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"Jackson has had a chance he can throw out of the pen, and he did a great job. And now we'd like to know what Cashner can do out of the pen because these kids are young kids.
"They've pitched for two years and I'd hate to know that they (couldn't come) up here because we had a need for our bullpen."

...This makes absolutely no sense, but at least both Jackson and Cashner will be starting after their "trial" finishes. At least it shouldn't hurt us long-term now.

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Jackson has a better arsenal for starting pitching than Cashner does. He has four pitches (fastball, slider, changup and curve) that would suit much better for starting pitching.

Cashner has good stuff, but mainly a fastball/slider combo. NTM he was a closer during his TCU career. I think he’s a better fit in the bullpen as a dominant reliever.

by dblplay on May 27, 2010 5:01 PM CDT reply actions  

that's not true

I’m a huge Jay Jackson fan, but right now, Cashner has the better starting arsneal. Simply having more pitches doesn’t mean much. Right now, Cashner’s got his slider back, and his circle-change is good. His fastball is better than Jay’s, and his slider is better than Jay’s. I had Jay higher in the winter, but Cashner made huge strides this year.

by toonsterwu on May 27, 2010 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rich Harden has 2 pitches...

If you throw them well, it doesnt really matter much. I agree Jackson could be a very good #2, but Cashner has the explosive ability to be that elisive “ace” if he can keep the quality of pitches up through 6+ innings on a consistant basis.

by bdlugz on May 27, 2010 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Harden has four pitches actually

4 seam fastball
2 seam fastball
curveball
change up

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on May 29, 2010 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

Goodness

I think this is the right move, however can we have a clue in doing it.

by Grockcubs on May 27, 2010 5:02 PM CDT reply actions  

I like it

as long as they dont do this on a reptative basis – stick with it for a while then flip them back…

Sipping the Kool-Aid since 1982 - Kinda
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on May 27, 2010 5:36 PM CDT reply actions  

what the f?

is there any sort of plan going on here?

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 27, 2010 5:38 PM CDT reply actions  

exactly

whoever likes this is missing the big picture. Absolutley NO FRIGGIN’ PLAN!!!!!!

I am at a loss. Keep them in the pen, bring them up and get their feet wet in 2010, and worry about stretchinging them out next Winter and Spring if we need starters. There is no shame in giving them big league hitters in small doses.

How can Hendry, Wilken, Fleita look Ricketts in the eye and convince him “they have a plan and know what they are doing” when crap like this takes place? Enough of the Bergs, Stevens, Russels, Caridads, et al.

by socalbob on May 27, 2010 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

and I think Jackson should be there side-by-side with him.

by socalbob on May 27, 2010 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

At the moment...

… one at a time, let’s see what happens.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on May 27, 2010 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree, one at a time. And shouldn't the one be Jackson?

I mean, Jackson already went through this entire “move to the AAA bullpen to prep for MLB bullpen work” process. And massively succeeded. And now he’s…. back to square one. Why screw around with his arm and his career?

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on May 28, 2010 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

the bullpen is the team's biggest weakness

so it is either bring up someone from the minors or trade for someone.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on May 29, 2010 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's so confusing.

I mean, I completely understand, and agree with, the idea of using top young pitchers from the MLB bullpen at the outset. It limits their workload, and allows the team to pick their spots.

But this constant swapping back and forth and back and forth is not productive. It’s silly, and it demonstrates rather conclusively that they have no idea what the plan is…. but you can bet that today’s plan will be different by next week.

Did Jackson fail in his MLB bullpen audition? Why is Cashner leapfrogging him now?

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on May 27, 2010 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

It says right in the report he did a good job and they will insert Cashner in there now.

Whether it’s completely true or not all you’re going to get is that company line.

"Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two."

by Sandberg's evil twin on May 28, 2010 12:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's not the point I'm making

The previous company line was that Jackson was moving to the AAA bullpen to prep for a promotion to MLB as a reliever.

He was a massive success as a AAA reliever, and then…. no promotion. In fact, back to the AAA rotation with you! We’re gonna do the same thing to Cashner now instead.

Seems an awful lot like we’re dicking around with Jackson’s arm and career for absolutely no reason.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on May 28, 2010 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

As a reliever

Jackson was 2-0 with a 1.17 ERA. He pitched 15 innings and struck out 12 and walked only two. He held opposing hitters to a .218 batting average.

I can’t see how that could be considered a failure by anyone.

That’s why this whole thing is so puzzling/confusing/maddening. If they wanted Cashner and not Jackson in the pen, they shouldn’t have moved Jackson to the pen in the first place.

by Josh Timmers on May 28, 2010 3:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly. Why isn't Jackson in the MLB bullpen now?

I’d like nothing more than to see Jackson, Cashner, or Jackson AND Cashner mowing people down in the 2010 MLB bullpen. But moving Jackson back and forth is just odd.

Seems like Jackson has earned his shot several times over!

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on May 28, 2010 8:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Flabbergasted, I am.

"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray

by Archie on May 28, 2010 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just a foolishly run organization

This is as angry as you’ll ever see me about things. I am big on Jay Jackson, but geesh.

Jay has been stretched out. We know he can start for a season. Andrew hasn’t handled a full workload (was on a pitch count last year). Cashner has a higher ceiling and added a 3rd pitch this year that he needs work on. Jay, while he needs to improve consistency on his breaking pitches, has been working with the pitches for a few years. Jay has a slightly better understanding of how to pitch, something that Cashner was rapidly developing.

This just annoys the heck out of me. One more thing to note – Jay has a high ceiling as a pen option as well. Not as high as Cashner’s, but Jay has flashed mid-upper 90’s heat before, something he might be able to do out of the pen, and he would be able to focus on the slider. Why not give Jay a try in the pen?

Ugh, anyhow, Cashner’s going to be up soon. I’d guess early June now. So disappointing in the timing of these moves and whatever the thought process is.

by toonsterwu on May 27, 2010 6:08 PM CDT reply actions  

Honestly

I can see the Cubs not calling up Cashner at all and I think it depends on how bad the bullpen is doing in the future. If the bullpen does about as well as it is doing right now (basically with Marmol and Marshall dominating and everyone else being basically mediocre) I don’t think they’ll call up Cashner.

From what I interpreted from the quotes I’ve read about this whole situation, this is the Cubs thinking: “We tried to put Z to the pen but obviously the transition was too much for him since he didn’t dominate! Now we must check if this will happen to our top options in the minors! Let’s randomly put them into the bullpen for a couple weeks and see if it affects how they pitch!!”

I think for now the cubs will put Cashner to the pen and if he has immediate success they’ll put him back in the rotation and feel comfortable calling him up immediately without some reliever time in Iowa first; basically they’ll do with Cashner the same thing they did with Jackson. This is as long as the Cubs bullpen holds steady or better in the upcoming weeks.

So although I think the whole idea behind testing the immediate transition is stupid, I don’t think it will affect us long term unless the Cubs bullpen doesn’t hold.. Also, if the Cubs bullpen holds long enough for both Cashner and Jackson to get to the rotation, I still think the first call up will be Jackson.

by ecbc on May 27, 2010 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

I propose we nickname Jackson

“The Rubberband Man” because of the way they’re bouncing him around. It even comes with a good theme song.

by Josh Timmers on May 27, 2010 6:08 PM CDT reply actions  

OK so Lou Pinella is obsessed with our bullpen situation, which is somewhat understandable.

However, I think its necessary to consider who is in the bullpen now.

Carlos Marmol…closer…AWESOME…’Nuff said.
Sean Marshall = Beast!
Bob Howry = Cover your eyes
John Grabow = try not to have a heart attack
James Russell = fine so far
Jeff Stevens = not enough information
Tom Gorzellany = should be good if he pitches similar to his starts

Ok, so what I’m basically saying is that the major issues in the bullpen are Bob Howry and John Grabow. However, Jim Hendry brilliantly signed Grabow too a 7.5 million dollar deal, and I do not see him being released or traded. That leads us to Bob Howry. Howry was a good pitcher but has been awful lately.

If Jim Hendry planned to have Cashner or Jackson in the pen as right handed set up men soon, who would go? Not Grabow. If he had this in mind, then why would he have signed Bob Howry in the first place. If the plan is to send down James Russell, or Jeff Stevens (as it probably is) that should help in the long run. However, these pitchers have not exactly caused much harm to the team.

Adding say, Cashner to the bullpen, would give the cubs a decent setup man from the right side. You would then have marmol closing and marshall as the left handed set up man. Gorzo would be in there maybe has a long reliever and I guess Grabow could be a LOOGY. Howry would essentially pitch in blowouts or extra inning games and the same for Russell/Stevens/whoever.

Basically, I would love to see Cashner dominating as closer, though I really do not think that our bullpen is a major problem (except for when Lou calls on Grabow in a close game). Sorry if none of this made any sense…I just feel they should focus on the position players and HITTING THE BALL….ON another note, Byrd, Soto, Fukudome, and Theriot have all seen their batting averages drop A LOT recently.

by mdcubsfan on May 27, 2010 6:39 PM CDT reply actions  

I don't see this as a huge deal

Jay Jackson has never pitched out of the bullpen. So they didn’t want to risk calling him up and having his first ever relief appearance be in the big leagues. They had him in the pen for a couple weeks, ending with a three-inning stint to ease his way back to starting. Now maybe he can be a little more relaxed if called up to be a reliever, and the team knows his arm will bounce back. It sounds like Cashner is getting the same treatment, but not because of a lack of experience, because he was limited in innings last year by injury concerns. They want to be sure he can throw a few times a week, and back-to-back days, without strain. If so, he can either be called up, or returned to starting with everybody having more information.

Sure, it’s unusual, and Oneira didn’t state it very well, but…not a big deal.

Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"

by cubzfan on May 27, 2010 7:11 PM CDT reply actions  

My problem with this whole mess

is that we are counting on two rookies to solidify our bullpens. Not only are they rookies — they are two top five prospects in our whole organization. It’s not an insane idea to turn them into bullpen arms for the season, but in these two cases I don’t agree with them.

Andrew Cashner has not developed completely as a starter. You can’t go detour his progress just to fill a void in the bullpen. He’s completely dominating starting so why not stretch him out for a year or two before you cripple his devlopment as a starter. Basically, if you agree to try Cashner as a starter, finish what you started! Don’t keep switching the kid back and forth mid-season.

Don’t give me the crap about the Wainwright and Cashner comparision. Bullshit. You know how many innings Wainwright threw the years before he was called up to St. Louis? 163, 149, 63 and 182. Cashner? 100 his first full season. The Cubs wanted to develop him as a starter, why change course when he is getting better as time goes on, and then you revert him to a lesser role in the bullpen.

Nonsense in my opinion.

Maybe next year is finally our year.

by Unique on May 27, 2010 10:38 PM CDT reply actions  

The difference, of course, between Wainwright & Cashner...

… is that Wainwright was drafted out of high school, while Cashner played major college ball.

I think the Jonathan Papelbon comparison above is also apt.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on May 28, 2010 7:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes.

But the difference that is significant to me is the fact Wainwright was consistently a starter in minors for a couple of years and was stretched out enough prior and developed properly as a starter. With Cashner throwing only 100 innings of pro ball prior to this year — and if they expect him to be a starter in the latter, the Cubs are setting the kid and the organization up for disaster.

Andrew Cashner is too talented to be wasted, and yes I mean wasted in the bullpen. He has succeed as a starter, let him continue. Don’t fill bullpen voids with stud prospects.

Maybe next year is finally our year.

by Unique on May 28, 2010 8:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

"Disaster"?

Way over the top. Using Cashner as a reliever this season should have no bearing on his ability to become a starter in the future.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on May 28, 2010 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

How is it over the top?

What is the plan then, Al? Have Cashner be in the bullpen this year and then develop him later? Please. He needs to be stretched out or they are asking for injury and/or ineffectiveness.

Reality is, the Cubs don’t have a plan.

Maybe next year is finally our year.

by Unique on May 28, 2010 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

You're serious?

Three months in relief and they couldn’t stretch a 23-year-old athlete out to start? C’mon. We’re not talking about people made out of glass here.

It’s been done before. It can be done again. All the angst spilled over this move really disturbs me.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on May 28, 2010 8:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

disturbed

that makes two of us

but i’m disturbed by the team’s inability to stick to a consistent methodology

one week Jackson is the bullpen guy now Cashner is the bullpen guy. Stop f-ing flip-flopping around

Pick a direction and stick with it

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 28, 2010 8:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

DCF has identified the problem, Al -

What is the purpose of randomly making your two top starting prospects spend a couple of weeks in the AAA bullpen in the middle of the season if (as with Jackson) you have no plans to do anything at the MLB bullpen level with them, and in fact are just going to stick them back in the AAA rotation anyway?

I am fine with moving Jackson and/or Cashner to the bullpen for this year. I hate the idea that Jackson’s 15 AAA bullpen appearances were just the Cubs organization dicking around with his arm, and then… new plan! Back to the AAA rotation with Jackson! Now Cashner goes to the pen!

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on May 28, 2010 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Now what's really

contradictory is that the organization has come out firmly in the last few weeks against calling Cashner up at all for bullpen help, mentioning or more than one occasion the desire to keep him in a starting role.

“There’s no way,” assistant general manager Randy Bush said.

At this point, they’re literally flip-flopping weekly.

by Damen Jackson on May 28, 2010 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

its unbelievable

and i don’t understand how any intelligent fan could be happy about the way the organization is operating

the individual decisions, cashner to the pen, etc. I don’t care about. But when you put them all together and it shows inconsistent decision-making, flip-flopping, decisions made on a whim, etc. It all shows no clear plan outlined for the development of these players

even in the most recent fanshot the Cubs are quoted as saying they’ll let Cashner know what’s next after Saturday. Why can’t they tell him now what their plan is? Why does he have to be blindsided and surprised by the decision? Because the organization has no f-ing clue what they’re going to do week-to-week

How anyone can defend the org in this case is beyond me

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 28, 2010 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

If we just TELL Cashner the plan, we lose the element of surprise.

Far better to keep these things secret until the last possible moment. That way everyone gets a nice warm fuzzy anxious feeling.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on May 28, 2010 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

Nooooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Our chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and Fear. Fear and surprise. Our two weapons are fear and surprise . And a ruthless efficiency. Our Three weapons are fear and surprise and a ruthless efficiency. And an almost fanatical devotion to the pope. FOUR! nope. AMONGST our weapons…amongst our weaponry are such elements as fear, surprise…. I’ll come in again.

"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray

by Archie on May 28, 2010 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Woo hoo!

It only took an hour for someone to post that!

by Josh Timmers on May 28, 2010 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

It won't ever take me long to post any reference to Monty Python skits...

"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray

by Archie on May 29, 2010 7:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes it will.

… [waiting]

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on May 29, 2010 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well,

I take the Saturday thing as they’re checking see if a starter can be moved before making any decisions with him, which I think is understandable. But while I won’t get tied up in these particular moves (I’ve personally no problem with what they’re doing with Cashner or Jackson), this level of vacillating is just plain disturbing.

Make a plan, and execute it. Geezs.

by Damen Jackson on May 28, 2010 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

agreed

that’s my primary issue with these moves. long run, moving cashner to the pen shouldn’t be the deciding factor as to whether or not he can succeed as a starter. it may delay his progress, but at the end of the day, it’s hard work from him that will determine if he can succeed as a starter. the problem is,

a) What is the plan? Why jerk Jay Jackson around, a guy who could potentially fill the big league pen void, without, you know, actually trying Jay out a couple times?

b) The Cubs make it sound like this is simply a test (which I don’t buy) to see if he can work out of the pen. But if it is … WTF? It’s not like Cashner doesn’t have pen experience …

by toonsterwu on May 29, 2010 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

I have been arguing here literally for years that the greatest concerns for the Cubs as an organization is the lack of a top down philosophy for player development and the inability to play fundamentally sound baseball.

I know that Wrigley can play like a very small park when the wind is blowing out, but the last decade has been spent looking only for power bats in the form of (except for Soriano) aging players near the end or retreads (McGriff, Burnitz, Jones, Bradley, Hundley, Edmonds, Alou, Floyd, Nevin, Hollandsworth, Lawton, Simon, Rondell White, Michael Tucker, Shane Andrews).
Now, some of those worked but the vast majority didn’t. And if they would have put that type of focus into finding a quality lead-off man (w/o giving up 3 players to get a mediocre one), that would put someone on base for the guys with the power.

How about learning how to bunt? or hit a productive ground ball to the right side to get a runner home, or the sac fly?

I really hope that Ricketts ends up breaking everything down and really rebuilding with a goal of long lasting success.

Let’s face it, if the Cubs don’t win it all this year, the window is pretty much closed for the near future, barring sweeping trades or a Yankee-esque payroll for free agents. I can handle a few years of really mediocre baseball if the end result is an improved systemic philosophy that builds a contending FRAMEWORK to keep the team competitive every year.

by ScottT on May 28, 2010 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think that we have the talent in the system to compete in the future now

which is something that we couldn’t say for quite a long time. Assuming, that is, that they don’t mess them all up. Some won’t work out, that is natural. If either Cashner or Jackson have an arm injury at this point though, there is going to be hell to pay.

"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray

by Archie on May 28, 2010 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

What in the world

does 23 year-old athlete have to do with anything? My question is when do they plan on actually stretching the kid out? He needs to log up innings on his arm to see — for one — if he can handle starting for over 130+ innings.

If not, then you transfer him to the bullpen. But you don’t take the kid who has pitched like a TOR starter since the season began into a reliever just because! In the comparision you tried to give in Wainwright – he had already been stretched out. Their long-term plan was to turn him back into a starter. They knew he could handle the workload. The Cubs however, have said many times that they were not going to put Cashner in the bullpen, and then they get as fickle as women when it comes to making decisions on prospects.

It’s been done before to an certain extent but you can’t keep banking on that to hope it succeeds. It would be one thing if this was the exception to the rule for the Cubs but it just looks like the opposite.

Maybe next year is finally our year.

by Unique on May 28, 2010 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Cashner has been ahead of a pace for 130-140 IP this season. Jackson has been below that pace. Switching roles for a few weeks keeps both of them closer to pace and gets them each some experience in the bullpen.

When Z moved to the bullpen, I had this fleeting and irrational hope that Lou would do something different and have Z, Marshall, and either Cashner or Jackson each be able to pitch 2-3 innings of relief once per series after the starters go 6 or 7. I like the options that they’re developing in the minor leagues with these moves.

Finally, it solidifies the likelihood that Shark will stay at AAA all season and work on developing another pitch.

It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??

by Invalid User on May 28, 2010 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

the problem with this theory

is the fact that Cashner is moving to the pen with the anticipation of being promoted to the big leagues

and then stay in the pen from there on

that will make it so that falls well short of his 130 IP target.

Then if you move him back into the starter role next season you have to start implementing rules on his innings limits, etc as he won’t be built out to go beyond 140 or so, as opposed to 160 or so if he had hit his 130 target this year

Jackson hit 127 IP last season, he had capacity to get to 150 or so this year and was not beyond that pace prior to getting shifted to the pen. He had about 23 innings in April, for a 5 month season in minor leagues, that’s around a 125 IP pace. Now even if they loosen the reigns and allow him to go 6-7 innings as opposed to 5-6 in his starts, he’ll finish around 135, not getting stretched out to the 150 his target should have been near

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 28, 2010 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd rather see the Cubs use rookies to shore up the bullpen than spend $$$$$ to sign another "experienced" (read washed-up) reliever

And realistically, the 2010-2011 versions of the Cubs will only be decent teams if these guys are good enough to pitch in the majors. May as well find out now.

by ClarkFan on May 29, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

I tend to agree

I would rather see the Cubs bring up their minor league talent for auditions than try to plug holes with veteran “talent”, but I suspect Hendry and Lou need to win now and will go the veteran route.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on May 30, 2010 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

But with the types of pitchers available for trade, all veterans will get you is "lose now'

If Hendry trades good young players for some washed-up middle reliever, Ricketts should fire him immediately!

by ClarkFan on May 30, 2010 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

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