What's Next For Cubs Spring Training In Mesa?
Yesterday, this FanShot was posted with a link to an article about the Arizona legislature adjourning its session without taking any action on any legislation to keep the Cubs in that state for spring training.
A couple of important points, then some information on what's going to happen next.
First, for anyone who thinks this doesn't matter because "it's only six weeks of practice and games that don't count", that is simply false. The Cubs' facilities in Arizona are a nearly year-round operation that includes hosting extended spring training, rehab facilities for players recovering from injury, a rookie league that plays 56 games over two months in the summer, and the Arizona Fall League in October and November. It does matter, and with many teams in the Cactus League receiving either new or renovated facilities since HoHoKam Park was built in 1997, the Cubs are looking to improve theirs. The major league spring park, only 13 years old, is still in good shape, but the minor league facilities are where the team needs upgrades.
Second, we have argued over and over here about the Cubs' impact on the Cactus League. No matter the actual numbers, which have been reported differently by different sources, there is no question that the Cubs bring a large number of tourist dollars into Arizona every spring. This article from the East Valley Tribune gives more details, and concludes:
Councilman Dennis Kavanaugh said Mesa’s efforts are hurt by not having legislation. But even if Mesa can’t meet the deadline, he is encouraged that Selig has pushed to keep the Cubs in Arizona and that the Ricketts have attended their first spring training here.
"They see the support from the Valley, from the city in terms of how we treat them, in terms of how we treat their fans, and I think that’s gone a long way to create a positive atmosphere for ongoing positive discussions," Kavanaugh said. "I don’t think anybody has a feeling that they want to walk away from the discussions at all."
In the 1990's, after the Cactus League had shrunk to eight teams with the departure of the Indians to Florida (they have since returned), then Arizona Governor Rose Mofford created a commission to make sure other teams didn't leave the state and to also try to lure other teams to move west.
It was a great success, as the Royals, Rangers, Dodgers, and Reds (in addition to the Indians returning) moved from Florida to Arizona. Obviously, economic conditions are different now than they were in the past decade, and the state of Arizona is in, as the East Valley Tribune link points out, "the worst budget crisis in state history".
The current governor, Jan Brewer, is likely to create a similar commission which would include the local (Mesa) and state tourism industry, representatives from the commissioner's office, and the Cubs, to come up with a solution that will be fair for everyone involved -- the city of Mesa, state of Arizona, the Cubs, and the other 14 teams in the Cactus League. From what I understand, everything that's been discussed in this months-long effort will be on the table, including bed taxes, rental car taxes, a TIF district (which would be a first for Arizona), and even a ticket surcharge -- but if approved, this surcharge would be one that would benefit only the other 14 Cactus League teams, not the Cubs. Further, as noted in the East Valley Tribune link above, an extension of the July 12 deadline seems likely. I'm no Bud Selig fan, but in this case I agree with him -- he's gone on record as saying he wants the Cubs to remain in Arizona.
For all the reasons I've written many times before, the Cubs belong in Arizona and Mesa for spring training, and a facility commensurate with places like the ones in Surprise and Glendale. I believe it'll get done.
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It will be a big mistake if Mesa does not make this happen.
The Cubs will have no choice but to move ST to FL for a year and watch Arizona beg for them to come back. I think Arizona is just calling the Cubs’ bluff.
Well, you can't just "move ST for a year".
There would be stadiums needed to be built, facilities arranged, many different logistical issues. It just doesn’t work that way.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agreed
But I think if the Cubs really did go to FL, Arizona would likely go into panic mode after the first year without the Cubs, and try to figure out some way to get them back. I just find it really hard to believe that AZ could just let the Cubs go easily. The original Mesa plan was more of what I expected—Arizona would one way or another make sure the Cubs stayed. I am sure they know what they would be losing, and hopefully understand they can’t afford to lose the Cubs. Sure it may sound like I am biased because I am, but it also makes no sense for AZ to let the Cubs leave, and they know it.
It's just not possible.
I agree with your point — the Cubs belong in AZ — but IF they leave, they’re likely to stay gone. When the Indians left for Florida, they stayed for 17 years before returning — even though their original complex in Homestead was destroyed in Hurricane Andrew.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Not going to happen
The Cubs would not move to Florida without a commitment from Naples to build a new complex. Naples would not agree to build a complex without a 20-30 year agreement from the Cubs to remain there.
Let Free Market reign
If AZ can’t support the Cubs demands, then someone else who can will step up to the plate. It’s that simple. AZ has to weigh the pros and cons, which is sounds like they have to some degree, and if they feel its not in their interest to keep the Cubs, then the Cubs simply have to move on.
It’s like a guy dumping a girl and the girl saying “Oh, you’ll be sorry, you’ll come crying for me.” Maybe he will, he won’t. But it’s the AZ government’s job to make decisions that benefits the people of AZ the best, and if that means losing the Cubs, then that might be what it means.
Interesting take on "the free market"
An actual free market would have the teams in Arizona building their own facilities and competing with each other for fans, not holding up two states to see who will hand them the most public money.
by the nth on May 4, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
+1
Dead on here. I don’t like public money for ballclubs. I’m a huge sports fan, but that makes little sense to me.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
What about public money to attract businesses in general?
that’s what the Cubs are in Mesa – a huge source of tax revenue directly and indirectly. This is why local governments hire economic development directors and provide incentives to businesses. It’s not so black and white as “public” vs “private”. Ask any ex-politician what happens when they don’t succeed in policies that help local, state, or national economies and the people who depend on them for jobs.
For the record, I would have started Blanco at SS and Theriot at 2B for 2010, and released either Baker or Fontenot.
by DisCUBbobulated on May 4, 2010 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I won't go into the details as I did a few months ago but -
when the whole Cub/Mesa thing came up in the first place I mentioned that for a few years I was directly involved in the public money for stadiums issue in several midwestern cities and minor league towns. I can say from experience that money spent on these ventures is an absolute 100% non-winner for the tax-payers.
Gotta link from what you posted previously?
I’d be interesting in reading that since I don’t remember seeing it before.
Just win the next game...!
are you aware of any cities or towns that basically said "NO"...
…and as a result, the minor league team did in fact leave for greener pastures?
If so, is there anyway of judging whether or not they made the right decision? Something along the lines of tracking where they spent that money instead and what benefits came of it? Also, any ripple effect from team moving? Did other business suffer, shut down, relocate, etc.?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
No. All the towns said yes against our advice.
One major example of the ripple effect (or lack thereof) that I do know of is that of the NY Yankees when they moved spring training from (I think) Ft. Lauderdale to Sarasota. The Yankees claimed that they generated $50 million a year for Ft. Lauderdale each spring. (even the Cubs don’t claim anything that high) The Yankee backers in Sarasota claimed the same – the arrival of the Yankees would mean a 50 mIllion dollar boost to the local economy. The Yankees did end up moving and upon financial review, there was not a noticeable blip to either city’s economy.
Blackhawk24 – Being both at work and computer challenged, I don’t, unfortunately, have the link to the arguments. It was at the time that Mesa made some announcement about the Cubs staying. Sorry.
By the way – there are any number of interesting books about the dubious benefits of public subsidy of sports and convention facilities.
Richmond, VA lost a team (the AAA Braves affiliate) after refusing to provide a new field.
That’s about all i know about it, though.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
A government choosing to build stadium might make it very
21st century American but it doesn’t make it free market. The free in free market doesn’t pertain to governments having the freedom to fund projects for private profit. The free means that businesses are free of government involvement – mostly, of course, in the form of regulation.
Now self-proclaimed free market types are always happy to take public money – shifting public money to private hands has pretty much been our country’s pastime for the past thirty years under both Republican and Democratic presidents and congresses. (Tom Ricketts himself is a product of the church of the free market – the University of Chicago Business School) But just because they do it doesn’t make it a true free market. I’m not sure anyone would really have the stomach for a true Darwinesque sink-or-swim free market. And with good reason.
Not quite
The government CAN be involved in a free market as a consumer as long as it is not coercive involvement. The government, while often not represented as one, is just another business in this case. They are paying for services rendered (the Cubs spring training entourage).
The Cubs are not forced to choose Arizona by the government. Heck, they could have spring ball in Hawaii, Alaska, South America, wherever they wanted, provided the MLB let them. The government has no say in how the Cubs do their spring training activities. That is why it is a free market.
Free Market
Cubs: Hey, we need a place for spring training. We don’t want to build a stadium ourselves, though. Who wants in?
AZ: Hey, we’ll take that.
Cubs: Hey, this stadium isn’t so nice, you got more $$$?
AZ: Sure
Cubs: Ok, been a few more years, we want some more. How about it?
AZ: No, I think we’re out.
Cubs: Hey, we need a nicer place for spring training. Who wants in?
Simply because the Gov’t is funding the stadiums doesn’t make it a non-free market. The Cubs aren’t forcing AZ to do anything, it’s a partnership.
Something has got to be done that makes all sides happy, including me!
I want to continue to enjoy the Cubs in Arizona and no place else.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
C'mon Al - you can't drop a mini-bombshell like this and not explain further
and even a ticket surcharge — but if approved, this surcharge would be one that would benefit only the other 14 Cactus League teams, not the Cubs.
How did they go from a ticket surcharge that may or may not have benefited only the Cubs to now one that definitely does NOT benefit the Cubs?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
That's the only information I have right now.
However, that is one of the proposals on the table.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes, that's what I have heard.
No further details. It may be a quid pro quo for getting other money that would help the Cubs.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I thought they agreed to tax other tourism-related purchases....
like hotel and rental car fees. This whole situation is getting very annoying, and I hate to try to put a scapegoat on the whole thing, but this thing has Jerry Reinsdorf written all over it. No need to lay out chapter and verse about how hypocritical and generally full of crap this cat is; we all know that. But he has to be loving this.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Nope
the add on to the already ridiculous rental car tax was the first thing to be jettisoned. The Cactus League ticket surcharge went soon afterwards.
I was with a friend when he rented a car for the weekend recently. The taxes/surcharge/facility fees were equal to the rental charge. And they wanted to add to it!?!
Politically speaking...
…does Arizona’s controversial I.D. laws play any role in this? Just curious, and definitely not trying to start a political debate (although I cannot believe how asinine and blatantly unconstitutional this law is)….
As a fan of the Cubs heading to Florida for many reasons, I’m selfishly hoping a deal does not get done, but I respect and understand your differing opinion, Al (and others) who want to see Arizona get its ducks in a row and improve the Cubs’ facilities…
Let's not go here.
These are two separate issues.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Without commenting on the merits of the law
The players’ union and a few players and managers have come out against it. If THEY have any say, teams would leave.
But I don’t know how much say those groups will have. It will be more interesting to see if the All-Star Game actually happens in Phoenix or if any Latin players show up.
My guess is that the law is struck down long before that becomes an issue.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
And with that, let's end the political discussion and keep it to baseball.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on May 4, 2010 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
We can end it here but you can bet it will
become a growing part of the overall discussion if the law remains and there is no legislative action regarding the Cubs staying in Mesa
I think it won't really become an issue
until a AA prospect who gets invited to Spring Training runs out to get munchies at 1 a.m. for the veterans and forgets his work visa ends up in jail.
Again, without commenting on the merits, I think the few players who are commenting on it now will largely be ignored. It’s when the reality hits that other players will jump on.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Not sure
But the team holds their passports and P visas in a safe while they’re there for security.
Gonna suck if the law holds up the first time a team loses half a dozen players for a while because someone runs a red light.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on May 4, 2010 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
One small problem with that policy...
under current federal law, all foreign nationals are required to have their visa or green-card with them at all times. As a function of the federal law now and since 1940, they could still be detained regardless of what the Arizona law says.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 4, 2010 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Which is why I believe was a primary reason the AZ law was drafted and passed
To get the Feds to enforce laws that’s been on the books for decades.
Just win the next game...!
Not to bring politics into this...really Al...this is just a factual statement....
The Arizona law is being misrepresented as something it’s not. It does not bring anything new to the table. It’s merely a redundant law which makes federal immigration laws effective and enforceable at the state level. Nothing more, nothing less.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 4, 2010 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions
There is a point about this that is both political and baseball.
Because fans may not want to go to Arizona to support the Cubs in spring training…because of the immigration law. I would bet the front office is at least looking into that factor.
"Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two."
by Sandberg's evil twin on May 4, 2010 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions
This is issue is a baseball issue though
As Worf said, without commenting on the merits of the law … we already have a guy like Adrian Gonzalez who has said that he would boycott the All Star game next year. If he feels strongly about his position, is it that much of a stretch to suggest that where a team plays ST would be a factor as to where he signs his next contract?
by jerry morales rules on May 4, 2010 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Like I said...
…not trying to start a political discussion, but genuinely interested in how the law may impact baseball/the Cubs, which I consider a more “baseball” related topic than a “political” one.
You can ignore the merits or your political stance and just discuss the law by itself in terms of its impact on the Cubs/MLB, in other words….
It's true that it MAY affect baseball in several different ways.
However, until and unless it does, let’s keep the discussion baseball-focused.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
FYI here is an interesting article on MLB players and the law
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-arizonaimmigration042910
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on May 4, 2010 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions
He makes a few interesting points
But the scenario of the baseball player getting detained is absurd. If the driver had a driver’s license, there would be no reason to suspect the passenger of being an illegal.
People that are bending over sideways trying to find some reason to be upset about this law apparently don’t understand the concepts of “probable cause” and “reasonable suspicion”, both of which are court tested and have specific legal meaning.
The misinformation in the media about this new law is amazing. People who don’t live in AZ don’t understand the dynamics here. Something approaching 40% of the population of Phoenix is Hispanic. It is even higher in Tucson. More than 50% of law enforcement is Hispanic. So, there is no way law enforcement will be stopping people just because of their race. That is an ignorant conclusion. They would be stopping half the population!
All this new law does is allow an officer to ask a question when he has reason to suspect someone is here illegally. It bends over backwards to give citizens an opportunity to show that they are indeed citizens. All a ballplayer would have to do is show some I.D. and he would not have a problem. In AZ, you are required to carry I.D., so if he is not carrying one, he better get used to it.
The only negative thing I can see about this law is that it will no doubt create an explosion in the already huge business in providing fake I.D.s and driver’s licenses.
Well one person who lives there does not like it
Augie Ojeda. He has actually made a few statements against the law and how as an American whose family is from Mexico, he thinks it would lead to racial profiling. Here is one of his statements.
“The reserve infielder Augie Ojeda is a United States citizen, born in Los Angeles. He endorsed a statement by the Major League Baseball Players Association opposing S.B. 1070 but said he would have to study the matter further.
"I don’t know the details, but if I leave the park after a game and I get stopped, am I supposed to have papers with me?" Ojeda said. "I don’t think that’s fair."
Ojeda, 35, lives in Arizona year round, in Chandler, a Phoenix suburb. "My neighbor is a policeman," he said. "I asked him what it means, and he said he had no idea. If he doesn’t know, I don’t know who would."
Sheriff Joe already stops people because of their race and this will only encourage him ( at least until he is indicted on corruption charges).
How do you think people will in fact be stopped or asked to provide ID if as we are assured there must be probable cause? If the person is already committing a crime then by all means ask for their ID. If they are doing nothing other than hanging out on the side of the road or working on someones lawn, or out drinking with friends you should not be able to ask for ID, so how exactly does this help stop illegal immigration? There are plenty of laws to go after people who committ crimes but if the underlyig crime is in fact being illegal , how do you check for that without racial profiling?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on May 4, 2010 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions
His problem with this is NOT with the bill or the law...
it’s with law enforcement. That is a completely separate argument.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 4, 2010 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions
And that argument should continue elsewhere, because this is not a political discussion site.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You know how much I love Augie
but, he says it all when he says “I don’t know the details”. I wish others, including politicians and the media would preface their comments with the same disclaimer.
And you should, too. There is no provision in the law to change ANYTHING with regard to the “probable cause” provision as it now exists. Nobody will get stopped that would not have gotten stopped before. Police CANNOT stop someone who is working on someone’s lawn, out drinking with friends or anything else. If you don’t understand that, then please don’t bother expressing an opinion on the law, because yo know nothing about it.
I'll ask again.
Take the political discussion elsewhere.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't want to incur Al's wrath but just try to explain to me
what you think would constitute probable cause to stop someone and ask for their papers other than being involved in some other crime?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on May 4, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Cannot happen
There has to be a crime involved (or traffic violation) or there is no stop. A person cannot be stopped for being suspected of being an illegal alien. There has to be another reason. The bill is clear on that.
Sounds to me like the first Wisconsin seat belt law
Now someone can get pulled over for not wearing a seat belt, but for years after the first law was enacted, a driver had to be pulled over for some other reason. If someone in the car was found to not be wearing seat belts, citations could be issued.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 4, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions
It's that way in AZ
You cannot be stopped for not wearing a seat belt in AZ. If you are stopped for some other reason and you are not wearing a seat belt, you can be cited. It is a secondary violation, cannot be primary. SB1070 is much the same.
Seriously.
If you two don’t stop, I am going to have to close comments on this thread.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Your key word is...
Media. They’ll turn anything inside-out, twist it back-and-forth, run it through the ringer a dozen times, just so the words they blab out of their mouths feeds their agenda. It’s what they do; it’s all they do.
It’s this hysteria made by certain people that is causing MLB players and other associated with the sport of baseball to question the law.
I believe that if Mr. Selig wants to keep things in control with his sport, he will be making sure his front office personnel are working with each and every one of the 30 ball clubs to help with communication.
Just win the next game...!
Regardless of whether or not you want to discuss the immigration law
this is definitely a political issue.
Of course it is.
It can, however, be discussed on its merits, regardless of your political beliefs.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Doubtful
Cubs spring training facilities was in issue long before this law was ever even proposed.
Now, that doens’t mean that it couldn’t start to play into the machinations of this as time progresses.
by jerry morales rules on May 4, 2010 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions
"Selig has pushed to keep the Cubs in Arizona'
Must have missed that. Since I would no go to Spring Training in Arizona if the let’s make all brown skinned people show ID law is on the books, I would actually would not be that upset if they moved. I would not go to Florida, but I would not mind if the Cubs did.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
Nor would I, DS,
…for exactly the same reason. A shame.
An aside to classical music lovers: the Cleveland Orchestra is talking to the city of Miami about moving there since Cleveland has lost more than half of its population over the past decade.
Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville
Seriously?
An orchestra moving? Never heard that one before.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Akin to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim?
The Cleveland Orchestra of Miami, Florida. Because of course, there is also a Miami University in Ohio…
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on May 4, 2010 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions
There used to be a Sea World in Ohio also. Kinda telling it folded...probably because
of Cleveland and the rest of the state losing population and the ensuing ticket sales.
"Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two."
by Sandberg's evil twin on May 4, 2010 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Actually the Miami University in Ohio (1823) is older than the University of Miami in Florida (1925)
and apparently it predates the city of Miami, at least in name. The earliest date I can find for Miami, FL is 1842 when the village of Miami was chartered.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I'm glad I read down the thread.
because I was just about to say this almost verbatim.
As far as I’m concerned, its the Miami Redhawks and the Miami (FL) Hurricanes.
Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.
- John Wayne
1809 is when the charter was established; 1823 is when they admitted first students
I went for the more practical date – i.e. when they opened for business.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Miami was a university before Florida was a state! 1809!
Damn thieves!
First the word Miami
now a whole Orchestra. And hanging chad ballot too. Terrible.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on May 4, 2010 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions
The Cleveland Symphony has a great Oboe player in Triple A
Does Miami get his rights?
"All of us are in the gutter...some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
No...
… he gets traded for a violinist and a trumpet player to be named later.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Carmen Fanzone?
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 4, 2010 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Al
It’s never happened before, at least in my memory, and I’ve been a member of a few of these things (Houston, San Diego, Rotterdam)
Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville
That's not the law
Don’t state incorrect comments and cite it as if were factual.
The Cubs on their own merit are doing what’s best for their organization. Part of that is to leverage the marketplace where they play. Regardless of what laws are passed (BTW, the one people are so up-in-arms-about is nothing but a salvo fired at the Feds to get off their collective asses and do something constructive), the Cubs have to act in their own best interest.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on May 4, 2010 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Funny how the feds inaction wasn't an issue for them...
Until Jan. 20, 2009. I wonder why that was.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on May 4, 2010 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I told you kids I'd pull this car over. Now, do you want to spend all day in the house?
"Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two."
by Sandberg's evil twin on May 4, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Coincidence?
A lot has happened in the past 2 years and this was an issue before the date you’re trying to drive home as purely and only political. The PHX crime rate related to drug smuggling and kidnapping has gone up exponentially recently. If this keeps up, we can all kiss AZ ST good bye in the not too distant future. That will affect everyone in AZ and will have a huge negative affect on ST.
It has got to be the issue in the PHX area the past 2 years, alongside the housing crisis where PHX was one of the hardest hit areas. Those two topics dominated the news each of the last 2 ST’s I was in AZ to see the Cubs.
I for one would love to see the Cubs continue to stay in AZ. My personal situation of having friends and family all over the area allow me to go see the Cubs and them 2 or 3 times every ST.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on May 4, 2010 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agree.
"Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two."
by Sandberg's evil twin on May 4, 2010 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Not only has he pushed for it
He told the politicians in AZ to “get out of the way” and injected the commissioner’s office into the negotiations, promising to “get a deal done”. It is now effectively Selig’s deal, for better or worse.
Keep in mind that Bud has a home in Phoenix.
Non-Flippant Remarks
I really couldn’t care less whether the Cubs had their spring training games in Florida or Arizona. I’ve gone to ST games in both places and universally had a great time. Anyways, I want the Cubs to play hardball and wring every last dollar they can out of any prospective ST city. In particular, I would LOVE to see a TIF implemented in AZ. They’ve sucked so much money out of Chicago’s budget over the years (1/2 billion dollars in this year alone) that I want other cities suffer.
The only goal we should have is to have a state of the art facility with the absolute minimum of the Cubs’ money going to it.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on May 4, 2010 10:41 AM CDT reply actions
will a JPEG do?

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 4, 2010 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps
But in the wrong hands, TIFs are evil. That’s why I hate Mayor Daley so much. He’s got this huge half billion dollar slush fund that he has near total discretion over while simultaneously crying poor. Amazingly, the budget deficit here is almost equivalent to the amount of tax dollars siphoned off by TIFs.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on May 4, 2010 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions
You can probably find a lot on TIFs
on the Chicago Reader’s website. Ben Jevarsky (sp?) has done great reporting on this. TIFs are something that began as a decent idea to bring businesses into economically strapped areas but, in the end, have become just another way to take public money and put it in private hands of the rich and connected.
I Know His Work
I’ve been reading his columns for years now.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on May 4, 2010 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Billionaire vs taxpayers
I fail to see why there should be any public money involved when the owner of the Cubs is worth over 1 billion dollars. Tax payer funded sports complexes are a joke and if I was an AZ resident I would be up in arms over any public support.
100% agreed
I had the same feeling a couple months ago with this whole $84M ST complex thing came up. Yeah, we all know HoHoKam and Fitch Park are behind the times, but if the Cubs want it, they should pony up the money.
Unfortunately, what we believe should be done is not what’s done.
Just win the next game...!
That's fine. As long as you give the Cubs all the tourist dollars paid by
people coming to Arizona to see them play ST baseball. That’s why it’s not as cut and dried as “Make the billionaires build their own stadiums.” When the taxpayers contribute, the facility can be used for the public benefit, not just the teams benefit. It’s a mutual relationship that benefits the team and the taxpayer. When you cede all rights to the owner of the team, you can’t have nearly as much sayso in what goes on in and around the stadium. Jerry Jones has stated many times that he could have completely paid the full amount for the Cowboys new stadium, but the locals wanted to have input on what happens in and around the facility. You don’t get that for free.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on May 4, 2010 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions
It depends on what benefit...
these stadiums can be for the public. I for one simply do not know that.
Just win the next game...!
Since the Cubs
have insisted on controlling the development in and around any new ST facility in Mesa, I fail to see what how this applies.
And anybody who places any stock in Jerry Jones’ statements is foolish.
But Jerry Reinsdorf is a wise soothsayer?
These are all greedy old men trying to get the most that they can from the system. One just happens to align with your opinions on the issue.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
Who said anything about
Jerry Reinsdorf?
And yes, since you brought him up, Reinsdorf is a model owner compared to Jerry Jones.
I said something about Jerry Reinsdorf, but only beacuse your position and his are consistent.
Belittling Jerry Jones while extolling the virtues of Reinsdorf is humorous at best.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
Defending Jerry Jones is *bizarre*
Doing so by bringing up Reinsdorf with no context whatsoever is, well, typical.
Typical of what, exactly?
willie mays hayes’ gloves brought up Jones quite randomly, and you dismissed anybody who puts any stock in his statements outright. Yet you seem to appreciate Reinsdorf . I say, po-ta-to, po-tah-to.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
No
Willie Mays Hayes gloves did NOT bring up Jones randomly. He brought him up in the context of an example of a community being willing to absorb the cost of a stadium in return for controlling surrounding development. It’s a legitimate point, it just doesn’t happen to apply to the Mesa/Cubs scenario, which WMH apparently did not know.
Dragging Reinsdorf into the discussion was indeed random, pointless and gratuitous.
And yes, typical of you.
Agree to disagree.
Reinsdorf has everything to do with this discussion, and is every bit the greedy, decietful man that Jerry Jones is. You only feel his mention is gratuitous because it doesn’t support your take on the issue. Oh well.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
You can disagree all you want
but you have failed to, and cannot, connect the dots in respect to this thread and Jerry Reinsdorf. You say bringing him up doesn’t support my take on the issue…but in reality it doesn’t support or refute anything. It in fact isn’t relevant with this part of the discussion in any way.
But, by all means, don’t let that stop you from posting. Never let relevance, logic or common sense get in the way of your blathering.
Tee hee hee.
And you called ME ‘typical’.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on May 4, 2010 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't like it either, but that's the free enterprise system
To totally simplify the argument, they are claiming that they are bringing in milions and millions of dollars into the economy and they only want a percentage of that back. The governments are thinking “Do I want a percentage of X, or do I want none of X?” Obviously, they take the percentage.
by jerry morales rules on May 4, 2010 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions
It's only 6 weeks of practice and games that don't count.
:P
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Thanks for your input.
However, that’s wrong.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The ":P" makes me think he was kidding.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 4, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, I knew that.
But was just pointing out that it’s wrong anyway.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

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