Four Rookies Make the April 25-man Big Show roster
by Ivy Walls on Mar 28, 2010 8:49 PM CDT
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PrintFour rookies including Colvin and three relievers( Berg, Caridad and Russel) who made the April roster, this on top of last year's addition of Koyie Hill (a reclamation project) and starting pitcher Randy Wells, David Patton and Micah Hoffpauir who made the squad. All told Cubs have ten players on the 25 man roster who are considered "system players", including Carlos Zambrano, Carlos Marmol, Sean Marshall, Jeff Samardzija, Ryan Theriot, Mike Fontenot, plus Angel Guzman who is now DL'd.
Colvin actually won a spot with his spring training performance as did the three rookies in the pen. This does not include the promising futures of Starlan Castro, John Gaub or Jeff Gray, around the corner or the flame thowers of Andrew Cashner or Jay Jackson, and developing position player talents like Vitters, Castillo, Brett Jackson, Blarney, Hak-Ju Lee, or LaMahieu.
The question is SO WHAT? So what----a strong farm system produces a winning team over time. Cubs also are fast approaching an old team, either they win now or they have to break it up and retool fast. Twelve players were born in the 1970's, Derrick Lee (will turn 35 in September) is the oldest by five months over both Lilly and Soriano, while Fukudome and Byrd are turning 33 years old during the season. The question is even thought he Cubs have invested a ton of money in the OF, (the load is Soriano of course) Colvin is pushing that with production.
I guess I am happy to see the system producing players.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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And some of the best
are yet to come. Here’s to Tim Wilken having another solid draft in June.
ya... its great...
… if the players do well. Its also possible that three weeks into the season we’re going to be looking at a bullpen that is performing as one would expect an inexperienced pen to perform. Contending teams don’t tend to have bullpens like this.
I think there are two different issues at play here. The Cubs system has made big leaps forward and the work of Tim Wilken and Gary Hughes is putting the Cubs in position to transition in some younger players in the near future. That being said, I think part of the four rookies making the roster is due, in part, to Hendry overspending and not having the flexibility to add a few more players.
by dmlichte on Mar 28, 2010 9:21 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
dmlichte
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
sorry..
… but thats ridiculous. I’ll restrain myself from using the phrase or two that I’d like to right now, but all last season I was called pessimistic and a ledge jumper because I was concerned about various aspects of the club. I pointed out in my post that there are things to be optimistic about, but the fact that several key members of the Cubs 2010 bullpen were in the minors to start the 2009 campaign is a cause for concern.
Wouldn't a youth movement...
be the play if the team doesn’t envision a championship-caliber season though?
Marmol, Caridad, Guzman,
Grabow, Marshall — all were with the bigs last year.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Mar 29, 2010 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions
indeed
but thats not what I said. I said that
several key members of the Cubs 2010 bullpen were in the minors to start the 2009 campaign
Caridad started 2009 in the minors and is now the top RH set-up man. Guzman was in the bigs last year but that doesn’t help the 2010 bullpen because he’s injured. Berg spent most of 2009 in the minors, Russell spend all of 2009 in the minors. Samardzija has been between AAA and the majors, between the rotation and the pen… he is not an established reliever. Marshall has also been shuttled between the pen and rotation quite a bit and Marmol has been a closer for what, half a season?
I am not here to preach gloom and doom for the 2010 Cubs bullpen, but the issue of the Cubs youth was raised, and my point is that there are two sides to this. Teams expecting to battle for a world series don’t tend to go into the season with such an inexperienced bullpen. I understand the contention that we may as well go with youth over mediocre veteran arms and I’m fine with that… but if that doesn’t work out, the Cubs may find themselves with one of the worst bullpens in the league.
alright
I misread it a bit.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Mar 30, 2010 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
You said
Teams expecting to battle for a world series don’t tend to go into the season with such an inexperienced bullpen.
You mean like the 2009 Yankees, whose bullpen included David Robertson, Alfredo Aceves, Phil Coke and Phil Hughes?
Only Hughes had significant major league experience before 2009, and that was as a failed starter. The rest of them were rookies, with about as much experience as Esmailin Caridad and Justin Berg have right now.
The Cubs bullpen has three rookies and four veterans. When Ted Lilly comes back, James Russell is likely heading back to Iowa; either Carlos Silva or Tom Gorzelanny goes to the pen, giving it another experienced pitcher.
Care to rephrase that statement about experience?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
No, Al..
… I don’t care to rephrase my statement about experience. Glad that it worked for the Yankees, but I still stand by the statement that teams expecting to contend for the World Series don’t tend to go into the season with as much inexperience as the Cubs pen. The Yanks’ pen was also anchored by a Hall of Fame closer.
The Cubs pen may work out and thats great, but no one should be surprised if it implodes by the end of April. Again, if you’ll trace the genesis of this conversation, you’ll see that I didn’t come here to post gloom and doom, but there are two sides to this coin and both are worthy of being expressed here.
Of course.
My point was that there’s a recent example of a team that had an inexperienced bullpen who won the World Series; if I looked, I could probably find others.
It’s not as big a disaster as you think.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Except the Yankees have Rivera
The Cubs have an unproven Marmol as closer. I’d be a lot more comfortable with Rivera, Caridad, Berg, Russell and Grabow.
Well, of course we would.
My point, however, is that the Yankees setup corps was as inexperienced as the Cubs are now, a year ago. They did fine.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
dmlichte...
just having spring time optimism fun….
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
well...
… for future reference, I don’t know many people who find it fun being called pessimistic. Further, I’m tired of the mentality around this blog that being concerned about the team means you’re a ledge jumper or less of a Cub fan.
by dmlichte on Mar 29, 2010 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm with you
I’m hopeful for the season but I’m surely not saying this bullpen is a sure thing. Age/injuries and the bullpen are my biggest concerns for the season.
It does not make you less of fan.
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
by eths on Mar 30, 2010 10:46 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I think you're bringing up some very legit concerns.
I’m just not sure about whether your point about contending teams not having bullpens like the Cubs holds up. One would really have to look at all the contending teams over a given period and see how their bullpens were initially constructed and evolved over the season in question. I’m not necessarily saying you’re right or wrong, but I’d need to see some evidence that there’s never been any contenders (or very few) who went into the season with a mostly young bullpen.
Well said
However, Ivy was incorrect in listing Gray as a product of our system (although we got him for Fox, who was). Jeff does have a little experience, appearing in 24 games last year for Oakland. And he’s 28 years old. Just looked it up, and Caridad is 26, Berg turns 26 in June. Russell is 24 (and probably only up until Lilly comes back). Samardzija is 25.
So they’re inexperienced, as you say, but not all that young. The pen will need improvement through the year.
I am more optimistic about the pen for two main reasons.
1. The Cubs have an easy early schedule, and Ricketts will probably allow Hendry to add a pricey reliever in July.
2. Andrew Cashner. I know the club sees him as a starter, but last year he only threw 100 innings. I see him starting in Iowa until July, then coming up to be a setup man for the rest of this year. He gets @ 15 starts in the minors, then throws another 40 innings in the majors.
With a mid-season addition and the promotion of Cashner, the Cubs only need one or two of Caridad, Berg, Samardzija, and Gray to be very good. IMHO.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
Its springtime
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
No, it is good baseball
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 29, 2010 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions
I think the Cubs farm system has gotten an unfair share of criticism over the recent years.
It’s actually turned out quite a few ML players. Not Pujols great, but certainly many good ones. And several of these players were parlayed via trades into other current Cubs. Here’s a list of past and current Cubs who I saw come through Lansing…
Corey Patterson
Carlos Zambrano
Juan Cruz
Francis Beltran
Steve Smyth
Hee Seop Choi
Todd Wellemeyer
David Kelton
Sergio Mitre
Felix Sanchez
Mike Wuertz
Jason Dubois
Jon Leicester
Brendan Harris
Ronny Cedeno
Rich Hill
Adam Greenberg
Jermaine Van Buren
Ryan Theriot
Sean Marshall
Angel Guzman
Jae-Kuk Ryu
Renyel Pinto
Carlos Marmol
Juan Mateo
Ryan O’Malley
Buck Coats
Jose Reyes
Felix Pie
Rocky Cherry
Clay Rapada
Billy Petrick
Jake Fox
Carmen Pignatiello
Casey McGehee
When you look at the whole list, it’s not bad at all..
"Look, what do you want me to do?"
Seriously?
There are only 2 on that list that have put together anything like a long productive major league career. Some of these may have had a good year or two and others may have bounced around and been decent role players. There is no one on this list that anyone would consider “great” or hall of fame quality. To me, this list is an indictment of the farm system that Hendry has presided over (directly or indirectly) the last 15 years.
Maybe my standards are too high, but I’d like the Cubs to win a World Series, not just be good enough to contend for a wildcard.
The journey is the reward!
My standards of quality would be
on the order of 3000 at bats or 1000 IP. You can be good (though injured) with less, or bad with more. When I consider prospects, those are my benchmarks for legitimacy. Double them for quality.
define long
many of these guys are still cost-controlled by the Cubs or have signed long-term contracts.
Z, Theriot, Marshall, Marmol are all key parts of the Cubs today. Patterson, Wuertz, Cedeno, Pie, Fox, McGehee are all playing on other MLB teams. Guzman would be a key part of the bullpen if he weren’t on the DL. Hill was a credible threat for a whole.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Mar 30, 2010 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Standards
One study has an average players career at 5.6 years. There are a few guys on the list that have made it 5 years, but not many as consistent starters.
The 3k/1k standards sound reasonable.
I guess my point is that this isn’t a very good list, but as I said, maybe my standards are unreasonable. Just my opinion..
The journey is the reward!
Quantity does not equate to quality
I’d take half that number for a few more All-Star quality seasons from some Cubs prospects.
Every team can put a list like that together.
Very few of those people matter….
Maybe if we had a bullpen of
Cherry
Pignatiello
Rapada
Beltran
Pinto
Marmol
Petrick
Wuertz
Starters
Van buren
Mateo
Smyth
Zambrano
Wellemeyer
Hill
Infield
Choi
Fontinot
Theriot
McGehee
Catchers
Soto
Fox
Reyes
Bench
Coats
Kelton
Harris
Greenberg
Cedeno
Outfield
Pie
Patterson
Dubois
Wow would this team suck……Does anyone think this team would be good?
Most of the few that are decent are still here.
As I said before, all teams could do this.
Right, but...
… no team is made up completely of players from its farm system. Just not done. Successful teams have homegrown products, players acquired by trade, and smart free agent signings.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
True-such as Choi going for Lee.....It takes a good GM and scouting system to make it all work.
In the past that sometimes has been lacking. As far as the farm system it seems to be on the rise over the last few years, however, some of the free agent signings have been pretty bad. I wonder if Hendry is the one to take it to the next level.
Which, as Al points out, was part of my point.
I think the Cubs farm system has been unfairly criticized as being “barren” for years. I don’t believe this to to be case. Then again, it’s just my opinion.
"Look, what do you want me to do?"
I think...
… the Cubs would disagree with you. The fact that Tim Wilken is now running the Cubs scouting department shows this. Things are starting to turn around under Wilken, and the future looks pretty good, and thats in large part due to Wilken.
Right.
You can’t expect immediate results from switching farm directors. It’s been four years now under Wilken, and I think in the next 2-3 years, we will see excellent major league results from what he has done.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
sounds reasonable..
very few on that list have achieved even those modest goals..
The journey is the reward!
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