Cubs Send Zambrano To Bullpen, Starting Friday
by Al Yellon on Apr 21, 2010 3:37 PM CDT
in Chicago Cubs News
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Carlos Zambrano heads to the pen -- via tweet from Gordo and tweet from Carrie.
Good. I'm all for this. Discuss. I'll delay the pregame post until 5:00 CDT again.
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WOW~!
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
by mrcubsfan on Apr 21, 2010 3:38 PM CDT reply actions 12 recs
I would have liked to sit in on that meeting with Z to see his reaction.
I guess we’ll find out when he takes the mound. His pride has to be hurt.
Sorry I started with a reply to my WOW. I hit the wrong button.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
I too hit the
Rec button under your post, as that was the first word that rolled through my mind when I saw Al’s headline.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." ~Alvin Dark
by DamonBerryhillsMitt on Apr 21, 2010 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
First Word?
Mine were unprintable!
Pessimists say the cup is half-empty, while optimists say it's half-full. Well, isn't it both? Realist Larry, 2009
by Realist Larry on Apr 21, 2010 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe he's being transitioned to closer
Zambrano is a starter so if anything then maybe this is lining him up to be a closer? Whatever it is, this team is misdirected.
by CrankyShoulder on Apr 21, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Misdirected is a good word
They said it wasn’t a move of desperation, but it sure seems that way to me. Any major moves this early in the season can’t be construed any other way.
''I'm really not a Facebook or Twitter guy. I'm a prime rib and baked potato guy.'' - Sweet Lou
Wow
indeed!
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." ~Alvin Dark
by DamonBerryhillsMitt on Apr 21, 2010 3:39 PM CDT reply actions
Will Z's move to the Pen
Score some runs?
by imknowdummy on Apr 21, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
Obviously.
Thanks for bringing the problem back into focus. Rec’d accordingly.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
He’s almost a walking double switch. He can hit and having that extra power in the line when he comes into a game from the pen can’t hurt.
Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica. - Jim Halpert as Dwight Schrute
If they did something about the offense
Then you would be crying about the bullpen. Obviously, this is just one step.
by bilbosbuttons on Apr 21, 2010 5:16 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
was it designed to
or I thought pitchers were paid to pitch and not score runs
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
by hansman1982 on Apr 21, 2010 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Because it will help both the rotation and the pen.
Don’t be surprised if Z winds up closing.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I disagree....
He was excellent last night….pitched very well considering he didnt have his best stuff! In the long run we are all kidding ourselves if we think that the combo of Gorzo/Silva will be better than Zambrano in our rotation!
14 Games in and we have already given up……
You will never move forward by looking back....
by By Santo's Grace on Apr 21, 2010 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
giving up is not what I meant, wrong verbage…..panic is more like it…..however THEY need to score runs or none of this matters….
You will never move forward by looking back....
by By Santo's Grace on Apr 21, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
I cannot wait...
until the pre-game press conference Monday. The local media is going to be doing flips over this one.
I think I’m going to go up for the Milwaukee series now just to see what the chatter is around the dugout.
Props to you though, Al. I thought there was no way that Lou would trade 200 innings for 50. I was wrong.
by Damen Jackson on Apr 21, 2010 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Completely agree
This probably does strengthen the ’pen (although that is not certain).
At this point I would say the rotation is stronger, considering that Z has the two worst starts of all the starters to this point. That said… This is basically committing to Silva and Gorzo in the rotation for the year.
As Pat says, buckle those seatbelts!
Eamus Ursuli!
This may help the Pen, AL
but it in NO WAY helps the starting rotation long term. I fear this will be something that we all look back on and regret…
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by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Maybe this isn't a long term move.
In any case, starting pitching has not been a Cub problem for at least two years. Relief pitching has. Maybe this will help.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
i agree Al
I think this may be a move to shake Z up from having the Ace tag so that if gorzo, silva or wells starts to suck it up they can move him back to starting as a 3 man. Also insurance if Marmol loses it as well. Bold move that is free…I LOVE this decision.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
by hansman1982 on Apr 21, 2010 4:08 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
You think...
A guy like Z, who’s started his whole career, will be able to just bounce back and forth between the pen and rotation successfully?
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Apr 21, 2010 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions
He hasn't started his whole career
he was in the ’pen in 2003.
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
2002, actually.
He became a fulltime starter in August 2002.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
so eight years ago.
he was in the pen.
This is a panic move plain and simple.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 21, 2010 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions
it does seem like over reaction IMHO
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
I'm sure he'll somehow...
Flashback 8 years and regain that pen magic, and condition himself to go back-to-back days and pitch without the prep he is used to as a starter.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Apr 21, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah that sure was a problem
for Eckersley and Smoltz and Chamberlain…..
Hell yeah I’m cherrypicking (and I believe they all had time to adjust), but to say it’s “not possible” is just foolishness.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions
What about our favorite Kerry Wood?
The best defense is a good offense.....Lou Pinella...still hasn't managed the Cubs to a post season win. D. Lee still doesn't have a post seasson RBI for Cubs...ditto for Soriano
"It's so simple, it's unbelievable," manager Lou Piniella said. "When you score runs, you win."
You mean the kerry wood whose arm was destroyed (another Dusty victim)?
And still did a good job in the closer spot?
Nahhh, you must be crazy.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions
you mean the guy who basically HAD to go to the pen
in order to continue his major league career?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 21, 2010 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions
exactly
his arm and back were damaged in High School
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
Umm first of all
Eckersley and Smoltz are WORLDS better than Zambrano. Secondly, I’m assuming you mean Joba Chamberlain? Fairly certain he didn’t spend eight years as a major league starter before he went back to the pen,
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 21, 2010 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Man,
this REALLY is not the sort of thing that you do in season.
From Opening Day starter to reliever inside of two weeks. Now this is how you blow things up.
by Damen Jackson on Apr 21, 2010 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions
very possible
he might be able to bounce back once from the pen to the rotation – I am not advocating that he starts on Monday, is in the pen for the weekend, starts again the next friday and so forth and so on – great insurance and might help clear Z’s head
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
Starting Pitching
Hasn’t been a problem since Zambrano has been solid. He was one of the key factors making the rotation solid. This better be a short term move until the real Carlos Silva shows up.
by Steves Stoners on Apr 21, 2010 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Just like the decision we all made to become Cubs Fans.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You DECIDED to be a Cubs fan?
;-)
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
I guess I did too
although, you move to Chicago, and what choice do you really have? :D
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Hi eths....I grew up thinking the Cubs were the only team in town!
so baseball WAS the Cubs
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Apr 21, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Hi Coolio
I never even considered being a fan of another baseball team. The Cubs were just it.
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
same here, it was like growing up an American, that was just what you were.
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Apr 21, 2010 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Yup, except I grew up ½ English, ½ German and ½ American - Confusing at times.
One fun thing was, my mom insisted on flying the Union Jack on the 4th of July…
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Cool! you're a smorgasbord! and I mean that in a good way! :)
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Apr 21, 2010 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions
There is overlap between English, German and American, and it leaves you a mid-atlantic schizophrenic
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Bloody Right, Da, Yep
See. I’m multilingual too.
"All of us are in the gutter...some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
My brother and I speak what we call Gerlish with each other.
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
I was born into a Cub family
Been a Cub fan all my 54 years. My dad was born in 1911 and died in 1993. The poor guy never saw the Cubs win a post season series. It’s a curse…..but in some weird way I be empty if I didn’t have this team making my life miserable.
"All of us are in the gutter...some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
Agreed...
Taking innings away from Z and giving them to Gorz/Silva does not make the team better.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Apr 21, 2010 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's...GORZSILVA!
Run!
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
I'm running
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
how will it hinder the starting rotation?
Z is starting to improve but he’s still slacking. He’s doing no better than any of the other guys in the pen so why not send him to the pen? You have to ask yourself if you’d want Silva, who is pitching very well, Gorz who is doing good but could go to the pen, or do you want to send in Z who has not be the Z we all have known. He hasn’t been the same since he’s signed that new contract. Plus Z has made it clear that he wants to go back to the rotation if the Cub’s make the playoffs. I think he’ll be in the pen until we can make another signing, probably in June, but they are looking a Looper pretty closely, which is not a good idea. Maybe it’s ok if they use him an inning or two and he comes cheap.
by alabamacubbie on Apr 21, 2010 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Re
It also means he won’t have to be pulled for a PH if his turn comes up to bat, and Lou won’t have to worry about the double-switch when putting him in.
Z’s better days are behind him. His lack of emotional control makes it especially difficult for him when the offense isn’t producing and he starts doing bonehead things, like trying to pick the runner off first with two out and throwing the ball away and then giving up a run-producing hit.
For those who still think Z’s got it, the biggest problem on the Cubs is the middle relief. What better way to help the team than patch this hole 3-4 times a week?
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by Jed Taylor on Apr 21, 2010 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly right.
And maybe he can become a closer, too — at least that way, you’re getting your money’s worth, considering the value placed on saves these days.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It also means he won’t have to be pulled for a PH if his turn comes up to bat, and Lou won’t have to worry about the double-switch when putting him in.
Well, we HOPE that’s what it means.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Double right-on, Bro!
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
It will not help the rotation...
Just looking at the stats, you actually diminish Z’s WAR and make him statistically less valuable in this role.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Apr 21, 2010 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
good point
the rotation is going to be so much better with a replacement level player (gorzellany) throwing every fifth day than than a starter who has been very good to great every single season of his career
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
by prophetjohn on Apr 22, 2010 12:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Because
thus far Z the the worst of our starters. Demp, Wells, Silva, and Gorgo have beeen really good. Z has been mediocre. Why punish the men who are doing very well, to not piss off the player who is supposedly the best. I think Z could benefit more from this. He could be a pinch hitter for the current pitcher, then stay in as pitcher, or like mentioned above, be a part of a double switch
by Rhymenoceros on Apr 21, 2010 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions
That's not really the issue.
It’s that Z can help the bullpen.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Z out of the gate
But Al, through his starts have you seen Z as effective enough in the early innings to be useful in the pen?
It is the issue...
Because someone has to take Z’s innings, and there isn’t anyone on the roster (not even Marshall) that could put up as many quality starts and innings as Z is capable of.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Apr 21, 2010 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
so could lily and dempster
just cram them all out there.
theriot, byrd and soto can throw the first 5 or 6 innings of every game and then let the good pitchers come in for the important innings
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
I don't think it's a matter of better
Putting Gorzo in the ‘pen makes him the 4th lefty out there. I’m guessing the idea behind this was to put some right handed stability out there and Z was odd man out.
"That's the beauty of baseball. You never know what's going to happen until you get that final out." –Lou Piniella
by cubbiebluekdawg on Apr 21, 2010 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions
How come 4 righties and 3 lefties is okay...
But 4 lefties and 3 righties is horribly imbalanced.
Brad Miller is god.
Because there are far more RH hitters than lefties?
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
If that's your argument...
Shouldn’t we avoid sticking a 2nd lefty in the rotation then?
Brad Miller is god.
WTF?!?!?
So he isn’t the “Ace” anymore?
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
What Al said
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by Craig in South Bend on Apr 21, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
So who is?
I’m so confused
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Dempster
Or no one, for that matter. To much emphasis is placed on having an ace. I’d rather just have good pitchers who do their j-o-b.
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by Craig in South Bend on Apr 21, 2010 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions 15 recs
I'm not really sure....
we’ve necessarily had an “Ace” in some time, just typically a solid 1-4 SP in the rotation most years.
Oh, I'm sorry; did I poke a hole in the echo chamber?
by The Jade Scorpion on Apr 21, 2010 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions
this I completely agree with.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
I disagree to a point......
I agree with the statement from the poster….BUT…that’s a team built for the regular season….I agree with you…Post season successful teams have an ACE
The best defense is a good offense.....Lou Pinella...still hasn't managed the Cubs to a post season win. D. Lee still doesn't have a post seasson RBI for Cubs...ditto for Soriano
"It's so simple, it's unbelievable," manager Lou Piniella said. "When you score runs, you win."
See: Atlanta and Minnesota
Both have excellent starting rotations, but neither with a clearcut ace.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Z did his job.
He was just inconsistent with it.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
um...I don't know if you're trying to be funny or if you're serious.....
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure myself.
I’m a confusing lad.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Don't agree
There are several important functions of having a staff ace. leadership being primary amongst them. The ace is the guy you look to to stop a losing streak. He sets the tone for the other pitchers in the rotation. And maybe most importantly, he is the guy you try to match up against the other team’s ace in an important series.
by azjazzman on Apr 21, 2010 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lilly.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
eh
Lilly is a great 2 pitcher…definately not ace material.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
But he is the guy who
at least last season, stopped losing streaks. I agree that he’s not an “ace” but he’s the closest thing we’ve got.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
rec'd
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 21, 2010 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions
The ace is the guy starting that day
by jerry morales rules on Apr 21, 2010 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions
no, that's a starting pitcher.
There’s a difference between just the guy you’re sending out there, and a bonafide ace.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 21, 2010 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions
And my point is ....
that it’s irrelevant who the ace is. It doesn’t matter. No pitcher pitches better because he’s the ace and no pitcher is allowed to think “Well, I shouldn’t have to be the most productive pitcher on the team becasue I’m not the ace.”
From the team’s perspective, the ace is the pitcher starting that day. Putting moniker’s on some guy is the provence of sports radio guys and fans, but it has no bearing on day to day activities. I guarantee you that Lilly, Wells, and the rest of the staff don’t have any worries or concerns about who the “ace” of the team is.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 22, 2010 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
The Cubs don't have one.....
And really haven’t since 04
The best defense is a good offense.....Lou Pinella...still hasn't managed the Cubs to a post season win. D. Lee still doesn't have a post seasson RBI for Cubs...ditto for Soriano
"It's so simple, it's unbelievable," manager Lou Piniella said. "When you score runs, you win."
Dempster in 2008?
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by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe.....
Let’s see if he can step up……
The best defense is a good offense.....Lou Pinella...still hasn't managed the Cubs to a post season win. D. Lee still doesn't have a post seasson RBI for Cubs...ditto for Soriano
"It's so simple, it's unbelievable," manager Lou Piniella said. "When you score runs, you win."
I like ...
Liked Lily, Demp, Marquis, Z…….and Wells and Marshall ..(and the Jury is still out on Gorz. and Silva) BUT thats a bunch of 2’s and 3’s ….which will actually do a team good in the long haul of the regular season….BUT I think you need a dominating ace to win in the playoffs.
The best defense is a good offense.....Lou Pinella...still hasn't managed the Cubs to a post season win. D. Lee still doesn't have a post seasson RBI for Cubs...ditto for Soriano
"It's so simple, it's unbelievable," manager Lou Piniella said. "When you score runs, you win."
who was the ace '03-'05?
genuine question
he definitely wasn’t the best start the last two years. very good, though
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
He never was
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by Craig in South Bend on Apr 21, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
this is a mistake.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 3:42 PM CDT reply actions 12 recs
How so?
The bullpen is terrible and sending Z there bolsters the pen. If the wheels come off Silva or Sloth, Z goes back to the rotation. Sounds reasonable to me.
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by Craig in South Bend on Apr 21, 2010 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I suppose it's possible they could be doing this...
…to limit Z’s pitch counts for a while. They have been high.
This too
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by Craig in South Bend on Apr 21, 2010 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I suppose
it could be considered as a kind of rehab assignment.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions
or, like, taking him out of games before his pitch counts got really high
either way
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
Is it really that easy?
Even if somebody’s usually a starter is it that easy to jump back from the pen to starting again?
If they're used to being a starter
and if Z can stay on his bicycle and keep his stamina up, I don’t see why transitioning back to the rotation would be that difficult.
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by Craig in South Bend on Apr 21, 2010 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions
and what happens when he comes into the 8th inning, walks a guy, and hits a batter?
I know. How is that different from now?
Well, it’s different from now because now he won’t be giving us 150+ innings in the rotation.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess it's a good thing we have 5 pitchers
who can give us those innings.
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by Craig in South Bend on Apr 21, 2010 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions
do we?
Silva’s been doing well, but we’ve no idea what will happen. To me, the issue is that Z’s control issues are better mitigated by him having 5-6 innings to smooth things out. Now, if he walks someone, he has to get under control immediately.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess we'll cross that bridge if we come to it
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by Craig in South Bend on Apr 21, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
yes and Drew is saying that when we come to that bridge,
we might be in trouble. And for once, I actually agree with him. I especially don’t understand this move when Z actually had a pretty good outing last night. If he was struggling to make it into the 4th inning, and getting shelled, that’d be one thing, but he went 6 innings, gave up 2 runs, and struck out 9.
As an added bonus, I think this is literally the last pitcher on this staff you want to jerk around. The guy is a freaking head case. You know it, I know it, and it’s damn sure Lou knows it. He may say he wants to help the team and just win, but I’ll be willing to bet a good sum of money, the first time he’s asked to go warm up in the 8th inning, the first thought in his head is going to be “what the hell am I doing here?” That’s not a guy I want trying to act as a bridge to our closer
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 21, 2010 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
that makes no sense at all
we have noone to pitch the eight inning efectively. how would puting Z there be helpful if he is getting shelled every time out? the point is as far as natural ability, zambrano has the most of it of all the starters which makes perfect sense for him to be the appointed set up man we desperately need. if silva or gorz falter, z goes back its pretty simple actually. everyone is acting like Lou is going to let Silva go out and give up 6+ runs every day and still leave him out there. even Lou is smarter than that. This IMHO is Lou’s best move of the year to date. lets see how it plays out before we start thinking about 2011
by ronniewoowoo2 on Apr 21, 2010 11:29 PM CDT up reply actions
We do?
Tom Gorzelanny has thrown over 150+ innings just once, 2007. He threw 105 innings in 2008.
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
And no one (myself included) thought Demp would be a good starter
and still called him Dumpster, until he proved otherwise. Gorz has been throwing well, but if you’re the owner of a Delorean with a flux capacitor and know what’s going to happen, I’ll defer to you.
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by Craig in South Bend on Apr 21, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Nice icon, Doc Brown
I get what you’re saying, but Carlos Zambrano has a pattern of bad March/April starts, and great May starts. Wrong time to pull the guy from the rotation, IMHO.
Gorzelanny’s track record is far worse. I hope he pulls a Dempster. I just don’t think Zambrano is the guy to use as your bet on that outcome.
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
actually I did
of course, that’s because I remember his days as a starter with the Marlins. Overall numbers were not that great but he had flashes of brilliance. I liked his makeup then and love it now.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
and 80 of those 150 innings he would be doing the same thing....
WAKE UP
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe he would and maybe he wouldn't
but if you’re going to sit there and tell me that pitching as a starter is the same as pitching as a reliever, well, I’m going to laugh at you.
Certainly, I hope it works out. It’s a bold move. But it just doesn’t feel… smart.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Z is mentally weak...
moving him back and forth between the Pen and Starting Rotation can only hurt him psyche-wise
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by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions
true. it's an edumakated guess... but I think it pretty likely
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by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Why would think that?
If anything, you think you are more valuable than you actually you are.
“We desperately need bullpen help and we think you are the only person up to the task.” Man, if anyone said that to me I’d feeling like a boss.
But then again, we are all acting like Zambrano is as fragile as a 5-year-old, which is a bit much.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed.
Now we have a rotation problem instead of a bullpen problem. That’s a lot of innings to cover in his stead. And, again, the splits say this is just in time to miss Zambrano’s best month.
DO. NOT. LIKE.
(Obviously this doesn’t address the offensive woes, but it’s, of course, not intended to.)
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
by Phubbies on Apr 21, 2010 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
How do we have a rotation problem?
Up until now, Z was the weak link. You act as if taking Z out of the rotation hurts things, ignoring how Lilly is good to go.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Apr 21, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly!
You’re taking the correct view of this move.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
This is clear as day
I don’t understand how people don’t see this. The only thing that hurts with this is losing name recognition in the rotation, as the Cubs no longer have a sexy name in Big Z throwing every 5 days.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Apr 21, 2010 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions
No, it was a starter with a track record of success.
Gorz and Silva have track records of absolutely sucking.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Apr 21, 2010 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah
those 2 game track records completely overwhelm years of actual representative performances.
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
I was being kind of facetious.
Because the “absolutely sucking” isn’t completely true, either.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I present to you...
… Zambrano’s career splits. You’ll find his month by month pitching stats about halfway down the page.
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
That's great
He’s still the worst part of the rotation right now, and it’s not like things can’t change in the future.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Apr 21, 2010 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Disagree with "worst part..."
Agree with “it’s not like things can’t change…”
My point is that Z has ALWAYS had rough starts and ALWAYS pitches best in May. So I don’t think this is the right move right now.
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
This is a ridiculous overreaction.
It is EXACTLY akin to, say, demoting Lee for Hoffpauir last year in April when Lee was stinking up the joint.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Apr 21, 2010 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
No, it's not.
Because that’s one of 8 everyday players.
This is ONE pitching position out of five starters and seven relievers.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
how can you mention starters and relievers in the same breath
like they are of equal value
it’s even more absurd than replacing lee with hoffpauir because lee is 1/5th of the rotation and one of the better pitchers
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
Rec'd!
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
Because it's not about replacing Zambrano with Lilly
It’s about replacing Zambrano with Tom Gorzelanny, or Carlos Silva. Hooray! Gorz had two good outings! If memory serves he had two good outings for us last year, and then proceeded to be pretty freaking mediocre to bad in most of the rest of his starts.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 21, 2010 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions
AND WHEN AND IF
that happens they make a change.
by ronniewoowoo2 on Apr 21, 2010 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Z being the weak link in a rotation for only 3 weeks??? Small. Sample. Size.
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by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Until now?
It’s April 21st. Throughout an entire season, a Gorz/Silva/Marshall rotation is a problem.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Apr 21, 2010 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Your willing to ignore Z's extremely long history of performance
And very good season last year in favor of 4 starts this season?
by vivaelpujols on Apr 21, 2010 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd have to disagree with the "very good season last year" part.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
He had a 3.77 ERA, a 3.61 FIP....
What would you consider that?
by vivaelpujols on Apr 21, 2010 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions
VEP
I wish you could have heard Adam Wainright on the local radio station (I’m in St. Simons AW’s home). They got him going and basically railing against sabr stats because he lost the Cy Young because of them. He wanted those SABR geeks who didn’t know the game to understand W/L and that’s how you keep track of whose best. I laughed my tail off!
I don't care I still love him
Besides, I don’t advocate FIP for the Cy Young anyways.
by vivaelpujols on Apr 22, 2010 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Because he's a player
He must understand the value or lack there of statistics?
Yes, I see how that would instantly qualify him to analyze the statistical significance of numbers?
Why because he just knows it seeps through his pores when joined the league.
He is probably very qualified to judge another pitchers ability, how they do what they do, the process if you will. He does not have any experience in evaluating statistical equations and therefore is probably not the best person to ask about value.
Why is it that people assume baseball players instantly can recognize value?
wainwright
I don’t expect him to understand them. It was just a rare candid moment where a player was on record saying the exact same thing that non stat guys on blogs, etc were saying. Hell I’m glad he was saying it because he was pissed he didn’t win which is what you expect from a competitor. Still was funny to hear though..
I don’t expect nor want everyone who talks about baseball to be stat driven. That’s one reason that it drives me nuts when people blast announcers and reporters for not using “new” stats. They are writing to a broad audience not stat audience.
Z struggled in his starts
but this also could potentially save late inning bench players. Z comes in for relief, don’t necessarily have to worry about pinch-hitting for him and wasting another move.
Definitely some positives can come from this.
Z comes in for relief, don’t necessarily have to worry about pinch-hitting for him and wasting another move.
I can agree that this is a positive.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Rec'd
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Apr 21, 2010 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed wholeheartedly.
I don’t understand how this possibly makes any aspect of this team better. It’s a terrible, panicky, flailing at the end-of-regime mistake.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Apr 21, 2010 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I wish I could rec this a thousand times.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
by Goodie1969 on Apr 21, 2010 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't want to live in a world
where the Cubs think Tom Gorzelanny needs more starts than Carlos Zambrano.
by rexual on Apr 21, 2010 3:42 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Yabbut..........
……….it allows Lou to go lefty-righty-lefty-righty, etc………
Yes, sarcasm intended.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
This is the sign of a team...........
………….that is in a state of disarray.
Panic button picture, please.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
by tville on Apr 21, 2010 3:42 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
...
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on Apr 21, 2010 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Thanks, Clutch.
I knew someone would be at the ready.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
by eths on Apr 21, 2010 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow - Who would have thought it
Btw: Another tweet::
RT @PWSullivan: Zambrano to bullpen starting Friday. “Because of his stuff” Lou sez. Z is cool with move.
MLB Trade Rumors
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
too bad his "stuff" ain't that good anymore.
This is what I want in my closer:
1) Filthy Stuff
2) Strong Mentally
3) Throws Strikes
Z had NONE of these qualities. This is no-good, man.
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by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions
How do you feel about Marmol?
Because he gets strikes despite struggling with command. Not a ton of pitches in the zone.
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
I feel oK
1) Filthy Stuff: YES
2) Strong Mentally: Meh
3) Throws Strikes: Not so goo
I guess his stuff and potential out weigh the other negatives.
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by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
wait
so every other closer HAS to follow those three except for Marmol since he is doing good, what happens if Marmol blows 2 saves in a row? his potential not good enough then.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
by hansman1982 on Apr 21, 2010 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Where have you seen anywhere
“Z moves to closer.” All that has been said is “Z to the pen.” Am I right or am I missing something?
Dont think you are
I think its a lock that Z is the 8th inning guy. Why piss off Z and Marmol. Also even though I question this move I’m sure Lou didnt st Z down and say, “I’m demoting you to the bullpen”. I’d wager it was more like our 8th innings are a grease fire right now and with Lilly coming back we are better at starting pitching than relief. Guaranteed it was sold as temporary until the whole staff can sort things out.
However, the offense is pathetic and quite frankly I think the best we can hope for it this year is sporadic.
"All of us are in the gutter...some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
I'd rather have Z be a middle releiver/setup man. He has the stamina to go multiple innings.
Think if we could have had Z come in after Gorzo went down like he did for his last start.
by Rhymenoceros on Apr 21, 2010 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Put Marshall in the Rotation.
There is no need for 7 starters on a team. Trade someone to get a halfway decent reliever.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Lilly's back on Saturday
Marshall will stick in the ’pen
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
It could result in a trade.
Maybe Gorz will be moved, and Marshall will wind up in the rotation.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Selling high on Gorz would be a good idea
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Apr 21, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with this
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by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions
based on the premise
that the Cubs have ever sold high…ha
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
by hansman1982 on Apr 21, 2010 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions
You called it, Al.
So props for that.
I’m not happy about this, though. Hope it’s only a short-term thing.
Incredibly stupid move
He makes $18 million a year as a front line starter, he doesn’t go to the bullpen. Any organization that does this is f*cking retarded.
"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"
"f*cking retarded"
Not permitted at this site.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
We forgive you.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Let that be a lesson to ya
don’t use * when a ‘u’ will do.
schoolmarm’s panties bunch either way.
WOXY.com - The Future of Rock and Roll
by Gibbon Jockey on Apr 21, 2010 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Really? You really think that is what was deemed offensive?
And you don’t see a problem with the way that ‘retarded’ was used?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
no. no.
it was snark. relax.
as for how the word was used, i associate the word with it’s definition as being a description of something that hinders or impedes progress. Nothing wrong with the word’s usage.
I don’t limit the usage of the word as a derogatory label of mentally underdeveloped human beings.
But that’s me. Your usage may vary.
WOXY.com - The Future of Rock and Roll
by Gibbon Jockey on Apr 21, 2010 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Regardless of how you use it...
… I don’t want it used here in that fashion. Period.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Ok; relaxed.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Though really...
that should only be disallowed if it’s a reference to down syndrome, etc. (which I would strongly object to)
But “retarded” has a real meaning that is entirely reasonable to use. (I mention this because it’s a pet peeve of mine that many people keep trying to make the word out of bounds, when the slur is neither the origin nor the majority usage of the word .)
by CubsWin!Oregon on Apr 21, 2010 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions
It's unnecessary.
We have SEVEN STARTERS ON THE TEAM. Just trade one to get a decent reliever.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
It could happen.
But trades like that rarely happen in April.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
baseing where a player plays on how much $ they make instead of how they're performing is dumb....
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, that approach sounds like it came out of left field - oh, wait...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Then why
is Soriano playing over Colvin? Colvin plays better D and hit a heck of a lot better in spring. ??
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 21, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You missed the sarcasm...
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Apr 21, 2010 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh
Fail on my behalf.
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 21, 2010 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
WOW
I am shocked. This is one of the most surprising on-field moves for the Cubs I can ever remember.
Highest paid reliever in baseball???
Right now, yes.
He may wind up closing. Who knows?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Didn't Zito
go to the pen after struggling and getting his ginormo contract?
by jthack on Apr 21, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes.
And wound up coming back from there and throwing quite well.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Apr 21, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Barry Zito as a reliever
happened exactly once in San Francisco.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Apr 21, 2010 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions
and we have
no idea how long this is going to last…might just be one appearance
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
by hansman1982 on Apr 21, 2010 11:24 PM CDT up reply actions
A closer is still a reliever
He is the highest-paid bullpen player in baseball right now. Probably of all time.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
by cubzfan on Apr 21, 2010 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Most surprising move since Wood?
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
I didn't find Wood that surprising
His health issues were too public.
With Wood, it kind of seemed inevitable and a good risk.
He only had to warm to the idea that most of us already had.
I don’t think anyone really was toying with this idea until very recently.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
absurdly stupid
lets give Carlos Silva (a far inferior pitcher) more innings and Carlos Zambrano far less, that’s how we’ll get better!!!!
brilliant!
organization-fail
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 3:45 PM CDT reply actions 7 recs
Really?
Which Carlos is pitching better right now?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Zambrano does lead the NL.............
………in strikeouts, and it’s not like he pitched poorly in his start last night.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Strikeouts aren't the only measure of a good pitcher.
He has two decent starts and two really bad ones.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
OK...
… two decent, one mediocre and one really bad.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Caveat on his bad start
I think it is worth noting though that his one horrific start was pretty clearly an outlier that should be ignored in predicting future success this season.
Eamus Ursuli!
and
We are all in agreement that Z should never have been allowed to start another freaking opening day…
and the mediocre
is now the outlier now that there is nothing futher outside the bell curve so now we have Z having 2 out of 2 GREAT starts…Zambrano does have a history of:
A) Having terrible starts mixed in with excellent ones
2) Being Crap-tacular in August
i) punching gatorade coolers in the face
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
by hansman1982 on Apr 21, 2010 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions
definitely a good reason to take 140 innings away from him
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
Point being, Al..............
……….what is the basis for which you move him to the pen? And is it lucid to think he’s better off as a set up guy? Or even a closer?
In the end, I think it’s clear this team is lost. Mail in 2010 now.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
You willing to eat those words if the Cubs make the postseason?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
i'll set the o/u at 84 wins
and i’ll take everything below and you take everything above (this is giving you lee-way for not even being good enough to make the post-season)
and i’ll bet whatever you’d like
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions
how about
a big front-page post made by one party to the other admitting defeat
or a donation to a cubs charity…
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions
name the price
although i wouldn’t mind public admission of defeat….
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions
deal
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions
i'm sure we'll remind each other
we’re obv on opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of our outlook
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I will eat anything
If the Cubs make the postseason.
"All of us are in the gutter...some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
Make it Casu Marzu
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
I am always prepared to humbly accept the times............
……….when I am mistaken. Sorry to say, I’m not too worried this time around.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Were you in favor of benching Lee last April?
This is a “flailing about in disarray” move – the kind of thing that people do when everyone is about to get fired.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Apr 21, 2010 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
he also leads in BB, Runs allowed,
and has the 4th highest ERA (highest of the starters).
Silva has the lowests ERA on the whole team, granted he’s only had 2 starts
by Rhymenoceros on Apr 21, 2010 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions
and im sure he would continue to hold those honors if kept in the rotation
wait…
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Apr 21, 2010 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions
the point i was making
is what Al was making, SO aren’t the only metric to judge them by.
by Rhymenoceros on Apr 21, 2010 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions
stats in april for pitchers
are an awful way of judging
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Apr 21, 2010 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions
good god...
its 2 starts…
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
we should demote Aramis and promote Bobby Scales too right?
c’mon al…
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
yes it is
the difference between silva and z in their careers is close to the difference between scales and ramirez
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Obviously, that's true.
However, I believe Z can help the bullpen. Let’s see how this plays out before we knee jerk slam it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
there's no way it can realistically help
you’re taking 120 innings from one of our best pitchers and giving them to someone not in our top 4
its simple math Al….
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions
oh my....
i’ll refrain from going further
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
You'd better.
Statistical analysis and advanced metrics are useful tools. They should not drive the engine.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
right
because there’s no correlation between the stats and the wins… none
its all just magical nonsense
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Correlations don't prove anything
they just show relationships and can be used to guide predictions. I bet it isn’t a perfect correlation. Why? because the stats can lie. Give it time man, give it time. It’s 14 games (?) in and people are already jumping ship like mad
by Rhymenoceros on Apr 21, 2010 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions
So you are saying that sometimes teams win when they score less runs than their opponents?
by vivaelpujols on Apr 21, 2010 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions
that is in no way what i am saying
the point is that teams can win even when they should statistically not be the better team.
by Rhymenoceros on Apr 21, 2010 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Okay
So sometimes players with better stats don’t win. How many times do players with worse stats win?
by vivaelpujols on Apr 21, 2010 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions
You aren't getting it.
the stats are CORRELATED with wins. Teams with better stats TEND to also win more. This isn’t always the case. I will give you that most times the better players will win and the worse players will lose. but it isn’t always the case, hence the correlation isn’t perfect (1.0/-1.0).
by Rhymenoceros on Apr 21, 2010 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I am getting it
You are saying that their isn’t a perfect correlation between the probabilities and the actual outcomes. That is correct.
But by definition, playing the odds will leave the team in a better position more often than playing against the odds.
My question is why you would intentionally lower the odds of the team winning games?
by vivaelpujols on Apr 21, 2010 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions
its a gamble
that could potentially pay off big. though it could also seriously backfire. sometimes playing against the odds could be the better way to go. Desparate times call for desparate measures. Lou and Hendry are feeling the chopping block getting closer.
by Rhymenoceros on Apr 21, 2010 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions
hahaha
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
by prophetjohn on Apr 22, 2010 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions
how does it pay off big?
Z nails down what, 5 8th innings?
I’d rather have the 190 IP up front than a handful of “holds”.
Even a big payoff seems like a huge waste.
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
This is not statistics
This isn’t even calculus. It’s high school algebra. You can’t get 50 innings to be greater than 200, no matter what your equation.
I’m going to assume that this ill-conceived idea will vanish within a few weeks. Probably long enough to talk someone into trading with Hendry.
by Damen Jackson on Apr 21, 2010 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions
it can be if
the 200 innings are taken by guys who perform with equal stuff and the 50 innings are dramatically improved. Do you want Z or the Shark taking the 8th inning over with a lead?
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
by hansman1982 on Apr 21, 2010 11:31 PM CDT up reply actions
agreed - the differentials have to be taken into account
but who are these guys that are going to throw 200 innings of equal stuff?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
the entire rotation currently is showing the capability…if they can just sustain – I know easier said than done.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
by hansman1982 on Apr 22, 2010 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions
very much so
and very unrealistic considering the pitchers involved.
What you’re suggesting is that both Silva and Gorz would outperform Z over the whole season.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I am thinking
that Gorzo, Silva and Z in the pen – outperforms Z in the rotation. The thing I like about this move is that Z is now a difference maker in 50-60 games rather than 33ish…
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
by hansman1982 on Apr 22, 2010 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Any evidence to prove this?
While very nicely said, he also is pitching less innings in those 50-60 games.
Overall he has less impact.
Read it.
That's a great point.
I sure hope no one used statistics and metrics to build the engine in my car, for example. I hope they built it with nothing but heart.
by Wreckard on Apr 21, 2010 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Building a car isn't the same as building a baseball team.
I figure you’d probably know that, but just in case.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
So will switching Z to the pen create more chemistry to the team?
Will it change any of the intangible aspects, or will it only be effected by stats?
by vivaelpujols on Apr 21, 2010 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions
It will likely be both.
You’re trolling me here, but I’m giving you a serious answer anyway.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's not trolling
Z’s ability to adjust to pitching out of the bullpen, especially if any other starters struggle, is a real question.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
He's not trolling, he's making common sense arguments.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Apr 22, 2010 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions
That's not trolling in any way.
He’s asking a question about how moving Z to the bullpen will affect the team.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 12:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Not really trolling
Here is what I am asking. We know that the probabilities of baseball can be estimated by a combination of prior stats and intangibles. So Z moving to the pen impacts the team directly (the value of him in the pen over replacement – the value of him in the rotation over replacement) through both stat projections and intangible projections.
We can estimate the stat projections using prior stats. Based on that it appears that this move is a bad decision. Now it’s possible that their is some intangible aspect of moving Z to the pen that makes this move work, but I have no idea what it could possibly be.
It’s not like you are trading Z for Bradley or someone, you are just changing his role, and that should not have a large effect on the chemistry of the team.
Thus the primary evaluation of the move should be using statistical projections.
by vivaelpujols on Apr 22, 2010 1:23 AM CDT up reply actions
OK, so you're not trolling.
Granted, statistical projections are a useful tool in evaluating this move. However, please do not ignore the other factors — and they do exist.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
What other factors are involved that could swing the potential impact of this deal so much?
by vivaelpujols on Apr 22, 2010 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions
In this instance
The possible (and I don’t pretend to know half as much as Al about the Cubs) intangibles to me include:
Statement to the team no one is unmoveable, no one is protected be it salary or what. This can’t be overstated with the well quite frankly piss poor mental aspect some of these guys seem to play with so often. Z always stomping around, Sori hopping around, a general malaise at the plate and on the base paths.
Second Lou has been pissed that no one can seem to get outs in the 7th and 8th. I think putting Z in TEMPORARILY helps to settle the bullpen and potentially the team which face it could have had 3 + wins with a better pen. The only time that they could do this is NOW with the good starting pitching and Lilly coming back. When one other pitcher fails they then can move Z back and hopefully have found a solution internal/external for the 8th spot.
Ok those make sense
And are even defensible. But that is only if the move is extremely temporary, as you say. If you put Z in the pen for a week or two to send a message to the team and to pick up their moral in tight ballgames, that’s fine. But in the long term it will cost value, so it should only be temporary.
by vivaelpujols on Apr 22, 2010 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Winning:
Having a positive difference between the runs you score and the runs your opponents do.
Math!
per game.
last year or the year before, didn’t the astros have a stretch of games where they were positive in Runs Scored vs runs allowed, but still had a horrible losing streak?
by Rhymenoceros on Apr 21, 2010 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Right, because they allowed more runs their opponetns
by vivaelpujols on Apr 21, 2010 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions
no, i can't remember exactly when, but there was a stretch where they had scored more runs than they gave up
but still had a losing streak (because their wins were blowout wins).
positive runs scored vs runs against (meaning runs scored – runs against; positive meaning they scored more.
Again, the point I’m making is that stats can not tell the truth unless you know the whole story.
by Rhymenoceros on Apr 21, 2010 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions
no amount of anything
is going to convince others that moving Z to the pen might actually work out and if this season was lost anyway (which a growing number of people thought so) then why not throw caution to the wind. Also it is HIGHLY possible that Z could get more wins in relief this year than he did starting last year.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
by hansman1982 on Apr 21, 2010 11:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Can we also see how it plays out before we tout it as the cure-all end-all this is really gonna help the team?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Apr 21, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
and before
we decry it as the end of the 2010 Cubs
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
by hansman1982 on Apr 21, 2010 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Too bad for you guys the Cubs didn't avoid this knee-jerk decision.
Zambrano may very well do fine in the ‘pen, but he’s being paid SO much money that it’s clearly not the best way to get bang-for-yer-buck.
You can read it in any tone you like.
Just looked at some numbers.
Zambrano’s career BABIP is .278. Last season it went up a few ticks to .306. This season it is .423, a number that is clearly unsustainable. Unless, that is, you think Carlos has nothing left. And a trip to the bullpen just isn’t going to fix that.
He’s been struggling, sure. But he’s also had some bad luck. If he “improves” in the bullpen, it’ll be because his luck evened out, not because of some bullpen cure.
You can read it in any tone you like.
also because everyone improves in the bullpen
its an easier role than starting because you don’t have to go through a lineup multiple times
generally everyone’s numbers ERA/WHIP improve out of the pen
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I think this is right for several reasons.
1. I think Carlos needs an attitude adjustment. This is a wakeup call by the organization saying that he is not performing as expected or as needed.
2. Z can hit, so it reduces the need for double switches.
3. Many of us waited for several years for Lou to take Sori out of the 1-hole. Now when the management has made a quick, definitive decision, we are fussing. It isn’t permanent—it may help. If it doesn’t, there is no reason he can’t go back to the starting rotation.
4. Carlos won 9 games last year. Many relievers win more than that. I have said it before and will say it again—it can’t make the pen worse!
This isn't a smart decision. It's a remarkably stupid decision.
1. Carlos can hit for a pitcher. We’re still going to doubleswitch.
2. Carlos Z is a better starter than the alternatives. This makes the rotation – the ONLY THING HOLDING IT TOGETHER AT THIS POINT – substantially worse going forward.
It’s as if the team is being run by hyperbolic message board posters.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
This.
A million times over. I feel like I fell asleep and woke up in Crazyland. And there are clowns everywhere…
I hate clowns.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
ooook
as of right now isnt Zambrano = Silva and Gorzo, based on their performances so far this year. and I dont want to hear what happened last year…Silva got some issues worked out that involved his mom and a full-time gig in the rotation might do Gorzo some good. Hell Wells came out of nowhere and now Wells>Zambrano.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
by hansman1982 on Apr 21, 2010 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions
It was a little over the top, on purpose.
I assumed DCF was being that way, too. Guess not.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Are you serious?
Just because Silva has pitched better in 2 starts doesn’t mean squat.
2010 is OUR year.
Small. Sample. Size.
Check out the Video Blog I host: WebSmart TV
by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Come on Al.
Like you said about Castro: Small. Sample. Size.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
OK, I'm an idiot.
Didn’t see the repeat.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
Nailed it.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
Close Dartmouth
But it is Gorzo who should be in the pen except oops he is a lefty and we have too many of those.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 21, 2010 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Stupidest move I've ever heard. Why? WHY?
I do not agree with this move at all.
by braziliancubsfan on Apr 21, 2010 3:45 PM CDT reply actions 4 recs
This is possible the dumbest thing that I've seen them do.
This doesn’t help the bullpen, and it certainly doesn’t help the rotation to have Gorz AND Silva as people we have to depend on for 40% of our rotation.
Well, now we’ll have a terrible rotation to go along with our terrible bullpen. Consistence breeds championships, right?
by CubsWin!Oregon on Apr 21, 2010 3:46 PM CDT reply actions 4 recs
As I said in the other thread ...
it’s kinda funny that Z’s place on the team was probably affected by Braden Looper’s performance.
I don’t really like this move, but I don’t hate it either. It’s better than giving up young talent for a closer in a year where .500 is looking less and less possible anyway. And, hell, the team’s been underperforming pretty much since mid-September 2008 — why NOT do something drastic?
Oh, and Shark’s heading to Iowa now, if there was any doubt of that before.
God I f*cking hate this team sometimes.
Sorry for the profanity.
This is the DUMBEST idea yet.
by kanderber on Apr 21, 2010 3:46 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Really? The DUMBEST?
Dumber than:
Neifi Perez and Corey Patterson batting 1-2?
Two years for Neifi?
Two years for Glendon?
Two years for Miles?
Shall I go on?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Years of therapy down the drain
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
i still remember sitting in the bleachers a few years ago
and watching neifi lay down a bunt with 2 on and 2 out in the 9th….speechless.
---AC 00 00 00 - Believe
Brock for Broglio
was stupider.
So was trading for Ray Fontenot.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
Yes, easily.
Taking an 18M arm and putting him in the pen? He’s making 18M the next three years. This is so incredibly short-sighted. Not to mention he’s had ONE BAD START. And we’re moving him rather than trash like Silva and Gorzellany? Give me an effing break.
and you are aware
that Silva had some personal issues that were worked out prior to this season? I believe something involving the immigration status of his mom? Ohhhhh thats right it doesnt matter because we dont like Carlos Silva the same way we like Ryan Dempster who was given a pass last year for poor performances before his daughter was moved to Chicago.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
by hansman1982 on Apr 21, 2010 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Inconsistent
Big Z is just too inconsistent to stabilize the bullpen, Dempster would have been a better choice….IMO
The good news
The good news is that this means No one is untouchable. If the 18 million dollar Ace can be put in the bullpen than the 180 million OF can go to the bench or whatever other moves makes the team the best.
I love how in one thread its blow up the team and one change happens…… and its no your fing stupid!
by KyCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 3:47 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
APPLAUSE
and rec’d – my setiments exactly…
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
by hansman1982 on Apr 21, 2010 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I can only express puzzlement that borders on alarm.
---AC 00 00 00 - Believe
by mjk83 on Apr 21, 2010 3:48 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
More than anything else, maybe this sends a message to Zambrano
I don’t necessarily agree w/it, but – at least Piniella is finally running the show, and not the players.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 3:49 PM CDT reply actions
Good point,
its a now or never message to Z. He better get himself together.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
But what good does it do if the guy running the show is a moron?
You could pull one of the beer vendors out of the stands to manage and they would have the good sense not to do this. Even if Z is absolutely lights out in the pen, the team is now worse.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
I don't entirely disagree
how’s that for committed?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions
and the message is
I have no clue what I am doing. I think Z and the rest of the team knows that
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 21, 2010 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions
So Zambrano is no longer the Staff Ace?
Or can you keep that moniker in the bullpen?
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
He never really was
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe Lou mixed up his Carlos'
He has three there. Probably called someone Stevie Ire while he was at it.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Apr 21, 2010 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions
The 2008 can have two: Ryan Dempster
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed.
Dempster was an adequate closer in 2007
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Really?
The Cubs treated him like he was their ace… used him as their ace… and definitely paid him like he was their ace.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Apr 21, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Is this a desperation move? Will this motivate Z in any kind of way.
It’s only the first month of the season, for God’s sake, he pitched well yesterday, let it play out.
by braziliancubsfan on Apr 21, 2010 3:50 PM CDT reply actions
One good thing
It puts Z in his place – he has to do this because Lou wants him to and Lou is the boss. Last year, Z said something obnoxious when he was asked by a reporter if he’d pitch out of the pen, something like, “I’m a starter!” It’s his job to listen to his boss, and I didn’t like his attitude. (I still don’t).
If he is to pitch in the pen, it makes sense to at least try him as a closer. Marmol has been good so far, but I always liked him better as a 7th/8th inning guy who can get 5 or 6 key outs now and then. I think he pitched better in that role, actually, though maybe he’s getting better now at closing.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
by danimal15 on Apr 21, 2010 3:51 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd.
You state the main point of this — showing the players that Lou is, in fact, in charge.
When I was discussing this with my friends in the bleachers over the weekend, one said, “Lou doesn’t have the balls to do it.”
Guess what. He does. Nice to see Lou in charge again.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I said it first ;-)
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Glad we agree.
Will you be in Milwaukee on Saturday?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Nope, not this series. I'll be at the next one.
Doing the 8k CrazyLegs run in Madision.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
or Madison...
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks! Enjoy the game.
I’ll track you down yet this season.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions
ive been meaning to do that race
of course ive developed a love for madison and welcome any excuse to go back.
---AC 00 00 00 - Believe
Excellent! Maybe I'll see you there.
Not that we’ll know who each other is . . .
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Same to you
It rained last year; wasn’t too bad.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions
If moving your...
18M starting pitcher to the bullpen is what it takes to show your players that you’re in charge, then you need to be fired on the spot.
by kanderber on Apr 21, 2010 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's not what Al is saying
It isn’t a message to the entire team. He is saying it is evidence that he’s in charge.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
More like...
evidence that he needs to go. Seriously, I’ve been on the fence with regards to Lou. This puts me over. Fire him.
Well, we'll see
Again, not sure it’s the right call, but it’s sure interesting.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I think it's a wake-up call to the entire team.
Good for Lou.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
this is what I'm thinking also
just sayin’
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Apr 21, 2010 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions
we think alike TJ! YAY!
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Apr 21, 2010 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I think that's a bit of a drastic overreaction to this?
To fire Piniella “on the spot” these days, he’d have to be doing something quite illegal or reprehensible off the field. The days of Billy Martin-style firings are long gone.
And anyway, something tells me that it’s not “the players”, but Zambrano himself who needs to be shown who’s in charge.
by owllover711 on Apr 23, 2010 12:55 AM CDT up reply actions
are you taking bets that his ballsieness will continue?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
If only Lou had the balls...
to bench Soriano and give other people: Nady and Colvin, a chance.
I know people will say Soriano is hitting ok right now, but guess what Z has been pitching better recently too.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
This is the shot which wakes the team up? I sure hope so.
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
It certainly woke up BCB.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep.
I think Zambrano’s been out of hand since the dustup with Barrett. I know his success is vital to our team but I haven’t been a fan of his for quite a while now. If this makes him a little more tractable in the future maybe I’ll warm up to him again.
I just don't get it.
I don’t know how an organization can justify moving a guy who can potentially give you 200 innings to the pen.
Granted, only 50% of his starts so far have been good, but you’re really going to sacrifice potential to get a couple guys out every other day?
And how does a guy who’s only started all of the sudden make the switch to prepare physically to get up at a moments’ notice?
My mind is swirling right now
random thoughts aplenty: @crouch17
This is awesome.
Starting pitching isn’t the problem on this team. If anything, it should be probably be dealing a starter to get help elsewhere on the field, but that’s just me and it’s a little bit earlier in the season to start dealing quality starters willy nilly.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 3:51 PM CDT reply actions
it = the cubs and earlier = early
Sweet post by me :(
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't like the move one bit
This makes very little sense to me. I think it hurts the rotation more than it helps the bullpen. I don’t see the bullpen as being one arm away from being good and I don’t how many days a week Zambrano is going to be able to pitch. I guess if you really believe that Gorzellany and Silva are going to pitch this well all season it would make sense, but that is very wishful thinking in my opinion. Who knows, maybe it will work out, but I don’t see it.
The one thing I will agree with is that I definitely like this better than overpaying for a reliever in the trade market. This team is probably not going anywhere anyways, so the last thing I want them to do is trade away a future piece for a run at respectability (i.e. .500 or 85 wins).
It would be different if the Cubs
were bringing up Cashner or Jackson to be the starter — but Gorz and Silva are the ones we are concerned about?
2010 is OUR year.
I can't help but wonder if Deep Goat tipped you off on this Al.
That, or both you and Lou are crazy.
Or, you and Lou are geniuses.
This is as shady as Gizmodo’s purchasing of the iPhone 4G.
Follow me on Twitter: @brandonrifkin
This is too unbelievable
Seems like something out of The Heckler or The Onion!! Who’s running this trainwreck???
"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"
Lou is nuts
Lou says move of Z to bullpen may not be temporary. “This makes all the sense in the world.” He must’ve smoked a massive bowl to celebrate 4/20 yesterday
"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"
This is
the stupidest fucking thing I have ever seen any team do
by CalCalender on Apr 21, 2010 3:55 PM CDT reply actions 5 recs
The
inmates are running the asylum around here.
you should have
because I like things that make sense. You don’t send one of the winningest pitchers in Cub history to the motherbleeping bullpen because your bullpen sucks.
You dont sacrifice 180 innings for 80 innings in the pen.
You don’t justify this move by saying it makes Lou look like a boss in the clubhouse.
The Dave Kaplans and Paul Sullivans of the world are running this team
There is no excuse or justification for this
by CalCalender on Apr 21, 2010 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 14 recs
What?
The media is telling Lou what to do? Ridiculous.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
thats all you have to say?
its a metaphor al for know nothing loudmouths. Those are the kind of people who think moving Zambrano to the bullpen in favor of CARLOS EFFING SILVA is a good idea
by CalCalender on Apr 21, 2010 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
We'll see if this move works.
You cannot say right now, before a single inning has been thrown by Z in relief, whether it will work or not.
It could be awful. It could be great. We do not know yet. And if you say you do, you are incorrect.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If Zambrano
throws great in the pen its still a shitty move because he IS AN ABOVE AVERAGE STARTER. This is baseball 101. If our pen is this shitty then you trade prospects who MIGHT be good players and get a RP you dont do this. Nobody does this.
by CalCalender on Apr 21, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Shit?
IS this really that bad of a move over all if..
a) it makes Marmol a better pitcher over the long run
and
b) it lasts less than 8 weeks?
Does this also mean that there will be a bullpen pitcher regularly taking batting practice? I don’t know that I’ve ever heard of that.
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Apr 21, 2010 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Can he drive in runs?
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
I like bridges
They are great jumping off points
"All of us are in the gutter...some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
Jeff, Lloyd or Beau
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions
C'mon now
The Padres are tied for first in their division.
Who are we gonna offer for their closer or their star hitter (see below)? We have a first base spokesperson and a talented young closer.
Z throws strikeouts. Marshall and Z in the pen = a decent bullpen bridge from both angles between starter and closer.
I don’t like or dislike the decision right now because there’s no evidence to deem it a success or a failure. I hope it works.
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Apr 21, 2010 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Stupider than...
the Bears moving Devin Hester to WR full time?
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Our rotation
Dempster
Wells
Lilly
Gorzelanny
Silva
Something tells me that is not going to win us the World Series. Especially when you have two better starters in your bullpen in Zambrano and Marshall
This is the year...
replace any one of those guys with Z....and you think we will win the WS?
get over it.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Get over it? As in trying to construct a team I feel would be the best to win the World Series?
no thank you.
This is the year...
Gotta agree there.
But I don’t understand why the Cubs think Gorzelanny is the option as a starter. I’d rather Marshall or give the two top prospects a shot.
2010 is OUR year.
That still could happen.
Maybe Gorz could be traded for some hitting help. The team still needs that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I what in the world would Gorzo
bring in a trade. Goodness. This is a panic move, there is no other reason to call it what it is.
I hope so.
What what can we possible upgrade? Secondbase? Package a deal with SD and another team for Adrian Gonzalez and have D-Lee sent somewhere else?
2010 is OUR year.
from what I can remember,
Marshall has been better out of the BP than as a starter.
by Rhymenoceros on Apr 21, 2010 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions
So is this gonna...
make the team hit?
Thanks for acting like a major market team in the off season! What a joke of a franchise!
by TheRamZamDLEE on Apr 21, 2010 3:57 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
agreed!
No fucking wonder we haven’t won in 100 years.
Yeah duder
This is totally the reason why.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Apr 21, 2010 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions
What on Earth does this have to do with that?
The lack of winning has nothing to do with what is going on NOW.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
and sending
a 3 WAR + starter to the bullpen is not a way to start winning
ever
John Smoltz disagrees....
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Apr 21, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I was waiting for this argument to be made
The difference between the two: Zambrano is in the prime of his career and on the better side of 30. The only way Smoltz was going to continue his career was to move to the bullpen
This is the year...
He went back to starting actually
And was still dominating too while he was still in Atlanta.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions
The only way Smoltz was going to play in 2003
Was by going to the ’pen. He was recovering from Tommy John surgery.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Except...
Smoltz had multiple arm surgeries at that point and had no other realistic choice. But other than that.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Dennis Eckersley
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Apr 21, 2010 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I knew that,
by saying “but other than that” I was referring to Smoltz moving to the pen.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Gotcha...my bad
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Apr 21, 2010 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I gotta split for now
Enjoy kiddies
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Apr 21, 2010 3:58 PM CDT reply actions
This is what happens
when Hendry ties up so much freaking dead money in Dome, Soriano, Bradley, Grabow and you end up with a rookie bullpen.
So Silva, Gorzo are better starters.
Great move team. This is desperation time on April 21.
This just solidifies that Hendry and Lou will no longer be part of the Cubs in 2011, I just wish it would be April 22, 2010.
would you all please stop commenting...
so I could actually finish reading a full comment before the screen jumps again :)
Check out the Video Blog I host: WebSmart TV
by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 3:59 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
no
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions
you need to read faster.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions
not sure if you're being funny or serious...
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
both
Check out the Video Blog I host: WebSmart TV
by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions
thanks.
Check out the Video Blog I host: WebSmart TV
by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, Lou's done weird stuff and it's worked before ...
but this one is really, really weird.
Wait for it...
Has Lou changed his mind like he did with Dempster to Starter yet?
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Apr 21, 2010 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
THIS HAS TOM RICKETTS AND HIS MEDDLING HANDS WRITTEN ALL OVER IT!!!!!
Never had that problem with our fine Tribune Company leadership. {sarcasm}
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Apr 21, 2010 4:00 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Please good God no!
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand. - Homer J Simpson
by MikeOxbyg on Apr 21, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Are you kidding me?
God no? Ummm, lets see. I’ll take that kind of success in a heartbeat.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
hell
give me Steinbrenner or give me death!
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
by hansman1982 on Apr 21, 2010 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Are we really out of options?
You’d have been better off trying to find someone to take him if you wanted to shore up your bullpen. Just genius. Desperation move? You bet.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Effect on offense
I realize Z hasn’t really done any good hitting this year, but at times the last couple of years having him as the SP is like having an additional offensive player in the lineup. He’s had seasons where he’s hit over .300, and he’s always a possibility to hit a few homers. (He also does dumb things on offense that hurt us, I admit, like the bunt hit attempt that got him hurt last year).
I just hope Lou keeps Z’s batting capabilities in mind and lets him hit for himself when the occasion comes up. It would be a waste to make a pitcher with an $18 mln a year contract and a potent bat someone who only pitches to 5 or 6 batters a week and never gets up to the plate.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
I would think...
… that if Z is throwing middle relief/setup and his batting order spot comes up, he’d be left in there to hit.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You'de better let Z swing something
no gatorade dispenser to beat up anymore.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Apr 21, 2010 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Or you could even pinch-hit Z for the outgoing pitcher (or double-switch) and leave him in to pitch.
by worldcupfever on Apr 21, 2010 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Good point.
Probably not worth a fuss, but does anyone know Z’s batting performance based on which at-bat he’s having in the game? Like if he has a .300 average in his second at-bat but a .120 average in his first at-bat, it won’t be very helpful only having him come up once in a game.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
Anyone who thinks this is a good idea
is a f-ing ruhtard.
Here’s why:
1). Carlos Silva will not continue to pitch as well as he has.
2). Zambrano will pitch less.. (200-220 IP vs 100 IP max) he’s your 2nd -3rd most valuable pitcher.
3). The Cubs made several moves acquiring bullpen help, why not call up a Jeff Stevens first before sending your ACE to the pen.
Don't call people names Mr. Grumpers.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Forget name calling shoes!
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Point by point.
1) You know this how?
2) If he becomes the closer, he can shut games down in the 9th.
3) Jeff Stevens is awful.
Finally, watch your language.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Wow Al, F-bombs going out eveywhere
You better keep up with it, lol.
Also...
Who says Z will make the bullpen better? Dumb move.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Apr 21, 2010 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm really not sure
what all the fuss is about. People are acting like this is somehow a completely permanent move, like there is no possibility at all that if this doesn’t work out they can’t shift things around again. C’mon.
Second, why on earth does it matter that he’s making 18 million over the next three years? He’s making that no matter his role on the team, and if this works and it helps the club, then big whoop. If it doesn’t they can put him back in the rotation.
You know what I really think? I think all the people who are completely freaking out about this have Z as part of their rotation in their fantasy baseball leagues. I guess if I had that I might be upset too…
The Rivalry, Esq. - Judging the Big 10 since 2008
by Hilary Lee on Apr 21, 2010 4:01 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Unnecessary as defined by
who? And in comparison to what?
We’ve been sucking. There are many reasons for sucking. I would rather try things to end the sucking than just sit there and fiddle while Wrigleyville burns.
The Rivalry, Esq. - Judging the Big 10 since 2008
you use players where they can be used to the best of their ability
taking starts and innings away from a pitcher like Zambrano will be more costly than leaving him in the rotation. I just don’t see how any good can come out of this.
This is the year...
You don't
know that. Why not give it a chance to work before declaring it a failure?
The Rivalry, Esq. - Judging the Big 10 since 2008
Oh, because there are so many people here who know everything before it happens.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Two words: Milton Bradley
I thought it was a bad idea to sign him to begin with, a lot of people didn’t, thinking it would be a spark for the team. Turns out it was an utter failure.
Am I saying Milton and Carlos are the same? No. But I’m having the same feeling toward this situation than I am the Bradley signing
This is the year...
"Why not give it a chance to work before declaring it a failure?"
The signing of Milton Bradley was a failure made by the Cubs management. I thought it was a horrible signing to begin with. We gave it a chance to work, and it did not.
I don’t agree with the statement that was made by this poster.
This is the year...
So......
Because there was one instance in time where a proposed move did indeed end up not working out, we should automatically declare all other proposed moves that have a possibility of not working out as failures before they start?
I like this form of logic you are using. It makes life so much easier.
The Rivalry, Esq. - Judging the Big 10 since 2008
Again
You are judging this as a failure before it happens because it has a possibility (high, in your estimation, though I would disagree) of not working out.
If you can indeed see the future and are judging it from that perspective, can you please pick me some lottery numbers so I can pay off my law school debt?
Else, I suggest you just wait and see like the rest of us. If you’re right in the end then I’m sure you won’t hesitate to let me (and everyone else) know. And that will be fine.
The Rivalry, Esq. - Judging the Big 10 since 2008
This is terrible logic.
You can defend any terrible decision – even driving drunk – by this manner of thinking, as long as “hey, it worked out in the end!”
No, no you can't
My argument isn’t purely probability based, as you assert by comparing it to drunk driving (incidentally, it is ludicrous and highly insensitive to compare a baseball managerial decision with a crime that results in the deaths of thousands of people a year…).
We have never moved Z to the bullpen before. Thus, neither Chanman or I have any way of knowing what the outcome of such a move will possibly be, or how likely that possibility is. My point is simply that declaring this move a failure based on nothing but speculation about its results based entirely on opinion, or the assertion that the Cubs have made decisions in the past (the Bradley comment) that haven’t worked out, and thus, all their possible decisions that could backfire will, is stupid.
The Rivalry, Esq. - Judging the Big 10 since 2008
But the thing is, you do know the outcome:
You are giving fewer innings to a better pitcher.
The words “fewer” and “better” are not up to speculation in this case.
But that "outcome"
Is not the same as an ultimate result. Will it mean giving fewer innings to a “better” (at least as statistically defined over the past several seasons, irrespective of the current season performance)? Yes.
Does that mean the Cubs will suck more because of it (thus, in my definition, branding the move a failure)? No.
And that’s where we reach our problem. None of us know what this will do to the Cubs this season. We can all speculate on what we think it will do, but none of us knows what the result will be until it happens. Thus, branding it definitely a failure (especially for the entirely spurious reason of “it has fail written all over it”) is stupid.
The Rivalry, Esq. - Judging the Big 10 since 2008
by Hilary Lee on Apr 21, 2010 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
As you said before,
We can’t tell the future. Therefore you should make every decision possible to maximize your probability of success. Why intentionally handicap yourself by giving a better pitcher fewer innings??
Sure, there is a chance that it doesn’t hurt the team. But why objectively remove quality innings from the pitching staff?
It defies logic, and that is why Chanman is correct that it has fail written all over it.
Put another way...
Let’s say the back half of the Cardinals lineup was sucking. Does it make sense to move Albert back there “to shake things up” or “shore up the lineup” while giving him fewer at-bats?
I don’t know what the result would be, but I know that that is a bad decision.
Why necessarily fewer?
Why can’t Z pitch 3-4 innnings per series? Series A he pitches 2 innings each in Games 1 and 3, and in Series B he pitches 3 innings in Game 2?
Repeat that 27 times in a season (27*6=162) and he’d have 189 IP. Not much different than if he keeps on throwing 110 pitch 6-inning outings as a starter.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Apr 21, 2010 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions
1. Lou said he is line for the 8th inning
2. As much as that sounds nice, it rarely works out that way. The top reliever by IP last year didn’t crack 90 IP.
90 innings would breakdown to $200k per inning for Zambrano.
Yeesh.
You can read it in any tone you like.
I just thought of this.
If we are going this route why don’t we just call up Cashner and give him a shot at a starting spot. I’d be interested in seeing what he can do.
---AC 00 00 00 - Believe
This is a different route entirely that doesn't involve a first call-up or a 40 man roster move.
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Apr 21, 2010 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions
First Innings
Seems to me that the 1st inning has always been Z’s worst. i dont see how that makes him bullpen material.
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand. - Homer J Simpson
Z's career ERA in the first inning is 3.23.
He’s worse in the 3rd, 5th, 6th and 7th.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Way to beat me back with stats...
So he can relieve in the 2nd,4th, 8th and 9th.
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand. - Homer J Simpson
Kills ALL potential trade value
Epic Fail on all accounts.
by PJA on Apr 21, 2010 4:02 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Zambrano is pretty much unmovable anyways.
So I don’t why you have you panties in a twist over that.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Untradable for anything you want
This latest move has Hendry’s stamp on it.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Making this move just censored a feeling for lou that I never had before.
I want Lou fired today
by braziliancubsfan on Apr 21, 2010 4:02 PM CDT reply actions
PRESS RELEASE: April 21, 2010
Chicago Cubs General Manager Al Yellon announced today that starting pitcher Carlos Zambrano will be moved to the bullpen Friday when pitcher Ted Lilly is activated from the disabled list.
Mr. Yellon said it was time for a “shake up” and this move would help strengthen the bullpen and starting rotation.
“Look”, said Yellon (who obviously has spent too much time with Cubs manager Lou Pinella), Big Z won nine games last season. That’s a win total for a relief pitcher. So we decided to put him where the stats fit."
"Look, what do you want me to do?"
I like the move. Try something different. Send a message.
Otherwise we’re looking at a sleepwalking repeat of 2006 all over again.
"Look, what do you want me to do?"
I think what's getting lost...
in all of this is that our manager genuinely feels that both Carlos Silva AND Tom Gorzellany are more likely to throw better outings than Carlos Zambrano. Repeating: our manager things Silva and Gorzellany are more likely to have better outtings than Carlos Zambrano.
It’s fucking mind boggling that ANYONE could think that, let alone the man hired to run the team.
I’m 100% on the Fire Lou bandwagon now.
by kanderber on Apr 21, 2010 4:03 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Nah, he's not saying that.
Gorzo’s a lefty so he can’t do it.
Silva’s making his comeback as a starter, why fuck him up now?
Who cares about Silva?
And who cares about Zambrano? We’re talking about what’s best for the TEAM. And no one in their right mind will tell you that A) 100 innings of Zambrano is better than 200 innings of Zambrano or B) that Carlos Silva is more likely to be successful than Carlos Zambrano.
This move seriously sounds like something you’d read in The Heckler just because it’s so unbelievably stupid.
I'll join that band wagon.
One thing that kills me about the Z is not an ace crowd, who would you rather start a playoff game for the Cubs. No one else has had the post season success Z has had.
Would I like Z to be more consistent, sure. This is just dumb. Fire Lou and Hendry.
Always loyal to Leon
I've been on that bandwagon.
All aboard!
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Keep in mind -
this isn’t the first time Lou has said he is going to do something, then not do it (or wait until next year to give it a shot).
Remember when he proclaimed after a game that Demp was going to start in a week? Then it never happened?
Who knows what’s going to happen between now and Friday.
Tyler Colvin rec's this
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Apr 21, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Al needs to get credit for this move. I think he was the first one to suggest this move.
Even if this move works, I will hate this move.
by braziliancubsfan on Apr 21, 2010 4:05 PM CDT reply actions
do not hate Al at all, this is an awsome site.
If this move is made because Z wasn’t very good, it doesn’t make sense. In 4 starts, he had one really bad outing, two outings that he only gave up 3 earned runs, and yesterday’s outing, in which he only gave up 2 runs. These aren’t bad starts at all. I rather bench Soriano and start Tyler Colvin than make this move.
by braziliancubsfan on Apr 21, 2010 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Ohhhh, I just had a thought.
is this in preparation for moving Marmol?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
to another team!
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
What would that get us though?
Our bullpen is our biggest question mark. Why get rid of the one guy who at least has some history of success?
by CubsWin!Oregon on Apr 21, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know
but if you’re considering turning Z into the closer, there’s no place for Marmol.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
In truth...
I wish we could return to having Marmol be our 8th inning guy (even if Z was our closer, and dumb as I think it is). That worked well for us, so long as we have a strong closer.
But unfortunately, in modern baseball relievers take on certain aires about when they’ve “earned” the right to close. I doubt Marmol would be willing to happily go back to an 8th inning role. (Much like Heath Bell probably wouldnt’)
by CubsWin!Oregon on Apr 21, 2010 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe.
I don’t know what their personal relationship is. We could hope, I guess.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Apr 21, 2010 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Just dont think it will happen
Why piss off two Carlos’ with one move.
"All of us are in the gutter...some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
Point being...
… you might not piss either one of them off. We just can’t know until and unless it happens.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
True
Cant predict the future. But being stuck behind Gregg all last year…..than getting the closer role….than back to the eighth inning. As I said in an earlier post I think this is a temporary move. If it turns out to be permanent than I agree with you about Z closing.
"All of us are in the gutter...some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
Z might set a new record for 3 inning saves.
Lou’s always wanted to start the bullpen and have the starters close em out.
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Apr 21, 2010 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Welp looks like the masses now have what they want
Prepare for the suck. The good news is this means the Cubs will have a high draft pick in 2011. I can’t wait to start scouting prospects.
The bullpen
Could’ve given up 0 runs yesterday, the Cubs scored 0.
You still lose.
and it's on April 21st...not much of a sample size either.
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand. - Homer J Simpson
And in previous games the offense scored runs
But the bullpen gave up more. Cubs lose.
This addresses the bullpen issue. The offense issues is separate.
Yes, exactly.
So glad we have a “dependable” arm in the 8th inning to protect all those leads we’re not going to have.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
If we are going to put him in the bullpen,
we might as well dangle him on the trade market and see if we can get anything such as a good batter in return. New York’s always wanted him, maybe we could get an offensive bat from them. (Does he have a no trade clause? not sure).
This is the year...
Which he may give up for a chance to be a starter again...
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Apr 21, 2010 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions
z for lind
GETITODNE
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Apr 21, 2010 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Z will now break Francisco Rodriguez's regular season save record with 65 saves.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:06 PM CDT reply actions
If that happens, the Cubs will make the playoffs.
Which would make all of us happy.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Haha, I knew you guys will go nuts with this move
I take what Lou says as a grain of salt. I bet it will be a temporary move, but you knnow what the Cubs are 5 games behind already of the Cards. Any more loses will result being 10+ games behind the Cards and the schedule will get tougher around May-June.
Can you imagine
“Z” in the eighth, when he can’t find the plate and bring in Marmol when he has one of his moments when he can’t find the plate. Then Lou will put Dempster in the pen, call up Diamond and send Gorzo out.
That's what the Yankees would do...they expect results...and to hell with how much $ you make...you just damn well better perform or they'll find someone who will.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
The problem
is they have the greatest closer this game has seen, they spend there money wisely ( recently), have a ton of money to spend, and have a offense that is the best in baseball. No comparison.
I didn't compare the teams...I'm simply pointing out the thought process.
Everyone wants their Cubs to win, and as soon as they start making decisions with some BACKBONE everyone shits the bed and huddles in a corner to suck their thumb.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
The status quo is obviously working.
I mean, look at the record!
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions
This is ridiculous...
You just take over 100+ innings out of Zambrano’s hands and somehow spread them out between Silva/Gorz/Marshall? Wow. Z may have had a shaky start, but he’s shown he could be a good to great pitcher throughout an entire season.
What happens when Silva and Gorz start pitching like… Silva and Gorz?
Someday we'll go all the way...
Good point
I think Lou will eventually put Z back in the rotation. This move is obviously being done to shake up the team early in the season and try to bring it back to life. Z is a guy who can throw 200 innings with an ERA below 4. Lou must know it’s not sensible to put someone like that in the pen for the rest of the year.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
When I heard this
When I heard this on the radio I assumed the announcer had made a mistake and meant Silva.
Yes this is interesting. But so would putting Ramirez behind the plate and Lee in CF be interesting. Doesn’t make it right.
Formerly known as cubstoseriesby100. Thanks Al for letting me change my outdated screenname.
Yes, let's put Theriot in the cleanup spot, too.
That would also be interesting, and would light a fire under Ramirez.
/sarcasm
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
Marshall in LF?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 21, 2010 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Lou's not pulling a Brian Anderson here. He's making a pitcher a different kind of pitcher. Is that so wrong?
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Apr 21, 2010 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Lou is an idiot. Not one thing about this makes one bit of sense.
and Hendry signed off on this?? WTF is going on??
"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"
we traded for Jake Peavy....
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I wonder...
…if he would have been more valuable to tade for some decent players than move to the bullpen. I have no idea if Z wants to leave now, but if he does, he won’t bring much being a high priced bullpen pitcher instead of a starter.
I believe this is a good move.
I wonder who will be sent out when Lilly returns.
Shark
Gray
Russell
Maybe its more than one?
Not really.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
I am not happy with the way Lou has handeled Gray as of late
Why the hell is he using the shark over gray.
Hopefully, Hendry will send Shark to Iowa on Saturday, so Lou can't use him.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The Shark is gone
Russell and Gray are RP with potential, but Shark is finished. In fact, he should have been gone after his first relief appearance against Atlanta.
You think this is a good move?
Wow, that really shows how inintelligent you are
Why don't you wait off a couple games
This move can either go towards a super bad move or pretty f’in intelligent move.
I know you sure didn't mean to have issues spelling.....
I guess we will just have to disagree. Maybe I am right, maybe its you……
But I just want our team to win!
Go Cubs!
Funintelligent.
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Apr 21, 2010 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions
More from Twittermeyer...
Z says wants to help team but calls move temporary. ‘Like Schwarzngr say, I will be back.’
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
There ya go.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
I believe it's
I’ll be back. That sounded too American.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Apr 21, 2010 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Well
at least the meatheads shouldnt call Z selfish anymore. He is def taking one for the team
by CalCalender on Apr 21, 2010 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Len and Bob tweet via Twitter
Z to the bullpen. He will set-up for Marmol beginning Friday in Milwaukee. Len #Cubs
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
I am liking this move more and more over the short-term.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
because instead of going
5-7 innings every five days, he can pitch one in games we’re winning?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
well
you don’t set up for your closer unless you’re winning, right?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions
What an unbelievably moronic franchise
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Apr 21, 2010 4:10 PM CDT reply actions 6 recs
Great screename!
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
This move is no worse than your profile picture
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Apr 21, 2010 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
OH SNAP!
Check out the Video Blog I host: WebSmart TV
by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions
lol - back at ya
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Apr 21, 2010 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions
The team looks like crap right now
May as well try something. I would be more upset if the just sat around with thumbs up there asses and did nothing
This is DEFINITELY
a move that is intended to help in two areas.
The pen sucks ass and perhaps…
Zambrano kind of sucks ass too and maybe more frequent appearences can help him. Less innings, more frequent.
I think this is truly though, a sign that nobody knows what the F to do about how bad they are looking.
Perhaps Z to LF would be a good idea when he is done fixing the pen?
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
HA!!!! Would probably field better than Soriano
He already hits better.
by seattlecubsfan on Apr 21, 2010 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions
this is a situation where
they can tick Z off to the point he can be traded and will agree to it mid year…or next year.
If this was a mesaage
it was not directed at the right person. It should have been directed at Soriano if anyone. Z didn’t deserve this, at least not yet.
How they could come to the conclsion that he is the 6th best starter on the team is beyond me. Or how they can decide that he’d be more of a benefit to the team out of the bullpen rather than starting.
I don’t get it. I don’t like it.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 21, 2010 4:12 PM CDT reply actions
Dont be surprised if Soriano screw-ups will get him benched
Lou was not happy with Soriano lil hop and lack of hustle against the Mets on Monday.
Yep, Lou was clearly not happy.
He was so not happy, he started him the next night against the only RHP we’ll face in the series while letting his prized ST wunderkind LHer rot on the bench…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
The only reason Soriano is starting is b/c of the lack of hitting...
By Aram, Soto, and several other hitters. Surprisingly, Soriano has been hitting better than Aram and Soto. The offense has been the key issue with the Cubs so far this season (RP being second). And I know Soriano has been bad via the standards of his salary, but it just shows you how desperate this team is for even a mediocre offense.
Perhaps and i think it would be deservved
But I don’t think the Zambrano move has been. At least not yet.
I don’t like that they are marginalizing $18M a year. Even Rivera only makes $15M and that’s because he plays for the Yankees and has earned that over the years.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 21, 2010 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Too much is being made of the money here.
Once you get on the field, you have to produce, whether you are making $18m, or $400,000.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't believe that he's been given enough time
Yes, he had a bad year last year. Yes, he’s had a rough start to this season, but he had a nice start the other night. If I had to bet right now, I am not convinced that either Silva or Gorzo will be the better option from right now until the end of the season. Zambrano still has impressive career numbers.
If this is meant as a message, I think Z has a right to be outraged, if in fact he is. This was not fair, not in light of a goof like Soriano and the dysfunctional baseball he’s played over the years.
In addition to that, the Cubs have just devalued thier asset. A team still has to use their money wisely and this is not a wise use of that money. Not in my opinion.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 21, 2010 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions
He did not have a bad year
he had an average-pitcher, middle of the rotation year that did not live up to his salary or people’s expectations of an “ace”.
C'mon, for what reason?
He’s gotten off to a bad start for sure, but hasn’t he earned a bit of rope here? Soriano probalby has burnt through all of his.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 21, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
You would have thought Zambrano has, but no
If we are strictly basing it on this year, as of right now Soriano has been our best hitter and Ramirez should be benched
This is the year...
I wouldn't think Zambrano has
And I would not soley base my analysis on what has transpired only this year. Veterans like Z, Ramirez and Soriano deserve some rope. Trouble is that Soriano has burnt through his rope already, at least much more than the other two guys.
This ain’t right..
by jerry morales rules on Apr 21, 2010 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions
This is the beyond stupid.
I’m seriously thinking of not following the team this season.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Apr 21, 2010 4:13 PM CDT reply actions 7 recs
raise your hand if you'll miss shawn....
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions
RE: Whining
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions
raise your hand
if Shawn is smarter than SWL….
by CalCalender on Apr 21, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
IT'S A GODDAM BASEBALL TEAM, THIS DOESN'T REALLY MEAN SHIT....
Holy CHRIST you people are over. the. top. today.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
you are = you're
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Apr 21, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I hate stupidity in all its forms...
including this.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Apr 21, 2010 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
I like how you make some snarky remark about scouting the draft
and say other people are trolling. Perception is everything.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
It's true, this move makes the Cubs worse off
It’s more reasonable to make an argument that the Cubs are going to stink because of a terrible move. (as has been made in this thread ad nauseum) than to sit there and say “raise your hand if you’ll miss Shawn”.
And you switch the subject.
Good job.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
The subject/
No the Cubs being bad is the reason they should start scouting.
Swing and a miss.
0-2. Keep it up and you can get a golden sombrero!
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
how about...
raise your hand if you want CARLOS SILVA to get more innings than Carlos Zambrano.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Apr 21, 2010 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Can I raise my hand
if I want Carlos Silva to get three more starts and then traded without us paying anything?
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
It's the hope.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
::raises hand::
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Yeah, I'll raise my hand.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions
welcome
to my world since the offseason
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I bet you've said this before?
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Apr 21, 2010 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions
he hasn't
i find it funny that all the optimists come out and assume when anyone is negative, they’ve been negative the entire time and are always a “ledge-jumper”, etc
there are some people here that take a rational and objective look at the team and then make their opinions as to the decisions, outlook, etc
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow...
mine was a joke, relax.
I meant as a Cub fan, if you have never thought this, you probably joined the club in 2003.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Apr 21, 2010 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
AND...
would it truly be a “rational” decision that after 13 games, a “shake up” move of Z to the pen, leads to abandoning the team for good?
Hmm.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Apr 21, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
if you value decision-making
in the organization yes
if you view yourself as an avid and intelligent baseball fan and recognize how stupid this move is and can’t understand how or why an organization would act this way and can’t explain it with anything other than incompetence as the explanation… yeah i could see that being a rational way to approach it
i’m tired of emotionally investing myself in something the people making decisions show no awareness or logic towards operating
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Then don't dude!
I am sure this historic franchise will go on without your investment. These are people who actually “have” the job you speak of. Clearly they have done something to get there.
The answer BTW, is NO, abandoning this team due to a “shake up” move after 13 games is NOT a rational decision.
What will be said if all of a sudden they win a ton and Z dominates and keeps games “winable”?
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Apr 21, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
just because it works
doesnt mean its the right decision
and the odds are heavily in favor of this not working
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions
And if it doesn't, Lou will change things.
This is a wakeup call, not only to Z but to the team. For that alone, I’m glad he did it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Apr 21, 2010 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
WHAT??
That is the craziest thing I’ve ever heard! If ot works, and you end up with stats to PROVE that Z is a better reliever that a starter, and let’s say goes on to be the next freakin Mo Rivera…those stats DO mean it was the right decision.
Come on man. I’m not saying this will happen but if it works out somehow, it most certainly WAS the right decision.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Apr 21, 2010 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
z will be a better reliever than a starter
everyone is
but he’ll be less valuable because he’ll throw less innings
the comparison isn’t Z as a starter vs. Z as a reliever, the comparison is Z as a starter to Carlos Silva (or whomever eats those innings) as a starter
and yes you can make bad decisions and get good outcomes. I’d prefer an organization that makes good informed decisions that are more likely to lead to good results
Just because you intentionally walk the pitcher to get to Albert Pujols and Pujols makes an out, doesn’t mean its the right decision
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Nevertheless....
… since bullpen failures have helped cause losses this year, maybe some of those can be turned into wins instead.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
i can't explain it any better way
you’re taking innings from a good pitcher and giving them to a bad pitcher
its not going to help things
sure we might win some games where Z is involved in the pen, but there will likely be more games every 5th day where we are completely out of it and need to use more of the pen than if Z were pitching
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I've never, ever in my life felt the way i do about this franchise right this moment.
This is a new low for me. Literally.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Apr 21, 2010 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh wow. I'm sorry.
I feel bad, but not quite that bad. I can remember a few where I felt lower. But not many.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
I'm sure you'll reconsider but if you don't...
… please come back in October and post a statistical summary of how much more productive you were this summer by NOT following this team. Compare it to previous summers as well. Oh, and see if you can also accurately predict how much goodwill this generated with MrsGoldman (if there is one). ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I agree with you on the stupid
but I will watch.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 21, 2010 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, and...
as an added bonus to this incredibly stupid move… our shitty offense just got even shittier every 5th day. Way to go!
Well, doing things the same way these past 101 years hasn't exactly been working out for us.....
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Letting overpaid inconsistant players continue to get their way?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions
No…Making short-sighted decisions that are not made via critical thinking nor optimal to win maximization.
by all4tookie on Apr 21, 2010 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You are a super troll all you do
is follow people’s criticisms with BS comments about Cub history which is irrelevant and empty posts.
Who ARE you?
And where did you come from? I’m already annoyed with your posts and you have 50.
by kanderber on Apr 21, 2010 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
He is 2883 god dammit!
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Apr 21, 2010 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions
we make a great team you and I...
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
ONE OF US. ONE OF US
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 21, 2010 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions
It is
Anyone who thinks it’s a good idea, doesn’t understand baseball at all. You don’t take a frontline starter and make him an 8th inning setup man!! NEVER, EVER! Stupidest thing I’ve ever seen from the dumbest franchise on the planet when it comes to the product on the field.
"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"
Well
My first response is always to try and understand the reasoning…
Perhaps they think Z’s workhorsiness will allow him to pitch three innings every other day.
But if the plan is to have Z be a traditional 1 inning reliever…
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
I'm guessing he's a long man...
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Apr 21, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Not just a long-man -
he should be a 3-inning save guy.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
well
that might be doable, I suppose.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Problem is
he can’t do that every day. He could pitch 3 inning saves maybe 2-3 times a week though. That would take a lot of pressure off the pen. But that’s assuming he’s effective in that role. I hate the idea of making him into a one-inning reliever, but that’s basically the role of every reliever on a Lou-managed team.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
Also, Marshall may be in the rotation at times.
He is the long guy now.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Apr 21, 2010 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
That's about the only scenario...
that I can think of right now that makes sense. Though maybe something else will come to me (because the other option of: the Cubs are morons and I’m a bigger moron for being a fan is less than palatible).
by CubsWin!Oregon on Apr 21, 2010 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions
It makes even less sense as a long man
Because in games where you need a long man you are likely already getting killed and the innings are lower leverage.
Maybe in the off-days Z will play second base.
He may be a better hitter than Font or Baker
Looks like you're the one who's trolling
Baker and Fontenot have been alright has of late. Aram and Soto slump has been the main issue.
Baker's hitting .240
although the couple of HR’s have made his OPS look a tad bit better than it deserves to be.
A-Ram has been bad but Soto is hitting .286
Well it depends on how many IPs Z is going to have
If Z is going to still pitch 150 IPs out of the pen (2-3 IPs every other day) that could work.
In addition you have him at-bat in late innings and save a position player. With all the platoons we have going on, this could really help.
It’s a question of Gorz/Silva in the rotation and Z in the pen vs. Gorz/Silva in the pen and Z in the rotation.
How does this matter if we don't get any runs?
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Apr 21, 2010 4:18 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
unfortunately, it seems my viewing time will be cut 40% this season
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
I like the shot it sends to the entire team
It tells everyone their spots aren’t safe, consistently produce or else. Maybe it will light a fire under our under performing batters. Besides Z hasn’t been great for a few years maybe this gives him the kick in the butt many of us have wanted to give him.
"I like my players to be married and in debt. That's the way you motivate them." - Ernie Banks
There is a simple question that shows how moronic this move is:
Who would you rather pitch more innings, Carlos Zambrano or Carlos Silva?
We are about to give more innings to a salary dump than one of the best pitchers in francise history. And we’re going to do it on purpose.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Apr 21, 2010 4:21 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Well
if I am only given 2010 stats to make this decision, I have to go with Seattle Carlos.
Per history, I am doubtful of that decision.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Apr 21, 2010 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
You'd be wise trusting history.
There’s a much larger and more dependable sample size there.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Apr 21, 2010 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed but
I like Silva’s start. I prefer to play things by ear with 150 some games left.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Apr 21, 2010 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions
And this is going to last how long?
And it could help the team win games because the bullpen has been awful?
I’m thinking you need to see how this actually plays out before you condemn it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If the team signed Aaron Miles today...
and said they were starting him over Fontenot/Baker in an attempt to revive the offense, should I wait to see how that plays out, as well?
We’re taking a good pitcher and limiting his innings in favor of a guy who was a salary dump. This is desperate, senseless, and a bad solution to a legitimate problem.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Apr 21, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 13 recs
im going to go ahead
and rec this
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Apr 21, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
This is the best I've seen it said.
We’re taking probably our 2nd best pitcher putting him in a spot where he gets half of the innings and taking someone who has had an ERA under 4.00 once in his career (with MIN) and giving him more innings.
Aaron Miles is dead to me.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Apr 21, 2010 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions
The problem is...
you are assuming that this move is both
a) permanent
and
b) not connected to some other move to come we don’t know about
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions
i'd say the problem
is you’re assuming this move is:
a) not permanent
and
b) connected to some other move
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
@PWSullivan:
Lou says move of Z to bullpen may not be temporary. “This makes all the sense in the world.”
Meanwhile, Z says that the move IS temporary.
Z reports that he was told that “as soon as we get an eighth-inning guy, I’m back to the rotation.”
Yeah, this will end well.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
There's no way to know what's going to happen until it happens.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Man Al, I thought you were channelling Yogi Berra there for a minute...
"Look, what do you want me to do?"
Exactly.
If this is Lou/JH sending Z a message, then Shawn is right and Lou’s/JH’s stupid.
But if there are teams that might take Silva off our hands if he makes a few more starts…
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
Well until
a.) this move becomes un-done
or
b.) something else connected to this happens
I’ll keep my position that this is indefensibly stupid. More later…
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Apr 21, 2010 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Thank you.
This is exactly what I’m trying to tell Al below… it’s a bad move statistically, and it has the extra-special bonus of humiliating one of our long-time top performers for no reason.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Who has been humiliated?
This is not humiliation. It is a strategic move by management. If I work for General Motors as a line supervisor in Michigan, and they decide I will better serve the company as a line supervisor in Tennessee, I am going to Tennessee. Plain and simple.
wait - are you supporting her point of view?
or are you telling her to go to Tennessee… ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
oh, and would you trade your green in for orange?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
If you work as a line supervisor in Michigan....
….and they tell you that because the night janitorial shift in Mobile has been sketchy, you’re going to be working there, well, you might be a bit testy.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Thats the point
He could move back to the rotation in two weeks time having missed a few starts & be on fire for the rest of the year. Who knows
we should've just traded Z for Livan Hernandez
right Al?
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Why wasn't this comment in the Braden Looper thread?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
What if they pitch the same amount?
What if Silva puts up a 3.00 ERA? Gorz too?
What if Zambrano is going to get 3 IPs everytime he goes out and they send him out in tight ball games?
Z has stuff that can work in the pen. Gorz and Silva are marginal. Ride Gorz and Silva in the rotation – have Z cover the pen for the meantime. Once Gorz or Silva falter – bring Z back into the fold.
by IllinoisCubs on Apr 21, 2010 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions
If Z pitches 3 innings every time out...
I would change my tune. But I don’t think that’s what they’re planning here.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Apr 21, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Not to mention
is this even possible? That’s gotta be hell on a pitchers arm for someone who isn’t used to that type of stress.
What if Baker hits .350
and Derrek Lee hits 50 HR’s
What if?
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Apr 21, 2010 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Then Baker would start everyday right?
It’s unlikely but Gorz and Silva have pitched well so far.
I don’t have confidence that this will happen and it will be approached this way but why not wait to see how it will be used and how/when it will be cut off before going crazy?
by IllinoisCubs on Apr 21, 2010 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
We are a national laughingstock
and find new ways to hold our lofty status every day!
"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"
by Itchy on Apr 21, 2010 4:23 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
So is this one of the 7 signs of the Apocolypse?
I like this move.
"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will
Mom! My baseball team did something I don't like!!!!!!!! RAWR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:24 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
it's funny
because you never miss a chance to point out a Riot blunder.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
And you never miss a chance be a human shield for all things Cub.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
it's funny
because if you scroll up, you’ll see where I say “I think this is a mistake.”
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions
You and I both know you don't really mean it.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions
These days
I don’t know what you mean anymore.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions
April Fool's?!?!?!
I haven’t decided if this is where I think Z fits best, but I applaud the Cubs for having the courage to tell Z he is headed to the pen. I would have been scared to be Michael Barretted, I bet Lou and Larry were fighting to hide behind each other. If Lou and Larry think it is best, so be it.
I said over the off season and was skewered on BCB that Z isn’t an ace and if we could trade him we should. My main point was I don’t see the Cubs winning it all with Z leading the way. As I’ve said a million times I hope I’m wrong.
I wish at least the Hawks were doing alright in the playoffs to divert my attention, oh well, rough Chicago sports week.
Chicago Cubs baseball is on the air...
I have to go to work...
so if people are replying/countering me and wondering why I’m not responding… well that’s why.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Apr 21, 2010 4:26 PM CDT reply actions
Worried? Shawn? TJ?
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
I'm fine...
thanks, though.
I’m really, really, really pissed at a team I love/hate. That’s all. I’ll write more today. If nothing else, this provides an excellent example for my next piece on WAR. Hopefully, we can turn this into a “teachable moment.”
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Apr 21, 2010 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions
The only bad thing...
is this will probably motivate me to skip my softball match today so I can write about how stupid this is in more detail.
More to come. For now, meetings!
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Apr 21, 2010 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I really hate this idea.
The fact that it encourages the mentality of “GIve it a shot! Why not?” fan discussion drives me crazy.
Seriously. Ugh.
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
by Allie on Apr 21, 2010 4:28 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Well ,yeah, "why not" is the answer for this sort of move
What else can the Cubs do at this point for the pen. The only thing Lou can do at this point for the offense is possibly start Nady and Colvin more often over Soriano, but that wont be enough considering ARAM has been shitty as of late. The only answer is (temporarily) moving Z to the pen until the offense finally gets it together because the pen really has little room more error. It could also mean that Lou is sending a message to the players.
yeah
i’m not sold on the “let’s send a message” junk or the “let it play out, thye’ll get together”.
The offense is largely the same as last year, right… and last year’s offense was AWFUL.
Meh. I glad everyone else is so happy about the move and “being right”. I don’t like it. And think that even if it “works” its not a good move. But at least they “did something” for a “wake up call”.
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
Im not happy nor angry at this move
I find it “intriguing” at the very least. I hope it works out, but I would rather hope that Aram gets it going so the offense can be a bit more consistent.
i'd be more intrigued if someone else was doing it
but the fact that the ONLY baseball team I care about is apparently already in “lets try it, whats the worst that can happen” mode is upsetting and troublesome.
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
Agreed wholeheartedly.
I hate this move, but even more, I hate the ridiculous “throw anything at the wall and see what sticks” mentality that led to this move.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Big Z problem in bullpen
“I’m not giving him the pink backpack; YOU give him the pink backpack.”
"Lollygaggers!"
by mlf on Apr 21, 2010 4:28 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
I bet Z volunteers to carry the pink backpack.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
"Hey Z: Is that the pink backpack or are you just glad to see me?"
"Look, what do you want me to do?"
twzs
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Historical note
The last time Z pitched in relief was on June 28, 2002, when he pitched 0.1 innings in a 13-9 loss to the White Sox at Comiskey. Wood was the starter that day, and other Cub relievers used included Jeff Fassero, Joe Borowski, Kyle Farnsworth and Francis Beltran. Zambrano was ineffective in the outing, walking two hitters. The Cubs blew an early 8-0 lead.
Besides Z, the only player on either team who played that day who’s still with the same team is Paul Konerko.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
That was an awful game.
I left the Cell that day, with my Wood jersey on, to yells of “Cubs suck!” I turned around and said to the Sox fans yelling it, “I can’t argue with you today.”
Shut ’em right up.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Good strategy
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
I'm not quite sure what to make of it
Let’s put aside that this move just reinforces what I believe is Lou’s obsession with the bullpen as the root of the problem. While I believe he knows this offense is bad, I think if a dramatic move was to be made, it should have been done with the offense.
If you are to ask me right now who I think will end up with more quality starts between the 3 between now and the end of the year, I’m going to say Z. But…most of these will be quality starts in definition only (6 IP, 2-3 ER). That said, the guy forces the pen to pitch 3-4 innings every time he starts due to his pitch count, so if Silva and Gorzo can continue to pitch consistently I can value this move.
But where does it go from here? What if Z struggles in the pen? How will his psyche handle the move? Those answers I do not have.
Let's just look at this logically...
Zambrano’s WAR as a starter is higher than any of the top setup pitchers’ in baseball… so even if he’s amazing he’s still worth less to the team. And this makes us better how?
Someday we'll go all the way...
What if he used and is as effective as Marmol in '07 & '08
and he sees more innings than Marmol did?
While Gorzlennay and Silva work well in the rotation? That would shift around your WARs
by IllinoisCubs on Apr 21, 2010 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't you see?
this magically “wakes up” the offense! and um… sends a message! because those veterans obviously haven’t realized they’re struggling!
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
"oh no! i might be replaced by tracy!"
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Apr 21, 2010 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I like this
For the pure reason the team CARES enough to try and make any sort of changes to win.
Knee jerk reaction.
This move can be defended but only by using our starters FIRST THREE starts of the year. Anyone who really thinks Silva and Gorz are better pitchers than Z and that they need to be given the bulk of the innings is mistaken. Obviously this can be undone pretty quick…. no doubt it will be too once Silva turns back into Silva. And, how is Z going to handle this? He’s already emotionally immature, will he see this as a wakeup call or a slap in the face? My guess is that this is the first step towards the end of his Cub career, and things aren’t going to end well. Just what this team needs, more drama. They should have just made the best, long-term baseball decision instead of trying to get cute and send messages. Whatever, it won’t last long.
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey
by pageian on Apr 21, 2010 4:31 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Can it be undone?
I would imagine that it’d be like Spring Training all over again going from pitching 1 IP to 6 IP again.
I don't think it's saying Gorz and Silva are better than Z.
It’s saying our bullpen needs help. We we obviously aren’t going to put Demp and Wells in there because they’ve been the most consistent. How bout we see how it goes before everyone get’s all up in arms. Can’t get much worse than it already is.
United we stand and united we'll fall......down on our knees the day we win it all!
by Bricks and Ivy on Apr 21, 2010 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly. This hurts Z's value immeasurably.
If we were looking to potentially deal Z at the deadline – and we should have been – then that job just got a whole lot tougher, and the return just got a whole lot smaller.
Dammit.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Z wasn't going to be traded, period.
So your comment is moot.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You have no idea if he would have been, or will be. Neither do I.
If things went south quickly, the Cubs definitely would have explored options. They have in the past. And if things were bad enough, players have waived NTCs dozens of times.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Does Z have an injury that they're trying to nurse along here?
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand. - Homer J Simpson
probably just his pride.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah this will help that all powerful offense
Really? Bench Rammy and Soriano, they are playing god awful. When is this mastermind hitting guru Jaramillo going to come into play?
Putting Z in the pen is a great idea, now when Lilly and Dempster go those 6 innings (because we all know they go deep into a game) we can have Caridad/Grabow/that kid from ND blow the lead and effectively use Zambrano in the 8th down 5 to 3. Good call.
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 21, 2010 4:32 PM CDT reply actions
or you can put Z in
for the 6th, 7th and 8th
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
Sigh...it doesnt matter what kind of hitting coach a team has
I swear fans just tend to overrate the importance of a freekin hitting coach! A teams offense depends solely on the damn players, not the hitting coach. He can only do so much to assist in making some adjustments to the mechanics; however, if a team swings and K-out on stupid pitches, then that is clearly the players problem, not the hitting coach.
Well by my calculations
they hit a lot better with the same team aside from Byrd with a different hitting coach. Granted it is only the first month but come on man. It is HIS job to get them out of this funk, what is he getting paid for?
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 21, 2010 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Sorry to tell you this
But Rudy is doing his job. He can assist the players on mechanics and whatnot, but a teams offense largely depends on the hitters ability, but their ability is independent of Rudy’s presence.
Is he?
Because guys like Ramirez should be out of slumps like this by now. And when did I say he wasn’t doing his job? I simply was venting as to when his EXPERTISE would come into play, I apologize.
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 21, 2010 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions
ramirez's problems
seem to be bad timing and trying to hit the ball to russia in every AB
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Apr 21, 2010 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions
and trying to pull an outside pitch
been hanging with Soriano for too long.
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 21, 2010 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions
soriano
is one of the few people thats actually hitting
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Apr 21, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Listen
you and I both know he is a bust for what they are paying him. I’ve seen him go on tears for 3 weeks and then die off for 2 months. I don’t care if he is hitting for what three games now? He can’t field for anything. For as much as he is making he ISN’T hitting enough.
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 21, 2010 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions
even after his bad first few days
he’s nearly hitting .300. How much does he need to hit to satisfy you?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 21, 2010 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions
How about
When he played in that pitcher’s ballpark in Washington D.C. or when he was on the Rangers and Yankees for starters?
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 21, 2010 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions
actually I could live with his hitting the way it is now
it’s his defensive miscues that are maddening. If he would just take his glove out of his ass, and play a decent LF, then his .289/.319/.489 would be passable.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
He's hitting well
But unfortunately for him there’s more to playing baseball than hitting, and he’s still not hitting well enough to justify paying him $19 million this year.
you and I both know he is a bust for what they are paying him.
i do know that, and that is not my point
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Apr 21, 2010 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't watch a game
and determine who did well and who didn’t based on what salary they make. Whether he’s overpaid or not has no bearing on the argument of whether he’s playing well or not.
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey
Okay well then
this goes back to my point ealrier, put Colvin in. He obviously is the better rounded ballplayer as of right now.
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 21, 2010 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Based on what
stats? Mystical unicorns sighted per 9? His fielding is better. His hitting is not nearly. Soriano’s cumulative is still preferable.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Apr 21, 2010 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Cumulative what?
Home runs he hits when we are down by 5? How about those fielding errors that cost a game? The lack of speeed he has now? Those clutch hits he gathers?
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 21, 2010 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, it does
Baseball teams do not exist in a vacuum – players have value, and though Soriano has hit well this season, he is nowhere near as valuable as his salary suggests he should be. And when you have several players who are underperforming relative to their salary, it hamstrings your ability to add payroll to bring in players who can fix your deficiencies.
I'm not sure this is a permanent move
Without moving Zambrano, the other choice was probably Tom Gorzelanny. And the Cubs have 3 lefties in the bullpen now. So this lets them get more right handed in the bullpen for the short-term.
I will not be surprised if Zambrano is back in the rotation by May 14th. 3 weeks.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
they are pulling a Joba on Z
I mean it comes down to is this a move to put the best 5 in the rotation (which is how it is being interpreted – and critiqued – in most of these posts) or is it about which guy is best suited to help the bullpen? Or neither?
Joba belongs in the pen.
He’s been mediocre as a starter. He’ll probably succeed Rivera at closer when Mariano retires, and that’s where he belongs.
When I first saw Z throw in spring training 2001, I said, “future closer” about him. He might become a very good one.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Steve Stone said...
the same thing in ’06, but about Carlos Marmol. Maybe Lou is envisioning a “Nasty Boys” 2K10 kinda deal in the bullpen.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
i think if there was ever a time to do it, it is now
while we don’t know how silva and gorzo will fare the rest of the year, it may be a long time before the Cubs have this level of depth in the starting rotation (esp when you throw Marshall in as backup) where they can safely try and experiment like this and actually give it the time it deserves to stick.
by BeltwayCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly!
The rotation will be fine. Now the bullpen has a better pitcher.
If it doesn’t work, Lou will switch Z back. If it does work, the team wins more games.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
agree 100%
it won’t make the rotation worse, it can only make the bullpen better.
by BeltwayCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions
that's plain silly
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by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Nasty boys
Both Z and Marmol do have nasty stuff. On days they’re both really on, the nasty boys analogy may actually be appropriate. I hope it works out.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
Cool - all we have to do is swap Silva and Marshall
and we’ll have the “Nasty Amigos” to finish up games. And Lou will get into a locker room fight with one of them.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I like where your heads at.
My money would be on Z fighting him.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
If Silva AND Gorzellany both post a season as good as Z's career marks, I'll eat my keyboard.
Z had a bad opening day start. The team is out of control.
I’d call for Hendry’s firing, but I have a feeling that Ricketts feels the same way, and that may have precipitated this entire chain of events anyway.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
pitch count
Z has had problems for quite some time in getting through more than six innings because of his usual high pitch count. In most of his outings he was taxing the pen himself. This is worth a try to me.
"It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive." W.C. Fields
Agreed
I would add that most starters these days have the same problem. My theory (unproven) is that hitters purposely try to work counts and foul off as many pitches as they can to get starters removed so they can feast on weaker middle relievers as early in the game as possible. This is the managers’ own fault for buying into the theory about high pitch counts being a danger to a pitcher’s health. It leads to more offense, lots of disruptive pitching changes, and a general decline in the quality of play. It hasn’t been shown to prevent injuries to starting pitchers, either, for that matter.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
I think we should make Ted Lilly our SS.
Then he won’t have to feel guilty doing head first slides to get on base.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
Oh yeah, by a long way!
And he’s just a SETUP man!!! I’m sure Larussa and Duncan are just laughing their ass off at the Cubs now!! What a complete joke this team is!
"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"
I sure hope Gorz and Silva pitch well the next month...
cause if they don’t, the “Z back to the Starting Rotation” chants are going to be deafening…
Check out the Video Blog I host: WebSmart TV
by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 4:35 PM CDT reply actions
Right.
This isn’t permanent… unless it works.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The odds of Silva AND Gorzelanny matching Z's career stats are close to zero.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Well, that matches the odds on this team getting ot the playoffs regardless of where Z pitches from.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions
This move also hurts the Cubs' opportunities to rebuild.
There was a chance that Z could have been moved if he rattled off a few good starts – like last nights – in a row.
After this demotion to middle relief, the odds of that happening are zero.
This is an “I’ve been put on notice, so I need to make something happen immediately, no matter how batshit crazy” type of move.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
You honestly think there was a chance Z could be moved?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Chances Z approves a trade
that only lets him bat once a year?
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
Substantially higher than they were yesterday, I'll admit.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
And you think the Red Sox would take that trade?
ok.
I bet I could trade Derek Lee for Albert Pujols straight up too.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I think you should brush up on your current events.
Matsuzaka and the Red Sox currently hate each other, and both parties are looking to get out of their current situation.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
And you should brush up on how trades work.
They aren’t going to just take a significant jab to the face just because they are peeved at the guy.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions
I have no idea what you're even referring to.
Are you saying that BOS wouldn’t want to trade Dice-K because it would be a “jab to the face”? The guy has sucked for two years, is currently hurt, and is openly feuding with management.
They’d love to replace him with Z. For the Cubs, it would save money.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Clarification - he's sucked since the beginning of last year.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
LOL...you want the team to save money....LOL
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd like to congratulate Al
for creating the most active thread this site has ever seen. Even the game threads don’t get this much play.
Linus: Life is rarely all one way, Charlie Brown. You win some, you lose some. Charlie Brown: Really? Gee, that'd be neat.
I think is nuts
but then I am the stupid person who thought that 5 outfielder rotation was nuts. Oh wait it WAS nuts.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
Um kind of my point
They ended up with 5 outfielders and no one good for the bench.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 21, 2010 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions
This only works if Lou thinks back to the 70s
and has Z and Marshall each pitch 6-7 innings a week over three appearances. Basically take the bullpen out of the equation completely and go to a 10 man staff –
- 5 starters,
- Z and Marshall as the primary multi-inning relievers,
- another long man for blow out losses (maybe 3 guys sharing one spot on the Iowa-Chicago shuttle to keep everybody fresh)
- Marmol
- a LOOGY (Grabow)
If that is the case, then in a typical 63 inning week, the starters would pitch 42-49 innings, Z and Marshall would pitch 6-8 each (so 12-16), and the other relievers would pitch 3-6 total.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Apr 21, 2010 4:42 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
+1
Everyone is ruling this out or just not thinking about it. I personally don’t have that much confidence in it happening but who knows. Let’s see how it pans out.
by IllinoisCubs on Apr 21, 2010 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Z should look on the bright side and
study Eckersley’s story .. could be his road to the Hall!
One of Lee Elia's 15%
Minus the drinking problem...
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
But he is trying to get his head together
which can be compared to Eckersley’s problem(s)
One of Lee Elia's 15%
by waiting4cubs on Apr 21, 2010 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions
So let me get this straight, our "ace" is now in the bullpen.
And the rest of the rotation stays the same with Lilly taking his spot?
Exactly. And while we're at it, let's go back to last year and bench Lee for Hoff.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Demp in '08?
Check out the Video Blog I host: WebSmart TV
by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe.
I think the whole “ace” concept is overblown. Every pitcher has to go out there and win. Period.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
come on Al
Look how well having multiple emporers worked for Rome its not like having 5 people all trying to call the shots wouldnt be better than having one guy…geez havent you heard that 5 heads are better than one.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
APRIL 21, 2009 - Cubs Bench D-Lee for Hoffpauir!
This is EXACTLY as stupid as that would have been.
Z hasn’t even been that bad. Do you think that Boston is going to bump Beckett from the rotation when Dice-K gets back, because Beckett has gotten knocked around in 1 or 2 of his starts? No.
Should the Cubs bench Aramis now for Tracy? Should the Cubs have benched D-Lee for Hoffpauir last year? Absolutely not!
This is the kind of “decision” that people make when they’ve been told they’re about to be fired, and they start making wild changes for the sake of making changes.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Apr 21, 2010 4:43 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
i agree with this
but rammy does need a day or two off
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Apr 21, 2010 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions
bench long term
NO - 2-3 games, yes.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
I love this site
Everyone on here rails against Z for how he isnt an ace and we need to move him…now that Lou does something to take the pressure off of Z being our “Ace” everyone is up in arms against it. Oh and I guess if we sent Gorzo or Silva to the pen (btw Silva may be starting to do good as a starter so why move him from that role) instead of Z that would help our offense?
Just please help me to understand how this move hurts us being able to improve our offense…which typically (at least this is what I have always heard at the beginning of the season) lags behind pitching. Pile that on top of the fact you have Lee and Ramirez trying to do too damn much and you have a sagging offense. Maybe this is the Barrett Zambrano fight/Lou getting ejected that will shake up this team.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
it's a riot isn't it?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Z's a good hitter ....
e…. …maybe Lou will get him some more AB’s from the pen
The best defense is a good offense.....Lou Pinella...still hasn't managed the Cubs to a post season win. D. Lee still doesn't have a post seasson RBI for Cubs...ditto for Soriano
"It's so simple, it's unbelievable," manager Lou Piniella said. "When you score runs, you win."
Bottom line is...
We can continue to argue on whether this move was by far the worse in the history of MLB or an ingenious move by Lou. The answer will be provided by Z’s performance in the pen and whether this move will be permanent.
No matter how this turns out
this is no where near the worst move in the history of the MLB.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah I know I was being a bit extreme with that comment
but you get the point.
Correct.....
The move can’t be judged until later….
The best defense is a good offense.....Lou Pinella...still hasn't managed the Cubs to a post season win. D. Lee still doesn't have a post seasson RBI for Cubs...ditto for Soriano
"It's so simple, it's unbelievable," manager Lou Piniella said. "When you score runs, you win."
That doesn't make sense.
Well… Let’s go see if we can make this little kitty purr.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
new RP setup
7th inning: Russell (or Gray hopefully)
8th inning: Big Z
9th inning: Marmolade
How about this:
Even days:
- 7th/8th: Marshall
- 9th: Marmol if winning, Gray if losing
Odd days when Cubs are winning or down 1:
- 7th/8th/9th: Zambrano
Odd days when Cubs are down 2+
- 7th – Grabow
- 8th – Shark
- 9th – Russell
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Apr 21, 2010 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok, Gray then
That gets us back to 11 pitchers anyway.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Apr 21, 2010 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions
This is the dumbest shit in the world
Take our second best pitcher and send him to the bullpen. The inmates are running the assylum. He was awesome yesterday.
Anyone who is for this does not understand baseball
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
Z was good yesterday, not "awesome".
And if he was awesome, the pen could use some of that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
no 2 earned runs with 9ks
is pretty awesome
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
by fischisgod on Apr 21, 2010 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Due respect, I understand baseball just fine, thanks.
Unless they start talking about a College of Coaches again, I say try it. What the hell. If it works, great. If not, Z moves back into the rotation in June and we go from there. I’m just glad the Cubs realized we’re nearly 10% of the way through the season and this team is playing like they are allergic to RISP and tied games in the 7th.
"Look, what do you want me to do?"
no
you dont send a horse to the pen. When u are conting on Carlos silva and tom gorzelanny
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
Z says he wants back in the rotation for the playoffs
"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"
Key quote from the article
Is it temporary?
“Temporary?” Zambrano said. “He told me that probably Randy (Bush) or Jim Hendry was looking for an eighth inning guy. And when they find a guy and trade (for a) guy and get that guy here, I will be back to the rotation. Right now they need somebody to step up in the eighth inning. I don’t like to be a reliever. I don’t want to be a reliever, but this team needs somebody to step up and help the bullpen.”
Piniella had a slightly different spin on the conversation.
“Temporary?” Piniella said. “We’re trying to stabliize things and win some baseball games. This will give Jim (Hendry) and the front office more opportunities to hopefully do something (via a trade). If not, this could be not temporary.”
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Sounds like this is going to end in a massive confrontation.
The Cubs are being run by amateurs. This is a demotion, which they spun like hell to Z – trying to couch it as something it is not.
When the truth becomes apparent, it’s going to be rock bottom for the 2010 Cubs.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
A "confrontation"?
You really don’t understand how a baseball team is run, do you?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Please explain.
If you think that Carlos Zambrano is going to be happy in middle relief in August, I’d like to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
It's April.
We have no idea what’s going to happen in August. Z might be the closer by then. Or back in the rotation.
Again — before you slam this move, how about seeing how it works out?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Should we swap Ramirez and Tracy's roles, while we're at it?
There’s a reason that most teams don’t send their Opening Day starters into middle relief on April 21, Al – no matter how ineffective they may have been.
It hurts egos, causes resentment, and is counterproductive to the goal of the team winning. If you prefer stats – this move has a negative WAR. If you prefer psychology – this move has the potential to fracture the clubhouse. If you prefer homespun commonsense – it’s unnecessary and a massive overreaction to demote a long-time star contributor three weeks into a season.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I disagree with your pop psychology analysis.
Mine is: this is a wakeup call to the entire team.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Happy?
If you think that Carlos Zambrano is going to be happy in middle relief in August,
Frankly I don’t give a fig whether he’s happy in August or not. Just WIN baby. The 1970s Oakland A’s hated each other, the manager and the owner, BUT THEY WON.
Z will be plenty happy if the Cubs are 10 games in first in August.
Winning cures a lot of ills.
"Look, what do you want me to do?"
I'm not exactly nuts about your personal shots at me, frankly.
I know it’s your site, but you are typically a lot more polite.
I’m not saying things to you like “you have no idea how a baseball team is built”, or “you really don’t understand how a baseball team is run”, or “spare us your uninformed analysis” or so on – and frankly, I’d like to think that I’ve added quite a bit of analysis on these boards (and “and another thing”) over the years.
So even if you disagree with my “pop psychology”, you can be civil.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Not trying to make this personal.
I strongly disagree with your view of these events.
Better?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Apologies for that.
Again, I strongly disagree with your view.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Why are you so quick
to assume Zambrano into a closer, Al?
Carlos Marmol is fine, for one — and two, Zambrano has control problems also. Marmol has better stuff.
There should be no assumptions that Zambrano should be a closer. Especially if the one we have is fine.
2010 is OUR year.
appearently neither do the cubs
i thought we had some sabr people there… This is stupid
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
Well that won't be an issue if the offense doesn't start scoring consistently
The best defense is a good offense.....Lou Pinella...still hasn't managed the Cubs to a post season win. D. Lee still doesn't have a post seasson RBI for Cubs...ditto for Soriano
"It's so simple, it's unbelievable," manager Lou Piniella said. "When you score runs, you win."
This is going to end HORRIBLY.
Today’s move is exactly akin to the Bradley suspension, or sending Sammy home on day 162 and badmouthing him all winter. The Cubs are creating animosity and destroying the value of their assets, for NO REASON WHATSOEVER.
In fact, it’s shockingly counterproductive. Do the Cubs really believe, that after 7 years in their rotation, Z was going to post a 9.25 ERA?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Apr 21, 2010 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
You have got to be joking.
This move is nothing like those moves. If you really believe that, you don’t understand human nature, nor the nature of how a baseball team is built.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'd say the same to you, Al
It’s pretty clear that Z has a different interpretation of this move than the front office does. It’s either a communications breakdown, or the team is trying to soft-sell Z and not tell him what they’re actually doing.
They just turned Carlos Zambrano into a middle reliever after 4 starts, because they didn’t like his opening day performance.
These little “spin control” situations tend to turn into massive conflagrations when, say, Carlos Zambrano realizes he’s been demoted and lied to.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Uh-oh...now he'll be really mad.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions
There's no way I can help you understand this, so I'm going to stop trying.
“Massive conflagration”? How do you know Z has been “lied to”? Were you in on the meeting between Lou and Z? If so, enlighten us.
If not, spare us your uninformed analysis.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Z and Lou are saying mutually exclusive things.
I’m sure that Carlos Zambrano, of all people, will take his demotion, which was both fair and earned, with a cool head and calm demeanor.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I read the comments of both Lou and Z.
I don’t see them as mutually exclusive.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think you need to take into account
That Lou is going to say something different to the media than he says to Z. If he says its temporary every nad outing that Z has or every bad start that Silva or Gorz has is going to bring a flurry of when are you moving Z back to the rotation. Anytime you talk to the media you try not to talk in absolutes.
"All of us are in the gutter...some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
Certainly. But to tell Z "this is temporary", and tell the media "this may be permanent" is different.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Agree with you on that
I think the break in the communication is on Z’s part. Again it is all assumption but I would think that Lou would tell him not to comment on whether this was temporary or permanent.
"All of us are in the gutter...some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
Unfortunately
Hendry doesn’t know how or has forgotten how a baseball team is built. They jacked the bullpen up since day one with Lou running this team. Now the BS is coming home to roost. This is a panic move, and I don’t give a shit what Lou says.
playoffs??
PLAYOFF?? DON’T TALK ABOUT PLAYOFFS! pLAYOFFS?????
I just hope we can win a game!
Another game!
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
I'm talkin' PRACTICE
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 21, 2010 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions
FWIW
This thread is now (at the time of posting this) over 700 comments. If it slows down, continue in the game preview thread which will post at 5 pm CDT.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It ain't slowing down
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Can we change the title of this post to
“Cubs Send Zambrano To Bullpen – BCB EXPLODES!!!!”
Check out the Video Blog I host: WebSmart TV
by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 4:54 PM CDT reply actions
He seems to be one of those starters who gets better
as the game goes along….middle relief doesn’t seem like a good fit for him
unless as the game "goes along" something doesn't go his way....
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions
same was said about Wood
when I would tell people he should be closing, and what happened when he was moved?
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
The problem with Wood was that his velocity dropped dramatically around pitch #50.
This situation is not analogous, and this move is, to quote Yahoo – “weapons-grade stupid”.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
OK
One starter had to go to the pen once Lily came back. The pen needs some help. That part I get.
But starters are more valuable than relievers. That is a fact—that’s why they get paid more.
So it is only logical to move your worst starter to the bullpen. Silva and Gorz aren’t going to pitch this well all year, and Z isn’t going to pitch this poorly.
This would be like moving Cutler to wideout because the Bears wideouts have stunk, and move Caleb Hanie to starting QB because he looked good in the preseason.
DEJESUS!!!
by tomas21 on Apr 21, 2010 4:57 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
LOL
Though it makes more sense to put Cutler on the offensive line, considering how bad that part of the team has been.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
or defensive line
or free safety.
or guard.
ugh.
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
As a Packer fan I endorse this move
"All of us are in the gutter...some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
Trying not to troll
But as a Cardinals fan this move makes me really happy. Zambrano hasn’t been an ace for awhile, but even if he’s a LOCKDOWN reliever (which is very much in doubt given his command issues), the Cubs still won’t win as many games as they would with him as the 3.90 ERA starter he’s been the past few years.
Not afraid to nitpick
We'll show you!!!!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Just as long as the Brewers dont win the divison Im ok with u guy winning u guys r awesome
"Women...you can't live without them, and they can't pee standing up." Rube Baker
Anyone miss Jason Marquis yet?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 5:01 PM CDT reply actions
watch your language...
Check out the Video Blog I host: WebSmart TV
by digitalbenjamin on Apr 21, 2010 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions
i thought he got a pretty crap deal
everyone obsessed with the money he got paid, but i thought he had decent stuff and was a solid 4/5 starter.
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
Great there goes one of our power bats. This is so stupid most of the ppl that are for this are the Zambrano bashers and cant stand him anyways. 2006 all over again
"Women...you can't live without them, and they can't pee standing up." Rube Baker
If Z pitches 4 innings per 3-game or 4-game series in relief
He would end up with just about 200 IP for the season. Will Lou have the balls to pitch him that way?
Having Z come in to pitch 3 innings after each one of Gorz’s and Lilly’s starts could be interesting, as it would force teams to consider not being all RH against the starters.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Apr 21, 2010 5:03 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Maybe
He’ll pitch 200 IP in relief, a la Mike Marshall for LA in 1974.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
See, I'd like to see Lou manage the pen that way.
I won’t hold my breath waiting, though.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Will anybody in the media even ask Lou the question?
I hope somebody like Bruce Miles will consider incurring Lou’s potential wrath by asking if he’s willing to be unconventional.
The team has 7 decent or better than decent starters. In 2009, the Cubs’ average starter pitched 170 innings, and the season lasted 1445 innings.
If Lou uses all 7 starters to their full innings potential, that would be 1190 innings, leaving 255 innings for the rest of the bullpen for blowouts, LOOGYs, etc.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Apr 21, 2010 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions
This is so awesome on so many levels. For instance:
The 2010 season has instantly become a joke. What’s next, multiple coaches?
Let’s take the better player, give him less work, and give the career suck-ass a lead role!
Just think of all the dtpollitt n SWL posts we can come up with?!
This season is over…BUT THE FUN’S JUST BEGUN!!
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Just think of all the dtpollitt n SWL posts we can come up with?!
woo!
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Apr 21, 2010 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions
didn't Silva
perform pretty well in Philly as a reliever?
This just in!
In a move designed to counter the Cubs strategery, the Cardinals have announced that Joe Mather will remain in the rotation, with Brad Penny moved to the utility player role.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
by DGU on Apr 21, 2010 5:06 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
In addition to moving to Pujols to the bench, because their pinch hitters have struggled
by all4tookie on Apr 21, 2010 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
and Kyle Lohse permanently to LF
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
by danimal15 on Apr 21, 2010 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well a big problem for the Cards has been the pitching of their position players
after their pitchers run out of innings. This way they’ll have someone who can go 6 or 7 innings after running out of pitchers.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
it's a good way to shore up the position player pitching
biggest weakness for the cards
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
More like moving Holliday (our second best hitter) to the bench.
You can read it in any tone you like.
by spants on Apr 21, 2010 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is the single stupidest baseball decision the Cubs have made in the modern era
We really want Tom Gorzelany and Carlos Silva to pitch more innings this year than Carlos Zambrano? That’s going to lead to success?
Do we really want to strip Z of two great sources of value as a player – his durability and his batting?
by Wreckard on Apr 21, 2010 5:08 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
i would have said making Hector Villaneuva team dietician was the worst decision
in the modern era.
by BeltwayCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Wait...are you serious?
Hahahaha, that’s amazing.
by DogDaysofSummer on Apr 21, 2010 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought
Paul Reuschel was the team’s dietician.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
Paul and Rick
As co team dieticians, the Reuschel brothers would have kept the clubhouse supplied with plenty of Yum-Yum donuts.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
Who says they are?
He could still ended up pitching more innings than either of those two and he could bat in the 7th, 8th or 9th inning and prevent us from using a pinch hitter. In home games you could put him into bat in the 6th inning and he might bat twice.
by IllinoisCubs on Apr 21, 2010 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions
What? ...how?
Even an abused reliever ends up pitching under 100 innings a season.
And using him as a pinch hitter is quite a different – and less valuable – proposition than a starting pitcher batting for himself.
by Wreckard on Apr 21, 2010 5:45 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
the answer lies in this question
how long does Zambrano remain in the bullpen?
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
So what happens if/and or when Silva, or Gorz starts to go way down and Z is pitching really good in the pen then do they switch again? Lets score runs first. We have alot of quality starts.
"Women...you can't live without them, and they can't pee standing up." Rube Baker
I wonder if this is what mainlining Koolaid is like?
{joke}
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions
This is awesome.
My husband is a mason and will get a kick out of this.
You can read it in any tone you like.
I see this is a 8th inning thing, well Cubs in order for this to be successful to get to Marmol you have to score runs otherwise it dont matter if Z is in there or a taxi cab driver
"Women...you can't live without them, and they can't pee standing up." Rube Baker
Worth a try
This isn’t necessarily a knock on Zambrano and I don’t think it is forever. They probably didn’t want Gorzelanny in the bullpen when they have LHPs in the pen. I wonder if they intend to let him pitch more than 1 inning. If so, they won’t be able to use him as often.
This is worth trying. They might win a few more close games.
Ya but this James Russell he is just like David Patton just in there cuz he has to have a spot. Idk if Russell doesnt have options left or something, but move Gorz to the pen
"Women...you can't live without them, and they can't pee standing up." Rube Baker
russell pitched like a beast in ST
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Apr 21, 2010 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Milton Bradley also hit like beast last yr in ST also
"Women...you can't live without them, and they can't pee standing up." Rube Baker
Shocked
When I read the speculation on this site a couple days ago, I didn’t believe it would ever happen. Now that it has, I wonder if it’s Lou being prudent and evaluating the situation well or if it’s a panic move.
The good news for me is....
that I’m no longer standing in front of my house with a pitch-fork and a torch.
The bad news is that I still think this is a bad idea, if more calmly so. :)
At any rate, to quote Tobias, “Let the great experiment begin!”
Man, is it 7pm yet? Can we just play a baseball game and get on with some ON-field drama?
"Look, what do you want me to do?"
Ha not today this soap opera is to good
"Women...you can't live without them, and they can't pee standing up." Rube Baker
If there is a rain delay and if/when this discussion continues, the internet with sag under the weight...
"Look, what do you want me to do?"
sadly, the on-field goings-on have been anything but dramatic recently.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 21, 2010 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Hi
I just moved my 18 million dollar starter to the bullpen ben. Am I living the high life?
"How's your mother?"
"She's on her way out."
"We all are. Act accordingly."
by louslovechild on Apr 21, 2010 5:26 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
good and rec'd
You sir are living the high life for living dangerously…even though you just put a gatorade’s cooler in danger.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
This is good
Silva won’t pitch as well as he has for the rest of the season so we can ride him while he is “hot”. It serves as a wake up call to Zambrano, and to the rest of the team that no matter how much you make, you aren’t above getting demoted.
stick to seattle
This is the dumbest move the Cubs have made since I’ve been following the team. Why take 100 innings away from one of your best pitchers? Fire Piniella and Hendry IMMEDIATELY.
One of our best?
He hasn’t been one of our best this season, that is the point of the move,maybe this will put a little fire into him.
by seattlecubsfan on Apr 21, 2010 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions
You realize that isn't how things work, right?
This whole idiotic cliched notion about “putting fire” into a player is just crap. Save that shit for Kaplan’s blog.
by Hank493 on Apr 21, 2010 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Motivation
can improve a players performance greatly. Nothing gets somebody more motivated than humiliation (except maybe money).
by seattlecubsfan on Apr 21, 2010 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Or just...
Frustrates and demoralizes them.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Apr 21, 2010 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions
+100000
rec’d
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Apr 21, 2010 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions
No strikes
As long as his 120 pitches are only netting 6 innings, I don’t think it’s too bad of a move. He should be back in the rotation soon enough. We can’t seem to get through a season without a DL stint. Wood did great moving to the pen.
Problem not solved
because once Gorzy and Silva start to struggle they’ll be back at square one.
''I'm really not a Facebook or Twitter guy. I'm a prime rib and baked potato guy.'' - Sweet Lou
True
But when they do start to struggle then send them to relief, where they will pitch less innings, and probably be better than the relievers we have now. Hopefully by then Z will improve.
by seattlecubsfan on Apr 21, 2010 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Not as ideal
as having true good relief but you have to play the cards you got.
by seattlecubsfan on Apr 21, 2010 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Aww the look on Kaplans face right now saying he supports this move I just wanna punch him right in his wrist
"Women...you can't live without them, and they can't pee standing up." Rube Baker
So how many of the people whining about this move
are the same ones who post things like “Z isn’t an ace” and “Z is immature” and “Z sucks”?
I don’t know what to make of it. It certainly is a bold move. And I can see the logic behind it.
Time will tell, I guess.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Apr 21, 2010 5:35 PM CDT reply actions
I don't know if I'm entirely on board with the move, Al,
but it is out-of-the-box thinking to repair what has been a problem. I’m willing to give it a shot.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Apr 21, 2010 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I would like it more if I thought that Lou could be unconventional
Sadly, Lou will be a sheepie and put Z in just for the 8th instead of creating a new type of bullpen with Z and Marshall and eventually Cashner. Lou could take a really bold step towards getting away from the defined 7th/8th/9th roles, but in probably his last year as manager I doubt he’ll take the risk.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Apr 21, 2010 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe BECAUSE it's his last year he could do it.
What are they going to do, fire him?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I was one of them
but I was also one of his staunch supporters for many years as well. This move to me, wreaks of desperation and mismanagement. Who knows what this may do to his pysche?
''I'm really not a Facebook or Twitter guy. I'm a prime rib and baked potato guy.'' - Sweet Lou
That's a false dichotomy
“Not an ace” is a long ways from “let’s start Carlos fucking Silva” instead.
That’s not profanity by the way, I am pretty sure that’s his given middle name.
by Wreckard on Apr 21, 2010 5:51 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe "Carlos F. Silva"
would be more apropos.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Apr 21, 2010 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions
18 million in the bullpen after a 6 inning 9k performance
maybe im blind but i dont
4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
Forget about the 18 million
Citing his salary is irrelevant.
Like I said, I’im not sure how this will pan out, and I’m not sure I like it, but I don’t see the harm in trying.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Apr 21, 2010 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I was one of the.....
people “whining” that Z is not an Ace.
I do believe that he is more valuable to the team pitching 200+ innings over the 70 he will likely pitch as a set up man.
BTW, why is it when one complains about or criticizes a Cub they are “whining”? You seem to have a problem with that.
by timeforachange2009 on Apr 21, 2010 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, brilliant!
You know, our bench has really sucked lately too. Let’s move Aramis to the bench and start Tracy at 3rd to bolster it. Innovation!!
by Wreckard on Apr 21, 2010 5:48 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
It's a great comparison.
In both cases you’re robbing Peter to pay Paul – replacing a better starter with a worse one to make an improvement in a role that has less of an impact on the team.
Set up men
Z and Marshall could take the 7th and 8th. I like it for now. Z would be a great starter if he was throwing more strikes.
Wow.
M-f’ing wow. Wow. I mean, wow. I’m reading it and I still can’t believe it. Wow. So Silva>Zambrano, huh? Goes to show how little I know about baseball and human interactions.
Lou
This is not the answer to “Look, what do you want me to do?”
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
This is a bit odd...
…and something I don’t quite understand, but I’m sure it won’t be the last time that happens.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
IDC what the Cubs do, Im still keeping Z in my rotation on MLB The Show 10
"Women...you can't live without them, and they can't pee standing up." Rube Baker
Is this going to help us drive in runs?
Z’s pitching hasn’t been the reason we have scored 6 runs in 4 games. Double digits left on base in most of them.
Al
After reading your comments in this thread I have to say I think your a nice guy who runs a popular site but you don’t know a damn thing about baseball.
by CalCalender on Apr 21, 2010 5:51 PM CDT reply actions 6 recs
This isn't even worth answering, but I will anyway so as to not let this just sit here.
You’re 100% wrong.
This move may not work. Or it may be brilliant. In any case, I give credit to a baseball manager who is willing to try something unconventional to shake up his team.
Finally, you might want to see how this actually shakes out in real games before you condemn it based on spreadsheet analysis. Last I saw, no spreadsheet ever won a baseball game.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Seriously Al
Shawn said it best- if we signed Todd Hunley to be our catcher right now and benched Soto would you really need to take the “wait and see” approach to call it a bad idea?
Nobody, not one serious analyst is calling this a good move. And this isnt stat thing like you try and make it to be. Common sense will tell you that you dont want a good starter as your 8th inning setup man.
by CalCalender on Apr 21, 2010 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Seriously...
… this isn’t even remotely comparable to a Hundley/Soto move.
This team needed a shakeup, a wakeup call. Mission accomplished. I know enough about baseball teams to know that sometimes, unorthodox things done by a manager are the best things.
Z won’t be in the bullpen forever. I know that. You know that. For now, it might shore up the pen, as long as the other starters pull their weight. If they don’t, you know he’ll be back in the rotation.
I like this move. Let’s see how it plays out before we uniformly slam it. Gosh, what a concept.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If the team needs
a shakeup or a wakeup then call up Starlin Castro or bench Aramis-at least he deserves it. But this is a panic move for the sake of a panic move 2 weeks into the season. This isn’t management or leadership its bullshit
the only and i mean ONLY good this out of this is that it should once and for all shut up the knuckle draggers who call Z selfish.
Maybe it's a wakeup call for Z, too.
Again… why not see how it works before you slam it? Maybe it’ll work. Calling it “bullshit” doesn’t really say anything, other than you using gratuitous profanity.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
A wake up for what exactly?
Zambrano is what he is- a guy who will pitch 180-200 innings with an ERA around 3.50.
This isn’t going to make him turn into Roy Halladay Al.
bench aramis also
I’d rather see a big move now than halfway through the season when there is no chance of righting the ship.
by seattlecubsfan on Apr 21, 2010 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I want to see Castro in Chicago as much as anyone.
But don’t rush him. At least let him play a whole season in the minors. The Smokies have the best record in AA. They need Castro too.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
He'll learn how to win with them.
Everyone on that team will learn to win. Give the kids (I call them kids but they are older than me :P) a taste for winning and they’ll become bloody thirsty for more winning.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Outside of Castro
there are maybe 1 or 2 other guys in that lineup that project to be big league players. So they won’t grow up together or get a taste of blood whatever that is.
If Castro is ready then he is ready, call him up.
Pie won at every level, too.
Bring up Castro, and then trade him if he doesn’t hit in 100-odd plate appearances!
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
trade Z for Livan!
livan is off to a better start than Silva
there’s an apt comparison
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 21, 2010 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Let’s see how it plays out before we uniformly slam it. Gosh, what a concept.
So why didn’t you adopt this same philosophical approach to the Looper idea? You sure seemed to slam that one in a hurry. It’s the inconsistencies that are maddening, not the positions taken.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
We have Z here already. This is an interior move which is easier to undo
than an exterior move which costs money, blocks players in the organization and is much much much harder to undo than this one.
by cubsonWGN4ever on Apr 22, 2010 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions
meaning i understand why looper to the cubs was slammed
whereas the zambrano to the pen move is a “wait and see” situation.
by cubsonWGN4ever on Apr 22, 2010 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Re
You might want to view the commentary on BBTN. Unless, of course, you think none of those guys know jack about playing Major League baseball.
Visit The Digital Gazette
I think it's wrong to say you know nothing about baseball
I won’t give you the long story about how I learned this, but…
Sometimes the more you argue the same point over and over, the less people listen to you. I COMPLETELY disagree with you on this move, but that’s not my point here. I’m just suggesting that after the twelfth time you write the same thing in a thread, maybe it’s best to let a few hundred comments go by without reply. Let people get past their anger by saying their piece. It’s when you have to set EVERY poster straight that you start getting this pushback. FWIW.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
i would like to defer all further comments to my signature
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
Right
It has a chance of working out. It also has a greater chance of not working out. Why would you intentionally go against the odds?
by vivaelpujols on Apr 22, 2010 1:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Al, I love BCB and you do a good job
but I agree. The fact that you can think that this was a good baseball move is ridiculous. Carlos Zambrano, 19 million a year, opening day starter. This is a panic move. Moving Carlos to left field to get the bats going would have made more sense than this. Regardless of his recent struggles in the first few weeks of this year and last season, Carlos Zambrano is flat out a better starter than Tom Gorzelanny and Carlos Silva.
I’m going to point a finger here and say that you too, just like Lou, have gone into panic mode a couple of miles into a Marathon.
"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar-tissue." -George F. Will
by In Piniella We Trustiella on Apr 21, 2010 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
This team needed a wakeup call.
Mission accomplished.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Wakeup call? I think the other 8 guys batting everyday trying to score runs is more important than the 8th inning
"Women...you can't live without them, and they can't pee standing up." Rube Baker
Look what it did to BCB
What do you think it is doing for the team? Just a little shakeup for a team that seems to be sleep walking through games.
by seattlecubsfan on Apr 21, 2010 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions
The wake up call
is for the hitters not “Z”. If team would hit a damn with runners on, this thread would not be here.
Exactly
If you can bench an “ace” starter who is pitching mediocre at best , then you can bench anyone on the team.
by seattlecubsfan on Apr 21, 2010 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I am not holding my breath for A-Ram to be benched
and he is far more of a factor in the Cubs problems than Z.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 21, 2010 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
exactly Jessica
and guess what folks? Benching Aramis would also be a very dumb thing to do. I know a 5-9 start sucks buts its been 14 games people.
by CalCalender on Apr 21, 2010 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
True
plus it would “send a message” to somebody…..
Someone should get them some stationary if this is the only way they can communicate with their players
If this is how they deliver messages I’m glad I never send in any fan mail.
Moving Carlos to left field to get the bats going would have made more sense than this
actually……probably
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
as long as he could field the position as well as lohse
"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out." Bill Hicks
i was impressed by the catch down the line, even if he looked a little stiff
"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out." Bill Hicks
Stop picking on Al.
We all know Al knows a lot about baseball and has seen plenty of Cubs games to know a thing or two about the team. I think people attack Al because he is the guy in charge. It’s a blog folks. Nothing being said here is worth nothing more than a little entertainment.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Thanks.
Everyone here knows a lot about baseball — all of us in different ways. All I ask from people sharing here is that we do it without personal attacks and with a minimum of profanity.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
its not picking on anybody
to point out that what they are saying is foolish.
by CalCalender on Apr 21, 2010 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Who is really the fool?
Nobody knows how this will work out. This is a baseball team that has been winning over the past three years.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
once last time
Carlos Zambrano will pitch less innings than Carlos Silva. This isn’t smart.
This wont make the Cubs offense score runs which is the real problem.
I’m sure Big Z will be a fine setup man but that is a colossal waste of talent. You win the World Series by maximizing your talent.
I wish a could throw a virtual chair...
and start a virtual bar fight on BCB.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
cuz?... its a bad move or cuz its raining in NY right now
"Women...you can't live without them, and they can't pee standing up." Rube Baker
cuz this place is straight silly.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Rob Neyers take...
over at ESPN seems about right to my mind. (Notwithstanding my lambasting this decision above)
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/3298/big-zs-big-arm-dispatched-to-bullpen
Particularly:
I’ll bet this is less about Zambrano’s performance than about his attitude (according to Piniella). Call it reality therapy or a mental karate chop or whatever you like, but this strikes me as a momentary expression of annoyance more than anything else. Jack’s right: Silva’s not going to keep pitching brilliantly, and he’s highly unlikely to pitch as well as Zambrano.
But there’s room for both of them in the rotation. At the moment, Big Z’s ERA is 7.45; his rotation mates go 0.69 (Silva), 1.93 (Gorzelanny), Randy Wells (2.45) and Ryan Dempster (3.15). It’s hard to sit a guy with a 0.69 ERA, or even a guy with a 1.93 ERA. Those numbers will change, though, and probably quite soon. When they get where they’re supposed to, Zambrano will take his rightful place in the rotation. You just have to wonder if his heart will come along for the ride.
From a managerial perspective I think this makes sense in a way. A roster should be a meritocracy. Right now, by numbers alone Zambrano is the weakest of the SPs.
Since this change doesn’t put anything in stone, it makes sense to me to move Zambrano until the Silva/Gorz duo regresses to mean, then put Z back. Will it have a negative effect on Z’s morale? Maybe. But so would demoting a guy who’s currently pitching his ass off right now, while sending a message to everyone else that your production won’t impact your playing time.
Neyer has it exactly right.
I agree completely.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
One thing...
that I think is fascinating is that Piniella announced the decision immediately prior to a Silva start. Sure does risk a major blowback if Silva struggles tonight. Or is a sign of confidence in Silva.
On the other hand, if this was the decision regardless, I’m not sure he would’ve been better off with the risk of waiting until after Silva had a poor outing to announce….(Though in truth I’d prefer that Piniella and all the Cubs don’t give a crap about the media/public outcry. You don’t lead by listening to what the group tells you to do.)
Either way, the many facets of this decision are pretty interesting from a PR, baseball, and organizational dynamics standpoint.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Apr 21, 2010 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions
It is simply ridiculous to judge who are the 5 best pitchers based on the 14 games that have been played.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Apr 21, 2010 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions
That should be fun we could have 3 Carlos pitchers pitch in one game. All 3 are very consistent
"Women...you can't live without them, and they can't pee standing up." Rube Baker
Somewhere BLou is kicking himself that he got banned
right before this happened!
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
How and when did he get banned?
And can’t he just create a new username with a new e-mail? He is still here somewhere.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
You'll know it when he returns.
It’ll be someone with a username you’ve never seen before who posts exactly the same catchphrases ad infinitum on multiple threads until his cover is blown.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
4 more til 1000
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
3 actually
no 2
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Apr 21, 2010 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions
1000! and 2
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
This isn't a stupid move.
The College Of Coaches…. Now that was stupid.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Apr 21, 2010 6:39 PM CDT reply actions
I am in favor with the move
In fact, after Z’s third start, I hoped Lou would do this. Reasons as follows:
1. Look at the numbers. His WHIP is 1.86. LHB hit .425 against him. RHP .214. He’s only gone 1,5,6,and 7 innings this year putting a ton of pressure on the pen. And that was done throwing 120 in 2 of the starts. That can’t continue unless you want TJ surgery mid season.
2. There is currently no good alternative. Do we expect Grabow to find religion? Tell me a RH setup that we can use to stop the bleeding?
3. Psychologically Z needed a wake up call. He still didn’t get that he was pitching terribly. He didn’t earn the right to stay in the starting rotation. And it sends a strong message to everyone that no one is guaranteed their spot.
4. The move is reversible if it’s a failure.
5. I’d guess that Z would be available for both 2 innings per relief rather than one.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
The move is reversible if it’s a failure.
Problem with this is that by the time we know it’s a failure, it’s too late for reversing it to do any good. This is a hail-mary pass by an organization which finds it necessary because they’ve identified their bullpen as a colossal failure. This either miraculously works out great, or it ruins any chance of making the playoffs, no matter how remote. I don’t like those odds.
Further, where is this 8th inning help supposed to come from? Who’s thinking about trading quality 8th inning pitchers in May? I think this is going to take longer than the Cubs or Z think.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
What is your solution
to the 8th inning problem?
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Well, obviously it isn't this.
I would move Silva to the pen, and then identify who is pitching most effectively and efficiently—after more of the season has gone by—and give them this set role. Then later you can determine whether you want to make a trade for either an upgrade or an offload. It just looks bush league and desperate to do something this wacky 2-1/2 weeks into the season. Lou’s famous blow-up in 2007 happened on June 2 after all, not April 21.
And, as ATP points out, you need a lead in the 8th inning before you need to start worrying about protecting it.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
So for now
it appears you want to make Silva the 8th inning guy? And you’d only worry about it if we had an 6th inning lead or tie?
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Not necessarily Silva, though I'd give him a try.
There may be someone else who’s up to it, but you won’t know until you give the better performing pitchers more chances. Zambrano’s not a lock to hold every lead, either. I just think it’s too early to make highly unorthodox (to put it mildly) moves like this. Especially when the statistics practically scream for you not to do it.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
You still haven't answered the question
What specific steps would you take right now to address the bullpen problem? Who and when?
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Put me down as another "Eh. Why not?"
I don’t understand why people are even bringing the offense into this conversation. There have been two big problems with this team so far, bullpen and offense. This is a move to fix the bullpen.
I didn’t really want to see Gorz or Silva in the bullpen because frankly I don’t trust either of them to get a batter out when the game is on the line. Their success as starters has been their ability to minimize damage and use the defense. And that can pan out to 3 or 4 runs a game. But it keeps the team in the game. I believe that Z could come into a game at any point and completely dominate a batter at a given time.
Though Gregg was not the right choice, I really liked the idea of having a closer other than Marmol. Why do you need to have your best reliever as your closer? Just before Caridad gave up the GS to Stubbs I remember thinking how much I wished Marmol WASN’T our closer because I trust him to come in and get a strikeout when we need it. If Z is going to close, this puts Marmol back in this role. If Marmol stays as closer, I am willing to give Z the benefit of the doubt that he could reach back (knowing he only needs to pitch 1 inning) and shut someone down.
I guess my point is I think that Lou is thinking the same thing as me. He doesn’t like the idea of Gorzilva coming out of the pen in any meaningful situation. Z is probably better suited to do that. So move Z to the pen and see if it helps.
This also trickles down the bullpen
This could allow the young guys in the pen some time to relax. Caridad especially was thrown into being our primary RH set up guy. I would like to see him be able to ease into the pressure situation (Marmol 2007, Guzman 2009). I thought Caridad got squeezed in Cincy, but refused to adjust. Then when he had no choice, he left a fat pitch over the plate.
I’m not nearly as concerned with the offense because I believe Ramirez will not continue to be this bad.
I don't have the time to read all the comments right now
but I can imagine there are some I told you sos in here. I like my crow with a cold fresh beer.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
Great move.
I think this is a great move. I have been screaming for bullpen help. Zambrano has the perfect mentality for the shutdown reliever. He gets really into the game and can be dominant at times. No other pitcher on this rotation would be able to handle that kind of role.
You know who else has a great mentality for the bullpen?
Ted Lilly. Let’s move him to the pen when he comes back!
by Outshined_One on Apr 21, 2010 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions
As of right now I'm not a fan of this move.
Believe me, I’m as tired of Z’s attitude and inconsistancy as many of you are but you have to think in retrospect. Z had a bad year last year and has been up and down his first three starts. One, I think we should give him at least a few more starts to figure things out. Remember Verlander’s start last season (9.00 ERA after his first 4 starts). Nobody remembers that when he leads the AL in k’s and IP’s and is third in Cy Young voting. It’s only April. Two, you have to think of the possibility of the Cubs becoming sellers midseason. Remember that the Cubs entertained the idea of trading Z to the Yankees this past winter. What happens to his trade value now if they do decide to sell? What can we can get for a gatorage manchine-breaking middle reliever? This move can’t help it and is similar to past moves where the Cubs mismanage and kill the potential return on a player.
I realize it’s very early to be saying the Cubs coud be cleaning house this season and I may be wrong in assuming Z could be part of those plans. Having said all this, something had to change within this team’s makeup. This start is way too similar to last year and we needed to do something to fix the pen. If this does the trick and keeps us in the playoff chase then I’m all for it.
The 1st commandment of the Chicago Cubs Bullpen: "Though shall not throw strikes."
thought I would make it 1068
I really hope some of this thinking came from Z himself. As long as the rotation is doing well early on (as most typically do) maybe its worth a try. Once Lilly is back and some of these pen guys get their stuff together Z comes back to the rotation. Silva will no longer be a mystery and others will become more exposed and fresh in the hitters minds. Z can make a difference in several games versus once in a turn. I was very against this when I read it at work today. But now..What the heck. LWDYWMTD.
There goes one over the fence...a Tru-Link fence.
ps
I am not happy that it has come to this..
There goes one over the fence...a Tru-Link fence.
by truelinkfence on Apr 21, 2010 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Apr 21, 2010 9:52 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
has anyone noticed what pitch he has been struggling with
or has he? It is possible his off speed or curve are not getting over on a consistant bases, so a move to the pen allows him to just throw fastballs for an inning, like Wood did.
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
the one question that i have not seen answered by anyone (and yes, i have read/skimmed all comments) is who gets sent down to the pen when lilly comes back.
it’s not going to be dempster. it’s probably not going to be gorz. so out of wells, silva, or zambrano, who deserves to remain a starter? my answer is not zambrano. wells has been decent and silva has been fantastic so far.
i don’t see this as much of a wakeup call, although it could be. i saw this as more of a numbers thing. until wells or silva or gorz show that they can’t do the job, sit zambrano.
This just goes to show there's no pleasing some people.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 21, 2010 10:09 PM CDT reply actions
Al....
I respect your baseball acumen but on this you are way off….
First, you can’t tell me that Big Z is more valuable pitching 70 innings than his average 200+. That makes no sense at all. Big Z’s value. IMHO, is that he has been a work horse. You are robbing the rotation of this and IMHO putting more pressure on the pen.
When this does not work out, which IMHO will be soon, what are you going to do with Z? If he stays in the pen for a month I don’t believe you will be able to just throw him back into the rotation. You will have to stretch him out.
Finally, this is the swan song for both Lou and Hendry. IMHO, this is Lou giving JH the finger. “You gave me this mess. Look what I had to do”. This move reeks of desperation and will be viewed as a total failure once we review the 2010 season. IMHO, the club would have been better off moving Silva to the pen and calling up a kid to fill a slot.
Personally I wish the team would have explored trading him this past off season. We cold have addressed a number of issues and rid ourselves of this bad contract.
by timeforachange2009 on Apr 21, 2010 10:11 PM CDT reply actions
I love this move
On so many levels. Even if it fails.
At the very least perhaps Soriano got the message tonight.
Cubs 1-0 since change.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Apr 21, 2010 10:28 PM CDT reply actions
Yeah it did!
Because Silva sees the team has confidence in him as a starter, so he decided to pitch a good game! Otherwise, he would have felt bad about himself and thrown a stinker.
Also, the offense saw that management is willing to “shake things up,” so they decided to get more hits (especially w/ RISP). It didn’t have anything to do with the fact that they were facing Ollie Perez or that it’s pretty impossible for a team to consistently strand baserunners like they did on Monday night.
/sarcasm
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
by mykalmorgan on Apr 21, 2010 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Pessimists say the cup is half-empty, while optimists say it's half-full. Well, isn't it both? Realist Larry, 2009
I cannot apply my "half-full / half-empty" philosophy to this move.
It is all-puke.
Pessimists say the cup is half-empty, while optimists say it's half-full. Well, isn't it both? Realist Larry, 2009
by Realist Larry on Apr 21, 2010 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions
larry... you're killing me with this pic!
I'm a truth teller, I'm a risk taker, I'm like Johnny Cash - I walk the line...
by Jimmyeatworld on Apr 21, 2010 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Forget just work, this is NSFA.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 21, 2010 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep.
Not Safe For Anywhere.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 12:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Get worried now!
I tired to stay optimistic and tell myself it’s still early, but after this news, I have seriously lost all faith in Lou. Tom Ricketts, Please fire Jim and Lou and lets start fresh. It’s only April and I feel like the team is already in shambles. Anyone that ever thought that bullpen was good enough to contend coming out of spring training was smoking crack. Oh, I know the answer, lets move Z to the bullpen. Right. What the hell is going on?!
After Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF.
by Mars10 on Apr 21, 2010 11:11 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
This move is insane...
It is a move of desperation that makes no sense. Today was the beginning of the end for El Toro as a Cub.
I'm a truth teller, I'm a risk taker, I'm like Johnny Cash - I walk the line...
Having had time to think it over
It is even dumber than I first thought. an 18 million dollar set up man? Pulling a good pitcher because he had one awful start that killed his ERA over a pitcher who is not even in the same league as a starter ( Gorzo) is stupid beyond belief.
What exactly to the Cubs hope to accomplish?. If it was only to take the least valuable starter and push him into the pen the answer is clearly Gorzo. You think there is another team out there that would yank their Opening Day starter for the last 5 years because of a couple of shaky starts? Oh but of course the problem is Gorzo is a LEFTY and we can’t have another one of those in the pen.Lou does not want them pitching to righties. We are so f(%%(* ing desperate for someone to pitch in the 8th we are going to experiment with Z.? It does NOTHING to help our anemic hitting and as for sending a message to the team, the message is I am a clueless manager that does not care how this effects the team.
I will never again complain about anything Dusty did. He could have started Neffi for 162 games and would not have been as dumb. He could had Prior and Wood through 150 pitches per outing and it would not be as dumb
Please do not tell me to give it a chance. The BEST case scenario is that Z is a good guy to pitch the 8th. Gee thanks for that. Russell , Berg , Marshall etc were SO bad we have to pull Z out of the rotation instead of Gorzo.
I would seriously rather have traded Castro for Heath Bell because this move doesn’t just effect Z, it shows the Cubs have no plan and no clue.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 21, 2010 11:35 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
You sum up my thoughts perfectly
The fact that Hendry is letting this go is one thing as it is. This is just a complete mess. And we wonder why we have not won a title since 1908. No one has a clue how to win.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Can't get over the idea that anyone thinks
a pure PANIC move half way through April is a good move.
A fan on a board panicking? They get talked down and called a ledge jumper.
The actual TEAM apparently freaking out and going to “what the hell” mode? “oh well, give a shot!”
Seriously, I do NOT understand this place at all.
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
by Allie on Apr 21, 2010 11:51 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
It's best not to try.
I gave it some more thought and something else occurred to me:
If Zambrano is pitching so poorly that he deserves a demotion from the starting rotation, how exactly does this make him the miracle salve that cures our bullpen woes?
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
this is what i posted on VEB after hearing this news
still, you’re bailing on a guy who has been worth 4+ wins, four out of six seasons of his career after 4 rough starts where his xFIP is 3.37, his HR/FB 21.1% and his BABIP is .435! and he’s striking out 12 batters an inning!
this is absolutely absurd. is piniella banking on silva throwing like he knows what a baseball is all season? this is one of the dumbest things i’ve ever seen a manager do.
z was still worth 2.8 wins last year. he’ll be lucky to be worth a third of that in the setup role. that’s another point. setup man? you’re gonna have zambrano setting up marmol?
i really don’t believe it. i genuinely thought it was a joke when i first saw it
good luck, cub fans
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
no kidding
if it makes your opponents happy, ur doin it rong!
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
check that
3.6 wins last year. i wasw looking at ’08
el oh el
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
Abe Vigoda or Woody Harrelson?
"Hey Hey, Holy Mackerel, No Doubt About It!"
by scottsdalecubs on Apr 22, 2010 1:31 AM CDT up reply actions
I think the reaction from some of you is hilarous
Some of the same ones who were all over Lou because he left Gregg in “too long” as closer last year now are having a cow because he’s addressing a problem in the first few weeks of the season, before it really could get out of control.
Again, I’m not sure if I like this, but given the current situation, I’m not going to reject it out of hand.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Apr 22, 2010 2:37 AM CDT reply actions
Maybe because people know dumb moves when they see them
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
you're keeping score of everyone else
or are you just making generalizations that fit your preconceived notions?
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 23, 2010 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions
After rereading this thread, I feel like something strange is happening to me
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Well I think it's a good look for you.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Apr 22, 2010 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
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