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Panic move: Cubs send Zambrano to bullpen

With the Cubs bullpen off to a predictably terrible start -- if you think it wasn't predictable, click here -- I have been fretting about general manager Jim Hendry handing out several Brandon Lyon-esque contracts next offseason, or, worse yet, having him really panic and pull the trigger on a worthy successor to the Jon Garland-for-Matt Karchner / Kyle Lohse-for-Rick Aguilera / Jose Ceda-for-Kevin Gregg deals that have literally shaved years off my life -- that's right, each of those transactions came to my apartment in the form of a razor, and with patented lift-and-cut technology smoothly removed time from my existence in a single stroke. Sure, it sounds exceptionally efficient, but the whole process is, in reality, quite painful.

Anyway, the upshot is, I've been dreading the story coming off the wire of an Andrew Cashner-for-Tim Byrdak deal, or perhaps a Jay Jackson-for-Takashi Saito swap. And then I saw this headline on ESPN.com:

Cubs moving Zambrano to bullpen

Now, I probably would've gone with something a little flashier, like Panic Move: Cubs send Zambrano to bullpen, but I do admittedly have a flair for the dramatic.

Still, that's what this is: a $53.75 million panic move.

Continuing from Bruce Levine's ESPNChicago.com report:

The Chicago Cubs confirmed reports that manager Lou Piniella is moving struggling starter Carlos Zambrano to the bullpen, in a move that may not be temporary.

"I told him we really needed him in the bullpen," Piniella told reporters.

Now granted, with Ted Lilly returning, someone had to move to the bullpen, and Zambrano could really help there, as he clearly has the greatest chance of becoming an ace reliever. Why? BECAUSE HE'S THE BEST GODDAMN PITCHER of the guys they supposedly considered: Carlos Silva, Tom Gorzelanny, and him. Which is why you want him throwing 200 innings, instead of 70.

I know the choice couldn't have been easy; unlike the bullpen, the rotation has actually been very good. Take a gander at these numbers (through 4/20):

Starter ERA FIP xFIP BABiP K/9 BB/9 HR/9
A 0.69 2.01 3.38 .218 5.54 0.00 0.00
B 1.93 2.48 3.79 .266 6.75 2.89 0.00
C 2.45 2.41 3.68 .362 6.38 2.45 0.00
D 3.15 2.81 3.32 .274 9.90 3.60 0.45
E 7.45 4.72 3.37 .435 12.10 4.66 1.86

Without a doubt, Pitcher E has ostensibly been the worst. But more tellingly, he's also been the unluckiest; while his earned run average and fielding-independent pitching stick out like Matt Stairs' belly, his expected fielding-independent pitching -- using a formula that removes the home run component, which can be profoundly influenced by luck in a pitcher's home run per fly ball rate (HR/FB) in a given season -- is solidly near the front of the pack.

Pitcher E, not surprisingly, is Zambrano. Not that any of this should matter, though, because the whole stupid chart serves as an exemplar for why you don't make decisions like these based on three or four starts.

Does anyone think that Pitcher A (Silva) is not going to walk a guy all season? Or allow a home run? Or that he can maintain a .218 BABiP? None of those things are even remotely sustainable; while Silva is an excellent control pitcher, his career walk rate is 1.69 BB/9, and more importantly, he has allowed 1.12 HR/9 and a .312 BABiP. Furthermore, how much longer can we expect Starters B (Gorzelanny) and C (Randy Wells) to not allow a home run? Four innings? Five?

Moving Zambrano to the bullpen shows the same type of horribly-myopic thinking as those prospects-for-middling-reliever deals I so dread. Given the rotation's respective bodies of work the last few seasons, I don't see how Zambrano can be any worse than the #3 starter on this team, behind Ryan Dempster (Starter D) and Lilly, provided the latter is actually healthy. If I were to prioritize which of the five current starters I'd move to the 'pen, I'd go Silva, Gorzelanny, Wells, Zambrano, Dempster.

And really, just how much is Zambrano "struggling"? He undeniably had a disastrous Opening Day, and a quick glance reveals that his traditional stats through four starts -- which I think we can all agree is a totally-representative sample size, and should by all means be taken as the true measure of his ability while his 238 other career starts are completely ignored -- are pretty bad: 1-2, 7.45 ERA. But over his last three games, he's actually 1-1, 4.00, going at least five innings in each while allowing three earned runs or fewer.

More importantly, though, his K-rate has been superb, with 26 in 19.1 innings. As always, he's walking too many guys, but his BB rate isn't that out of line with his career mark (4.1). So Zambrano's struggles are basically a function of two things over which he has varying degrees of control: home runs and hits allowed.

Yes, the home run is one of the three true outcomes, but as I mentioned earlier, there is still an element of luck involved in how many a pitcher yields, especially when you're talking about such a small sample size. After being remarkably stingy with the gopher ball for most of his career, including allowing just 10 homers in 169.1 IP last year, Zambrano has already given up four in 2010. But that's four lousy pitches; if two of them had turned into warning-track outs instead of clearing the fence, Zambrano's home run rate would be more or less in line with his career mark. And so this is largely the product of bad luck, which is borne out by his HR/FB ratio: it's at 21.1%, compared to his career mark of 9.1%. 

Zambrano's inflated BAA (.317) is a function of that absurd .435 BABiP, which is 54.3% higher than his career mark of .282. Now I suppose it's possible that he's suddenly become eminently hittable. There are, after all, some disturbing trends in his numbers. Since posting a phenomenal 54.4% ground ball rate in his first full season in '03, Zambrano's GB% has declined every year but one (in 2008, when it rocketed to 47.2% from 46.8%), reaching the low-water mark (44.7%) last season. This year it's at 39.3%, and although it's still plenty low enough to succeed, combined with his increasing line drive rate -- at 26.8% this year, compared to 18.7% for his career -- there are some causes for concern.

But in looking at his strikeouts, it's clear that Zambrano's stuff is still plenty good enough to get major-league hitters out. Given the minuscule sample size -- and the inordinate effect one bad start has on overall numbers just a few games in -- it's infinitely more likely that he's merely the victim of some unfortunate early-season flukiness.

And now the Cubs' entire season has become a victim of it, too. Because reducing Zambrano's workload by 120-or-so innings undoubtedly makes the team worse. I am painfully aware of just how bad the bullpen has been, but how much impact can one player can have on a seven-man relief corps?

Besides, this is a horrifically bad allocation of resources. As best I can tell, no non-40-year-old-Panamian reliever has a deal that averages more than $12.5 million per season, and all the guys in that range are closers. Zambrano, owed the aforementioned $53.75 million over the next three years, basically makes one-and-a-half times that; he's paid the big bucks to log starter innings, and that's what the Cubs should have him doing.

If Zambrano were pitching atrociously, I'd applaud the Cubs for finally grasping the concept a sunk cost and moving him to the 'pen. But he's not. To this point, it's been three decent starts, one horrible one, and whole lot of bad luck. To demote one of your best pitchers based on that, whether it's because you're dissatisfied with him, the bullpen, or a combination thereof, flat-out doesn't make sense. And what happens if Zambrano, who hasn't pitched in relief in eight years, gets injured because his body doesn't handle the sudden transition well? This is just awful on so many levels.

You know, kind of like the Cubs.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

Comment 147 comments  |  23 recs  | 

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If only Z had pitched the 8th inning all season

The Cubs record might be better than 5-9.

As it stands their record is 1-0 since the move.

Are Hendry and Piniella panicing, or just Cub fans?

"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman

by BucknerKongCardenal on Apr 22, 2010 12:26 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

I think we all know the answer to that question.

Couldn’t you smell the internet burning last night?

For the record, (and I know I’m in the minority), I like the move.

I don’t see it as panic. I see it as a team addressing a need (not the ONLY need certainly, but one…) and willing to act to try and make itself better- and win ballgames.

Which is why they are there.

Frankly, the Cubs get flamed when they do nothing and then when they act.

I’d rather see them try something.

"Look, what do you want me to do?"

by Zeke on Apr 22, 2010 5:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

The move makes a lot of sense

They needed to move a starter to the pen with the imminent return of Lilly. It makes no sense to move Silva as well as he has been pitching. Gorzo has thrown well, too, and they have enough LHs in the pen already. Dempster and Wells have been studs, so no need to move them, so that leaves Big Z.

The Panic Room analogy is more of a sign of panic by some Cub fans thasn by the Cubs management.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Apr 22, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

the effects of taking 80-120 innings away from Z aren't felt now

they’ll be felt in three months, or five.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 7:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

well put. great post

The 2010 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp ruled!!!!

by VegasCubFan on Apr 22, 2010 12:36 AM CDT reply actions  

Funny pictures

Lots of words

I glossed over 90% of it. Here’s what it comes down to.

Silva and Gorzelanny are pitching well (Silva got the W tonight while you were typing this monster). He’s 2-0 and could have been 3-0. If you say he is bound to fail at some point, well let’s use Silva until he turns into bad Silva! It’s like the milk with the expiration date printed on it. You keep drinking it until one day you take a whiff and yep, it’s sour again. Once it’s sour, you throw it out. It will only take one start. Same goes with Gorzelanny. Don’t mess with a good thing when it’s unexpected.

The worst that could come of this move is we end up with a bad start from one of them and you bring Zambrano back into the fold. The best that could come of it is Zambrano is a beast out of the pen and Gorzelanny and Silva thrive in the rotation. Sounds good to me.

by IllinoisCubs on Apr 22, 2010 12:50 AM CDT reply actions  

i really dont understand the money's worth, as many innings as possible, argument

getting money’s worth from your players means winning games. the cubs are not winning games right now.

having z pitch 70 innings to silva’s 200 does not mean that you think that silva is a 3x better pitcher than zambrano. it means that you think z will be really good, difference making, in those 70 innings compared to what else you have available. and it means that you think that the step down from z to someone else in the rotation will have less of an impact. it’s a simple concept called comparative advantage.

as an aside- does anyone else remember when Blou was crying about the Cubs wasting a SPRING training start on Silva and saying they should release him without wasting precious spring innings on him? that’s pretty funny in retrospect. pretty sure he’s already won us as many games as milton did last year.

by neifi on Apr 22, 2010 12:56 AM CDT reply actions  

I love your posts, and this might just be my favorite one

The ONLY bright side of this move is that maybe by putting him the pen, he’ll log less innings and maybe be a much more effective pitcher 3 years down the line.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Apr 22, 2010 2:08 AM CDT reply actions  

Lost in all of the heavy breathing and "OMGWTF"ness..

is the fact that this move is probably only temporary. Just like it may be rash to move a pitcher like Z to the pen after a few starts, it’s also a little histirionic to make any sweeping assumptions about him ending his career (or May, for that matter) there. Lou changes his mind about as quickly as bleacher bums refill their beers.

For the record, I would have started Blanco at SS and Theriot at 2B for 2010, and released either Baker or Fontenot.

by DisCUBbobulated on Apr 22, 2010 2:50 AM CDT reply actions   2 recs

good

post but you forgot about how this “sends a message” to the other players. That message as far as I can tell is this- If you generally perform at your average level the front office and manager will freak the fuck out and make you do silly things.

That’ll catch the Cardinals.

by CalCalender on Apr 22, 2010 3:40 AM CDT reply actions  

100% REC'ed

This is just a stupid shortsighted attempt to fix a broken team.

(This story was produced by BCPDnewservice. Our motto: If you don’t like this story then suck it!)

by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Apr 22, 2010 11:40 AM CDT reply actions  

The more I think about this...

…the less I think this is anything more than a message sender by Piniella.

It sends a message to the entire team that even high paid guys can be demoted, it sends a message to Z, and it sends a real strong message to Hendry.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Apr 22, 2010 12:47 PM CDT reply actions  

Exactly correct.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Apr 22, 2010 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Highly-paid guys can be demoted for what?

Being unlucky? If they wanted to send a message, they should’ve stuck Soriano on the bench. And if you’re going to try to claim Soriano’s performance last night was because he was motivated by Zambrano’s demotion, I don’t even know what to say.

by MrSportsKnowItAll.com on Apr 22, 2010 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Your jumping the gun...

…and no I don’t believe Soriano had a good game because of what happened to Z. In fact, I’m not sure there is a way to motivate Soriano beyond what he does on his own.

Let’s let this playout and see what happens. Also, I don’t think Z will be in the pen very long.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Apr 22, 2010 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

WHAT MESSAGE?

The guy has 2 quality starts in 4 outings and is 3rd in k’s. Every stat we have shows he is due to regress in a good way while Silva in just about to implode.

You want to send a message? Sit Aramis down. You dont demote a guy who is actually doing his damn job

by CalCalender on Apr 22, 2010 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or how about this

If Lou has lost the locker room to the point that he thinks he needs to make the team worse to “send a message” then fire him and hire somebody else.

by CalCalender on Apr 22, 2010 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

There's better ways to send a message...

That don’t involve moving one of your best pitchers into a role where he will be used less.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Apr 22, 2010 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

How does this send a message to Hendry?

Can’t see that one.

4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?

by DGU on Apr 22, 2010 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

The message is...

…he is going to do what he sees fit, regardless of how much money the front office has paid these guys.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t make the front office look good when your big money guys are taken out of their primary role.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Apr 23, 2010 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Like this:

"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.

by Goodie1969 on Apr 23, 2010 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

At this point...

…I don’t think anything he could do would make it worse.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Apr 23, 2010 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Money is irrelevant

You’re missing the point and the money that Zambrano is owed is not important. Fact is, the money is spent. You can make Zambrano a beer vendor at Wrigley and he’s still making that big money. So you can drop the money talk.

I think Lou moved Zambrano to the pen for these reasons:
1. The right side of the bullpen is weak, especially with the 2 arms you expected to both be on the DL.
2. Zambrano is throwing too many pitches and not enough innings. You are not helping your team when you throw 123 pitches in 5 innings.
3. The Cubs are too left-handed in the bullpen to move Gorzelanny to the pen.
4. Silva has performed well, but has a little problem with his shoulder. That’s not a good recipe for moving to the bullpen.

Zambrano to the bullpen makes great copy, but the reaction has been overboard. It’s April, not August.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 12:48 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Money is never errelevant...

…in modern day sports and we have far to many examples of that.

Since Lou is near the end, he simply may not give a shit at this point, but I’ll guarantee, Hendry does.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Apr 22, 2010 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Zambrano will be paid

It doesn’t matter whether he starts, relieves, pinch hits or is the bat boy. The remaining value of the contract has nothing to do with the player’s performance.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agree...

…but it still makes the organization look like shit.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Apr 22, 2010 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

not as muchas playing lousy and losing

and that is all that really matters.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Apr 22, 2010 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

With comments like this, I pray for your business partners.

Don’t confuse cost and value. Please. The cost of the contract in absolute terms has nothing to do with the player’s performance. The post mentioned the concept of sunk cost although you act like it was ignored. Soriano is quickly becoming a sunk cost, and that will be exaggerated by more frequent AB’s and innings in LF. But the whole point of this extremely well written post is that Zambrano’s performance does not warrant the – use it less to avoid further value destruction method – that Soriano’s will soon employ. The performance RELATIVE to the cost is what determines the “value”, not the amount written on the check in absolute terms.

by Jeff Ullrich on Apr 22, 2010 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry - just too inflamatory for me

I don’t see the need for lines like this:

Still, that’s what this is: a $53.75 million panic move.

It’s just using a number as a adjective that does not provide benefit

I understand value and cost, and the cost of Zambrano’s contract is statistically meaningless. That’s why it’s not baseball cards. The cost of a player’s contract doesn’t make a home run go farther or a fastball go faster.

Play amateur GM and discuss “resource allocation” all you want. If Zambrano stays in the bullpen all season, will my ticket prices change in September to account for the resource misallocation? Beer prices? No, neither will change. How odd. You would think someone would want to account for that…Sorry, doesn’t work that way.

I don’t think the Cubs are trying to protect Zambrano. I think this is just a short term change to try to win games. Lou thought Zambrano was a the best candidate of the five starters, their pitches, and ability to pitch in relief.

Step back from the ledge. It’s April.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

How exactly am I on the ledge?

I’m just pointing out a colossally stupid move, and the reasons that make it so.

If you like my posts, read more at MrSportsKnowItAll.com and become a fan on Facebook. Actually, even if you don't like my stuff, you should do those things, because it'll make you feel all tingly inside.

by MrSportsKnowItAll on Apr 22, 2010 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is this move Irreversible?

No, it’s not. Zambrano can pitch better and return to the rotation.

I was surprised like everyone else that Zambrano was moved to the bullpen. But Lou and Jim thought Zambrano was what the bullpen needed now and I can understand that.

And this doesn’t make sense to me

Besides, this is a horrifically bad allocation of resources.

First, what resources are you talking about? The money from the team payroll budget? That is spent – no refunds, no exchanges. Or are you referring to the player, who yes, should be contributing more? And everyone hopes he does, especially his manager and GM.

This change was not done in permanent marker. And it’s only April.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Enough with the "it's only April" argument.

Look at the stats. Bad records in April spell doom for playoff chances. The numbers don’t lie.

by Jeff Ullrich on Apr 22, 2010 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

the 2005 astros would like to have a word with you.

"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."

by tom s. on Apr 22, 2010 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Are you really trying to say that one or two exceptions disprove the rule?

That reminds me of all the people who compared Kerry Wood’s inability to throw a strike with the first few years of Sandy Koufax’s career. You can pick and choose your one off’s but It’s a rhetorical trick and I’m not buying it. Would you really want to rely on a once in twenty years statistical outlier for your success? Really?

The more I read of this thread the more I wonder if I’m in some elaborate internet version of the show Punk’d. Where is the logic people?

by Jeff Ullrich on Apr 22, 2010 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

I wasn’t saying that April is special, Risky Business was by saying “And it’s only April”. That comment is making the case that April is special because it’s NOT important.

by Jeff Ullrich on Apr 22, 2010 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

So what should the Cubs have done instead?

It’s easy to be negative

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Give Gorzelanny a chance to be the 8th inning guy?

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Apr 22, 2010 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Send down James Russell...

…and put Gorzelanny in the pen. Send down Samardzija, too, and give Thomas Diamond a shot.

Follow me on Twitter here and catch my twice-weekly Cubs news updates here.

by daver on Apr 23, 2010 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

I thought about this on the way home

This is not a colossally stupid move.

colossally stupid move = Not resigning Greg Maddux after the 1992 season.

Carlos Zambrano is not good enough to be in the same sentence as the word colossal.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

You might be right.

That was probably a bit hyperbolic. This just falls in the merely very stupid category.

If you like my posts, read more at MrSportsKnowItAll.com and become a fan on Facebook. Actually, even if you don't like my stuff, you should do those things, because it'll make you feel all tingly inside.

by MrSportsKnowItAll on Apr 22, 2010 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

I can't wait for the day this move is deemed a success

…and all the angry sports know-it-alls blind to the strategy of it are left saying it was just dumb luck.

by Jerry Mumphrey on Apr 22, 2010 1:10 PM CDT reply actions  

you just keep

waiting for that day. Cause it isn’t going to happen.

by CalCalender on Apr 22, 2010 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

You have proof of this?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Apr 22, 2010 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Did you people even read this post?

Because if you did and still think this makes sense…well there is no nice way to say this but you deserve the Cubs and their short-sightedness.

by Jeff Ullrich on Apr 22, 2010 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

What would make it a success?

If Zambrano is great out of the bullpen? Unless his adrenaline gets the better of him, he should be great as a reliever, because he’s been good-to-great as a starter. And all those extra innings would provide a hell of a lot more value to the team.

by MrSportsKnowItAll.com on Apr 22, 2010 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

But he's not pitching enough of those extra innings

Not right now. 123 pitches over 5 innings is not good. He needs to be more efficient as a starter to work deeper into games.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

WTF?

If 5 innings is not good production, how is 1 inning good? I’d rather have him pitch only 5 innings than only 1.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Apr 22, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's not just about Zambrano

If he starts and throws 123 pitches over 5 innings, he’s left the bullpen with 4 innings. If he’s truly the staff ace, he should be throwing 123 pitches over 8 innings, with 1 inning for the bullpen.

1 effective relief inning from Zambrano, with another pitcher having a quality starting is better than an an ineffective 5 inning from Zambrano and taxing the bullpen.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly how many of these 123-pitch, 5-inning starts has he had?

Because by my recollection, he generally works as deep or deeper into games than anyone else on the staff.

If you like my posts, read more at MrSportsKnowItAll.com and become a fan on Facebook. Actually, even if you don't like my stuff, you should do those things, because it'll make you feel all tingly inside.

by MrSportsKnowItAll on Apr 22, 2010 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not this year

1st start – 1.1 inning 49 pitches
2nd start – 7 innings 110 pitches
3rd start – 5 innings 123 pitches
4th start – 6 innings 119 pitches

And 2009 was a “Staff Ace” for Zambrano either.

Let’s be clear here – we’re not talking about moving Tim Lincecum to the bullpen.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

meant to say - And 2009 was not a "Staff Ace" year for Zambrano either.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great, again a four-game sample.

That’s very illustrative.

If you like my posts, read more at MrSportsKnowItAll.com and become a fan on Facebook. Actually, even if you don't like my stuff, you should do those things, because it'll make you feel all tingly inside.

by MrSportsKnowItAll on Apr 22, 2010 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

2009 was illustrative too

there were more than a few 5 inning outings and that nice DL stint due to over-swinging during BP.

I honestly want Carlos Zambrano to pitch well and I want him to be a starter. I think this is just a short term change to repair the bullpen until another pitcher can be acquired. Zambrano is a very good athlete and should be able to return to the rotation. But he needs to pitch more efficiently and pitch deeper into games. That’s what the staff ace should do.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Still no specifics

Instead of relying on your anecdotal evidence of all these 5-inning starts, I decided to actually look at the stats.

Innings pitched per start

2009
Lilly 6.56
Dempster 6.45
Wells 6.11
Zambrano 6.05
Harden 5.42

2008
Zambrano 6.29
Dempster 6.26
Lilly 6.02
Marquis 5.95
Harden 5.92

2007
Zambrano 6.36
Lilly 6.09
Hill 6.09
Marquis 5.79
Marshall 5.26

Even though his IP/GS has been declining, in 2009 (the worst of the three seasons) Zambrano still averaged basically a third of an inning less than the starter who went deepest.

So where, exactly, is this taxing of the bullpen you speak of? Because it ain’t in the numbers.

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by MrSportsKnowItAll on Apr 22, 2010 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Averages?

Unfortunately, you can’t have a 6.05 innings pitched. So for 2009, Here’s how Dempster and Zambrano break down for starts

Dempster
31 Starts
<6 innings 4
6 innings 14
7 innings 10
8 innings 2
9 innings 1

Zambrano
< 6 innings 8
6 innings 11
7 innings 7
8 innings 1
9 innings 1

I think Zambrano should pitch better than this. I think he does too.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

You got me: one cannot pitch 6.05 innings

In a related story, a pitcher can’t allow hundredths of runs, and yet that’s how ERA is expressed.

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by MrSportsKnowItAll on Apr 22, 2010 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

haha

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Apr 23, 2010 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fine Dempster's better than Zambrano

If that’s your argument, I can accept that, but what about the other 4 starters on the staff. Do you honestly believe that, going forward, Silva or Gorzelanny will be more likely to give quality starts than Zambrano?

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Apr 22, 2010 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

More to the point -

Do you believe that, going forward, Silva AND Gorzelanny will be more likely to give quality starts than Zambrano?

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Apr 22, 2010 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Like I said above
I think this is just a short term change to try to win games. Lou thought Zambrano was a the best candidate of the five starters, their pitches, and ability to pitch in relief.

I will not be surprised when Zambrano returns to the rotation and Silva or Gorzelanny goes to the pen instead.

And I know Lou can’t switch this around multiple times so I’m sure he and Hendry had to think about it for awhile.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

If it's only a short-term change, I guess I can live with that...

But that doesn’t make it a good decision. What specifically makes it a good short-term decision, but not a good long-term decision?

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Apr 22, 2010 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think it's just a gap filler

The numerous bullpen blow ups so early in the season make the issue stand out more. Especially after quality starts.

If Zambrano stays in the pen too long either A) he’s not effective or B) the Cubs haven’t filled the bullpen gap. If it’s B, that a failure of management.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

If Zambrano is still in the pen a month from now...

It had better mean that Silva, Gorzo and Wells are all maintaining their current level of production. If that’s the case, I’ll eat my words and admit that this was a good decision. However, I’m extremely skeptical that that happens.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Apr 23, 2010 12:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Additionally, I enjoyed how you cherry-picked Dempster

What, did Wells and Harden’s numbers not bolster your case? I also liked that you only used 2009, when — as you pointed out earlier — Zambrano battled injury problems.

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by MrSportsKnowItAll on Apr 22, 2010 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Z, of course, had a couple of injury-shortened starts in 2009

If he just misses those starts, the numbers are essentially even.

Take May 3 – 5 IP, 1 ER – Z gets the win, and then doesn’t pitch again until May 22.

Or August 1 – 3 IP, 1 ER, no-decision, and he doesn’t pitch again until August 25.

If he’d tweaked his back or whatever in pregame warmups, suddenly Z’s per-game IP average looks even better.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Apr 22, 2010 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wells and Harden

Wells
27 Starts
< 6 innings 7
6 innings 11
7 innings 8
8 innings 1
9 innings 0

Harden
26 Starts
<6 innings 11
6 innings 10
7 innings 5
8 innings 0
9 innings 0

I don’t think anyone could look at Wells right now and want to send him to the bullpen. He got 3 ROY votes last year and he doesn’t appear to be hitting a slump

And Harden can get the Ks, but never pitched deep. That’s one reason he’s not here.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

So Wells' track record of one year

Carries more weight than Zambrano’s seven?

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by MrSportsKnowItAll on Apr 22, 2010 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

What does Zambrano's last 7 years have to do with this?

And what would prompt the Cubs to move Wells to the bullpen? I would let Wells continue to develop as a starter.

I think you’re grasping at straws there.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 11:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

"What does Zambrano's last 7 years have to do with this? "

You’re right, past performance is no indicator of future success. When the Braves signed Greg Maddux in ’93, it had nothing to do with the fact that he was a good pitcher during his first 7 years in the league. The fact that he continued to pitch well was just pure dumb luck.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Apr 23, 2010 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Would you really look at the whole 7 years?

or just the most recent 1-2 years depending on injuries, performance, etc.

I would never compare Carlos Zambrano (who predicts he will win the Cy Young) to Greg Maddux (a 4 time Cy Young winner).

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 23, 2010 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Risky, I don't know if you're intentionally being oblique

But the whole point of Zambrano’s seven years was as contrast to this statement of yours: “I don’t think anyone could look at Wells right now and want to send him to the bullpen. He got 3 ROY votes last year and he doesn’t appear to be hitting a slump,” which basically says that he shouldn’t be moved because he had one good year, while it’s okay to move Zambrano even though he’s had seven.

You also said, “I would let Wells continue to develop as a starter,” and I’m not really sure how much developing Wells, turning 28 this year and all of 15 months younger than Zambrano, has left to do.

But this whole Zambrano vs. Wells thing is ridiculous, because as I said in the post I would have left Wells in the rotation, too; he would’ve been my third choice, after Silva and then Gorzelanny. While I think he’s a better candidate than Zambrano, who cares when there’s two other guys that should have gone before him?

And those, on the advice of counsel, are my final words on the subject. As he pointed out, with the amount of time I’ve spent commenting, I could’ve done an entirely new post.

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by MrSportsKnowItAll on Apr 23, 2010 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe not, but

it is not “colossally stupid” to suggest Zambrano is slipping and has been for better than a year now. What he has accomplished more recently is of much greater relevance than what he did 3 or more years ago.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Apr 23, 2010 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

So would you say Z has slipped enough...

…to justify moving him to the bullpen?

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by daver on Apr 23, 2010 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that definitely seems to be Lou's thinking...

…but the deadredster seems to be suggesting something else.

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by daver on Apr 23, 2010 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

what do you think I am suggesting datcubfanster?

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Apr 23, 2010 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Looking at all the factors involved:

how have the other starters pitched,
how have the other bullpen pitchers pitched, yes, a very good case can be made that sending Zambrano to the pen was the logical move. Gorzo and Silva have pitched as well if not better in the rotation, and they need a RH in the pen to set up Marmol more than they need a LH.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Apr 23, 2010 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

"1 effective relief inning from Zambrano, with another pitcher having a quality starting is better than an an ineffective 5 inning from Zambrano and taxing the bullpen."

The reverse holds as well. 1 effective relief inning from Tom Gorzelanny, with Zambrano having a quality startis just as good as the reverse. And the former is a lot more likely to happen because Zambrano is better than Gorzelanny.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Apr 22, 2010 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're joking, right?

One quality inning from a set up man is good, while only five quality innings from a starter is at best okay.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Apr 22, 2010 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're only proving my point for me.

As a reliever, the best Zambrano could do would be 2 quality innings. As a starter, he’ll go at least 5. 5 innings > 2 innings.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Apr 22, 2010 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not even close to proving your point

but thanks for trying.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Apr 23, 2010 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'll try again

It doesn’t matter that 1 inning is good “for a reliever” and that 5 innings is just okay “for a starter” because that undercuts the pretty simple concept that starters are much more valuable than relievers. An average starting pitcher (let’s say 4.20 ERA over 200 innings) is more valuable than a good reliever (let’s say 3.50 ERA over 70 innings).

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Apr 24, 2010 3:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'll try again, too

The Cubs’ starting pitching has been pretty good, whereas the bullpen has been close to a nightmare. By moving Zambrano to the pen, they are taking from a strength (the rotation) to improve a weakness (the pen). They do not need six quality starters which they have when Lilly returns.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Apr 24, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Cubs' starting pitching has been very good

But the question is will it continue to be very good? If Silva and Gorzelanny continue to pitch at their current level, and Lilly makes a smooth return, it will, but all 3 of those things happening is pretty unlikely.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Apr 24, 2010 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

on this I agree

I certainly do not expect Gorzo and Silva to continue pitching at this level, but it is possible for one or both of them to be effective 4th and 5th starters, effective enough that they can leave Zambrano in the bullpen, assuming he is effective there. If one crashes to earth, and of course if both do, then Zambrano must go back to the rotation, unless, they think it is time to bring Cashner up and try him in the rotation.

But for now, the move makes a lot of sense. Silva and Gorzo are pitching better in the rotation than Zambrano was, and the bullpen desperately needed some help, especially RH help.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Apr 25, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Could you define "quality inning," please?

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by daver on Apr 23, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

seriously?

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Apr 23, 2010 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Blind to the strategy?

Oh please Jerry, explain the brilliant strategy behind this ridiculous move. I mean obvioulsy you know much more than the rest of us.

by Lukas213 on Apr 22, 2010 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right.

Because internet pundits always know more than people in baseball management.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Apr 22, 2010 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Drayton Moore

has a job in baseball management, Ed Wade has a job in baseball management I feel safe saying that several “internet pundits” know more than they do.

by CalCalender on Apr 22, 2010 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'll grant you Moore and Wade.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Apr 22, 2010 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hendry's teams have three postseason appearances.

Which is three more than Moore and Wade combined.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Apr 22, 2010 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hendry has a 130 million dollar payroll to work with

I said he’s not as bad as Wade and Moore, but he’s almost exactly equal to Minaya.

by vivaelpujols on Apr 22, 2010 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

145 million. But who's counting.....

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Apr 22, 2010 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

But wasn't it baseball management

that gave us this bullpen in the first place?

The internet pundits certainly aren’t always right… if anything, they bat .500. But let’s not pretend that baseball management has a tremendously better average.

And I say this as someone who supported the idea of the “kiddie corp” bullpen.

by fsuapollo on Apr 22, 2010 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

And I pray for your business prospects too...

If the person who owns, basically an internet chat room discussing sports, decides it’s a good idea to insult his customers, the “internet pundits” who comment and on his site by telling them in a condescending way that they are wrong. Especially to defend a statistically and strategically indefensible move by “baseball management”.

by Jeff Ullrich on Apr 22, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

How was that "condescending"?

You just basically did the same thing.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Apr 22, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

There is a difference...

Between Internet Pundit/operator and administrator of a place for (hopefully) intelligent baseball discussion and Internet Pundit/using position to say the Cubs should blow it all up and sign ADAM LIND!!!!!

by Steven Schweickert on Apr 26, 2010 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't understand the argument..

that it is a bad move because we are giving 200 innings to Silva and only 70-80 innings of Zambrano. Yes Zambrano is a better pitcher than Silva but Mariano Rivera a better pitcher than than all of the Yankees 4th/5th starters over the past ten years and nobody was complaining about him only pitching 70-80 innings. Same thing with all of the the other top relievers in baseball, they are all better pitchers than the 4th/5th starters on their respective teams and people aren’t jumping off ledges that they are only pitching 70-80 innings instead of 200.

by chipwood23 on Apr 22, 2010 2:51 PM CDT reply actions  

I will honestly try to explain

First off, while there are some exceptions — Rivera, who you mentioned, and Papelbon among them — most relievers are failed starters. There’s a reason that teams have their best prospects start, and it’s because that’s where they’ll get the most value. There is a ton more value, obviously, in 200 well-pitched innings as opposed to 70. Even if the latter come in high-leverage situations.

A lot of relievers who look totally unhittable simply don’t have enough of an arsenal to be effective as starters. A guy that relies on a single pitch (like a Joel Zumaya) can be lethal out of the pen, but if he had to go through the order a few times, hitters would adjust and catch up to his fastball, which would also likely slow down. As I said in another comment, provided Zambrano can control his adrenaline, I expect him to be extremely effective out of the bullpen. Knowing he doesn’t need to throw 100+ pitches, his fastball should have some additional giddy-up, and he should be very, very good.

But a team will play roughly 1,500 innings in a season, and they’re better off having someone that’s proven he can be successful pitch roughly 15% of those instead of 5. Which is why if you have an established, effective starter, you leave him there.

If you like my posts, read more at MrSportsKnowItAll.com and become a fan on Facebook. Actually, even if you don't like my stuff, you should do those things, because it'll make you feel all tingly inside.

by MrSportsKnowItAll on Apr 22, 2010 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

which relief pitchers?

Because on the Cubs, our relievers usually get used for one inning, unless there’s a huge blowout early.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's happened. It probably takes a guy who's been stretched out to start already.

Stranger things have happened than a relief pitcher going two innings a game a few times a week.

by Jerry Mumphrey on Apr 22, 2010 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

name some

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Apr 22, 2010 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, please, give us a list of relievers...

…who have pitched “close to 200 innings out of the bullpen.” I’d like to read it.

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by daver on Apr 22, 2010 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Out of sheer curiosity, I started checking guys stats.

The closest guy I could find is Goose Gossage, who never even came remotely close to 200 innings out of the bullpen in a single year. In 1975 with the Sox, he had about 140 innings, with no starts, and a couple of years with the Yankees he hit 130 innings, all out of the bullpen. Even Bruce Sutter never came close to those numbers. His last dominant season, in 1984, he had 122 innings out of the bullpen. In today’s game, if you hit 80 innings out of the bullpen that is a heavy workload.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Apr 22, 2010 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly.

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by daver on Apr 22, 2010 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thank You ctcoff99

For trying to add some facts to this pathetically uneducated discussion. You can’t win arguing with liars. I don’t know why I keep trying. And yes, Jerry Mumphrey, you are a liar when you say “It’s happened.” ctcoff99 just proved it hasn’t.

by Jeff Ullrich on Apr 22, 2010 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

OK now you said I am a liar

After the Marshall example has already been provided. I guess that makes you the liar. Way to discredit yourself by getting angry over the veracity of a truthful claim.

by Jerry Mumphrey on Apr 26, 2010 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

All I intended to say

was that Zambrano could be used out of the bullpen and still pick up close to 200 IP this year. He already has 3 or 4 starts, may still do some spot starting, and if used in the Gossage/Marshall mold could get close to 200 while primarily a reliever. I don’t know exactly how Marshall or Gossage was used, it may or may not have included starts, but sticking a successful starter in the bullpen doesn’t mean he can’t still throw a lot of innings.

by Jerry Mumphrey on Apr 26, 2010 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Because since 1901

Exactly one pitcher has thrown 200 innings while starting fewer than 10 games: Mike Marshall, in 1974. Incidentally, it led to a variety of maladies the following season, and after that he only topped 100 innings once.

If you like my posts, read more at MrSportsKnowItAll.com and become a fan on Facebook. Actually, even if you don't like my stuff, you should do those things, because it'll make you feel all tingly inside.

by MrSportsKnowItAll on Apr 22, 2010 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Much harder to get 200 IPs out of the pen

then as a starter. It would take at least 100 appearances to get to 200 IPs as a reliever, and a 100 appearances is highly unlikely.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Apr 22, 2010 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Z would have to have a relief appearance

in more than every other game, and go two innings in each. I can’t see that happening.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

In addition to this thought getting debunked above me....

There is that whole thing about Lou being on record saying that he is going to be used exclusively in the 8th.

“We want to use him short and we want to use (Carlos) Marmol short… An inning, or an inning and a third.”

Link.

Would supporters of this move feel the same way if, instead of going to the bullpen, Zambrano went on the DL and sacrificed anywhere from 100-140 innings of his season? Maybe it would work out!

by all4tookie on Apr 23, 2010 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

We used Wainwright

as a reliever for a season and it worked out very well. I think it is just a short term move. If you can take the lead into the 7th or 8th and have him shut teams down, your season will turn the corner quickly. By the end of the season, or by next year, you will see Z starting games again imo.

by Riney on Apr 22, 2010 3:14 PM CDT reply actions  

Waino did not have any history of being a very successful starter in the majors

Plenty of teams start their starting pitching prospects in the pen for a year so that they can get acclimated to the major league scene. Moving one of your best established starters to the pen to improve the pen at the expense of the rotation is without precedent.

by vivaelpujols on Apr 22, 2010 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I know the situations are different,

but consider John Smoltz.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Apr 22, 2010 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who, as soon as he was physically able, was put back in the rotation.

But what did that John Schuerholz guy know anyway?

If you like my posts, read more at MrSportsKnowItAll.com and become a fan on Facebook. Actually, even if you don't like my stuff, you should do those things, because it'll make you feel all tingly inside.

by MrSportsKnowItAll on Apr 22, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Smoltz was a full-time closer for three full years....

and was dominant as a closer. He did go back to being a starter, but it was not as soon as he was physically able. It was when the team needed him as a starter again. I think Z will go back to being a starter, but I think they need someone in the 8th inning that they can trust and feel confident about. They looked at their options, and I think the felt that Z was a better 8th inning option than Gorzo, Silva, or anyone else on the roster (key words being “on the roster”). I agree with them. They could have rushed Cashner up to the big leagues, but to put all this on a guy who has never pitched in the big leagues before is asking for trouble. Honestly, what would your solution have been to the 7th/8th inning situation? I can’t think of a better one.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Apr 22, 2010 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Smoltz went back to being a starter when he said he was ready.

He only became a closer because of his TJ surgery. He made the switch with the caveat that he would dictate his return to the rotation – and then he did.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Apr 22, 2010 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right, if it's only a short term (like one or two weeks)

To send a message to the team or whatever, that’s fine. If it’s anything longer than that then you start to sacrifice value.

by vivaelpujols on Apr 22, 2010 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

what are you saying?

that’s a good thing!

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Apr 23, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

This absolutely is a panic move, and it should be.

I’ve got news for you, folks: the Cardinals are 10-5, clicking on all cylinders, and are not going anywhere. We’re 6-9, have no bullpen outside of our closer, and an underachieving offense that at best is inconsistent, and at worst, completely sucks. I don’t care if it’s April or not. If you’re a Cub fan and you’re not panicking at this point, then get your head in the game. You should be. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and good for Lou for realizing this, instead of going with the old “it’s early, not time to hit the panic button” B.S.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Apr 22, 2010 3:45 PM CDT reply actions  

Agreed

I don’t think this is the worst decision of all time (the Bradley signing may earn that honor) but I think this is stupid. No way has Zambrano pitched bad enough to be moved to the pen. I can’t wait to see how Lou uses Zambrano in the pen.

I fully expect Z will be be starting again and sooner rather than later.

by rlpete on Apr 22, 2010 4:01 PM CDT reply actions  

Good post sir...

I liked the lamborghini pic/ref.

You ARE freaking out MAN!

by crw89 on Apr 22, 2010 5:08 PM CDT reply actions  

Nice shiny pics and analogies

I really enjoyed this line

that’s right, each of those transactions came to my apartment in the form of a razor, and with patented lift-and-cut technology smoothly removed time from my existence in a single stroke.

I’m not really sure what’s going to transpire of this move. I do think he’ll be back starting as soon as Silva and Gorzy start to struggle.

''I'm really not a Facebook or Twitter guy. I'm a prime rib and baked potato guy.'' - Sweet Lou

by propheteer on Apr 22, 2010 10:09 PM CDT reply actions  

heh heh heh

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Apr 23, 2010 4:06 PM CDT reply actions  

ugh,

ricky horton sitting in for al tonight

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Apr 23, 2010 4:52 PM CDT reply actions  

erm

wrong thread, wrong board.

this is epic reply fail, cub nation. feel free to berate me

"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."

by prophetjohn on Apr 23, 2010 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

I wish I knew what thread this was supposed to be in.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Apr 23, 2010 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

A VEB thread.

You can read it in any tone you like.

by spants on Apr 23, 2010 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Re

This is what happens when a writer who is clever confuses his talent with intelligence.

by Jed Taylor on Apr 24, 2010 2:23 AM CDT reply actions  

Good Post

We now have the highest paid Set-up in the league . . . and his era 6.85 in 22.1 IP and 29 hits. Money not well spent.
We should have kept him in the rotation and let him work out of it. Big Z is not a set-up man. I think once he gets back into his normal pitching and before we put him back in the rotation, we just may have the best 8th-9th inning pitching in the MLB with Big Z setting up Marmol.
So now that we have made the move, let him stay there a little and really get his confidence back after some scorless innings pitched we all know he will get in the 8th.

by CubsGuy12 on Apr 28, 2010 9:56 AM CDT reply actions  

So wait.

He should have worked it out in the rotation, but now he should work it out in the setup role?

You’re not making any sense.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Apr 28, 2010 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

I loved your post.

One of the better things that I have read in a while.

I don’t mind a Manager taking risks, but I think this decision is misguided in that it seems to arise more from a panicky reaction, as your post discusses so well.

Another ancillary aspect to this decision, is what it says about the Manager and playing for him. He may help foster an atmosphere in the clubhouse that results in choking on the field. I don’t see how it helps a team to play well under pressure when the manager can’t wait out some slumps or at least make moves that aren’t ridiculous in response. As your post points out, there are better options than the one chosen.

by DudeVf11 on May 5, 2010 9:23 AM CDT reply actions  

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