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Piniella’s Legacy and the 2010 Season

Three current MLB managers are a lock for the Hall of Fame: Bobby Cox, Joe Torre, and Lou Piniella’s high school pal and ultimate clubhouse lawyer, Smilin’ Tony LaRussa. Several others, including Mike Scioscia, Terry Francona, Jim Leyland, Cito Gaston and – like it or not – Dusty Baker, probably are only a league pennant or two away from enshrinement.

And then, of course, there is Piniella himself, whose singular achievements in Cincinnati and Seattle place him squarely in line behind the three obvious inductees, and slightly ahead of those candidates who may have to wait like Dick Williams to one day, perhaps, be invited to sneak in the back door at Cooperstown. As he rests on the cusp, I imagine the last thing Lou wants is to spend his retirement waiting for the call that never comes, watching some of these other presently less-accomplished managers take their places in the Hall next to Stengel, McGraw, and Piniella’s old nemesis, Earl Weaver.

It’s sometimes assumed that the biggest reason Lou came to Chicago was to bask in the glory and certain HOF enshrinement that will be his if he can manage even a mere Series appearance by the Cubs. If he needed the money in 2006, he probably doesn’t need it now, so why else would he return after last year’s disappointments?

I think we can reasonably assume that Lou’s 2009 malaise was only temporary, most likely a byproduct of the stunning playoff failures of ‘08, and the even more stunning panic moves that he and Hendry made immediately prior to last season. By the end of that 8-game losing streak in May, Lou must have realized that Soriano, Soto and Z were in no condition to play for a championship, that Gregg was no closer, and that Bradley was every bit the head case he had been so many other places.

From that point on, I think Lou managed defensively, certainly not giving up on the team, but basically playing for 2010 and the new owner-in-waiting. By late May, he must have recognized that the 2009 Cubs had the perfect makeup to produce a 68-94 disaster which, combined with Piniella’s failures in Tampa Bay, might have sent Lou not only into retirement, but also to the back of that HOF managerial waiting line.

Make no mistake, 83 wins last year was an achievement that required Piniella to show enormous restraint on the field, in the clubhouse, and probably in the front office. In addition to saving his job, he caught a couple of breaks with the emergence of Randy Wells, and in the willingness of Milton Bradley to run himself out of town. Now, the stink of the ‘08 playoffs has worn off, team chemistry apparently is good, and at least Soto and Z are primed for a comeback. Even more importantly, Lou himself has every reason to be primed for his own comeback as a tactician and motivator.

 

HOF managers generally fall into two categories: Dynasty Builders like Mack, McGraw, Anson, Stengel and McCarthy, and Miracle Workers like Durocher, McKechnie, and Dick Williams. Oddly enough, three managerial miracles usually are enough for induction and, in Lou’s case, millions can verify the two he already has performed with the 1990 Reds and the 2001 Mariners.

Given his 45-year record of perseverance and the enormous personal motivation he must feel to succeed this year, the odds for his own comeback seem likely. In many ways his career as both player and manager is similar to that of Stengel – probably the greatest of all managers – who had his two best seasons at ages 66 and 68. But if I’m wrong about Lou, we should know early, when it will be Durocher ‘72 all over again.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Well, I certainly care less about Lou's legacy than the Cubs winning, but

you are probably right – if he gets this bunch to the WS, then he’s in. I’d knid of hoped that this would have happened by now, with the team and payroll he inherited – that’s not all on him though. Not that this is the year, but it should be for the sake of Lou and Cubs fans alike.

by DisCUBbobulated on Mar 8, 2010 11:21 PM CST reply actions  

I don't think Lou Piniella is a Hall of Fame manager

What sticks out to me are the 2001 Mariners and 2008 Cubs. Both teams should have made a World Series, but ultimately fell short. The 2008 Cubs flamed in dramatic fashion so much that I actually wanted Lou fired for his inability to manage a winner in the postseason. The 1990 Reds are old news and even Bobby Cox managed to get his Braves teams to multiple World Series even though he only has one ring to show for it.

Then there’s the fact that Piniella simply doesn’t measure up. Tony La Russa, Bobby Cox and Joe Torre are current 3rd, 4th and 5th respectively on the all-time managerial wins list. Lou Piniella is in a distant 14th on the all-time wins list. He’s not in the same class as any of them and while the 1990 Reds is a positive on his resume, we can’t forget the failure of the 2001 Mariners or the flameouts with the 2007 and 2008 Cubs.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Mar 9, 2010 1:04 AM CST reply actions  

What you say is true,

but Lou has won 1,784 games in his managing career. That’s ahead of names like Earl Weaver, Tommy Lasorda, and Cap Anson – all of whom are already in the Hall. The only manager with more wins who is not in the Hall is Gene Mauch – who never won a pennant. If we are using managerial wins alone as a measuring stick, then (IMO) there is no solid reason why Lou should not be admitted.

"If I did not laugh, I should die." -- Abraham Lincoln

by Mondodude on Mar 9, 2010 3:01 AM CST up reply actions  

Further...

… Lou also won several playoff series that his teams were NOT expected to win in Seattle, notably in 1995 and 2000.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 9, 2010 6:54 AM CST up reply actions  

If he manages the Cubs to a WS title

he is in

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Mar 10, 2010 11:07 AM CST up reply actions  

probably

our best and most colorfull manager since durocher. 1st 1st and 2nd. not too shabby. lets see what happens this year.

by NOMAR on Mar 9, 2010 4:24 AM CST reply actions  

There's no way Dusty Baker is making the HOF as a manager.

His winning percentage is .520 and dropping. He has 1 pennant, no Series titles. 3 total division titles. Under .500 in his last 2 jobs with the Cubs and Reds.

Lou, for instance, is at .537, with a WS title, and 6 division titles.

And memorialized forever for 2 reasons – first, rightly or wrongly, as one of the poster boys for managers who “looked the other way” during the Steroid Era, because Barry and Sammy were boosting his win totals. Secondly, (rightly) for just hilariously bungling the 2002 WS to the point he got fired afterward – giving out game balls before the game was won, letting his tiny child run all over the field, and so on.

I think that Lou would get in long, long before Dusty.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Mar 9, 2010 8:35 AM CST reply actions  

IMO...

…determining whether someone is a HOF manager or not is a very very difficult thing to do.

So much of any managers record simply depends on the players he has had (and how much money his team spends) to field a talented club. Look at Torre’s career before he got the Yankee job. If he was never hired by the Yankees, do you think he would be a sure fire HOF guy right now?

Just like anything else, there are good managers and bad managers, but even the good ones aren’t going to win much without the right players.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Mar 9, 2010 8:49 AM CST reply actions  

But you can't take away what's there

If you remove the good, you have to remove the bad as well. The fact is he managed four World Series champions. While it’s great, I place Tony La Russa ahead of Joe Torre because Tony had a winning record everywhere he managed and he has won a World Series with two different teams. Bobby Cox falls into the third tier beneath Torre and La Russa because Cox only has one ring to show for all those consecutive years the Braves made the playoffs.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Mar 9, 2010 8:56 AM CST up reply actions  

The same thing could have been said about Casey Stengel before he managed the Yankees.

He was viewed as a clown, a manager of bad teams. Suddenly he became a genius when he became Yankee manager. Was it him, or the players?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 9, 2010 9:01 AM CST up reply actions  

Of course, to be a great manager Casey needed the foundation of DiMag, Mantle and Berra...

Always a fine tactician, Casey’s special genius with the Yankees was seen in the way he handled spare parts, which often included a mediocre pitching staff.

"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62

"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64

by ernaga on Mar 9, 2010 9:50 AM CST up reply actions  

Wasn't it Warren Spahn...

…that joked that he had the pleasure of working with Casey before and after he was a genius?

At what point do you give all the credit to the players? When you start consistently managing a winner, then you deserve some credit. It’s why Casey Stengel, Joe McCarthy, Miller Huggins and Joe Torre are always going to be highly regarded. You can’t reach that level of success and not be looked at favorably when Cooperstown comes calling. Does it mean that I think the people I named were the greatest managers of all time based on those World Series wins? Not at all. McCarthy certainly deserves to be mentioned higher than the rest, but that’s another discussion.

I’m certainly not going to hold the Tampa Bay record against Piniella because he did manage them to what was at one point their best season. He just strikes me as someone who was a very good regular season manager and his postseason failures as a manager are very glaring. His latest postseason failures are among the most mind boggling, which leaves you wondering if he had those Cubs teams ready for the postseason at all.

So is it the players or the manager? You might be able to get away with blaming the players for one year. In 2001, those Mariners did at least get past the first round. That team was good enough to win a World Series, but couldn’t get past the Yankees. Then came the 2007 Cubs and we all remember the infamous call to pull Zambrano so he could be rested for a game that never happened. The Cubs were swept and then swept again the following year despite having a National League leading record. The 2001 Mariners had the best record in the majors that year. Once, you can blame the players. When this becomes too common, you have to look at the manager and wonder.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Mar 9, 2010 9:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Spahnie's first tour with Stengel on the '42 Braves lasted only a few games,

and ended abruptly when Spahn refused Casey’s direct order to drop or hit Pee Wee Reese. As Stengel walked out to the mound, he called Spahn gutless and told him he’d never make it in the big leagues. During their second go-round 23 years later on the ’65 Mets, Stengel had no choice but to admit that sending Spahnie back to the minors had been the biggest mistake of his career.

"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62

"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64

by ernaga on Mar 11, 2010 11:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Which would you take???

An average manager with a world beater roster, or a real good manager with an average roster?

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Mar 9, 2010 9:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Depends on who the manager was, I suppose.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 9, 2010 10:19 AM CST up reply actions  

I just saw the Capital of Baseball on MLB and he was on it of course...

he was a pretty crazy guy. Seems too, he never thought Mantle gave it his all….it sort of reminded me of Zambrano, not that Z is of Mantle’s caliber but how can you tell a player is giving it his all or not?

by cooliogirl47 on Mar 9, 2010 9:57 AM CST up reply actions  

I'd place...

…a whole bunch of guys above Torre.

IMO, the best managers over the last 30 years or so are:

LaRussa
Cox
Sciosia (sp)

To me, there are a lot of other good ones, but these guys are the cream of the crop.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Mar 9, 2010 10:00 AM CST up reply actions  

As they used to say in the Jordan era...

It’s a Ring Thing. Torre is in because of the Four WS Rings. Period. You may not think he did much for that team, but that’s almost impossible to judge from afar. Some seriously competitive guys on the Yankees adored Torre, so he must’ve done something right to get them all those titles.

by Orval Overall on Mar 9, 2010 10:37 AM CST up reply actions  

I understand...

…the ring thing, but a lot factors go into that and many are beyond a managers control. Not unlike a player who had a great career, but some people say they weren’t a winner because they never won a championship – something I disagree with big time.

Regarding being adored, I never confuse players liking a coach with how good they are at their job. Many of the most successful coaches/managers of all time were not exactly loved by their players, so I tend to ignore whether they are liked. By the way, most players aboslutely loved Dusty Baker as well.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Mar 9, 2010 10:43 AM CST up reply actions  

You think guys like Paul O'Neill and Derek Jeter

would settle for merely being likeable? The adoration from ridiculously competitive guys comes because they know how important he was to their WS victories. If he was just along for the ride, you’d know about it.

by Orval Overall on Mar 10, 2010 1:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Torre probably took the LA job because of the Ring Thing.

As a player who was “Santo good,” he already had endured the regret of being not quite good enough for the Hall. After being eased-out by the Yankees, I imagine he was looking for some insurance to bolster his managerial credentials. Whether or not he needed it, the Cubs certainly helped him pad his resume.

"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62

"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64

by ernaga on Mar 9, 2010 10:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Torre was a HoF hybrid before the LA job.

The combination of his playing career and what he did for the Yankees would have gotten him in.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 9, 2010 11:08 AM CST up reply actions  

No question...

…managers get in by wins and losses and he certainly had enough big ones to be a synch to get in.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Mar 9, 2010 11:23 AM CST up reply actions  

Don't Forget About His Braves Days

The only times the Braves contended between 1969 and 1991 was when Torre was managing them in 1982 and 1983. The Braves won the NL West in 1982 and only finished 3 games out in 1983.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Mar 9, 2010 11:33 AM CST up reply actions  

New category

FanEpic… Very nicely done.

by daily2b on Mar 9, 2010 11:48 AM CST via mobile reply actions  

Thank you.

"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62

"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64

by ernaga on Mar 10, 2010 9:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Piniella's legacy?

As a former unabashed supporter of Sweet Lou, it pains me to say he is a liability for the Cubs at present. It’s been clear since the downward spiral of the 2009 season began that Piniella is tired and doesn’t really want to be here. He’s been phonin’ it in for awhile now. You can hear it in his fumbling words…you can see it in his body language.

Hall of Fame manager? No. He has a nice managerial legacy, but that legacy was signficantly compromised by his less than stellar attention span in Tampa Bay and now with the Cubs.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Mar 9, 2010 11:59 AM CST reply actions  

Politely disagree...

Lou is a HOF manager right now as we speak… his winning percentage and reputation in MLB is of high enough percentage and stature that he is in my opinion a lock.

I'm a truth teller, I'm a risk taker, I'm like Johnny Cash - I walk the line...

by Jimmyeatworld on Mar 9, 2010 6:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I wouldn't call him a lock...

….but if I had to guess, he does get in.

He has a lot going for him; the New York years (never hurts HOF chances) and although he only won one WS, he won a lot of games and took teams to the playoffs on numerous occassions.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Mar 9, 2010 11:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Hall of Fame managers if they were to retire today???

Bobby Cox
Tony LaRussa
Joe Torre

Someday perhaps making the list???

Ron Gardenhire
Mike Scioscia

But both those guys need to log a lot more time and taste a lot more success.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Mar 9, 2010 12:11 PM CST reply actions  

Terry Francona?

He still needs to log a lot more time and taste some more success, but I would put him on the “someday perhaps making the list?” list.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Mar 9, 2010 12:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Two World Series wins in Boston will carry a ton of weight.

He’s second all-time in wins with Boston, and if he leaves there as No. 1 in wins with 2 World Series, he’s a shoe-in, IMO.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Bill Potter on Mar 9, 2010 9:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Plus, Francona is only 51.

If the Red Sox continue to contend, he could manage there for another 15 years — maybe win several more WS. If he does, he’ll be a lock.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 10, 2010 7:34 AM CST up reply actions  

I would agree.

The only thing that will hold him back is his health – he’s had some issues over the years, but I would say he stands a great chance of election.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Bill Potter on Mar 10, 2010 9:43 AM CST up reply actions  

If Lou can get this team to win the World Series

then he should be enshrined immediately because this team, as currently assembled, is not among the top ten teams in baseball.

I actually think his tenure with the Cubs has hurt rather than helped his reputation. He had, by far, the most talented team in the division in 2007 and 2008 and all those teams could do was win the division. Literally. They failed to win a single playoff game. Piniella should be embarassed.

Last year, virtually every prognosticator picked the Cubs to win the division. They were, once again, the most talented team on paper in the division. Sure, they had some injuries but Piniella did absolutely nothing impressive to adjust. And as much as people like to harp on Bradley, he was exactly should have been expected. Ron Washington gave future managers a blueprint of how to deal with Bradley and Piniella ignored it. And sure enough, Bradley’s problems returned.

Long story short, in three years with the Cubs, the best thing Lou Piniella has done was go nuts in June 2007, seemingly inspiring the team. And when the best thing a manager does in three years is throw a tantrum, that doesn’t make look like anything resembling a Hall of Famer.

by Holtzmaniac on Mar 9, 2010 5:29 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

This makes no sense to me:

“this team, as currently assembled, is not among the top ten teams in baseball.”

“Last year, . . . they were, once again, the most talented team on paper in the division”

Uh…. what? What’s changed from 09/10 in terms of talent? The OF went from Soriano, Fukudome, Bradley in to Soriano, Byrd, Fukudome. If there’s even a drop-off there, and I dont’ think so, its a marginal one at best. The IF is exactly the same if not better because Baker is competing with Fontenot. The pitching rotation is nearly the same, except they don’t have Harden. The bullpen is nearly the same except in place of Marmol/Gregg at the top you have Grabow/Marmol.

Sorry, but at some point the ridiculousness needs to end. Lou had very talented teams in 07/08 and they played like it. He had a very talented team last year and they didn’t play like it. He has a very talented team this year, and whether they play like it or not remains to be seen.

by Orval Overall on Mar 10, 2010 1:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Some clarity

There are 24 baseball teams not in the NL Central. Therefore, it is possible, although certainly unlikely, that the best team in the division is the 25th best team in baseball. In short, you are comparing a statement regarding the Cubs place in the division and the Cubs place in MLB and combining them in a way that makes it confusing for you. The statements should be taken separately.

So your question – “What’s changed from 09/10 in terms of talent” is not an appropriate response to those two statements.

As far as the first statement goes, PECOTA has 19 teams finishing with a better record than the Cubs. You can argue with their methodology if you want, but I think you’d have a tough time making a case for the Cubs as a top 10 MLB team this year.

As far as the second statement goes, yes, at the beginning of the season (which is when paper talent counts for more than the games on the field), the Cubs were the best team in the division.

I did not get into whether they are the best team, on paper, in the division this year so your question about what changed was not a natural one based on what I wrote. But since you asked it, I will answer. And the answer is, in terms of expectations, plenty. The big bats are all another year older. They’ve lost Harden, who was expected to pitch well last year. They’ve lost Lilly for at least a while and who knows how quickly or well he’ll rebound. Expectations for Soto this year are down from where they were at this point last year.

This is not to say this team cannot win. Come Opening Day, paper expectations no longer matter. But anyone who thinks this team is likely to make it to the postseason is not reaching that conclusion based on sound logic.

by Holtzmaniac on Mar 10, 2010 4:19 PM CST up reply actions  

He took this team

to back to back division titles for the first time in decades, and three .500+ seasons in a row. I don’t see how that hurts his chances. I think he gets in. Not first ballot, but in.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 10, 2010 10:24 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

Agreed on the "don't see how it hurts his chances" part.

I think he probably needs another WS, or 3-4 more division titles, to cinch it.

by Orval Overall on Mar 10, 2010 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

well,

I’m fine with him doing those things. :D

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 10, 2010 2:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Ozzie wants in

There is a new article on ESPN.com about how Ozzie’s goal is to make the hall of fame as a manager. Sort of topical for this thread.

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra

by vonde6 on Mar 10, 2010 10:45 AM CST reply actions  

It's possible...

… that if Ozzie manages long enough, wins enough games as a manager, and leads his team to several WS, he could do it.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 10, 2010 11:08 AM CST up reply actions  

He's a very good candidate if he doesn't talk his way out of the game.

He was very young to win that WS. The big risk is that he goes the Bobby Valentine road and makes himself unhirable in a major market, i.e., by one of the teams that could actually win a WS someday.

by Orval Overall on Mar 10, 2010 1:48 PM CST up reply actions  

I doubt Ozzie is hirable by anyone other than the White Sox.

It works for them because of the relationship he has with Jerry Reinsdorf and Ken Williams, and because he is beloved by White Sox fans.

He wouldn’t have any of those things with any other team.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 10, 2010 1:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

But it’s not like Ozzie is getting more outrageous. It seems to me that he’s achieved Bobby Cox in Atlanta status in terms of him being in his current position as long as he wants.

by Holtzmaniac on Mar 10, 2010 4:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure about that.

Atlanta is about as laid-back a sports market as there is, and I think as long as the Braves were winning, I don’t know how much Bobby Cox was called out on not winning more WS. In a major market, despite all his success, Cox would have had a lot more critics than it Apathetic Atlanta, where the status quo is the rule of the day. Not to disparage his accomplishments, because that many consecutive postseason appearances is amazing.

But getting back to Ozzie, the thing that Ozzie has that Cox does not is a hated crosstown rival to use as a measuring stick. Kenny Williams absolutely hates the Cubs, and makes no bones about it. If there were a couple of years in a row where the Cubs were contenders and the Sox were not, Ozzie would be on the hot seat big time. There is no doubt that the current Sox brass despises and resents the Cubs and Cub fans much more than vise-a-versa. Ozzie definitely does not like the Cubs, but he also likes to talk smack just to get under Cub fans’ skin. I thnk with Kenny Williams, it’s genuine, unadulterated hatred toward the Cubs.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Mar 11, 2010 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Why do you think it starts with Williams?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 11, 2010 12:24 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think it starts with Williams.

I think Reinsdorf hates the Cubs too. I’m just saying Williams makes the hiring decisions for the manager and coaches, and he seems to be more vocal than anyone in his distain for all things Cubs.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Mar 11, 2010 12:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Except Ozzie was Reinsdorf's hire.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 11, 2010 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Couple things...

…The culture of the Sox organization is really a mirror of Jerry Reinsdorf. The man loathes the Cubs like nothing you could ever imagine and everyone in the organization follows suit.

The other thing is this, he absolutely loves Ozzie Guillen and he bought a boatload of goodwill by helping to win the Chairman a WS. I think Reinsdorf thinks the same about Williams, but much more so about Guillen. I’d bet, Williams will leave the Sox before Guillen does.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Mar 11, 2010 12:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Couldn't agree more.

The Sox organization walks around with a chip on its shoulder from the top down. You’d think they could have gotten rid of it after 2005, but nope. Still there.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 11, 2010 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe we are lucky

That our team’s problems can be solved as easily as a world series win?

Just kidding, but you are both right, there is no way to get that chip off of the White Sox shoulder.

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra

by vonde6 on Mar 11, 2010 1:42 PM CST up reply actions  

That chip...

…is surgically implanted in every Sox employee’s shoulder.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Mar 11, 2010 2:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure does seem that way.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 11, 2010 3:44 PM CST up reply actions  

How does a topic of Lou's Legacy...

… morph into the usual Bull (Feces) Sox bashing?

"In time you can turn these obsessions into careers...Hurry Down Doomsday the bugs are taking over." - Elvis Costello

by DrCrawdad on Mar 11, 2010 8:15 PM CST up reply actions  

LMAO....strange, isn't it?

" It’s spring fever - you don’t know what it is you want, but it fairly makes your heart ache, you want it so. "--Mark Twain

by cooliogirl47 on Mar 11, 2010 8:33 PM CST up reply actions  

There are Sox fans who I know....

… who agree with the concept that the organization has a chip on its shoulder starting from the top down. It’s not bashing, it’s the truth.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 11, 2010 9:04 PM CST up reply actions  

And this relates to Lou's Legacy, how?

"In time you can turn these obsessions into careers...Hurry Down Doomsday the bugs are taking over." - Elvis Costello

by DrCrawdad on Mar 11, 2010 9:12 PM CST up reply actions  

I think it was being discussed....

that Lou had been successful managing in a few different organizations, and for the most part, was well-respected in baseball circles throughout the game. And conversely, Ozzie is beloved by Reinsdorf and longtime Sox fans as a former player who won a WS as manager, but outside of Soxland he is simply viewed as a loudmouth nut who is obsessed with how much TV airtime he can get, and because of that, will probably never manage another team besides the Sox.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Mar 11, 2010 9:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Interestingly...

… I’ve heard from quite a few Cubbie fans that they’d love to Ozzie managing the Cubbies.

"In time you can turn these obsessions into careers...Hurry Down Doomsday the bugs are taking over." - Elvis Costello

by DrCrawdad on Mar 11, 2010 10:12 PM CST up reply actions  

The grass is always greener.......

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 11, 2010 10:19 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd trade Lou for Ozzie this season...

" It’s spring fever - you don’t know what it is you want, but it fairly makes your heart ache, you want it so. "--Mark Twain

by cooliogirl47 on Mar 11, 2010 10:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Ozzie fits well as a manager for the White Sox.

He’s done a good job there and been successful.

I’m not sure he’d fit in to any other organization quite like he fits with them, though.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 12, 2010 7:39 AM CST up reply actions  

"Dusty We Trusty"

If Dusty – the former savior of the Cubbies, the manager Hendry said all the free agents want to play for – has a managerial job I’m sure Ozzie Guillen will find work.

"In time you can turn these obsessions into careers...Hurry Down Doomsday the bugs are taking over." - Elvis Costello

by DrCrawdad on Mar 12, 2010 8:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Different scenarios.

Ozzie seems a perfect match for the Sox because of his popularity with the fans and the fact that Jerry Reinsdorf loves him.

I can’t see another team having such a match for him. Baker was a manager with previous success. Personally, I don’t see what he’s done for the Reds.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 12, 2010 1:36 PM CST up reply actions  

were they drunk?

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 16, 2010 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Detours...

I know you all have your attention focused like friggin laser beams on the Cubbies and you don’t give a damn about the Sox and all that but these frequent detours into Sox talk and Sox bashing (and yes, don’t be coy, this is Sox bashing, again)…

I don’t want to alarm you but you’re becoming just like the stereotype of Sox fans that you love to put-down.

"In time you can turn these obsessions into careers...Hurry Down Doomsday the bugs are taking over." - Elvis Costello

by DrCrawdad on Mar 11, 2010 11:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Hardly.

And as I said, it’s not bashing. I have heard this from Sox fans.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 12, 2010 7:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Again, and this has what to do w/Lou's Legacy?

"In time you can turn these obsessions into careers...Hurry Down Doomsday the bugs are taking over." - Elvis Costello

by DrCrawdad on Mar 12, 2010 8:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Someone brought up Ozzie and what his legacy might be as a manager.

That’s a perfectly reasonable related topic. It morphed into a related discussion of White Sox management in general.

I don’t see why you’d have a problem with this. None of it was bashing.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 12, 2010 1:35 PM CST up reply actions  

If the topic is offensive to you crawdad

why continue to post and keep the topic alive?

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Mar 13, 2010 9:54 AM CST up reply actions  

It's revealing.

It strips bare the oft-repeated myths that Cubbie fans spew so frequently here, there and everywhere, as I referenced above:

I know you all have your attention focused like friggin laser beams on the Cubbies and you don’t give a damn about the Sox and all that but these frequent detours into Sox talk and Sox bashing (and yes, don’t be coy, this is Sox bashing, again)…

"In time you can turn these obsessions into careers...Hurry Down Doomsday the bugs are taking over." - Elvis Costello

by DrCrawdad on Mar 13, 2010 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Lighten up crawdad, lest we think you have a giant chip on

your shoulder. Look, don’t judge all of us by the ramblings of a few. I have a healthy respect for the Sox. They have an excellent lineup, a top-notch rotation and a good bullpen. Ozzie has proven his managing prowess and with decent years from people like Ramirez and Rios, the Sox should fight it out again with Detroit and Minnesota for the division. With a few breaks, they could go deep into the playoffs.

But let’s face it, this is a Cubs blog. I don’t understand why you get upset when people trash your Sox. If you want glowing praise of the Sox, go to one of their blogs

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 13, 2010 2:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks!
But let’s face it, this is a Cubs blog. I don’t understand why you get upset when people trash your Sox. If you want glowing praise of the Sox, go to one of their blogs.

This is a Cubbie blog? Wow! Didn’t know that with all the excursions into Sox talk.

"In time you can turn these obsessions into careers...Hurry Down Doomsday the bugs are taking over." - Elvis Costello

by DrCrawdad on Mar 13, 2010 3:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Good thing for you Milton Bradley wasn't traded to the White Sox.

You’d get severe carpal tunnel syndrome from all the thread policing.

"There's more to life than profits...like, you know, slurpees and stuff." ~Randy Marsh

by Goodie1969 on Mar 13, 2010 6:02 PM CST up reply actions  

High standards...

… someone has to hold you all to the claims you make so often.

"In time you can turn these obsessions into careers...Hurry Down Doomsday the bugs are taking over." - Elvis Costello

by DrCrawdad on Mar 13, 2010 6:35 PM CST up reply actions  

You know ...

… the White Sox are a baseball team. This is a Cubs blog, yes, but it’s also a baseball blog. We often discuss other teams here — there’s plenty of Cardinals discussion & Brewers discussion, for example.

I don’t see why discussing the White Sox — and the talk about Ozzie wasn’t bashing, no matter what you think — is out of place on a baseball blog.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Mar 13, 2010 8:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Square that with...

… the boastful proclamations by yourself and others here that you …

  • “Are fixated on the Cubs” (your words)
  • “Don’t give a damn about the Sox”

And there have been dozens of other, “We never talk about the Sox…” comments here.

You’ve spent gallons of zeros and ones here saying how you other Cubbie fans are better than Sox fans because you don’t pay attention to the Sox. Clearly that’s a myth.

So then why is it wrong for Sox fans to talk about the Cubbies?

"In time you can turn these obsessions into careers...Hurry Down Doomsday the bugs are taking over." - Elvis Costello

by DrCrawdad on Mar 15, 2010 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

you're funny

"Nady and his weak beard steps in" --Cubbie-Tim on Mar 12, 2010 9:53 PM

by cooliogirl47 on Mar 15, 2010 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm curious Crawdad, what do want from us? More posts

about the sox? Our eternal worship? Our firstborn male child? Please enlighten us on what you want from this blog.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 15, 2010 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Honesty, for one.

"In time you can turn these obsessions into careers...Hurry Down Doomsday the bugs are taking over." - Elvis Costello

by DrCrawdad on Mar 15, 2010 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Please. This is a blog, not an affadavit. Every opinion

here is subjective. Do you want every poster here to worship Ozzie and proclaim him the greatest manager in the world? These are opinions and they will never conform to your personal requirements. If I say that I believe that the Cubs are the best team in baseball, I’m not being dishonest, I’m stating an opinion. It may be misguided, but it’s still an opinion. If you trying to get the masses here to sing the praises of Ozzie and the sox, you’ve come to the wrong place.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 16, 2010 12:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Inflate the strawman

"In time you can turn these obsessions into careers...Hurry Down Doomsday the bugs are taking over." - Elvis Costello

by DrCrawdad on Mar 16, 2010 7:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

You are a hopeless case. Please go somewhere

where people will conform to your own twisted sense of reality. I’m going to leave you now. Please consider this our last communication.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Mar 16, 2010 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

What a whiner you are

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Mar 14, 2010 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Birds of a feather.

"In time you can turn these obsessions into careers...Hurry Down Doomsday the bugs are taking over." - Elvis Costello

by DrCrawdad on Mar 15, 2010 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

you are

living proof of the descriptions above.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Mar 16, 2010 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Living proof...

… of Cubbie fans obsessions with the Sox?

  • The thousands of posts here about the White Sox.
  • Cubbie fans posting on White Sox Interactive.
  • Cubbie fans posting at the Sox newsgroup. And this one is living proof of some people’s descriptions of Cubbie fans.

"In time you can turn these obsessions into careers...Hurry Down Doomsday the bugs are taking over." - Elvis Costello

by DrCrawdad on Mar 16, 2010 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's called Compare and Contrast

It’s college (probably high school now) freshman English class. You start on a topic about Lou “I’m a prime rib and potato guy” Piniella and you can logically begin to compare/contrast him to the other manager in town, Ozzie “tweet tweet” Guillen. I don’t see a long reach here.

I think Ozzie could get hired by another organization. I’m not sure he would last as long as he has with the Sox. Without that stronger relationship that he has with Sox management, he might not survie with another team during a losing season and a few profane tirades/tweets.

"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver

by RiskyBusiness on Mar 16, 2010 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

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