Why The Phillies Will Regret The Ryan Howard Deal
It's the same reason anyone signing Prince Fielder to a longterm deal should be cautious.
about 2 years ago
Al Yellon
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Comments
Of the two of them
I would much rather have Howard. Maybe it is because of the baggy uniform, but Fielder looks really overweight. He looks uncomfortable in the field. In my opinion, often these big contracts end up being rewards for past greatness, as opposed to payment for future accomplishments.
The NL does not have the DH where you can put a palyer who can still hit but position skills have faded. Yes, you can make them your pinch-hitter, but who wants a $25 million dollar pinch hitter. Down the road, the Phils may have to trade him and eat a huge pile of salary to an AL team.
Howard
is in better shape that Fielder, but that’s not saying much.
I never travel far without a little Big Star. R.I.P Alex
by Josh Timmers on May 2, 2010 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
He slimmed down a lot last year, but still looks big
I think any discussion of star players being overpaid with contracts too long is biased on here …we cub fans sure know it well. Perhaps that puts us in an even better place to judge these contracts.
"Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two."
by Sandberg's evil twin on May 2, 2010 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Obviously
Howard is a fantastic player, but I still do think he’s overpaid. They chose to analyze the contract using RBI’s, which can be a very misleading stat. Howard is definitely overpaid, but I think it’s because of his lowly batting average and high percentage of strikeouts.
AC0000000
Next Year
Yes, I agree.
He is overpaid, but I think the article went a little overboard. He’s shown consistent stats, just not enough to justify the money they are paying him…which is definitely the Yankee syndrome in my mind. You end up having to overpay players that contribute consistenly or risk the Evil Empire swooping down and picking him off the team. I certainly would have liked to see the Phillies try to sign him for less if I were a Phillies fan, but you know the Philly fans would laugh at that statement and throw Sori and Fukudome back at us.
"Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two."
by Sandberg's evil twin on May 2, 2010 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Speaking of insane contracts for first basemen...
I don’t get here as much as I’d like and maybe someone has already posted this but has anyone mentioned Fonzy being the Cub first baseman starting next year? I am a DLee fan but with his contract ending and with Soriano’s making him a Cub for life, could Fonzy possibly be better at catching balls thrown in his direction than he is at balls hit in his direction? He’s got to play somewhere from 2011 on.
And, of course, he would have to lose the hop or his foot would never be on the bag.
NO!
You need soft hands and lightning-quick reflexes to play 1B. Soriano, to me, lacks these qualities.
And yet, he started as a shortstop
I don’t recall Soriano’s fielding problems at second base, specifically. If they were throwing problems, or not having good footwork on DPs, that shouldn’t affect his ability to play first. If they were not getting to balls or having “stone hands” it would. There have certainly been a lot of bad second basemen that ended up as decent first basemen. I would be very surprised if the Cubs went this direction, but it’s not completely stupid.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
i fear the hop on a throw in the dirt
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
LOL
I have to say that with the Cubs’ current defensive makeup and problems, subtracting a former golden glover and moving a problem to first base doesn’t seem like a good idea. I think he would be even more of a problem at first base…but I get the logic. Guess you’d have to see what he could do and try him out. I am skeptical given his difficulties already with second base, LF and CF.
"Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two."
by Sandberg's evil twin on May 2, 2010 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Does anyone know exactly what he had problems with at 2B?
Throwing, balls ’tween the legs, or everything?
Yes'm
The agent for Adrian Gonzalez
must be speed-dialing the Padres with a “busy” signal in repsonse.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 3, 2010 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions
I am scared to see what Pujols goes for now
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Castro Blocker Fan Club
undoubtedly the team most pissed about this contract was the Cards
Sets the bar for Pujols ridiculously high, and maybe out of their price range. He deserves 25% over Howard, IMO. More demonstrative of how bizarre this contract was, especially as an extension
by PrincetonCubs on May 2, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions
whatever it is, they'll regret it eventually
"They say you don’t win a pennant in April, but you can sure lose one." - Ryan Dempster
"Stuttgart Kickers soccer player Sascha Bender once suffered a facial injury after being punched. The assailant, teammate Christian Okpala, said Bender "permanently provoked me by farting all the time." "
That's assuming the Cards sign him.
I’ve heard the GM here in St. Louis saying quietly that they aren’t willing to pay Howard-like numbers for him. That may be bluster given the huge pressure from the fans to sign him, but the Cards have not made a huge enlargement of team salary in a long time, and that’s what it would take to sign him with the current roster. Holliday’s contract contributes to this as much as Howard’s does…Signing Pujols to 30 million a year, as most people project he’ll earn at least, will definitely make a big increase in team payroll. Something has to give here…to sign him, either the Cards suck it up and pay a lot more team payroll, or he takes a huge hometown discount. I would not expect the latter to happen.
"Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two."
by Sandberg's evil twin on May 2, 2010 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Not to mention...
(presuming Pujols gets the $30M) that it would tie up $47M in just two players. Add in something reasonable for a couple starters (Wainwright comes due, can’t have just 1 good pitcher) and you’ll be nearing $75M for just 4 players.
The closest the Cardinals have come to $100M payroll was in 2008 when they got as high as $99.6M.
The catch-22 of the situation is that without signing Holliday you risk showing Pujols that you aren’t willing to surround him with a good team, and signing him might make it harder to keep the guy you really should be keeping.
They will never regret signing Pujols.
Whatever the price tag is, they’ll pay it, and be glad they did.
by Orval Overall on May 2, 2010 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions
And that’s where I think things fall with the Phillies and Howard. They clearly feel he provides more than just the value on the field. So while his WARP3 may decline in the next five or six years, the team has to feel he provides a different kind of value that, perhaps, you can’t actually measure with advanced stats. David Montgomery, President and CEO of the Phillies, told 610WIP this week that, “The key for a player of Ryan’s stature is the length of the contract. This is a statement to our fans and everyone who follows us that you know who the first basemen is going to be for the next five, or hopefully six years.”
Interesting Take on this very subject
Everyone complains about the length and price of Sori’s deal too. However IF you knew the only way to win two division championships was to pay this much money would you have? Ryan Howard has led them to two World Series and as this blogger notes is an icon in the city … does this have value? Overpaying now may allow coffers to stay full to pay others later.
Yes
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
Eddie Murray or Mo Vaughn?
It’s tough to predict, but given his exceptional achievements and popularity in Philly, I can see why he got this contract.
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
by ernaga on May 2, 2010 5:31 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Two World Series where Howard played a HUGE role in the team getting there
Nuff said.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
by BLou on May 2, 2010 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great player, great guy.
Not a great contract, but what are you going to do? If they had not paid him the money, he would have gotten it somewhere else on the open market. He’s the face of the franchise. It’s not Roy Halladay, it’s Ryan Howard. Three years from now, they will probably be counting the days until this contract is off the books, and the Philly fans will be crucifying them for making this deal. And yet, the fans would have crucified them now if they hadn’t. Either way, the organization always loses with contracts like this.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Their analysis is all wrong
“Howard’s game personifies what Bill James, the father of modern statistical analysis in baseball, once called "old player’s skills," namely patience and power. By contrast, young players tend to excel in speed, fielding and making contact.
Neither set of abilities is more valuable than the other. But they bode very differently for the futures of the players who possess them. Natural athletes like Carl Crawford or Hanley Ramirez can compensate for the inevitable loss of durability and bat and foot speed that comes with aging by improving their pitch recognition or bulking up in the weight room. But massive mashers like Howard or Prince Fielder cannot transform themselves into lithe leadoff men as the years go on and the strikeouts pile up. "
This implies that players with “old man’s skills” are more likely to decline when most sabermetricians claim the opposite. One of the main premises of advance stats is that plate discipline and power don’t decline with age nearly as much as speed and athleticism do. One of the other main ideas, highlighted in Moneyball, is the theory that plate discipline is something that cannot be taught, but is more or less innate. This author of this article did a piss-poor job of researching the topic at hand.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 2, 2010 9:10 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Why not quote his next paragraph too?
As a result, their stars tend to burn brightly but briefly. Howard’s list of most similar players on Baseball-Reference.com includes a number of cautionary tales, including Mo Vaughn, Travis Hafner, David Ortiz, Richie Sexson, Cecil Fielder and John Jaha of recent vintage, as well as throwbacks like Jim Gentile and Dick Stuart. None of them had a valuable season after age 33, and most flamed out well before that. It is no wonder that Dan Szymborski, a writer for ESPN.com who has developed a player-projection system called ZiPS, foresees Howard posting a .325 on-base percentage and .469 slugging percentage in the last year of his deal. That is not much better than what one would expect from Mike Jacobs, whom the Mets cut two weeks ago.
He was referring specifically to how Howard’s batting can be expected to decline when he’s in his mid 30’s and produced plenty of research to back up his point, including comparing the careers of people who are the most similar to Howard statistically.
Vinny: "[Thrust] means pace, it means getting the ball out, it means getting your back to the sidelines, it means extending your outlets, it means getting the ball up the court into our early offense with plenty of time."
Ryan Howard is an immensely gifted player
He is a game alterer. One that has been a major driver behind the Phillies getting to the World Series twice. His contract is rich, but certainly not unreasonable given his proven track record of performance and ability to carry the Phillies on his back. And to flourish when the games count most. I wish we had this sort of “problem” on the Cubs. Also, this “debate” shows once again how the sabermagicians are so horribly out of touch. These would be the same idiots who have lambasted Derek Jeter for over a decade. The same Jeter who has played in 7 World Series, is one of the greatest post-season performer of all time and now holds the mantle of all time hits leader of the Yankees.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
Howard hit .174 in last year's World Series
with a .631 OPS. That was by far his worst post season performance mind you but your, “And to flourish when the games count most.” line is pure example of BLou talking out of his ass. This signing should have nothing to do with his past performance but instead be about expected production throughout the ENTIRE contract.
There is no doubt in my mind that if Hendry were to have made this same deal with Howard, you would be bashing him for signing a player that very well could sharply decline well before the contract is over.
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
Powerful paragraph
Shortly after the deal was announced, Philadelphia’s general manager, Ruben Amaro Jr., said Howard "kind of set the market for himself." When a general manager admits he has let players set their own market, it may be time to get into the market for a new general manager.
I think this singing is 10X worse than anything Hendry has put together. Why do such a long term expensive contract on a guy 2 years before his contract expires is beyond me. Especially when his current contract runs out when he is 32 and now they have him locked up FOREVER…way to go phillies – will make it easier to win the NL come 2014-2016.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
quote fail
Shortly after the deal was announced, Philadelphia’s general manager, Ruben Amaro Jr., said Howard "kind of set the market for himself." When a general manager admits he has let players set their own market, it may be time to get into the market for a new general manager.
is this better?
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
dang
Shortly after the deal was announced, Philadelphia’s general manager, Ruben Amaro Jr., said Howard "kind of set the market for himself." When a general manager admits he has let players set their own market, it may be time to get into the market for a new general manager.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
A Different Comparison
One name has been oddly absent from this discussion, given that it was the other mega-deal signed this year: Joe Mauer. Being a fan of the Twins as well as the Cubs, I was startled by this Howard deal…while Mauer got more years, Howard is getting more per year. Not that I think Mauer is going to starve or anything, but is Howard really worth more per year than Mauer? Howard has more power, but that’s about the only area in which Mauer is not clearly superior. Batting average, defense (Mauer plays a much more important position very well), speed, strikeout numbers…I don’t get why the Phillies coughed up more for Howard this quickly after Mauer was signed.






















