new century!
In order to properly voice your concerns to the appropriate party...
…please submit form 701E to your local complaint director, with cosignments by your spouse/parents/next of kin. In the event that you have been a fan for more than twenty years, please also submit forms 91 and 227B to verify the aforementioned statement as true, with approvals from the Department of Fandom and the Council of Chicagoland Constituency. Should you be a residence permanently (or temporarily relocated for a period greater than 180 days) located outside the Chicagoland area (as defined in Document 17, pp 112-113), please consult with your regional representative for their documentation on your recent relocation having nothing to do with the support of your team. Copies of appropriate documentation must come with proper notarization applied by your district judge.
by Flatley on Feb 8, 2010 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd
And copied for future use on the ’Pit. :-)
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 11:40 AM CST up reply actions
Full ack
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
by eths on Feb 8, 2010 11:37 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
We elect lawmakers to make laws and assorted other pieces of 'work.'
I’m sick of everybody wanting to vote on every damn issue that comes up. The CA initiative system, is completely broken. Many good ideas have fallen by the wayside because everybody feels the need to vote on everything.
It’s painfully obvious that it’s almost impossible to get a consensus in this country on ANYTHING. Let the lawmakers make the laws.
If you don’t like the laws or actions legislators make, vote them out. That’s how it should be
I’m tired of local elections hijacked by people who always stand in the way of ANYTHING. For so many, it’s just say “NO” to everything, progress be damned.
Why would anybody want to run for office? It’s beyond me. You can’t please anybody and even pleasing 1 person more than 50% seems impossible.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Feb 8, 2010 11:35 AM CST reply actions
I agree 100%
the law in Mesa is ridiculous. In theory, they cannot build a city park that costs more than $1.5M without putting it up to a vote in a general city election.
But, then, to further prove your point, this law was created because of a ridiculous proposition that was put on the ballot and passed by the voters.
Our politicians are pretty lame, but not as lame as the general electorate.
Two-party system = irretrievably broken
Most people have views that do not fit into the two available boxes. You may be Republican on taxation, but Democrat on abortion – or vice-versa. But whichever you vote for then has a mandate in both areas.
Not that I care, since I don’t get to vote. :-)
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 11:38 AM CST up reply actions
And...
… although this is a politically charged topic, let’s keep the parties out of here, Jim — that’s not an area I want to get into on this site.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Oops
I forgot, my bad. Though that is why I did say “vice-versa”, in the interests of balance!
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
CA initiative system?
How did the Cubs get into that? Is that a funding source? Can the Cubs annex California for the necessary ST complex revenue?
"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 8, 2010 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
can of worms
If you don’t like the laws or actions legislators make, vote them out. That’s how it should be
This would be possible in CA if not for the way each district was been redrawn over and over again to suit whoever is in power.
/politics
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 11:37 AM CST reply actions
dangit...
this was a reply to SDSJM.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 11:37 AM CST up reply actions
Happens to all guys every so often. It's no big deal. Really.
by dat cubfan daver on Feb 8, 2010 11:42 AM CST up reply actions
gimme 10 minutes and I can reply again....
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
Sperm Whale?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
Seemed like a very porpoise-full post
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 11:49 AM CST up reply actions
That's the Cubs fail whale!
Adapted from this:
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Ah, I see
Hmm, maybe I could steal it too, and adapt it to have the whale being carried by a flock of rattlesnakes…
Or not. “Not” works too…
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 11:53 AM CST up reply actions
You must come back during a real game.
We have some very creative posters.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Feb 8, 2010 11:57 AM CST up reply actions
Just look below.
One of those “very creative posters” has gotten loose…..
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 11:58 AM CST up reply actions
Now I need to find a way to adapt this into somehting Cubs related
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
Ah, you saw the previews
for next week’s episode of Undercover Boss, didn’t you?
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Feb 8, 2010 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
It took me 15 minutes of staring at the picture
Before I realized there was a subject line. :-)
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Feb 8, 2010 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
Doesn't matter what it is.
I’m taking the under.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
I'm taking the between.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 12:30 PM CST up reply actions
Oh boy.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
Not sure but...
The first thing that popped into my head was
Grapefruit League…
- Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
- Germans?
- Forget it, he's rolling.
by Endrick on Feb 8, 2010 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If you make the bird red,
We could use this in reference to the St. Louis Cardinals.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2010 12:36 PM CST up reply actions
is this a better canvas to start from?
I’m still working on getting the shading right…
- Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
- Germans?
- Forget it, he's rolling.
I'm already hatching my plan.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
Cool
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
If this doesn't change Dan's opinion about Twitter...
…I don’t know what will.
by dat cubfan daver on Feb 8, 2010 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
No public funding
Cubs are holding AZ (Mesa) hostage. “Only” a 6 bit surcharge on an $8 ticket doesn’t make it right.
If they used their own money, any and all teams, they’d use it wiser. How often do these “returns” on tax payer money end up being correct and putting the municipality in the black (on that investment only) after its all said and done? Just like healthcare, let insurance pay it.
Sorry to say as a diehard Cubs fan but the team is holding Mesa hostage. Naples, Fla served the cause well. It helped the Cubs get $84M from Mesa.
As for Reinsdorf, he’s just another part of a self-pitying organization that’s an afterthought in their own town. Too bad they can’t put their energy towards making themselves better instead of trying to knock the Cubs down.
The Blackhawks built United Centre, $175M privately funded, 100% and its the best hockey arena in the NHL. Largest avg seating + SRO capacity to boot.
Just win the next game...!
Hall should read the bill
Not to mention, HIS DBACKS WON’T BE CHARGED!! They are on sovereign land, not subject to taxes.
Oh ya, and what about all of the sales taxes he’ll be sucking out of Tucson and the State and transferring to the Salt River Pima’s….who happen to be using stimulus dollars to fund their little stadium. Or Scottsdale, who will have to improve Pima Road at taxpayer expense to handle the new traffic.
If Hall had talked to the other 13 teams, it would be nice if he would read the bill and let them know that after the Cubs build a stadium, the new bill is the ONLY way they’ll ever get a cent to renew their own complexes.
The Diamondback’s add absolutely ZERO to the Spring Training pot. No hotel rooms. No out of state visitors. And now- not one penny of sales tax on tickets and concessions.
The Cubs make up 22% of spring training attendance, not including their away games which add huge numbers and probably push it upwards of 30%. The kicker-over half (100,000) are known to come from out of state! Where will they go if the Cubs go to Florida? The answer isn’t Arizona.
Just about everything in this post is wrong
The proposal is for a ticket surcharge, not a tax, so yes, the D’Backs and every other team’s fans would pay the same.
The ATSA was chartered to fund ST renovations, which it has done, and continues to do. It has done so at Phoenix Muni, Scottsdale, and Tempe Diablo and is already committed to do so at, get this, Hohokam, in 2012.
There is no bill to read to read…as yet. It was scheduled to be introduced today, but there are last minute changes to be made.
I don’t know why Scottsdale would have to improve Pima Rd, when the 101 freeway is there. I guess you mean the freeway interchange at Indian Bend, which guess what, was scheduled to be improved anyway, and it mostly being funded by Salt River/Pima.
Total Cactus League attendance in 2009 was 1.578M. Attendance at Hohokam was 203,000. That is like 13%, not 22%.
You got anything else?
uh... hang on...
So I get pointing out that there is no bill to read…
and arguing for it doesn’t make a lot of sense…
By the same token…
aren’t you arguing against a bill that hasn’t been written…?
- Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
- Germans?
- Forget it, he's rolling.
I'm not arguing against the bill
I am pointing out the flaws in the proposals that have been floated in the media…that may or may not be a part of the bill when it is introduced.
Actually, I believe he is correct about the Diamondbacks.
I don’t think any ticket surcharges or any other kind of state/county fees can be charged on tribal land. They can’t even sell lottery tickets at gas stations/convenience stores located on tribal land.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
No, that is not true
I recently attended a concert at Wild Horse Pass (Gila River Reservation) and the ticket cost included a “facility fee”, a “convenience charge” and a “handling fee”.
I suspect all of those went to the ticketing agency.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I would assume that the facility fee
goes to the tribe, as they own the casino, and the other surcharges go to the company issuing the tickets.
You could be correct...
… but I’d like to see proof of that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
But if it goes to the tribe...
… then the tribe is the one setting it, not the State, which means the State-driven surcharge wouldn’t come into play there.
Well this is academic anyway
Hall’s objection is that other teams are paying for the Cubs stadium and whether it ultimately affects the D’Backs or not is beside the point.
One of the things he cited is that other cities (Peoria, for one) have used ticket surcharges to help pay for a stadium, but only on tickets sold at Peoria.
There is no precedent for charging a surcharge at all Cactus League games to pay for one specific stadium. He definitely has a point and I would be willing to bet this does not fly.
22% could be coming from Cubs fans at other parks
I know in my numerous visits to AZ over the years (3 trips a year the last 7 years alone), I always see the Cubs ‘on the road’ whether its Surprise, Scottsdale, Maryvale, Tempe, PHX or wherever.
Right on regarding tax vs surcharge and I’m all for private-only financing.
Just win the next game...!
I understand that
but that isn’t what westerncubbie said. He said 22% was “not including their away games” which is incorrect.
Truth to tell, any estimate of how many Cubs fans attend away games is a wild ass guess, because there is no way to track that.
Having attended about half of the Cubs road ST games for the last 20 years....
… I can tell you that my very rough and based on nothing but personal observation estimate would be about 25-30%, at most road parks.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yeah caught that
Should have stated more clearly I thought his 22% number WAS including road games.
I agree with Al, below. A good 25% Cubs fans at road games at least . Surprise and Maryvale could be as much as 50% with perhaps Tempe the lowest.
Just win the next game...!
It's a state imposed fee....
No state imposed fee can be collected on Tribal Land.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 3:08 PM CST up reply actions
ok so without anything concrete...
We’ve all just spent the last x number of hours and pages of blog space debating
something that’s as likely to be the final product as Berry Bonds coming clean…
and I guess my definition of argument and yours differs slightly…
- Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
- Germans?
- Forget it, he's rolling.
Well, you could also
make the same point about the countless hours spent in the media debating the health care reform bill when it was just a work in progress and ideas were being floated in the media.
I think it is very likely that the final bill that gets passed will be somewhat different from what is being proposed, just as I am certain that one of the reasons the final bill will be different is public reaction to the proposals made before the bill is introduced.
That is how it works. If it seems pointless to you, nobody says you have to participate.
No doubt
There has been a lot of interesting discussion on this topic. I’ve learned far more than I wanted to learn about AZ government and their fiscal issues. However, I have to say that the arguments coming from some seem to be based on local politics and less on what is best for the Cubs. That’s fine I mean, I would probably have some concerns if something similar was occurring in my state or municipality. But, I think the notion that the Cubs are acting unfairly has been beaten to death. We can all argue over whether or not other teams have a right to complain – but at the end of the day if the Cubs get what they want – even if it appears unfair to other teams in the Cactus league – as Cubs fans why would /should we care? Life isn’t fair, and very often neither are business transactions. And if you’re really upset with your local or state politicians decision making abilities – then make it known on Election Day.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
by StevenABQ on Feb 8, 2010 1:54 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Here's why you should care
The President of the Cactus League just issued a statement that they are not taking a position on the ticket surcharge issue “until they have a chance to look more closely at it”.
He then went on to say that as much as they would like to see the Cubs stay in the Cactus League, the League will not support any proposal that is opposed by the majority of League members.
Bottom Line: If the 14 other teams are against this, as Derrick Hall states, then the Cactus League will not support the ticket surcharge and the City of Mesa and the sponsor of this bill will have to come up with some other way to pay for the Cubs ST stadium.
It has always been my impression...
… that Robert Brinton, the president of the Cactus League, has been one of the prime movers behind the effort to keep the Cubs in Mesa.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'm sure he is
but as he has not stated, not to the extent of alienating the rest of the teams in the Cactus League.
I haven't heard any of the other teams speak up...
… nor acknowledge they hired Derrick Hall to speak for them.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Derrick Hall
is no dummy. He wouldn’t say what he did unless he knew the other teams were lined up with him on this.
He is doing a public chat on Thursday…maybe I will quiz him about this. But I know Derrick well enough to know there is no way he would say this publicly unless he was on solid ground.
I'd like it if you would ask that question.
I bet you don’t get a straight answer.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Depends on how I ask it
If I ask it like this (and I do know Derrick, so I have no problem doing this):
“Derrick, are you at all concerned that some of the other teams in the Cactus League might come out and say they have no problem with the ticket surcharge for a new stadium in Mesa when you stated that they all are as opposed to it as the D’Backs are?”
Might be fun to see how he responds to that.
Yes, it would.
Please do ask it exactly that way. Thanks!
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Derrick is a puppet
I happen to knwo for a fact that this isn’t Hall’s hatching. This is the work of his hired lobbyist who also happens to lobby for west side teams and cities.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 3:10 PM CST up reply actions
Nonsense
that doesn’t even make sense, let alone have a ring of truth to it.
Is Reinsdorf a puppet of this lobbyist, too? Please….
No, Reinsdorf just likes tweaking the Cubs whenever he can.
I don’t have a problem believing Hall’s lobbyist is behind that. Maybe you can ask him that, too.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Hall's lobbyist?
The poster said he was a lobbyist who works for west side teams and cities. Hall’s stadium will be on the east side, so what common interest is there?
Working both sides
Hall’s lobbyist works for both sides. Hall was just willing to go along with the bad information he was given.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 3:46 PM CST up reply actions
Burn
Alright, you certainly got my attention. I can see why your so passionate about this, and perhaps I was too quick to dismiss this simply as a political issue. Thanks for your perspective, its good to have a knowledgable Cub fan in AZ who can sort out some of what we are reading. Although I would hope that the league and the other teams would weigh out a decision to be sternly against the surcharge. Sorry if I made you roll out with the fire and brimstone – seriously It was not my intent to challenge you – even if it came off that way.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
Jeez
I hope I didn’t come off that way, and if I did, I apologize, I did not mean to.
I wouldn’t say I am passionate about this, but, yes, it does interest me. In any event, I enjoy discussing it, I respect and appreciate the input of yourself and others, and am certainly open to listening to other lines of thinking about this, even when I find them illogical.
Even including the guy over the weekend who went all bizarre-o over this. I patiently put up with his nasty posts, which were full of inaccurate statements, even after he told me to go f*** myself.
Well
Compared to the lack of information that we had on the whole “Naples” deal at least you’ve brought some meat and potatoes to the table on this issue. I look forward to seeing how this progresses.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
If, by "interesting," you mean "woefully misguided"
As I added in the comments, targeting Hall for the Chase Field financing fiasco is “like blaming Barack Obama for the sexual misdeeds of President Clinton.” I pretty much lost interest in what the writer was saying, since she clearly has no concept of what she’s talking about.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
Not misguided at all.
The writer clearly recognizes that Hall wasn’t around 15 years ago when that tax was passed:
Apparently Hall wasn’t around 15 years ago when this city erupted in outrage over the Maricopa County Supervisors decision to slap a quarter-cent sales tax on everybody in the county to build the Diamondbacks that aircraft hanger over on Jefferson. This, without asking voters whether they wanted to pay such a tax.
In fact, that appears to be her point.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I read that as her complete ignorance
Because otherwise, the rest of the piece makes no sense, since Hall is then voicing the same sentiments – no taxation to fund pro sports facilities – as was expressed at that point. Sentiments which she appears to endorse.
Sheesh, it’s even more badly written than I thought.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
It's the irony
She’s pointing out that Hall, who was still in his frat boy stage at college misses the irony that his team plays in a fully funded stadium and is abandoning their other fully funded stadium.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
She makes it seem
As if Hall had anything to do with either stadium being taxpayer-funded. She needs to be complaining about those to Jerry Colangelo, not Derrick Hall.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
I didn't either.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Feb 8, 2010 4:58 PM CST up reply actions
That's not her point
Hall reaps the benefits every year of that stadium. The taxpayers still own it. I wonder how he would feel if the DBack’s lease had to pay the entire debt servicing cost? DBacks suck off the taxpayers each and every year.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:02 PM CST up reply actions
And it doesn't help
People posting wildly inaccurate comments there like “the new bill is the ONLY way they’ll ever get a cent to renew their own complexes.”
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
Explain then..
Bills to fix the issues faced in the west valley and current funding mechanisms have died two years in a row. If no one will step up to save the #1 team in the Cactus League, who is going to step up for the Brewers and A’s? No one because no one cares about them.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 3:48 PM CST up reply actions
The existing funding mechanism
The same ones which helped fund the other new stadiums and renovate the remainder? Proved to be enough for that, including a chunk the ASTA spent on Phoenix Muni, actually.
There are good reasons to suggest increasing taxes. Buying the Cubs a new park isn’t one of them.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
and in the meantime...
They are so far behind the tax will end before any renovations will be made. They’re 6-7 years behind now.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
Awh shucks
ST is to long anyway. I say skip it altogether and play ball in April.
Trade Doug Deeds to Washington.
The Jerry & Derrick Show
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
So let me get this straight...
… there is the standard way of funding stadiums – slap a tax on a city, county, or state to pay for the thing, under the premise that the money spent at said attraction, once it was completed, would then pay for itself in the region, bringing prosperity and ponies and smiles to all.
Many places attempt to divert outrage from their residents by slapping the tax on things that are traditionally paid for by tourists, thus shifting the brunt of the new entities funding to those that don’t live there. This is when we see hotel taxes, car rental taxes, things of that nature… it all makes sense, as those that can afford to spend the night in a hotel must have the money to not quibble over a % tax tacked on…
Mesa’s plan has done this, but has focused their tax even more, ensuring only baseball fans in the region take on the costs associated with this new fund – which will build the Cubs a new spring training complex, as well as fund improvements to other Cactus League complexes – thus meaning the Mesa residents who don’t attend Cactus League games won’t be affected.
Am i correct in all of this?
And the only way Reinsdorf is affected is that his tickets will likely increase in price by about a buck or two? No revenue will be taken from the teams, but instead their tickets will likely cost somewhere in the range of seventy five cents to two dollars more per?
Just want to make sure i’m clear here before i spout off with an epic rant about how silly this whole thing is…
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Feb 8, 2010 3:57 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
It better.
That many millions, SOMEBODY better get a pony ride out of it.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
Yes, you are essentially correct
but before you start spouting, let me add a couple of thoughts.
The existing mechanism is funded by tourists only, not people who live here. That source is now tapped out…for the next 6-7 years.
I think it is clear that if the ticket surcharge were to go into a fund that would benefit all Cactus League teams, as the existing tax does, nobody would have a problem with it. But, that does not appear to be the case, and as a practical matter, it cannot be, because the amount of money generated will be needed to be 100% directed to the Cubs complex.
The statement below says it all
Everything I have heard from the bill sponsor to the Mayor is that the Cubs are priority #1 and after that, money is there for the rest of the Cactus League.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:05 PM CST up reply actions
So, the argument is now
It’s ok, if all the other piggies can get their snouts in the tax-payer enhanced trough too?
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
The noise
There’s only one person complaining here.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:09 PM CST up reply actions
Come on now... be fair.
I’m trying to engage these dudes in a real conversation about it, and obviously they are in the minority as they are on a Cubs blog.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by one I meant the Dbacks
Having Hall and Reinsdorf pop off is not the wave of criticism he’s claiming.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:16 PM CST up reply actions
Hall
States, “The other 13 teams in the Cactus League feel the same way.” And not one single team has stepped forward to deny this is true.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
Nor has one single team stepped forward to confirm the statement.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
They don't need to.
When here is the only place apparently doubting Hall’s word, why bother?
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
This is baseball
Owners NEVER have other owners speak on their behalf.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
wait
you’re suggesting that silence means assent here?
I find that… unlikely.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Feb 9, 2010 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
His statement does NOT state that
when he says that all Cactus League team will benefit, he means they will benefit from the Cubs staying in AZ, which is true.
But, there is no way they get money from this "Cubs tax/surcharge. There simply won’t be anything left after the Cubs get their stadium and he knows that.
I actually made a call
Weird how a phone call works. Called McComish’s office. The idea is that the fund is set up sufficient to service Cubs first, other teams after. In short, other teams will benefit.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:11 PM CST up reply actions
That may be what he's saying now
But it’s certainly not what he was saying before today.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
That's just not the truth
He never said this was solely for the Cubs. He just didn’t. You assume because he said Cactus League it was meant that having the Cubs helps the League. As the mayor said, those assumptions were wrong and instead of calling the papers, they should have called him.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
What part of
“State legislation will be introduced that would provide the funding source for a new Cubs Spring Training facility.” is unclear?
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
That's a quote from a newspaper article.
Nowhere in that sentence does it say that the funding is ONLY for this facility.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The math doesn't work
That is a nice attempt at damage control, but somebody has to show me how the Cubs stadium will be paid for and there will be any money available for any other purpose any time in the next 20+ years.
Have you read the bill???
Again this is more assuming since you nor I have read the bill or know the details.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:23 PM CST up reply actions
Ok fair enough.
And your position, boiled down, is that it is unfair to expect other teams to be OK with – lets say for arguments sake – a $1 fee added to their tickets to pay in to this fund that may or may not ever end up funding improvements to fields not built for the Cubs?
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
That it is unfair, yes
but then the previous tourist tax is unfair as well,
I think my position is more that this is uncharted water, creates a bad precedent, and is bad policy.
And think about this…attendance in the Cactus League is about 1.3M. How many years of $1.3M does it take to get to $40M? That is why it is absurd to say that other teams will get money out of this.
So you believe that...
… a tourist funded method to building stadiums for spring training in the region isn’t feasible in general, not just in the Cubs case?
As i understand it, your state is in trouble… to the tune of $2 billion dollars. Nothing compared to what the idiots up here have us dealing with in IL, but nothing to laugh at none the less. Now, considering this… it seems unlikely that public funding not leveled at tourists alone is unlikely to be a popular idea.
My question, i guess, would be then… what do you suggest? The Cactus League clearly has a large economic benefit for your region. And long term, thinking beyond only the Cubs, there will have to be a continued investment in keeping the facilities that lure the teams to the Cactus League in place. Private funding is fun to talk about, but as long as there is another region (Florida, in this case) willing to fork over public dollars, it isn’t really an option. Staying in place, in both speaking of the Cubs and of other teams, won’t be an option forever.
Do you have other ideas on how to solve this problem, both specifically with relation to the Cubs, and more generally, for all teams of the Cactus League? What happens when those teams with complexes even older than the Cubs come knocking?
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
Florida's broke too, in case anyone hasn't noticed.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I have proposed two solutions that I think are entirely practical
the most sensible one is to make improvements/expand Fitch Park. If there are improvements that can be made at Hohokam, pursue those, also.
The other is to see how interested the Gila River Indians are in building a ballpark next to their brand spanking new casino…just as the Salt River/Pima Indians are doing for the Diamondbacks/Rockies.
I realize solution #2 would probably require a 2nd team, but Scott Smith seems to feel that Mesa can attract a team to replace the Cubs at Hohokam, so I say, go get ’em.
Part of the MOU between the Cubs and Mesa...
… requires the Cubs to help recruit another team for Hohokam. Other teams have already been contacted.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes
Part of the agreement between Pima County and the White Sox was that they would try to help recruit a team to Tucson Electric Park. The result? The White Sox proposed bringing a team from the Mexican League to train there.
Florida is in play
With the Cubs staying, there are a handful of Floida teams in play. Mesa has already said they are talking.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:35 PM CST up reply actions
The MARLINS!!!!!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 4:35 PM CST up reply actions
And then we can send the snakes to Florida!
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Feb 8, 2010 5:04 PM CST up reply actions
You don't really think the Cubs are going to pull a stunt like that, do you?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That depends on...
if they invite the Padres.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 5:13 PM CST up reply actions
My point is
it is totally meaningless to put a clause in there saying that if we let you leave this facility, you will help us find a team to replace you.
Reality is that teams are in no position to recruit other teams. They have no incentives to offer, no leverage, nothing. Do you think Crane Kenny can call the President of the Twins and say, hey, why don’t you move to AZ and then it will happen??
Gilas are out
They’ve said so themselves. Not enough money to make it work with what they Cubs need.
Fitch and Hohokam doesn’t benefit Mesa. mesa’s new deal will actually SAVE the city money since the Cubs will take over maintenance. Not to mention the sales tax that will be garnered from the new Wrigleyville.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:29 PM CST up reply actions
What the Cubs need
is the operative statement. It isn’t what they NEED it is what they WANT. They want it all, and want others to foot the bill and don’t want to share the stadium. It seems a little unreasonable. Maybe they need to call Naples back.
Ok, again... fair enough.
Now, i get the impression that you are a Cubs fan, but not ONLY a Cubs fan, and not primarily a Cubs fan, so i’ll trust you’ll be more fair with your answer here than most of us would be…
Neither of those options seem to net the Cubs a top of the line, state of the art new spring training facility. Now, recession / deficit / timing issues aside, i think we have to agree that that IS exactly what the Cubs will get. In Major League Baseball, and in the Cactus League especially, the Cubs are the big fish. Now, the team clearly believes (and i happen to think they are right) that they NEED a top of the line, state of the art spring training facility in order to compete with other large budget teams like the Dodgers, or outside the Cactus League, the Yankees and Red Sox.
Do you have a practical solution that will also get the Cubs this facility – which no mater how you feel about the timing or their being deserving of it – they WILL get?
And furthermore, do you have a proposal that will take care of the teams at Phoenix Muni, Tempe Diable, Scottsdale Stadium, Peoria Sports Complex, and other old (or run down) Spring Training complexes when they begin to realize their teams are at a competitive disadvantage?
I’m really not trying to pick a fight here. I simply see lots of “this idea sucks” type reasoning, with very little “we should be doing this instead…” to offset it. Yes, it sucks to have to tax anybody – a local population, an area’s tourists, Cactus League Fans – for anything, ever… but progress still must be made, you’ve gotta spend money to make money, all of that. If the Cubs and the rest of the Cactus League is such a boon to the region, how would you propose, long term, the region invests in the Cactus League to make sure it remains healthy and good for the teams? The old plan ran dry, it seems… and this new plan isn’t popular with anybody who got to take advantage of the old plan…
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
Oh option two
nets them a state of the art facility, just as it did for the D’Backs and Rockies.
The teams at Diablo and Scottsdale just received renovations and signed long term leases. It will be awhile before Peoria needs upgrading (there are many who think it is still the best facility in the Cactus League) and when the time comes, there likely will be ATSA money available.
Phoenix Muni has had a recent upgrade. Talks are going on as we speak between the A’s and the City of Phoenix to do more and get the A’s into a long term lease.
In fact, there isn’t really any “run down” spring training complexes at this point The older ones have been renovated and many are new. They may not all have the same bells and whistles, but those that do are all two team complexes. I keep bringing that up, but it must be understood that is key.
As a Mesa resident
I want the visitors staying in Mesa and spending their money here. It helps our budget and brings more money to my city. That can’t happen at Hohokam.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 5:54 PM CST up reply actions
I also live in Mesa
and all things being equal, I’d like to see the Cubs stay here, too.
But way back when this first came up, my reaction was “Mesa has no money to pay for a new ST stadium and the ATSA is tapped out!”
And all these months later, with all the discussion, proposed plans, MOUs, Naples involvement and everything else, my reaction is the same.
Oh be honest
You came out against the idea you previously supported when you realized you would have to
drive me EVEN further to games for years to come.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 8, 2010 7:29 PM CST up reply actions
Nope
I keep telling you…the Motel 6 will be long gone before the first pitch get thrown in the new Cubs stadium. I am happy to drive you around as long as I don’t have to sit on lawn and worry about you getting beaned by HR balls. :-)
Just had a nice dinner of red beans and rice (with salsa) as a tribute to the Champion Saints…
She'd have less chance of being hit by the HR balls...
… if she’d take her nose out of the newspaper from time to time.
:-)
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't mind her reading a newspaper
at a ST game. It’s when she does it as Dr. Tightpants is about to secure Gregg Maddux’s 300th win that gets me.
It was either that or jump over the railing
Which Al was afraid of and he was sitting almost directly below us.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 8, 2010 8:01 PM CST up reply actions
I was afraid of the railing?
Or of you crashing into me?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Me crashing in on you.
You called azjazzman’s phone to warn him to keep me AWAY from the railing
when Dr. Tightpants started to blow the lead. I read in the paper the next day that Greg’s father, Dave, was a nervous wreck in that inning too. I guess not everyone in the Maddux family is cool as a cucumber.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 8, 2010 8:07 PM CST up reply actions
I would have less chance of being hit by the HR balls
IF YOU CAUGHT them while I was napping.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 8, 2010 8:04 PM CST up reply actions
I had my Zatarian's jambalaya
with Shrimp, LAST NIGHT while I was watching the game. Unlike you I had been rooting for the Saints ( well as soon as The Packers were eliminated).
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 8, 2010 8:04 PM CST up reply actions
Whadddya mean??
I was totally rooting for the Saints! How could one not??
Besides, I don’t know what it is, but there is something Peyton Manning that annoys me.
Peyton Manning
is a douche. HJE told me so.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Feb 9, 2010 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
Yes by the Superbowl you were rooting for them
But you prefered other teams in the earlier rounds. A latecomer.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 9, 2010 4:13 PM CST up reply actions
Of course
I was rooting for the Hometown team in the Division Playoff game. But, I was behind the Saints in the NFC Championship game, and I always root for the NFC team in the Super Bowl…just like I always root for the NL team in the World Series.
Pretty consistent, if you ask me.
As i understand it...
… option number two, the Gila River Indians, aren’t interested. They can’t provide what the Cubs WILL get elsewhere, be it Mesa or Florida.
Would it be fair to say the Cubs have one of the worst complexes down there, considering the distances between everything, the age, the size?
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
I don't know about "worst"...
… the Cubs have a nice stadium, the practice fields are OK if a little below standard, and they’re 3/4 of a mile down the road.
The issue is that the bar has been raised and other teams have facilities that are significantly better. The Cubs want part of that action, and given that they drive the Cactus League engine, I don’t see why they shouldn’t.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
No reason why they shouldn't
but the timing for this is terrible. Given the fact that: #1 – They refuse to consider training in a two team complex. #2 – The action that they want a part of is a train that has left the station, the Cubs may, and I predict will, have to compromise some – or get creative.
I still gag on this “Cubs are the engine that drives the Cactus League” nonsense. That is patently not true, and it does not rationalize being treated differently than anyone else in the league in any event.
You're probably right about...
… having to compromise or get creative.
The Cubs are one of 15 teams in the Cactus League. Without specific numbers, I guarantee you they bring in more than 1/15 of the business — probably significantly more.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
did i read approx 22% somewhere
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
To answer the 2nd part
the ATSA already has plans to help finance improvements at various ST parks (including Hohokam). Those commitments are part of the reason they are tapped out. I have no problem with increasing the tourist tax a little bit and making that money available to everyone.
That's what this is
This is essentially an extension of that tax. The first tax is tapped out and the money will not come in on time before the tax ends.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:31 PM CST up reply actions
Right
but the new tax only benefits the Cubs (and Mesa), nobody else.
At least the tax part of it, that is. The ticket surcharge is a separate matter.
That's not what Mayor Smith said in his statement.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He didn't say anything to contradict that
You are misreading the statement. When he says that all teams will benefit, he means by having the Cubs stay in the Cactus League. He doesn’t mean they benefit monetarily….he can’t say that, the plan doesn’t allow it.
Nobody had yet
explained to me how enough money will be generated by this plan so that everyone can benefit. In fact, it has been stated that there Mesa and the Cubs will have to kick in some to make it happen. So there is no way there will be enough to spread around to other teams.
There will
It doesn’t actually take much for the $56 million to be raised. The surcharge doesn’t pay for the stadium, it provides bonding authority.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 5:49 PM CST up reply actions
$56M?
Try $59M, in the best case scenario
You still gotta pay off the bonds.
Do the math. If it is a $1 surcharge, as Al speculates, that is about $1.3M per year.
We know the “tourist tax” will have to be a small incremental increase, because that cow is already being seriously milked.
It is a real stretch to get from there to $59M. Let alone have anything left over for other uses.
The good thing is that with a public vote looming, the authors of this plan will have to provide details of the financial model prior to the vote. You will see then that I am right.
The numbers will be there somhow
I’m not a bond trader so I have no clue what kind of capability you get with $1.3M a year. Only time will tell.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 6:18 PM CST up reply actions
Doesn't matter what kind of underwriting you get
you still have to pay off the bonds, and you can’t pay $59M with $1.3M annual revenue.
Your comment “The numbers will be there somehow” leads me to believe you should be in government.
OK
I just saw Mayor Smith on the evening news and he has clarified about the ticket surcharge.
Basically he said that the money would all go to the Cubs project until it is paid for, and then would go to the general ATSA fund for other uses.
So, I’d have to say I was right about this, although the new information that I find interesting is that this proposed surcharge would be perpetual and not something that would be removed once the Cubbie project was paid for.
That is another strike against it, in my mind. Jeez, why don’t they just make every Cactus League fan empty their pockets as they enter the ballpark from now on.
really its been enlightening to a degree.....
never knew so many details could go into all this, also all the dips and turns. Truthfully I didnt understand much of it.
baseball.........is Kool Aid the remedy, or the cause of my desire for it
Kind of the way I feel
when I see Al’s Facebook posts about Chicago politics. I saw one the other day about some guys ex-girlfriend saying he isn’t fit for public office. I thought, I’m glad nobody is asking any of my exes whether they think I am fit for my job! ;-)
How many of YOUR ex-girlfriends...
… did you meet in a massage parlor that was well known to be a prostitution hot-house?
Trust me, compared to most of the guys we’ve got up here… you ARE fit.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
Don't answer that question azjazzman...
trust me, no good will come from it.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 9:49 PM CST up reply actions
I have no problem with increasing the tourist tax a little bit and making that money available to everyone.
Agreed. As long as the decision on who gets the money is decided impartially, and based on need, not on threats.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
weird
Aren’t threats how the DBacks ultimately got out of Tucson? Sure Reinsdorf was the bad guy but the DBacks did NOTHING to stop him or encourage him to stay because they wanted out so badly.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:34 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think so
the comments (at least publicly at the time) was that the D’Backs wanted to stay in Tucson, but it wasn’t practical with the WS gone. That may have been posturing, but that is what they said.
What could they have done/said to make the WS stay? Reinsdorf wanted to be in Phoenix and he wasn’t going to have it any other way.
DBacks played the nice guy
It was widely known that Tucson begged the DBacks to intervene and they did nothing. Reinsdorf had no problem being the jackass because it fit his MO.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:39 PM CST up reply actions
LOL
You say elsewhere owners don’t even let other owners speak for them – yet now reckon Derrick Hall could have held the White Sox in Tucson? The agreement signed voluntarily by the city allowed the D-backs to leave if less than three teams trained there. No threats needed for Arizona.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
Wow, you're a champ
You love to put words in peoples mouth. Totally separate situations.
It was widely known that Tucson begged the DBacks to intervene and they did nothing. Reinsdorf had no problem being the jackass because it fit his MO.
Guess what, when press releases went out, it was from each team.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:41 PM CST up reply actions
"Widely known"
Sources, please. And hopefully rather better ones than for your claims Hall is a paid-lobbyist’s lackey.
And I’m still waiting for you to tell me how the D-backs could have made the White Sox stay, even if they were begged.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
Newspaper account
Get on the Tucson Citizen. There were no fewer then 10 stories quoting County Supervisors and City Councilmen about efforts they asked the DBacks to help with.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:45 PM CST up reply actions
And, now for the *third* time
How could the D-backs have made the White Sox stay?
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
Not saying they could have
Was commenting on the threats. Once the Sox left there was no keeping them.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:49 PM CST up reply actions
So
The Diamondbacks were asked to do something they couldn’t do, and that’s their fault?
"....who in good faith and without too much qualification assented to at least a part of the frankly villainous dictum that all is fair in love and war."
-Ambrose Bierce
Alphabetically! or better yet, with a baseball tournament!
Round Robin ST Cactus League Tournament – double elimination.
Money to be distributed as follows.
First place – 60%
Second place – 30%
Third place – 10 %
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 4:35 PM CST up reply actions
I'm down with this
It’d add something to spring training games.
“This time, it matters.”
No, wait…
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
Statement from Mesa Mayor Scott Smith Saturday on this issue:
"I’d like to emphasize to everyone that what we are proposing is not just a Mesa project: it is a Cactus League project. The Chicago Cubs are far and away the leader in Spring Training attendance. They bring in thousands more tourists than any other team in the Cactus League, which creates an economic impact for all of Arizona in excess of $100 million each year. And, the Cubs spread these benefits around. Scottsdale and Phoenix/Tempe get more Cubs tourists in their hotels than Mesa! This is about jobs and tourism dollars that positively benefit this state every year.
From day one, I have advocated a solution that not only keeps the Cubs from moving to Florida, but provides a framework that will benefit all Cactus League teams. Unfortunately, the other Cactus League teams jumped to a conclusion and declared their opposition to a bill they have neither seen nor even discussed with either House Majority Leader McComish or me. We hope the teams will take the time to meet with us this week to discuss the various proposals on the table, including a possible surcharge. This is not just a Mesa or Cubs problem. All teams and cities will reach a point in the future when they too will be faced with the challenge of upgrading facilities that have aged or are obsolete. Hopefully, the teams will keep an open mind and discuss honestly how this problem can be resolved so the Cactus League can remain strong and successful. To do otherwise is shortsighted, selfish and foolish. I welcome the opportunity to explain the bill and other proposals to the leaders of any other Cactus League team."
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well, I applaud Scott
for this clarification, but this comes off as after the fact damage control. The opposition voiced was based on his original press release. If there are some erroneous conclusions, then he needs to provide more details and clarification.
As I have been saying, the bill that is presented to the legislature will likely not contain a ticket surcharge, at least not in the form originally proposed, in it.
Yep, that reads as nothing more than Scotty finding the reverse gear
When he realized his original plan – to foist the majority of the burden of tax onto those outside Mesa – was being gunned down from every angle.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
From day one, I have advocated a solution that not only keeps the Cubs from moving to Florida, but provides a framework that will benefit all Cactus League teams.
That doesn’t sound like a reversal to me.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Read
The effort by Arizona and the City of Mesa to keep the Chicago Cubs in the state continues to move forward. On Monday, state legislation will be introduced that would provide the funding source for a new Cubs Spring Training facility. The legislation will propose to build upon the successful Arizona model of using tourist-related fees to bolster economic development. The bill will seek to increase rental car fees and implement a surcharge on Cactus League tickets.
No mention of “various proposals” for funding, and not one mention of “a framework that will benefit all Cactus League teams.” Count how many times the Cubs are mentioned in the release. Then how many times any other teams are mentioned.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
It's a City of Mesa release
The City of Mesa is talking about the city and the Cubs. They are not the ones crafting the bill.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:15 PM CST up reply actions
So are
the latest comments by the Mayor. You can’t accept one and reject the other.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
Come on...
You’re going to admit that was a stretch right….
He’s getting slammed in the media by an owner, it’s appropriate for him to respond.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:18 PM CST up reply actions
By backtracking completely
How clear does it need to be? The original release made no mention of funding other teams and also stated baldly, “The bill will seek to increase rental car fees and implement a surcharge on Cactus League tickets.” Now it’s “the various proposals on the table.”
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
Its damage control and it buys time, which is what Mesa needs
Whether or not he’s guilty of lack of due diligence up front is debatable but he’s doing what he needs to do is come out and clarify a position.
Just win the next game...!
Sounds like a shut your ignorant mouth...
Sounds to me like he was pointing out some clear ignorance to what was proposed. This little nugget sounds completely opposite to a backtrack.
“Unfortunately, the other Cactus League teams jumped to a conclusion and declared their opposition to a bill they have neither seen nor even discussed with either House Majority Leader McComish or me.”
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:13 PM CST up reply actions
I repeat
Read the official City of Mesa press release. It’s basically an entire U-turn by him.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
Okay there Jim
If it makes you happy….
I understand your President was clearly embarrased after being lulled in to bed with Reinsdorf. Not sure why Hall didn’t call the Mayor or Majority Leader McComish. He probably has a thing or two to learn about politics.
No one buys his arguments and no one is naming him hero of the taxpayer anytime soon.
The irony of all of this is that had he picked up the phone and called one of those two people- this probably never would have come to light or had been an issue.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:27 PM CST up reply actions
Or if the original press release
Had not apparently been filled with wild inaccuracies regarding both the source and destination of the funding. Silly Derrick, not thinking that an official release on the Mesa city web site could be so entirely fictitious!
I guess we should take all of Smith’s and McCormish’s future pronouncements in a similarly suspicious light…
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
PR
It’s a press release. If these guys are taking press releases for every ounce of fact-they have no business running multi-million dollar organizations.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:32 PM CST up reply actions
So why should we believe the next press release
When it says the exact opposite? Again, you can’t reject one as pure “PR” and then swallow wholesale every word of the other.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
Swallow every word?
I think the Mayor said if you had questions-you should call me. Doesn’t seem that difficult to me. You are comparing two completely different releases also. One is a press release announcement. One is a statement commenting on recent news articles.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
And yet
Both appear on the same website, with the same heading, “News Article.”
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
No offense
You can’t argue with stupidity. Until you can justify Hall not talking to either the mayor or the bill sponsor before calling a newspaper, we have little left to argue about.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:43 PM CST up reply actions
Seems like Scotty and his pet politician
Didn’t talk to the other teams in the Cactus League either, before announcing in a press release the plans to surcharge all their tickets.
Pot… Kettle…
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
Doesn't effect their revenue
If it doesn’t take money out of their pocket I’m not sure why he would need to.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:47 PM CST up reply actions
Let's put it this way
How would you feel if the state of IL overtly placed a tax on Cubs tickets solely for the purpose of enhancing the facility of the team that plays 9 miles south of Wrigley?
That, at least to me on the surface, appears to what could be happening in Phx metro.
Just win the next game...!
Big difference
The Cubs leaving AZ would be an enormous financial and symbolic move to the entire Cactus League. All teams directly benefit by having Cubs here.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 5:21 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah
But let’s get down to cases. The benefit is pretty small. Quantify for me how much the Oakland A’s profit from the Cubs being in the Cactus League vs them not being in the Cactus League. It doesn’t amount to much.
actually significagnt
You can see the bump in Cubs attendance and it averages 1,500 or so. Other much more. Take ticket revenue and add that and it is quite significant even over 2 or 4 games.
Take the League down to 12-14 teams and there’s less games to play.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 5:28 PM CST up reply actions
1500 fans at an average ticket price
of what, $10? Don’t spend it all in one place. And that money doesn’t go to the teams in most cases anyway.
Losing one team would not result in less games.
Less teams is less revenue
They have continually played more games every year that they have added teams.
If it goes down to 12 teams, there is less liklihood you’ll go watch team A play team B for the 9th time.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 5:53 PM CST up reply actions
How does it go down to 12 teams?
There are 15 teams now. If the Cubs leave, it is actually easier to schedule 14 teams than 15. Less off days, and fewer split squad games. But, in any event each team plays about 15 games in a non-WBC year during March and there would no problem scheduling that with 14 teams.
The loss in revenue would be miniscule. Noise level.
followed by...
The Cubs leave and others will follow. There will be no money to save the teams that will be looking for improvements in the next few years and Florida will have the momentum behind it.
If you call over $100 million a year minuscule then I guess we roam in different circles. I know Mesa’s budget would take a direct hit. Scottsdale would lose the most in room nights.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 6:32 PM CST up reply actions
You seem to have difficulty following
the conversation. I asked what the TEAMS would lose, not the cities.
There is no reason to think that other teams would leave if the Cubs do. Why would they do that? Almost all of the teams now have new or upgraded facilities and there are already commitments for further improvements.
not true
Less then half of the teams have new stadiums. If the Cubs don’t get a new stadium, none of the other teams are getting anything anytime soon.
Florida has shown they’re committed and will step up and start taking them.
The teams don’t lose any revenue with the surcharge as it is so the question isn’t really relevant. If the Cubs leave they absolutely lose revenue. Minor? sure. A loss? Definitely.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 7:01 PM CST up reply actions
Teams that have up to date facilities:
1) Mariners 2) Padres 3) Dodgers 4) White Sox 5) Rangers 6) Royals 7) Indians 8) Reds and next year add 9) D’Backs and 10) Rockies.
The Angels and Giants have been recently upgraded and have signed long term leases.
That only leaves 3. A’s, Brewers (both have said they are not leaving, but would like upgrades) and Cubs.
There really isn’t anybody, save the Cubs, that the Cactus League is in any real danger of losing.
contracts...
Padres and Mariners both have contracts that will be expiring. Not sure when the others are up but negotiations are within 5-10 years on many of the ones listed.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 7:31 PM CST up reply actions
Padres and Mariners
run up to 2015. There is no reason to believe they will not renew, they love it in Peoria.
Everybody else, save the A’s, Brewers and Cubs run up thru at least 2020.
the $$
If they get competing offers from other places, why wouldn’t they bolt? The Cubs love Mesa…
They all have opt out clauses like Mesa’s though I believe.
If the Cubs don’t get money, no one else surely will.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 7:44 PM CST up reply actions
The Cubs issue
is not with Mesa, it’s that they have spring training envy, with all the new facilities that have been built.
No envy for Padres and Mariners. Peoria is still one of the nicer facilities around, and in fact, it was the one that changed the paradigm for what a ST complex could/should be.
Also might be worth noting
The stadium in Peoria is older than Hohokam.
"....who in good faith and without too much qualification assented to at least a part of the frankly villainous dictum that all is fair in love and war."
-Ambrose Bierce
Yeah, I've often wondered
why Peoria seems so much more state of the art than Hohokam, even though it is older.
I think the reasons are:
1) It was the very first complex to house two teams and the design was scaled for that
2) More money was spent on it ($32M vs $18M)
3) They had a lot more land (145 acres vs 48 acres), Peoria has 12 practice fields.
Ok, I'm going to shut up now and let you take it
seems like we are singing the same song here, and I am a lousy singer.
Can you justify
the mayor/sponsor of the bill not talking to the teams or the President of the Cactus League before proposing the surcharge to the media? Seems to me that came first and set the precedent in terms of communication.
Two different stories
The Mayor is commenting on the fact that Hall and Reinsdorf are complaining about a situation which isn’t factual. Their entire argument is moot because they didn’t have the facts. It’s not they didn’t call. It’s that they are arguing about something that isn’t true.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:51 PM CST up reply actions
If it's not factual
It’s because the information given out by Mesa was not factual. Whose fault it that?
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
And when they decided to change their story
after people complained. It like when someone says something stupid and when you point it out they say, “Oh, I was only joking”.
It could be...
… that the statement issued was incomplete, but the intent of the bill (which, so far as I know, has yet to be presented) reflects the “reversal.” I’m not saying it’s true, but it’s a possibility.
I think it far more likely
that the sponsors of this bill are backpeddling because they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
I'm not so sure about that.
You could be right. It’s the “far more likely” thing I’m questioning, as I have to believe even corrupt politicians have enough sense to build in something that would make it tolerable to all parties impacted by the move. Oink oink, right?
My impression
is that sometime in January it became clear to Mesa leaders that this threat of the Cubs moving to FL was real, and they quickly cobbled together the MOU and the financial model to forestall that.
If you read between the lines, the statements from Scott Smith are saying that. It’s “hey we threw this together to get the Cubs to sign the MOU, don’t get your panties in a twist over the details, nothing is set in stone at this point”.
not what they are saying
Even the Cubs admitted they have been working on the MOU for months. The City Manager even went to Chicago a few months ago.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 5:50 PM CST up reply actions
Again-they comprehend as well as you do
One should learn, know the facts. I interpreted it very clearly one way, you the other. Before I went off and called the media, it would be wise to make sure I knew what I was talking about.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:54 PM CST up reply actions
So what you're saying
Is you expect Derrick Hall to disbelieve what is very clearly stated in the original press release and basically fact-check it on behalf of Mesa. Read it again.
On Monday, state legislation will be introduced that would provide the funding source for a new Cubs Spring Training facility… The bill will seek to increase rental car fees and implement a surcharge on Cactus League tickets.
There’s absolutely no interpretation needed.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
If that was me
and I thought someone might be putting something on my tickets with me getting nothing in return, I would make a phone call. Not that hard.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:58 PM CST up reply actions
I fixed it for you
If that was me and I thought someone might be putting something on my tickets with me getting nothing in return, I wouldmakeexpect a phone call. Not that hard.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
To each his own
How legislators introduce their laws etc is their business. Not sure what was done prior to it being announced but sure a phone call could have been made.
The decision was made on a Tuesday and announced on Wednesday which was over a week ago.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 5:04 PM CST up reply actions
We all have cell phones right?
Why didn’t Hall or Reinsdorf pick up the phone and call the Mayor, the bill sponsor, or any other supporter of the bill?
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:08 PM CST up reply actions
Hmmm
I’m not sure how you could have ever come to that conclusion but I guess we’ll agree to disagree.
For the record
I have always been opposed to any use of tax funds to build, buy or sell sports venues. As a businessman, it infuriates me to watch special interests get sweetheart deals while small businesses and middle class Americans subsidize them. The fact that Reinsdorf opposes the plan has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of this proposal. It’s terrible policy that, if implemented, will lead to further robbing the poor to pay the rich proposals.
Imagine MLB imposing a surcharge on other baseball teams to pay for the need of the Yankees for improved facilities. After all, they do have the largest attendance. Zell and the Trib just avoided capital gains tax on their $800M sale. Those unrealized taxes will instead be paid by every one of us.
Our businesses need capital improvements to stay current. Can anyone suggest why a baseball team deserves a break but we do not. The system is broken and the proposal to impose a surcharge on other teams to pay for the Cubs improved facilities only add to the inequality that exists between the haves and have nots.
Baseball has a tax
Big market teams (including the Cubs) have a tax and pay MILLIONS a year to small market teams (including the DBacks).
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
Profit sharing
Big Market teams share revenues with small market teams. Luxury tax is on top.
How’s THAT for supporting other teams in the league?
Is Derrick Hall ready to give up any future profit sharing from MLB?
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:46 PM CST up reply actions
If all the revenue sharing went to one team
I would expect Hall and all the other teams to scream bloody murder.
But wait...
If it went to one team it wouldn’t be sharing.
They participate in revenue sharing for the strength of the league. The DBacks are HUGE beneficiaries to this sharing so for them to claim righteous is hallow.
The proposal doesn’t take money from the teams-unlike revenue sharing does.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:53 PM CST up reply actions
Yes
and the ticket surcharge (and tax increase for that matter) isn’t sharing. So why did you bring it up?
Didn't
I was commenting on the MLB tax which I pointed out already exists and the dbacks gets lots of $$ from.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 4:59 PM CST up reply actions
Well
it’s not a tax, it is revenue sharing. It is shared with all teams.
So, I really don’t get how that is in any way comparable to what we are talking about or why you think it Hall should repudiate it.
It's Halls argument
Hall feels a surcharge takes money from his and unfairly uses other teams so the Cubs can get a new stadium. I just don’t hear him complaining that he gets millions of dollars because he’s located in Phoenix and the Yankees are in New York.
The revenue sharing is meant to make the league stable across the country-right up the need for the cactus League to be strong.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 5:07 PM CST up reply actions
FYI
It has nothing to do with profits. It is based upon team salaries. The highest payroll teams pay a % of their excessively high salaries into a pool which is shared by lower salaried teams. It’s done to try and prevent the Yanks, Red Sox and others from buying all the high priced players away from the KC, Pittsburgh and others. This is a case of a progressive type tax. The ticket surcharge is the reverse. It is a regressive tax. Is that what you prefer?
That's luxury tax
There is a revenue sharing pool that’s based on market size and revenue.
The teams don’t pay the ticket surcharge, the visitors do. Totally different scenario.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 5:47 PM CST up reply actions
Correct
but what he really described was revenue sharing not the luxury tax.
Just win the next game...!
Totally agree on the tax stuff
I didn’t get a sweetheart deal when I opened my businesses.
Just win the next game...!
Depends on your business
If your business brings millions a year from out of state and you are looking to move to another state and take all of that with you-you would have a leg to stand on.
by westerncubbie on Feb 8, 2010 5:08 PM CST up reply actions
While those tax incentives exist
my opinion is they are still detrimental to the general welfare. Jobs are lost in Chicago so employers can pay people cheaper salaries in Tennessee. Positions are sent to China without any labor laws. I know it happens but how has it helped society in general as opposed to improving a company’s bottom line. Finally, it isn’t offered to most small businesses.
However, this isn’t at all relevant to the surcharge being discussed.
It takes $ to make $.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 5:08 PM CST up reply actions
...
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
That's SWL's job.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
Total amout of $ I've ever made with photoshop = $0
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 9:50 PM CST up reply actions
so its an internship
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
So there is a master behind the master?
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
I pretty much self taught, so no.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 11:00 PM CST up reply actions
so you are the one not paying you to photoshop
you should have a long talk and demand a raise with yourself
Wait for it....POUND SAND Without me this board is Al Yellon talking to himself.....................by BLou
I'd better wait until I'm in a better mood...
otherwise I might fire myself.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 8, 2010 11:30 PM CST up reply actions
Hmmmm
now, this morning, we learn from Phoenix mayor Phil Gordon that the convention hotels in downtown Phoenix and rental car companies that operate at Sky Harbor are lining up in opposition to the proposed increases in the “tourist tax” part of this plan. No surprise there.
Anybody who thinks this is a done deal is kidding themselves.
I read about 1/3 of the posts here before my eyes stopped moving properly
My thought on this is that, provided this goes through, the Cubs will have played Mesa like a fiddle, Mesa will have played the state of AZ like a fiddle, and the state will have played the non-Cubs ST tourists and other cities and counties WITHIN the state like a fiddle.
Sounds like a Cubs win, and everyone else lose. And to be completely honest, as a Cub fan who lives in California and doesn’t need to rent a car to get to Mesa for ST, this is a HUGE win for me.
"You’re playing a baseball game. You’re not playing Tiddlywinks. There is competition, for God’s sake."— Lou Piniella
Aplogies to Niemöller
When they strong-armed the small municipality,
I remained silent;
I was not a resident.
When they coerced the larger city,
I remained silent;
I did not travel there much.
When they hoodwinked the state,
I did not speak out;
I did not pay taxes to it.
When they fleeced the non-Cubs ST tourists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a non-Cubs ST tourist.
When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Feb 9, 2010 5:54 PM CST up reply actions
So you're saying...
I’m one of a kind?
Thanks! :)
"You’re playing a baseball game. You’re not playing Tiddlywinks. There is competition, for God’s sake."— Lou Piniella
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