Camelback Ranch Needs Major Surgery (And Cubs Lose To Dodgers 7-3)
by Al Yellon on Mar 18, 2010 8:04 PM CDT
in Chicago Cubs Recaps
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GLENDALE, Arizona -- This is going to be a rant, so if you're not in the mood for that, skip on past the jump for a recap of the game action from the Cubs' 7-3 loss to the Dodgers this afternoon.
I had been warned about this before I went to Camelback Ranch -- had not been there before today -- but until I saw it for myself, it was not for believing. It took almost two hours to get back to where I'm staying in Scottsdale. I could have returned from a game in Tucson faster.
After today's game -- which set a Cactus League record for single-game attendance with 13,391, breaking a six-year-old record from a Cubs/Mariners game in Peoria on March 12, 2004 -- it took one hour to get out of the parking lot. This included thirty minutes of not moving at all. And this was after about half the crowd had left before the game ended.
I have been at sold-out major league stadiums in Philadelphia and New York -- 45,000 or so people -- where I got out of the parking lot in less than five minutes. I have been at two Fiesta Bowls here in the Valley -- about 75,000 fans total -- where I got out of the parking lot in less than ten minutes. There is absolutely no excuse for the design of this spring training complex, which seats about 13,000, to have a parking and traffic pattern this terrible. It ruins the experience. When I finally did get out of the lot, police forced me to go west on Camelback Road rather than east toward the 101 loop, forcing me to take a long detour north and go north, rather than south, on the 101.
Here are some comments written last year by my friend Rob at the Angels/Dodgers blog 6-4-2; they echo my sentiments. There's plenty of open land around the complex; there is absolutely no reason to route traffic the way they did. Parking is free -- obviously, you get what you pay for. Since I already have a ticket for tomorrow's game vs. the White Sox at the same location, I'm going back. But unless they fix the problem, that will be the last time I attend a game at Camelback Ranch.
This should be a cautionary tale to Cubs ownership and management when they build whatever new complex they wind up with in Mesa. Don't do parking and traffic this way!
As for the ballpark itself, it seems... really large and spread out. Some of the seats in the back rows feel a long way from the field; the concourse is wide, but again, everything is spread out. The lawn, which is large, isn't banked high enough (in the outfield; some berm space on the foul lines appears better), so you have to stand for most of the game to see. From much of the LF lawn, you can't see the scoreboard, and the video boards are almost lost in the size of the place.
Souvenirs were exclusively White Sox/Dodgers and I didn't check out pricing. Food choices were good and pricing was reasonable; I had a "chicken cheesesteak" which was quite large for $7.25. Tomorrow, though, I'll probably bring a sandwich (which you can do there).
The game? Oh, yes, the point of being there in the first place. Ryan Dempster gave up two runs in the first inning, in part because Tyler Colvin made an awkward stab at Matt Kemp's sinking liner, which went for a double. Two batters later, Manny Ramirez, starting his first game in the OF this spring, hit a long home run that landed about 50 feet to the left and behind me. That was all Dempster gave up, except for a couple of walks and harmless singles. Geovany Soto ended Dempster's four innings by nailing Blake DeWitt trying to steal.
The Cubs tied up the game in the sixth off knuckleballer Charlie Haeger after Derrek Lee walked. Jim Adduci ran for him, stole second and scored on a Colvin single.
Then the Dodgers' bench opened up on the Cubs' bullpen. Don't blame John Grabow for the two runs he gave up -- he made his pitches and got ground balls, but they got by the spare-part infielders. Major league infielders would have made plays on two balls that got through.
Do blame John Gaub, who gave up three straight hits to start his inning, including a three-run homer just down the LF line by Reed Johnson -- can you imagine how much he wanted to hit that? Reed was holding court in the outfield with a number of his former teammates before the game. He also made a diving attempt on a sinking liner in the ninth, but couldn't come up with it; the Cubs scored their final run on that play.
And then there was the traffic. Tomorrow's game (Randy Wells vs. John Danks) is already listed as a sellout (noted by a sign at the ticket windows today), so it's not likely to be any better. There has to be a better way, and I hope they find it. Soon.
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No idea what happened Al
AZjazzman and I had no problem at all. I would ask him about that short cut. We parked in the lot way away and I know you were there early and got into one closer. We were back in Scottsdale enjoying ice cream at the Sugar Bowl it under an hour.
Nice hanging out with you on the lawn even if I did not get see Fuld or Castro play. Tomorrow will be in swanky seats. Maybe Fuld will get a start.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
We'll have to talk about this tomorrow morning.
It was intolerable. No excuse for this sort of problem.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
DS, I would love to hear about your good parking lot and shortcut,
as I need to get out of there quickly tomorrow.
I will ask Azjazzman to post info
I don’t drive and am clueless. We got there shortly before the start and parked in the “dirt” parking lot area. It seemed like a mile away but we got out easy. I hate to scare anyone but
well over half the crowd was gone before the end yesterday. If it is a close game tommorow this may not be the case so getting out could be worse.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Mar 18, 2010 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions
The key is to use Indian School Rd
instead of Camelback, which I was forewarned is a mess. Indian School is one mile south of Camelback Rd. (one exit sooner if you are driving north on the 101 from I-10). You exit on Indian School, head west to 107th Avenue then turn right and take 107th North to Camelback. That way you avoid Camelback altogether.
When leaving, just the reverse. Head south on 107th to Indian School and turn left. Actually what we did was just take 107th south until it intersects with I-10 (about 3 miles). Either way you avoid the mess on Camelback.
The problem is getting out of the parking lot...
… not getting there.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Another issue.
When you come out of the parking lot, they won’t let you go straight onto 107th. They force you to go west on Camelback.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well the exit out of the lot
that we parked in dumps onto to 107th, so all you had to do was keep going straight.
Thanks, AZJazzman!
I’ll shoot for the parking lot off 107th to hope to have the best possible angle when leaving.
Try to arrive just shortly before game time
That is when they send you there,
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Mar 19, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Hmm... you on the lawn... home run hit to LF... I have to ask...
Were you perchance, having another siesta???
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
No. Alas I forgot my newspaper
I was checking email and hardly playing full attention to the game, but no naps this time.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Mar 18, 2010 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions
This is very upsetting.
I was hoping to make my 7 pm tour of Taliesin West after tomorrow’s game—it sounds as if this may make that rather difficult.
You'll make it.
But you may have to leave the game early.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
How many lanes did they have going outbound?
Last year, they coned off traffic inbound so there were three lanes going in; bur they did not extend the same courtesy after the game.
Witty .sig goes here.
It was squeezed down into one lane.
Absolute idiocy.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
One lane going out after the game?
That’s just not right. I got out of Dodger Stadium in about five minutes last August, and that was with a crowd of 45,000 people there, too.
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 18, 2010 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions
well, you guys have to understand
that just a couple of years ago, all of this area of Glendale was nothing but farm land. In a short period of time, houses, shopping centers and hotels/offices have sprouted up in the wake of the building of the Coyotes hockey arena, University of Phoenix Stadium and now Camelback Ranch. The infrastructure of roads to service all this new construction just hasn’t caught up yet.
My understanding that a widening of Camelback Road, additional feeder roads to service Camelback Ranch and better parking facilities are all in the works, they just haven’t been done yet.
You have to appreciate how quickly Camelback Ranch got constructed. It was under an unbelievably tight construction schedule. It may take them another year or two to get the road situation squared away, but eventually they will. They had the same problem the first season the football stadium was opened, but traffic flow is quite smooth at games now.
I'll definitely take your word for it.
But I agree, I think if they can get the football stadium situation cleared up, they can do the same with the baseball stadium.
Is this football stadium where the Arizona Cardinals play?
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 18, 2010 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes
trust me, the first year, the traffic jams at the football stadium were legendary. Now, there are no problems at all. The same thing happened when they built Maryvale and Peoria Sports Complexes. At first, horrible traffic jams, now, everything is as smooth as can be.
This is not like cities back east where they are building in an area where the infrastructure already exists. They are doing it on the fly.
What were the jams like that first year?
How long did people have to wait to get out, on average?
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 18, 2010 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Have they not been able to learn from their mistakes?
Ok, so these are all in different municipalities, but aren’t they close enough to know what the others are going through so they don’t do the same thing? Or are they making new mistakes with each new facility?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
It's not a case of learning from mistakes
as I have explained, when they are building in an undeveloped area with unbelievably tight construction schedules, there is just no way to get the road improvements in place in time. They have to be designed, funding applied for, which can take several years and then construction schedules approved and executed.
In the case of the other stadiums in that area, it happened fairly quickly. Camelback Ranch is a bit of an unusual case, in that the stadium is owned by Glendale, but it sits on land in the City of Phoenix. So, there are two municipalities that are going to be involved with road improvements…a challenge, because Phoenix would be the one improving the main roads, and the stadium is owned by Glendale. You can see the conflict, but they will get it done.
where is the fault then?
Bureaucratic red tape by local govt? Poor planning by developers? Unreasonable expectations by owners?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
There is no fault
this is what happens when it is announced in October of 2007 that the Dodgers and White Sox will begin Spring Training in Glendale in February of 2009, and a facility hasn’t even been designed yet. There is no way you are going to get roads designed, funded and constructed in that time frame.
But, I must emphasize, the problem is not nearly as bad as Al is portraying it, as Doggie Stalker will attest. Besides the route we took to and back from the game, I can think of at least three other alternate routes that could be taken.
If Camelback Road was under construction, then that means they are already working on the solution to the problem, and an alternate route is required in the meantime.
It's Always Sunny In Arizona, isn't it...
somehow I figured you wouldn’t be able to acknowledge that somewhere along the way somebody might have made a mistake.
Keeping to the situation at hand, who was responsible for the timing of that announcement in October 2007? Why couldn’t a decision had been made sooner to allow for more planning/construction time? If the ball was in the Dodgers/Sox court to wait until then to decide, then who gave them that much time – the city of Glendale? Arizona? ASTA? Tucson? Vero Beach?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
And I was equally sure
that you couldn’t resist playing the blame game.
I’ve explained it just as clearly as I can. If that isn’t good enough for you, I won’t waste any more time on this.
The bottom line is that this is a temporary problem…it isn’t that big of a deal.
it's more like peeling an onion than playing the blame game
I’m just working backwards to see how things ended up like this. If you don’t know why the principals involved were given less than 18 months to plan and build a two-team facility, then that’s all you have to say.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
In fact, I do know
I just don’t see where it is relevant.
The timing was mostly driven by the Dodgers and the opt out clause in their contract with Vero Beach.
The Dodgers had every intention of staying in Vero. There had been casual conversations with several communities in Arizona, but the Dodgers always figured when push came to shove, Vero Beach would do whatever it took to keep them.
When that didn’t happen, the Dodgers got serious with Glendale. Glendale wanted the Dodgers, but had no stadium and no funding. The AZSTA was approached and they said there had to be a 2nd team. That is when they started talking to the White Sox. But, the White Sox were contractually committed to Tucson and the Dodgers wanted to move in 2009.
It took awhile, but the White Sox figured out a way that they could break their lease in Tucson, and that is when funding was applied for. After it got approved there were still some loose ends to tie up and by the time they were, there were only 18 months to design and build a stadium for the teams to move into in Feb. 2009.
In fact, when Feb. 2009 rolled around, the complex was not fully completed, but enough so that the teams could use the complex. This year, in fact, is the first year that a fully completed Camelback Ranch has been in use for spring training.
it's not so much relevant as it is interesting
as in I find it very interesting to see to what lengths cities and politicians will go to lure their “prize jewels”. Based on the scenario you described above, it’s clear that many parties – including one team’s owner – jumped through extensive hoops to make this happen on the timetable desired, even though it caused everyone (except perhaps the teams themselves) much pain. And evidently it’s still causing some pain to some folks.
I guess the relevance comes into play as we watch the mating dance unfold with Mesa, Arizona, and the Cubs (and to a certain extent the rest of the Cactus League – and evidently a budinski commissioner). As you pointed out, the logistical problems will almost certainly happen again, given the timetable that’s been suggested. And politicians rarely move fast to the benefit of others.
I guess we have differing ideas of what fault means because you see none and I see lots. But I also see the extreme willingness by those involved to inflict pain on themselves and others in order to lure/retain teams. And that’s why I was never sure Florida was “out of it” w.r.t. the Cubs. Still not, actually, since the Cubs have built in some escape windows into this whole deal.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Well, in the interest of brevity
I left out a key thing that caused the short timetable for Camelback Ranch. The contract that the White Sox had with Tucson stated that they could only break the lease if a replacement team was found. The White Sox fiddled around for a year trying different methods of exercising this option (including proposing a Japanese team as a replacement, until it was pointed out that the contract specified the replacement team be a MLB team). Finally, the White Sox just said, we are leaving and offered a cash settlement, which Pima County ultimately accepted. But, by then, the clock had been ticking and they had to rush to get the stadium done in time.
I used to think the Naples, Florida option was still viable for the Cubs, but the more I read about this, the more convinced I am that it never was seriously considered and was just a negotiating ploy.
Nonsense.
This park was designed to be one of the largest among the spring training complexes in Arizona. It has one entrance and exit only. There was simply no excuse for that.
This year they got rid of the people picking up money from incoming customers by eliminating parking charges. That’s a lesson learned and a good thing. So is actually hiring cops to force green lights where needed at the corner of Camelback Rd. and 111th St.
But they still managed to screw things up by failing to recognize that three lanes out is better than only two. And that could have been fixed this very year without any infrastructure changes.
Witty .sig goes here.
First of all
there are two entrances, not one. The paved lots use one entrance, the dirt lot, which is clearly temporary, uses another.
You can see from the satellite image how they are in the process of completing a second and third entrance and exit for the permanent paved parking lot area.
Since these roads have to be funded by the City of Phoenix, it is by no means nonsense that they have not been completed in synch with the accelerated schedule to open the ballpark, as deemed necessary by the teams. It is a plain and simple fiscal reality.
Also
if you look at the map, you can see the immense challenges they had with access to this property in terms of roads. There is the Glendale Airport to the northeast, which prevents Bethany Home from coming thru. There is the canal that is also a barrier. And 111th Avenue, which would normally be the western arterial, once you are south of Camelback becomes a curving residential street, which is no doubt why they forced Al to turn west onto Camelback.
Getting good arterial access to this property is no piece of cake.
That is not an "entrance"
There is only one entrance to the complex, and it is at the corner of Camelback Road and 111th Ave. You are playing semantic games here and being intentionally dense. Knock it off.
You continue to ignore the fact that, even in the total absence of street widening or adding a second exit on 107th Ave., they could have made the one exit three lanes wide, the left with a left-only lane, the middle left-or-right, and the right a right-only turn lane. They didn’t bother to recone the access road — as they did last year for ingress. So stop pretending that this is some terror thrust upon them. It’s not — they just don’t want to even try.
Witty .sig goes here.
The road you are talking about...
… “Ball Park Avenue”, or something like that, is four lanes wide. There is absolutely no reason why ANY car should be allowed to go INTO the parking lot after games — as I saw one car do while I was sitting in line to get out.
All four lanes should be exit lanes after the game — and cars should be allowed to turn left, go straight or turn right. Instead, all traffic is forced into one lane and forced to turn right.
It’s really, really bad traffic management.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I can think of one right away
Emergency vehicle access. They must provide for it as a public venue.
Witty .sig goes here.
OK, that's one lane.
That still leaves two others totally blocked off.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Bite Me
I am not being intentionally dense. You are being rude as well as stupid.
There IS an entrance/exit at Camelback and 107th Ave. I KNOW BECAUSE I TOOK IT YESTERDAY!
Your last paragraph demonstrates how clueless you are about this. Do you honestly believe they purposely altered the access from last year with the intent of making it WORSE? Please.
It is as obvious as can be the parking and access roads are a work in progress. It is also obvious that there is an overall site development plan for commercial development and that some temporary roads and lots have been set up in anticipation of ultimate changes in roads that will serve to provide access not only to the ballpark parking, but to the commercial businesses as well.
Seriously..
… “bite me” isn’t acceptable. There can be reasonable disagreements on this without resorting to that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Might not be acceptable
but it is more polite than how I originally was going to respond to being told I was being intentionally dense and to knock it off. Trust me, you do not want me to post what I think about that.
I did not know they added another entrance
From what I could see in the lot north of the park, the road around the park heading to the northeast was just as incomplete as it was last year. My apologies.
Witty .sig goes here.
Apology accepted
and I take back my “bite me” and I apologize to you and anyone else I may have offended.
BTW, I do agree that it is bizarre that they have not completed that road to link up with Bethany Home. I can only assume that it is money that has prevented them from doing so, but that will provide some relief when they finish it.
Also
From talking with the parking lot staff, there was no exit in that direction, either. So maybe they’re only using it for entrances? However you cut it, the Dodgers and White Sox have not updated their site map (PDF) to indicate the second gate.
Witty .sig goes here.
Looking at the lot from that side...
… it would appear that there ARE ways to cut through some kind of road for exit. At the very least, why not just pave a gravel path for exit, until you can get something permanent?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well, I attended
my 2nd consecutive sell out game at Camelback Ranch yesterday and had absolutely no problem with parking or getting out after the game.
And neither did thousands of people who were parked in the same area.
In fact
to underscore my point further, Al’s plea that the Cubs and Mesa not allow this same problem to exist should the Cubs get a new complex built is a waste of breath, because it is sure to happen there as well.
The reason being is that to build another big new ST complex that will accommodate a “Wrigleyville West” development will require a sizable piece of remote, undeveloped property, and the complex will also be on an accelerated construction timetable…so the odds are slim to none that the access road infrastructure will be built in synch with the park opening, especially given how economically troubled Mesa is.
The land may not be as access challenged as the Camelback Ranch property is, but there will be traffic snarls for the first year or two, count on it.
Nevertheless...
… since the Cubs will have lead time once the funding is approved, maybe they can figure out how to do it right.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I was wondering why city of Phoenix police were there.
Until they get it done, tomorrow will be my last game at Camelback Ranch.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I went to Peoria in the first couple of years.
It wasn’t anywhere near this bad.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
We avoided Camelback completely
so I don’t know. Was it squeezed down to one lane because of construction? If so, then maybe they have started the widening of Camelback Road, which when completed, will ease the problem considerably.
I wounder what naughty words Al was screaming in his car.
A decent outing by Demp. Tracy got a few hits, which is making it all the harder for Millar.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
I'll never tell.
I think Tracy has made the team.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Um...
… him hitting .300 this spring and playing good defense at 3B, plus he can play 1B or the OF, too.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I didn't know he could play OF.
Will he play the OF this spring?
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
We have a few prospects who can play OF
Plus we’re supposedly trying Jeff Baker out there. I’d be surprised to see Tracy log some innings in the OF
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
if not he might
Have trade value.
by cozmotaylor123 on Mar 18, 2010 10:29 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
For some reason, I forsee Millar getting the Chad Fox treatment (if he wants)
Minor injury and a DL stint, allowing him to hang around the team as is needed.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
which is why I'm not going to say anything about never experiencing a parking lot exit nightmare in Florida...
(grins and quickly ducks…)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Florida?
Where in Florida? I was at the NLCS in 2003, in Miami, at the football stadium, attendance at all three games over 65,000.
It was far easier to get out of there than it was out of Camelback Ranch today.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
maybe I messed up on the double negatives but what I meant was...
…in all my spring training trips to Florida, I have never had a parking lot exit nightmare. But given the apparent level of our blood pressure, I was not going to bring that point up.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Al, you drove to a game in New York?
Were you staying in New Jersey or something?
That was last September, when I drove to NY and Pittsburgh.
Had to drive to Citi Field for the last game of the series, in order to drive on to Pittsburgh.
Honestly, driving from lower Manhattan (where I was staying) and getting out to I-80 through NJ was easier than getting out of the Camelback Ranch parking lot.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I was there today
I had a similar experience today. Parking in handicap it took forever to get out of that lot. I am NOT a happy camper. And, to make it worse, there aren’t enough handicap spaces. I’m lucky I got there early enough to get one, I think. After today, I could have hobbled from Mesa faster than getting out of the lot! I think I understand why Dodgers fans leave games early!
"I'm a Cubs fan. I'm very, very patient." -- from a Shoe cartoon.
by No Southern Belle on Mar 18, 2010 8:46 PM CDT reply actions
I know this isn't going to make any of you who attended the game and who got stuck in traffic feel better but...
…you’re at Spring Training. In warmth. And sunshine. Watching live baseball. Enjoying the sights and sounds of the game we all love. Live and in person.
…and we’re….not.
BTW, they’re predicting snow for the weekend back here in Michigan. Would you like to trade places?
Some perspective please… ;)
"Look, what do you want me to do?"
No thanks on the snow.
And yes, it’s beautiful and sunny and there’s live baseball.
But this is the only place I’ve ever encountered with traffic troubles like this. And that’s not just for a spring training ballgame — as I said, it’s for ANY live event I have ever attended, even some with five times as many people.
Just something that needs to be fixed.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I guess I understand now why Dodger fans leave in the sixth inning.
That way they can get out of the parking lot by the time the game is over.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
and doesn't Vin Scully come back on the radio for the last three innings?
if you have to sit in traffic, listing to Vin call a game is probably the best way to do it.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I am sorry that happened. I've sat in a parking lot for over an hour
waiting to get out and it’s frustrating to be sure…and to make matters worse…it was in…WINTER! ;)
Ha!
"Look, what do you want me to do?"
Wow, it must've been bad.
I remember being in Phoenix a couple of years ago and I thought the situation around HoHoKam was absolutely brutal. If Camelback is significantly worse than that, yeesh.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
The situation around Hohokam IS bad
that is why I always insist on taking the shuttle from Diamond’s instead of battling in and out of the parking areas. It’s kind of a fun way to do it too, as you usually wind up in a limo with some semi-drunk Cubs fans.
Al,
Is there any online diagram of the parking lot, and how to get in and out of it?
Who cares if he's a Cubs fan? This is a football forum! He is a PACKER fan as well. So, from now until March, I’m sure he’ll dedicate a lot of his time here. In late March, then we can be enemies during the baseball season. Besides, the Cubs have perhaps the most loyal baseball fanbase in the country. You have to respect that.
Go Pack!
by Jabooty on Jan 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 18, 2010 9:37 PM CDT reply actions
You can look at this Google Maps image
The dirt lot at the intersection of Camelback Rd. and 107th Avenue (the one in the lower right portion of the stadium complex) is the one Doggie Stalker and I parked in today and had no trouble exiting after the game.
The paved lot Al was in is in the upper right (behind the 3rd base line seats). He had to exit via the feeder road on the west (left side) that dumps onto Camelback. In both cases, you enter and exit the stadium itself via the circular looking entrance just beyond centerfield.
It looks to me like they have plans to eventually allow the paved lots to exit either to the west, as it is now, or to the east onto 107th, which for whatever reason, has not been completed yet.
I’m sure that eventually, the three corners of the intersection of 107th and Camelback (including the dirt parking lot) will be used for commercial development.
It also looks like an alternate entrance to the parking lots
from the north, feeding from Bethany Home Rd., is partly constructed, but does not reach Bethany Home Rd. yet.
Not to usurp Al's post
but I found the experience at Camelback Ranch today absolutely delightful. It was nice and warm, but not too hot, with a bit of a breeze to keep things pleasant. The stadium complex itself is a bit of a mind blowing experience for someone who has been going to Spring Training games as long as I have and who remembers the original ballpark in Scottsdale that was built for like $70K. I told Doggie Stalker that it was like baseball Disneyland, with all the lakes, landscaping and beautifully manicured grounds around the gorgeous practice fields.
I can certainly understand why teams like the Cubs experience ST envy when they see this facility.
Even though there were 13,000+ fans there, it was busy, but not overly crowded like some of the other parks get when they are at capacity. The company was good, too!
I thought the park was a little too big.
Nice, yes. But a little too much of nice. If the parking lot fiasco had not happened, would have been just fine.
Nice to share the game with you, too.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Sounds like Camelback Ranch's parking lot...
…was designed to pay homage to Dodger Stadium. An hour and a half entering, and another hour and a half exiting is not uncommon at all in LA.
IIRC, I hear they have free parking at Camelback Ranch now — The Dodgers and White Sox made that up on adding a dollar or two to each ticket.
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie" -- Tony Montana
Yes, the parking is free.
Guess I got what I paid for.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
SAW CUBS v SOX
At Camelback last March . THe game Cubs won 13-2 I think . Getting in was fine . Trying to get out was bad . We gave up and finished what was left of our lunch . After over a hour we got out but traffic was still slow . Sounds like nothing has changed . A security guard told us that is the normal traffic flow !!
I would be really interested in hearing about the handicapped parking and seating situation
since I am in a chair… I would kill to be down there watching the boys knock the rust
off and get ready for the regular season…
Can someone take pics of Camelback tomorrow?
"Why people who have not committed any punishable offense, listen to Country and Western music is absolutely beyond me" - John Cleese
Here's the scoop
on handicapped seating: “Handicap accessible seating is available in platforms on the concourse above these sections: 3, 4, 11, 15, 26, 27, 102, 103, 104, 106, 107, 112, 118, 121, 124, 126, 127, 128. Two other sections – 108 and 123 – have wheelchair accessible platforms above them but are taken up by TV cameras if the game is televised.”
As far as the parking is concerned, as best as I can tell the handicapped parking is located in the “VIP” lot, which is a little bit closer to the stadium. This is the lot that Al had trouble getting out of after the game and the one that dumped him into the traffic snarl that is on Camelback Rd. It sounds like if you want to take advantage of handicapped parking, you will have to deal with the congestion. The other lots are easier to get out of and on to other arterials.
This sums up yesterday's game rather well.
Bishop: “I’m afraid you’ve got a bad egg, Mr Jones”; Curate: “Oh, no, my Lord, I assure you that parts of it are excellent!”
originally published in Punch, 1895.
For myself, trying to do PbP, the worst part were the L.A. radio announcers. They are really terrible, imho.
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
by eths on Mar 19, 2010 2:16 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Mobile image failure
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41515751@N06/4445179484
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
by eths on Mar 19, 2010 2:18 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Mobile image failure
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41515751@N06/4445179484
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
by eths on Mar 19, 2010 2:18 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I assume you are talking about somebody other
than Vin Scully. I am not the biggest Charlie Steiner fan in the world, but he is hardly terrible. And I kind of like Rick Monday.
I have not heard him myself, but I understand there has been someone named Ken Levine who has been doing Dodgers games on MLB Network who is truly awful.
It wasn't Vin Scully
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
by eths on Mar 19, 2010 2:41 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Nope.
Vinny was hospitalized earlier in the day, supposedly for a bump on the head.
Witty .sig goes here.
It was Steye Lyons and Eric Collins
definitely not LA’s finest but then again, it was spring training. After the starters are replaced, it is kinda hard to accurately call the game.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
The point is, they failed, most of the time, to call the game.
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
I suppose
but if that is your main job, you would think they could take a reasonably good stab at it when the deep roster players start getting inserted in the game.
It is interesting to watch a Cubs ST game with Al, as he usually has figured out who the Cubs have put in the field long before the public address announcer has, and more accurately, too.
But, none of us could figure out yesterday why Fontenot changed to jersey #88 after the couple of innings. I guess he was going undercover. :-)
Did he start with #17 and then change to #88?
Based on the radio guys, it sounded like he was #88 from the start and their theory was he just forgot his regular jersey.
Which I guess is more plausible than my theory – I was thinking he got assigned to the minor league camp so they made him give up his number… ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Well, I didn't notice what number he started out with
but the public address guy definitely said “Fontenot is now wearing #88”. Your guess is as good as mine as to whether that means he changed jerseys or if it just meant that it took them two innings to notice it.
azjazzman is correct.
However, I think that’s because the original lineup he announced had Fontenot wearing #17, and it was noted later (IIRC, by some press box announcement) that he was wearing #88.
I don’t think he actually changed jerseys.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Sounds like getting out of Miller Park
That’s why we tailgate after the game too. Have a few beverages, fire up the charcoal grill again and sit back & watch the barely mobile parking lot while playing hillbillie golf, beer darts and baggo.
Just win the next game...!
Have never had that kind of trouble getting out of Miller Park.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I've had 15-20 minute waits at Miller
And I’ve been directed by the cops to go east, which doesn’t quite get me back to Madison. However, this has only happened to me during the Cubs-Brewers games. I think it has more to do with where you end up parking – most all of the delays I’ve experienced were in the “overflow” lot on the other side of the highway. I do generally recommend the post-game tailgate, especially for day games on the weekends.
Overall Miller Park isn’t too bad for other games, especially since a decent number of people will either leave early to beat traffic or head back to the beer on the bus once the 7th inning last call comes around.
We have.
But it was even worse getting IN. Once Miller Park was in view, it took us 1 1/2 -2 hrs. just to snake around in that line (2 miles?) . It was crazy! Now this was for the general parking and it was a sold out game with the Cubs. We have also gone to other games when it wasn’t the Cubs with a crowd of about 18,000 where we’ve had no problems. So we have learned our lesson. When they play the Cubs we will do the preferred parking and we will be leaving much earlier. We are going to try tailgating next time. Should be fun.
"Chicago Cubs baseball is on the air."-Pat Hughes
I've only been there once and had serious problems getting out.
It probably didn’t quite take an hour but it wasn’t far from it. It was a Cubs game and thus sold out (the bathroom lines were similarly insane… they need to install troughs up there). As I recall, tailgaters were actually blocking paths out of the lot in some places and this caused us to get stuck behind a long column of cars while people up front yelled at each other. Nobody was out directing traffic or anything.
To be fair, I’m not sure the total experience of driving to Wrigley is any better (it’s certainly more expensive), but it’s really easy to get there on foot, bus, train, or bike.
Hey Al
OT but did we ever find out why your name changed or is it still a mystery?
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
You sound like Dalton from Road House
Dalton: All you have to do is follow three simple rules. One, never underestimate your opponent. Expect the unexpected. Two, take it outside. Never start anything inside the blog unless it’s absolutely necessary. And three, be nice.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Remember, You are the Bouncer and Al is the Cooler. Just watch his back and each
others and just take out the trash.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 19, 2010 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions
Ok
Just wanted to make sure I didn’t miss it
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Mar 19, 2010 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
the first rule of SBNation Name Change Protocols
is don’t talk about SBNation Name Change Protocols.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Mar 19, 2010 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Glendale Spring Training Complex
What a waste of a perfectly good golf course.
"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver
Short Lived Attendance Record?
From today’s Tribune on the Cubs vs. Dodgers game:
The 13,391 at Camelback Ranch Thursday set a Cactus League single-game record. The Cubs have been involved in nine of the top 10 all-time attendances.
Would not be surprised if today’s game breaks that mark.
"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver
Today's game was marked "sold out" on the Camelback Ranch ticket windows.
Right now, it’s a bit cloudy and there are a few light showers in the area. They’re supposed to clear by game time, though.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
We were at that game
in Peoria in 2004! Didn’t know it was a record crowd! Cool. It was the only time we’ve been able to make ST. Didn’t Maddux pitch in that game? We saw 4 games total and the Cubs lost 3, but we had so much fun we didn’t much care.
One of Lee Elia's 15%
Good memory.
Greg Maddux did pitch in that 3/12/2004 game. The Cubs lost 10-5.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I recall that they lost
but didn’t remember the score. The only game they won while we were there that year was against the Sox at HoHoKam Park.
One of Lee Elia's 15%
I left early to avoid the mess
This was my third time at Camelback so I knew better than to stay too long. I bolted after the 7th. By dumb luck last year I went west on Camelback Road because no one was moving trying to go east. I went down to Indian School Road and got out. I did the same yesterday and was back in Mesa in 40 minutes so I could watch UNI beat UNLV. I’m going to the game today and hope I can get out as smoothly, but I will not be staying until the end!
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
Regarding parking,
we’ve been to a lot of games in Philadelphia, and unless you park near an exit, it can be rough. Once we parked near what we thought was an exit to the parking lot but for some reason they closed those gates and the whole lot was funneled through one gate when at least three were available. We moved three feet in one hour. We lived west of Philadelphia and so had to take the Schuylkill Expressway which was jammed — it’s always jammed. The Schuylkill is the world’s worst city highway. Imagine the Kennedy with only two lanes in either direction. But that’s not the Phillies’ fault. Anyway, it took two and a half hours to get out of Philadelphia, and another ninety minutes to get home in a Biblical rain storm. We are happy to be back in Chicago where we can now walk to Wrigley Field.
One of Lee Elia's 15%
I saw some of that traffic in Philly.
I also figured out ways to avoid it. In Glendale, there aren’t any such ways.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Sounds horrible.
Is there a way to avoid the Schuylkill? I could never figure it out unless we went all the way up Broad Street (611) to the turnpike which is not nearly as direct and nothing but traffic signals. Or took 95 south and then doubled back north on 476. But that was way out the way, too.
One of Lee Elia's 15%
Traffic
I feel your pain Al. I once spent over two hours trying to get out of a parking lot next to Autzen Stadium after an Oregon Ducks football game. Next time I will just continue the tailgaiting for about and hour or so after the game and then try and leave.
The worst exit traffic snarl
situation at a sporting event I ever experienced was at the NASCAR race in Las Vegas. There literally was nothing to do but stop the car, break out the beer and wait for about 3 1/2 hours before we could leave.
This was about 7-8 years ago. I don’t know if it is still as bad, but back then it was so awful, it wound up being funny. A lot of the regulars arrange for limos or vans to drop them off and pick them up after off site.
Man, going to a Ducks game at Autzen
is high on my bucket list. That has to be an awesome experience.
It was.
I couldn’t talk for two days after because of all the yelling, but it was worth it.
by 100yearitch on Mar 19, 2010 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Hotel Glendale?
On a dark desert highway, warm wind in my hair
Cold smell of stale beers, rising up through the air
Up ahead in the distance, I saw a shimmying dame
My head grew heavy and my sight grew dim
I had to stop for the game
There Lou stood in the dugout;
I heard Ronnie “woo”
And I was thinking to myself,
‘This could be Heaven or this could be poo’
Then Rami lit up the pitcher and Riot scored all the way
There were voices up the concourse,
I thought I heard them say…
Welcome to the Hotel Glen-a-dale
Such a lovely place (Such a lovely place)
What a waste of space
Plenty of room at the Hotel Glen-a-dale
Any time of year (Any time of year)
You can park it here
Koskay’s swing is twisted, he’s got batter’s box bends
The Cubs have lots of prospects; to the minors they’ll send
Oh, how they hit in the ball yard, sweet summer sweat.
Some swing to remain, some swing to forget
So I called up the vendor,
‘Please bring me an Old Style’
He said, ‘We haven’t had that brand of beer for quite a long while’
And still those voices are calling from far away,
Wake you up in the middle of the sixth
Just to hear them say…
Welcome to the Hotel Glen-a-dale
Such a lovely place (Such a lovely place)
What a waste of space
They’re livin’ it up at the Hotel Glen-a-dale
What a nice surprise (what a nice surprise)
Bring your alibis
Two runners on the basepaths,
The batter’s count’s full
The ump said "Get in the box you rook and cut out all the bull".
While back in the dugout,
Tram flashed the double "steal" sign
Catcher’s throw sailed into left field,
Just hugging the line
Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the lot
I had to find the exit back
To the place I had forgot
‘Relax,’ said the policeman,
‘There’s no reason to grieve.
At Glen-a-dale you can park it any place you like,
But you can never leave!’
Welcome to the Hotel Glen-a-dale
Such a lovely place (Such a lovely place)
What a waste of space
Plenty of room at the Hotel Glen-a-dale
Any time of year (Any time of year)
You can park it here…
"Look, what do you want me to do?"
by Zeke on Mar 19, 2010 12:09 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Wow
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
by eths on Mar 19, 2010 12:14 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
This line made the whole thing.
At Glen-a-dale you can park it any place you like,
But you can never leave!
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Nice & rec'd
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
In such situations..
I find it good to have an extra spleef on hand…unless children are with of course..
The journey is the reward!
Wait a minute (no pun intended)
Hey Al,
You expect me to feel sorry for you when you’re in sunny Arizona at a Cubs game? I’m stuck inside my tiny, windowless office all day, and who knows when I’ll ever make it to a game. I’m sorry it took a while to get out of the parking lot, but even that is better than being at work, I think.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
You are, of course, correct.
It was still frustrating.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
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