Cubs fear surgery for Guzman
Dying to hear what the half-full crowd has to say about this one. I fear the Cubs are going to need to bring Baghdad Bob out of retirement to spin it.
about 2 years ago
Damen Jackson
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It's not good
Mostly I feel bad for Angel.
But it’s too early in Spring Training to draw conclusions about the bullpen. Cashner would probably be effective in that slot if they go that route. Chances are we’ll see Hendry pay extra for someone like Jason Frasor now. In other words, it won’t hurt us for 2010, but it will hurt down the road because we gave up prospects.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
Reading the leaves recently...
I question whether the Cubs actually have the money for Frasor, but we’ll see. And yeah, I’m pretty sad for Guzman as well.
But what really frosts me is that this is another Cubs medical report that’s gone BOOM! in everyone’s hand like a firecracker. It’s a bit upsetting. I’d rather they simply say “no comment” at this point.
by Damen Jackson on Mar 6, 2010 7:10 AM CST up reply actions
Well,
it wasn’t my point, so much as a side comment. But it’s reaching the point where I feel like you can’t take the club’s player status reports seriously anymore.
by Damen Jackson on Mar 6, 2010 7:23 AM CST up reply actions
REACHING the point?
I’d say it’s been there for 5 years.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 6, 2010 8:13 AM CST up reply actions
what bothers me ...
is Lou’s comment that they have been concerned for “four-five days” and that Calero signed TWO days ago.
Uh, yep...
That was one of those tea leaves that I was referring to.
by Damen Jackson on Mar 6, 2010 8:23 AM CST up reply actions
Considering that EVERYONE stayed away from Calero
and he signed a pretty small deal, I still think there are injury worries with him. I’d imagine if the Cubs sign another reliever they want it to be someone that can be as sure as possible isn’t hurt.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
correct
signing an injury threat to replace an injury threat isnt smart
by jesus christos on Mar 7, 2010 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
I'm generally a half-full type
This sucks.
hat blunt enough?
Oh, man.
Good thing we were worrying over nothing the past couple weeks, I guess.
Good thing we passed on offering Calero a MINOR-LEAGUE DEAL.
Ask yourself this.
29 teams passed on him and ONE team offered him a minor league deal.
And that doesn’t raise red flags about him? It does to me.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It doesn't raise enough flags ...
that I wouldn’t offer him the same minor-league deal — given the Cubs current bullpen situation. That is, unless they’re close to getting someone else.
Or how about this
The Mets was the one team that did sign him…and I don’t trust anything their scouts/management believes in.
Mets fans could say the same thing about us my friend
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
“Guzman facing possible shoulder surgery
Cubs’ hard-luck reliever had MRI Friday and ballclub fears worst.”
Lupus? Is it Lupus?
"There's more to life than profits...like, you know, slurpees and stuff." ~Randy Marsh
It's never Lupus
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 6, 2010 8:16 AM CST up reply actions
pretty much
sums up his whole career.too bad as he did a good job when healthy.
The management
I’m not surprised at all. For whatever reason, the higher ups always try to conceal players injuries until it is time for them to play. Then all of a sudden they will need surgery or rehab etc. It was the same with Prior and Woody. The spring trainings in 04’ and 05’ I believe. Both were having minor setbacks but expected to be ready by opening day. Neither were. All I am saying is, us Cubs fans are not stupid. DO NOT LIE TO US! If the player is injured, tell us. There is nothing gained by hiding it. All it does is get us aggravated to know that it was being hidden while viable relievers such as Park and Calero are signing elsewhere for peanuts.
OT
I can’t believe Al let your user name fly.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 6, 2010 9:16 AM CST up reply actions
I missed that one.
However, to address the poster’s point, management is different now than it was in 2004 and 2005. The two situations are not comparable.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I actually agree with the poster's point
Hendry is still around.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Mar 6, 2010 9:26 AM CST up reply actions
Here's the thing.
Injuries don’t necessarily all of a sudden appear and become obvious as to their extent. Maybe all these injuries DID seem “not so serious” when first uncovered, only to be shown to be worse later.
That is within the realm of possibility, right? Why assume the team is lying?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I agree, Al
Medicine can be an inexact science. I don’t think the Cubs are in the business of routinely “hiding” serious injuries or misleading people about them. (Not to say it hasn’t happened at all.)
Too bad for Guzman, but life goes on. Bullpen arms are fungible. If you want to jump off the ledge about this, be my guest.
Someone else will have an opportunity now.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Mar 6, 2010 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
Not necessarily lying.
Just hiding the full truth. Meaning one day he can go from sore to needing surgery. IMHO, I feel with all the specialists and trainers at their disposal they have a pretty good idea of the health of the players. It seems as though they try to keep it under cover until they have no choice. Example, with Prior, it was just stiffness, only needs a couple days. We’ll have him take it slower. He should still be ready on Opening day. Then maybe late April, than May, next thing you know he is out for the season. I just think they had to know that would be the case and should be upfront with the fans. Kind like if you tell a small lie, you have to continue adding lies to cover the first one until it snowballs out of control. Never a good idea.
by ronniewoowoo2 on Mar 6, 2010 1:50 PM CST up reply actions
I think you can take the tinfoil hat off now.
As I said, this kind of thing is an inexact science. Maybe at first it DOES appear that it’s “a couple of days”, only to find out later that it’s worse. That’s not a conspiracy or lying or hiding truth, it’s finding out facts.
I think you’d probably find, if you looked closely, that every single professional sports team — not just the Cubs, and not just baseball — does this.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If it does appear...
…to be less than significant at first, do we really need to hear about it? Somebody reporting “arm stiffness” shouldn’t blow up the internet.
Report it when it’s actually newsworthy.
"With Chance on first, and Evers on third,
Great things from the Cubs will soon be heard."
D'oh!
I should’ve read further down.
"With Chance on first, and Evers on third,
Great things from the Cubs will soon be heard."
lol
ya, well my name is Ron so that was as far as my imagination took me.
by ronniewoowoo2 on Mar 6, 2010 1:38 PM CST up reply actions
A mountain out of a molehill
Piniella said they have been concerned for a few days. So what? Should he come out everyday and give the concerned list?
He had the MRI on Friday and let the news out. It’s not like they hid the MRI.
Not sure how you can say that
It’s unusual to go from muscle soreness and out for a few days, to we’re not optimistic before actually getting the test results back, at least not unless you had some idea about the severity to begin with. It’s an eyebrow raiser, to be sure.
by Damen Jackson on Mar 6, 2010 10:22 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Really?
I’m not sure that’s so “unusual”. Makes sense to me: at first you think it’s soreness that would go away, because some soreness is normal for all pitchers.
Obviously, if it then doesn’t get better, you have the MRI and find out if it’s worse.
I’m not sure why this makes you put the tinfoil conspiracy hat on.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Which would be fine,
Except that as I understand it, the article was written before the MRI results got back. So maybe soreness was always a bit more than soreness all along.
by Damen Jackson on Mar 6, 2010 10:32 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Or maybe it wasn't.
Seriously, this isn’t a conspiracy, I don’t think. It’s an inexact science.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
We're talking about
21st century Western medicine. It’s fairly exact. And in it, you don’t go from “sore shoulder” to “we’re not optimistic about his prospects” minus diagnostic imaging tests inside of a week.
And do me a favor? Spare us the tinfoil hat nonsense, really. We’re discussing a possible obscurification of the truth on a baseball player’s status, not whether aliens exist. I think we can have this conversation without attempting to marginalize those who disagree with you.
by Damen Jackson on Mar 6, 2010 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
Every time you get a pain
of any kind, do you rush to the doctor and get an MRI?
Or do you wait to see if it goes away or intensifies?
If you do go every time, it’s no wonder health-care costs in this country are so high.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Mar 6, 2010 3:37 PM CST up reply actions
Uh...okay
Neither of those questions has anything whatsoever to do with this exchange, but I appreciate you trying to add something to the conversation.
In case you weren’t completely clear, we were discussing 1) whether there was transparency and candor in sharing this injury with the press and fan base, 2) given that – at least according to Bruce Levine – this issue traces back to last fall, whether the Cubs might have better hedged their bets in the bullpen, and 3) whether it is actually possible for the Cubs to make a dour statement about Guzman’s health status, without actually having the diagnostics back, while proclaiming that this was only a sore shoulder less than a week ago.
by Damen Jackson on Mar 6, 2010 3:52 PM CST up reply actions
I know exactly what it was about, thanks
and to me, at least, it smacks of a combination of tinfoil hat and a need to point a finger and say “A-ha! This is all your fault (fill in the Cubs executive’s name here)! I always knew it!”
Maybe you should talk to a doctor and see how diagnoses are made. It might be revealing.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Mar 6, 2010 4:35 PM CST up reply actions
I agree with you, NBF.
There seem to be some here who want to be quick to blame Cubs management people and accuse them of lying, when the facts may very well be different.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Wow
Obscurification? Sorry, the Cubs didn’t call a news conference for the team physician to go through Guzman’s health in minute detail.
Still seems like a mountain out of a molehill to me (and that is even if they held back the truth for a few days). What difference does it make anyway?
Guzman is/was by no means a consolidated reliever.
He was good last season, and that’s it. I feel for the kid, but it’s not like the Cubs are losing Goose Gossage here. Hope Big Jim doesn’t go out and sells the farm for some other iffy arm out there.
I'm not sure I understand the term..
but I don’t think that you can marginalize Guzman’s importance to this team. The Cubs effectively banked on them getting Angel into a late-inning role for the season, which was a big bet. If he’s unavailable, not only do you likely have up to half your bullpen being non-prospect rookies and limited-experience veterans, but possibly even a rookie in that role.
It isn’t about his talent level, but what the Cubs were/are hoping to get from him this season.
by Damen Jackson on Mar 6, 2010 8:54 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Sure, but
Guzman only had one season as a set-up man under the belt. It’s not a great advantage on Esmalín or whomever. Relievers are a crapshoot, mostly. While it sucks that Guzman will not contribute, I don’t believe he would’ve been leaps and bounds ahead of his already-signed-to-the-team peers.
The one season he had ...
is more than most of the guys in the mix for the pen (other than Marmol, Grabow and the loser(s) of the fifth-starter derby) have combined.
The bullpen could be what keeps us from having a good year.
Jim needs to bring someone in with experience. The pen seemed shaky even before this.
By the way is anyone shocked that Guzman is injured?
Funny I saw this last night
and thought I missed it on BCB and did not want to get in trouble for posting it again.
Not good.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
Tough break
but these things happen, (remember Prior?). I think one of the young kids will step it up, Cashner is a good bet, like Al says.
I am not worried about it now.
"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will
This is what I was saying the other day.
The ledge jumpers are looking for ANY reason to freak out. If the Cubs bomb a spring training game, if the Angel gets hurt, if we don’t have a master plan, etc…
Here’s the thing, the loss of Angel hurts. But I really like this bullpen and I think guys like Caridad and Berg can take his place. The University of Iowa football team has a phrase “next man in.” If someone goes down (like our number one running back before the year starts), the next guy steps in. It’d be nice to get that same sort of mentality with this team and fans.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Mar 6, 2010 10:57 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Good way to put it
Last year, the Cubs opened the regular season with nobody on the DL for the first time in decades. How did that work out?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Mar 6, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
The good and bad of our bullpen
Listen our bullpen is young and inexperienced. That can either be a plus or negative. However, at least in the beginning of the year if this team has confidence, they can outpitch most of the other teams. Remember, the batters don’t know what to expect from the bullpen. Let’s make that our advantage.
Plus we no longer have Aaron Heilman!
Exactly
My only fear is that our bullpen is so inexperienced they can’t be durable enough in August/September. But we’ll see where the team is at that time. Effective bullpen help is hopefully the easiest type of mid-season trade.
Or using a potential starter as a stop gap.
Look at what the cards did with wainwright
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Mar 6, 2010 1:30 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Heilman, Gregg, and now Guzman
Those are a lot of innings to replace from last year, and not all of them were bad.
Innings filled by Cashner-Caridad-Shark/Marshall? I could live with that gamble to start April if they all pitch fairly well in spring.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Mar 7, 2010 12:31 AM CST up reply actions
Grabow or Gordz could eat many as well
Sunday Feb 28 at 7 PM CST free webcast of the live taping of The Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
No need to fear.
Once Theodore Roosevelt Lilly is back they won’t need a bullpen. He’ll take care of everything.
"Chicago Cubs baseball is on the air."-Pat Hughes
- Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
- Germans?
- Forget it, he's rolling.
by Endrick on Mar 6, 2010 1:27 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
GREEN'ED!
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
forget how this affects the Cubs
we know it wont be good missing him. I am more concerned how this will affect Guzman. He finally had a good season where he was productive without any major problem (2009) and then this happens. He has fought thru so much, but like anything else in life eventually a person says “enough is enough” and throws in the towel. I hope that Guzman is able to be productive again and that this injury doesnt force him to retire due to not being able to play again, or due to not being offered a contract due to teams being scared off. I would hope that all the chances Chad Fox got, that Hendry does the same for Guzman, who had much better stuff (as long as Guzman can throw a ball).
GUzman best luck with surgery and rehab, and I hope like hell to see you again pitching for the Cubs.
Sunday Feb 28 at 7 PM CST free webcast of the live taping of The Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
by Cubbie-Tim on Mar 6, 2010 4:57 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
when Len & Bob talked to Hendry about it
Hendry was suggesting that it was possible Guzman might be back in a few months.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Mar 6, 2010 8:42 PM CST up reply actions
A few months into the season or a few months from now?
Some men learn through what they read. Some men learn through what they're told. Some men have to piss on the railroad tracks. And some men keep on pissin'.
um… a few months into the season, I think.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Mar 7, 2010 9:27 AM CST up reply actions
back to where
Iowa, West Tenn, Chicago, etc?
Sunday Feb 28 at 7 PM CST free webcast of the live taping of The Austin Variety Show www.austinvarietyshow.com/
A few months is pretty vague
and COULD in this situations, is often code for “if absolutely everything goes right” which isn’t a real strong bet considering Guzman’s injury problems
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
oh, I agree
his tone of voice wasn’t exactly the most positive we’ve heard, But I think they all want him to somehow succeed.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Mar 7, 2010 9:27 AM CST up reply actions
Has this link been posted already?
It’s stating that this most likely is career-threatening.
http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/03/cubs-guzman-suffers-career-threatening-injury.html
Sad.
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by digitalbenjamin on Mar 6, 2010 10:05 PM CST reply actions
Tough break
Guzman has fought through a lot. I was really hoping this would be his breakthrough year. I feel for the kid.
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