The "Cubs Factor" Of The Cactus League
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Mar 16, 2010 12:53 PM CDT
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Unfortunately, I cannot make the trip to the Valley Of The Sun this season. But, friends of mine are keeping me posted about their Cactus League experience this spring.
An individual who is spending this week in the Phoenix area is mainly there to attend Padres and Angels games. Monday's Angels/Dodgers game was sold out -- and the Padres game was at night. So, she asked me before she left -- "I want to see a game on the west side, near I-10 as I come into town, so where should I go?"
I suggested she go to Goodyear or Maryvale. I recommended Maryvale -- since the Brewers don't draw well, and there are always plenty of good seats, especially on weekdays. I once went to a weekday Padres/Brewers game a few years back -- it drew about 3K, and from watching the attendance figures, crowds are a bit better now that the team is more competitive -- but still, the Crew only sells out when the Cubs are the opposition.
So, she decides to go to Maryvale as she arrives in PHX, and will see the Padres that evening. She calls me at work and says: " Hey!! What's up with this?? The game in Maryvale is just about sold out!!"
I talk to her later in the day. I've forgotten the Cubs are in Tucson. I ask her: "By any chance, did you see more people dressed in Cubs gear at that game than you might expect?" After pausing..she says..."You know....I did."
It's anecdotal, I know....but I believe this is the "Cubs Factor" at work. I'd wager a number of elements came together for that unusual crowd at Maryvale on a weekday. But foremost -- I'm going to speculate many Cubs fans did NOT want to make that drive down south. Obviously, many did. But I have never made that trip. If I was in town -- I'd attend another game.
7 games in the Cactus League yesterday, 1 was a sell-out in Tempe, 2 are in Tucson with one game featuring the best draw in the Cactus League. So, Cubs fans who didn't drive south could have seen the Sox/KC in Glendale. I'd say....that wasn't the top choice. Neither was the Texas/Giants game in Surprise, or A's/Reds in Goodyear. Those would be the longest drives, if you make the assumption most Cubs fans who visit stay on the east side of town. (And, the Pads took on the Tribe at night in Peoria. Not a big deal for Cubs fans.)
Maryvale's rep for being an easy ticket -- and they might have been running a promotion, since that's always a factor at that facility -- and that the fact that the Brewers are an obvious rival to the Cubs......I'm guessing that "The Cubs Factor" turned that routine Cactus League into BIG dollars for Milwaukee. I'm sure the 'Crew loved it. (And, I assume locals know that Maryvale is usually a quiet location to catch a game.
Teams that want to disregard the Cubs -- and their fans -- spending their money outside of Cubs games better think again. The Cactus League would lose, big time -- if the team left for Florida.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Great Story
And a great point. I think these people that are arguing against the “Cub Factor” would like to believe that it isn’t the case. True, Spring Training will go on with or without the Cubs in Arizona. But to say that it wouldn’t be greatly financially affected is incorrect.
"...but you the living, you're stuck here with the Cubs. So it is ME who feels sorry for you." - Steve Goodman, "A Dying Cub Fan's Last Request"
Nobody is arguing against the "Cubs Factor"
it’s the magnitude of it that is in dispute.
I read the Elliot Pollack report that estimated the “Cubs Factor” to be 22%, and while I respect Elliot Pollack, their methodology was flawed. I think it is closer to 15%. The $138M number is pure fiction, no matter how you slice it.
If anyone is interested in reading a detailed discussion of the numbers, how they were arrived at and what they mean, you can read a thread about it over on AZ Snakepit.
No Thanks...
I tend to focus on my own team and not patrol the boards of another should a topic that I’ve beaten into the ground be brought up.
"...but you the living, you're stuck here with the Cubs. So it is ME who feels sorry for you." - Steve Goodman, "A Dying Cub Fan's Last Request"
by HoSs. on Mar 16, 2010 10:22 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Ehh
If he lives in an area that would be affected financially by the creation of a new Cubs facility, I don’t have a problem with him debating and trying to defend his dollars from new taxation by providing counterpoints to some of the information used to defend the new facility.
I’m not saying I necessarily agree with him, but his dollars are more important than your desire to not hear a dissenting viewpoint from a fan of another team.
This is always the case
whenever I post something on here that rubs somebody the wrong way, I always get “why don’t you go away, you aren’t even a Cubs fan”. Well, here’s the deal…I consider Al and a couple of other regulars on here friends and Al has made it clear that baseball fans are welcome here whether they are Cubs fans or not. The blog is part of SBNation, not CubsNation.
So to quote another, those that don’t like my posts can ignore them, or better yet, pound sand.
I'm tempted to use an old line
“Don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up”.
But, I will refrain.
Nice Try
Not only is your story anecdotal, it is also not accurate. The attendance in Maryvale yesterday was 6,700. Hardly a sellout and not much different from the previous Brewers home game, which was on Saturday when the Cubs were playing at Hohokam.
The D’Backs had standing room only on Saturday vs the Dodgers in Tucson, and I’m sure the Cubs fans had nothing to do with that. The Giants have had the biggest crowds in the Cactus League so far this year in Scottsdale (several sellouts), and all of those games have been when the Cubs were also playing in the valley, so no Cubs factor there.
So, basically your theory doesn’t hold water.
Attendance at Spring Training games is affected mainly by two things…if the game is on a weekend, and if the weather is good. The games this past weekend saw a nice bump because the weather was good. It is likely that the games this week will draw well because this is Spring Break week for many in AZ.
A lot of people going to ST games are locals, and their decision to take in a game has to do with the weather and work schedules. Not everyone is from out of town, and those that are are not all from Chicago, despite reports to the contrary.
You know
You bring many fine points to the table, and I suspect that once this whole Cubs ST in Arizona thing blows over we will see the phenomenon known as the “azjazzman posting factor” experience a decline by as much as 22%.
FWIW the percentage I have given is probably inaccurate.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
I do like numbers
which is interesting, because I am a very strong advocate of the thinking that you cannot account for a lot of what goes into winning or losing baseball games with statistics.
It’s not that I don’t appreciate the power of statistics, or that I don’t understand their application, it’s that there are too many things in baseball that affect the outcome that simply cannot be measured reliably.
I agree
You know I just like giving you a little grief, because 1) Your probably in the best position to know details surrounding the Cubs in Mesa issue, and 2) you’ve been very prolific in comments regarding misinformation. Sorry If I come off like the jerk in the peanut gallery, you have helped me understand the different perspectives on the issue(s).
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
Oh, I didn't take it that way at all
I’ve remarked myself about my blizzard of posts on Cubs in Mesa. And I respect the opinions of those, like yourself, who have actually been to Cubs Spring Training.
Well azjazz
Thanks for being the ‘all knowing’ expert.
I am relating what my friend was told by the Maryvale Box office. They were saying "game sold out.’ She could only secure a field spot.
I’m talking about ONE day, one game. I’m not talking about anything else but one damn day.
Sorry I didn’t clear my post through you first.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Mar 16, 2010 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions
No need to get snarky SD Jazz
The fact is the official attendance was 6700 for the game, which is far from a sellout, no matter what your friend was told.
While that may be true...
… I think the anecdotal evidence that an individual was told the game was “sold out” is valid. Remember, we’ve heard attendance figures at Tempe the last few days (including vs. the Cubs on Sunday) that appeared to be far lower than the number of people at the game.
Incidentally, here are the attendance figures for the Brewers’ six home games so far this spring at Maryvale:
4186, 3034, 4015, 7968, 5778, 6763.
Which one of those featured the Cubs as a visitor? You get one guess.
And the 6763 — vs. Cleveland, not a marquee opponent on a Monday — probably DID include a large number of Cubs fans. FWIW, official seating capacity at Maryvale is 7,000 — so 6,763 could indeed be a “sellout”, if a few hundred tickets were given away as freebies for whatever reason.
Your comment below:
The most accurate number is that the Cubs are the equivalent of two average Cactus League teams. No more, no less.
would appear to me to be proof of SDSJM’s point, which is that the Cubs are extremely important to the future of the Cactus League.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Correction
The capacity of Maryvale is 10,000. So 6700 is about 2/3rds full. There is NO reason to assume that the attendance figure is not accurate.
The fact that the attendance, even on a Monday (the first day of Spring Break for many in the valley) was only 1,000 more than the previous home game, is pretty clear evidence that it was well within an expected range…and that there was no significant Cubs “bump”. The fact that the D’Backs sold out in Tucson on saturday and the Giants have sold out several times this spring shows that interest is up throughout the Cactus League…independent of the Cubs.
Where did you find the capacity of Maryvale to be 10,000?
Every source I found listed it as 7,000.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Googling has given me some less than consistent figures
http://www.cactusleague.com/t_brewers.php says 10,000
http://www.springtrainingonline.com/teams/milwaukee-brewers.htm says 8,000
Elsewhere I see 7,000 seats and 1,000 lawn “spots”
every source says 7,000
permanent seats. The variation is because, if you look at the seating chart, there are really four distinct lawn seating areas and they have the potential of holding about 3,000 people. Lawn seating is kind of an imprecise method, but the City of Phoenix, who own Maryvale Ball Park, lists the seating capacity at 10,000.
BTW
The attendance at Maryvale was 9,994 yesterday, so I guess that puts this to rest.
And no, those were NOT all Cubs fans that could not get tickets to Camelback Ranch.
I'm guessing there were quite a few Angels fans at that game.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
sounds just like they did at HoHoKam
10k seats + 2,575 on the berm for a total of 12,575. At least that’s the last stated set of numbers I remember seeing.
Just win the next game...!
There is also
No reason to assume that the author’s contact lied about being told the game was sold out.
"...but you the living, you're stuck here with the Cubs. So it is ME who feels sorry for you." - Steve Goodman, "A Dying Cub Fan's Last Request"
by HoSs. on Mar 16, 2010 10:24 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Nobody said anybody lied
but since the official attendance figure is based on a tried and true method of counting and the verbal statement could be based on anything, including possibly mishearing something they had been told, which one is more credible, and more importantly, why do I even have to point this out to you?
Saying that the Cubs
are the equivalent of two average Cactus League teams, when they are 1 of 15 teams, means the Cubs represent about 14%… which is what I have been saying all along.
Important? Yes. But, not ’the engine that drives the Cactus League" or any of the other nonsense I have read on here. 14% is not driving anything.
Just curious - do you not ever see snarkiness in your posts?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Sure, once in awhile
but mosly I try to stick to known facts. Some may take offense at being corrected, but that is their issue, not mine.
its not being corrected
but the manner of correction that gets many here with your posts about ST in AZ
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
Nice Try
The definitions of snarky that I have pulled up online do not include any consideration about whether the snarky one is sticking to known facts. However, saying “nice try” does seem to imply that the person that you are responding to is really trying to get away with something.
I agree with madcow256’s comment above that you do have a stake in this argument, so this is not one of your usual, bashing troll visits to this board.
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
What stake do I have in this argument
or any other? San Diego Smooth Jazz Man has repeatedly made posts about Spring Training in Arizona or just Arizona in general that are factually incorrect or based on opinions or impressions that are not supportable in anyway. To be honest, I get tired of correcting this stuff. If that comes across by my saying “Nice Try”, I think that is a more benign way of saying “Wrong Again!” which is what is really the case.
So, I do think sticking to facts as opposed to opinions or making snarky personal comments is the preferable method and the one that I intend to continue to use.
BTW
the figure that has been thrown around about the “Cubs Factor” is 22%. In other words, Cubs fans account for 22% (supposedly) of total Cactus League attendance. I did some analysis of the numbers, using the results from a comprehensive survey done a couple of years ago by the League and I concluded the number was more like 16%. It is even less now, since three more teams have joined the league since the survey was done. It is probably more like 13-14% now. The most accurate number is that the Cubs are the equivalent of two average Cactus League teams. No more, no less.
I wish our middle infield was made up of two average Cactus Leage players.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 16, 2010 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Why not go for some Cactus League legends?
Al’s article on ST memories mentioned that Scott McClain was in Cubs camp. Maybe he can be converted to a second baseman.
To put a coda on this
My friend tried to buy a SEAT. She got there at game time. There were NO MORE SEATS FOR SALE at the Maryvale box office. She bought a grass ticket instead.
Does this help? I’m not sure how I can explain her experience any further, nor does it need any more comment than what I have explained already.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Mar 16, 2010 11:22 PM CDT reply actions
Does this help?
There were 6700 tickets sold for that game. There were people on the lawn, as your friend was not the only person sitting out there. There are 7,000 grandstand seats. That means there were tickets for grandstand seats that were not sold.
Can you accept the fact that either your friend was either misinformed or misunderstood?
No.
She couldn’t buy a SEAT at the ticket window at game time. I do not know how I can explain this you any further.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Mar 19, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
JUST RETURNED FROM MESA....
Last night . Spent almost the entire week in the valley and was at four games . Saw Cub fans at restaurants, bars, retail stores, malls, gas stations, airport and yes renting cars . Without the team in Mesa where would these fans be ???
pounding sand somewhere i'm sure
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Mar 17, 2010 12:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Or
Consuming mass amounts of Wylie’s (they’re on a budget…wait, do they even make that anymore or did I date myself?)
"...but you the living, you're stuck here with the Cubs. So it is ME who feels sorry for you." - Steve Goodman, "A Dying Cub Fan's Last Request"
by HoSs. on Mar 17, 2010 7:58 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Just got back from Mesa today, the 18th
We got there last Saturday, the 13th. I’ve been going since 1997. I have never seen as many empty storefronts, entire shopping centers completely deserted, abandoned homes, in any trip before. An article I read while there says Spring training brings over $350 milllion to the state. Arizona needs money BADLY. I can’t imagine why any resident would complain about doing whatever it took to keep all components of Spring Training, such as the the Cubs there.
Jamie Strain, the owner of Diamond’s, says that without March, he’d be hard pressed to stay in business.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
If the Cubs move to east Mesa
he is going to be hard pressed to stay in business anyway. And given that he is what, the fourth owner of that business, I would say his odds weren’t all that great going in.
Well, he's the third, but why quibble
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Depends on how you count, I guess
The place has certainly had four different names. It started out as Harry and Steve’s Chicago Grill, then Harry Carey pulled out and it became Steve Stone’s Chicago Grill, then Steve Stone sold it and it became Sluggo’s, and now Diamond’s with yet another new owner.
Four names, three owners
The place has been around for what, over 20 years? The number of owners hasn’t affected it that much.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
I'm pretty sure
Steve Stone sold the place before they guy who renamed it “Sluggo’s” bought it, so I believe there were actually four separate owners. Harry pulled out in 1994, and it was renamed Sluggo’s in 1998, so there has actually been a pretty regular turnover of ownership.
No
Doug Seipel bought it from Stone
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
It's three
And really, what does it matter? The overriding point is the place has been in business for 30 years (I checked), sustained by March Cub business. Whether it was three or four owners doesn’t matter over a stretch of time like that. Seipel had it since 1998, so if the new owner comes along in late 2008/early 2009 as Jamie Strain did, how does that equate to a “regular turnover of ownership”?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
The place opened
in 1986 as Harry and Steve’s Chicago Grill. How is that 30 years? By 1994, Harry Carey obviously decided that this was not the bonanza he was hoping it would be, so he sold out his interest to Stone. Stone hung on for 4 more years before selling out altogether to Seipel. Seipel had the longest tenure from 1998-2008, but he eventually gave up the ghost and sold to Jamie, who is already struggling with it.
There is no other way to spin this other than the fact that despite being next door to a busy convention center and hotel (Marriott), the place has struggled.
It is worth noting the Seipel owns another sports bar, also called Sluggo’s, further east in Mesa and that location is apparently doing quite well.
Here you go....
http://www.downtownmesa.com/news.pdf
From the link:
The owner of Diamonds Sports Grille brings a fresh
face to the bar/restaurant although customers will recognize
most of the staff from the business formerly
called Sluggo’s. From left: Epi Luna who has served
food there for 30 years, bartender Emy Garcia, owner
Jamie Strain, and Fermin Villagran who has been the
cook for 24 years.
And your information about the Sluggo’s near Sossman and Baseline, is well, baseless. The place is closed and has been since Strain bought the Sluggo’s on Centennial. Matter of fact, since I saw Seipel on St. Patrick’s Day, maybe you could refer him to one of the places on Mesa teeming with activity. He could use the income.
So, since you don’t source it, I don’t know where the hell you get your info that Harry decided it wasn’t going to be a bonanza and that Stone struggled. Seipel was a horrible manager and made hardly any capital improvements. Strain has put money into the place, and while he’s not getting rich, he’s doing okay. IF the Cubs leave, all bets are off.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
And just for fun...
…I just called Mesa information, no listing for a Sluggo’s anywhere in the Valley. I just called Diamond’s, they also confirmed the other location is no more. So I really don’t know how it could be doing quite well.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
it matters only in that it's a straightforward fact and should be fairly easy to verify
You said three, azjazzman said four. I was just curious who was right and who was wrong.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Understood
Let’s just follow azjazzman’s own info, questionable though it maybe. From Harry/Steve to Steve to Seipel to Strain. If you count Stone twice, I suppose that’s four. I’ll compromise at 3 and 1/2, but whatever. For a bar, that’s not turnover that suggests failure.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
And this owner timeline
is the one I said was in place, anyway.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
If you came here in 2008 or 2009
there were just as many empty storefronts. If you are talking about Mesa, or more specifically, West Mesa, where Hohokam is located, there are areas around there that have been declining for many years. Nothing new there.
Yet, there are two gigantic new shopping centers that are only a couple of miles away that have gone up in the past few years. That is the way of the “boom and bust” nature of the City of Phoenix. Always has been. There is still a massive amount of new residential and commercial construction. Sure, it has declined since the ridiculous levels of 5-8 years ago, when Phoenix led the nation in new construction, but the area is still growing and will continue to do so whether the Cubs train here or not.
I've been going every year since 1997
There’s no question the entire Mesa area is more depressed than it has ever been. Whether you drive up and down Main Street or go to the outlying areas, there are more homeless, less businesses and generally less traffic than in years past. The other day, students from a local college gave a presentation to the Mesa council about an entire center at Alma School and Southern that has been empty and fenced off for years. They’re now down to college kids taking on redevelopment as a school project?
I saw the new centers. There’s an obvious lack of city planning in the entire valley. They need to address these empty eyesores before building something new. Several of us also went by the area where the Cubs propose to build. It’s a nice, huge area. If they build it, downtown Mesa takes a huge hit. Again, no foresight, no planning. For example, there’s a big empty lot next to the Mesa Marriott. Use that as a base, and declare eminent domain over everything else they might need. If they actually did this, it would help preserve and reinvigorate the business already in the area as opposed to killing even more and having people drive through ghost neighborhoods to get to the new facility.
I would dispute the notion, unless supported by statistics, that Phoenix is still growing. The area is in the top five, if not number one, for foreclosures in the country. Moreover, they need to rewrite their laws as it relates to walking away from mortgages. As it stands now, lenders can’t go after the assets of people who simply walk away in Arizona. That’s craziness. With all these abandoned homes, what sense does it make to continue to build new?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Please
stick to something you actually know about.
In the Arizona Republic on March 10th of 2010, it was reported “New Census Bureau estimates show that Arizona’s population growth continued to slow at the end of the decade yet still was among the fastest in the nation. Only Nevada is gowing faster.” In January 2010, Buckeye and Gilbert cracked the top ten most rapidly growing cities in the U.S, for the period 2007-2009.
Main Street Mesa: With the complete of the $100M Mesa Arts Center, the light rail system and the beginning of an overall downtown redevelopment plan, Main Street in downtown Mesa is healthier than it has been since the 1960’s and it will only continue to get more so. There are already plans to extend light rail through downtown to Country Club, and possibly east Mesa.
The area around Fiesta Mall is another story. It is a blighted area, and as you have pointed out, there are plans being formed to deal with that. But, the new shopping centers are not the result of poor planning or lack of foresight. Some time ago, consumer preference in the valley moved away from large enclosed malls and strip shopping centers to large, outdoor shopping “Power Centers” with a community center feel to them. These power centers contain shopping and entertainment venues all in one location and that is what people prefer. The dying of the large indoor mall is not because of poor planning, it is because their day in the sun is over.
Most of the rest of your post is nonsense. There will be no need to drive through “ghost neighborhoods” to get to the new facility if and when it is built. It will be accessed via a modern and well planned freeway system.
As far as redevelopment as a university school project…that is just one idea that is being looked at. Oh, and by the way, Rio Salado, Tempe Town Lake, and Mill Avenue development in Tempe, one of the true redevelopment success stories in the Phoenix area was originally conceived by students at ASU, so I wouldn’t denigrate that. Other cities in the area, including Mesa have been using Mill Avenue for years as an example of what they would like to see happen in their own downtown redevelopment. These students will be the planners and city leaders in the future, why not get them involved up front?
What the hell
No need for the insults. I stand by what I said.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
What insults?
other than telling you that you are flat out wrong, I don’t see any insults. The contents of my post prove you are wrong, so you can stand by what you said all you want, it is factually incorrect, makes assumptions that are false and shows a basic lack of understanding of the subject.
Other than that, it was interesting reading (of the fictional variety) :-P
Like ballhawk said
It’s always sunny in Arizona….
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
maybe you should read what you post before hitting post
your tone of “voice” is beyond arrogant as you continue to tell everyone that you and only you can be correct, no matter what on this topic.
I am not saying that no one else does, but you have been consistant in telling others, (in more words) to shut up and listen to you since no one else can be correct
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
Writing about "tone of voice"
when describing a written post is pretty lame.
I haven’t told anybody to shut up.
But, I am tempted to tell you to do just that.
tempted to tell you to check your
arrogant attitude about this topic at the door and post as if you were actualyl talking with people not talking at people
no wait, not tempted I just did
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
You're the same guy
Who made the absurd statement that Manny Ramirez’ popularity was like Fernandomania. When those of us who actually live in LA disagreed, you decided you were the expert because you go to a few Dodger games.
Is there anything you’re ever wrong about?
If you call empty storefronts healthy, good for you. Main Sreet Mesa was deserted Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday of this week. I saw it.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Mar 19, 2010 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Funny I was at the game yesterday
saw Manny get cheered when he came up to bat and heard nary a boo. You are the same guy that made the absurd statement that Manny was no longer popular in LA. Sorry, but that is just plain incorrect.
Funny, I had a meeting in downtown Mesa on Monday and it was teeming with activity as it always is on a weekday, as there are many 9-5 businesses. I attended a performance last week in the evening at the Mesa Arts Center and again, there was lots of activity. I went to a Farmer’s Market in downtown Mesa last weekend and there was a street festival going on that seemed to be extremely well attended.
Cheers at Spring?
Equate to Fernandomania? Riiiiiight…
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Nice attempt at changing my words
you were the one that erroneously stated that the fans in LA had turned on Manny and that Mannywood was no more. You are wrong in both instances.
Wrong
I never said Mannywood was no more. Mannywood is a marketing gimmick dreamed up by the Dodgers. They brought it back when he returned from suspension, and only after a while at that. Therefore, it exists. However, to compare it to Fernando Valenzuela’s popularity is ludicrous.Valenzuela gave Hispanics in the area someone to root for and identify with, something that back in 1980 they had not had up to that point. Valenzuela in East L.A., to this day, is comparable to their Ali. Ramirez is a roided, moody, petulant egomaniac whose appeal lies mostly with the frustrated Raider fan I referenced earlier.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Whatever
You can nitpick all you want. The bottom line is you were wrong about Manny’s popularity in LA, plain and simple.
Not a chance in hell
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Further.....
Make up your mind. In another thread, you caled Mesa “economicaly troubled”. Here, it is teeming with activity. Which is it?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
It is both
these comments are not mutually exclusive. If you bothered to read the entirety of my posts, you would’ve have noted that I said downtown Mesa is healthier now than it has been since the 1960s. That is not to say it is not economically challenged. The fact is, up until recently, downtown Mesa was, if not dead, certainly on the endangered list. It has not been the hub or the financial center of Mesa for a long time. The new Arts Center, light rail, etc are going to help make a difference, The problem is not solved by any means, but it is being addressed in a positive way and there is reason to think that a revival like Tempe has with Mill Avenue is possible.
Well, if you're going to make up your own rules here....
… there’s no point to this. Economically troubled and teeming with activity can be used to describe the same area. Got it.
I’ve read your posts. You’re going to have to tell me where this phantom Mesa is of which you speak, because it wasn’t there earlier this week.
But let’s not get away from my first post and premise, which was that I can’t imagine why any resident would complain about doing whatever it took to keep all components of Spring Training, such as the the Cubs there. I’ll add, especially the Cubs. If Mesa were to lose the Cubs, it would be devastating for the town. I’ve seen nothing to dispute that. I’ve seen nothing to contradict that the laws need to be reworked to make it harder for people to walk away from their mortgages. I’ve seen nothing to refute the notion that building new housing makes any sense when so many properties are and will be abandoned. Add these things to whatever percentage the Cubs and their fans contribute economically to the greater Metro area, whether tourist money, taxes, sustainable jobs, Arizona residents need to do all they can to ensure Mesa doesn’t fail.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
What phantom Mesa?
you dispute that what I have described as fact? Well, that just confirms what I have been saying. You know nothing about this area. You come here for a few days once a year and are now think you are an expert on Mesa and the local economy? I got a news flash for you…you aren’t.
Have you ever been east of Gilbert Road? Have you ever been north of the 202? Have you ever seen the Boeing plant or the massive development going on at Gateway airport or the GM Proving Grounds? No, I didn’t think so. That’s like forming an opinion about Los Angeles by visiting Watts and no place else.
You said the area is not growing…I have shown you to be wrong. You state that Mesa is dependent on the Cubs…that is not only wrong, it is ludicrous. Mesa is not in danger of failing. That comment is just stupid. As far as mortgages, and abandoned buildings, Mesa is no different than any other city in the valley, or any other city in the country, for that matter. The No.1 city for default mortgages is Las Vegas, and nobody is wringing their hands of Las Vegas’ imminent demise.
In fact, if you knew anything about this, you would know that the primary reason the Phoenix area and Las Vegas experienced such high mortgage default rates is because of the unprecedented run up in housing prices about 6 years ago that was mostly fueled by California real estate investors. When that bubble inevitably burst, a lot of folks couldn’t afford their house payments and were seriously upside down. So, it was easier to walk away. This crisis has already eased significantly and will soon be a memory.
It is interesting how you ignore all of the evidence I have provided that completely refutes what you have stated. All you do is repeat the same BS.
Right back at ya, Bunky
As others have said, it’s really hard for you to see there might be another point of view.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Well, there are informed
points of view and uninformed ones.
I guess I don’t have to tell you what category yours falls into.
The sky is blue
I await your denial.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
and according to you
no one but yours is informed and no one else is allowed an opinion as well about this topic, which you have been happy to demonstrate in multiple threads about this topic
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
As for me
All I can say is I’m there every year, was just there, and I saw what I saw. His advocacy for his area is admirable, but it is extremely possible for others to see it differently than him. Maybe when you only see it every so often like I do the drop off is more noticeable than if you see it all the time, like he does. I dunno.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
that seems like a honest possability
when you see somethign daily the changes are moderate and happen over time so you dont realize it as much as someone who is around once every now and then.
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
Great point...
…and I posted a while back; the Cubs are to the Cactus league what Bobby Hull was to the new WHA in 1972. Without Hull, the WHA probably lasts 2-3 years and folds up shop. With him, they last almost 10 years, recruited a lot of other quality guys from the NHL and also had several teams get folded into the NHL. Hull was so important to the WHA, that other teams helped pay his signing bonus, because they knew what he meant for all the teams and the fans he would put in the seats.
The problem with the Cubs issue is simply egos. No one wants to admit how much the Cubs mean to their attendance and give them that much credit, because we are talking about well established clubs here. I tend to think the money will eventually speak, and they will get it worked out.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Mar 19, 2010 9:16 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
There's no comparison at all
between the two scenarios. Without the Cubs, the Cactus League will still thrive and succeed. The real losers if the Cubs move to Florida will be the Cubs themselves. With 14 teams, including every single team in the Western part of the U,S. training in Arizona, the Cactus League will be very healthy, thank you, with or without the Cubs.
I'm not saying the cactus league...
…would fold, but they’ll sure as hell have less revenue.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
As has been pointed out before
there have been three teams added to the Cactus League in 2009-10. Those three teams combined, the Dodgers, Indians and Reds represent more than the Cubs do. So, worst case scenario, if the Cubs were to leave, it puts the Cactus League back to 2007. Which, was a record year, by the way.
So, while losing the Cubs would not be ideal, it certainly would not be the hit that some on here seem to think it would be.
how would the Cubs be losers moving to Florida?
sounds like an excuse that Bradley would make about how the NL Central are losers without him, which is recockulous to think. Mesa and the Cactus league would lose out with a Cubs move to Florida, imagaine Cubs/Bos and Cubs/NYY ST games and what they would draw for the Grapefruit League
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
Cubs wouldn't play the Yankees.
The Yankees’ spring park in Tampa is about 170 miles from Naples — way too far for any trips. That is, in fact, the major issue with having ST in Naples — only two teams (the Red Sox and Twins) are within the same mileage range as all 14 other teams in Arizona are.
Logistics are one of the primary reasons it makes sense for the Cubs to stay in Mesa.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
are the primary reasons for the Cubs either staying or going. If they can get what they want/need without having to move, then obviously they’ll stay.
But if Mesa/Arizona drops the ball on this MOU and the “competition” opens up again, the Cubs will follow the money. There’s no way the Cubs will accept less than what they want/need just because the bus trips are shorter.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
That has to be a factor, though.
I agree, it’s mostly about $. But there are other factors.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
are there fields about half way between the teams
where they can meet?
also dont Bos and NYY play each other in ST even with the long distance?
I see on the Red Sox schedule they play
Bal
TB
Fla
StL
NYM
Tor
Pit
Hou
Min
which I would have no problem with
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
You think the Cubs and Yankees would play on a "neutral" field in ST?
That would never happen.
You answered your own question about the Red Sox and Yankees playing in ST. They don’t.
Here is a map of all the Grapefruit League sites. Only two of them (Red Sox and Twins, #8 on the map) are within 45 miles of Naples — the same (approximate) distance that will cover all 15 teams in the Cactus League in 2011.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well, as of yesterday
The House Bill was passed (interestingly, with a blank where the actual percentage of the ticket surcharge would be specified). The sponsor of the Bill stated that he would not push for a vote in the Senate until MLB and the Cactus League got behind the bill, and that he would negotiate with those entities to gain their support, so I would say the chances that something get passed by the July 12th deadline is much better now than it was even a week ago. They dropped the car rental surcharge, which I think is wise.
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