Morgan Ensberg defends Bradley
In Morgan Ensberg's blog he defends Bradley and talks about being spit on at Wrigley.
almost 2 years ago
SonnyJ9
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That's seven.
So one idiot spit on Morgan Ensberg and that makes Milton Bradley correct?
I can’t even begin to explain how wrongheaded that is.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Also...
please read the fanshot right above this one, to read a post from a real class act, and learn what it’s like when baseball players treat others with respect, and get the same respect in return.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Is Ensberg not "a real class act," because of his experience?
There are few acts more disrespectful than spitting in someone’s face. I can’t blame Ensberg for feeling the way he does about how he was attacked. Ensberg is also a player that probably played a lot of visiting games at Wrigley so he would have had more than this one experience on which to base his opinion. He told of this incident because it is extremely heinous but it may not be the only thing that leads him to believe what Bradley said was true. It’s also possible that the things Dusty Baker, Corey Patterson, Jacque Jones, LaTroy Hawkins, and even Derrek Lee said give credence to allegations of fan abuse at Wrigley. I bet Shane Victorino and Chad Kreuter can relate to how Ensberg felt as well.
These are not isolated incidents and you don’t hear about this happening as frequently at other ball parks. It’s time Cubs fans admitted there is a problem and do whatever they can to help the organization to eliminate the problem. Of course, if everyone denies a problem exists and makes excuses we shouldn’t expect anything to change.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
Actually, they ARE isolated incidents.
We are talking about a small handful of people out of more than 3 million who attended Cubs games.
Is it wrong? Absolutely. Is it rampant? No.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
right, you mean to tell me none of this ever happens in any other stadium, ever?
why is Wrigley, Chicago and Cubs fans always singled out?
" It’s spring fever - you don’t know what it is you want, but it fairly makes your heart ache, you want it so. "--Mark Twain
by cooliogirl47 on Mar 12, 2010 10:44 AM CST up reply actions
Maybe they are singled out because it's more prevalent at Wrigley.
Why aren’t we hearing about this happening elsewhere with the same frequency? Great question. Do you think media in other cities is ignoring it? Do you think baseball veterans like Baker, Hawkins, Jones and Lee are just ignoring this same behavior elsewhere? There is no question we hear about it happening more frequently at Wrigley so instead of ignoring or excusing it maybe we should own it and try to change it. No way it stops unless Cubs fans want it to and do something to see it does.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
do you really believe in this great melting pot of a country we call the USA,
that the only place this is prevelant is here? if so you are more naive than I.
" It’s spring fever - you don’t know what it is you want, but it fairly makes your heart ache, you want it so. "--Mark Twain
by cooliogirl47 on Mar 12, 2010 10:54 AM CST up reply actions
Please site examples of this many occurances elsewhere.
I’ve never heard of White Sox players complaining of racist fan behavior on a continual basis like I have at Wrigley. Why is that? Are they ignoring it? Maybe it’s not as prevalent. People ought to start considering that maybe there is a problem with obnoxious behavior in general at Wrigley. There have been fan incidents at the Cell but none that were race based harassment.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
See my comment below
The White Sox have had enough PR concerns of their own regarding fans and their actions – they aren’t a good team for you to bring into your arguement.
Please clarify if you are talking specifically about race...
…or about obnoxious behavior in general. Because those are two different discussion. Yes, both should be addressed, but they should be addressed separately.
You cite reports from various black players and coaches about racist remarks, but you also are citing Shane Victorino’s beer shower and responding to Morgan Ensberg’s account of being spat on. While none of this behavior is acceptable, examples of obnoxious behavior happen all over the league.
If you want to talk about obnoxious fan behavior in general, Philadelphia has been infamous for it. Throwing batteries at JD Drew from the 700 Level of the old Vet, being a major example. The Angels dealt with people being beaten to death in the parking lot (last season, I believe). I would say that goes well beyond “obnoxious.”
Please don’t mistake this for a defense of dumping beer on players, spitting on people or stealing the caps off relievers sitting in the opposing bullpen. And there is NO excuse for racial intolerance or racial aggression. I’m simply responding to your request to cite specific examples of poor fan behavior elsewhere around baseball.
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
I can't recall hearing of other cities where this many players have claimed racist fan abuse.
The incidents that happened with Ensberg and Victorino were extremely disrespectful and while not racist show a pattern of inappropriate fan behavior. I don’t think it’s necessarily a separate problem, I think all of it shows that fans believe they can act out and be abusive. I’ve still yet to hear of another team that had this many former players complain of racist attacks. I didn’t hear Jerry Manuel or any former Sox players complain about this behavior. If it was happening elsewhere wouldn’t we be hearing about it?
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 5:02 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks for the clarification.
I maintain that racism and other types of disrespectful behavior are (typically) separate issues. There is some overlap in terms of prevention and consequence, but the acts themselves are separate. For example, sending Milton Bradley racially charged hate mail must be dealt with differently than dumping beer on Shane Victorino. And while both disgusting acts thrive in environments with consequences (places where people believe they can be abusive), one is rectified and prevented more quickly and easily than the other. Furthermore, the degree of abuse is vastly different.
As to other cities’ racial tensions, I can specifically say that players black players in Boston (not limited to the Red Sox) had problems with racist remarks in the recent past. A few articles on the topic were published in the 90’s. I am specifically thinking of Sports Illustrated article on former Celtic Dee Brown in which he talks about hearing racial slurs against in restaurants because he was on a date with a white woman (he’s black). In an older biography on Charles Barkley, he mentions a similar situation happening in Philadelphia. That’s what I can come up with off the top of my head. There may be more, there may not be.
At the risk of opening up another can of worms here, I want to ask a question. I don’t know the answer, I’m not trying to make a point. I’m just asking if anyone has data to back up an answer either way.
Are we actually hearing more about racial issues at Wrigley than in other cities? Or are just hearing more about Wrigley’s racial issues NOW (because the incidents are recent)? Or are we paying more attention to the stories because its our fan base they’re talking about?
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
try living in NY
I lived in NY for 9 years and went to several Yanks games. 1 IL mets game and 2 vs r.sox among them. Been to wrigley. You want to see bad. Listen to fans in NY during games. WOW. also, players can only hear/react with a very small % of fans. Usually those are the more expensive seats and some of those people feel they can do & say what they want because of what they paid for the seat, which is wrong. Been in Atl for 8 yrs now, and although not as bad, there are idiots at all games. Was sitting near cubs bullpen 2 years ago and there were some atl fans telling our bullpen how we suck and razzing about the curse. our guys just ignored them, which tells me, they hear it all the time. shows this stuff happens everywhere.
Why do I think it's more prevalent at Wrigley??
Because only TWO other teams had a higher % to capacity in 2009. Philadelphia and Boston – aren’t those two teams often seen as a) the most racist with b) the worst fans??
When you fill up a stadium to 98, 99, 100% capacity, there are a lot more idiots and a lot more likely that – unfortunate as it is – a mob mentality takes effect. One idiot can start a bad chain of events.
Chicago is the most diverse cities I’ve ever lived in, and I’ve seen less racism here than other places I’ve lived. Does it exist? Yes, it exists everywhere, and it’s very unfortunate. But to think Chicago is more racist than the next because the media has a focus on it is simply incorrect.
I'm not making generalizations on the city as a whole.
I will just say that numerous veteran ball players have said the racist attacks at Wrigley were worse. Baker, Hawkins, and Jones had all been around the league before they were at the Cubs and were shocked by the treatment they received.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
And if you read Ensberg's blog
He clearly states that he loved the fans at Wrigley – that he felt extremely comfortable and had great conversations. One day, ONE idiot did something stupid that burned a terrible memory into his brain.
Does that take away from all of the other experiences he had at Wrigley?? It shouldn’t. Could that one person show up to any other ball park and do the EXACT same thing? Any day of the week.
The reality exists that it did happen at Wrigley though.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 11:30 AM CST up reply actions
And I gaurantee you that you can find one ballplayer
Who has had one bad experience at every single major league park.
No question but we're not talking about one racial incident at Wrigley.
I really don’t understand how people fail to see a pattern here when at least 5 former Cubs have complained and one current player, Derrek Lee confirms he’s heard it. We do not hear about this happening so frequently elsewhere.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 5:05 PM CST up reply actions
Oh I'm sure that's the case...
these guys need to shut up for cryin out loud. Pay me this money and I am not gonna bitch about these stupid things. Racial comments aside, this is stupid shit. I’ve been spit on and didn’t hold a freakin press conference.
And before anyone says it, NO I do not think it is okay to spit on people cuz they are paid a lot, I am just sick of the bitching.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Mar 12, 2010 4:51 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed
It happens everywhere, anywhere, at anytime. Probably more likely to happen in places where there are 3 million in attendance in any given year, but drunk college students reside in more parts than just the north side of Chicago.
''I'm really not a Facebook or Twitter guy. I'm a prime rib and baked potato guy.'' - Sweet Lou
My advice:
Don’t ever go to Lambeau Field. I’ve never had a problem at Wrigley Field, but Lambeau can be more rowdy than you want.
I am a Packers fan, and I went to a Packers-Bears game at Lambeau Field in 2000. I was seriously afraid for my safety. The crowd was in a bad mood, people were yelling insults, it was scary. But then again, I had just turned 16 years old the previous month.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 16, 2010 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
I've never seen any shenanigans
And I’ve sat near Bears fans, Lions fans, 49ers fans.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 23, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
I think that you think Cubs fans are always singled out.
Cubs fans have been under a more scrutiny for racial remarks this past year because that’s what Milton Bradley has been talking about.
But as you’re a Cubs fan you hear a lot more about what other people think about Cubs fans than what they think about other fan bases. Morgan Ensberg was spit on, Shane Victorino had beer dumped on him, etc, and we all know about that. There have been well-known incidents with fans at other stadiums, but as Cubs fans we’re not confronted with them every day.
There have been a handful of high-profile fan interaction issues at White Sox games this decade. Oakland probably has the worst reputation for fan behavior in MLB overall, to the extent that I think one team demanded that extra security personnel be present on the field or they wouldn’t play at the Coliseum. That’s just off the top of my head, and I don’t pay much attention to this sort of story around the league that much.
All I can say to this is "Disco Demolition Night" at the old Comiskey Park.
’Nuff said.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 18, 2010 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Does it have to be rampant before people stop excusing it?
Saying these are just isolated incidents implies it’s not a problem to be addressed. We can certainly expect these types of things to continue as long as fans and the organization look at it as only “isolated” events.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 10:45 AM CST up reply actions
And Al has suggested it is a problem that needs to be addressed
by tightening security in the stands and having clear standards that fans are expected to adhere to. Spitting on players, and using derogatory language violates those standards and should result in that fan being reprimanded by warning or ejection based on the individual offense.
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
Well, I just heard Hendry say Bradley's allegations were "ridiculous."
Seems to me the allegations of racist hate mail and verbal abuse aren’t “ridiculous” and if the organization see it that way there is a huge problem. We also see Cubs fans over and over saying this goes on everywhere, society is racist, blah, blah, blah.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
The allegations that Hendry said were ridiculous
Hendry called Bradley’s implication to ESPN that he received hate mail from within the organization “absolutely ridiculous,” and said Bradley needs to look “in the mirror” and accept responsibility for his poor 2009 numbers.
That has nothing to do with the fans
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
And I thought that was an awful interview
and Bradley was being pressed by the interviewer about something he did want to talk about. I don’t even think Bradley was implying that the mail came from within the organization. The interviewer made that implication and Bradley wanted nothing to do with it.
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
I totally agree with you which is why I thought Hendry's response saying Bradley was "ridiculous" was over the top.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
Once again - Hendry NEVER said Bradley was ridiculous
He said the notion that hate mail was hand delivered by someone inside the organization ridiculous – which is exactly what it is.
But wait
Bradleyt ISN’T ridiculous?
Come on! He is an absolute joke. I said it, not Hendry.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Mar 12, 2010 4:52 PM CST up reply actions
I really wish Hendry would have clarified his response.
When I heard Hendry’s entire response in context it seemed to me he was dismissing Bradley’s complaints of receiving hate mail altogether. I know that Hendry is saying there was no way it came from within the organization. The question would be why would the org pass on hate mail that wasn’t postmarked. Where did it come from? I don’t think anyone in the org sent Bradley the mail but it doesn’t make sense they would pass this on to him when they should have known it would be negative. Let’s also not forget that last fall when Bradley said he was facing hatred on a daily basis, Hendry’s response was, “I’ll not have him insult our great fans.”
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 11:05 AM CST up reply actions
You're right
Hendry should be taking the high road about the mail and the organization should have done more to protect him
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
How would you know ...
… that what is in a sealed envelope left at the ballpark is “negative”?
That’s a patently ridiculous claim.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Considering the way Bradley was booed unmercifully and taunted by fans during games, did they think it would be positive?
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
Are you trying to argue that no one ever sent Bradley words of encouragement?
And that every single thing that happened to Bradley in Chicago was terrible and everyone hated him?
I think you’re grasping at straws. There were even people on BCB who defended him until the end, you think there weren’t others out there as well?
Did I say no one supported him?
Of course all fans didn’t act out towards Bradley. My point would stand that he was obviously not well liked by the majority of fans and it would be reasonable to assume that a lot of fan correspondence would not be positive. I’m sorry but I think the organization made a mistake by passing on hate mail to him.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 5:08 PM CST up reply actions
"Um, Milton....."
“….you’ve been struggling lately and the fans are kind of getting on your case after that 2 out throw to the bleachers, so we’re going to hold your mail for a while. k?”
Is this the type of scenario you’re suggesting? Because that’s kind of ridiculous.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Mar 13, 2010 7:18 AM CST up reply actions
You can't know what's in the mail until you open it...
…which, if done by the Cubs organization, would be a federal offense. Withholding mail is also a federal offense (so long as it was delivered by the postal service).
As for delivering mail that was delivered to the park without the postal service, doesn’t that seem to sew the seeds of distrust?
How do you know the mail is even feedback about baseball? What if someone from Milton’s agent dropped off an envelope? What happens when his agent calls and says, “hey, did you get that endorsement offer?” But Milton never got it because the club, thinking it must be hate mail, never delivered it. Doesn’t that make the club liable? The organization HAS to deliver the mail. Whether or not it gets opened is up to the addressee.
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
Really?
If you send a letter to a major celebrity, do you think that celebrity opens and reads that mail? No, they don’t. It is opened and pre-screened by studio employees or agents or personal assistants. It should be no different for baseball players. You can leave it up to the players to open them if they wish, but as an organization I would certainly offer to open and screen all mail sent to the player in care of the Cubs.
As for endorsement offers, any real offers for that kind of stuff would go to the player’s agent or management team. It would not be sent to him directly. And even if it were, it wouldn’t be sent to the Chicago Cubs offices, but to his business or home address. And why would an agent or one of his employees just leave an envelope for the player at the ballpark? Why wouldn’t they meet with the player?
And while the Cubs are screening the mail, anything that is considered to be hate mail should be sent to the proper authorities for prosecution.
A lot of players read their mail without screening it
It is kind of old school. I don’t think many baseball players have “personal assistants”. They may well have people who work for them or with their agent ,but not the level of PA who does daily chores. I would think once a player receives any real hate mail they would ask a club or agent to screen it. If Mr. Ensberg is reading this he can comment on how common it would be for a player to open their own mail.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Mar 13, 2010 6:16 PM CST up reply actions
Hate mail should be prosecuted, yes.
Agree with you on that one 100%. Hate crimes should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But I disagree that the club has an obligation to screen players’ mail.
First of all, celebrities who have their mail opened by other sources either CHOOSE to do so or are free to prosecute people who open their mail without permission. (Which means that celebrities can also CHOOSE not to bother prosecuting.) If you wish to argue this point further, I would refer you to the federal laws concerning the US Postal Service. You can verify the info there. (And find that it is, in fact, illegal to open someone else’s postmarked mail unless you are their guardian or have power of attorney.)
Secondly, the scenarios I presented were hypothetical. For example, if somebody wants an athlete to endorse a product they WOULD send the offer to the agent, but the player must sign the agreement, too. So maybe the agent sends a copy of the contract via courier to Milton at the ballpark because the Cubs have a day game. It’s a hypothetical. I’m suggesting that there are possibilities that mail delivered to the ballpark might not ALL be hate mail, not that all mail coming to the ballpark is endorsement offers.
We’ve gone waaaay off topic now if we’re into the regulations of the US Postal Service.
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
And I wrote
that the Cubs should offer the service. I didn’t say that the Cubs should open their mail without the permission of the addressees. The issue of hate mail coming to Wrigley has gotten a lot of play since Dusty was the manager and it doesn’t seem that the organization has taken any steps to address the problem.
My misinterpretation, then.
I must have missed your suggestion. Missing the forest for the trees, I guess.
At the very least, the organization or a player’s agent should be able to recommend a local agency to do this.
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
Un-postmarked and un-addressed "mail" is not mail
therefore, no federal offense.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
You think the nut jobs just drop it off at the park?
I doubt it. Too many security cameras.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Mar 13, 2010 6:18 PM CST up reply actions
Well, he said some of the hate mail
had no address and was not postmarked. I’m not speculating on where it came from. But the comment above was that opening his mail is a federal offense. Well, unpostmarked mail is not “mail”.
If that shows up and no one knows where it comes from and it just says “Milton Bradley”, then you might want to look into it.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
hence "so long as it was delivered by the postal service."
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
So what are you going to do????
Give every fan that enters into Wrigley a racism test and only let in the people who pass?
Wrigley gets 3 million or so visitors a year. 1% of that would be 30K people.
Do you think that it’s beyond the realm of possibility that 1% of the people that go to Cubs games are racist jerks? Of that 1%, is it out of the realm of possibility that half of them, or 15K people would drink enough while at the game or bars close by to give them the liquid courage to voice their racist thoughts?
I honestly believe that some black players have been the target of racism in Chicago while playing at Wrigley Field. However, I doubt that even MB got 15K hate letters.
And if he did get that many, that’s 1 half of 1 percent of all fans that will visit Wrigley in a year.
So, 99.5% + of fans that visit Wrigley are not participating in espousing racial slurs.
While I agree that any amount of racism is too much, I can’t wave a magic wand and all the sudden make racist jerks not be racist jerks.
And yes, .5% of anything is an isolated incident. And the real average is likely a lot lower than that.
Instead of looking at percentages, what if you looked at # of incidents?
How many incidents would it take to move it beyond “isolated”? Whether it’s MB, Jones, or any other player – I don’t think they look at it based on percentages. It’s the number of times they hear something that sticks in their minds.
My point is when you’re talking really big numbers like 3 million, saying it’s 99.5% racist free is not really comforting when you do the math – as you showed above. And go ahead and drop it even lower to get whatever you think the real average would be. 0.1% is 3,000 incidents. Considering we’re only talking about 81 games, that’s still a lot.
Heck drop it down another magnitude of ten. That’s still 300 and that’s still a lot.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Every trend is made up of a series of isolated incidents
Sure, the vast majority of Cubs fans aren’t jerks, just like the vast majority of Phillies fans are probably nice people, the vast majority of British soccer fans aren’t hooligans, and the vast majority of Oregon football players make good decisions.
by Wreckard on Mar 12, 2010 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
How many "isolated" incidents need to happen before you deem it a pattern?
Because there have been a few too many incidents to call them all isolated, IMO.
Brad Miller is god.
This is a ridiculous statement
please read the fanshot right above this one, to read a post from a real class act, and learn what it’s like when baseball players treat others with respect, and get the same respect in return.
Was Jacques Jones disrespectful? Shane Victorino? Dusty Baker? All of the nice guys who were bad at baseball who got booed out of town?
by Wreckard on Mar 12, 2010 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I agree, Al, you were off base on that comment.
From what I’ve heard of Ensberg, he’s nothing but a great guy who had one bad incident at Wrigley.
If that's the case...
… why did he feel like he had to write about it as if it represented all Cubs fans, and to defend the indefensible Bradley?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Al.......
I think you’re misinterpreting Ensberg’s comments as I stated below. He said he believes Bradley and is “in his corner”…….I don’t think you can draw definitive conclusions of what “in his corner” means. He made no statements in the article that he supports, defends or understands Milton’s behavior. His statements were clearly about believing Bradley’s claims.
Here's the exact verbage........
So when Milton says that he was called a "derogatory comment". I believe him. When he says his family was threatened, I believe him. Every fan isn’t a racist, just like every fan doesn’t spit on players. But based on my experience at Wrigley, I believe him.
Final Thought
Milton and I were teammates for 2 months with the Padres. He has a HUGE heart and was a great teammate. He just wants to have someone in his corner. I’ll be that guy Milton
Well that makes one...can we be done with MB?
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Mar 12, 2010 4:55 PM CST up reply actions
I didnt take Ensberg's comment like that
I think he was simply saying, even as much as he loved Wrigley, something terrible happened to him there. Because of that, he doesn’t discount the fact that Bradley could have had something terrible happen to him, as well.
Where did he imply that it represented ALL Cubs fans?
I don’t think anybody’s that stupid, but you have to be naive to believe that there isn’t a percentage of Cubs fans that regularly attend Wrigley that do dumb shit like this.
Brad Miller is god.
It would be one thing if we were rehashing what clothes Bradley wears
but now that Bradley has brought up the specter of racism in Chicago, I think it bears long, and numerous discussion.
Is there racism in Chicago? Of course there is. There isn’t a town or village in this country where racism doesn’t exist somewhere. Does that mean that racism is prevalent in Chicago? Of course not. Nor does Morgan Ensberg supposedly getting spit on prove that all Cubs fans are worthless tools. It proves there is one, and only one worthless tool.
Keep in mind, Morgan played for a Cubs rival. That will color your thinking. I went to a small college here in Nebraska, and while I thoroughly enjoyed my time at the college, the small town it was located in was a……….dump. To this day, when I hear a negative story about that town, I’m more apt to believe it. In short, our personal experiences color our opinions, and Morgan’s personal experiences make him more likely to believe that racism is rampant in Chicago. Doesn’t make it true.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Mar 12, 2010 9:06 AM CST up reply actions
Al.......
When you say correct, what exactly do you mean? I believe Milton too-I’m sure there were fans who “did stuff” from the bleachers, but that doesn’t excuse how we acted nor how he played. Don’t believe Ensberg said that-with all due respect-I think you’re jumping to conclusions. All he said was that he believes Bradley and he’s in his corner-you’re interpreting “in his corner” to support his actions, whereas I’m not sure that’s what Ensberg meant. He may have just meant he believes Bradley. Why don’t you post a comment and ask ME to clarify?
The Ensberg...
…spitting incident is something that some ass hole does when they get liquored up.
Does this happen in other sporting venues? You bet your ass it does. Does it happen more often at Wrigley? I have no idea whether it does or not.
It also shows that bad suff happens to players who aren’t african american as well and I’d bet that is also true in most other sporting venues.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
So just because bad things happen in other sporting venues, that means it's okay for it to happen at Wrigley?
Of course pretty much everything that happens at other baseball stadiums happens here too (except World Series games), but that doesn’t make it any less disgusting.
Brad Miller is god.
Nobody's saying that.
The implication from all posts of this nature is, however, that it ONLY happens at Wrigley, which is decidedly not true.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
From someone who lives in Red Sox country,
There are incidents almost every year involving fans at Fenway Park.
A bullpen incident in the 2003 ALCS.
An incident involving a fan throwing items at Gary Sheffield.
The first event I linked to resulted in legal charges, and in the second one, the Red Sox penalized the fan who started the altercation.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 19, 2010 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
search Bonds playing in Los Angeles
they were all over him in ways that should not only be frowned upon, but in some cases illegal
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
Wouldn't surprise me.
I also remember someone throwing a syringe at him in a game at San Diego.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 20, 2010 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Yankee fans were all over him when SF played in NY
as well, I remember that making the news
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
how ironic
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Mar 21, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Here's a good article on Ensberg you may not have seen
that also gives us a different take on Aaron Miles: http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?section=magazine&id=3657182
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
Well, when Scott Spiezio steps up to defend him.....
…. then maybe I’ll really take a second look.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
So if getting spit on at Wrigley makes you defend Bradley...
…then Shane Victorino should be buying him a house or car or something…
He forgot a period at the end of his last sentence.
That is all.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Mar 12, 2010 11:20 AM CST via mobile reply actions
I've been to a lot of stadiums
and I’ve seen (or heard of) bad things happening at a lot of them. I don’t take those isolated incidents to be representative of the fan base, and I don’t know why Ensberg would. Especially because I doubt Ensberg has been a victim of the alleged systemic “Wrigley wracists.”
How about this?
How about we stop arguing about whether racism is a bigger problem at Wrigley versus any other park, in Chicago versus any other town or against Bradley versus any other player?
If you see someone hurling racial epithets in Wrigley, call security. If you see someone doing it outside of Wrigley, call the management, call the police or call them out depending on what you feel is appropriate.
Getting defensive about this is stupid. It makes you look like an apologist at worst and ignorant at best. So what if Bradley’s claims are exaggerated or even fabricated? If it gets people to examine the issue closer and enact positive change, it’s a good thing. Even if it started with the wild-eyed claims of the “piece of shit” who single-handedly ruined the Cubs’ lock on a World Series title last year*.
*Hyperbole for effect.
by redward on Mar 12, 2010 1:23 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Reclaiming Wrigley
There’s been a lot of bad press about various fan incidents at Wrigley Field recently. There’s been beer dumping on Shane Victorino, reports of spitting on opponents, and, of course, the various accusations of slurs being hurled at minority players. It’s time to reclaim Wrigley Field.
When that kid dumped beer on Shane Victorino, security came looking for the kid. They got the wrong guy. But, from what the TV cameras showed (and I know that’s not the whole picture), nobody tried to stop the jacka** who actually threw the beer from leaving the scene. Apparently, the kid eventually turned himself in, but too often we as fellow fans let people get away with this crap. That’s why there are frequent repeat offenses: people think they can get away with it.
If we want this stuff ($%^#) to stop, we’ve got to be in the front line of the solution. There are a lot of Cub fans out there who have done and are willing to do the right thing. I’m not suggesting we start snitching people out for cursing, nor am I advocating vigilante justice, but if somebody’s hurling slurs at a player (or anything else for that matter), something has to be done. Few of us go to a game alone. Send somebody to report the incident to security while the rest of the group keeps an eye on the offender. When security comes, start the “throw them out” chant. Let the players know that one or two a-holes don’t speak for the entire fan base.
There’s more to it than this, but that’s how we’ll start to get our ballpark back.
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
by Phubbies on Mar 12, 2010 2:06 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Even if it doesn't do any good right away, it may help in the long run
A couple years ago I went to an early season game with my friend and his son. My son got sick and wasn’t able to attend. I left them to go to a ticket vendor and sell my unused seat, and ran into one of the guys selling the “Horry Cow” t-shirt. I yelled at him to “Get this #)$(^ out of Wrigley” and got between him and the people he was trying to sell to, just for a second. His only response was, “The guy who prints these things is Korean.” As if the Korean and Japanese people haven’t had their differences over the centuries. Anyway, I doubt it did much good, but eventually you stopped seeing those shirts sold.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
I honestly don't see Cub fans as particularly hostile or dangerous
A few years ago I heard John Kruk say he could not rank the Cub fans at the top because they were NOT intimidating enough. He said in Philly, New York and Boston at least, the fans made visiting players believe they were in a hostile place. Cub fans he said never did that and he recounted sitting on the bench in the bullpen and being offered a brownie
by the fan sitting behind him ( I suppose it could have had more than chocolate in it). There are bad & nasty fans at every park, but I don’t think Wrigley has more than average and compared to parks that have as many fans probably less.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
Now, here is a place where Jessica & I are in total agreement.
Yes, there are nasty fans in every ballpark, including Wrigley. But that doesn’t make us all bad people, and there are problems in other places, too — we just don’t hear about them as much because we are not as tuned in to the day-to-day of other teams as we are to the Cubs.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
A view from a Cards fan
Before you blast me, let me say a few things. During the summer months I take my son around the US to different baseball stadiums. We go to stadiums to see the stadium and get a good game in. We have been to Wrigley many many times (in our Cards attire) and have not witnessed, or been a victim of fans. Most of the time we see the Cubs vs Brewers or Pirates but never the Cards. I think it takes away from the experience. On occasion (at every park) someone will yell something inappropriate but that will happen when you have drinking, 90 degree weather and agitated fans.
The smaller the crowd the less likely you are to witness any bad behavior. In Pittsburg obnoxious fans are very very easy to see and they get run out fast. In Boston however, the fans have an easier time blending in or denying the act. I have only seen 2 games in Fenway, I wore my cards jersey the 1st but not the 2nd, same holds true in Philly.
I guess my point is Chitown fans are better (more polite?) than most of the East coast teams I have visited. My worst experience was at old Busch but I have seen hundreds of games there.
I wish you (and the Cubs) all the best this season. Baseball is always better when the Cards and Cubs are battling for a playoff spot.
Almost forgot, Wrigley (and its fans) are 10,000x better than US Cellular (and its fans). That is one place I won’t attend another game.
thanks for that...we needed it this week. Sounds like alot of fun what you and your son do....
all the best to you and yours.
" It’s spring fever - you don’t know what it is you want, but it fairly makes your heart ache, you want it so. "--Mark Twain
by cooliogirl47 on Mar 12, 2010 6:31 PM CST up reply actions
Almost forgot, Wrigley (and its fans) are 10,000x better than US Cellular (and its fans). That is one place I won’t attend another game.
has crawdad ever attacked a noncubs fan?
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Mar 12, 2010 6:37 PM CST up reply actions
As a Cards fan, how many former players or coaches have you heard complain about racist taunts and/or hate mail they received from Cards fans?
The problem is at least 5 former Cubs have claimed they’ve been treated this way in their home park over the last couple of years. I don’t hear about Cards players receiving racist taunts at Busch. It’s been my perception that St. Louis is a more racially divided city than Chicago but you don’t hear about baseball players being given a rough ride there because of race. As a Cards fan have you observed this type of behavior at Busch?
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 6:46 PM CST up reply actions
god, give it a rest
" It’s spring fever - you don’t know what it is you want, but it fairly makes your heart ache, you want it so. "--Mark Twain
by cooliogirl47 on Mar 12, 2010 6:52 PM CST up reply actions
I was asking a question of a fan of another team to get a different perspective.
I wasn’t directing my question to you so kindly keep your suggestions to yourself. If you don’t want to read questions or comments in this thread you can always go elsewhere.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 6:55 PM CST up reply actions
pretty touchy...
The same could easily be directed towards you. I don’t recall anyone soliciting your opinion on this issue.
I didn't tell anyone to "give it a rest"
Sorry I thought the point of being able to comment was to voice our opinions. I wasn’t being personally disrespectful to anyone else and didn’t appreciate the suggestion. It was meant to be insulting and that’s exactly how I took it. If you notice I didn’t bother to respond with a personal attack.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 7:05 PM CST up reply actions
Worst I have ever seen
was Gary Templeton. It was very very nasty. We also had the infamous “Zambrana mows my lawn.” bullshit. The fans don’t boo to many Redbirds but opposing players are booed frequently.
Some in the press argued that the Cards front office wasn’t much on African American due to the low number on the teams. I am not sure if I buy the argument since MLB has maybe 10%?
Sorry the link is so long, but here’s a good read:
Thanks for your feed back.
If it makes you feel any better they have a Pujols mows my lawn shirt being sold outside Wrigley.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 7:09 PM CST up reply actions
I know what you meant, but you should have read that before posting...
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2010 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
I'd never heard that story about Jackie Robinson. That's a great story.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 12, 2010 7:13 PM CST up reply actions
That's an excellent read, all right.
I think it gives a great perspective on where we were, and how far we’ve come — not that we don’t still have a way to go.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You've been to US Cellular?
I can agree with you about Red Sox fans, most of them are like that even without alcohol.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 14, 2010 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Go sit in the Pavilion at Dodger Stadium (or the cheap seats)
Wearing a Soto jersey and being quiet. 98% of the patrons will ask questions and have good natured insults. Many even shared their booze with us (prior to the opening of the all-you-can-eat section and reintroduction of beer). Fun times.
Those other 2%… God damn they make me hate Dodger Stadium. 1% are just a-holes, the other 1% are terrifying when you have family and loved ones around that cannot defend themselves as well as someone of my size.
I spend top-dollar on tickets to Dodger Stadium now, because that is where the Cubs fans and NON-DISRESPECTFUL Dodger fans sit. I’m not in college any more, I don’t want to harass people or be harassed.
……That may have been OT, but I feel like an angry old man.
"You’re playing a baseball game. You’re not playing Tiddlywinks. There is competition, for God’s sake."— Lou Piniella
I think you can find that 2%... or maybe less...
… at any ballpark or arena. It’s really sad.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Exactly.
I love baseball. LOVE it. But I find it hard to go to MLB games anymore (at least Cubs away games… which are really my only choice outside of flying back to Chicago) because I don’t like being threatened for sitting quietly and watching.
I’d go to more MiLB games, but they’re hard to find around here.
I was spit on once by a fan as a player (and also once by a player as a fan). It is the most incredibly disrespectful thing you can do, not to mention an assault charge waiting to happen.
"You’re playing a baseball game. You’re not playing Tiddlywinks. There is competition, for God’s sake."— Lou Piniella
As a player?
Was this college? Pro? Where? (You can give general locations if you don’t want to be specific.)
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
College - North Carolina
Bitter rivalry is no excuse for a goober to the neck.
Though, to be fair, when I was the fan and got spit on by the player, we were heading into dangerous verbal territory regarding his criminal record… but still.
"You’re playing a baseball game. You’re not playing Tiddlywinks. There is competition, for God’s sake."— Lou Piniella
You're right about the spitting.
No excuse for that. Ever.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
My wife and I won't go to Dodger Stadium any more
Too many frustrated Raider fans. Too many fights, too many assholes, bad part of town. Wrigley’s neighborhood is creme de la creme compared to what’s right outside Dodger Stadium.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
What?
You don’t like driving up Sunset or Alvarado and seeing the shoes on the powerlines, or upside down shopping carts full of plastic bags, or people pissing on light posts that don’t actually have lights? ;)
I live about 10 miles due north, and I thank my senses every day for not going for the cheaper rent.
"You’re playing a baseball game. You’re not playing Tiddlywinks. There is competition, for God’s sake."— Lou Piniella
Huh?
I had no problems whatsoever at Dodger Stadium last August. Each stadium has its group of arse-holes, but I largely avoided them in LA.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 14, 2010 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions
It just occured to me....
… who the hell would even be reading Morgan Ensberg’s blog to know what he said?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
I don't know, but...
… I will tell you that Morgan Ensberg emailed me about this. He asked some thoughtful questions, I answered and invited him to sign up for an account here.
He’s already done so, and I also invited him to post about this topic if he’d like. I hope we hear from him soon.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Mar 12, 2010 8:06 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Al..........
I’m glad ME emailed you about this. I think you misinterpreted his position. I don’t think he supported Bradley’s position or his actions. I think he merely stated he believes Bradley. You made some pretty gross misinterpretations about ME’s blog in previous comments.
why did he feel like he had to write about it as if it represented all Cubs fans, and to defend the indefensible Bradley?
I've had another email from him.
I hope he’ll post here. I’m going to encourage it; you may be right. It would be good to have a discussion with someone who’s been on the inside of major league baseball.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Totally Agree............
Alot of the discussions lately have been a result of interpretations of comments made. Would be nice to really understand what was meant.
I hope people are respectful if we do hear from him
Most will be, but there is a fringe of “*$#&^ you, you’re not a Cub” crowd.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2010 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
That would be great if he joined.
I would like to be able to ask him some questions about baseball.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 14, 2010 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Ensberg actually does respond to comments on his blog.
If you look through the comments after his post on Bradley, Ensberg provided a lot of thoughtful responses to commenters. It seems as if he really wants to be interactive with his readers.
I tried to attach a link to his blog but it didn’t work. His blog is morganensberg(dot)wordpress(dot)com
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Mar 14, 2010 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Okay, thanks.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 14, 2010 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions
To be honest, it's gained quite a following already.
I’ve enjoyed what I’ve read so far, and if he keeps it up with any regularity it could really take off.
by owllover711 on Mar 24, 2010 12:14 AM CDT up reply actions
For anyone who rembembers the play Bleacher Bums
The only scene I really liked and was accurate for Wrigley in that era was when the bleacher fan who has a rather extensive dossier on the Cardinals LF, gets him to climb the vines. All I can say is " Ruthie’s got the.. (fans clap hands)". It was a different era when the fans were nasty but they knew their stuff about players. ( trust me you have to see the whole scene)
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
Another MB post. SIGH.
Can we just put this topic away already? Wherever MB has been, he has been a divisive presence. It has happened in teams he played on in the past, and it has happened here in Chicago. If you need proof, I suggest you look at the argument in the “Jim Hendry Fires Back” thread.
I, personally, would like it if we forgot about him. He is no longer a Cub, so, unless we play the team he is on, we should not be talking about him. Fewer threads about him result in fewer arguments like the one in the thread I mentioned.
Is it any wonder why the “Biggest Thread Fight” in Cubbie-Tim’s poll was voted as “Anything Involving Milton Bradley”? The biggest fights all occurred in threads in which MB was mentioned front-and-center. And so far, that has sadly been the case this year, too.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 14, 2010 12:45 PM CDT reply actions
I agree that MB brings out the biggest arguments.
However, I noticed a lot of other dumb arguments going on all across the board as well. It seems like it’s been ever since spring training started. Lots more people are back and posting again and a few seem rather touchy. Hoping it’s just that we are all anxious for the season to start or that it’s cabin fever or something.
"Chicago Cubs baseball is on the air."-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Mar 15, 2010 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions
I hope so too.
I miss regular season baseball.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 15, 2010 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I just want to say
that this new Morgan Ensberg blog is excellent. Him going over the Astros/Cardinals game in 2005 when Pujols went to Oklahoma off of Brad Lidge is fascinating, especially on how he was out of position on the Eckstein single that led to it.
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