Bullpen and Bench
by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Mar 9, 2010 11:37 AM CST
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PrintI have no idea if Mike Fontenot will be an adequate backup SS, but either way I'm not comfortable with the Cubs starting the season with only one backup for SS and 2B, no matter who he is. In fact, the short (no Miles or Fontenot jokes intended) bench they went with last year put them in some tough spots late in games, and I really think they would benefit from having an extra bat and more versatility. If the way Lou has used his seventh bullpen pitcher the last two years is any indication, they don't need one anyway. There's no point in having a guy who's going to pitch once every couple of weeks take up valuable space on the 25 man roster. Thoughts?
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Only one backup for SS and 2B?
Unless I’m mistaken, this is fairly common.
Not unusual early in the season when teams carry 12 pitchers
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 9, 2010 5:03 PM CST up reply actions
Do you know how common?
I’m not trying to start an argument, I’m just curious. However, common or not, I think it’s not very wise. I don’t really want to see Soriano pressed into late inning emergency infield service again.
by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Mar 9, 2010 11:59 AM CST reply actions
Most teams would have 2 back up infielders
Some can play multiple positions, others are often divided into SS/2B & 3B. There are bench guys who can do IF & OF but usually it is OF and 1B & 3B. In general most teams would have one back up SS/2B with someone else who maybe could play the position in a pinch. The SS back ups tend to be light hitting and thus one is not likely to carry to of them around. Basically a team uses back ups for defense, offense and sometimes speed so in theory you want someone who can do two out three but
in reality offense trumps the other two.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Mar 9, 2010 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
if memory serves ...
the 2008 Cubs started the season with DeRosa and Theriot as the middle-infield starters and Cedeno as the backup. Later in the year, because of injuries, Fontenot was called up and stayed with the team for most of the season — but the Cubs could do THAT because DeRo could also sub as a backup outfielder.
But teams usually only have two guys who can REGULARLY play short. I think part of Lou’s decision to give Fontenot some time there in ST is because there isn’t an emergency SS on the club, and Fontenot could prove effective in that role, if nothing else.
I thought to myself this morning...
…this sort of post was coming soon. Here’s my breakdown on opening day:
Locks:
1.) Z
2.) Demp
3.) Wells
4.) Marmol
5.) Marshall
6.) Koyie
7.) Soto
8.) Baker
9.) Ramirez
10.) Lee
11.) Theriot
12.) Grabow
13.) Byrd
14.) Soriano
15.) Fukudome
On the bubble:
16.) Samardzija
17.) Nady
18.) Gorzelanny
19.) Gray
20.) Caridad
21.) Berg
The last four are open to guys like Blanco, Fontenot, Millar/Tracey, Silva, Hoffpauir, Colvin, Fuld, and Patton.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Nady is not on the bubble , it is only an issue of health
I think Caridad & Fuld are in unless they are injured or mess up in a huge way. I think Hoff is way down on the food chain. I also can’t imagine Patton making the team and Gray has injury issues.
As I have said a lot I think it is Blanco, Millar ,Tracy & Fontenot for two spots. If Nady or Blanco are not ready for Opening Day it increases the odds for Millar, Tracy & Fontenot and gives some hope to Barney & Colvin
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Mar 9, 2010 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
The only reason I put Nady on the bubble is health reasons.
Samardzija is on there because I think he’s not starting in Chicago, they’d want him to get work as a starter in DSM.
I agree with your take on Caridad and Fuld, but I don’t think they are quite “locks” yet.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Samardzja
I doubt he will start the season at AAA unless he is just atrocious this spring, so I would put him somewhat more likely to make the team than Caridad, pending performance of course.
If his future is as a starter and the Cubs are committed to that, this is his shot at it with two slots open and pretty soft competition. The competition will only get tougher as he gets older and some of the better pitching prospects move up the pecking order.
So, if he can’t nail down a starting spot, I would think he is a strong bet for the bullpen. From another perspective, the Cubs aren’t strong enough in the pen to be able to send a#6 starter to Iowa if he could help in the pen.
Eamus Ursuli!
Why wouldn't Fontenot be a lock?
He bats LH and is a solid glove that will be the first option at 3rd if Rami gets hurt.
"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun
Baker would be the first option at third
And Fontenot’s horrible 2009 easily prevent him from being a lock.
no, Fontenot is a lock. He would have to club Lou over the head with a fungo
in order to not make the team out of camp.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
except when Baker plays third, who plays second?
Most likely Fontenot, right? So either way, Fontenot is first option somewhere.
Unless you’re thinking that Theirot slides over and whoever our backup SS is (Blanco?), starts.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Fontenot
Unless he is traded or injured, Fontenot is a lock to start the season. He has the 1-year deal with the club. He is also a lefty. I don’t think that trying to make him a backup SS at this point is a good use of time and effort, but he would no doubt be of more use if that works out. The whole thing sounds like trying Soriano in CF a few years ago.
Let me refer you to elgato's post above.
While I think he makes the team (he should be “on the bubble”), I hardly would call him a lock at this point.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
apples and oranges
No one is suggesting that Fontenot START at short, whereas Soriano was the starting CF in 2007. Frankly, I think Lou is doing Fontenot a favor by trying him at short. If Fontenot performs OK there, he has a MUCH better shot at making the team.
If they believe he cannot back Theriot up at SS
Fontenot is not a lock
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 9, 2010 5:04 PM CST up reply actions
Clarification
There is always whatever chance that Fontenot could be traded or he might end-up on the DL before the season starts. But, if he isn’t traded and not injured then they are not going to release him. They offered him arb and settled on a contract and there is no lefty major league ready infielder competing with him for a roster spot. He and Baker will probably platoon at 2B.
When is the last time the Cubs just released a signed player before the season started?
OK
They signed Bako and let him go, but that was because they were uncertain of Hill being able to play.
by AboutTheCubs on Mar 9, 2010 10:23 PM CST up reply actions
caridad has been guaranteed a spot in the pen
by jesus christos on Mar 9, 2010 4:08 PM CST up reply actions
I missed that.
Link?
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Mar 9, 2010 4:24 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Here you go
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Today's trib had this
Of the seven bullpen spots, three are reserved for Carlos Marmol, John Grabow and Esmailin Caridad, and two other spots will go to the losers of the starting rotation battle.
Lou has usually liked the 12 pitchers, 13 hitters model. Lou likes that versatile infielder/outfielder. think Dusty liked 11 pitchers, 14 hitters with the typical 4th and 5th outfielders (pinch-hitter, defensive replacement respectively).
"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver
thats what I heard Brenley say on the radio a couple minutes ago..about the bullpen
" It’s spring fever - you don’t know what it is you want, but it fairly makes your heart ache, you want it so. "--Mark Twain
by cooliogirl47 on Mar 9, 2010 12:44 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think you're going to see Lou Piniella
go with 11 pitchers.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
Agree
I like Dusty’s thinking better myself. The bullpen needs steady work to remain effective. Seems like we always have someone like Chad Fox around that’s not contributing.
"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun
oh boy
" It’s spring fever - you don’t know what it is you want, but it fairly makes your heart ache, you want it so. "--Mark Twain
I just don't understand why Lou wants that extra pitcher
Recent history has shown that he doesn’t use his seventh relief pitcher, so why carry someone who’s main function is polishing the bullpen bench with his ass?
by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Mar 9, 2010 1:12 PM CST up reply actions
Useful in April unless you have a lot of open dates
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 9, 2010 5:07 PM CST up reply actions
He wants the extra pitcher
so he has someone to bring in to relieve Silva after he gives up 6 runs in 2IP to start a game. He likes having a guy to use solely in garbage time. Like David Patton or Luis Vizcaino last season.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've go to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
My best guess at the moment:
Starting lineup
1. Kosuke Fukudome RF
2. Ryan Theriot SS
3. Derrek Lee 1B
4. Aramis Ramirez 3B
5. Marlon Byrd CF
6. Alfonso Soriano LF
7. Jeff Baker 2B/3B
8. Geovany Soto C
Bench
9. Mike Fontenot 2B/SS
10. Andres Blanco or Darwin Barney SS/2B
11. Koyie Hill C
12. Xavier Nady OF/1B
13. Sam Fuld OF
Starting rotation
14. Carlos Zambrano RHP
15. Ted Lilly LHP*
16. Ryan Dempster RHP
17. Randy Wells RHP
18. Sean Marshall LHP
Bullpen
19. Carlos Silva RHP
20. Tom Gorzelanny LHP (out of options)
21. Esmailin Caridad RHP (3 option years remaining)
22. Jeff Gray RHP (1 option year remaining)
23. John Grabow LHP
24. Jeff Samardzija RHP (1 option year remaining)
25. Carlos Marmol RHP
*Will likely be replaced by either Silva, Samardzija or Gorzelanny in April.
Injured: Angel Guzman RHP
Again, just a guess based on what we know right now.
I'm almost with you, daver.
But I don’t think Gray makes it, mainly because he has an option left, he’s been hurt and I fully expect Hendry to acquire a righty reliever this month. I guess it’s possible that Gray stays and the new reliever takes Silva’s spot.
I also think that Tracy or Millar beats out Fontenot, and Fontenot only makes the team if he can be a decent backup at short.
Yeah, the bullpen is still quite fungible.
I’m favoring Gray a bit because he has ML experience, but his groin injury could put him far enough behind the others that he gets sent to Iowa. And I’m still not what to make of the second base and bench bat situation. I am starting to suspect that, if the Cubs aren’t trying to trade Fontenot, they may make him the backup middle infielder and go with Tracy or Millar on the bench. That still feels like a bit of a dubious move unless Fontenot can really bring his bat back to ’08 levels.
I'm going to call dark horse
And say Tyler Colvin beats out Sam Fuld (sorry Jessica) for the 4th OF/Defensive replacement spot
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
It's the 5th OF spot if Nady is on the roster
and no Colvin won’t “beat out” Fuld barring injury. He has plenty of time to get more experience in the minors. He has not even played at AAA yet.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Mar 9, 2010 5:41 PM CST up reply actions
I'll go further,
what if Colvin has such a good spring that the Cubs decide to trade Fukudome?
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've go to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Anything's possible, I guess.
But that would be quite a Hail Mary on a still-very-young player. If Kosuke had been flat-out awful last season, maybe. But (and let me just preface this by saying I’m not sure I have the energy for another Fukudome debate) I don’t think he was. (Awful, that is.)
Yeah, I know,
I was just throwing that out there, but not looking for debate. I’m not saying Fukudome is terrible nor am I hoping he will be, but what if we could trade him for something we actually need, like a pitcher? Either a starter or reliever…
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've go to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
I think that's
extremely unlikely.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Mar 10, 2010 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
Possible - but I'd prefer to see Colvin get regular ABs in Iowa.
And I think that’s what will happen.
Agreed
Colvin should start the year in Iowa where he can play regularly.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Mar 10, 2010 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
I like it
except I would have Gorz in the rotation and Marshall in the pen, not that i think Gorz is necessarily the better pitcher, but because I think Marshall is a better reliever.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've go to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Yeah, it could go either way.
One thing I like to point out, though, is that Gorzelanny’s career splits vs. left-handed hitters are quite excellent while Marshall’s are fairly unremarkable, so Da Gorz is better suited to be a LOOGY.
However, Gorzelanny's walk rate is higher.
So maybe you don’t want your specialist walking the one guy he’s supposed to face. I believe that’s referred to as Cottsian.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on Mar 10, 2010 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
No backup for 3B? Ramirez is a bit of a question mark after his injury, imho.
I would think that this should influence how the bench turns out.
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Jeff Baker is listed as "2B/3B."
He’s the primary backup for Aramis. If Chad Tracy makes the team, he could play the position, too.
Ahh yes, I oversaw that
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
by eths on Mar 10, 2010 10:44 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
11 pitchers
Wonder if Lou would consider going with 11, given most of the arms out there are younger this season, unlike past years, and there will be a couple of ex-starters who can go more than an inning at a time. Also, most of the bench is older guys so it would seem to be a better fit to have 6 rather than 5.
Personally, I think it’s ridiculous to carry 12 pitchers early in the year.
I still think Lou overuses the double switch by burning a position player when he intends for his reliever to go only one inning.
Here’s my vote:
OF: Sori, Byrd, Fukudome, Nady, Colvin/Fuld
IF: Lee, ARam, Riot, Baker, LBR, Blanco (or another middle infielder)
Flex: Tracy/Millar
C: Soto, Hill
SP: Z, Demps, Wells, Marshall, Gorzelanny
RP: Marmol, Caridad, Grabow, Spellcheck, Silva, a rookie
Wouldn’t be shocked if Nady started season on the DL (dude is just now cleared to play?) which allows both Tracy and Millar to head north.
It's pretty much an either/or proposition with Tracy and Millar.
I dare almost guarantee both will not make the team.
And, FWIW, I’ve asked Bruce Miles about the 11-pitcher thing and he’s indicated that it’s highly unlikely Lou would ever agree to carrying only 11. I do agree it would be a logical solution – especially, as you say, when you’ve got guys who can throw multiple innings.
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