Carlos Zambrano Still Heading To Bullpen! (Oh, And Cubs Win 9-3)
by Al Yellon on Apr 22, 2010 7:30 AM CDT
in Chicago Cubs Recaps
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Why the repeat headline? Because I figure that's what's on most everyone's mind this morning.
Still, the Cubs beat the Mets 9-3 last night, snapping a four-game losing streak, and that's at least worth a brief recap -- especially since a number of good things happened.
Roy Halladay of the Phillies shut out the Braves last night and, among all NL pitchers with three or more starts, leads the league with a 0.82 ERA. Mike Pelfrey is second, Tim Lincecum third, and... with a 0.95 ERA, Carlos Silva ranks fourth. Silva was outstanding again last night, giving up only one run -- a homer to Rod Barajas -- and one other hit, and his first walk of the year (and I thought he was getting squeezed). I certainly don't expect Silva to be this good all year -- I'd settle for an ERA in the fours and performance equivalent to what the Cubs got out of Jason Marquis -- but he has been a pleasant surprise, and let's hope he keeps it up.
Meanwhile, Alfonso Soriano had three hits and a walk and, for the first time all year, looked like he could actually run the bases when he legged out a triple. He hit his second HR of the season, drove in three runs, and also drew a walk. Soriano has a history of hot streaks. Maybe this will start one.
The rest of the team also hit well, totalling 14 hits and nine walks, and even though 14 runners were left on base, for once that didn't matter, since nine of them scored. Geovany Soto went 2-for-2 with three walks; his 12 walks on the season are tied for sixth in the NL. Geo hasn't hit for much power yet -- just one double and one HR -- but all those walks are creating a great deal of offensive value.
It will be tough to split the series, with Johan Santana going for the Mets tonight. But if the Cubs can come out of NYC with that split, things will look pretty good. Now, on to more Z discussion.
It has often been said that the "save" is one of the most worthless stats in the game, since a pitcher can come into the game in a fairly low-leverage situation -- three runs ahead and nobody on base in the ninth inning -- and get a "save" by retiring three hitters. Granted, this isn't the only way to register a save, but it does happen frequently. In a situation like that, the pitcher can even give up two runs, posting an 18.00 ERA for the game, and still get a "save".
Often, the toughest situations in games come in the seventh or eighth innings, with a team ahead by one or two runs and multiple baserunners.
So why not use one of your best pitchers in that situation? Consider this scenario: the Cubs are at home, leading 4-2 in the top of the 7th, and the other team gets runners on first and third with two out.
In comes Carlos Zambrano. He retires the hitter, getting out of the jam. It so happens that the pitcher's spot is coming up fourth in the bottom of the 7th -- so Lou lets Z bat for himself. The Cubs also put runners on first and third with one out, and instead of trying to hit a 900-foot home run, Z plays situational ball -- sending a fly to right to score an insurance run.
He then retires the side in the eighth 1-2-3, setting the stage for Carlos Marmol to come in for one of those "easy" saves in the ninth (three runs ahead, nobody on base).
To me, the angst over this move is overblown. Crunch the numbers and convince yourself this is a bad move -- in my opinion, it's just what the team needed to give itself a boost. It was a wakeup call to a club that appeared to be sleepwalking through its last few games. It's unconventional, and granted, most teams wouldn't take one of its best starters and do this with him. And, according to this, it's temporary:
The move is temporary, Piniella said. Zambrano, who is 1-2 with a 7.45 ERA in four starts, has already set his sights on starting in the postseason.
"I told Lou I want to help this team until you find somebody," Zambrano said. "I told him I want to be back for the playoffs. If we go to the playoffs, I want to go back to the rotation."
So, he will start again this year?
"Like [Arnold] Schwarzenegger says, I will be back," Zambrano said.
Right now, there doesn't appear to be anyone suitable available to acquire to fill that role. The Cubs looked at Braden Looper -- I'm glad they didn't sign him. In a few weeks, perhaps Jim Hendry can swing a deal and Z will return to the rotation. It's temporary. In the meantime, maybe Z can help turn some of the seventh and eighth inning disasters we've seen so far in 2010 into wins.
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I agree with this assessment
The starting rotation has been solid, but the bullpen needs shoring up until a suitable set-up guy can be acquired.
I was really hoping Soriano could hit the cycle at that last AB.
Thank you, Al
for being a calm voice of reason.
I'm a firm believer in the philosophy of a ruling class. Especially since I rule. -Randal Graves
Writer at windycitygridiron.com -/-I http://www.twitter.com/kdoggers
You want overblown angst?
I have now officially jumped the shark or whatever. I don’t want the Cubs to lose tonight but I want Gorzo shelled. Seriously I do. This is how much I hate the insane idea of moving Z to the bullpen. There is no way in hell Gorzo is a better pitcher to have in the rotation than Z. If someone needs to go in the bullpen it is Gorzo of course since he is a lefty he just won’t help Lou. The concept of pissing on Z ( and I don’t care what nice terms they put it in, that is what it is) because Lou can’t find anyone to pitch the 8th is beyond horrible. So yes I want Gorzo shelled. Hopefully the Cubs can score 10 runs of Santana and win anyway. Z is NOT that bad and to do this to him right after his best start is disgusting.There is so little upside and so much downside I can not comprehend how anyone in their right mind would do this. You can’t just throw Z into the bullpen for a few weeks while you try to make some pathetic trade and expect him to be the same. This is the same guy who moved to CHICAGO for the winter to get in better shape. Who has totally controlled the temper people ragged on him over. Just as he gets in a groove he is treated like dirt and given a role he may or may not be any good at. If TLR did something like this we would be laughing ourselves silly.
You have known for years Al and I am not a hothead despite some our debates. I still believe the Cubs and contend but this move has made me more depressed and angry at the Cubs than I have been for years.
This probably belongs in one of the 10 other Z threads but I just get more pissed every hour over this.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 7:45 AM CDT reply actions 17 recs
I think what is lost here
is do you want Zambrano to start, pitch a gem, and have the cubs up 1-0 and then have to go to Gorzo in the eighth? I think our chances would immediately fly out the door in a 1-0 game with our current bullpen. Part of the reason Z is there is to light a fire under the other relievers around him. I like the move a lot.
In the middle of difficulty, lies opportunity - Einstein
by cubbieblue86 on Apr 22, 2010 7:47 AM CDT up reply actions
No I want them to score some damn runs
How many of the BP failures would have mattered if the Cubs had scored 5 runs? Screwing Z is NOT the answer. A-Ram is the single biggest reason the Cubs have struggled even if no one wants to say it. Your top hittier, your clutch guy is batting
.131 and you react by demoting a guy who is doing well save a craptastic first game. So sending Z to the BP is going to
fire up the other relievers. How does that happen. Z pitches OK and Lou continues not to trust anyone else so when Gorzo does implode or there is an injury to a SP we do what exactly? Or Z does not do well and in one fell swoop you have messed up him, the bullpen and most especially the team. You do not send your perfectly good 18 million dollar starter to be a set up man. Perhaps you bench your 16 million dollar 3B till he hits his weight?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 8:03 AM CDT up reply actions
The money is irrelevant
He’s getting it regardless of where he plays, so you might as well temporarily (and yes, I’m 99% sure this is a short-term move) get the value in the bullpen, where a stretched out, right-handed reliever who can take his at-bats is quite valuable.
I'm a firm believer in the philosophy of a ruling class. Especially since I rule. -Randal Graves
Writer at windycitygridiron.com -/-I http://www.twitter.com/kdoggers
I agree that Ramirez should have been given a day off...
… vs. Pelfrey. Makes no sense to start Tracy vs. LHP. Maybe this weekend in Milwaukee.
How about waiting to see if this move actually works before you blast it?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
How about waiting to see if this move actually works before you blast it?
Filed away for future reference…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Apr 22, 2010 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Glad you said it
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
Alternatively...
how about seeing if it works before you give it high praise?
by kanderber on Apr 22, 2010 8:32 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because I think it will work.
If it doesn’t, I’ll admit I was wrong.
Will any of the rest of you do the same if it does work?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes, if it works I will.
And I will admit right now that I’m starting to have a better opinion of Soriano.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
awww, yeah....
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Yup
Lost in all of this is the had-wringing that was going on over Soriano and Silva both. Glad that they are proving all of us wrong
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
^hand. Sorry
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
I have faith that this is going to work!
What sucks is Z wants to go back to the rotation if the Cub’s make it to the playoffs. He is actually quoted saying this, so that means that he’s thinking he could be there for all of the season. What scares me about this is if we ride hiim throughout the season and we make it to the playoffs and you grant him his wish to send him back to the rotation, I forsee a quick exit out of the playoffs. Especially if we are doing well all season because of this move. Think about it the bullpen is 1-6. You could have had Z turn things around and we’d be 13-2 maybe at least 10 wins easily.
by alabamacubbie on Apr 22, 2010 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions
in theory
if we make it to the playoffs and Z goes back into the rotation, Wells would be coming out of the pen anyway, because you take three starters — Z, Lilly, Demp.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I would take Wells in a high pressure start (5 game series) over Z everytime...
and twice on Sunday.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
plus putting Z back in the rotation would only complicate things. You’re taking him out of a comfort zone that he’s been in for the past 6 months. Why chance it? I hope Hendry and Lou would realize if that came up that sometimes it’s what’s best for the team and not what the player wants, but who the hell knows with them.
by alabamacubbie on Apr 22, 2010 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Z pitched well in the playoffs in both 2007 and 2008.
In 2007, it wasn’t his fault that Lou yanked him too early.
In 2008, it wasn’t his fault that the defense suddenly decided to stop fielding.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I still don't trust him under pressure.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Ahh facts.
They just get in the way. Feelings are what’s important.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 22, 2010 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions
the hell jerry?
I’m not arguing facts…I’m stating my opinion….turn down the snark o’meter a bit, will ya?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Sorry
I couldn’t resist having a bit of a laugh..
by jerry morales rules on Apr 22, 2010 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Facts make me all confuzzled
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
♬ ♪ Feelings.... nothing more than feelings... ♠♫
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Yeah, but this is a different year and a different Z.
2007 he won 18 games and 2008 he won 14 games. Last year, as you know, he won only 9 games. He’s been on a steady decline. Plus if they start him in the playoffs, you’re only weakening your bullpen. I would just keep Wells, Lilly, and Dempster as the three starters in the playoffs and maybe Silva will be a frontrunner with how things have been going so far. If Z does well in the pen and they take him out to put him as a starter for the playoffs they are going to have to send him down before the playoffs start to the minors to get in some innings because he’ll be only throwing 1 to 2 innings.
by alabamacubbie on Apr 22, 2010 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions
this 2010
the last time wins meant anything was in the 90’s
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Apr 22, 2010 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions
this is i mean
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Apr 22, 2010 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions
When a players wins starting dipping
year to year like Z’s, the likelihood that he will have a year like he did in 07’ is highly unlikely. Same with Soriano’s HR’s. His homeruns 46, 33, 29, and 20. Numbers decline as the years progress, usually. Sometimes there are exceptions, but I don’t think Z will be that same guy he was a few years ago. He may win 12 games some other year, but he’s not going over 15 again.
by alabamacubbie on Apr 22, 2010 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions
wins arent the way to judge wether a pitcher is declining
"The roar from the crowd really fired me up," Burish said. "In warmups there were a lot of signs. One said 'Burish, my grandma is pregnant.' I don't know what that means. I skated by it and said, 'it's not mine.' "
by jesus christos on Apr 22, 2010 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions
8 years of comfort
is suddenly trumped by 6 months?
Its like the world has gone crazy.
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
<img src=“”http://s744.photobucket.com/albums/xx81/drewishdrewid/?action=view¤t=roflbot-RIrj.jpg" target="_blank">
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Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't necessarily disagree.
But if Z is promised a return to the rotation for the playoffs, you don’t put Lilly or Demp in the pen, right?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions
It might depend on who we're facing....dominate handedness of the lineup and whatnot...
and in reality, at least for a short series, your starters should all be available to pitch WHENEVER AND WHEREVER they’re needed.
I’m not entirely sure thinking about the playoff implications is very prudent right now anyway. I can’t imaging that factoring into the Z/bullpen decision at this point.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
no, probably not.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Which raises the question again -
Why wasn’t it Wells this time?
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
That's a good question
Perhaps it’s because he and Dempster are two of the most rock solid guys in the rotation. Both seem very consistent, and don’t get rattled very easily. I get what you’re saying though.
Something else I wondered, but kind of know the answer to, but why not put Lilly in the pen to ease him in some more?
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Apr 22, 2010 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Because we want Ted Lilly's trade value
to be maximal in case this is a selling season.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
I'd bet...
…that Z is back in the rotation way before any potential playoff games.
I’m guessing Lou sat down with Z and had a talk with him and asked him to do this (for a variety of reasons) to help the club and he would be back in the rotation before too long.
If this didn’t happen and Carlos new it was long term, I think he would have lost it.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Precisely.
Which is why the angst here and elsewhere is way overblown.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Don't you thionk Carlos would have been justified
in losing it if they made this move w/o talking to him at all?
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
Yes...
…with a veteran player especially, you always give him the courtesy of talking to him before you make a move like this.
If after talking with him he still doesn’t like it, than tough shit.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Is this the same kind of talk he had with Sam Fuld
when he told him before Spring Training that he was on the team? Or when he said Colvin would get 2-3 starts a week?
I’m not sure I’d take Lou at his word if I were a Cubs player right now.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions
This.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
By what standard would this "work"?
Any team having bullpen troubles can take one of their best starters, put them in the pen to nail down the 8th, and say “Well, that worked.”
It’s robbing Peter to pay Paul – you’re taking a better player and replacing them with a worse one in order to fill a role that has less of an impact on the team in the big picture.
The only way this would “work” is if Gorzelany and Silva pitch better over the entire season than Zambrano could have – which is not only difficult to measure, it’s hysterically unlikely.
The problem isn’t that this might not work, it’s that it couldn’t possibly work.
I suppose
that’s not entirely true. The way this works is if Gorzelany and Silva pitch well enough to win the games that Zambrano could have. That doesn’t necessarily mean pitching as well as Z did, just pitching well enough.
I still think it’s unlikely.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
This is exactly how I felt yesterday.
After sleeping on it though I am more open to the idea. Not much…I still think it’s nuts. But I do like that they are doing something/anything and doing it NOW before the season spirals too out of control.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
Agree x100
I think it is a great move, but even more importantly, the Cubs are doing SOMETHING before it is too late. Any decision can be un-done. Let’s see how it works.
But my opinion of Sori is not better……yet.
Opinions of Soriano...
…will vary greatly throughout the year because that is simply what the guy is and how he plays.
He may go on one of his hot streaks for 4-5 games and people will be saying how great he is. A week later, he may go 2-20 with 10K’s and everyone will think he sucks.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
And in each case...
everyone will be correct.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions
At that moment in time...
…yes, but over 162, you judge a guy on the total package he brings to the table.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
TWSS
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Heck I could not even GET a good nights sleep over this
So if Lou had announced he was making Marmol the set up guy and Grabow or Shark the closer because he felt they would really be good in the 9th inning would we praise it just because he made some crazy move to shake stuff up?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Obviously, no.
It’s not just making a move, it’s making an intelligent move that will help the team.
Again: let it play out before you blast it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
wow, you're actually letting this affect your sleep?
seriously? I’m a Cubs fan, but lord.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't agree with you much
but, uh, yeah, what he said. Come on, DS, don’t you think you’re overreacting just a tad?
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Apr 22, 2010 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Nope
even in the best case it is not good. Forgetting how pathetic it is that you need to take a GOOD starter to be a SET UP man, I think this will effect Z in the long term. Remember Lou continued to use Caridad & Grabow when they were awful. I think Berg, Russell & Marshall could handle the 8th most of the time if used right and I don’t see Z being that much better. Two for one. wreck Z’s confidence and make sure the rest of bullpen knows you have no confidence in them. Yep that really works.
For the record I lose a lot of sleep over the Cubs
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions
As a great man once wrote "You worry too much, you make yourself sad..."
Remember it’s a game… a game that you have absolutely no control over.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
If it makes you feel any better
I was pretty hyped until about midnight and I usually am sleeping by 10pm. As I stated before I still think it’s nuts. But since there is nothing we can do about it, why not just ride it out and see what happens? I didn’t expect even one good start out of Silva and was wrong about that. So who knows?
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
actually seeing Silva in Spring Training
I thought he might be pretty good.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Not lost
What I’m more worried about is it being 1-7 by the time we get to the eigth with Gorzo pitching. Then it won’t matter how good Z is coming out of the pen. I feel having Z in the starting rotation gives us the better chance to win. And while I’m not jumping off cliffs or anything it upsets me. I still hope the cubs win, and I think they can. And I really hope this “move” is short term.
how on earth does this comment make sense?
if gorzellanny isn’t competent to pitch one inning in a game, why does it make sense to have gorzellany pitch 5, 6, or 7 at a time? to rebut a related point, if the bullpen is ‘overbalanced’ with three or four lefties in it, why does it make sense to say one of the lefties should be in the rotation where he will face more batters and more right-handed batters? gorzellany does not forget how to pitch to right handers in the bullpen, nor does he likely pitch to them substantially better in the rotation.
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
Yes, that's overblown angst.
In the end, whatever management does, I want my team to win. Doesn’t matter how. To actively want your team to lose — I simply don’t understand that concept.
Yes, if TLR made a move like this we’d have given the Cardinal fans some grief. But what if it works?
See you next week. When, hopefully, this move will have helped the Cubs to a winning streak.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I want Gorzo to suck
If they can win anyway I would love it, but the sooner this farce ends the better the Cubs will be.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You want your team to lose because you don't agree with a managers move?
I don’t get that. I just heard one of the guys on the radio say that even if he’s successful, it’s(the move) a failure. So if Z is great and the Cubs get to the WS, it’s a failure because Z makes too much money to be in the bullpen. That’s crazy. The payroll is what it is. Piniella’s responsibility is to win games. If putting Z in the bullpen wins games, then that is what he should do.
-1
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 8:46 AM CDT up reply actions
BOOOO
I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE it when fans do this – I disagree so I hope that something bad happens so I can say – SEE I TOLD YOU SO, probably if that bad thing will happen my team will lose but if they can still poop rainbows and win then yay but at least I will be right. This is the same discussion that some people had when Silva was doing well in Spring Training and was named to the starting rotation – “I WANT HIM TO SUCK SO WE CAN RELEASE HIM” – WHAT!? Why? I hope this works fantastically and if it doesnt, well shit wasnt working before.
Everyone’s angst over this is just rediculous. It isnt like this is September and we are 2 games behind with 3 to go…it is APRIL and we are 3 below .500 and 4 games back. Experiment, if it doesnt work, well as I said before, the shit wasnt working before.
What was the single biggest weakness of this team? The bullpen
What was the single biggest strength of this team? The rotation
What do we have a shortage of? Relievers who dont have a ERA south of 5.00
What do we have a excess of? Starters who are doing AWESOME right now.
MMM…what to do what to do…the team is struggling and we need something to kick this team in the butt…and maybe, just maybe, we will come out better off – if not half of you people out there that hate this move were already writing off the 2010 season.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
by hansman1982 on Apr 22, 2010 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions 23 recs
Turn this green.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Apr 22, 2010 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes turn green short sighted nonsense that agrees with you!!!!
Mr. Yellon you would thrive at FOXnews
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by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Apr 22, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't see how it was a short sighted comment at all.
I also don’t see how foxnews has ANYTHING to do with this. I don’t see their reporting as short sighted. A little biased? Maybe. But all of the other ones are too. I thought hansmans comments were right on. So did 16 other people obviously.
United we stand and united we'll fall......down on our knees the day we win it all!
by Bricks and Ivy on Apr 22, 2010 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't want this to be a thing, but
disseminating misinformation to your viewers to garner ratings seems short-sighted to me. If not for Fox News itself, at least for the country.
That said, I don’t see any shortsightedness in hansmans’s comment. Z’s been doing well, lately, but we all agree he’s been shaky for the past couple years. I don’t see bullpen work “destroying” his confidence or ability as a starter, and if this doesn’t work out, they’ll put him back.
I think it is a good sign that he didn't act like a baby for being bullpenned (new word).
He is showing a little maturity there.
United we stand and united we'll fall......down on our knees the day we win it all!
by Bricks and Ivy on Apr 22, 2010 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
The single biggest problem is NOT THE BULLPEN
It is the HITTING and this does NOTHING for the hitting. The Cubs would be 12-4 if they had just scored 5 runs a game. Does demoting Z help A-Ram hit? This is not a kick in the butt , it is a kick in the head.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Where was that against Houston?
Or the two days before vs the Mets?
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
are you serious?
You point to one game, and when someone rebuts with three others, you respond with small sample size?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions
No, of course I'm not serious.
It was part of the larger point, which is let this move play out for a while!
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
+1
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Of course it makes sense.
Everyone’s micromanaging this whole situation. Let’s try to look at the bigger picture.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Something did seem to light a fire
with this team last night. 1 Game isn’t going to tell us anything yet, but last nights game was something I wasn’t sure I would see the Cubs ever do again, so it was encouraging. I’m not sure what the big deal is with those who are opposed to this move, but I definitely think we should let it play out. We haven’t even seen Z pitch one inning of relief yet for goodness sake!
Yeah something lit a fire - Soriano and Soto who have been
coming out of slumps for about a week now. Don’t confuse facts with coincidences. Oliver Perez has been slapped around by the Cubs many times before and Geo and Sori are really starting to hit now. This just happened to occur right after this Z to the bullpen thing. The fire was already there. If you have been watching these guys over the last few games, you would have seen that they have been picking it up.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 22, 2010 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Okay
so last nights game play may have had nothing to do with the announcement, I’ll agree with that. As long as you agree that you can’t totally rule it out. Wait and see. If it doesn’t work out, fine, but who knows at this point what the outcome is going to be.
Sorry, but I can't go there. This isn't football. I really don't
think Soriano and Soto were sitting in the locker room thinking “OK, now we’ve got Z in the bullpen. We can start to hit again.” This move may work out fine, but I find it hard to believe that last night’s game was the result of Lou announcing that Z was going to the pen.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 22, 2010 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Your profile picture is fitting.
by GoBackToSchaumburg on Apr 22, 2010 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Hey, I really appreciate Joe Morgan's commentary.
He is an inspiration. He gives you the best inside perspective on the game of baseball. Is that such a big deal!!!
Seriously,
Which is a smaller sample size, one game or four games?
The impression I’m getting is four games is a smaller sample size than one game.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions
You mean like Zambrano and Silva this year?
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Apr 22, 2010 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Small. Sample. Size.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions
So the Cubs giving up 21 some odd runs in the 8th inning
isn’t the biggest problem. The Cubs can mash the ball all they want, but if the bullpen keeps giving the game back, then what does it matter if the offense comes around?
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Apr 22, 2010 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions
That makes no sense
because the offense isn’t mashing all they want.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions
You missed the point
Considering your past, this isn’t surprising.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Apr 22, 2010 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions
No, you don't have a point, as usual you point to a situation that hasn't happened
to try and make one
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions
have we blown a 6 run lead yet?
No. As bad as the pen as been, when there’s been a problem it’s been with holding a 1 or 2 run lead
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions
"The Cubs CAN mash the ball all they want, [...]"
The point is that if we were to fix our offense and not the BP, then it wouldn’t matter if the Cubs could score, because the BP would just give up runs to cancel out those runs. Likewise, fixing the BP doesnt help those times when the game is close and we need just a couple runs to win, but at least they can keep it close. I guess you could say the same for the offense keeping it close for the BP. Personally, I’d rather fix the BP first. All those games during the opening away series (Reds and Braves) could have been one, but the BP blew leads. yeah the offense could have scored mroe runs, but you can’t except a team to score 4 or 5 runs every single game. You should expect you BP to hold leads or keep games withing your grasp.
by Rhymenoceros on Apr 22, 2010 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Bottom line is that the Cubs would 10-5
had they been able to just average ove four runs a game. Yes the bullen lost or could not hold ( tie scores) games of 2-1 -3-2 4-3 etc but here is the deal. Teams are suppossed to score at least 4 plus runs a game. A team ERA of under 3 is not likely. Starting has been great but no way Silva & Gorzo’s ERA’s in particular stay at that level. Hitting is the problem.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Um bullpen not bullen.
Also I was not picking on Gorzo or Silva , NOBODY sustains that kind of ERA.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
If Zambrano is not throwing 123 pitches in 5 inning in April maybe the Cubs don't make this move
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Jessica
I understand that the offense needs work as well…but does this move have ANYTHING to do with the offense? no…its a “free” way to shore up the pen…
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
It matters a lot,
Because the starting pitchers would have a lot of the pressure taken off their shoulders. I really believe that the pressure of having to go out and put up zeros while the other team is holding the Cubs without getting a run across is what causes the starters to struggle occasionally.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions
The Cubs lost six games in which they could not score 5 runs
and a 7th would have been a tie. So a bullpen can’t hold 2-1 or 1-0 games. Unfortunate but not the real problem. If you do NOT score runs you need a PERFECT bullpen and no one has that. It is clear the problem is HITTING or in fact SCORING RUNS. So again you want to kick ass and make a statement and do some good.
How bout sitting A-Ram and his .131 BA and letting Tracy bat for a whole week.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions
You don't need a perfect bullpen.
You need one that is good enough. This bullpen is terrible. If you have a 2 run lead, you should be able to trust that one guy, or even a couple of guys will go out there in the 7th inning, retire the side quietly, and allow your setup man to get you to the 9th. Will the bullpen give up runs, sure, but this bullpen is making it impossible to win close games.
And I completely agree that the offense is a huge problem, and I’d love to see more of what I saw yesterday, but that isn’t alway going to happen. More often than not, this team is going to be up by 2 or 3 runs, and those games can’t all be give aways because of the bullpen.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Apr 22, 2010 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions
so, the offense sucks, but the bullpen is the real problem.
what?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions
You would need a perfect bullpen you DO NOT SCORE RUNS
Cubs gave up two runs in the 8th last night BUT IT DID NOT MATTER because they scored runs.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
And if our bullpen was worth a damn we'd have a winning record
Because our starting pitching has been so good that we could have won games with a one or two run lead if the pen wasn’t consistently terrible. You can not excuse ****ty pitching by saying the offense should have scored more runs.
But can the offense be fixed with a move from the inside like this?
Will sitting Aram one day suddenly cause the Cubs to score 5 runs consistently? Would starting Colvin more often?
The scoring and the bullpen are separate issues that are fixed in different ways.
The point is
Hitting is the problem and this does NOTHING to fix it. No bullpen in the world is going to win most games in which a team scores 3 to 4 runs. Silva is great and so are the others but the starters are not going to have
ERA’s of under 3. If Lou wanted to shake things up and send a message the logical thing was sitting A-Ram but instead he messed up Z.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
you are assuming hat fixing the offense will also fix the BP, or you don't even think the BP is a problem.
Unfortunately, it is. The offense and the BP are two separate, but equally important issues. Lou, or whoever, decided to fix one of the problems, the BP, by moving Z to the pen. Why focus on the BP and not the offense? Well the BP could be seen as the more quickly fixable. Ted comes back this weekend, so the pressing matter in terms of pitching is who to sit and who to stay. Why Z over Gorzo or Silva? Well, Gorzo would make yet another Lefty in the Pen. Plus, Silva and Gorzo have been really good so far this year. I know, I know, “Small.Sample.Size”, but based on merit, I’d end Z to the pen too. Z has been decent, better than anyone in the pen (SM & Marmol aside). Silva and Gorzo have been better. Past numbers may not indicate that this will continue, but who knows? Either one may have a career year.
The Offensive fix doesn’t seem to be as readily fixable. The only obvious move is to bench Rami for a couple of days, but for some reason Lou is too stubborn, or he just wants Rami to fight through it. Other than that, I can’t think of any other easy/affordable way to fix the offensive woes in an empirical/tangible way.
by Rhymenoceros on Apr 22, 2010 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
No I am saying the issues with the bullpen won't matter if they don't hit
Cubs would be 10-5 if they had just scored over 4 runs a game which is not that high. You can not expect any pitching staff to maintain an ERA of 3 which is what they need to win. Silva & Gorzo can not maintain their ERA’s. I am not picking on them it is just not possible.
Moreover there are some perfectly servicable pitchers but for whatever reason Lou kept going to Shark, Grabow and before them Caridad. Russell, Berg & Marshall are not so horrible that they require you to pull Z out of the rotation.on the possibility that he might be that much better.
This is an ill conceived move of desperation , not a good strategic move.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions
and I'm say that the the issue with offense won't matter if the BP can't hold leads
both problems need to be fixed. like I said above, the BP seems to be the easier fix at this point.
by Rhymenoceros on Apr 22, 2010 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Wrong
As I said the Cubs would be 10-5 if they had just had adverage hitting. It is NOT realistic to expect a team to have an ERA under 3 , it is NOT unrealistic to expect a team to score more than four runs a game.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
you SERIOUSLY need to TAKE a chill pill
or at LEAST take a step BACK and/or a DEEP breath or two. Do you NOT SEE that there are at least TWO problems with THIS team – the offense AND the bullpen? and that these ARE different problems, related only because it’s the SAME team?
So AVERAGE hitting and a sucky bullpen GETS you a 10-5 record? Even if you can statistically PROVE that to be the case, I HIGHLY doubt that winning pctg would HOLD up over the course of the SEASON.
WHAT’s wrong with trying to FIX the bullpen AND the offense?
strange… my keyboard SEEMS to be locked in DOGGIE-caps mode…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Apr 22, 2010 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nothing is wrong with fixing the bullpen
but as you might have noticed I think this a horrible way to do it and to do something this crazy without making any moves re hitting is even crazier.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
A win is a win
You don’t get style points.
by IllinoisCubs on Apr 22, 2010 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions
After last year
I don’t want any Cubs players to suck. Gorzo sucking hurts us so much as if he gets 1 or 2 more good performances on the mound, he’s a very viable player to trade. Not only that, but Soriano sucked bad last year, and people wanted him to get worse so Lou would notice, and when he finally did, it was way too late. The notion of wanting a player for a team you support to tank is insane, like mutually assured destruction insane.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Apr 22, 2010 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Where's the un-rec button?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions
as much as I don't think this is a fantastic idea
I don’t want Gorzo to suck. You gotta want the players on your team to perform as best they can, no matter what position they’re in, Jessica.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
I never wanted anything like this before
but something, anything needs to happen to short circuit this move. I want the least damage of course. OK let Gorzo pitch well but slip on a banana on the way to the bus and go on the DL for a short period.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions
I think you might be off the deep end on this one, Jess
I don’t know how it’s going to work but I’m willing to try it.
Frankly, I can’t believe the number of Cubs fans who want this season to be a failure so their not-so-hidden agendas (firing Lou, firing Hendry, unloading Soriano, etc.). can be fulfilled.
I think you’ve all lost your minds.
I hope the same people who were whining that Lou didn’t pull Gregg out of the closer’s role soon enough aren’t now saying it’s too soon to try to fix a problem.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Apr 22, 2010 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions 11 recs
Except I am NOT one of those fans
I do NOT want the Cubs to fail, I don’t even want Gorzo to fail but I am willing to have these extreme thoughts because I strongly believe this move is EXTREMELY dangerous to the team. The upside is minimal the downside horrific.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
And I strongly disagree with you.
The downside is minimal, the upside could be a solid bullpen.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The downside is "minimal"
Really. Pulling a starting pitcher making 18 million who is NOT doing poorly and is actually improving and making him an 8th inning set up guy does not have much a downside? How bout this Z does not do well and blows a few leads and now we put him back in the rotation. No doubt that will help him. Z does wel for say 3 weeks when Gorzo either turns into a pumpkin or twists his ankle. Z is unable to adjust to a starter role for the next 3 starts and Berg, Russell & Marshall who have been relagated to 7th inning and mop up duty don’t do well in the 8th due to lack of practice and knowing Lou had so much confidence in them he pulled Z out of the rotation. That is a hell of downside and a lot more likely than a lights out Z in the 8th who shifts effortlessly back to starting when the Cubs trade Colvin, Jackson & Vitters for a reliever ( hey they have to hang on to Castro).
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Wow are you pessimistic
and you just made all that up. It’s all “what ifs”.
by cubsonWGN4ever on Apr 22, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
So realistically you think Carlos will be just fine in the 8th
The rotation will be fine without him and he can just slide back in when there is a problem and you think I am using “what ifs”?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions
I think what Al is saying
is that his view is not as far from probability as your view is, Jess.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Apr 22, 2010 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions
And I of course strongly disagree.
In the BEST case we pull a good starter who has worked his ass off and make him a set up guy after two weeks because Lou is convinced Marshall, Russell & Berg could not do the job, then we hope we can make make a trade and Z can come right back. We are also hoping that nothing happens to any of the remaining starters. We are also assuming that there will be no long term effects on Z because I am kind of guessing he is not intended to stay a set up guy for the rest of his contract. Just because it is an out of the box idea does not make it worth “giving it a chance”. Like I mentioned before the Cubs could also have moved Soriano to 2nd and started Colvin in LF and I strongly suspect those of you who think moving Z to the bullpen is "worth a shot " and I am just being some Debbie Downer would have freaked and asked for Lou & Jim’s head on a platter.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions
While I am not in favor of the move
The downside is “horrific”?
I think that if a kid pitches his major league debut, then goes out and gets killed in a car accident, that could be called “horrific”. The moves that the Cubs make, but don’t work, I would maybe call “embarassing” or “bush league”.
Please put this in perspective.
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
by vonde6 on Apr 22, 2010 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agree with Al...
It’s too soon to tell. I know our bad start has brought out some doom and gloom, but I think this move could work out. Might it fail? Absolutely. But let’s wait to see what happens. It may also be looked at as a brilliant move a month from now. I for one want it to work out for us.
Learn this line, and use it often- "Yes dear, you're right, I'm sorry" -Bob Brenly
by SotoRiot on Apr 22, 2010 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
Please make it green!
(This story was produced by BCPDnewservice. Our motto: If you don’t like this story then suck it!)
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Apr 22, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
The upside is winning...
the downside is upsetting Z?
Last I heard, this was a team game. Right now, putting Z in the bullpen is the best thing for this team. If he can put his ego aside and do the right thing for the team, at least in the short term, the Cubs may actually have a chance.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
-1
Wishing ill or failure on any Cubs player is simply terrible. In no way can you make this a positive team. It looks to me like this is becoming less about having success on the field and more about appeasing your ego.
srsly?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
if the cubs go on a winning streak
i have no doubt you will claim this is the reason
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
by prophetjohn on Apr 22, 2010 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions
i guess this is a good point, though
what if giving albert pujols 5 times fewer at bats works?
i washed a plate in the sink the other day and it wasn’t quite celan when i was done. i am going to start washing dishing in my shower and bathing in the sink. just to, y’know, shore up the plumbing a little bit
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
by prophetjohn on Apr 22, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
what if
releasing your entire team and calling up the whole AA squad works. i mean, what if?
"Moneyball: It's kind of like communism."
by prophetjohn on Apr 22, 2010 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The more I think about this move, the more I think about what a bad idea it is
And not just because we’re moving Zambrano to the pen, but we’re moving him to the pen to be the 8th inning guy.
This is now the second dude in the pen who could be a long relief man, but instead has already been assigned one inning assignments. Maybe our pen wouldn’t be so weak if we didn’t throw three arms every damn game.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions
If the way the Cubs and Z are spin doctoring the move is half way truthful,
then Z was not “pissed on” and agrees that going to bullpen may be the best thing for the team for a limited period. Again, assuming the spin has a “good” level of veracity, then I admire Z and Lou for trying this out.
I do agree that the paucity of runs sucks.
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
You have not liked Lou since day 1 so..
when he tries something that is out of the ordinary, your dislike for him colors your view, So you then want the Cubs to lose so this move blows up in his face and your dislike of Lou is further justified. I just guess you are as unreasanable as you say I am when I say I dont care about players who were once Cubs once they leave the team.
See the Cubs 2010 schedule (now with game times & TV Schedule) at http://cubsbythenumbers.com/sched2010.html
Also see what old Cubs Scorecards looked like at http://cubsbythenumbers.com/scorecards.html
by kaseyi on Apr 22, 2010 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Actually for the record
I had NO problem with Lou in 07. Yes it was the PHillies game in April of 08 that opened my eyes. I don’t want the Cubs to lose, I want them to see ASAP how insane this move is and if that means Gorzo getting shelled so be it because it will cause less long term damage then moving Z to the bullpen. Also it is not about caring for the players it is about common sense.
If Lou decided the way to improve hitting was to move Soriano to 2nd and put Colvin in LF would everyone think that was a great idea or at least “give it a chance” . I don’t think so
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
what a hero!
he moved to chicago and got in good shape! he’s a true humanitarian and deserves to be lauded. i’m surprised he could afford to stay in chicago for the whole winter. he has truly made sacrifices.
by John T. Unger on Apr 22, 2010 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Anyone else notice?
Z seems to struggle with command early in his starts before he finds his groove. Ten BB in four starts is not horrendous, but not exactly an improvement over what’s in the ’pen right now. Is he really who we want coming in with runners on base and nobody out in the 7th?
"Let's not get giggly." - Lou
I really don't understand the logic here
Instead of hoping that the move will work out despite your opposition to it, you want the team to fail because were it to work out you would be wrong, and we can’t have any of that, eh?
I think she's going for the idea that
“if its going to fail, then let it fail NOW so that we can get back to making sense”.
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
Great game for Soriano, and he does look in command at the plate.
However, Oliver Perez and Manny Acosta are guys who probably never make a playoff roster. When he shows he can do anything against an actual top-flight pitcher I’ll be impressed. I’m predicting .260 with 22 HRs for Soriano.
so.....four years ago
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Would you be happy with that?
Given his numbers the past few years, I’d be ecstatic
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
"Past few years?"
I think the revisionist history regarding Soriano in 2006 and 2007 is really aggravating. The guy had two very good years that were slightly injury shortened. His OPS those years was .897 and .876. Slightly above his career OPS. He was a 7 WAR player in 2007 and a 4.4 WAR player in 2008 (considering the time he missed both those years are outstanding figures). Perhaps he wasn’t worth the money that Hendry gave him, but that isn’t his fault.
Lets not pretend he has been a dog since he got here. He had a really bad year last year that may or may not have been injury-related and had a bad first week of the season. But, since then he has been the best hitter on the team and now has an OPS over .900. The fact of the matter is that Soriano is the straw that stirs the drink on this team. When he is going strong, the Cubs are a good offensive team, when he isn’t they struggle.
by JSB on Apr 22, 2010 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions 10 recs
rec'd
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
CAN I GET AN AMEN!
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Oooh - the faux rec
It means you have either been burned sarcastically or you need to hit refresh to see the ‘rec’ count go up.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Okay...
You want the Cubs to give back the win?
Start benching Soriano because you think Tyler Colvin Xaiver Nady will fare better against pitchers like Santana?
What is your point?
by IllinoisCubs on Apr 22, 2010 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Basically what you said. I think Soriano will fold up like a wet napkin against an elevated level of competition.
Not good in the playoffs.
by Jerry Mumphrey on Apr 22, 2010 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Long ways away from the playoffs – gotta get there first
by IllinoisCubs on Apr 22, 2010 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions
YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions
really?
you think Colvin and Nady would do better?
Really?
Soriano was overpowering yesterday. If he can keep doing that, it won’t matter who is pitching.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Good point, Drew. I will take those types of comments into consideration when I hear someone give Soriano a break when he fails against a really tough pitcher. As yet, I haven’t heard anyone give him a break when he strikes out against Santana or Carpenter.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 22, 2010 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions
I still recall a certain game against Milwaukee in 2008
Where he did pretty well against CC Sabathia.
Don’t get me wrong. It was frustrating when Sori did not show up for the playoffs in 2007 or 2008, and I wish that we had someone who did. However, it is very good news that we can continue to get good use out of him and his immovable contract.
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
I'm fine with it in the short term.
A meritocracy in the rotation seems fair, and Zambrano has been the most up-and-down starter in the rotation through two weeks.
Now, I’m not thrilled that the Cubs have an $18 million setup man, and I hope he gets back to the rotation sooner rather than later. But for now, I’ll give it a chance to work.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
The thing about a meritocracy
is that if you’re going to cite it, you have to be consistent. I don’t buy “meritocracy.”
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
I would agree.
Lou hasn’t always managed this way (see: Soriano, Alfonso. RE: leading off). It will be interesting to see if this keeps up this year.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I'd argue
that it’s too late to do meritocracy. Sandberg can come in and do meritocrac (if he has the support of ownership and the FO to bench contracts). Lou can’t because he hasn’t.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
I would largely agree with that.
Lou in 2007 (and 2008, to a lesser degree) was a meritocratic manager (see: Barrett, Michael; Kendall, Jason). Last year, he was more hands off.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
He might do it with certain players
He certainly doesn’t do it with the team as a whole
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions
You can't replace an entire team. You pick and choose your spots, IMO.
I would say Lou was late in pulling Soriano from the leadoff spot last year, which was to the team’s detriment.
He pulled the plug on Michael Barrett. Then he pulled the plug on Jason Kendall late in the 2007 season.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Not even 2007
For the first month, Cedeno was out-hitting Theriot and Pie was out-hitting RJ v. RHP.
But I don’t really want a one-month meritocracy, because fluky things happen in the first month of baseball every year.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
Usually Lou waits (too long in some cases)
In the sense that Zambrano has been up-and-down for a while, maybe it’s not a four-start sample Lou is using. Maybe it’s the 2009 season into 2010.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
short term
the key is short term. I doubt he’ll be down there very long. I feel it might keep him stronger for the late season, and possible playoff push if he’s only throwing half the pitches he was throwing as a starter. Remember, at the pace he was going, he’d never make it past the 6th. That taxes a weak bullpen as well.
"It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive." W.C. Fields
Trading Z?
When I called my husband yesterday to tell him the news, the first thing out of his mouth was “I bet they are planning to trade him.” I was like “huh?” Seriously, he thinks that they might be doing this to get him to waive his NTC or something. That this is being done in preparation for a BIG trade. IDK-my first thought was that putting him in the pen would devalue him, but the more I thought about it…it seemed reasonable enough to ask what you guys think.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
I had the same thought ...
but quickly dismissed it. Other teams won’t even be able to scout Z as a starter now, which will seriously lower his value — even if he pitches well in the pen.
I think the move is akin to Lou’s explosion in 2007. Now, there might have been other ways to give the team a shot in the arm — but given the team’s performance of late, I’m glad they’re trying something.
To DS’s point: The Cubs early this season have struggled because of the offense AND because of the bullpen. The difference is that the offense have good hitters who are struggling (Aramis, Soriano until recently, Theriot to a point) who have the capacity to recover.
The much ballyhooed youth movement in the bullpen, on the other hand, just might not be talented enough. Hence the need for a move/acquisition, as opposed to patience.
by elgato on Apr 22, 2010 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
the offense has good hitters
sorry, it’s early
I think that teams have enough information on Z as a starter
by this point that they don’t need to scout him as a starter. FWIW
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
Nice points, elgato
I agree with every word.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Apr 22, 2010 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
I have the opposite thought.
You don’t move to the ’pen the guy you want to trade. You keep in the rotation the guys you want to trade.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
yeah, like Gorzo ...
or (gulp) like Lilly, if the season goes to hell quick.
Exactly
This further raises Gorzo’s value & gives Z some rest (whilst temporally helping out the bullpen). Then we traid Gorzo for decent relief and put Z back in the rotation.
If the Cubs were an international soccer team they'd be called Scotland.
So far they have won every game since they put Z to the pen.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Apr 22, 2010 8:10 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
OH right demote Z to the bullpen so we can raise Gorzo's trade value
OK lets put Sori on the bench to raise Colvin’s value.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Indisputable logic
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
I believe Soriano's HR was his second this season...
but yeah, Sori is type of guy we need hitting the ball when Aram is ice cold like he is now. Good game for the Cubbies. If we can find a way to split the series tonight, I’ll take that…
Get 'em on, Get 'em over, Get 'em in!
This was the first time in I don't know how long
that I was actually excited to see Soriano come up to the plate-like he’s possibly starting a hot streak. It was great to see him hustle to third. Couldn’t help but wonder if the booing and/or media questions have actually helped him.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
Something certainly motivated him.
I can’t remember ever seeing him hustle like this. That triple was the most entertaining play of last night’s game. He even looks better, to me anyway, in the outfield.
One of Lee Elia's 15%
by waiting4cubs on Apr 22, 2010 8:21 AM CDT up reply actions
I wondered who took Sori
and where did they hide him. That guy that played last night looked like an all-star at the plate. Did the Mets not get the scouting report on how to pitch him that every team in baseball has? I hope this continues and the rest can follow his lead.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
It looked like
the home run he hit was on a breaking ball that was supposed to be low and away but instead ended up hanging of the inner third of the plate. Fortunately, Sori did exactly what good hitters should do when faced with a mistake pitch.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." -- Alvin Dark
I'm actually more excited with the hits to the opposite field.
Even his last at bat he got good contact to right. That means he is seeing the ball well, and is able to stay on it longer, allowing to crush mistakes like a good boy.
I don't know if anyone else noticed
but when he hustled out that triple, he looked into the dugout with a wide smile and made a little running gesture. As though to say, “hey look, you were right, I hustled and I got a triple!”
by cubsonWGN4ever on Apr 22, 2010 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
One quibble, Al
On what planet do you think Zambrano is going to give a damn about situational hitting? He hasn’t cared about at all in his career.
No, he’s going to continute to attempt 900-foot homers and we will have the added benefit of sitting for six innings before he tries.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Apr 22, 2010 8:21 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Good one, Worf. You even blast Z for a hypotheteical situation that
hasn’t even happened yet. I’m glad to seee that you objectivity is still in place when it comes to Zambrano.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 22, 2010 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Sorry, I've seen too many instances
of him trying to hit one to Naperville with a man on third and less than two outs.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Unlike the rest of this roster that is filled with guys who
always get the runner in from third with less than two out. So you are holding a pitcher to higher hitting standards than the hitters? Any offense you get from Zambrano is a bonus. Blast him for being a lousy pitcher, but it’s a bit disengenuous to expect him to do something our best hitters can’t seem to do on a regular basis.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 22, 2010 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions
No, my issue isn't that he doesn't get the runner in
My issue is that he doesn’t even care that the runner is there.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
If he tried to hit one to Naperville
he’d be trying to hit a monster foul ball. I get you though. The only time I’ve seen him try situational hitting was when he bunted, drove in a run, but pulled his hammy in the process.
BCB - We have our own dictionary!
The frick I know from Chicago geography?
Fine, he was trying to hit one to Mars. Nice, easy, and accurate.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Geography
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Wrigley Field faces North to East
You can’t reach Naperville with a fair ball.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Unless....
… you hit the ball ALL THE WAY AROUND THE WORLD and it lands just short of a complete orbit, in Naperville.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Don't be silly
Only Aaron could do that. Aaron Miles, that is.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
That could have happened in the Steroid Era
But not now with the vigilant MLB drug testing…
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Ted Lilly can will Naperville into fair territory by warping the time space continuum
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
I was at last nights game
And I want to mention Soriano is my least favorite player on the 25 man roster.
However, being there in person and possibly seeing him hit for the cycle was one of the most exciting things I’ve seen at a live game. Too bad nobody, and I mean nobody around me cared/realized history might have been made.
Yes and when he originally hit the fly ball in the 8th
I thought it was going to give him the double.
IMO
Silva has already surpassed <Name Redacted’s> contributions of last year. What a brilliant reclamation trade.
If Silva reverts back to his more recent self and ends up out of the rotation by June, he’s still given far more than I could have ever expected. I actually kinda like the guy…right now.
"We are not equations with hats." -Dean Young
This is the one thing lost in the angst over Z.
In what world would we have expected that Silva and Gorz would look like two starters you can’t take out of the rotation!
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
by DGU on Apr 22, 2010 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wasn't the plan when we acquired Silva to put him in the 'pen as a long reliever?
I still don’t see how this has changed. He’s been excellent to date but to expect him to keep that up is silly and foolish.
I’m not as angry as Doggie Stalker but before you need bullpen help, you need starters who will get you to a need for a bullpen. And I’ll take Zambrano 11/10 over Gorzellanny or Silva. If you don’t know what to do with them, trade them for relievers. I’m happy Zambrano is willing to do what he can but this can’t be good for the team in the long term.
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Right now, Silva is the most consistent member of the rotation
Followed by Dempster, Wells, Gorzelanny. Zambrano was the most up-and-down member of that rotation. In a true, merit-based system, he should have gone to the pen. I’ll give Lou credit for having the stones to make this move.
Now, long term, do I see Silva going to the pen? Sure. But for now, he’s earned his spot in the rotation.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Sorry, but that's silly
THREE starts. I give Silva credit for pitching out of his mind. But if you want credit or merit, look at the career numbers for both. Zambrano is still on this team for a reason. Silva was traded for Milton Bradley for another. It’s been less than three weeks. No way you can justify this season’s numbers with this small of a sample size
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
The Cubs are out to win now.
What players have done in the past, while a factor, is also a reason that Soriano and Theriot get put into the lineup on a daily basis, whether a detriment to the team or not.
Zambrano has been up-and-down since signing his long-term contract, so it’s not like this is a new development.
Frankly, I’m happy that the “No. 1” pitcher is being held accountable this year. Look, when Silva struggles (and I’m sure he will at some point), he goes back to the bullpen. Zambrano probably comes back to the rotation, maybe a bit humbled from it (though I doubt it).
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Exactly correct.
The Cubs have more capable starters than they can use in the rotation. Isn’t that a nice problem to have?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
And should Zambrano excel and one of the starters falter
There’s a guy in Double-A who is dominating right now in Andrew Cashner.
I would say the young Mr. Cashner has arrived at the house and will soon be knocking on the door of his first Major League call-up, whether that’s to reinforce the bullpen or enter the rotation.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I still think
Cashner should have started the season in the bullpen. He could easily have pitched out of the bullpen this season to get major league experience and then slide into the rotation next season.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." -- Alvin Dark
I would agree with that.
My biggest concern with young pitchers (starters especially) is their total innings pitched. I’d rather see Cashner in the pen this year (where he dominated in college), with an eye towards keeping him a starter long-term.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I just remember TLR
doing that with Wainwright (sp?) and it worked out pretty well.
Caveat – I am by no means insinuating that Cashner = Wainwright
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." -- Alvin Dark
Being held accountable...
for what, exactly? His one bad start in four attempts? If he had an ERA of 8 in June, sure, you’d have a little bit of logic. But he’s made FOUR STARTS.
He's being held accountable for 2 bad starts in 4 starts.
And it’s not like Zambrano has been a lights-out ace over the last three years. Let’s be honest, when he’s pitched in the last two years, you don’t know what you’re going to get, start-to-start.
Now that he’s going to the bullpen, everyone wants to react like Felix Hernandez is being sent to the pen. The Cubs most erratic starter is going to the bullpen, where hopefully he can harness his emotions and control and be a bridge to the 9th.
It’s risky, yes; but if Lou is managing this move based on merit, it’s the right move.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
So why isn't Castro up?
Theriot has been awful this year
Why isn’t Tracy starting every game?
Why hasn’t Grabow been cut? Or Shark?
OVERREACTIONS. It’s just too damn early in the year
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Excellent questions.
Cutting Grabow costs money. Samardzija should be sent down, and I would venture to guess that move comes Saturday/Sunday.
What has Tracy showed to demonstrate he should start over Ramirez, other than a willingness to roll over on ground balls? If he makes a spot start and goes 2-for-4, sure give him another one.
Theriot – God only knows. He needs to sit for a while. Or Castro will be up sooner rather than later.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
My point was that it's too early to make any rash moves
Other than Shark. He just sucks.
I think this is just too early in the year
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Understandable
But as a high school coach, I can understand the move. It looks to me like Lou is trying to instill a sense of urgency in this team. So far, they’ve coasted against what looked to be an easy schedule to the month.
By moving Zambrano, not only does it strengthen the bullpen, it shakes things up and gets the attention of the entire 25-man roster that things need to be picked up.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I'd like to see Aramis Ramirez sit out a game or two.
He’s obviously pressing. We need him to get out of his slump.
by Blue Heron on Apr 22, 2010 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions
I completely agree.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
well
he’s out tonight, apparently.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions
That's the news, anyway
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/2187946,CST-SPT-csep22.article
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Great.
So he’s going to start Tracy against one of the toughest LHP in baseball.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Better to put a guy out there who might hit...
… than a guy who can’t seem to hit anything lately. Tracy needs playing opportunities, too.
by Blue Heron on Apr 22, 2010 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Rami
isn’t hitting ANYTHING. He looks completely off. He needs to sit. Maybe Lee will bring it up a notch, and you’ve been complaining Tracy hasn’t started.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
I think that you have to understand the business side of baseball here a bit
Castro would likely qualify for Super 2 status and be arbitration eligible after 2 years if called up now. If the Cubs wait until June 1 to call him up, then they will get 3 years of non-arb time from him. i.e. He won’t qualify for arbitration until 2013 and won’t be a free agent until after the 2016 season. When you are dealing with a potentially very good player, you need to understand this when looking at a potential call up.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
I agree. You can't replace the entire 25-man roster.
If Theriot isn’t hitting by Memorial Day, I can see Castro getting the call on June 1.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
As I have stated before, a large market team like the Cubs shouldn't be
worried about that. This isn’t Tampa Bay. If Castro is the best SS in the orgaization, he should be on the big league roster NOW. Arbitration clock be damned.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 22, 2010 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Not necessarily
He is very, very young. There is such a thing as minor league seasoning – even if he is the best SS in the system.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
I wish someone could have heard about thie "minor league seasoning"
When it was Shark’s turn a few years ago.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Should read "this minor league seasoning".
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions
That would have been nice.
Hopefully it’s in the Manual now, along with instructions about not immediately placing a signee on the 40-man roster.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Yes, necessarily. If he is your best option, then he should be
in Chicago and not in Daytona. You can quibble about whether he is the best option, but if he is your best, things like age and arbitration clock shouldn’t matter. The Cubs don’t have to squeeze every dollar out of there payroll. That’s obvious by the players that they have signed. Yes, he’s young, but if he is the best in the organization right now, he should be playing tonight against the Mets, not the Sarasota Seashells or whoever they play down there.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 22, 2010 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
But when 1 month
may cost you $10 million, you might want to stop and think about that. Its one month. How much is the increased win share from Castro over Theriot in one month? 1 win would be a TON in a month. So you are potentially paying $10 mm for less than one win? I think this combined with an extra month in the minors and seasoning means we won’t see Castro until after June 1. And I think that is the right decision.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
The point is that major market teams don't think that way. They
don’t really have to. Do you really think that the Yankees or the Red Sox care about arbitration clocks? I think that the reason Castro is not with the big club is that there are concerns about his defense. That is what is keeping him in Daytona, not an arbitration clock.
If Castro is as good as projected, major market teams don’t care about the arbitration money. If Castro pans out, they don’ mind paying him what he is worth. They have the money and realize they can market the guy and get a return on the investment. You can’t do that in Tampa. Your market is limited by size. New York and Chicago don’t play by those rules. If Castro pans out, the Cubs can make a ton off the guy. They know that and won’t delay bringing him up if he really is ready.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 22, 2010 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Nitpick.
Castro is in Tennessee, not Daytona.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Thanks, Al. Don't confuse me with the facts. I'm on a roll. The
next thing you know, I’ll mention how the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 22, 2010 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Those kraut loving jerks!
Good thing we dropped the bomb on them
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Apr 22, 2010 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions
I hope you smiled when you wrote that
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
by eths on Apr 22, 2010 11:00 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Nothing Personal ETHS
But I am Jewish…
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Apr 22, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
So too
Is Al.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
The original line was from "Animal House".
I don’t have a problem with that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Jeez how did I miss that
I’m a zit. Get it?!
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Apr 22, 2010 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions
uh...
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions
I abhor what happened during the 30's and 40's in Germany.
If you can make jokes about dropping the bomb on kraut loving jerks then surely a man in a stereotyped Viking carnival (Mardi Gras) costume asking if you smiled, can’t be considered wildly off base.
It was not my intention to offend.
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
you'd be surprised at what people can be offended by
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
make me, you ball hawking jerk!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions
I would but I was raised never to hit a girl avatar...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
touche...
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
LOL!
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Those are sunglasses!
Peg-leg!
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
No I wasn't offended
Just having some fun :P
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Then we're cool?
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Idk dude
Something about you just oozes evil :D
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Evil? Who? Us?
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
EEP
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Oh it got cut off :(
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
My vileness pays of at last... heh heh heh
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Grrrr
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
I'm offended by people having fun.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions
As you should be
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
wait, but wasn't it the Japanese that dropped
the bomb? I don’t remember reading anything about the Americans dropping that type of bomb on the Germans in school
by braziliancubsfan on Apr 22, 2010 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions
wait, but wasn't it the Japanese that dropped
the bomb? I don’t remember reading anything about the Americans dropping that type of bomb on the Germans in school
by braziliancubsfan on Apr 22, 2010 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Not sure if you're serious or not....
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Apr 22, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
PS this is the only shirt I wear
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Apr 22, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
OT-seems an entire sub-thread got deleted.
I can see I got a reply on my profile, but I can not read it. So if I was supposed to respond to you, I’m not being rude.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Apr 22, 2010 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
It all branched off the abortion remark, which was deleted.
Here’s something I said to musicdude (which has since been deleted).
Everything that branches off a reply to the abortion remark is deleted. Your conversation with rhymenoceros was taking place as that remark was deleted, then the strange "reply fail" occurred (which was actually no reply fail—that sort of thing happens when comments are deleted).
This is why rhymenoceros’ "Yes sir" remark appeared to start its own conversation. And then, the same thing happened with katie casey when she replied to your comment.
In fact, this all started with [the] abortion remark. You did nothing wrong.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
thanks Vermont
I hope it was nothing I said.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Apr 22, 2010 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
No,
It was the remark about abortion. That was the one that was deleted, and once it was purged, all replies to it disappeared.
Even yours. The only thing you did is reply to someone whose comment was part of that sub-thread, so it relocated when the abortion sub-thread was deleted.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions
no, it's the comment that you made to
willie mays hayes gloves that i got confused on.
by braziliancubsfan on Apr 22, 2010 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
I was kidding
I know the US dropped 2 bombs on Japan
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Apr 22, 2010 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
This notion...
that Zambrano has been a bad pitcher this year has to got to stop. Take away that awful Opening Day start, and his ERA is a flat 4.00. I’ve got news for you — that’s above average.
Great - a 4.00 ERA.
That’s still the worst among the 5 starters this year (and I would say a 120 pitch outing in 5 innings is a bad start, too).
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
so are we going to rotate who goes t the pen and who is in the rotation
on a weekly basis based on who has the higher ERA?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Now that would be intriguing
In all seriousness, Zambrano deserved to go the pen. Over the course of the first three weeks of the season, he was the Cubs’ most inconsistent starter.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
THREE WEEKS
CARLOS SILVA HAS AN ERA UNDER ONE
This will not remain the same at the end of the year. You can’t make these decisions based on three weeks of a 6 month season. You just can’t
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
But his troubles will magically disappear when he pitches in the 8th?
I just don’t see the logic in the argument that the guy you least trust as a starter right now is the best solution to a bullpen you don’t trust.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
That's the million dollar question, IMO.
If Zambrano can harness his emotions and be able to let it fly for 1-2 innings, he’s an asset. If he mopes, then nothing is fixed.
Frankly, right now, I’m willing to give it a chance. I think that aggressive (sometimes over-aggressive) mentality that Zambrano has can be an asset in the bullpen.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
THANK YOU
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
but we cant
look at that, now that Lou is doing something that we dont like Zambrano is the greatest starter ever, seriously, hasnt he won like 15 straight Cy Young’s? Plus we need to start Colvin over Soriano regardless of what Soriano gets paid but we cant have an $18 million reliever.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
Man, I swear to god we can't go five minutes on this site without a strawman argument
Can you please find where anyone has said anything remotely close to “Zambrano is the best pitcher ever”?
Zambrano is a good, but not great starting pitcher and the move is still not a good one
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Boy, that's funny,
coming from someone who has a reputation of trolling with strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Apr 22, 2010 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions
I find that funny coming from you
since you’ve twice now attacked me in this thread alone.
Also, please find where I’ve used a strawman argument comparable to the one he used.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions
sorry if it didnt come across
but I was using a tad bit of sarcasm…many people on this site have complained that Lou is trotting Soriano out there because of his contract and we shouldnt do that (I agree with this setiment) but then come back with Z being paid way to much to be a reliever…
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
God I know...
Gorzellany has been lights out this year. Oh, wait, what’s that? He’s pitched 9 innings?
SAMPLE SIZE. And by your logic, Aramis Ramirez should be riding pine right now, right?
No dude, he should be in Iowa
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
There isn't a logical replacement for Ramirez
Though I’d like to see Tracy get a start or two to give Ramirez a breather.
Gorzelanny was solid in his first start and took a liner to the shoulder. I would have thought he would have been the one to move to the bullpen, honestly, once Lilly returned.
But I can understand why Zambrano got sent there.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on Apr 22, 2010 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure I can.
Starting pitching has been this team’s strength. With Lilly back, you have excess strong starting pitching.
By moving Zambrano to the pen, you (hopefully) bolster a weak spot.
There is no strong replacement for Ramirez. There isn’t. So you’re willing to weaken an already weak spot because Ramirez isn’t hitting?
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
If Tom Gorzelanny is serving as the replacement for Zambrano
I don’t how you can say that Chad Tracy isn’t a replacement for Ramirez, at least until Ramirez starts hitting.
It would be hard for ANYONE to be as big a black hole of offense as Ramirez is right now. I find it hard to believe that if Tracy got two or three starts in a row, that he would be hitting .130
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Wait...
So Gorzelanny is a “strong replacement” for Zambrano, but Chad Tracy/Jeff Baker aren’t strong replacements for Ramirez? Seriously?
Note: I am in no way advocating either of those two to take over at 3B.
great minds...
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Indeed.
This makes three of us.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, I was thinking more Lilly replacing Zambrano, to be clear
And I do think Ramirez needs a couple days off, if nothing else to get Tracy’s bat in the lineup. And if he hits, find more ways to keep him in there.
And if Gorzelanny gets lit up in the next couple starts, it’s pretty easy to flip him and Zambrano.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
But it's not a choice of...
Lilly or Zambrano. Lilly has always been targeted for the rotation.
Clearly someone had to go to the bullpen. Z, Demp, Wells, Gorz, or Silva. Logically, the choice came down to Z (obviously), Gorz or Silva. So, yes, it is a matter of choosing Gorz (and Silva) as “strong replacements” for Zambrano.
Fair enough.
In all honesty, I would have been fine with either Gorzelanny or Zambrano heading to the bullpen.
I think Lou used Zambrano, in part, to send a message to the team and shake things up. Which I think this team needs, too.
And if/when Gorzelanny struggles, or winds up on the DL with a contusion, Zambrano will be back in the rotation. And I hope he throws well, in either case.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
So you think Chad Tracy will have a worse BA than Ramirez?
Aramis looks lost, a couple of days off may be the best thing that can happen to him.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions
Check the rest of the league stats and you will find a lot of good pitchers
with an ERA over 4 right now. It’s way too early to use that stat as a barometer on how well a guy is pitching right now. As we can see, one bad game can blow ERA way up in the air.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 22, 2010 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions
I wasn't using it.
It was brought to me as evidence as to why Zambrano should still be starting. Any way you cut it, he’s been the Cubs’ most inconsistent starter this season.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
everyone wants to react like Felix Hernandez is being sent to the pen
You mean the guy with the career era a whopping .15 less than Zambrano? My biggest beef with this whole discussion and move is that people don’t appreciate how good Zambrano is. Sure, his inconsistency can be maddening, we want him to grow up, and we can fight over whether he’s an “ace”.
By my quick look, since 2003 Zambrano has finished in the top 15 of league era 4 times.
For me, the most frustrating thing about this whole move is that it looks like the Cubs made some sort of snap decision with one of their most valuable assets. I know we aren’t privy to all internal discussions, but to the fans it sounds like this decision was made this week—where’s the thinking about the long-term effects, both in performance and trade value, of one of the team’s most important assets?
you only think it was a snap decision becuase they didn't consult you first.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
absolutely not
is there anything about this that feels well thought out to anyone? Instead it seems more of “what do we do now?” type thinking, not part of a long-term use of one of the team’s biggest assets.
Demoting the opening day starter on April 21 is, ipso facto, a snap decision.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I appreciate how good Zambrano has been
But he’s been up-and-down over the last two years – I can understand why the Cubs made the decision they did.
I don’t think it’s a long-term move, but rather, one designed to shore up an area of weakness for the time being, whether that’s until the Cubs make a trade or call up Cashner or whomever.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Right
Lou has always professed to be a “what have you done for me lately” manager. He plays the hot hand. Now I understand that with pitchers it is a little different, but Lou likely wants to play the hot hand and Silva is exactly that right now. The way things have shaken out so far this season, Silva starting a game gives us a better chance to win. Until that changes I am very happy trotting Silva out every 5th day and putting Z in the bullpen.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." -- Alvin Dark
by gwood on Apr 22, 2010 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Did you see Z's last start?
2 ER, 9 k’s is pretty impressive IMO. A team should score more than 2 runs off Mike freakin Pelfrey
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Very true
But have you seen everyone of Silva’s starts so far this year? He has only given up 2 ER total.
I don’t fault Z. Our offense has been nothing short of atrocious. But Silva has the better numbers so far this year (and yes I know it has only been 4 starts).
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." -- Alvin Dark
Can't jump the Shark on Z
Silva has been impressive. Mark my words, it won’t last. Even if Silva was bad, I would say give him a few more starts. At the end of the day, it’s still April
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Agreed
I don’t think that Silva’s hot streak will last either, but we might as well take advantage of it while it is occurring, don’t you think?
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." -- Alvin Dark
So send Gorz to the pen
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
That would give us
four lefties in the pen. That would seem to be too many, plus Gorz is pitching well too and he is likely our best trade chip (as others have mentioned). If he can continue to pitch well from the rotation, he could bring us a relatively good bullpen arm.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." -- Alvin Dark
Pitching is pitching
I don’t care if we have a one legged guy who only will pitch on Thursdays. If he gets outs, he gets outs. Too much is put on match ups. If we have all lefties and they get outs, who cares?
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
+1
The whole lefty/righty thing annoys the heck out of me. If a pitcher gets outs or a batter hits, I don’t care which way they bat.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you VCF
Same with hitting. It’s smart to play numbers but at the end of the day, I’m going to take the best hitter, not the best matchup
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
I think it's different with hitting
There are a lot of lefty batters who are simply baffled by lefty pitchers.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions
True
But my statement of take your best hitter still holds true
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Here's the problem
Lou might profess to be a “what have you done for me lately” manager, but he doesn’t actually manage that way.
Starting now, and ONLY in this situation sends a ton of wrong messages
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Silva would not be good in the bullpen right now
He has a little problem with his shoulder. And he is adjusting to a new league.
The plan was this:
1. Lilly gets healthy.
2. Silva or Gorzelanny are mediocre as a starter at lest.
3. Silva or Gorzelanny go to the pen.
The pen needs a RH set-up man and Zambrano is a better fit for that right now over Silva.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
God forbid Lou plays the hot hand
Calls audibles and reacts to the situation in front of him
by IllinoisCubs on Apr 22, 2010 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Z to the bullpen is still nonsense.
Doesn’t really matter how you try and spin it. You don’t do something this drastic after 15 games. Unless you’re off your rocker.
And yeah, Soriano legged out that triple. But he still runs like he’s in pain. There’s simply no way you can convince me otherwise. I wonder what percent healthy he would say his legs are.
Follow me on Twitter: @brandonrifkin
by Schwa on Apr 22, 2010 8:25 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't know how you put your staff ace
in the bullpen after what, 4 starts? Mercy, talk about small sample size. This reminds me of the Bulls benching Tyrus Thomas after coming back from his injury. Has Zambrano ever even pitched out of a bullpen before?
This is not early panic, it’s continued disgust with a situation we didn’t like to begin with. - Grinder in Training
Not since he was a rookie IIRC
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Problem with your argument
It’s not a punishment, at least for his performance. He’s the sacrificial goat.
If you don't think Z sees it as some sort of punishment or statement
then I’ve got a bridge in brooklyn for sale.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Zambrano was a reliever when he came up
His 1st win was in relief in 2001. He last pitched in relief in 2002.
See the Cubs 2010 schedule (now with game times & TV Schedule) at http://cubsbythenumbers.com/sched2010.html
Also see what old Cubs Scorecards looked like at http://cubsbythenumbers.com/scorecards.html
Soto's walks
How much value do Soto’s walks have when he is batting in front of the pitcher and Ryan Theriot?
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
not much
kinda makes it a bit more impressive though… from a patience perspective. I’d maybe give it another week (after a week not-so-filled with LHPs) and see about moving Soto up in the lineup… maybe in front of Lee.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Apr 22, 2010 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions
This is a good point
Soto is the most likely batter to take a strike three pitch too. I’d consider putting him in the No. 2 or No. 3 spot if Aramis is going to continue struggling
by IllinoisCubs on Apr 22, 2010 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions
No doubt in my mind that Z can add value to the bullpen
I know, I know… at this point, who couldn’t? But regardless of its current ineptitude, I do see where he can light a fire under the other relievers, perhaps take some of the attention away from their struggles, etc. etc. There’s some lemonade to be made here if Z chooses to do so.
But what I still haven’t seen yet is any kind of credible argument that the rotation is not significantly damaged by this move. Unless I’m missing something, Gorz and Silva both have to outperform what we would normally expect from Z during the duration of this move. And if the only argument you have is “well look at what they’ve done so far”, I’m sorry but that’s not filling me with lots of confidence.
This is a gamble; a move fraught with peril. All I ask is that those who are cheering it, also acknowledge its riskiness.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Apr 22, 2010 8:30 AM CDT reply actions 10 recs
I'll agree with you...
…. that this is a bold move with obvious risks. I also think it could have considerable upside.
Let’s see how it plays out before we condemn it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You ask
You ask that we see how it plays out before we condemn it, but it seems that you are already praising it before seeing how it plays out. Fair is fair.
You can't see the difference?
Condemning something before it’s happened — why is that good?
All I ask is for people to see what happens first.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
About the move
I will wait to see how it plays out.
That being said, I don’t think it was a good move, but I will see what happens before I praise/condemn it.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Sure there's a difference between praising and condemning
but regardless of which action you emote, you’re still doing it before it’s happened.
It’s called being consistent. If you’re okay with praising something before it happened, you ought not to have a problem with somebody taking the opposite viewpoint, i.e. condemning it before it happens.
Likewise, if you’re cautioning people to not condemn something before it happens, you ought not to be praising it before the fact as well.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Apr 22, 2010 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
Rec'd.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
ayup.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Um, no.
Because condemning this before it happens is the sign of a closed mind.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
No, I'm open to the possibility that this could fail.
It appears to me that the people who think it will fail, aren’t as open to the possibility that it might succeed.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Speaking just for me:
I don’t understand how it CAN succeed. As in, what defines success?
Best case scenerio, IMHO? Gorza & Silva pitch awesome for the season. Z does good job in relief, nailing down 80% of his relief appearances.
So that happens. Did this work? Is “awesome” for Silva & Gorz THAT much better than Z’s average? Over a whole season? Maybe.
Awful early for the Cubs to be playing the ‘maybe’ game and going straight to the “go out a limb, whats the worst that can happen” playbook.
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
by Allie on Apr 22, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
And you don't think the reverse of that is true too?
i.e. people who think it will succeed aren’t as open to the possibility that it might fail?
I can’t decide if I would have loved or hated to have been your Logic/Philosophy professor in college. Probably both…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
LOL
Never took those classes in college.
I am definitely open to the possibility it might fail. I don’t see that from “the other side”. No, instead I see words like “idiotic” and “stupid” attached to a lot of those posts.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
true, but
most of the posts in favor of the move have a “Zambrano’s always sucked anyway, I’m glad the overpaid crybaby is getting embarrassed” tinge to them
That's not how I feel about it.
Z’s a good pitcher. Z will help the bullpen. And eventually, Z will return to the rotation; hopefully, after helping win a few games.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
well, that comment is certainly a sign of a closed mind
Saying “I don’t think this is going to work” is the sign of a closed mind? That’s utter nonsense of the highest order.
Saying “It’s not going to work and there’s nothing that can change my mind!” would be a sign of a closed mind.
Seriously dude, the depths you are willing to go to, to defend this move is getting laughable
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Should we bench Aramis Ramirez for Chad Tracy?
Because condemning this before it happens is the sign of a closed mind.
After all, we should keep an open mind to these things. We might be better with Aramis on the bench. We have no way of knowing until we try!
Re
It depends on what motivates one’s response.
If one’s response is predicated on predicting the outcome and then reacting to that prediction, then there’s a problem. In spite of various degrees of self-assurance, no one knows how any given decision is going to pan out.
If, OTOH, one is responding to the foundation and/or process of that decision, then the response is dealing with what is.
In this particular case, my reading of the reactions splits largely between those who support it because they agree with the thinking they see behind it and those who disagree because they predict a negative future. Those two responses aren’t two sides of the same coin, and thus don’t demand consistency.
I’ll just add here that Lou Pineilla might just know a tad bit more about the Cubs’ current situation – and baseball in general – than all the various posters who are so incredibly sure of their prognostications of doom. Let’s see what happens between now and June 1, and what further adjustments to benefit the entity known as the team are made.
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"Gorz and Silva both have to outperform what we would normally expect from Z during the duration of this move"
and what if Zambrano is moved backed to the rotation right after one of them has a bad start or two?
by IllinoisCubs on Apr 22, 2010 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions
The danger here
is that every starter is looking over his shoulder wondering if one bad start will end up with them in the bullpen.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
If that happens, then it's just more evidence that this organization is flailing wildly.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Or sure, it's risky
but I think the upside is better than taking another chance on another pitcher on the scrap heap, wasting more money on them. We’re already spending a ton of money as it is, might as well try and get SOME value out of that in the interim.
But yes, it’s a gamble.
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by Craig in South Bend on Apr 22, 2010 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
It’s a motivational move by Lou and Z is being a good soldier about it, for now anyways. Cashner is probably up within the next month, but they need someone until then.
Ultimately this is on Hendry. To make a trade for an actual right handed set up guy, one of the top prospects is going to be involved. We’re looking at another trade similar to Garland for Karchner.
by Northside Matt on Apr 22, 2010 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions
do they really?
many people are equating the move as slilva > zambrano and gorz > zambrano, so they have to outperform z. isn’t this move more of a lilly > zambrano and silva and gorz have to outperform your average 4th and 5th starter? gorzellany and silva don’t have to match or do better than zambrano’s historic numbers. they just have to be better than most other team’s 4th and 5th starters. if this is the case about outperforming the other guy, then marshall should be in the rotation over wells and probably gorzellany.
Add Lilly to that list
I really like the guy, but why should he be granted a rotation spot since he is coimng off an injury. Not that I would recommend that either should be in the bull pen, but certainly of the two, it would make more sense to have LIlly in there at least until he gets his feet wet.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 22, 2010 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Lily does not strike me as a potential RP
Even in the future I believe his role is more suited as a SP compared to a RP. He is a strike out pitcher, but Lily does take some time to warm up.
I think it is a bit dubious to try to gauge how a pitcher will be once he is moved.
Sure, Lilly may take time to work in, but that may be because he’s preparing to throw 100+ pitches. You might see a different approach if he was a reliever. If memory serves, this was one of the criticisms of Kerry Wood moving to the bullpen. At least for the Cubs, that worked out pretty well.
However, that still doesn’t address how Zambrano wouldn’t be effected by the same thing. Again, I’m not advocating that Lilly should be in the bullpen, just that it makes at least a tiny bit more sense than Zambrano being there.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 22, 2010 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Z to the pen...
is akin to the Cards moving Pujols to the bench because their bench sucks.
Great game to watch last night. I loved seeing Soriano bust ass on that triple. Nice to see Colvin with that solid double off of the lefty as well.
by kanderber on Apr 22, 2010 8:31 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
So was that Z thread a record for amount of posts?
It broke my internet explorer. Couldn’t open it at all this morning.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
It definitely broke the record for the first two hours.
Over 800 posts in the first two hours.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It would have broken internet explorer on the work computers yesterday.
However, it opened just fine when I used Firefox.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm on my son's firefox right now. :)
My explorer can’t keep up with BCB today.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
Lou's Move of Z to the bullpen has obviously worked!
Our run production increase since the switch has been insane!
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by digitalbenjamin on Apr 22, 2010 8:34 AM CDT reply actions
One other thing about the game last night I think needs to be mentioned.
What the hell is Lou doing with Tyler Colvin? He gives him just his second start in 12 games, and it’s against a tough lefthander. Lou won’t even play the third year veteran Fukudome against lefties, but Colvin, with all of 14 at bats this season is perfectly okay to be in that lineup?
That first at-bat with runners on the corner early in the game where Perez basically made Colvin his girlfriend had me furious. And not at Colvin. I’m glad he got a hit later in the game, and I’m glad that at-bat didn’t turn out to be game changing, but at the time it certainly was.
That situation right there is the kind of situation I can point to when I say that Lou puts this team in position to fail. They overcame it, but it was in spite of his managing, not because of it. And I’m trying to figure out if he’s actually TRYING to hurt Colvin’s development for some reason, or if he’s just that inept.
Now that I’ve said my piece and someone will surely call me nothing but negative, I was extremely happy to see Soriano hitting like he was last night. And Silva continuing to pitch the way he has is just mind boggling. Hopefully we can get a winning streak going, but Santana versus Gorzelanny screams mismatch to me.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
You & I don't often agree.
But I wondered why Colvin was in there vs. a tough LHP too, after sitting against Pelfrey.
Maybe Lou wants Colvin to be able to hit lefties. I can’t think of any other reason.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Maybe Lou should give Colvin the opportunity to hit righties first
You know, more than once every two weeks. This was a dumb, dumb move really no matter what the rationale.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Again, I agree with you
Right now, it really feels like Colvin is being Pie’d.
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by Craig in South Bend on Apr 22, 2010 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Which is strange, because...
… Lou never praised Pie the way he praised Colvin in spring training.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Lou's managing of the last two games
is very questionable. Al you made a great point that starting Tracy yesterday would have been a good idea against the only right handed pitcher we were facing in this series and Lou doesn’t make that obvious move. And he follows that by starting a left-handed hitting rookie against a tough left-handed pitcher. These moves make no sense to me.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." -- Alvin Dark
His questionable managing goes back A LOT farther than two games
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Lou couldn't start Nady because yesterday was a "maintenance" day for him
so you’re looking at either Dome or Colvin vs. a tough lefty. Six of one, half dozen of the other…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I'm sorry, what does that mean?
the “maintenance day” thing, because Nady played later in the game
And it isn’t six of one, half dozen of the other. Colvin is just learning how to hit major league pitching. If you’re going to start a lefty against a lefty, you start Dome EVERY TIME
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions
what I meant by the "six of one..." comment is I felt it was pretty much a crapshoot between them.
I didn’t check his stats, but I get the impression from just reading BCB that Dome doesn’t do very well against lefties (hence the desire to find him a platoon partner like Nady). Meanwhile Colvin has no real track record vs. lefties at least in the bigs.
So experience (even if it’s bad) vs the unknown. That’s pretty much a crapshoot in my book. I’m not gonna hang Lou over that one.
Re: “maintenance” day… heard that on the pregame yesterday. Evidently Nady’s elbow was tender enough that Lou didn’t want to play him. But instead of saying he was hurt, they used this term “maintenance” day as if it were part of some prescribed rehab program, i.e. they’ve got a schedule where if he plays this day, he can’t play again until that day, etc.
That’s all well and good, but Nady’s previous game was on Monday. He had Tuesday off. So I don’t understand why Tuesday wasn’t his “maintenance” day. Needing two consecutive days off on a regular basis is going to hurt our OF flexiblity.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Perhaps
they can’t play him back to back and Lou wanted him in against Johan, figuring Colvin would fare better v. Ollie than Johan.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
makes sense
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
I still think Colvin over Dome is a bad choice if for no other reason
than Colvin isn’t even getting at-bats in the best scenarios available. Giving him his first start in over a week against a tough left hander is a bad idea.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Really I am shocked to hear that
Who would have thought such a thing before the season.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions
perhaps Lou is thinking
that if Colvin can hit lefties, they can move Nady?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
The only reason I can think of is that
Not all lefties struggle against lefty pitching. But I was one of those in the “Yeah ok Lou, you’ll give him three starts a week just like you gave Jake Fox playing time in September last year”. And it seems that that has come true. Gotta get him in the lineup more. If you want runs, SEE WHAT THE KIDS CAN DO before you do something drastic
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Morning after thoughts on Z to the 'pen.
Does anyone really think Lou Piniella believes Carlos Silva and Tom Gorzelanny are better starters than Carlos Zambrano? ballhawk puts it well above
Gorz and Silva both have to outperform what we would normally expect from Z during the duration of this move.
Except there’s another way to look at it.
Of our starters, we’re probably not willing to trade three of them – Zambrano, Dempster, and Wells. The remaining three are ones we either might trade at the deadline or may want to trade sooner rather than later – Silva, Gorzelany, and Lilly.
So, Silva and Gorz may not out-perform Z in the rotation for the next 2-8 weeks, but they might perform well enough that their trade value is high enough to acquire someone who makes up the difference. Does that make sense as an answer to the succinctly put question of bh?
So, why Z over Wells or Demp? For one thing, Dempster is the better starter, so you don’t bench him. Dempster is our ace. But why Z over Wells? I have a hard time understanding why Randy Wells doesn’t have to do what Sean Marshall has had to do.
It’s possible Wells is actually on the trade list, too. And it’s possible that we’re sending a message to Z. And it’s possible that the idea is Z’s durability will enable him to transition better and/or pitch more innings out of the ’pen than Wells.
So, I’m actually on board with the idea of keeping Silva and Gorz in the rotation, so long as we’re trying to keep up their trade value. And I’d think anyone who had concluded this was a sunk season anyway, should look at it the same way. But I’m not sure I get why it isn’t Randy Wells going to the ’pen.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
by DGU on Apr 22, 2010 8:38 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
I like what you're thinking here...
Hope Silva/Gorz pitch well and maybe you can trade one for a bullpen guy (although I’m not sure who’s going to take Silva’s contract)
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by digitalbenjamin on Apr 22, 2010 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Interesting angle (trade value)
I could definitely see Hendry thinking that way; Lou not so much. Which brings to mind another thought…
While I’m sure this was Lou’s “call”, I’m equally sure it wasn’t done in a vacuum. I’m sure Hendry had some input here. I’m curious though as to how much. That would have been one interesting discussion to be in on…
Lou: “Look, you keep asking me what am I gonna do. Well, look, this is what I’m gonna do, dammit. Now go find me a real god damn reliever.”
Hendry: “Easy there, big fella. You know I’ve always let you call the shots on the field. If you think this is the right move for the team, I’ll support you.”
Lou: “Alright then. Glad we got that straightened out.”
Hendry: “Just remember though – if this move blows up, it’s your ass.”
moment of silence as Lou’s eyes take on a most demonic look, followed by a low sinister chuckle…
Lou: “Ha. If this move blows up, it’s both our asses, and you god damn know it.”
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Apr 22, 2010 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The last time Lou coveted a reliever
He forced Seattle to acquire Heathcliffe Slocumb.
They gave up Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
unrec'd
for sad realism
Can we trade Lou for a reliever and call up Sandberg?
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
Granted, there's a reason Woody Woodward isn't a GM anymore.
If this move doesn’t work, and the Cubs keep circling the drain, I think Sandberg might be here around the All-Star break.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
so basically you're saying Lou has ALWAYS
been a moron. Why did we hire this guy again?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Lou said in the pregame interview on the radio
that this was discussed all the way up to the highest levels of the organization, and that they agreed, before he made the call.
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
I'm sure it was.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
And that's the point -
does anyone really believe that the entire Cubs organization thinks Gorz and Silva are both better pitchers than Z? We know Jim Hendry thinks Z is one of the best starters in franchise history.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
Occam's Razor, sadly, applies here.
We spent the better part of a decade watching Jim Hendry do silly things and saying “I’m sure it’s just the first step in a larger sequence of moves.” There was never any larger plan.
Now, at the end of the Hendry Era, I simply can not put stock into the idea that Hendry OKed this ridiculous move b/c he has some grand scheme that results in someone taking the Silva contract, or trading a valuable piece for a guy who was demoted and then dumped by the Pirates.
What this looks like is throwing BS at the wall to see what sticks, b/c the organization is finally running out of patience and the 25-man roster has been screwed up beyond the org’s resources to repair it.
I agree that moving Wells to the pen makes a lot more sense.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Occam's Razor does not apply.
We’re not arguing simpler v. complex. You’re arguing that Hendry and Lou are incompetent – and there’s no other way to put it. We’re not arguing now about whether JH is a bad GM v. an above average GM. Now we’re talking incompetence, and I’m suggesting that there might be reasons why a move that is OBVIOUSLY bad long-term might make some sense in the short-term.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
I think that this move is incompetent.
I don’t know that they’re both incompetent at their jobs – but this is evidence in that direction. I just don’t know how else to see it. It’s a personnel move that an incompetent GM would make.
So, for that matter, was the Felix Pie-Aaron Heilman sequence of moves. And, in my opinion, the decisions to trade DeRosa for minor league arms prior to the Cubs 2009 season, and to refuse arb to Kerry Wood.
The last 2 decisions, at least, fall within the realm of understanding. This Zambrano situation simply doesn’t. It’s wild flailing about from an organization that is finally coming to realize how badly it has screwed things up over the last 12-18 months.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Well, I've made a stab at possible reasoning
and the general gist of your response is, “But I prefer to see them as incompetent.” I can say this is response – “You’re not alone;” although they’re weren’t that many people before now who thought BOTH Lou and Jim are incompetent.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
I don't know that "prefer" is the gist of what I'm getting at.
I’m saying that, on the surface, this appears to be mind-blowingly incompetent. In fact – SO incompetent that the only rationalization for the move would be a grand scheme in which the Cubs are showcasing someone for a trade for a setup man.
And after all these years, I just don’t see Hendry as a “grand scheme” kind of guy. When we traded Pie, for instance, we all assumed it was part of a Peavy deal. It wasn’t. A few years earlier, we rationalized Hendry’s moves by assuming that it was part of a scheme to get Brian Roberts. It wasn’t.
So while I don’t “prefer” to think of this move as incompetent, if my choices are “They are incompetent” or “They have something awesome up their sleeves”, I reluctantly land on the former.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
It's not a "grand scheme"
to recognize that Gorz and Silva have to keep this up a few more starts before anyone buys in on them. And the articles on this have cited the idea that Hendry is still shopping for a reliever.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
well reasoned, as usual, DGU
It could have played out that way.
Why is it Z and not Wells? Wells has shown an uncanny canniness about pitching, and it is just his sophomore season. Maybe you don’t want to risk breaking that before the self-confidence is solidified (ala Rich Hill).
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
thanks
Yeah, I thought that was possible, but Wells doesn’t strike me as lacking confidence. It’s possible what’s struck me is wrong, of course. I’m just not sure.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
I didn't mean that Wells was lacking confidence
Because he exudes it. But I think that a thinking man like him still needs to build up a reserve of success, to remember and feed on when times get tough. It is still relatively early in his major league development, and that reservoir isn’t too big yet.
I trust people’s judgment on personnel issues a lot more when they admit to not being sure. This isn’t a physics equation.
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
I just heard Mets announcer Keith Hernandez on AM 670 interviewed about this series
He said both teams look flat…Mets lack talent but still hustle…Cubs on the other hand look uninspired and apathetic…thus leading to empathy for Brenly having to call these Cub games…Piniella “in the doldrums” and “the fire is gone”…and most interestingly he admitted that he thinks it’s going to be a long season for Met fans.
Hernandez
Keith Hernandez could not have been more annoying last night during the game. Between his in booth batting tips being shown instead of the game and his claim that Ryne Sandberg was overrated and he’d much rather have Craig Biggio as a 2B, I wanted to puke.
Any time a team is not hitting they always look flat. That's an easy assesment for any
announcer to make. Whenever a team is losing, they announcers say “They don’t want it bad enough” or “They don’t have the fire”. That’s ridiculous. Did the Cubs look flat last night? Did they look uninspired? When a team hits, they look good. When they don’t hit, they look bad. This isn’t rocket science. They guys are professional athletes. Of course they want to win. I can assure you that every memeber of this team wants to win as badly as the Phillies and the Yankees want to win. Don’t give me that crap about not being inspired or wanting it bad enough. It’s a bunch of crap.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 22, 2010 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions
He hit the nail on the head with that analysis
That’s exactly how these two teams look.
"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"
Pro and con --
I stayed out of the other thread because it was too big, but I’ve had a day to mull this. I am a major, major Zambrano skeptic. I think we will eventually view him the same way we view Sosa.
Having said that, here are the positive reasons for the move:
- Gives Zambrano a chance to go flat-out for one inning. He will not have the need to pace himself, which is a problem for him
- He will, in most cases, have a better defense behind him, which will improve his demeanor on the mound. Zambrano is the king of the “glare at the fielder for messing up” routine and you can’t tell me it doesn’t affect him on the mound.
- It takes the bat out of his hands. He has long been an overrated batter.
Now, the cons:
- Zambrano could very well go into the mother of all funks and be absolutely lousy at this.
- Silva and Gorz could very well be about 30 seconds from turning back into pumpkins.
- We’re talking about a guy who doesn’t hydrate or take care of his body when he has to go 120 pitches. Is he really going to be able to adjust in-season?
- It gives off a wave of panic and a WTF is Lou doing vibe in the clubhouse.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Apr 22, 2010 8:41 AM CDT reply actions 4 recs
Rec'd for interesting thoughts
Do you think it’s better to use Z flat-out for one inning, or to try and use him for multiple innings?
Doing the latter allows Lou to avoid the rest of his ’pen for an entire day and keeps Z stretched a bit more for the transition back.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
it's a horrible idea...
unless they’re pitching him in high-leverage situations. Multiple innings would be good (although not for the batting considerations Al stated), but it’s impossible to know what the limitations of this move are. We don’t know how he’ll adjust to having his premium stuff for 20 pitches in pressure situations or how he’ll do in back-to-back games. But if they’re just using him as a middle-reliever or mop-up guy, there’s absolutely no value to this move. Gorzelanny to the pen (heck even Lilly to the pen) made much more sense at that point given their left-handedness.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Apr 22, 2010 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions
I think ...
… the high-leverage situations are exactly where he’s going to be used, just as in the example I gave in the post.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
except, don't high-leverage situations usually come about pretty fast?
Is Z going to be able to warm up quickly enough to be the high-leverage fireman?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
He's going to have to.
If he can’t make this adjustment, he’ll go back in the rotation.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Lou's managed the Cubs for
3 seasons now, when have EVER known him to use a reliever in the right way?
What makes you think he’d start now?
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
by Allie on Apr 22, 2010 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
hooray for panic mode
…or at least acknowledging it. Losing 2 of 3 to Houston and praying for a split against a hapless Mets team… doesn’t get more panic mode than that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Apr 22, 2010 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions
If the "cons" of your post happen...
… Z will be back in the rotation.
In fact, from what I have read, the players were surprised, but not to a “WTF” level, nor a “wave of panic”.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Are they going to admit that they're panicing?
And quite frankly I find it hard to believe that there wasn’t quite a bit of WTF? going on when that move was announced.
And of course if the move doesnt work out Z will be back in the rotation. That doesn’t cover all the things that can go wrong BECAUSE of this move. That being, our rotation is weakened to the point where we lose a couple more games, Z is getting bounced around from the rotation to the pen…….
You act as though we can turn the clock back and start over if the move blows up in our faces.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Depends how long they let it go, doesn't it?
Look, no one knows how people in the clubhouse reacted, nor will we. Yes, I am sure they were shocked. Maybe that shock was exactly what this team needed.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The way we viewed Sosa?
This is a guy who moved to CHICAGO IN THE WINTER to work on his conditioning. Who is so mellowed I don’t recognize him.
This is a guy who cycles to Fitch Park to help rookies and even cooks for them.
If you want to question his numbers be my guest, but Z is a truly good person which somehow gets overlooked a lot due to his previous tantrums.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Because Z is a good teammate...
… he will do his best to make this move work.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Ryan Theriot is a good teammate too by all accounts
He has done his best to be a major league shortstop. He still isn’t one.
Being a nice guy does not in any way ensure this move will work.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions
His point is that Zambrano is supposedly on board with this
and wants to make the team better. Lots of anti-zambrano-to-the-bullpen people are kvetching about how Z is so nuts that he’ll blow up at the first given opportunity. This is an argument against that.
by cubsonWGN4ever on Apr 22, 2010 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Z: "I don't want to be a reliever. This is temporary."
Z is being a good soldier, because 1.) what choice does he have, and 2.) if his comments are to be believed, the org blew smoke up his ass about the situation.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Why is that assumed?
1) He most certainly does have a choice. The man is guaranteed his money and has 10-5 rights. And if he said he was being slighted, not many would disagree.
2) Why assume what Z was told isn’t true?
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
I'm sure he will...
but suggesting that because he cooks for rookies and lives in Chicago during the winter, etc, will in any way affect the long term outcome of this move is silly.
It very well may "work".
No one here contests that Z doesn’t have the talent to be a highly effective relief pitcher. The problem is that he would be a more effective starting pitcher and being an effective strating pitcher is more important than being an effective relief pitcher.
This is an inefficient use of organizational resources both from a talent and payroll perspective.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 22, 2010 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think his goodness as a person has been contested here
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Rec'd
And I totally disagree with Worf’s assumption that Z would go into a funk. Just the opposite – Z has a temper in the short-term, but a good attitude long-term.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
except for when he was talking about maybe wanting out of Chicago a few years back?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions
short-term
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
not a bad pro and con list....except
the part about the bat out of his hand. You’re saying we’re taking the bat out of his hand, but we are just giving it to another pitcher, I don’t see how this is a plus.
You could argue that Lou treats Zambrano too much like a hitter and alters the way he manages hitting pitchers when is comes to Z. I still don’t see it as a plus, I feel like Z is going to gain the Cubs more runs with his bat than he could lose them (with his bat).
Ditto for CNS
How is taking the bat out of his hands a pro?
Even if he is overrated, you aren’t comparing him to the average MLB position player. You are comparing him to the pitcher who is taking the at-bats he would have otherwise taken.
It should actually be a con because you are handing a significant number of Zambrano ABs (20? 40? 60? depends on how long he stays) to Silva or Gorz.
FWIW, career lines:
Z: .233/.240/.391/.631
Gorz: .070/.119/.070/.189
Silva: .121/.171/.182/.353
That’s a huge difference.
Something to make you laugh
Will the team change into blue uniforms when Z comes out of the pen?
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Apr 22, 2010 8:44 AM CDT reply actions 5 recs
LOL
Nicely done
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Nope, but they are considering adding a blue armband.
Players will keep them in their back uniform pockets just in case.
Like this:
"Look, what do you want me to do?"
The other part of this move to the pen for Z that baffles me
is that if it’s really not punishment, if it’s really just about making the bullpen better, why wouldn’t you move Dempster there? He’s only been back in the rotation for what? Three years? It’s been 8 since Zambrano pitched out of the pen.
No this is clearly some sort of statement to Zambrano, which is stupid anyway. Doing it after he pitched 6 innings, gave up 2 runs, and struck out 9 is just horrendously idiotic.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
Now this is where experience can weigh in
Dempster has been much more consistent than Z. Take out most of last year with the daughter issues
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Dempster at least can go 7-8 innings
Z can’t seem to get past 6, so to me moving Z to the bullpen is far more logical than moving Dempster, even if the only factor being considered is which player will make the bullpen better. I’m not one for wild, panic moves, but we can’t complain when mgmt/manager sticks with the status quo that clearly isn’t working and then also blast them for making a bold move. The fact is that there are only so many bold moves that can actually be made realistically – the only other ones that are somewhat reasonable include benching Soriano for Colvin and Theriot for Castro.
by BeltwayCubsFan on Apr 22, 2010 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions
If you've got to move one of the two, move Z
But I still say move Gorz or Silva
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
My guess is that Castro isn't coming up
until June 1. See above for business reason why. Arbitration and Super 2 status.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
Dempster vs Zambrano
Zambrano’s stuff prob works better in the pen than Dempster’s at this point. Regardless, Dempster has proven he belongs in the rotation with consistent performance. Zambrano regularly taxes an undermanned bullpen. When he doesn’t, he puts himself at risk for injury. You’re not giving up that many innings if he puts up three 2-inning performances per week.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Apr 22, 2010 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly correct.
You & I don’t often agree, but I see we are on the same page with this move.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Dempster is our Ace.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
OT:
Is something wrong with baseball-reference today? Their “team history” section apparently only contains the team’s record from the 2010 season.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 8:51 AM CDT reply actions
Yeah, I see that too.
Must be a temporary problem — I looked up some stuff an hour ago from years before 2010 with no problem.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You are officially off the reservation Al
Your scenario is laughable at best. You assume 1-2-3 innings with Zambrano and Marmol. Ha! Don’t forget Z’s walks and Marmol hit batters.
Zambrano has 3 SF in 571 ABs in his career. So saying this is a good thing b/c we can have his bat for insurance runs late too. Just like all of his pinch hitting last year.
And this is not what this team needs. It’s about the offense. What this team needs is for the people making money to pull their damn weight. It’s about Ramirez, Soriano, Soto and Fukudome not killing the lineup. We have the worst second baseman in the league in Fontenot who is a piece of crap. Where else does Fontenot start in baseball other than Triple A?
This team has been sleepwalking since April 2009. This is a sign of failure by the GM to provide a roster. Hendry should be fired and we know how much you love Lou. What’s the next panic move? Soriano to 2B?
One thing from last night's game.
Can we give Aramis Ramirez at least one day off? He was 0-for-5 last night, and his BA is now below .130.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 8:56 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
He also looked worse with every at bat last night
I’m really starting to believe that something is physically wrong. I’m getting a bit fearful that this is the Soriano situation of last year all over again, only with a shoulder instead of a knee
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions
I think it's just the opposite. I think he is healthy and he is confused at why he
isn’t hitting. It’s obvious that he isn’t seeing the ball well right now. When have you see him swing at this many bad pitches and strike out this much? He definely need a day off. The Cubs have a long stretch without a day off and he needs to sit. He is really pressing and doing things he has never done at the plate. The guy is completely lost right now.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 22, 2010 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
I truly hope you're right
It just seems so similar to Sori last year that I worry about it. Hopefully a day off will start to cure what ails him, and Lou is actually smart enough to give him that day off
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Ram
I wouldn’t be surprised to see a magical muscle strain or something appear for Ram. This way, he can get some time off, and swing through the minors to help get his eye back on the way to health.
by IowanInChicago on Apr 22, 2010 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions
he's sitting
today.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
So......Lou is once again putting in a lefty against a lefty
instead of sitting Rami the other day when they faced their only righty of the series.
Seriously, the man has no ability to plan or strategize.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Reverse Jinx
I rip on Alf and he goes bizerk. Most encouraging thing is he is going the other way with an outside pitch. That is the Soriano I remember a few years back.
Hopefully Aramis turns things around soon.
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 22, 2010 9:02 AM CDT reply actions
wait - shouldn't you be ripping on ARam instead?
words of encouragement isn’t going to help us in terms of the reverse jinx
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Okay here goes
Aramis is worthless and past his time. He was a terrible pick up. Error/Flyout/throw in the dirt START TRACY EVERYDAY.
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 22, 2010 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Hmm... not bad.
now we shall await the results…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Results !!!
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
I'm no math wiz
but hopefully this chart translates into .300/.350/.750? haha
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 22, 2010 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Is this a picture of "Asteroid"?
What a great game.
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
It's not that simple
;-)
"All of us are in the gutter...some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
This looks like a screenshot from an old computer game.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually I swiped it from a site dealing with new results from the Large Hadron Collider in CERN
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Been thinking of getting one of those for my garage
"All of us are in the gutter...some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
Yup, this is discussing the velocity and momentum
of those super duper atoms they’re shooting at each other. Those two little circles are where the primary collisions are and where the alleged black holes that will eventually eat us all would form.
by cubsonWGN4ever on Apr 22, 2010 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions
They are the strike zones
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Also while I may not like the moving of Z to the pen
I love that he is willing to do whatever it takes to try and help this team win. Guys always gives 110% and is a gamer.
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 22, 2010 9:06 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I like the positive attitude
But if he’s still in the pen in june or july, we’ll see what is attitude is then
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
True
or if Silva starts to go south. Hopefully they can trade for a good set up man.
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 22, 2010 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions
It's certainly doable
I don’t think getting Bell or a Bell equivalent is necessary. Just someone good. JC Romero, Gregorson, etc
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
They have enough guys
in the system to make is doable. Definitely.
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 22, 2010 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Proof this is a good move.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Apr 22, 2010 9:06 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Sorry, I agree with almost every word Phil wrote
especially the comment about it being a bad move, even if it works out IN THE SHORT TERM.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions
If the move works out, then what's wrong with it?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
See, that's what makes me a bit uncomfortable with it.
I remember signing some converted outfielder to an eight year, one hundred stupid million dollar deal with a full no trade clause, and people were saying, “If we go all the way, we won’t care.” But we didn’t. And now our team is weighed down by an underperforming LFer with a massive contract. Now we’re taking one of our strongest pitchers, a product of the Cubs farm system, and converting him on the spot because we can’t trade or promote a single relief pitcher. Again, “If the move works out, then what’s wrong with it.” The cost/benefit of this move seems to be disproportionate. If “the move works out,” which I would define as making a sizable improvement to the bullpen, then we will have swapped out one of our strongest pitchers for a relief pitcher. Assume what you will about the starting rotation, we essentially just traded a 2nd tier starting pitcher for an unknown bullpen arm. Now, if it DOESN’T work out, we will have screwed with the conditioning of a pitcher that already has issues with longevity. We will have altered the future value of Zambrano because of this bullpen stint, when we already have committed to paying a large sum of money for the next couple of years. In short, we risk reducing the long-term value of the Cubs rotation without changing the capital invested to cover the mismanagement of the team’s roster. I don’t like mortgaging the value of future teams to marginally improve a team with numerous question marks.
by Flatley on Apr 22, 2010 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
See, I put the "in the short term"
in all caps for a reason. In the short term it may work out. In the long term I doubt very much it will for a number of reasons, and as I said in another post, you act as though if it doesnt, everything just goes back to normal and there are no repercussions. I don’t think things work like that
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Then honestly Al, what is the point?
If this is being looked at as a short term move, what does it help? The other relievers suddenly figure out how to throw strikes because Zambrano was in the pen for a couple of weeks?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions
When I say "short term"...
… it could be a couple months.
What it does, as has been stated, is buy Hendry time to find another middle reliever.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Just where is he going to find the guy?
There are a bunch of teams looking for someone to prop up their bullpens.
by Blue Heron on Apr 22, 2010 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
True...
… but I still don’t see where they’re going to come up with Z’s relief pitching replacement. Watch him develop a spate of arm cramps…
by Blue Heron on Apr 22, 2010 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions
From the reaction of some people, You would think this move was made with irreversible crazy glue.
Why do I remember that Greg Maddux would ask Bobby Cox how many hitters he planned to carry in the playoffs? Because Maddux wanted to know if he would get a chance to relief pitch, in addition to starting. Didn’t hurt his career.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
And don't forget
Class acts like Orel Hershiser, Randy Johnson and Mark Buerhle, all of whom stepped up to pitch relief in the post-season.
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
which also isn't remotely relevant
for a number of reasons, the first being, they weren’t moved out of the rotation to do it.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions
and from the reaction of other people
you would think that if things go wrong, we get a do-over and there is literally no chance that there could be negative repercussions from this.
That’s a nice story about Greg Maddux, it isn’t remotely relevant to Carlos Zambrano
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Zambrano to the Bullpen!?!
And then probably back to the rotation!?! WTF!?! Who do we think we are? The Yankees and Joba Chamberlain??
{sarcasm}
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
do you really not understand where the differences in those situations lie?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think this is as dire as some people believe it to be
I was very surprised by the move but I do see an inkling of logic in it.
1. The bullpen has too many lefties in it right now. Moving Gorzellany to the pen does not fix that.
2. The bullpen needs a right-handed set-up man right now.
3. Zambrano has a good set of pitches for the bullpen.
4. Zambrano was even looked at as a closer in the minors.
5. Most important – It’s only April and things can change.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions
On the topic of Zambrano...
One notable thing about his career is that he has never had a significant arm injury of any kind. This suits him well as a starter, but perhaps it will also suit him well as a reliever if Piniella can give him a big workload, like 7 innings a week. People are quick to point out that the Cubs are shorting themselves all this money because starters give you 100 more innings over the course of a season but there is no rule saying this must be the case. The move by itself is already way out-of-the-box so I wouldn’t be surprised to see his usage equally out-of-the-box.
Will his arm adjust well?
I’m wondering if going out there more often will be a strain.
by Blue Heron on Apr 22, 2010 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Spent last night trying to make sense of the move.
I still don’t think it’s a great idea, but I can see how it could make some sense. Especially if it’s only temporary.
- The idea of bringing him in when a game gets close during the 7th, sure, I can get on board with that. And he doesn’t necessarily have to come out for a pinch hitter.
- Doing SOMETHING to shake this team awake. A few years back it was classic Lou vs. the ump ejection. This year, it’s Z to the pen.
- You have to either play to rebuild or play for the postseason. This, to me, is the strongest argument. The Cubs want to win this year. With Zambrano throwing fewer innings early, he has the potential to be stronger in September/October.
The trick is that these three factors have to line up to make sense. The Cubs have played a number of close games that have been lost by late-inning relief already, so that validates the first concern. Lou has had success waking teams up through his own actions, which addresses the second concern. And if the Cubs start winning those late-inning games they had been losing, we have a good shot at the playoffs (I think this division is wide-open). Less stress on Z’s arm is a strategy that could pay off several moves down the line.
Like I said, I don’t love the idea, but, as a temporary move, IT COULD WORK.
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
by Phubbies on Apr 22, 2010 9:15 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
At some point, I can see myself saying...
“Put Zambrano back.”
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
I don't think he'll be happy if they try to confine him there.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Apr 22, 2010 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions
My wife can quote the entire movie by heart
Plus she can cook and loves baseball…I got it made!
Sittin' on the ledge and sippin' Kool-Aid...
Well played, Ms. Casey.
Well played indeed.
"It's Spring Training. You know how many home runs Barry Bonds hit off me? One - in Spring Training." - Big Z
Starting Pitchers With A Higher ERA Than Zambrano (7.45):
Jamie Moyer – 7.50
Jon Lester – 8.44
Javier Vazquez – 8.27
Gavin Floyd – 9.00
Starting Pitchers with a lower ERA than Zambrano:
Ervin Santana – 4.35
Paul Maholm – 4.58
RICH HARDEN – 4.72
Carl Pavano – 4.96
Jon Garland – 2.86
Jeremy Guthrie – 3.15
I can go on
IT"S TO EARLY TO SAY ZAMBRANO HAS BEEN BAD THIS YEAR
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Apr 22, 2010 9:18 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
haha
Vazquez has never really impressed me and the Yankees made a big deal about getting him.
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by HolyBlackhawksBatman on Apr 22, 2010 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions
I am guessing you missed Marquis
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions
He's on the DL
And after the start against Milwaukee, his ERA is waaaay above Z. And he’s not a better pitcher than Z either
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Not surprised he is on the DL
Something was wrong with that start but most of the guys you have with higher ERA’s are not better than Z
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd say everyone except Moyer is
And I like Moyer a lot I’d like to have him on my team
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Apr 22, 2010 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
My two cents
Just so those that might be screaming that I don’t give No. 12 his due when he does well, here I am. And I wanted to point out that I thought his final AB in which he flew out to RF was the most telling, and perhaps most impressive of the night. He actually hung back and was on that pitch away from him which shows me he’s seeing the ball better and actually adjusting his approach to how he’s being pitched. Perhaps baby steps but a bit of an encouraging sign for him at the plate. I still don’t like how he plays the game but a job well done last night.
The only negative was Tyler Colvin’s baserunning in the 8th that cost the team a run. Memo to Tyler…with the bases loaded and less than two outs, you cannot hang back at 2B on a ball in the hole. He obviously forgot how many runners were on base, forgetting there was a guy on 1B after the walk to Theriot. Fortunately that didn’t come back to haunt them….but that kind of stuff has to stop.
As for Z…I don’t understand how this move is anything but positive. For a fan base screaming for the team to do something, anything in the bullpen, this move is logical and quite possibly a shot in the arm in the short run. As for Phil Rogers, when he takes his next AB in anything other than kitten ball, it will be his first. He’s a clown.
"When the day comes with that last winning run and I'm crying and covered in beer. I'll look to the sky and know I was right to think someday we'll go all the way." - Vedder
Correction
The walk wasn’t to Theriot…the hit throught the hole was by Theriot.
"When the day comes with that last winning run and I'm crying and covered in beer. I'll look to the sky and know I was right to think someday we'll go all the way." - Vedder
For the record, I have never screamed that the team should do anything
I’ve screamed that they should make an intelligent decision. I don’t think Z to the pen qualifies
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Z is in the pen
is an absolutely idiotic move. We’ll now get less than half the innings out of him. The fact that this move was even considered, let alone carried through, should mean pink slips for Piniella and Hendry.
The team ERA for the 8th inning is 10+
The inning has been a disaster and cost us multiple games. You want to keep throwing Grabow out there? Gorzo? I sure don’t. The move makes a lot of sense.
by BeltwayCubsFan on Apr 22, 2010 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions
yeah
Z’s first inning of work is ALWAYS awesome.
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
huh?
oh i see. You have decided because of his bad opening day outing that he’s a bad first inning pitcher. That outing aside, he’s given up 1 other first inning run this year so…try harder with some actual arguments backed up by fact.
by BeltwayCubsFan on Apr 22, 2010 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, keep throwing Grabow or Gorzo out there.
Are we really pointing to, what, 3 bad eighth innings as requiring this kind of ridiculousness?
The same people who spent all last year saying “Things are gonna turn around! These bad performances are only a small sample size”, are now universally lauding the decision to demote Carlos Zambrano after 4 starts, the last of which was pretty great.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
The thing that bothers me is what Z said
He wants to start in the playoffs if the Cubs make it. Well if this move of Z to the pen actually works good enough to get us to the playoffs, then I want Z to remain in relief. If we revert him back to the starting rotation for the playoffs, we are reverting to what we have found has not worked so far this season, and it would possibly be another dissappointing playoff series where the Cubs can’t win a single game………. . . . . . again.
If the Cubs are in the hunt for the playoffs
then we’ll have acquired a top reliever at the trade deadline.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
Still, could you trust Z
to go right back into starting games again? I would be afraid that moving him back could end up costing us precious games.
There could be issues here
which is another reason why I hope Lou uses Z for extended outings less frequently instead of as a straight 8th inning guy.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
Obviously Z doesn't actually call the shots
And if he is thriving in a new role, the Cubs made the playoffs, and everyone is writing about how Lou’s crazy idea actually worked, his tune might be different anyway.
by IllinoisCubs on Apr 22, 2010 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions
K, question to some people...
Everyone keeps saying small sample size. I’d really like to know when the magical moment happens when a small sample size becomes a not so small sample size. Zambrano averages around 32 starts a year. He has pitched in 1/8th of the games he could have started this year. He hasn’t done as good as he should have for his starts. We’re starting to hit the point where it’s not a “small” sample size. Also, of our 6 starters, I consider Zambrano the 4th best of the bunch. I have to put Dempster, Lilly and Wells above him. However, Z’s obviously the biggest name out of all of our pitchers.
So, our team’s massively failing throughout the first 10th of the season. You have to make a big move that will shock some life into the team. Expecting things to change after changing nothing is always a bad idea. So you make a big showy move that doesn’t affect the team as much as it looks like it does. Why does everybody hate putting our 4th best SP into the bullpen so aggressively?
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field? - Jim Bouton
I tend to find
that any player will have a bad month, even the best players. I start to worry when a player goes longer than a month w/o any signs of life or injury.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
Shock, Big Move, Shake Things Up?
Fine but maybe do something related to performance & need. Sit A-Ram down. The idea that the starting rotation is better WITHOUT Z or the bullpen suddenly great with him is absurd. This " well give it a try, we have to something" view drives me nuts. Lou can’t manage a bench or a bullpen and I am supposed to think this is a good move? We built a team for offense and sacrificed defense because that is what he wanted. How has that worked out? I have ZERO trust in Lou or Hendry for that matter. The Cubs still have a ton of talent . All I hope for now is limiting the damage. Gorzo gets shelled , some starter gets a minor injury that forces him on the 14 day DL. Anything to cut this horrible move short.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
We need another bet.
What should we bet on, regarding this move, for another Super Big Gulp?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Sittin' on the ledge and sippin' Kool-Aid...
by EalyEagle on Apr 22, 2010 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 8 recs
LOL
And yes, I really did laugh out loud.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Humbug
He did not even meet me for a drink in New York. I prefer Bogie.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Just had a most amusing thought...
It’s Thursday. We have more than 24 hours before Z “reports” to the bullpen. And three days before what would have been his next start. We also have some flexibility with Lilly coming back – he could go on Sunday and Wells could go Saturday on normal rest. So Z’s spot in the rotation doesn’t really have to come up until Monday – which is four days away…
Plenty of time for another “Cubbie-occurrence” to happen and Lou to change his mind. Plenty of time…
And man, wouldn’t that be a giant kick in the emotional crotch to all of BCB? All this outpouring of angst, anxiety, assurances, combativeness, giant f***ing fail images, and hopefulness for nothing?
The image of a deflating hot air balloon comes to mind…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
hmmm...interesting....wishful thinking?
That could be great fun.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Apr 22, 2010 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Don't you see what's going on here?
Lou is tired and wants to go home. He is sick of watching $20M bums be lazy and claim their entitlements day after day. Z is nothing more than a mediocre pitcher that brings along with him baggage on and off the field that degregates his performance on the field.
Lou, with this move, is simply saying that he has seen enough and he’s done. Quite an efficient way to paint a bullseye on his back, don’t you think?
Jack
derv
@themightycub
degregates?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Does my BCB credibility go up
now that the wacky and insane idea I had last week of moving Dempster to the bullpen was kinda-sorta picked up on by Lou & Hendry? Do I get a prize? At least a Big Gulp?
Sittin' on the ledge and sippin' Kool-Aid...
Oh well, my credibility certainly can't get any lower than it already is! LOL
Sittin' on the ledge and sippin' Kool-Aid...
or...
a greasy pork sandwich served in a dirty ashtray
bill paxton...
one of the most underrated actors of our time, yes?
No, Al wins.
His was the first I heard of this wacky idea. Actually, I think it was from him that Lou got this idea. I’m waiting for him to explain his “Al Yellon” name change surprise as being that he is now a special fan ambassador consultant to Lou.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Apr 22, 2010 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Katie, you actually have a very good idea
Al should be one of the Fan Ambassadors at Wrigley. Especially for the LF bleachers.
Sittin' on the ledge and sippin' Kool-Aid...
As long as he's not too busy
to write his recaps for us.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Apr 22, 2010 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Here's your major award.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Apr 22, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cool "Christmas Story" Trivia
The neighbor, “Swede”, who starts talking to Ralphie’s dad on the street is actually the film’s director (Bob Clark).
Sittin' on the ledge and sippin' Kool-Aid...
Poor guy was killed a couple years ago
in a car accident in Malibu.
Sittin' on the ledge and sippin' Kool-Aid...
Did you know the street scenes(the exterior of the house/yard,etc.) was filmed in Cleveland?
Hence calling the street “Cleveland St.” It’s still there. I took a tour of it. The owner of the house fixed up the inside of it to look as much like the movie as possible. He couldn’t change things like the location of the staircase, but it was pretty cool. Across the street they had a little museum where they had Randy’s snowsuit, etc.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Apr 22, 2010 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
I think Al had a source for that idea.
Otherwise, he is a genius, or Lou and Jim Hendry do read BCB!!
RE: I’m waiting for him to explain his "Al Yellon"
Al Yellon is Arabic and means (freely translated) booing from the bleachers…
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
"Booing from the bleachers"?
Nope. And not Arabic, either.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Gee, whiz, golly, and I thought I might have broken the secret code.
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Sorry, I think I get to claim all the credit for this one:
I called Zambrano for setup on the morning of 4/17, and repeated it to much dissent a few days later.
http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2010/4/17/1426958/ted-lilly-soon-to-return-to-a#34970241
by Jerry Mumphrey on Apr 22, 2010 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Since nobody aksed me, here's my take
Yes, the offense has sucked. Different problem altogether, and while it’s had as much or more of an effect on the start, having a bad offense doesn’t prevent them from addressing the bullpen.
So, the pen other than Marmol has sucked, but the starting pitching has overall been very good. While the starters are doing a good job, which considering the recent track records of Silva and Gorz could change quickly, move Z to the ’pen to help until one of the kids starts showing the ability to pitch the 7th/8th or until a trade is made.
I look at this as nothing more than a band-aid until a more permanent solution is found. But it’s a band-aid that makes some sense as long as the starters are all pitching well. Z has pitched to a high-3’s era for the past three years. I don’t think that Silva or Gorz can do that for a full season, but if Lou, etc. think they can for a month or so until the bullpen gets better, or gets outside help, the move could work. It’s really not the end of the world.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
Al?
What happened to the Big Z is a great teammate thread/ middle finger picture thread?
by timeforachange2009 on Apr 22, 2010 10:23 AM CDT reply actions
I think you can answer that question yourself.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
can i just say that the traffic on this site must be OFF the charts, huh AL?
no other team has fans like the cubs…
no other team has DL stints from guys slipping in hottubs, jumping over dugouts, or sneezing…
no other team’s grounds crew has to pick up shattered cork debris all over the infield…
no other team has a manager hung up on LRLRLRLR lineups and is asleep half the time…
no other team is now cursed since the SOX (both red and white have a title)…
no other team blames a LF fan interference, or goat, or black cat for their failures…
no other team has a priest w/ holy water come in to the dugout only to see the team go 0-6 in two divisional playoff series…
but we plug ahead and live to fight another day…i’m hoping for rainbows and unicorns here today at 7 pm, as we continue to look at the glass half full…
we lost over 25 games last year by less than 2 runs…in ‘08 we were making our own breaks and last year the cards didn’t fall our way…i’m all for being proactive, but i believe this move is premature and will not work, but i wont hope (like others here) that a SP gets shelled or hurt to prove a point…
let’s fly a W flag this evening and get johan…one day at a time, fellas…
by 12to23to17 on Apr 22, 2010 10:30 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
that's not entirely true
I’ve heard of players getting on the DL by running through glass doors, slipping on the clubhouse steps, punching electric fans…
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Not entirely. I was in Baltimore when the grounds crew had to pick
up cork thrown at Sosa by a fan who ran out to right field and knelt in front of him. Although I think the corks were whole and not shattered, come to think of it.
One of Lee Elia's 15%
by waiting4cubs on Apr 22, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Unbelievable
I talked to a Cardinals friend of mine who called to tell me that it’s OK about Zambrano because Wainwright was being moved to the pen too. I said “Seriously?” and he busts up laughing and says hell no and starts going on about how worthless the Cubs management is and no reason why they haven’t won a World Series in 101 years. I said to him “Wait until later this year, we’ll see who’s on top of the division!!”
Shut him right up.
Be sure to point out that while our hockey team is losing right now
That Blues team has never even made it to the Stanley Cup finals.
If he cares about hockey of course…
by IllinoisCubs on Apr 22, 2010 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Unfortunately, that is incorrect.
The St. Louis Blues made it to the Stanley Cup finals three years in a row, 1968, 1969 and 1970.
Of course, that’s when all the expansion teams were in one division so one of them HAD to make it, but still. A fact’s a fact.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Which is then fun to counter with
Stanley Cups None
Conference championships None
Blues reached the final round each of their first three seasons, though they were swept first by the Montreal Canadiens in 1968 and 1969 and then by the Boston Bruins in 1970.
by IllinoisCubs on Apr 22, 2010 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions
yes sir
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
"To [Vermont Cubs Fan], good luck, stay strong!"
-Captain Richard Phillips-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 22, 2010 11:02 AM CDT reply actions
Re: Silva's ERA
It actually got as low as 0.62 before the home run. MLB was updating his ERA stat after every batter. Kind of fun to see the numbers change. Of course, right after the home run, it went up to 1.68, then kept dropping after each out from there.
"Look, what do you want me to do?"
Refreshing
99% of people are idiots and 99% of Cubs fans are saying the Z to the bullpen move is maddeningly stupid. It’s refreshing to know the commenters that frequent this site are in the 1% of intelligent people. This is a classic example of a thinking outside the proverbial box move and most people can’t see the boundaries of the box none the less think outside of said boundaries. Congratulations Lou I hope your move works out because it has genius written all over it. And I don’t want to see the nay sayers saying I told you so if it doesn’t work out b/c it would still be a great idea even if it doesn’t work out. All the correct logic was use with the information at the time and that is what matters. Go Cubbies!
by ConcreteCoda on Apr 22, 2010 11:24 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
You're celebrating innovation for innovation's sake, and nothing more.
Outside the box thinking is great when you can prove that the box really doesn’t need to be there, or is completely arbitrary.
This is not an example of that kind of “box.” In order to win you maximize the amount of time your best players are on the diamond. For batters, this means starting them instead of using them as pinch hitters. For pitchers, it means starting them instead of using them in the bullpen.
There’s a reason every reliever is a failed starter.
by Wreckard on Apr 22, 2010 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
That's not correct.
Many relievers are trained for that role in the minor leagues. Try again, though.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
They are trained for that role if they don't have the stuff to be a starter.
When was the last time you saw a top prospect who was a middle reliever? Top pitching talent is always tried as a starter first.
If you’re starting out as a reliever it’s because it’s obvious even at that level you don’t have a future as a starter.
reply fail
But on the subject above, the AM 670 guys were having a field day with it, practically talking on top of each other trying to express how idiotic they felt the whole move was.
by Jerry Mumphrey on Apr 22, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
If talk radio DJs are saying it's a bad idea, then it must be a really really GOOD idea.
"Look, what do you want me to do?"
I think we need an overflow thread.
This is getting veeerrryyy ssslllooowww.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
I like it...
and I like the maturity is shows in Z for not just agreeing but saying he is here to do what he needs to do to help this team.
I haven’t read through all of the replies, but nothing says Z can’t spot start as well
as be the set up man along with Marshal…
"Why people, who have not committed any punishable offense, listen to Country and Western music is absolutely beyond me" - John Cleese
*as well as...
"Why people, who have not committed any punishable offense, listen to Country and Western music is absolutely beyond me" - John Cleese
Dennis Eckersley, John Smoltz, Kerry Wood...Carlos Zambrano?
"Believe or leave."
by flachimesa on Apr 22, 2010 11:49 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Because unlike the 3 names on that list
…there’s no good reason to move him to the bullpen. All of those pitchers were moved to the pen because of durability or injury issues.
Eckersley on why he moved to the pen:
I was 32. Starting was getting to be difficult. I couldn’t go six or seven innings, wade through all those left-handers any more.
you really think Z CAN'T go 6 or 7 innings?
Cmon
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions
6 innings, maybe, 7 innings, no
but pitchers (except maybe Dempster) don’t go 7 innings anymore. Ironic that Dempster was a starter converted to reliever converted back to starter.
"Believe or leave."
That was a different era
Averaging 6 IP/GS back in the mid-80’s was a different than it is now.
At that time, the league GS/IP was 6.5, meaning that Eckersley was below average.
The modern GS/IP is 5.9, meaning that Zambrano is above average.
Right Wreckard
Lets also not pretend like it was better in the old days.
Back in My day pitchers weren’t pussies!
Yeah well pitchers also got injured more.
Also the .6 change in IP/GS is showing that there isn’t a huge change. It’s noticeable, but it’s not like everyone was going out there for 9 during the 80s (and likely not the 70s either).
What's really interesting is that the average number of pitches / outing actually hasn't changed
People have a tendency to look at IP and say that pitchers are wussies these days who can’t go deep into games, but with factors like better hitters, an increased emphasis on plate patience, and smaller foul territory, pitchers are throwing the same number of pitches but going almost 1 full inning less on average.
Here’s a good article on the subject:
http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2010/04/how-have-pitch-counts-changed-in-the-past-20-years/
So what you are saying
Is in fact that the pitchers in the old days were pussies? :p
I'm very happy to see Sori
hitting and running well. I just hope it continues the rest of the season. Silva pitching well is more than I ever expected and hope it can continue too.
by sue369 on Apr 22, 2010 11:53 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
i know he has his haters (and some rightfully so)
but when sori’s going good, the cubs seem to go good…
i hate his hop and hot doggin’ and he’s a liability on defense, but i’d never boo him on opening day intros…
i think many of them are pressing, and that’s never a recipe for success…
sure he’s a headache sometime, but games that sori’s play has cost us < games that sori’s play have resulted in a win
Boo him on opening day intros? No.
Boo him for jogging out of the box and hot dogging for it to not even come close? Yes. Especially if he might have been able to get another base.
United we stand and united we'll fall......down on our knees the day we win it all!
by Bricks and Ivy on Apr 22, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I will give him credit though.
He flew out of the box last night. Good for him that he responded to his meeting with Lou and didn’t let his ego get in the way.
United we stand and united we'll fall......down on our knees the day we win it all!
by Bricks and Ivy on Apr 22, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
correct...i have no problem with criticizing lack of hustle
personally, i don’t boo players on my team, but i’m okay w/ others doing so and letting them know fans don’t appreciate the lack of effort
News Flash: Zambrano to play Goalie for Blahawks in Playoffs tonight!
“Well, I know I have tonight off. And I think I can block the goal better than Soto blocks my wild sliders.” said Zambrano “It looks a lot like soccer.”
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 12:02 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
one thing i have noticed is that a lot of other sites and some of the other cubs sites, nsbb for one, are trotting out stats as the sole reason for keeping zambrano in the rotation and not moving him to the pen. i also note that none of them, posters or anyone else, say who should go down to the pen when lilly comes back. and as expected they all hate this move. i am still non comittal about it because 1) z’s turn in the rotation hasn’t come up yet and 2) z hasn’t come out of the pen yet. let’s see what happens first.
also something in common: these stat heavy sites were among the ones who said that (name redacted)* was a valuable member of the team and not only should not have been suspended, he should not have been traded. i’m not sure how this site acts, but while i’m not a stats geek, i can use the MEI (my eye index). using my two eyes i could tell you that (name redacted) wasn’t as valuable as they said (fontenot had more rbi and hit better in fewer games than (name redacted) and i got called out for cherry picking) and that zambrano has been the worst pitcher of our 5 starters so far.
sometimes using stats to justify actions is the worst thing you can do and the only time using stats to make a roster move makes sense is when you are playing the game on your ps3 or 360.
Gorzo should go to the pen . That is a no brainer
He has by far the weakest track record and he has the most experience going in and out of starting and relieving. Of course he is
left handed so they won’t do it. The thing is Gorzo goes in the pen as a LONG reliever and it should not matter if he is a lefty or a righty. It is pretty clear Marshall is no longer a long guy and you need one. Again I don’t think Marshall, Russell & Berg are that bad. I have no problem with Lou using them individually or in combination for the 8th. It was continuing to use Shark, Grabow
and before that Caridad that blew most of the save opportunites. They are not lights out but they are NOT bad enough to call for an action this drastic. Gorzo is the one who belongs in the pen.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
So what your saying is...
Z should stay in the rotation and Gorzo should be in the bullpen?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I laughed
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Apr 22, 2010 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Its when Caridad comes back
And maybe even Guzman, if that ever happens, that things are going to get interesting
"Hating the Yankees is as American as pizza pie, unwed mothers, and cheating on your income tax"
-Mike Royko
by Inthejungle on Apr 22, 2010 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Guzman is out for the year
And Caridad may be out for quite a while. I want Gray to get a shot as a setupman too. Gray strikes me as a RP who can throw strikes and will not walk many hitters.
Anyone but Grabow is fine with me
But I doubt they start using Z as a middle reliever. I mean, how much can you push a guy. At least “set up man” has a little prestige.
"Hating the Yankees is as American as pizza pie, unwed mothers, and cheating on your income tax"
-Mike Royko
by Inthejungle on Apr 22, 2010 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions
I believe a setupman's value is the same as a closer's value.
Idc how good your closer is, but if your setupman continues to suck, then expect the same number of loses compared to a game where the closer blows the lead or the game.
News Flash: Zambrano to play Power Forward for Bulls in Playoffs tonight!
“We think he can really box out and eat up some space in the paint.” said Vinny Del Negro. “John Paxton and I had a long, quiet talk and agreed that we would limit his minutes to 20 or 2 innings of a Cubs game, whichever came later.”
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Apr 22, 2010 12:08 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I doubt Paxson and Vinny had a quiet conversation about anything recently
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Apr 22, 2010 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
News Flash: Zambrano on Bears Draft Radar!
“We’ve traded away out first and second round picks. So I’m treating the third round like it’s the first round and picking the best available athlete.” Said Jerry Angelo “We’ll have scouts in Milwaukee Friday night to see if Zambrano could be an effective fifth tight-end/full-back for us.”
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
This could be better than Lebron to the Browns
I mean he’s more athletic, but Z could add some spice to another Chicago team that always seems to lack oomph
"Hating the Yankees is as American as pizza pie, unwed mothers, and cheating on your income tax"
-Mike Royko
by Inthejungle on Apr 22, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I believe the move can end up being a short-term move (for 1 month) or...
End up being an ingenious move that may last all the way till August.
Its funny how people jump all over Sori...
But continue to “forgive” ARAM and his struggles (Im not saying the fans are finding his struggles acceptable, but in relevance to Soriano, the fans forgive ARAM’s struggles more over Soriano mistakes).. I mean, I know most of the fans know ARAM has been doing terrible as of late, but whenever Sori makes a mistake, people go out on him like there’s no tomorrow.
the difference is....
Aramis has produced in recent memory and hasn’t been a detriment to us defensively.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions
LMAO, man oh man I remember quite a few plays where ARAM has messed up defensively
That is, if it weren’t for Lee’s defense, ARAM’s defense owuld be just as bad as Sorianos.
Oh boy.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions
You know it true...
ARAM has above average range for a 3B, but several of his throws has been quite inaccurate. My point of the argument is not to belittle ARAM, but to exemplify ARAM has made some mistakes that have impacted the outcome of the game in the past.
yes, all players can make mistakes from time to time...
compare the rate of mistakes between Soriano and Ramirez and balance it against their offensive production for the past couple years and get back to me.
Look, I’m not saying I’m not disappointed in Ramirez slump so far this season, but the guy has earned a little more leeway (from me at least) before I get really frustrated with him.
On a positive note, Soriano looks to be coming around with the bat!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
nor I
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
The only story here...
Is Soriano’s contract. If he wasn’t grossly overpaid no one would hate him.
"Hating the Yankees is as American as pizza pie, unwed mothers, and cheating on your income tax"
-Mike Royko
by Inthejungle on Apr 22, 2010 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah...I'm going to have to...sort of...disagree with you here.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
His pay doesn't affect me in the slightest
His dropping fly balls, staring at his hits from home plate, and swinging and missing at the same curve a foot outside over and over irritate the hell out of me.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Then why is Z's pay such an issue for you?
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Apr 22, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Let me just say, if the Cubs can put together a nice little run here...
and Zambrano settles in as the 7th-8th inning bridge, he is really going to come up looking like roses. He reputation instantly goes from immature knucklehead to sportsman of the year.
On another tangent I’m a big Steve Stone fan, but I have to admit his smugness over this and how dumb he thought it was started to bother me. This is one instance where I think he’s dead wrong and would love to see him eat crow.
by Jerry Mumphrey on Apr 22, 2010 12:30 PM CDT reply actions
Steve Stone has been wrong on many occasions
Don’t be surprised if hes wrong again.
Opposing team strategy
As mentioned on this site elsewhere, it seems the opponent team strategy thus far has been to keep the game close through the first few innings, then shell the soft relievers in the 6th through 9th. This move at the very least should shake up that strategy. I think the Cubs may finally have a bullpen that may instill some fear in the batter, or at least some respect. As a hitter, I don’t think I’d want to face a tough starter, only to have to face Marshall, then the Carlos-es late in the game. Offense still needs some work, but I think the pieces are there. I like the move, and my interest in the game is renewed a bit.
"They say that money doesn't buy happiness...but it DOES by Cub tickets. You ever see a sad person with Cub tickets?"
So
it’s the other team’s strategy to not try and score early so that they can get to the Cub’s shitty bullpen? You really think these team’s are trying to keep the game close early on purpose? I’m pretty sure most teams are trying to score as early and as often as possible.
Maybe...
When I see our starters with >100 pitches thrown after only 5-6 innings, that seems like a short path to a relief pitcher. Intentional? Well, against a bullpen that owns a ~8.0 ERA, it is a sound strategy. Practical? We’ve all seen the batters that work pitches really well, able to induce 8-12 pitch ABs. There is a mental aspect to this game, I don’t think there’s any denying that. Down by a few late in the game, there’s no need to panic when the Cubs’ reliever corps’ ERA is up the the 8s. My point is – maybe teams aren’t going to be so anxious to get into our ’pen now.
"They say that money doesn't buy happiness...but it DOES by Cub tickets. You ever see a sad person with Cub tickets?"
I understand
that it normally happens that way. A team struggles against good starting pitching and tacks on some runs against inferior pitchers. That I understand. But to say a team struggles early on purpose as a strategy to keep the game close is, well, stupid. All teams want to face the bullpen. It’s normally a strategy to chase the starter early to get into the bullpen. That’s true for 100% of the teams in baseball. Do you think the Braves were getting owned by Halladay last night on purpose?
Stupid? Yes!
Yeah, dogging it on purpose is dumb, and not what I am suggesting. I am saying that a batter can approach an ‘at-bat’ several different ways. One is to swing at the first pitch, guess fastball, and (hopefully) get yourself a hit. That strategy should seem familiar to Cub fans. Alternately, a hitter can approach the AB with a mindset of watching a few pitches, adjust to the pitch timing, etc., all while making the pitcher work harder, thus getting into the bullpen earlier.
"They say that money doesn't buy happiness...but it DOES by Cub tickets. You ever see a sad person with Cub tickets?"
What I don't understand in all this...
is why we’re bashing Silva so much. Al says he has the fourth best ERA in the NL, and then goes on to say we’d all be happy if he turned into Jason Marquis. Let’s give the guy a chance to screw up (even once) before we morph him into one of the more mediocre SP’s of the Lou era.
"Hating the Yankees is as American as pizza pie, unwed mothers, and cheating on your income tax"
-Mike Royko
by Inthejungle on Apr 22, 2010 12:53 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
We are not bashing him
we are actually singing praises of Silva as the Muses have sung the greatness of Silva.
Who is bashing Silva?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions
I like the idea...
With Lilly coming back we have 3 damned good starters and 3 good starters…
Yes I know some out there are going to roll their eyes and say just wait till Silva
melts down and turns into the craptastic train wreck he was in Seattle, but I’m
trying to have some faith in him and Larry Rothchild that he will maintain…
we have a pretty damned good closer… ok so he occasionally causes some of us to
reach for either nitro pills or a heavy blunt object, but these things happen… even the
best of the best gets rocked once in a while…
and then we have the sucking chest wound that is out middle relief…
The ONE and only bright spot so far has been Marshal…
We have the Marx Brothers of relief pitching in Grabow, Spellcheck, Berg, Grey and Russel…
Ok… so we have 6 starters and a gaping hole in middle relief so what do you do…
you take someone you know can go LONG in relief and possibly often, someone who has atleast some experience in the pen and you put him there…
Dempster… no ty… as much as I love Demp as a starter and have apologized here on the board for hating to see him try and close a game cause I don’t have that strong a heart the guy has been one if if not THE best pitcher we have…
Lilly… no… as far as I know Lilly never did relief role pitching…
Silva… He’s just now looking good as a starter and getting his head space right… don’t screw with success…
Gorz… eh… so so… maybe… but why…
Wells… no… He’s in his second year and you’ve been grooming him for starter…
Then there is Z… you know he can go long into a game so wear and tear aren’t much
of a concern if you have to have him pitch 3 innings… He’s done relief, all be it not in
a long time. and as much as I love Z, you know he’s already batS**T crazy so what
harm can it do…
Plus if you need him he can spot start to give one of the others a day off…
and if Hendry and pull of a deal somewhere for middle relief you bring Z back into the starting rotation…
"Why people, who have not committed any punishable offense, listen to Country and Western music is absolutely beyond me" - John Cleese
Incidentally...
… I posted a poll on this topic on the front page. Go vote — I want to see the sense of the entire community.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Where does the opinion of
fearing this is the dumbest move since the College of Coaches, but hoping I’m wrong and that it turns out to be pure genius fit in? I’m on the fence but “Meh” sounds too indifferent.
"And away we go..."-Pat Hughes
BTW: The Brewers are creaming the Pirates 16:0, top of the 7th, 1 out
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
sounds like a good time...
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
if only
we still had Pie.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
A game the entire family can enjoy
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
WHOOO!!! IN THA SUN SHINE OF YOUR LOOOOOOOVE
Right?
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Yabut
In this picture it is more like The Sunset of their Lives
"All of us are in the gutter...some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
Psh
And that’s all I have to say about that
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
geez
I can only imagine what you had to dig through on google to find a blonde and cream pie
this
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 22, 2010 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
you had to go there.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 22, 2010 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Ah!
The Portland Mercury. Amusing for it’s bitterness and bizarrity.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Apr 22, 2010 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
that is a whipped cream masterpiece
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
I'll throw my cap in to the ring
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
If we all stay over, we can have this for breakfast
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
@Twitter as @brommmietze
Save 17 cents?
They couldn’t have made it 20?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
oooffff!!!!!
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Apr 22, 2010 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
They ended up winning the game 20-0
and for the SERIES Milwaukee outscored Pittsburgh 36-1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THAT is domination
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 22, 2010 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Management's Risk
When the Cubs make a trade, then Zambrano should go back to the rotation. I think the team might shed one or more of the LHPs in the trade.
In the meantime, I hope they use Zambrano effectively and that he pitches well from the bullpen. He still gets the same paycheck, so this is a risk for Lou, Hendry or anyone else who endorsed this approach.
The Cubs are proving they don’t care about
Another mistake
…The Cubs are proving they don’t care about the payroll but the move should be temporary because of it.
by AboutTheCubs on Apr 22, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
gordo tweets:
Lineup vs. Santana: riot, baker (3b), lee, byrd, nady, sori, soto, font, gorz
There is no infinity button for failing in sports. At some point, things turn. They always do. - Bill Simmons
Um so bench Theriot after what I think was his best game at the plate?
and have Fonty play SS, this sounds like fun. Unless I am missing something we have exactly one player (Lee) who is really good fielder.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Um, yeah - you are missing something.
Theriot, aka “riot”, is starting and leading off. Presumably he’s at SS, Fonty’s at 2B and Baker is over at 3B.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Good thing I am taking a break and seeing a movie tonight.
Would like to see Tracy get a start.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Apr 22, 2010 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
What movie?
Just saw “Kick-Ass” last weekend. What awful trash
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
Since I've already said my take on Z...
I’d just like to say that watching Soriano play so well yesterday made me really happy.
I hope he can keep it going. As a baseball fan, he’s one of those players that are really fun to watch when they’re dominant. It just makes the whole sport better.
Go Cubs!
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