Could Castro be Ready?
Lou has already stated that Starlin Castro is ticketed for triple-A. While I agree with this decision, what would it take for a 19-year-old who has barely played above A ball to make the jump to the big club? It appears that the kid has all of tools needed to make it, but only lacks seasoning. The Cubs track record for bring position players to the bigs has not been good, so no one wants to rush him, but might he be able to make the leap? How great a spring would he have to make it? Give me some solid numbers and opinions on just how much of a wow factor he would have to have to convince the powers that it would make sense to bring him north with the big boys.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Injuries
If two of the following three (Baker, Theriot, Fontenot) go down with injuries, I believe Castro will be called up. I hope we don’t see Castro in Chicago until at least September, if at all this season.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Castro played at Double-A last year.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
Not - going - to - happen
And for very good reason because Starlin Castro needs more development time in the minors.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
do you inside info?

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
theriot could be the next

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
Rushing Starlin Castro would be yet another foolish move
Starlin Castro needs to spend 2010 in the minor leagues DEVELOPING. Unless of course many of you are hellbent on seeing his legitimate major league potential short circuited.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
I agree. The kid hasn't even seen AAA pitching yet.
Give the kid a chance to learn a bit more in the minors. And the Cubs have already stated that when Starlin says he is ready, they will call him up.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
AAA pitching is nothing special.
AA is where all the top prospects are at usually. Usually AAA is just an express trip before a callup is pending.
2010 is OUR year.
AA is where you face hard throwing prospects
AAA is where you face veterans/slopballers.
Both are important.
you will also find
a fair number of rehabbing big leaugers and guys who are that short step away from the bigs…hmmm yes lets not put him in AAA…goodness
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
Usually
The guys with great stuff and bad control are in AA
The guys with ok/good stuff and good/great control/guys clinging to the game are in AAA
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Just a guess
But you’ve probably never seen Castro play. Ever. Or if so, for an extended period of time, particularly not in the Arizona Fall League. Save your analysis of the media stooges scouting reports for another day.
Fact of the matter is, if Castro can play, he can play….no matter what his age is. Even more importantly, comparing him to noted Cubs flops is absurd. Those guys either weren’t very good or proved that they couldn’t make adjustments at the major league level.
"When the day comes with that last winning run and I'm crying and covered in beer. I'll look to the sky and know I was right to think someday we'll go all the way." - Vedder
i believe he should start in AA or AAA
but I agree 100% with your last paragraph, forget age, if any playher is ready and can succeed, then let him play
Sunday Feb 28 at 7 PM CST free webcast of the live taping of The Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
I agree with
that too. If he shows he is ready to play in the big leagues play him.
OK I don't know shit about basketball.
by SoulEater7 on Nov. 5, 2009 9:51 PM CST
I disagree
Tools are one thing. The maturity and mental makeup to deal with success is something entirely different. Not only does a guy need to be able to play well, but he has to have the maturity to not stop working when he does. If he does struggle, he needs the mental makeup to not cave and trust his game.
There is more to playing at an elite level than tools. I think that he could use another year to develop those tools, but also to mature some more.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
absolutely right
just because someone is XX years old doesnt mean that they are too old or too young (either to be a promotable prospect or a declining geeser). Perhaps the Patterson’s, Pie and others might have been better had they had just one more season where they didnt spend half their time watching the game from the bench. The big this isnt whether or not they are ready to hit big league pitching, but if they are ready enough to play full-time all year. In AAA he would get at-bats as a full-time starter and there-in lies the value of putting him in AAA, we want him to continuously get ab’s and fielding chances so that he can continue to develop and have some consitancy in how he approaches the game, not that he gets sent up – struggles, gets benched and sent back down to come back up and then back down and now he is worthless and everyone complains that our system ruined another prospect.
That and I REALLY want to see him play in person and am too broke to goto Wrigley.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
replacing him where his stats were these the previous year
153-G 663-PA 589-AB 88-R 174-H 30-2B 19-3B 9-HR 114-RBI 12-SB 5-CS 51-BB 36-K .295-BA .352-OBP .457-SLG .808-OPS 107-OPS+ 269-TB 0 MVP-14
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
I thought it was some sort of puzzle
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 12, 2010 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
looks like a question i got wrong
on my ACT test
Sunday Feb 28 at 7 PM CST free webcast of the live taping of The Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
Kevin Orie
Sunday Feb 28 at 7 PM CST free webcast of the live taping of The Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 11, 2010 8:02 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Did we actually RUSH Kevin Orie?
I thought he just flamed out …
Regarding Orie
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=orie—001kev
His minor league numbers. Good enough in A ball. Better in moderate sample size in AA.
Less than 200 at bats in AAA before being dealt. Over three years. Less than 100 before his callup.
Let Castro take a few more months in Tennessee.
If he does well, move him to Iowa for a few months. (Hopefully SC’s initial AAA numbers would be better than Orie’s in 1996.) Then call him up in September.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=scott-002gar
Gary Scott above. Worse than Orie.
Gotta disagree.
I think Castro is on a different level that any other position player we’ve had.
2010 is OUR year.
based on
one year of AA ball? That seems to be a fairly optimitic view based on not very much data imo.
DEJESUS!!!
I'm not just basing it off of just that one year.
I’ve seen him play – granted it was last year while he was at AA, but he has characteristics that normal 19 year olds don’t have quite yet.
I would play him at Iowa for a while and see if he sticks well there first though.
2010 is OUR year.
More like half a season
which makes your point even more.
But still, Castro seems to be something special. But rushing him does no good.
by Josh Timmers on Mar 11, 2010 10:29 PM CST up reply actions
I am basing my thinking on he’s a buzz all around baseball. Serious buzz.
I think he is probably the one player in the system if we were willing to part with we could get the moon.
Formerly known as cubstoseriesby100. Thanks Al for letting me change my outdated screenname.
by puckishcubsfan on Mar 12, 2010 7:51 AM CST up reply actions
You hope
it is more likely he turns out to be the next Kevin Orie than a Shawon Dunston
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 12, 2010 1:31 PM CST up reply actions
This is just a silly comparison
Gary Scott’s BEST minor league season, by far, came at AAA when he was 23 years old. His line was .263/.338/.421. He was never good. He had a hot spring, and Cub fans who didn’t understand anything about translating minor league stats got overexcited. There’s a reason Gary Scott never appeared on any best prospects lists. Yes, he was a second-round pick, but he NEVER cracked an .800 OPS in the minor leagues.
Starlin Castro is to Gary Scott as Jennifer Garner is to Kathy Najimi.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
by cubzfan on Mar 11, 2010 8:53 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Maybe, but...
… I don’t think we can get caught up in spring training hype. The kid needs a full year at a higher minor league level. By next spring, sure, give him all the chance in the world.
But not now.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Why though?
What is going to change dramatically from this year to next? Castro developes some more power?
When you go to spring training Al maybe then you’ll change your mind. Castro has all the characteristics that you could imagine a major league ready prospect to have. The only thing you could say he lacks is the (HR) power IMO and needs to improve his stealing . See this kid play, he is a better player than Theriot is right now.
It wouldn’t hurt him too much to have alittle more time, so I guess the time wouldn’t hurt. But I think the question should be would he be overmatched in the MLB? Is he better than Theriot?
2010 is OUR year.
by Unique on Mar 11, 2010 9:18 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
See this kid play, he is a better player than Theriot is right now.
Is he better than Theriot?
i dont know..
by jesus christos on Mar 11, 2010 9:34 PM CST up reply actions
The question was for people
who have seen him play. I already think he’s better than Theriot is now.
2010 is OUR year.
one thing Theriot does have over Castro
like him or not, he has proven he can play in the bigs. Castro has not proven himself to be a big leaguer yet. In time he will sink or swim
Sunday Feb 28 at 7 PM CST free webcast of the live taping of The Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
Castro has not proven he can play at a AAA level
let alone a big league level.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 12, 2010 1:33 PM CST up reply actions
which is what i was saying
Theriot has proven he can, Castro has not
Sunday Feb 28 at 7 PM CST free webcast of the live taping of The Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
and I was supporting your contention
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 13, 2010 9:45 AM CST up reply actions
Just because he's hit spring pitching hard for a week and a half...
… does not mean he’d hit major league pitching once he comes north, weather gets cold, etc.
He needs more experience.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I would agree...
…let’s see what he can do in AAA for a couple months and go from there.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Ronny Cedeno... cough... cough...
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
and when the
major league pitching actually cares about wins and losses and stats…
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
rec'd
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
Yes, to be clear I wouldn't bring him north
I would leave him in AAA until mid-summer even if someone gets hurt. He is potentially too valuable long term.
I’m just quibbling with those who say not to promote him because of the Cubs’ track record with prospects. We’ve had plenty of good prospects who came up young, they’ve just all been pitchers the last 10 years.
I love him, though. Looooooove him.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
Actually I think it has less to do with Castro than it does with the rest of the team
With Theriot, Baker, Fontenot and arguably Blanco ahead of him, at least one (probably two) would have to be injured, traded or in Blanco’s case sent down (assuming he cleared waivers).
I think it’s very possible one will be gone by end of spring training, depending on what it takes to land another bullpen arm or if only one MI makes the bench. Then once regular season starts, the injury bug could hit at any time.
I still doubt Castro would be promoted, even if he was doing well, unless… the rest of the Cubs are killing the ball. If Soriano and Soto are back with a vengenance, Byrd is everything he was last year and more, ARam and DLee are their usual badass selves, Dome’s OBP is .400+….
In other words, if all Casto has to do is play defense and not worry about offense, then he could come up and stay up. Otherwise Barney is the stopgap measure until Hendry finds another solution and Castro stays at Iowa and continues to develop.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Mar 11, 2010 8:17 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I agree mostly.
When you look at the #s Fontenot and Theriot put up in ‘08 and Baker in ’09, it’s in the Cubs’ best interests to let all three of those guys play and have a solid sense of what you’ve got with each of those guys. They need MLB playing time – not just as, but – as Castro needs MiLB playing time. Going to AAA will certainly not hurt Castro, and probably will help him, so it makes sense all around.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
I will be very interested to listen to Lou's take if Castro keeps hitting.
Yes, he has said point blank that only an injury to Theriot would punch Castro’s ticket north. It would be a shock for any player, much less a 19 year old, to SUCCESSFULLY jump from rookie to HIgh A/AA to the Majors in two seasons. But it wouldn’t be unprecedented.
So, to answer your question – I think “Yes” – he could be ready, but it’s still too early in ST and it would be very, very rare. The ONLY reason he would come up is as a starter, because at his age he needs the experience of playing every day. The current team is not built around thinking Castro is good enough to supplant Fontenot and/or Baker as an every day player.
Barring injury (in which case, all bets are off for his return to Iowa), the Cubs would face the ? of who to displace on the roster. I doubt that will be a pitcher, so, assuming that the other starting 7 are staying (Riot, Dome, Lee, Ramirez, Byrd, Soriano, and Soto), which of these do you cut?
Fonenot, Nady, Hill, Baker, 5th outfielder (Fuld), ALL of the rest (Blanco, Millar, Tracy, Hoffpauir, Colvin). You might say Font or Baker, but then you lose them forever, and the insruance behind Castro that goes with them. You could keep both, but who backs up 1st? The decision is well beyond castro, who can be safely stored in Iowa for a few months, continuiing to make his (currently thin) case, while you decide if Font and Baker are really a detriment to the team.
by DisCUBbobulated on Mar 11, 2010 8:19 PM CST reply actions
If Castro would make it north
before the season starts — I would imagine Theriot would be on the trading block.
2010 is OUR year.
Actually, I think Jeff Baker might be the guy
that would be traded . He seems to be the kind of player a team with an injury in ST might go after.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Mar 11, 2010 8:55 PM CST up reply actions
I think Baker is better than Theriot
but something tell me a team would give up more for Theriot than Baker.
I just don’t think Theriot is going to be a Cub much longer, just a hunch. And the Cubs don’t want Fukudome to be the only left handed bat in the lineup so that’s why Fontenot seems like he always has/had the advantage over Baker and would over Theriot also.
2010 is OUR year.
lets trade him now while he has value
/sarcasm
Sunday Feb 28 at 7 PM CST free webcast of the live taping of The Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
That is a funny comment
If Castro does flame out there will be those that say Hendry should have known better and traded Castro.
Rich Hill, anyone?
that is the fun part of baseball prospects
you truly never know until, and then all the second guessing starts to run wild
Sunday Feb 28 at 7 PM CST free webcast of the live taping of The Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
IIRC, we were proposing Prior, they wanted Z and Pie.
Of course, a couple years later, they got Pie for nothing.
Even more to the point, Tejada signed with BAL prior to the 2004 season for like $12M/yr. for 4 years. We should have been all over that free agent signing…. instead we floundered with A-Gonz, Rey Ordonez, Neifi Perez, and a cast of thousands at SS for half the 2004 season before getting Nomar in August.
Fast forward a couple of years, and $12M/annually gets thrown at Fukudome sight unseen. Some boldness with Tejada and (after the next season) Beltran would have left the Cubs in a stronger position on the field and (ironically) on the payroll.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I honestly think we should.
Prospects are the most overrated thing in baseball. If they can get you Cliff Lee at the break (and ability to negotiate a contract), Adrian Gonzalez, something like that, i think you do it. I have been following this team for too long watching Rich Hill, Corey Patterson, and the list goes on and on. Even players like Angel Guzman could have got us great value.
sounds good to me
Sunday Feb 28 at 7 PM CST free webcast of the live taping of The Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 12, 2010 9:05 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
GRUMBLE.
A prospect that makes it, even a little bit, is a great deal. Because a team pays them peanuts for 3 years and then gets 3 years at still below-market rate.
Take Corey Patterson. A real bust, right? Well, the Cubs paid him, what, less than $4 million total? And in his Cubs tenure he provided them with production they would have had to cough up $20 million on the free agent market for (mostly in 1-1/2 seasons of excellent play — his 2004 season is seriously under-appreciated by most people). What about Rich Hill? Paid him next to nothing and got 1-1/2 seasons of #3 starter-type performance.
If you make a deadline deal for Cliff Lee you’re probably making your life harder in the future for the sake of the present. Which, if you’re contending for a title, is a good thing. If you trade a prospect for an established player already in his arb years (Adrian G.), and that prospect turns out to be Corey Patterson, you probably come out something like even in dollar terms. If the prospect does better than Patterson you lose big time. And dollars matter because you need them to sign impact players.
haha
the only problem then is we all complain when the guy succeeds on another team and call for Hendry to be fired…I mean the Hendry and Lou are the most successful managers of the team since Grimm…
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
Mostly unrelated question - Who backs up Lee at first?
It looks like one of Millar, Tracy, or Hoffpauir has to make the team. That means that one of Blanco or Fuld AND two of the three above don’t..
by DisCUBbobulated on Mar 11, 2010 8:29 PM CST reply actions
if only we had not traded Jake Fox.......
.sarcasm
Sunday Feb 28 at 7 PM CST free webcast of the live taping of The Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
Nady is a pretty good 1st baseman and has played there plenty
Although, yes, it would seem Millar, Tracy, or Hoffpauir would have to make the team anyway.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
Nady has 80-odd games at 1B, but none really in the last 3 seasons.
Was he any good at the position?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
TRL of course.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Mar 12, 2010 12:37 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Could he, yes?
Should he, no?
Can buying Lottery tickets be a good retirement plan? Same question.
Injuries or the team laying a total egg the beginning of the season...
I could see him being called up.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm once they've seen Karl Hungus??
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Mar 12, 2010 5:41 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
He's only 19 years old...
There’s no point in rushing him. Theriot is fine. It’s not like we Cesar Izturis at SS. If we did, this would be a different conversation. But Theriot is more than adequate. Let Castro develop a little more in the minors and actually be prepared for the bigs. No point in bringing him up to start the year.
Okay i have to ask it
Come July we’re one player away and a team comes calling with that player for us.
Do you even consider trading him if that’s who they want?
I have mixed feelings about this. Yes I don’t want to give up a kid like this but if what we got for him got us the world series Castro could win the next 10 MVP awards.
Formerly known as cubstoseriesby100. Thanks Al for letting me change my outdated screenname.
No player has ever won 10 straight MVP's.
And Castro isn’t going to be the first.
Further, trading for the so-called “one player away” does not guarantee you a WS win.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
No.
Because assuming the player in question isn’t Albert Pujols or Joe Mauer, Castro isn’t going to net the Cubs a guaranteed difference-maker.
No, he's not Pujols or Mauer, but what if he really tore it up
this spring? Would another team consider bringing him north and starting him? Is the Cubs recent history of flame-out prospects coloring their judgement. I don’t think he is ready either, but lots of guys have made the jump from AA to starting in the show. I’m just askin……..
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 12, 2010 11:52 AM CST up reply actions
Well, I was replying to...
…KOW puckish about trading Castro mid-season. I meant that, assuming the player the Cubs get back for Castro isn’t a Pujols or Mauer, it wouldn’t be worth trading Castro away.
About Castro himself, it’s hard to say what the Cubs should do: They rushed Corey Patterson and he didn’t work out and they were patient with Felix Pie and he didn’t work out either. But based on Castro’s age alone, I’d stick to the plan to start him in the minors. There’s really no evidence that spring training stats translate to major league performance. (Here’s one slightly dated and stats-oriented look at the topic.) So even if Starlin hits .400, it really shouldn’t matter. Let the kid develop.
Yes, you make the deal if it is what you think gets you over the hump
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 12, 2010 1:35 PM CST up reply actions
So if Ben Sheets stays healthy for the first half...
…and pitches well, do you trade Starlin Castro for Ben Sheets?
If you think it will bring you a title, yes
And for the record, Sheets has to do a lot more than just stay healthy to show he can get a team over the hump
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 13, 2010 9:46 AM CST up reply actions
Wow just wow
The expectations here are way overblown. Castro is a good prospect but even if you look at his comps, they are people like Edgar Renteria and Tony Fernandez. He is not the next A-Rod. Some of the projection lists have him in the middle of the top 100, some in the teens. No one has him in the top 10. Of course, he could exceed some expectations but he is not A-Rod or likely even Hanley Ramirez.
He is 19 or 20. The number of players that make the majors at that age are very few and usually you are talking about the superstar talents like Griffey and A-Rod.
I don’t care if he hits .400 in Spring Training. Send him down for another half season in the minors and reassess at that point.
by rlpete on Mar 12, 2010 8:13 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
Yeah but......
He is exactly what the Cubs are lacking-a speedy OBP guy etc. etc. I would say we need to KEEP HIM because he fills a hole and this team isn’t getting any younger.
He doesn't fill a hole.
The Cubs have a shortstop: His name is Ryan Theriot. And they have two backups at that position in Blanco and Barney.
And we don’t really know that Castro is an OBP guy at the major league level. Let’s hope he is – but I think he’ll stand a better chance of being one if he’s allowed to develop a little more out of the spotlight.
Guys.........
How many of us have lamented over the fact that we don’t have a true lead off hitter? Theriot isn’t it and neither is Fukodome. Starlin may be that guy and he helps us get younger. I’m not looking solely at OBP, I’m looking at the total picture.
Theriot is not a SS, he’s a 2B who is being used at SS b/c we don’t have a better every day player. If we did-Blanco or Barney would be starting at SS, now wouldn’t they?
If you're looking at the total picture...
…then let Starlin Castro develop and don’t rush him to the majors just to fill a lineup spot. Ryan Theriot is a shortstop; he’s played 513 major league games – almost 3,500 innings – at the position. Blanco isn’t a starting shortstop because he has a career .265 wOBA. And Darwin Barney, like Starlin Castro, is still a prospect.
And speed in the leadoff spot is overrated. Fukudome is absolutely suited for that spot because he has a high OBP and sees a lot of pitches.
If you would've asked the question......
I was NOT advocating for him to be called up right away. I was responding to your 1st paragraph about projections being overblown and trading him away. To be clear:
DON’T TRADE HIM AWAY, LET HIM DEVELOP 1 MORE YEAR, WE NEED HIM TO LEAD OFF.
Just because Theriot has played 513 games at SS doesn’t mean that he’s a SS or that is an “appropriate” position. That’s like saying because you have 2 legs that you’re a monkey, because a monkey has 2 legs.
You claimed Barney as a backup to the position-don’t change your logic. Even if I give you the fact that he’s a prospect (which he is), he’s nowhere to be found on the list of the top 100, and Castro is 16. So, Castro is much more of a “backup” than Barney.
Your line of reasoning and logic here is weak.
You do realize that rlpete and I are are two different people, right?
And your monkey analogy makes no sense. Ryan Theriot has earned the right to be called a major league shortstop. Period. That doesn’t mean he’s a great shortstop – but he is, at the very least, an average major league shortstop. I won’t even bother getting into his UZR numbers.
I get UZR.......
and I see he’s above average with UZR. Great. Woo-hoo. He still belongs at 2B. And yeah-I misquoted you guys in my above post.
If Riot truly is as good as UZR claims at SS...
… and I’m not convinced that’s the case, but he’s probably been at worst in the neighborhood of average. IF Riot can provide average or better shortstop defense, then he belongs there. I don’t think anyone else in the organization could produce more for the team that Theriot in 2010. Finding someone else to play there would hurt the team. So leave the Riot be.
I think you're underplaying him a little
in a fair reaction to others overplaying him.
He’s rated 12th by Keith Law and 16th by Baseball America, ahead of the much hyped Aroldis Chapman in both cases. Kevin Goldstein at BP has argued that Castro is overhyped, but has still rated Castro 36th – his lowest ranking (well, at least as far as I’m aware). So, when the top “nay-sayer” is still ranking you 36, yes, that does make you very special.
I agree that he should start the season in the minors, but to answer the initial question – what if Castro really is ready? – then he’s very special, because the # of players who are ready in their teens is a short list. Of course, you can’t say anyone is the next Griffey or A-Rod, because they had tremendous longevity to their careers. You can’t even say Justin Upton is the next Griffey, for just the same reason it was a mistake to project out for Griffey at the time of the SEA-CIN trade, when he’d break the HR record.
But if he really is ready at age 19, he’d start his career in rarefied air. Who knows where he’d finish that career, but being ready at 19 would speak very well of his potential future.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
Even if he appears ready...
he should start the season in AAA or maybe even AA, depending on whether he needs to face some better prospects. I predict we’ll see him in September at the earliest. Let this kid develop mentally and physically. In other words don’t screw this up.
You ARE freaking out MAN!
I like this little blurb from the Trib...
But few Cubs prospects have performed as well as Castro has early in the games. When he smacked a first-pitch home run to left in the fifth inning, Piniella looked at bench coach Alan Trammell with a wild-eyed grin on his face.
You ARE freaking out MAN!
that is cool
" It’s spring fever - you don’t know what it is you want, but it fairly makes your heart ache, you want it so. "--Mark Twain
by cooliogirl47 on Mar 12, 2010 9:25 AM CST up reply actions
That is cool. Coolio actually. ;)
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
I'm REALLY looking forward
to seeing him play in Memphis this year if he starts with Iowa…So I wouldn’t be FURIOUS if he played in AAA for awhile…
"If I wasn't in our band I'd hate us, just to be cool." -Daniel Johns
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Mar 12, 2010 12:16 PM CST reply actions
Well, you have a pretty good shot if he does....
… Iowa plays @ Memphis in April.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Exactly...
"If I wasn't in our band I'd hate us, just to be cool." -Daniel Johns
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Mar 12, 2010 8:23 PM CST up reply actions
Huh.
I really don’t know how so many people can feel so certain about this. Yeah, some Cubs prospects have been rushed (Patterson) but others arguably were in the minors too long or didn’t really get a shot in the bigs (Pie).
NONE of us are experts in player development (right?)t, and I doubt many of us have watched Castro for more than a game or two. I’m hardly one to shy away from having strong convictions about the Cubs. But I’m amazed that so many people feel they know with certainty what is the correct course of action regarding Starlin Castro.
Because.........
opinions are like ___________, everyone has one.
noses?
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Mar 12, 2010 4:57 PM CST up reply actions
OK ...
but how can so many people have such STRONG opinions about Castro at this point?
because people want
to believe their own eyes over numbers.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Mar 14, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
everyone has a line?
Sunday Feb 28 at 7 PM CST free webcast of the live taping of The Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
Not exactly true
The people saying he should start in the minors also have history on their side. How many successful 19 year old players are there? The ones that are are usually your generational stars which no one expects Castro will be.
The Cubs are trying to contend in 2010. I really don’t see him as the starting shortstop in April.
I don't either, based on the comments from Lou, et. al.
My point is that strong opinions on BCB usually come from watching a lot of games, doing research, etc. I doubt many or most of the people who are so convinced they’re right about what the Cubs should do with Castro have done THAT much research or watched him play very much.
I don't think...
…you count him out from the start simply because the Cubs have had a poor track record with their prospects. Every player stands on their own merits and should be viewed seperately.
I’m not saying he is ready right now or not, because I simply don’t know, but I do know you just treat him on his own merits.
The other thing to consider here is the Cubs probably don’t want to start the clock on him if they don’t have to – that is legit.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I'm not using the Cubs track record
I’m saying across all baseball. The number of successful major leaguers at 19 or 20 is small. Add the pressure of the Cubs and trying to contend and I see no way he should make the team in April.
Actually, my LACK of certainty about Castro...
…is precisely why I think he should spend all or most of 2010 in the minors. I’ll be the first one to admit, though, that I have no expertise in player development.
To quote Orson Welles
“We shall sell no wine before its time” To rush Castro is to compromise and possibly do irrepairable damage to his major league future.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
You are correct, sir.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
But how do you know we're rushing him?
Are you basing that solely on his amount of time at AA?
Speculation..........
But perhaps folks are hungry for the Cubs to develop their own major league talent.
Starlin Castro needs another year in the minors
Certainly, I am impressed by what he has done. But he is young and very inexperienced when you look at the number of professional baseball games he’s played. Hopefully he is the real deal at some point, but to rush him is a fool’s exercise for a Cub organization that has a horrendous track record in developing talent.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
Again, you make a valid point here in a non-combative way.
Keep it up. We’re much more likely to engage you in conversation this way.
Even if I disagreed with this (which I don’t — Castro should play this year at Iowa), someone could have a reasonable debate with you about this.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Mar 12, 2010 7:55 PM CST up reply actions 6 recs
Green'ed.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
rec'd
Sunday Feb 28 at 7 PM CST free webcast of the live taping of The Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
Does he? He certainly is young and inexperienced, but does that preclude him
from being considered as a potential starter? Some guys need a significant number of at-bats at the mnor league level and some guys learn to hit major league pitching by batting against major league pitchers. The Cubs previous track record shouldn’t be figured into this equation. Castro is not Felix Pie or Corey Patterson. His path to the majors should be based on his performance. If he has hit at the previous levels, is it resonable to assume that he would hit at the major league level?
What is the down side here? If the Cubs are holding him back to delay free agency, fine. That is a fiscally responsible move, but is there any upside to moving him up right now? can this current roster compete for a title? If the pitching staff is not strong enough to carry them to the playoffs, maybe it’s best to move him up and let him see major league pitching right away.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 12, 2010 8:57 PM CST up reply actions
calling him up now
is an extremely stupid thing to do
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Mar 12, 2010 10:02 PM CST up reply actions
Really? Extremely stupid? Players have made the jump from AA to the majors
in the past and have done it successfully. Sure, his experience has been limted, but shouldn’t the decision be based on his performance and not some prescribed time period. That was my original post question. If he had a fantastic spring, could it be a consideration. I am not advocating bringing him north. My original question was “Could a stellar performance by a 19-year-old raise enough eyebrows to consider the move?” If he lead the team in hitting this spring, would that be enough to warrant promoting him?
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 13, 2010 8:10 AM CST up reply actions
No
I don’t care what he hits. 20 year-old starters in baseball are extremely rare and you are usually talking about A-Rod and Griffey type talents.
Even if he bats .800 and hits 10 home runs?
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 13, 2010 9:10 AM CST up reply actions
can you be any more ridiculous?
I am betting I will be sorry I asked.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 13, 2010 9:50 AM CST up reply actions
No, ripte said "I don't care what he hits". My contention was is there a number
that Castro could hit that would make him consider it. Don’t worry about being sorry to ask me anything, I’m just asking for an opinion here.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 13, 2010 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
Well if every hit is a home run then maybe but
realistically there is nothing he could do in the spring that will change my mind. He should go to the minors and the Cubs can reassess in mid-season.
Really? That's interesting that the opinion seems to be "I don't care what the guy does, I
think he should go to the minors." If he shows the ability to hit major league pitching and he is the best glove at short I would seriously consider it. Certainly past history of players of his age and experience being sucessful immediately is not great, but I wonder if we are rejecting the thought of him making it at the big league level because of past failures within the organization. The success of a guy like Gordon Beckham makes we wonder if we are oversating the value of remaining in the minors for a set time period. Just a thought.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 13, 2010 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
gordon beckham
is 23
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Mar 13, 2010 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
I realize that. I was referring to amount of time spent in the minors.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 13, 2010 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
But don't discount the time he spent playing baseball
in other formats as well – it’s not just the minors.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
Spring Training isn't the regular season
and Beckham played in college and is older. I guess we’ll just have to disagree. I don’t think he is ready to start at SS.
I'm not disagreeing with the decision to send him to the minors. As I stated
in th original post, I think it’s the right move to send him to AAA. I was just wondering if there was any condition under which the argument could be made to send him north. Conventional wisdom says that he is not ready for the bigs yet, but conventional wisdom could be wrong. We will never know whether he could make the jump now, but if he could it would give the Cubs a hell of a talent for a long time to come.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 13, 2010 11:41 AM CST up reply actions
I think there is a scenario under which he could make the club out of ST
and I outlined it earlier in this thread (link).
Short version: Trades and/or injuries open up a MI spot, and the Cubs offense is firing on all cylinders. That way, all Castro has to do is play defense and bat 8th – no offensive pressure.
But again, not likely.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
It's possible Castro will be a star, as we all hope.
But I don’t think he has enough experience to jump two levels. Give him time at Iowa. He will turn 21 just before the 2011 season. To me, that’s early enough.
FWIW, his birthday is March 24 — he’ll be 20 in 11 days.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes, gross inexperience (no games above AA) should preclude him.
Very few guys can make that jump, and the odds are Castro ain’t one of the guys who can.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 13, 2010 9:49 AM CST up reply actions
You have to feel
That it will be very motivating for Theriot this season to see the kid in his rear view mirror.
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
Don't most teams put there best prospects at AA? Some teams don't like putting there potential
stars in AAA because you have a bunch has-beens and never-was types that you don’t want to expose your top guys to. I’m just dispting the notion that a player has to spend a fixed number of years at any particular level. If he has the talent and can compete with players at the top level, don’t you want him competing at that level? It’s kind of like the setup in pro football where a guy can’t be considered for the draft until after his third year of competing at the college level. not all players fit into that fixed number and I’m am just asking could Castro show enough in this spring training to realistically make the team promote him to the bigs.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 13, 2010 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
"I’m am just asking could Castro show enough in this spring training to realistically make the team promote him to the bigs."
In a word, no. Hitting well in spring, while never a bad thing, is not proof that a kid is ready for the bigs. Plenty of kids hit a ton in spring and never amounted to much of anything in the bigs. Better to see what Castro can do day in and day out in AAA. Having the talent is not enough. A kid like Castro has to show he can work his way through the ups and downs that are part of a long season. Finally, they really do not need to bring him up right now. Theriot is adequate and Blanco or Barney would be fine backing him up. There really is no reason or need to bring Castro up yet.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 14, 2010 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Start the clock with Interleague play
An earlier commenter mentioned Tony Fernandez. I’d be thrilled if that was the case. Tony Fernandez was hitting .300 when he was 37 years old…
The Cubs are going to start the clock on Castro this year in any event. If the team is good, he’ll be here on September 1 for the playoff push. If the team is bad, he will be here on August 1 (or earlier) after some guys get traded.
What I think they should do is bring him up on June 22 when the Cubs have 6 DH games in a row 3 @ SEA, 3 @CWS and can therefore go with one less pitcher. Have him start the 22nd, 24th (getaway day), 26th (night game before a day game), 28th, and 30th (day game after a night game). Then SEND HIM DOWN NO MATTER WHAT, and reassess the ballclub, and decide if you’re going to bring him back after the ASG, on August 1, or on September 1. In fact, they should announce when he comes up that he’s going down after the June 30 game.
This gives him 5 games (so 16-20 PA) that matter against big league pitching, including a game against the White Sox, and he can go back to AAA and continue to work on things.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
I think there are three questions here.
1) Is it possible he’s ready? And if he is, what does that mean?
Yes – it’s possible, and if he is ready, it means he’s incredibly talented. Being incredibly talented doesn’t mean he’ll have a long, great career, nor does it mean that we’ll see him hit his peak in the next 6 years.
2) Hypothetically speaking, will we be rushing him if we start him in the MLB too soon?
Historically, as the point has been made, it would probably be rushing him. But as MPH73 has also said, Castro’s his own man and doesn’t rise or fall only on how the Cubs treat him. No one knows the answer to this question for sure, but the odds are Castro would benefit from more time in the minors.
3) Realistically speaking, will the Cubs rush him?
It doesn’t look like it. The Cubs’ quick insistence that Castro’s going to AAA is a good sign – assuming you agree that Castro is ready for AAA. Plus, even if there’s an injury, the Cubs have Barney to bring up.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
by DGU on Mar 14, 2010 7:13 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Well said...
…and the only way you know if a guy is truely ready, is to give him a shot in the bigs. It wouldn’t shock me if he got that shot and he did well, and I also wouldn’t be shocked if he showed he was over matched from a hitting standpoint.
The other side of this is starting the clock on him this early, and if I am the Cubs, it is something that does factor in somewhat.
The way I look at it is this, Theriot has shown he is at least someone who is not going to hurt your chances of winning, so why rush the kid who just turned 20. Now, if he is progressing in June and July at AAA (and Theriot is doing mediocre), than you may be compelled to give him his shot.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Mar 14, 2010 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah
You’ve got the arb clock and – for me – you’ve got the question of whether or not one of Fontenot, Baker, or Theriot can be a useful long-term 2B. Might as well let those guys have the playing time to show if they’re a legitimate option.
I know some people have given up on Fontenot, but I’d like to see him take these weeks and step it back up.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
could it be....
that the Cubs are just trying to avoid what happened with the Giants/Lincecum deal and not bring him up too early? or am I comparing 2 differnt things here.
" It’s spring fever - you don’t know what it is you want, but it fairly makes your heart ache, you want it so. "--Mark Twain
If you mean
Should they hold off if they can, because bringing him up earlier starts the clock for him becoming a free agent, then yes, that should always be a consideration for an organization that does not have infinite funds.
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
just started reading about all that this offseason, so its still a bit confusing to me,
but I was thinking could the Cubs be holding off for that reason….dont know enough about bringing up young players-good thing or bad— to make a comment about that.
" It’s spring fever - you don’t know what it is you want, but it fairly makes your heart ache, you want it so. "--Mark Twain
by cooliogirl47 on Mar 14, 2010 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Cubs used to be funny about that
and not being up players before “x” date just to ensure an extra season of cost control
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
The Cubs also used to be really cheap
As noted all over BCB, they have gone too far in the other direction in the last few years. It is just one thing to consider among many.
With the age of the current team, they do have to do what they can to win right away, because they are not yet in good position for many consecutive years of success.
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
being cheap is a big reason they did that with rooks
and it was never a secret why
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
See Kerry Wood
In Spring Training 1998, another’s teams manager or coach said of Kerry Wood going to AAA, “if they have 5 pitchers better than him, they’ll win the World Series.”
"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver
by RiskyBusiness on Mar 14, 2010 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions
That was Terry Collins, then managing the Angels.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I thought it was the Angels, but I wasn't sure of who
"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver
by RiskyBusiness on Mar 14, 2010 11:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Castro and Lincecum? apples and oranges
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

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