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Now....
… which one gets dropped when Lilly comes back?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
why drop the one pitching better????
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 26, 2010 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
I've got two words...
Jon Lieber.
Look, what you want me to do? This face saving move was anticipated since Silva was signed. One hoped that the Cubs would resist the temptation, but it won’t happen. Silva will pitch a couple of times, look like Silva, and we can all move on. And if the Cubs are really lucky, then Lilly will be back by then anyway. Why Gordon is calling this an upset is beyond me.
Why are you still convinced that "Silva will look like Silva"...
… even though there has already been evidence to the contrary?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
What the hell does that mean?...
Colvin is batting what, .550 this spring? Should I slot him in for his MLB All-Star appearance now, or wait till Monday? You know, Ramirez is lugging around a sub-.700 OPS. Let’s just bench him now, and start making alternative plans.
It’s SPRING! Baseball is a long season of guys continually making adjustments and counter-adjustments. Silva made a couple, and has tricked people for a few innings. Scouts will catch it, hitters will adjust, and he’ll turn back into Silva. He’s not a talented player, and really has never been, so count me as less than excited about his less than nine innings on non-suck.
by Damen Jackson on Mar 26, 2010 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh, for heaven's sake.
I know very well that spring stats are meaningless.
Carlos Silva has had success in the major leagues. He’s no All-Star, nor should we expect him to be one.
As I have written many times, his upside is Jason Marquis. That’s what I expect out of him. You should, too.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Then you'll have to explain
what evidence to the contrary you’re referring to then, as I guess I don’t follow.
And lost in this argument is the fact that Marquis has actually, you know, been an All-Star. I think you’re aiming a bit high on Silva and his upside.
by Damen Jackson on Mar 26, 2010 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions
It's pretty easy actually.
Silva has had some success in his career. Silva has looked 5th starter-ish in his recent outings. Silva is overpaid. All things that are similar to Jason Marquis.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Jason Marquis was never overpaid as a Cub.
Even if you count the $875k they sent the Rockies in trade as a cost, over the two years he played for the Cubs he was actually a pretty good deal for a slightly-below-average free-agent starting pitcher.
If you also count the $3.5 mil they paid Vizcaino as a Marquis-related cost he would have been, per Fangraphs, very slightly overpaid for those two seasons. Of course, he then went on to have a very good season for the Rockies (which is not to say the Cubs were wrong to trade him — the deal made some sense at the time, although Vizcaino was a disappointment, and the rotation was just fine in ’09).
Do fangraphs account for the fact that he was a 5th starter?
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Mar 27, 2010 8:06 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
So which side are you arguing here?
That there is evidence to the contrary that Silva isn’t terrible, or that spring stats don’t mean anything?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Mar 26, 2010 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Evidence to the contrary that Silva isn't terrible.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The thesis...
is a touch circular, yes?
by Damen Jackson on Mar 26, 2010 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Maybe.
Again, yes, many spring stats are meaningless. However, I have seen evidence that Carlos Silva might be a serviceable fifth starter.
Until he actually pitches badly in a regular season game, I’m sticking with that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agreed.
If a guy does well enough in Spring Training, they deserve the chance to prove they can do it at the major league level. Especially when you’re getting paid like Silva is. With that being said, that leash better be REAL short.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
I don't have a problem with that.
Obviously, if he’s stinking up regular season games over and over, a change will have to be made.
Until then, I’m willing to give him a chance.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
And this is where I worry about the Silva experiment.
We all know Lou has trouble admitting he’s wrong and changing his ways.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Rarely when it comes to starting pitchers, though.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Right.
But to be fair, he hasn’t had much to decide since he’s been here. Our starters have been excellent since he’s arrived.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
he pulled the plug
on Rich Hill pretty fast.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Mar 26, 2010 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Neither one of these moves surprises me in the least, and that's too bad
Gorzo isn’t a particularly good pitcher either. It appears there wasn’t actually a competition
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Mar 26, 2010 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh, I think it was all competitive..
Maybe not a fair fight, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the Cubs didn’t consider going in a different direction.
by Damen Jackson on Mar 26, 2010 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, it may have been a competition in that if Silva and Gorzo had stunk outloud
and not been able to retire a single batter, Marshall would have had a chance, but I don’t think it was REALLY a competition between the three.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Mar 26, 2010 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Do you think the Cubs considered going with Marshall and Gorzelanny
especially since Russel was on track to make the team?
I don’t know; I tend to think Lou’s mind is made up on Marshall as ’pen arm. And not w/o good reason I have to admit.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
Me...
My take is pretty much this.
But the short version? Marshall is misused for a couple of reasons, and the fix was in.
by Damen Jackson on Mar 28, 2010 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Lou wanted a third LH in the pen to start the year at least
and Marshall is the better choice to go the pen.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 28, 2010 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Incidentally...
… here is the entire Wittenmyer article from above. For some reason, the link above (the article about Silva) is truncated.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
tnx Al
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
So Marshall pitching well this spring was for nothing
bad decision there, Lou, bad decision…
This is the year...
One of a myriad we should all prepare ourselves for
Cuz, he’s a bad manager. Here’s hoping we can play well in spite of him
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Mar 26, 2010 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not a big fan of Lou.
I think he does some things really well and some things not so good. But I certainly wouldn’t say he’s a bad manager.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
I'm honestly asking, what does he do really well?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Mar 26, 2010 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions
which position do you play? And how has Lou held back your development?
Really, tell me more.
by Orval Overall on Mar 26, 2010 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Sounds eerily like...
….LAST SPRING
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Mar 26, 2010 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions
perhaps the competition wasn’t to see who could start, but to see who would be best at coming into the middle of an inning with the game on the line.
Who would you want to do that?
marshal
gorzo
silva
I know who I pick.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Mar 26, 2010 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
But Marshall is not being used to the best of his ability
Gorzo could fill that role, I think
This is the year...
Gorz
walks way too many people to be a late inning reliever
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." -- Alvin Dark
I don't think
Gorzo could. And I think Lou knows that.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Mar 26, 2010 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
That is not the question
is Marshall being used in the best interests of the team is the question.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 26, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions
That's exactly how
I read this decision made by Lou. Marshall is the only one of the three I would trust later in the game with a small lead.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." -- Alvin Dark
When you put it that way,
I feel a little less upset about it. I just hope Lou uses Marshall more appropriately.
"Chicago Cubs baseball is on the air."-Pat Hughes
if that was the competition
than having Silva or Gorzo actually pitch in relief this spring might have been a good idea. Marshall is the only one who has made half his appearances out of the pen. Sounds to me like if that was the competition, then it was all lip service
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Mar 27, 2010 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
oh jesus
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
Christos
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
by Ryno Runner on Mar 26, 2010 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Silva
Is not the end of the world. In the middle of his career, he had four seasons of 180-200 IP, a record slightly above or slightly below .500 in each of those seasons, and ERAs in 3 of those 4 seasons of 3.44, 4.21 and 4.19.
Then he got hurt, got out of shape, and has not been the same pitcher the last two years. Is it possible he can be that guy again – yes, definitely. And if he is, then he’ll be a more than respectable fifth starter in this league. If not, he’ll be out of the rotation. The sky is not falling.
But he's still out of shape...
it’s actually quite embarrassing how out of shape he is. I mean, you once had a fair amount of success, you’re getting paid millions of dollars… you then become a fat blob, and you show no desire to get back into shape? Generally speaking, I don’t want those kind of mentalities on my team.
Being fat does not necessarily mean you are not in baseball shape, particularly for pitchers.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Kanderber has a point
and I don’t disagree with it. All else being equal, I’d rather see a guy who is dedicated enough to his craft to keep himself in shape. Being fat may not always be a hindrance to pitchers, but its rarely an asset.
That said, while I’m pretty skeptical that we’re going to see a serviceable Silva this year, his girth isn’t the end of the story. He can be an effective pitcher at this weight if he’s otherwise healthy. Whether he will be remains to be seen.
by Orval Overall on Mar 26, 2010 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Google around for photos of Silva.
I found many of him in a Minnesota uniform, which was when he had his best seasons. He doesn’t look — to me, anyway — any heavier now than he did then.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Al...
I won’t debate the fat vs. effectiveness argument, but Silva is EASILY 40lbs. heavier than he was then. His manager has even commented on how out of shape he is this spring.
I actually had to delete all my photos of Silva from the Cubs Convention. I couldn’t find a flattering angle on that man to save my life.
by Damen Jackson on Mar 26, 2010 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Look below for an example of a fat pitcher who's effective.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well again,
I’m not going to get into that argument, but I still assure you that Silva is much heavier than in past years, and I’m comfortable questioning whether it’s impacting his effectiveness.
by Damen Jackson on Mar 26, 2010 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed Al
Example
Also, David Wells, Bartolo Colon, and to an extent, Z
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Mar 26, 2010 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
David Wells
was another who was BIG and was not scared to say so
how about the 2009 All-Fat Team
I present the 2009 MLB All-Fat Team:
Starting Pitchers
CC Sabathia
Big Fat Sidney Ponson
Big Fat Bartolo Colon
Livan Hernandez
Joe Blanton
Relief Pitchers
Heath Bell
Jonathan Broxton
Eddie Guardado
Bobby Jenks
George Sherrill
Position Players
Outfield
LF: Carlos Lee
CF: Andruw Jones
RF: Magglio Ordonez
Infield
1B: Dmitri Young (this was by far the most competitive position. Other strong contenders: Prince Fielder, Miguel Cabrera, Kyle Blanks, Lance Berkman, Jason Giambi)
2B: Ronnie Belliard
3B: Pablo Sandoval
SS: Jhonny Peralta
C: Jose Molina (also a lot of competition, but the Panda wins)
Designated Hitter
DH: David Ortiz (narrowly edging out Matt Stairs, who is in the National League and thus is no longer a DH)
If you google “fat pitchers in MLB” there are a lot of articles about them as well, including this one 10 best seasons by fat pitchers in MLB history which Zambrano made for his 2004 season
What happened to such players as Lamar Hoyt, Greg Luzinski, Wilson Alvarez, Tony Gwynn, and so on who were all big boys and played well.
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
Body shape generally has little to do with fitness level.
Totally agree with you, Al. I’m a long-distance runner that’s dabbled in the triathlon. I top out at about 140 in the offseason, race under 135. Being light is a great advantage as a runner (and having a gut is a tremendous disadvantage, as it messes with your form); most guys that can beat me in races look like what you’d expect good runners to look like. But the bike is perhaps the purest measure of fitness, and lots of dudes carrying extra weight flat-out crush me on the bike. They couldn’t get to that level of fitness if they were just “fat and out of shape” — by the best measure I know they’re damn fit.
So it drives me nuts when people use body shape as evidence for fitness for pitchers. Or when analysts criticize defensive linemen that run out of gas after fighting through blocks, recovering a fumble, and sprinting all-out for 50 yards. It may be that Silva couldn’t make a hard half-hour of cardio, but there’s not much evidence for that in how he looks.
by aldimond on Mar 26, 2010 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Green'ed. For the running mention and for your brilliant words.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
by Ryno Runner on Mar 27, 2010 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
being THAT fat generally means you are.
and you know that Al
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Mar 27, 2010 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Does it now?
CC Sabathia would like to have a word with you.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
how bout Fernando Valenzuela?
"Nady and his weak beard steps in"--Cubbie-Tim on Mar 12, 2010 9:53 PM CST reply actions
by cooliogirl47 on Mar 27, 2010 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions
From my perspective
the fat pitcher is one of the great, venerable baseball traditions. One could even go so far as to say “Pitching IS Ray King.”
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
Oh, you're gonna make me do this again, aren't you.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The above guy is really skinny - The below guy on the other hand
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Tweets
from Carrie and Twittermeyer stated that Lou just made it official, Gorz and Silva are in the rotation, Spellcheck and Marshal in the pen.
Is Lou really screwing this up? or is it more a case of the lesser of two evils, he trusts Marshal in the pen more than Gorz?
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." -- Alvin Dark
Lesser of two evils? If that was so, Da Gorz would most definetly in the 'pen.
Too many walks by Da Gorz. Regarding Silva, I believe with all of the money we have invested in him, and that he has had SOME success in the past, that giving him a shot at the rotation wouldn’t kill us. If he gets lit up like Seattle Silva, then I’m sure that he’ll be gone. But at least give the guy a shot.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
by Ryno Runner on Mar 26, 2010 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
All this looks like some...
dubious decision making, but we’ll see, I guess.
How are people supposed to take this Samardzija decision though? And I’m really asking, because I just don’t know what to make of it. I would have thought the Cubs would look to have him somewhere in the minors working on secondary pitches, and not coming out the ‘pen twice a week. I just can’t get my head wrapped around the organization’s long-term plans for him, and I really would have expected more clarity with these sort of dollars invested.
by Damen Jackson on Mar 26, 2010 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, Samardzija.... I have no idea what to make of him.
I would’ve thought he would be in AAA as well. I’m just speculating here. I guess that management has decided that they want him in the ‘pen for now. I’m not sure if they want him there for the long-term, but I think that the ‘pen is the best place for him. You don’t need as many pitches when you’re in the pen. I wonder if Jeff even knows what the Cubs long-term plans are for him.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
by Ryno Runner on Mar 26, 2010 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
maybe this is them saying “here’s what we got for our money, now he needs to produce.” Maybe he can be the 7th inning guy for Caridad.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Mar 26, 2010 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Hopefully he can be. Because now with our Angel gone, that's a huge ? for us.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
by Ryno Runner on Mar 26, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Perhaps they
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
're finally convinced he's not going to be a starter;
otherwise I agree, and had hoped we were passed the double-mindedness on our prospects.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
By lesser of two evils
I meant that the Gorz would do less harm in the rotation vs. in the bullpen. I agree about the too many walks, but those walks would seem to be less amplified if he is starting vs. coming in with men on base later in the game.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." -- Alvin Dark
Oh, now I see. I would probably agree with you on that point.
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
by Ryno Runner on Mar 26, 2010 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Too many walks by Da Gorz.
That’s why he starts. You don’t want that coming into the middle of a game.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Mar 26, 2010 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't want that at the beginning or end of a game either. :)
"Chicago Cubs baseball is on the air."-Pat Hughes
comparing
silva to marquis made me wonder. does playing for washington mean the end of hisplayoff appearence streak? hmmmm.
Well, I want to see Gorzelanny get a good shot.
He had some good peripherals last year, despite the bad ERA (and HR rate). And I say all this as a big fan of Marshall.
"What a lot of people don’t see is the tremendous amount of progress that has been made in the organization over the last few years. We have a lot of very talented guys coming up through the system. Jim has built an incredible scouting organization." - Tom Ricketts
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