What differentiates the Cubs from the Contenders?
Much of the discussion on the site centers around whether the Cubs are contenders or not? While the discussion can be clouded with different definitions for the term "contender", I think we can all agree there are a handful of teams in baseball that seem to be contenders year in and year out. Over the last 5 seasons, five teams have made the playoffs in 3 of those 5 years: Philadelphia, St. Louis, NY Yankees, Boston Red Sox, and LA Angels. These teams have combined for 4 of the last 5 World Series and each of those teams has averaged right around or above 90 wins over the last 6 years. If we can all agree that these are the perennial contenders, let's dig in and assess what separates these organizations from the Cubs
I, as many others on the site, have been critical of the Cubs in a number of areas: 1) Developing from within 2) relying too heavily on FA's 3) overpaying in years and dollars 4) giving up too early on prospects, etc. But one of the things I don't think gets discussed enough is the lack of flexibility the Cubs allow themselves, both in payroll and roster construction.
Now all of these things tie in together, so let's take a look at how some the other contenders differentiate themselves from the Cubs.
The first thing I like to look at is how the 5 contenders and Cubs have constructed their rosters, so let's take a simplified look at how the clubs have built their 25 man rosters:
Cubs:
Traded for - 7, Signed as FA - 8, Developed from Within - 10
Total spent in years and dollars on Initial FA contracts (price to acquire): 21 years, $242.8 Million
Average Years: 2.625, Average Total Value $30.35 Million
Traded For - 2, Signed as FA - 9, Developed from Within - 14
Total spent in years and dollars on Initial FA contracts (price to acquire): 9 years, $19.60 Million
Average Years: 1 , Average Total Value: $2.18 Million
Traded for - 5, Signed as FA - 11, Developed from Within -6, claimed off waivers/rule5 - 3
Total spent in years and dollars on Initial FA contracts (price to acquire): 19 years, $76.10 Million
Average Years: 1.72, Average Total Value: $6.92 Million
Angels:
Traded for - 4, Signed as FA - 6, Developed from Within - 15
Total spent in years and dollars on Initial FA contracts (price to acquire): 13 yrs, $145.5 Million
Average Years: 2.17, Average Total Value: $24.25 Million
Red Sox:
Traded for - 6, Signed as FA - 10, Developed from Within - 9
Total spent in years and dollars on Initial FA contracts (price to acquire): 25 yrs, $246.43 Million
Average Years: 2.5, Average Total Value: $ 24.64Million
Yankees:
Traded for - 6, Signed as FA - 8, Developed from Within - 11
Total spent in years and dollars on Initial FA contracts (price to acquire): 23 yrs, $431.25 Million
Average Years: 2.875, Average Total Value: $53.9 Million
Looking over those numbers, the first thing that stands out is the only team that outspends the Cubs based on years and total contract value is the Yankees. This isn't surprising given the high-priced talent they've pursued in FA. The Red Sox are in the same ballpark as the Cubs, but the other 3 teams take much less risk via free agency. The Angels have handed out a few big contracts, but they've developed 60% of their roster from within. While the Phillies haven't built with a lot of guys from within, their FA deals have generally been short-term and small dollar amounts. They've picked up guys off waivers, rule 5, and scrap heap guys signed to short-term deals. The Cardinals are a mix of the Angels and Phillies, developing from within but also relying on scrap heap FA's on short-term deals.
The common thread here is that the consistent contenders are keeping contracts short and/or not spending a lot in FA to build their team.Short-term commitments and low-dollar spending allows flexibility in both payroll AND roster.
The only teams that are in the same ballpark as the Cubs in terms of average dollars spent in FA and average years doled out are the Red Sox and Yankees. So that begs the question: what separates those two teams from the Cubs?
1) Developing elite Up-The-Middle players
2) Tactically spending in FA
3) Maintaining Roster Flexibility
All three of these concepts meld together and this is really the focal point of my post. If you look around in FA their are a few positions that elite players rarely become available and they have one thing in common: up-the-middle positions with defensive value. When's the last elite SS that hit FA? How about the last elite 2B? CF? C? When you think of these positions, players just don't hit FA consistently. Because when teams are fortunate to develop an up the middle star, they lock them up or if they're afraid they'll leave, they move them in a trade.
Hanley Ramirez, Chase Utley, Joe Mauer, Jimmy Rollins, Derek Jeter, Brian McCann, Ian Kinsler, Robinson Cano, Ben Zobrist, Jose Reyes are all recent examples.
If you look at the Red Sox and Yankees they've developed elite up the middle talent in Pedroia, Cano, Jeter, Ellsbury, Posada and then locked them up with their financial resources. The Cubs... well we've just recently developed Geovany Soto as our lone qualifier.
The problem with not developing up-the-middle talent is two-fold, 1) as I've established you're not going to find it in FA, and thus 2) when spending in FA you're forced to spend on assets that are readily available and generally don't age well. Corner OF's or IF's that need to move down the defensive spectrum as they age. This is important because the structure of MLB free agency is that most players hit FA at their age 29-32 seasons, this is generally considered towards the end of a player's peak years. So if you sign a 31 year old to a 3 year deal not only are you likely receiving declining production than what you've paid for (paying on past production), but you'll have to maintain flexibility in order to move them down the defensive spectrum.
This brings me to my final point. The Cubs have tied their hands by not only relying on FA, but by leaving little flexibility to be able to tactically target FA's or leave room for players to develop. Since the Soriano signing, the Cubs have had 1B, 3B, and LF all tied up in long-term contracts. They left RF the last potential position open for exactly 1 year before filling it with Fukudome. Going into 2008 the Cubs had tied up the 4 positions you're most likely to find in FA for the next 4 years, all with players making at least $12 million annually. The Cubs had limited themselves not only from pursuing other FA's (either high priced front line talent, or low-cost values), but from developing players in any of those spots. None of those contracts were rolling off anytime soon and the Cubs were locked in. They then compounded this by signing Bradley in '09 and Byrd in '10. But that's besides the point, let's see how the other big boys handled those 4 positions during the last 5 years.
Now the beauty of the Red Sox and Yankees is they inherently have the advantage of a 5th position (the DH) to allow them more flexibility, so while the Cubs only have 4 positions to play with down the defensive spectrum, The Sox and Yanks get 5. It's a big advantage and both those teams have used it widely.
Let's take a look at the Red Sox and Yankes in those 5 positions back in 2006:
Red Sox
1B - Kevin Youk (year-to-year team control)
3B - Mike Lowell (contract expiring end of '07)
LF - Manny Ramirez (contract expiring end of '08, 2- team options)
RF - Trot Nixon (contract expire end of '06)
DH - David Ortiz (contract expire end of '06, 1 team option)
So the Red Sox had three positions where they could cut bait after '06. This trend continued throughout the next 4 years as Youk remained under team control through '08, and Ramirez was on player options for '09 and '10. Every single year the Red Sox had at least 1 position they could be flexible with and 1 position expiring the next season. Thus if an elite FA who was entering or still in their prime came about. They could make a run at them.
How about the Yankees:
1B - Andy Phillips (team control)
3B - Alex Rodriguez (contract expiring end of '08)
LF - Hideki Matsui (contract expiring end of '09)
RF - Bobby Abreu (contract expiring end of '07, team option for '08)
DH - Jason Giambi (contract expiring end of '08)
The Yankees only had 1 commitment beyond 2008. This allowed them to be big-time players in FA over the years, as they tactically added a guy pretty much each year
In 2008, they signed Johnny Damon to fill a Corner OF slot, sliding Matsui to DH and Giambi to 1B. For that one season they were all tied up, but they had Giambi and ARod expiring + a team option for Abreu.
In 2009, they exercised the option on Abreu, extended ARod, let Giambi walk (opening DH back up). So they now had 1 spot open with Matsui/Abreu coming off the books in '09.
This is how they allowed themselves to be players in FA every year and eventually they waited it out and landed the big stud in FA, entering FA in his prime: Mark Teixeira. Few guys enter FA in their prime, but Tex had just finished his age 28 season, so while he got a massive 8 year deal, 3-4 of those seasons would be in the middle or towards the end of his prime. Unlike the Cubs who when they signed Alfonso Soriano to an 8 year deal it was at the end of his age 30 season, meaning the Cubs were likely to get 1-2 years of prime performance before 6 years of a decline.
This is why FLEXIBILITY is so important both in Payroll and in Roster. This offseason when the Yankees lost Hideki Matsui and Johnny Damon and had spots open in LF and DH, they decided to sign Nick Johnson to a 1 year deal and give cost-controlled Brett Gardner a chance. Continuing to leave them 2 spots available for next offseason. And looking ahead... we have the 2nd player in our generation coming to FA in their prime: Carl Crawford, who will be entering FA after his age 27 season. While the Cubs won't have the flexibility to pursue him, the Yankees are right their ready to pounce.
That's what a great organization does. They don't react year-to-year, they have a long-term plan and give themselves outs. A lot of people can talk about the Yankees outspending everyone, but they're winning because they're allowing themselves to outspend on the cream of the crop because they're keeping roster spots open ahead of time for them. The Cubs meanwhile look at what happened the year before and throw all their money and roster positions to fix the most recent hole, never leaving enough room to tactically take advantage of values in the market (like Bobby Abreu in '09 1 yr $5 million or scrap heap guys like Ryan Ludwick) or tactically prepare for the true stars who are entering FA in their prime.
So the lesson here is pretty simple. The perennial contenders do a number of things significantly better than the Cubs. They develop talent from within, specifically up-the-middle players. They allow themselves upside in contracts by taking chances on short-term contracts with scrap-heap and value players. And they allow themselves roster flexibility to be able to tactically plan ahead.
If the Cubs are going to become a perennial contender they need to change the organizational philosophy and learn from the contending teams around them. These organizations aren't just outclassing the Cubs in scouting/development/fa signings, but they're constructing rosters and budgets that allow them the flexibility to change their strategy if something isn't working. When I complained this offseason of seeing the same mistakes being made (Grabow signing - waste of money, Byrd signing - tying up flexibility), this is why. It's an organizational pattern of tying their own hands and I hoped to see a change with the Ricketts family in charge. Now with all that being said... it's just been one offseason... and there's plenty of reason to hope things can change
Why there's hope (see I'm not always "pessimistic"!)
Tim Wilken's always placed an emphasis on up-the-middle athletes when drafting. As a result the Cubs have begun developing depth in up-the-middle talent. Castro and Soto are at the major league level and can be the foundation of an elite team in the near future. Brett Jackson is an athletic CF (up-the-middle again) and the team is deep with 2B/SS prospects Lee, Flaherty, Lemahieu, etc
In addition to starting to build depth in the premier positions, the organization has a chance to re-create roster flexibility in the next two offseasons.
At the end of this year, Derrek Lee comes off the books and Aramis Ramirez could potentially opt out. At the end of 2011 Kosuke Fukudome's contract comes off. In total over the next two years our salary commitments go from $144 million to just over $60 million.
It just so happens at the end of the 2011 season a plethora of big-time FA 1B are scheduled to hit FA. Prince Fielder (who will have concluded his age 27 season), Adrian Gonzalez (just completed age 29 season), Albert Pujols (completed age 31 season, but arguably greatest hitter of all time). Now mind you, it doesn't mean throwing a ton of money is necessarily the right answer, but the flexibility will be improving. After 2011 we'll only have commitments to Soriano at one of those 4 positions, so even if the 1B FA class isn't the one to target, the Cubs might be able to target other elite players that become available at corner IF or OF positions.
So there's reason for hope and the next two seasons (while they likely won't yield contenders) will be the seasons that determine whether the Cubs can become perennial contenders from 2012 on. If the organizational philosophy changes and the team begins to acknowledge the importance of developing up-the-middle talent and the value of not only payroll but roster flexibility, the Cubs can begin leveraging their financial advantages like the Red Sox and Yankees have (tactically spending on elite FAs, locking up their own to favorable terms, and pouring money into the draft)
If you've read through this much, I appreciate you taking the time. I've been wanting to get my frustrations and my solutions as to how to fix things onto the site for some time. A number of times I've been painted as a pessimist, but I feel very strongly that the organization has lacked a philosophy other than "hope to win the division because we can spend more than the rest of the incompetent organizations (other than STL) AKA win by being the tallest midget". This is the reason I complain that they're building 80-90 win teams, and not consistently 90+ win teams despite having the resources to do so. The fix won't be a quick one, but the pieces and opportunities are in place in the next few years and if the Cubs want to become an elite organization, they'll need to recognize and make the changes to their organizational philosophy as described above.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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I hope Tom Ricketts reads it.
Nice job.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on May 9, 2010 12:13 AM CDT reply actions
good read
I love Marian Hossa and Patrick Kane in totally manly ways. Kinda.
"I’m happy. Whoo!"~ Starlin Castro on being called up to the Bigs.
Excellent Post!
But what sets the Cubs apart and will bring them a championship is the fine work Lou and Jim Hendry of done.
The outstanding way this team was put together!
From the fine bullpen to the wonderful bench,
Lou’s ingame decisions, to the fantastic energy and hustle this team shows every night.
This team has showed it is second to none in everything I have said above!
Looking ahead to tomorrow when 2 of the finest managers on the planet, Lou and Dusty square off yet again! I think all young managers should watch and learn how to run a team. From their fine handling of pitchers, to the fire they show and the way they don’t put up with lack of hustle or steroid use. Yes sir, these men have the players shaking in their boots!
Tomorrow yet another win streak shall begin!
A lot of interesting points
I agree with much of it, but I’ll say the Cubs are different because none of those other franchises have the “win now” pressure on it the Cubs have. (No, not even the Yankees and Red Sox.)
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 9, 2010 1:12 AM CDT reply actions
kind of short sighted
given the Red Sox history right?
Regardless, while I agree the pressure is a factor, I don’t think it’s an excuse. An organization should not be reacting to its fan base when making roster decisions
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Having lived in New York for a time
I can say that as far as fans go, there is just as much if not more pressure on the Yankees to win than on the Cubs. The Cub players might feel more historic pressure, but the Yankee fans absolutely expect and demand to win the whole thing every season.
And as for the Red Sox… They finally just won six years ago, right?
the sox did
but if you take this back 8 years ago they had the same pressure the Cubs have and Theo Epstein began building in just the way I suggested
the result? 6 playoff appearances in the last 7 years, 2 world series titles
pressure isn’t the problem. The red sox had those same issues and got past it.
The problem is the Cubs haven’t produced consistent contenders. A true World Series contender is a team that’s won 92+ games. Sure there are going to be occasional seasons when a team under 92 wins can win the World Series. But over 75% of the time, the World Series champ is a 92+ win team.
The last 7 years during Hendry and Epstein’s tenure, the Red Sox have won 95 or more games 6 times, the Cubs have won more than 90 just once
The only real world series contender we’ve had was in 2008 and that was a team in which a number of players had career years and Soto unexpectedly burst onto the scene as a star. That team was a legit world series contender, but it was one that needed a lot of good fortune to become one.
And therein lies my issue with the Cubs they’re constructing teams that either need a lot of luck to be good enough to be world series contenders OR they need to get lucky in the playoffs and be one of the 25% under 92 wins that happens to get hot at the right time and win the world series
That’s not a winning recipe
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Very well done.
I think, in terms of immediate relevancy, one conclusion we can draw from this is that we SHOULD NOT sign a 1B to a long-term deal this offseason, even if his name is Derrek Lee. I propose we offer Lee arbitration and stand pat until he either accepts or declines. If he accepts, great, we get a very good hitter at a reasonable price without ruining our “roster flexibility.” If he declines, we look to sign a vet to a 1-year deal (Aubrey Huff?) and wait for 2011.
Brad Miller is god.
NY and Boston bought their titles.
Both spent a lot more than the Cubs in their title years. Also the Cubs core of Z, ARam, Sori and Lee hasn’t been as good as the core of the elite teams. The Cubs haven’t had a Carpenter and Pujols, or a Manny and Schilling, or Howard and Utley or ARoid and Sabathia..
Hopefully Z and ARam are off the books soon.
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!
by CubFaninCA on May 9, 2010 2:18 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
"Both spent a lot more than the Cubs in their title years."
Did you even read this fanpost? One of the big points is that Boston hasn’t really outspent the Cubs.
Brad Miller is god.
Who the f--- cares if they bought titles?
I don’t care if the Cubs spent $1 Billion on payroll if it got a ring.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I used to be of the "buying titles is crass" ilk
Until I became aware that it’s been going on as far back as the Federal League. Heck, when Tom Yawkey bought the Red Sox in 1933 he set about buying up Jimmie Foxx, Lefty Grove, Joe Cronin, and Wes Ferrell. Technically the Cronin and Ferrell deal were trades, but those trades were greatly motivated by the Senators and Indians not wanting to pay those guys.
Sittin' on the ledge and sippin' Kool-Aid...
I read every word
what a absolutely brilliant post. Congrats
"Keep pushin till it's understood,
And these badlands start treating us good."
The imminent sale of the Trib
distorted the contracts agreed to by Hendry, In most cases they were severely back end heavy. After leading the division in 03 with 88 wins, by 06 we dropped to last with only 66 victories. That created a tremendous demand for an immediate solution. And, as correctly pointed to above, we were not developing position players in our system.
In 06 Cedeno and Murton were the only home grown starters. In 07 there was only Theriot as Hendry acquired Soriano. DeRosa. Jones and Floyd. Fukudome and Edmonds were added in 08 along with Soto from Iowa. In 09 it was Fontenot from the minors and everyone’s favorite Bradley.
While we will never compete with the payrolls of the Yanks and Red Sox, I believe Wilkens philosophy and the absence of the need for immediate results will eventually allow us to avoid the terrible contracts that are the excuses for not building a credible bullpen and ending up with the Heilmans and Grabows of the world.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
never compete with the Red Sox payroll?
Cubs Red Sox
2010 $144 Million $168 Million
2009 $135 Million $122 Million
2008 $118 Million $133 Million
2007 $100 Million $143 Million
the Cubs payroll where its at the last two-three years has been right in line with the Red Sox. We can certainly compete with them on assets and funds spent. The Yankees are a different story, admittedly. But the whole point of this post is that it’s not a matter of being out-spent, it’s a matter of being out-smarted
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Your original post makes a lot of sense
However, $15-20 million a year does make a difference in payroll. On average, over the last four years, the Red Sox have spent $141 M, the Cubs $124. That’s another Derrek Lee in your lineup.
Your main point above is that you can’t use those dollars to sign a great offensive, up-the-middle player, and with that I completely agree.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
its a difference, i agree
but it shouldn’t be a crutch. Cubs fans like to use it as a crutch when comparing to the Yankees and Red Sox. While its a factor, its not the reason we’re having less success.
the Phillies, Angels, and Cardinals have averaged 15-20 million less payroll than us and they’re cranking out contenders
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions
In essence I am in agreement
with you. However, I consider the circumstances behind our payroll surge significant to the problem. Rather than adding to scouting to build for the long term, Hendry was given lottery money to make the team more appealing to buyers. And since most of the dollars were back ended, the new owners would be on the line for future inflexibility.
To reinforce your contention, the team has 8 contracts over $10M, none of them for up the middle players. The 9th highest salary is $3.3M for Nady. Look at the top 11:
1. Alfonso Soriano 19,000,000
2. Carlos Zambrano 18,875,000
3. Aramis Ramirez 16,750,000
4. Kosuke Fukudome 14,000,000
5. Ryan Dempster 13,500,000
6. Derrek Lee 13,250,000
7. Ted Lilly 13,000,000
8. Carlos Silva 12,750,000
9. Xavier Nady 3,300,000
10. Marlon Byrd 3,000,000
11. John Grabow 2,700,000
A simple question must be asked. Who among those players would you offer a contract next year at the same salary?
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
3 guys would be considered, IMO
Demp, Lilly, & Byrd.
IMO you have to take Byrd @ $3M. You’ve got to conisder Dempster and Lilly.
You can’t even consider signing any of the other guys at the same price.
Nady if healthy would be a no-brainer
I’d also take lee and ramirez back on 1 year deals at that price.
Brad Miller is god.
RIGHT NOW
You’d take Nady again @ $3.3M? Really?
And RIGHT NOW you’d give those prices to Lee and Ramirez? No chance in hell.
Now, I’m of the mind that they’ll both bounce back and produce, at least somewhat, this year… but there’s just no way you can go as high as those salaries. No way…. especially for those two positions, given the entire point of this thread.
Yeah
Those 3 players have struggled this year, but they will bounce back. Nady, if healthy, will give you a .280/.340/.480 line, which is definitely worth 3.3 mil. Lee and Ramirez will each give you .300/.380/.520, which is worth $13 mil for a 1B and $16 mil for a 3B. If we can bring each of those guys back on a 1 year deal at those salaries, I’m doing it. I will not, sign those players to long-term contracts at near those salaries. That’s the point of the thread, not to tie up your payroll with too many long-term commitments.
Brad Miller is god.
Really good piece.
It is this kind of Hedry designed financial inflexibility that has me doing horrible unspeakable things like defending Soriano being the first baseman for the last four years of his contract. Not an option I love in any way. But don’t do it, and with nothing ready at that position in the minors, you’re going to be over paying at first again and continue the same pattern.
If Hendry goes I do hope Wilkins is retained because there does finally seem to be position player hope from the minors.
This is great work, DCF.
I only hope that the new ownership doesn’t kowtow to the impatience and rabidity of the fan base and takes a measured, rational approach to building this thing. We’re already seeing the possible future with some of our young talent (Wells, Soto, Colvin, Castro), and a smart plan from ownership and the GM could go a long way to unravelling the mess we’re in.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
by Goodie1969 on May 9, 2010 9:33 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Another point to add to your list
The Cubs have not been willing to trade prospects as readily as NY and BOS have. The Angels don’t deal anybody, and the Phillies have usually held onto their prospects (note them dealing Lee for prospects before they were willing to trade prospects for Halladay). So there are multiple ways to be successful. But as the Cubs develop an advantage in signing the best Korean and Taiwanese kids, they can leverage that by dealing some of their draftees when they are at peak value. Hendry has been reluctant to trade a top ten prospect until they struggle in the majors.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
i didn't touch on that specifically
but that’s one of the reasons i drew the line on INITIAL FA signings, because guys you trade for or extend are products of your farm system. You’re either trading players to get them or developing successful players from within
The Cubs have traded a lot of their prospects in recent years, they just haven’t traded them for elite talent of late. (Note, they did do this for Aramis/DLee which is a large part of the reason they improved in the early part of this past decade). Of late they traded Pie for Heilman. They traded Kevin Hart, Jose Ascanio and Josh Harrison for Grabow/Gorzelanny. They traded Scott Moore for Steve Trachsel
The problem hasn’t been a lack of willingness to trade prospects, its been a shortage of desirable prospects and poor targets in acquisitions when trading them
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions
i should also note
this is another branch off the main point but it ties in. When you’re signing a lot of mid-level FA’s, you’re giving up draft picks as well, which hurts the re-stocking of the farm system. This is another reason why when you delve into FA you want to make sure its for the elite guys
In addition you should have some willingness to let guys walk so you can get extra compensation picks. The Cubs have given away far more compensation picks in Jim Hendry’s tenure than they’ve received
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Miguel Tejada and Carlos Beltran.
It all goes back to Hendry’s decisions not to pursue Tejada after 2003 and (especially) Beltran after 2004. The team had serious deficiencies at SS and CF, later demonstrated that had the resources to pursue both of these players, and consciously decided not to pursue either.
Tejada, entering his age 30 season, got 6 years $72M, or $12M annually.
Beltran, entering his age 28 season (!!!) got 7 years $119M, or $17M annually.
Shortstop continued to remain a black hole in the Cubs’ roster in 2004 (we actually started Rey Ordonez at one point), and the team ultimately acquired Nomar Garciaparra, who was also age 30, and started paying him “Tejada money”.
(As an aside, can you imagine the 2004 team with Tejada at SS and, say, Damian Miller at C instead of Michael Barrett? Capable C defense and an OPS+ greater than 75 from the SS position?)
After 2005, the Cubs gave Neifi Perez a 2-year $5M deal, and offered Rafael Furcal a deal worth more annually than what Tejada had received – further establishing that the Cubs could have matched BAL’s offer, if they’d opted to so so.
After passing on Beltran, OF became even more of a sucking chest wound. I like to black out those years from memory, but Hendry paid millions of dollars to acquire Jeromy Burnitz and Jacque Jones, and traded 3 pitchers for a slap hittin’ CF who had averaged an 87 OPS+ for his entire career, only topping 100 once in 6 years.
Finally, after 2006’s bloodbath, we signed Alfonso Soriano, entering his age 31 season, to a deal worth 8 years and $136M, and announced that he’d be our new centerfielder. This looks so much like a do-over for the Beltran mistake that I can’t really see any other explanation.
Soriano’s misadventures in CF lasted about a week, and his signing immediately turned into another interminably long deal given to a poor-defense corner position player.
In my opinion, Hendry’s current roster trouble all goes back to the decisions to pass on Tejada and Beltran — two “up the middle” free agents who could have made a positive difference. Tejada was a massive, massive bargain – a 5+ win player during his O’s contract. And even though Beltran has battled injuries, in the first 5 years of his deal, Beltran has provided 2 years of 7 WAR, and one over 5 WAR, while playing excellent defense. Even while missing half of 2009, he was a 3.1 WAR player.
I know that I’m kind of hard on Hendry around here, but when you really revisit his decisions over the last decade, it’s just amazing how badly he’s misfired, given the resources in his arsenal.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on May 9, 2010 9:58 AM CDT reply actions 7 recs
Good post D98
Don’t feel too bad about hammering Hendry all the time, because I do the same thing to Andy MacPhail.
The Cubs front office during the post-strike era seemed especially sensitive to the impatience and rabidity of the fan base that Goodie mentioned. MacPhail and GM Ed Lynch were masters at acquiring middling veteran talent year after year to keep the team competitive within the division. In fairness, they did attempt to introduce prospects like Kevin Orie, Terry Adams, and Steve Rain. But without a solid development system in place – and also without elite talent on the major league roster that could have been offered up to restock the farm – the young guys fizzled out.
Another factor that became apparent in retrospect was Andy MacPhail’s hesitation to spend. Robin Ventura was passed over for Gary Gaetti, and more recently Carlos Beltran was passed over for Jeromy Burnitz (as D98 points out). The Tribune would have been willing to open the coffers if the case was made for more payroll, but expecting MacPhail to tolerate a ~$100M budget would be like expecting Kim Jong Il to encourage Twitter and Facebook.
Wise spending coupled with a strong scouting/development system will truly put the Cubs in the same company as the Yankees and Red Sox. Dart-Drew makes the case that the Cubs have taken baby steps in that direction, so let’s hope those turn into giant strides.
All in all and excellent thread! Please read this Mr. Ricketts!!
Sittin' on the ledge and sippin' Kool-Aid...
You nailed it...
…and this all goes back to one thing; Hendry lacks the judgement to make enough right calls to build a consistent winner, even with a payroll that is tops in the NL.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
rec'd - a well-reasoned analysis
Are you looking for a GM job yourself? I am a little stunned that a fan would spend this much time analyzing the situation, since a fan has no power to implement.
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
baseball is a very difficult business to break into
and the people who get those jobs are often far smarter than me (statisticians, phds, mbas from elite business schools, etc). I love baseball and I love analyzing it. It’s part of the reason I write for a fantasy website, but I don’t have the resume, or the will to grind out 6-7 years of super low salary jobs to work my way up through an organization. If an opportunity presented itself I’d certainly consider going through that grind, but its a grind just to even get yourself in front of mlb teams and it’s not something I’ve pursued.
I do have some acquaintances in baseball front offices, but they’re still grinding their way up the ladder.
In general though I think about these things because i love the game and I love the Cubs and I’ve craved an understanding of why the Cubs don’t succeed. 100+ years isn’t just bad luck, it’s bad operations. I believe after thinking about it for a longtime i have some insight into the mistakes they’ve made
I appreciate the compliments though and while I do believe I have the capacity to conceptualize how to build an elite team, i recognize it takes a lot more skill, talent, and experience than i have to actually implement those philosophies successfully
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Are you saying
that the Cubs have already shifted to the development-up-the-middle plan and what remains to be seen is whether or not they also seek payroll flexibility?
And are you still contending that Byrd ties up flexibility? Byrd still seems to me to be the type of move you make to give this club a chance if they out-perform expectations relative to their opponents without hurting long-term flexibility. At his price, Byrd will be a fine 4th OF (since he hits both LH and RH and should be able to passably play all OF positions), if not a starter through the contract. He’s also potentially movable.
Overall, as we’ve discussed before, especially in the context of the Piesco, this is in general sound theory. I do continue to caution that people don’t become doctrinaire about it, thereby undoing the concept of flexibility by becoming inflexible on the concept itself. In other words, there are times to go all in. And there’s no way to be sure that going all in will lead to winning.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
I'm saying
ROSTER flexibility is something that needs to be incorporated into the organizational philosophy (assuming there is some sort of philosophy). Payroll flexibility, development, fa spending, etc are all things that are discussed around here often and those things do need improvement as well. I don’t think people pay enough attention to maintaining roster flexibility.
My comments about Byrd were more of a throw-away, but yes I think his contract is an example of one that doesn’t incorporate the value of flexibility in the roster. For example, If Byrd was not signed the Cubs could potentially pursue Carl Crawford (a truly elite player entering FA in his prime) as either a CF or as a corner OF that would require shifting Fukudome back to CF for a year. They could do this because they would have 1 OF spot open next year
By signing Byrd they left no OF slots open this year or next year. So for two years the Cubs have no spots to pursue a FA or develop talent from within. They’ve now prevented themselves from either developing cheap talent from within to fill that role OR go after elite FA talent, by tying themselves to a short-term fix on a mid-level FA for a non-contending team.
Had they not signed Byrd, they would’ve left themselves with 1 spot open this year, 1 spot open in 2011, and 2 spots opening in 2012. That flexibility would allow them to do a number of things: 1) develop an OF from within for a year or 2) take chances on short-term (1 year deals) with scrap heap guys and while doing that it would give them a year to figure out if they had a long-term solution or if they wanted to pursue an elite FA like Crawford.
Now lets say all of that doesn’t work out, what have the lost out on? Well, they don’t get Byrd’s production for 3 years and for the first 2 of those years they weren’t legitimate (92+ win) contenders anyway.
What did they gain by not signing Byrd? They gain the chance to evaluate whether they have cheap OF options for the future. So let’s say they don’t find anybody, and they don’t land Crawford. Well they still have a couple OF options open if someone else becomes available via trade or as a FA.
My point is guys like Byrd come around almost every year. Hitching your wagon to those guys consistently, even if you’re getting good value on the contract, limits your ability to develop from within or get the legitimate studs.
Are their times to go “all-in” as you suggest? Perhaps, but I don’t necessarily agree with that either. If you only have 1 position available in your OF for the next 2-3 years, you better be sure that player you’re committing to is a difference-maker.
As I showed with the Red Sox and Yankees, they always had guys expiring so they always had the flexibility to make a move, give a guy from the org a shot, etc. They were never tied up for more than 1 year. The Cubs, meanwhile, have consistently tied themselves up for 2 and 3 years at a time with slightly above average OF’s. As a result, you’re getting a slightly above average team that is never developing players from within or getting elite FA’s in their prime
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I just can't see how Byrd's teeny contract blocks anything.
His contract is just like DeRosa’s, which didn’t stop us from playing Fontenot, or if you prefer a more pessimistic comp, like JJ’s, which didn’t stop us from acquiring Fukudome. And in both those cases, we acquired useful talent.
But let’s ask this instead – would you disagree that Soriano was a “difference-maker”? Sure, there are plenty of things to dislike about his overall talent set, but he was a top ten WAR guy in 2007, and probably the difference between us making the playoffs that year or not.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
by DGU on May 9, 2010 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes and No
was Soriano likely a difference-maker for 3-4 years, sure. I can see that and if i was a contender who hadn’t locked up other spots in the OF or 1B, I could see giving him a 5 year deal and being ok with it.
But at age 31 would I have given him an EIGHT year contract, hell no. You were likely to get 2-3 good years and 5-6 mediocre to bad ones (or years where you certainly were going to lose a lot of value on his contract). If you’re making deals like that you’re basically tying yourself to a very short window
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Obviously the 8 year part of his contract is bad (and not the only bad part)
But it’s worth noting that most of the clubs you’ve named have made contracts which they knew were likely to be bad at the end – Posada, A-Rod, Ortiz, Lugo, Howard, Holliday.
I think one of the things analyses comparing the Cubs to these other clubs continues to do is gloss over the Pavanos, the Renterias, the Wily Mos, the passing over of Carlos Pena, etc.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
by DGU on May 9, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
the difference
1) those teams made those bad long-term deals while they were in the midst of serious world series contention
2) those teams had outs, either in the AL with the DH or in the NL where guys were already far down the defensive spectrum (like howard at 1B)
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions
07-08 wasn't serious contention?
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
by DGU on May 9, 2010 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions
08 was the only year
the team had a legitimate world series contender, and the only reason they did was a series of completely unexpected seasons
1) Soto going from non-prospect to ROY
2) Dempster going from failed closer to elite SP
3) Mike Fontenot playing like Chase Utley
4) Jim Edmonds being picked up off the scrap heaps and playing like it was the early part of the decade
everything that could go right did for that team
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions
I disagree with your definition of serious contender
The 06 Cards won 83 games and won a World Series. If you can get into the playoffs, you’re a contender. There’s a lot more variance in MLB than in other sports. You never know when your division will crap out and you can squeak in (unless you’re in the AL East). I agree that aiming to put together a 90-win team year in, year out is a good goal, but it’s not like the NBA where putting together a .500 team is a bad thing. In the NBA, a .500 team will NEVER win a title, but in MLB, a team with .500 talent can win 85-90 and squeak in the playoffs. And once you do that, you got a 1/8 shot at winning it all.
Brad Miller is god.
i've done the analysis on it
and posted it here many times before. The 06 cards are an aberration
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I disagree with a lot of your logic.
But I surely agree with this point. The word “fluke” in the dictionary should have a picture of the ’06 Cards next to it.
"Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two."
by Sandberg's evil twin on May 10, 2010 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions
difference between making the playoffs in '07
that team won 85 games
EIGHT Y FIVE
while they made the playoffs, they sure as hell weren’t a legitimate contender EVEN WITH Soriano posting a near 7 WAR season, that’s what made the contract so silly. We weren’t even close to being legit contenders. And when you’re paying a FA that’s not in his prime and elite players contract, you have to do it when you have the flexibility (we did at that time, we then gave it away in later years) and when you’re close. The 2006 Cubs weren’t close
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions
This is where you and I continue to differ
and there’s probably not much point recovering old ground, but I think it’s worth making the playoffs anytime you can.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
by DGU on May 9, 2010 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions
not at the expense
of the next 7 seasons
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions
and not when 98% of the time
you’re not going to be good enough to get into the playoffs
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
It's not good to get into the playoffs
if you weren’t likely to get into the playoffs.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
by DGU on May 9, 2010 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions
if you're an 85 win team
you miss the playoffs in 98-99% of those seasons
buying a team to win 85 games and hoping they get lucky in the playoffs isnt the type of organizational philosophy i’d like to sign up for
thanks
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions
It worked for the Cardinals in 06.
I’d rather put together a team that wins 90, obviously, but if the options are put together a .500 team and put together a 70-win team, you go with the .500 team. And your 98-99% is just way off.
Brad Miller is god.
not if the .500 team
sacrifices years in the future
if the choice is 70 win team for 1 year and then flexibility to build a contender for the next 5-6
or .500 team for the next 3-4 years, you sacrifice the 1 year
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions
just 2
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions
What?
Building a team to win 83 games and hoping they make the World Series is lunacy.
Secondly, Any GM or manager should be putting a team together to either win the WS or build for the future, trying to win 70 games or go .500 as a philosophy is just plain idiocy. You will definitely fail with it.
"Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two."
by Sandberg's evil twin on May 10, 2010 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree
But if you can make a move that improves you from a 75-win team to an 80-win team short-term but DOESN’T hurt you long-term, you make it. And I think the Marlon Byrd signing is an example of that because I don’t think it hurts us long-term.
Brad Miller is god.
Also, for all we know, the Cubs may be a contender in 2011, and Byrd may be the difference between an 90-win team and a 93-win team that year
Or we may be able to move Byrd for prospects that help us long-term some time between now and the end of his contract.
Brad Miller is god.
i think its pretty fair
to say if the team won 83 last year and is worse this year and is only getting older and losing players… its going to get worse next year
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I actually meant to say 2012, but it's not inconceivable for an 80-win team to become a 90-win team over the course of a year.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 10, 2010 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions
usually that happens
when the team is getting closer to their peak years not further away from them
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 11, 2010 7:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Or when a team pulls off a couple of really good trades
And it’s not like we’re completely devoid of youth either.
Brad Miller is god.
we're devoid of players in their peak years
we have a barbelled approach currently to roster construction with regards to age
Soto is the only position player on the entire team in his peak 26-29 (i guess Baker is 29)
Wells, Gorz, Marshall, and Marmol are the only guys on the pitchers side that are in that range. That’s just 6 players on a 25 man roster
and not so surprisingly those are some of the guys that are having the best years for the Cubs
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 11, 2010 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions
The Cubs are actually average in terms of age
Take a look
Granted, a lot of our younger guys play less important roles than our vets. The decline of Fukudome, Soriano and Dempster will outweigh improvements from Berg, Caridad, and Colvin, but still, you’re overstating your point in regards to the Cubs’ age.
Brad Miller is god.
average age
is irrelevant
we have less players in their prime years
we have a barbelled approach, a lot of really young guys and a lot of old guys
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 11, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions
If we had 12 teenagers, and 12 40-year-olds, our average age would be 28!
Average age doesn’t matter.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I disagree that signing Byrd blocks us from signing Crawford
Byrd is definitely movable and Fukudome probably is too, if we’re willing to eat a little salary. If we really want to go after Crawford, we’ll be able to.
Brad Miller is god.
we won't go after Crawford
because we have Byrd/Soriano/Fukudome under contract, i feel pretty confident in that statement
all that “he’ll be moveabe” talk is worthless when wooing a big name FA. You dont have the time to move all those pieces and then pursue the big fish. YOu have to be there from the start. Look how long it took the Cubs to move guys people have considered movable in the past? It takes time to shift all these pieces around
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions
We could go hard after Crawford and then worry about moving Byrd
Not saying they will, but that they could.
Brad Miller is god.
And I'm sure if you look hard enough, you'll find examples of the Red Sox/Yankees doing something similar
Especially the Yankees
Brad Miller is god.
i walked through the recent history of those two teams....
already…
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
then you've erased all his value
because teams know you have to move him (or Fukudome)
and the bottom line is: If you have the intent of going after Crawford (who everyone knew would hit FA after this year), you don’t pursue byrd last year knowing you’re going to have to trade him 1 offseason later, that’s stupid
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
"then you've erased all his value, because teams know you have to move him"
As long as there’s more than 1 team willing to acquire him, they will bid against each other and we will get fair value. Byrd makes us a better team this year. That’s why he’s a good pickup, even if we trade him next year.
Look at it this way. Next winter, we’ll almost certainly be able to find at least one team willing to pick up Byrd for nothing. Let’s say we do that and sign Crawford. Now how is signing Byrd and benefiting from his production for one year worse than the alternative of not having Byrd? We end up with Crawford either way.
Brad Miller is god.
your scenario isn't realistic
if it happens i’ll concede
but i feel pretty confident the team isn’t trading byrd and signing Crawford
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Even if we hadn't signed Byrd, we probably wouldn't have broken the bank for Crawford anyways
We’d still have Soriano locked up for a huge amount at Crawford’s best defensive position. Soriano’s the albatross preventing us from going after FAs. Byrd’s just a blip compared to him. But it would’ve been worth it if we’d won a world series in 07 or 08…
In any case, I get your argument, but it’s financial commitments that prevent teams from going after FAs, not roster commitments. And if George Steinbrenner was running the Cubs, we’d go after Crawford, Byrd or no Byrd.
Brad Miller is god.
that's just not accurate
based on the way teams have operated in the past….
roster flexibility impedes teams from making moves ALL THE TIME
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Are you really saying that the Cubs would target Carl Crawford if and only if they hadn't signed Marlon Byrd?
I dont’ believe that for one second.
Brad Miller is god.
Also I don't buy that the Yankees and Red Sox think all these moves through to the extent that you claim they do
The Yankees were able to sign Teixeira primarily because Giambi came off the books that year. Don’t tell me that they had that foresight when they signed Giambi in 2002. And the reason they had the “roster flexiblity” to sign Sabathia and Burnett last summer wasn’t because they set it up that way. It’s because they FAILED to develop/trade for quality starting pitching of their own.
Brad Miller is god.
you're isolating 1 piece of the puzzle
and extrapolating it
Byrd isn’t the reason the Cubs can’t sign Crawford alone. But Byrd was the last free spot the Cubs had. So instead of having 1 spot open for 2010, 1 spot open for 2011, and 2 spots open for 2012, the signing gave the Cubs 0 spots open for 2010, 0 spots open for 2011, 1 spot open for 2012
He alone isn’t the reason, but the spot given to him was the last one open to potentially develop a player from within or target a big name FA
Same thing with the Yankees. I walked through how they structured their OF/3B/1B/DH commitments to expire in staggering years. As a result they always had the flexibility to make a move. Now if you want to say that’s sheer coincidence I can’t 100% disprove it, but the Yankees front office said for years they didn’t make the Johan Santana trade because they were eying CC Sabathia as a FA. So i think there’s plenty of evidence to suggest these teams operate just as i described
Now the Yankees have bridged their rotation from the Pettitte/Mussina days to the Sabathia/Burnett days and when Pettitte retires they’ve been able to work Hughes or Chamberlain in slowly to hold down another rotation spot. (while letting Wang go – internally developed player they had on year-by-year control) to have the room to make the Vazquez trade
Now next year Vazquez and Pettitte expire, while Hughes is on year-to-year control. Just another example of how the team values roster flexibility
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 8:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Sorry but it's $, not roster spots that keeps us from going after Crawford.
Ignore Byrd. Between fukudome and soriano, we have $30+ million tied up in two outfielders. Even if Byrd was gone and they had an empty roster spot, they still wouldn’t be willing to commit another $15+ million to that outfield.
And as to how the Yankees and red sox look at things, I’m willing to believe that roster flexibilty is a factor in their decision making, but I wouldn’t call it a limiting one. Let’s say hypothetically that the Yankees had Byrd, fukudome, and soriano as their starting OF. Let’s say each was signed through next year at a reasonable salary, between 5 and 8 million. Do you think Steinbrenner would hesitate to go after Crawford and make fukudome or Byrd a 4th OF? I don’t think so.
Brad Miller is god.
if thats the case
and its money, not roster spots
then why have both teams (yanks/sox) always had at least one spot opening up each offseason
why do you think this is pure coincidence?
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Way easier to do with the DH
I think you acknowledged this, but both the Red Sox and the Yankees would have run into major flexibility problems without having the DH. That being said, I do think the Red Sox have made an effort at roster flexibility, but I think the Yankees are an unfair comparison because their payroll is just so far and above anyone else’s. As an example, I don’t doubt that they might have gone after Teixeira even if they still had Giambi under contract for one additional year.
yes and no
perhaps with 1 year remaining they’d recognize the spot opened up soon and they could eat the contract for 1 year. All the big market teams can do this for 1 year
The Cubs have tied themselves for 2 and 3 years up at a time, that’s the difference
as for the Yankees perhaps not valuing flexibility, I think this offseason was a perfect example, instead of going after Holliday they elected to give the LF job to Brett Gardner, in order to keep that one spot open long-term in case they need it , and they elected to sign Nick Johnson to a 1 year deal, now they’re staggered in their contract structure again
in 2011 Johnson comes off
in 2012 Swisher comes off
in 2013 Granderson comes off
They always have a spot opening
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions
By that logic
The Cubs could eat Dome’s contract next year and sign Crawford. Also, at the Yankee’s level, a contract like Byrd isn’t significant enough to consider a commitment that inhibits moves that you want to make. I agree with your overall point that the way to build a baseball team is from within, rather than via free agency, but my main quibble is that you are basically criticizing the Cubs for making bad moves in free agency, whereas I think their biggest problem is a complete failure to develop any star caliber talent from within since 1990 (perhaps excluding Sosa). I think that their failures in development caused the free agency binge, not vice versa. I greatly enjoyed 2007 and 2008 (despite the playoff failures) and those years would not have happened without the signings AND I don’t see how the Cubs would have been in a better position for 2009, 2010 and 2011.
i'm criticizing their unwillingness to value flexibility
bad FA signings, poor development are part of the issue. I recognized that in my initial paragraph and we’ve all hashed those issues out a million times
i dont think anyone else has ranted and raved about flexibility in roster and the point of the post was to shed some light on why i believe its been an overlooked component of our lack of success
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Flexibility is very important
Despite all the argument back-and-forth, I agree with your over-arching point (and recc’d your fanpost) that roster flexibility is important and is often underlooked aspect of building a championship team.
I was more defending individual moves (and attacking the comparison to other franchises) that despite a foundation of young, cost-controlled talent allowed the Cubs to contend in a period where their farm system was bereft of elite prospects. Moving forward, preservation of flexibility will be very important and will allow the Cubs to build a championship-level team with hopefully a foundation of Soto, Castro, Vitter, Cashner and Jackson.
Was flexibility....
Was flexibility really the reason they didn’t sign Holliday? I think you are projecting your own thoughts onto the Yankees. Besides, look at the Cubs, shapes up about the same as the Yankees:
2010: Lee (maybe Ramirez)
2011: Fukudome (maybe Ramirez)
2012: Byrd (maybe Ramirez)
they cited as much
in interviews and there’s been other cites that have written about this as well
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-yankees-win-curve/
as for comparing it to the Cubs, the problem is are they willing to move an OF to 1B? If not, then they’ve locked up the OF flexibility for a year in which a premier FA is available just for that spot
If they’re willing to move Soriano to 1B then I’d agree with you. I don’t get the impression they are though. I get the impression they’ll extend DLee
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Ugh
Well, I guess maybe instead of re-hashing the past, where I think hindsight is 20/20 and most of the moves before the Bradley/Gregg off-season were defensible, it is better to talk about what should be done going forward. Signing DLee to anything more than a 1-year deal is a mistake in my opinion. I do actually like the Byrd signing. He offers flexibility in that he can play all 3 positions and I really don’t think that his contract is so expensive that he cannot be made the 4th OF. The emergence of Colvin has made the need for a 4th OF moot, but nobody saw that coming last year.
colvin emergence
part of the good “luck” that a lot of people mention when referencing the good teams is made because the opportunity was there for it to happen
we’ll never know how good Colvin is as an everyday player unless one of our OF’s gets hurt OR we have to get rid of one, because we’ve locked up the OF for 2 years
had we allowed ourselves to get lucky by having a spot for the kid, perhaps we’d be in a better position. That’s kind of the whole point of my post
Instead of signing Byrd to a 3 year deal why not sign someone else this offseason to a 1 year deal? To me it didn’t matter the difference in player because we’re not contending this year anyways… so i’d rather have the spot available in case someone like Colvin blossomed all of the sudden
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Fair enough
I was for signing either Ankiel or Podsednik, but Byrd has been such a nice surprise so far and his money is limited that it is hard to criticize the move. As much as some people hate to admit it, I think that we need to try Soriano at first base. It would solve so many problems if he could fit in there.
i think where we differ
is you seem to derive some legitimate joy out of the difference between an 83 win team and an 80 win team. To me they’re the same… non-contenders
i’d rather have the open roster spot for next year than to win 3 extra games and still miss the playoffs this year and be tied into a guy for 2 more years when the roster isn’t likely to get good enough that his extra 2-3 wins really matter
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't be ridiculous
I am not valuing the difference between being an 80 and 83 win team. If things had worked out the right way, Byrd COULD have been the difference between making the playoffs and not making the playoffs. I would argue that Byrd is closer to being the difference between us getting to the playoffs than not having Byrd is closer to getting us to a World Series.
That article isn't really about flexibility
It basically says that the Yankees are so good (mainly b/c of spending money) that they don’t have to sign another high-priced player. My main point with all this discussion about the Yankees that they cannot really be emulated. If there is one takeaway from their success I would point more to their ability to develop talent rather than to maintain roster flexibility.
"then why have both teams (yanks/sox) always had at least one spot opening up each offseason"
My answer to that is that it’s pretty hard not to have at least one spot opening up each offseason. When you count the DH, 3 OF spots and 2 corner IF spots, that’s 6 guys. For a team to have all 6 of those spots locked up for 2 consecutive years is pretty hard to do.
Brad Miller is god.
yet the cubs have managed to do it
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Well Lee comes off the books this year, but yeah the entire OF is locked up
But as you’ve pointed out, the DH helps a lot. The DH sucks. I really don’t have an opinion one way or another whether the DH is a good or bad thing, but it’s ridiculous, IMO, that the rules are different between the two leagues.
Brad Miller is god.
Cubs didn't have a corner spot
roll off either of the last 2 years, now they don’t have an OF spot roll off for 2 years
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Well we had Lee and Ramirez
There aren’t 5 better third-basemen than Rami, and while not having Lee would’ve allowed us to go after Teixeira, when we signed Lee to his deal, he was the equivalent of Teixeira, so it’s hard to fault either of those moves.
Brad Miller is god.
corner OF
is what i was referring to
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 11, 2010 7:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Well in that case, it all basically comes back to one move: the Soriano signing
When you have a guy locked up for 8 years, it’s hard to be flexible.
Brad Miller is god.
+1
There is a lot more luck involved in building rosters and signing free-agents than is admitted in the opening post. I think the Red Sox this year are perhaps an example of the type of long-term thinking that DCF advocates, but the Yankees are not a good comparison.
you're missing the point
of the entire post….
yes there is luck involved, it is not easy to plan ahead and identify who will be available and when and if you can get them.
but the teams that are able to capitalize on that good fortune are the ones that allow themselves the FLEXIBILITY to be able to do it (both through payroll and roster).
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Well....
Yankees basically have no limit on payroll flexibility, so don’t include them.
I think the key here is developing your own superstar caliber players that can be cost-controlled. To me that is the distinguishing factor between the contenders and everyone else. I think going forward your strategy makes sense, but I am curious as to what you would have done in the 2007 and 2008 off-seasons.
its hard to be fair with this right?
i mean hindsight is 20-20…. so I could probably script a plan now that would’ve worked perfectly
i will say if you look back at my track record on what the Cubs did in those offseasons, you might get an idea of what i believed in:
2007:
I hated the Soriano signing. Hated it. Thought it was way too many years for just an above average player who had question marks over his age and was likely to decline through much of the contract
I LOVED the Lilly signing, I was a big advocate of targeting AL pitchers to the NL. I thought we needed innings after struggling through a 2006 rotation loaded with young guys being overworked. I thought his stability to the rotation was a great addition at a fair price. Heck I advocated for Lilly during the 2006 season as a FA target
I was indifferent to the DeRosa signing. I thought it was a bit rich and was concerned about him getting paid off a career year, but liked the flexibility he brought to the club
I hated the Marquis signing. I thought it was ridiculous to pay that much and commit that many years to a guy i viewed as a replacement level pitcher.
In 2009:
Perhaps the thing i’m most known for on the site is my defense of Felix Pie and my frustration over his handling
I would’ve inserted him as my CF in 2008 and never even looked at anyone else. So for 2009 i wouldn’t have ever considered Bradley because Fukudome would’ve been my RF and there wouldn’t have been a need for him
I would’ve largely left things as is. I think ‘09 was the year Demp was given his extension. I was critical of that at the time as I thought it was too many years and too high a price for a guy who had 1 heckuva year that was aided by some great luck. I was really wrong on the Demp extension though, he’s going to make that one look pretty good.
I probably would’ve tried to replace Dempster with a low-cost scrap-heap guy. That probably would’ve back-fired, but given what happened with the ‘09 team not sure that we’d be worse off in the long run
I would’ve offered Wood arbitration and seen if he had taken it. If not I would’ve let him walk for the deal the Indians gave him.
I wouldn’t have dealt DeRosa. Basically I would’ve kept as much in-tact as I could without sacrificing more big-long-term commitments
hope that gives some clarity….
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
My problem
First, couldn’t agree more on Pie.
That being said, the only thing that I see the team as you constructed it doing is saving the Tribune Company money. I don’t see how your proposed moves would have helped the Cubs contend in 2007, 2008, 2009 or 2010.
You also didn’t talk about the extensions to Lee, Ramirez and Zambrano or the signing of Fukudome. I think that most agreed that the Soriano signing was a mistake at the time, but I also think that overpaying Soriano by $4-5 million is not that big of a deal without the other huge underperforming contracts that I mentioned above. Also, my main point is that what is crippling the Cubs flexibility is not free agency signings, but the failures in development that caused the free agency signings.
again
i couldn’t fairly come up with a wholesale plan without the benefit of hindsight influencing it
I wouldn’t have extended Z, i was fine with the Lee and Ramirez extensions (though i didn’t like the player option Ramirez was handed)
overpaying Soriano in dollars wasn’t the big deal, it was the years (if you’re ignoring the fact altogether that the 2007 team really wasn’t much of a contender even with adding Soriano so the marginal value of his FA signing was rather worthless)
If you’re looking for an overall philosophy that I would’ve approached after 2006, it would’ve been pumping a lot more money into the draft then FA. I didn’t think we were close at the time and I think organizations when they aren’t close shouldn’t be playing around too much in FA unless they see elite game-changing players at long-term positions of need (I dont believe Soriano was that)
I believe the approach to FA should be viewed as a gear-shift, you down-shift when your team isn’t a contender and shift into higher gears when your team is a contender. But when you shift into gear you overpay on dollars and underpay on years, then in years when you’re not a contender you pump extra money into draft and international signings
that’s my philosophy
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Sure, but without binging on FA
The Cubs would not have been anywhere close to contenders from 2006-2011. That is half a decade and for my money I would rather them at least try to win. If this is a zero sum game and we have to choose between free agency and the draft, then fine in years you aren’t a contender you put more money into the draft. But (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong) during 2006 to 2009 the Cubs were in fact pouring a suitable amount of money into the farm system. I see the problem years as being the first half of the decade rather than the second half of the decade. If we had had a couple of excellent position players or starting pitchers coming up through the farm in 2005, 2006, or 2007, then the team would have been in better shape. But, without those prospects, I would still rather the team try to contend rather than just take the decade off until they feel the have sufficient homegrown talent to contend.
pouring money in?
i’m not sure about that. I just looked quickly and couldn’t find the data, but I don’t remember the Cubs as being big spenders in the draft in recent years
we’ve become more proficient at drafting but we’re not doing it by out-spending teams and taking advantage of guys that have signability issues
perhaps one of the prospect guys can help supply the data on this one, but that’s my understanding off the top of my head
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
I am also not a prospect/draft guru
But, I think there are a couple of instances where the Cubs have tried to take advantage of draft value by paying more for prospects. By the same token, can you demonstrate how the Cubs should have spent more money on the draft over the past few years, money that was saved in free agency?As a FAN, if given the choice between a $140 million 85 win team and a $80 million 70 win team, I will take the 85 win team anyday of the week, unless you can demonstrate that the 70 win team will guarantee me a better chance at success in the future. Your proposed moves in my opinion would not necessarily have guaranteed us a better shot at winning in any past or future year and would have made us worse in 2007, 2008 and 2009.
as i've said
if you’re looking for me to comprise a full-scale look at how i would’ve build a contender i can go through and cherry pick who i would’ve signed that made sense and who i would’ve left to go by the wayside and with the benefit of hindsight look like genius
but i’m not going to do that because there’s no point
I’m sorry i can’t provide you with the answer that you’re looking for. If i did come up with something you’d likely ridicule it for having the benefit of hindsight.
The bottom line is i believe the team should always be spending money to legitimately contend. Spending $140 million to be an 85 win team for 4-6 years isn’t what i envision as a quality organization
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Complicating factors
The Cubs payroll hasn’t been $140 million for 4-6 years. Part of the problem is all of the deferred money which is in large part due to the Tribune Company attempting to squeeze value out of the Cubs before the sale. My point is that for years Cubs fans have complained about the team being unwilling to spend to attempt to put a contender on the field. For once they did, and now we are saying we wish they had not have spent the money and instead had preserved roster flexibility for some nebulous time in the future when we finally have enough talent to go for it. Which, by the way would not have been anytime between 2006 and 2011. For the future, I agree that we should make moves that complement our farm system and maintain flexibility. However, I am not going to get bent out of shape that the team attempted to win a World Series through free agency signings during a period where the farm system was among the worst in baseball.
agree to disagree
i dont think the constructing the roster the way they did was trying to win a world series. I think it was trying to compete in a terrible division and drive ticket sales up and drive the value of the franchise up
i also think its ridiculous to suggest they needed to spend that much money to be that good. And I think its silly to suggest that no time from 2006 to 2011 could they have contended had they taken a different route
a few small simple differences could’ve yielded vastly different results.
what if the Cubs signed Jayson Werth as a FA in 2007 instead of Soriano? and then extended him for 2 seasons like the Phillies did?
All of the sudden they’d have a 4.4 WAR player for the last 3 years at a total cost of 4.5 Million (with an additional 7 million this year) as opposed to a 3.8 WAR per year player for $38 million (with an additional 88 million over the next 5 years)
Had the Cubs taken some low risk gambles while investing money into the farm system maybe they find some legitimate keepers in their prime like the Phillies did with Werth, for a few years and maybe they develop some players from within like Pie to go alongside them
all of the sudden maybe they’re a 85 win team with a budget of $95 million instead of $140 and no room to make moves
At that point maybe Holliday becomes an option to try to push themselves over the top (while shifting Werth to RF)
there are scenarios out there that they could’ve gotten similar results without spending as much
it may have worked, it may not have worked, but right now there’s only 1 season in the last 4 that i really felt like we were contenders. And it took a whole lot of things go our way to happen
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Werth?
That’s cherrypicking.
My point all along has been that they had NO PROSPECTS w/ elite talent coming up the pipeline between 2006 and 2010. Even this year, Pie is still a 3rd/4th OF. Without this elite homegrown talent, the only way for the team to contend was with big-name free agency signings. Trying to fill the gigantic holes on this team with players complete gambles such as Werth would likely have resulted in us being the Cincinnati Reds or Baltimore Orioles over the last 5 years. No thanks. I will take my two playoff appearances.
as i suspected
badger me to show you a plan, i show you a plan, and you call it cherry picking
just have to agree to disagree. You assume not spending would have resulted in far less than 83-85 win seasons which is what we’ll end up with in 3 of the 4 seasons
i dont think that’s accurate
i think they could have spent more wisely (not screwing over the franchise for 2010 and 2011 and possibly 2012 and gotten similar results
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions
The moves at the time they were made...
Were not seen as “screwing over the team” in 2010 and 2011. If you could have predicted that Fukudome would be a complete bust, and that Lee/Ramirez would completely fall off the table you would not have made those moves. Them being bad moves had nothing to do with hurting flexibility and everything to do with the players signed to those deals not living up to expectations.
Obviously signing veterans to one-year deals where they miraculously exceed expectations is the best strategy. That is much easier said than done.
Isn't Crawford the biggest FA in the market in 2010 off-season?
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
yes and he's one of the few
elite guys that hit FA with parts of their prime still left. He’ll be 28, giving him 4-5 years of his prime that you rarely get when you make a FA signing
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Fukudome should be traded...
this season, especially if he continues to hit. Sell high and get out from under his contract a season early if possible.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Don't look now...
… he’s already started to come off his early season successes.
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on May 10, 2010 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Seattle seems like a natural trading partner, don't they?
A large Japanese market, a team with an open OF spot that places a premium on OF defense — maybe they could be convinced to send Cliff Lee our way if we’re in contention, they aren’t, and it becomes completely apparent that he’s walking anyway.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
that doesn't mean
he won’t waive it and accept a trade, maybe he’d like to play every day in a lower pressure situation.
NTC does not equal not trade-able.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
You are right, a NTC =/= not trade-able
However, his agent worked a NTC into his contract for a reason.
It is possible that he could waive it. I just find it interesting when people say the Cubs should trade a player with a NTC, without acknowledging the fact that he has a NTC (and the obvious challenges that brings to the equation).
I understand,
but I feel NTCs are not too big an obstacle, if the team someone is being traded to is a desirable destination, it will get waived. Peavy waved his to get traded to the Sox, McGriff waived his 9 years ago to come here.
I don’t think Fukudome would waive it for just any team, but given a situation desirable for him and a place he would be allowed to play every day, I could imagine him waiving it.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
It only took three weeks to get McGriff to waive that NTC.
In hindsight, I wish he had stayed in Tampa.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Me too,
I remember being very excited when we got him, but then quickly realized that this was no longer the 1993 version of the crime-dog, but was now the crime-bum.
My friends and I skipped class one day in ‘01 or ’02, I can’t remember,and went to a game, we painted McGriff across our chests, he went 0-4 and I had the outline of an “I” sunburned into my chest. Not worth it whatsoever.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Great work
Hendry has done well in some areas, Getting Lee, Ramirez, Dempster, Edmonds, DeRosa and Lilly. But his misses has really cost this team dearly.
The Bradley deal was the final candle on the cake. He we will be gone and so will Lou, I hope Lou will be gone sooner than later.
Excellent post..
My biggest beef with Hendry is that he doesn’t seem to have his own view of how a roster should look. He has tended to react to whatever the manager is asking for, such as trading for Pierre for Dusty and signing Bradley for Piniella. In my opinion, a top notch GM should have a strong view of what the best to construct a roster is and what it should look like.
Why does the GM have to be that guy?
I can see an excellent division of labor where the GM focuses on acquiring the best talent he can for the least expenditure, where the FM focuses on putting the best team on the field regardless of contracts, and where the two work together to communicate their respective needs to one another.
I think too many people view this like a video game where you make all the decisions and human personality has nothing to do with it.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
by DGU on May 9, 2010 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm describing a theoretical possibility.
4/9/10: Carlos Silva strikes out Joey Votto on three pitches. Is that what you mean by "small sample size"?
by DGU on May 9, 2010 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe he doesn't...
…because he lacks the proper knowledge in putting the right pieces together, and has than relied more on the managers.
There is a reason GM’s generally manage and Managers manage, and at the end of the day, if your GM is not astitute at roster assembly, you will pay the piper.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
yep..
When Dusty was here Hendry got a pass on players like Enrique Wilson and Freddie Bynum. Now Bradley was Lou’s fault..the buck has to stop somewhere..
Favre-enfreude
The thrill of seeing an epic Brett Favre fail. Derived from schadenfreude - satisfaction or pleasure felt at someone else's misfortune.
There was no "pass" on Wilson & Bynum...
… because those were guys Baker asked Hendry to get.
Hendry gives his celebrity managers too much pull on players they want.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I suppose Hendry couldn't say no..?
Favre-enfreude
The thrill of seeing an epic Brett Favre fail. Derived from schadenfreude - satisfaction or pleasure felt at someone else's misfortune.
I've always been of the assumption that middle positions are significantly more important than corner ones.
Yet our recent teams have traditionally had great corners and crappy middle ones. When was our last good SS/2B? Ryne? Dunston? Mid-90s? There’s always, always, always a surplus of corner positions, they require less skill, typically less-athletic players, and can be used to hide defensive woes. Start with the middle field positions, work your way out. C, 2B, SS, CF.
Dan
PS – Recommended
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
This is terrific! I would
expect this from a Dartmouth man.
However, you did not include one minor fact that the Cardinals absolutely lucked-out on that changed the balance of the Central Division for ten+ years: Albert Pujols.
To have the best player in baseball on your team, and support him with just enough role players (including your “scrap-heapers” – Ryan Ludwick) along with the best Manager, and it is a helluvah foundation for consistent contention. It is like MJ’s tenure with the Bulls.
The Cubs have only had a player like Pujols a couple times in the modern baseball era.
Overall, the teams you mention as the contenders also have sharp-as-a-tack GM’s. As you are a fellow Ivy man to at least one of these – how would you like Brian Epstien at Clark and Addison? If Ricketts and Kenney REALLY want to emulate the Red Sox – how about offering Epstein a chunk of change to properly run the Cubs?
Epstein's a Yale grad who grew up a Red Sox Fan
he’s not leaving the Red Sox
as for the Cardinals and Pujols, obviously its a huge advantage to build around that talent, no question about it, but they drafted and developed him so I don’t chalk that up to luck. Even so, you have to surround him with good role players to compete for world series with the Yanks and Sox and the Cardinals have done a tremendous job of that with keen FA signings (Carpenter, Ludwick) and trades (Wainwright) along with developing a ton of supporting players from within (Molina, Schumaker, Ryan, Rasmus – who is a STAR, etc). Cards a great organization.
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 9, 2010 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions
They did draft and develop him
but he was taken in the 13th round. I still give credit to St. Louis, but by the 13th round picks seem to be lower percentage of “sure things” (which I recognize very few are sure things). I guess my point is that there was a bit of luck Pujols fell to them that late. They took 15 players over Pujols that draft. At the same time though, 29 other teams also allowed him to go that late.
by portlandcubfan on May 10, 2010 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions
bottom line
Pujols alone doesn’t allow them to compete with the Yankees and Red Sox.
Sure Pujols makes things easier, but they’ve done a great job supplementing the talent around him with great cheap FA pickups (Carpenter, Ludwick), developing from within (Rasmus, Molina, Schumaker, Freese, Ryan), and smart trades (Wainwright)
Suggesting they’ve been blindly lucky because of Pujols is ignoring a whole series of other smart moves
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 8:03 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree
I was stating more on Pujols being a good, lucky pick. They have done a great job building around him for cheap with the scrapheap players and key free agents and trades.
by portlandcubfan on May 10, 2010 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Very well done...
…and would agree the lack of the “key” position players has forced the Cubs to go out and acquire/over pay for these key up the middle postions over the last 5 years or so. The other piece of this is the decision making behind who they have chosen, and how that player fits into all the parts you need (as a whole) to win.
IMO, Hendry’s biggest achilles heel has always been placing the proper value on each players capabilities and how that individual player fits into the entire team. His value system has been flawed, and that has cost the Cubs in many different ways.
I will say one more time, Jim Hendry is not someone who belongs making final roster decisions for a major league baseball team.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Thanks
Thanks DCF for a well thought out reasonable analysis.
Pieces like this give support to the argument that Hendry should be gone by the day after the World Series is completed.
This is so much better than an insult laden rant, yet arrives at the same conclusion. It is much harder to take the time to do what you’ve done.
Favre-enfreude
The thrill of seeing an epic Brett Favre fail. Derived from schadenfreude - satisfaction or pleasure felt at someone else's misfortune.
Great post,
what would be your plan for the Cubs’ starting rotation for the next 3-5 years? The Yankees trend recently has been to develop one or two guys and then surround him with high priced FA. Same could be said for the Red Sox.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Dempster, Zambrano, Wells, (FREE AGENT), Cashner/Jackson
Demp, Z and Wells are pretty much penciled into the rotation through 2012 in any case. I’d certainly be looking for a free agent starter after this year or next, too.
There’s some money coming off the books in Lilly. Probably not enough to sign Lee or Cain – you can certainly look at Brandon Webb if he returns healthy this year. Maybe Aaron Harang, if he’s getting his “lousy pitching” problems behind him.
But I’d definitely keep a spot open for one of our minor leaguers – perhaps Cashner could be added to the MLB squad as a long reliever and transitioned into a starting role the way the Twins handled Santana?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Never mind, Cain already signed an extension.
So basically, you’re looking at Webb coming off a shoulder surgery, and a bunch of other question mark-middle of the road type FAs.
May as well keep Gorzo in the #4 spot in that case.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Don't forget gorzelanny
I say we go into next year with Z, dempster, wells,and gorzo and have cashner, Jackson and Sean Marshall compete for that last spot.
Brad Miller is god.
SP
is really difficult to project year-to-year let alone a five year plan, but i’ll try to lay out how i’d think about it.
Here’s how the Cubs rotation lays out in terms of commitments the next 3 years:
2011 (in no particular order)
SP1 – Carlos Zambrano (2 yrs, 38 million)
SP2 – Ryan Dempster (2 yrs, 28.5 Million)
SP3 – Tom Gorzelanny (Arb-2)
SP4 – Randy Wells (pre-Arb)
SP5 – Carlos Silva (1 yr, 14.75 – including 2 mill buyout)
2012
SP1 – Carlos Zambrano (1 yr, 19 million)
SP2 – Ryan Dempster (1 yr, 14.5 million)
SP3 – Tom Gorzelanny (Arb3)
SP4 – Randy Wells (Arb1)
SP5 – Open
2013
SP1 – Randy Wells (Arb2)
SP2 – Open
SP3 – Open
SP4 – Open
SP5 – Open
2014 is the same as 2013 and 2015 we have all 5 spots open
So basically over the next two years we have 2 rotation spots tied up. The remaining 3 are taken by cost-controlled players that can easily be shifted or not offered arb, etc if something goes drastically wrong. With those 3 spots, we have two viable young SP candidates who are cost-controlled and look to be solid enough pitchers that we’ll want them in our rotation going forward. Then for the last spot in 2011 we have Carlos Silva pitching in the last year of his deal.
So theoretically we have 1 rotation spot open for each of the next 2 years. In addition we have a team, that looks like it would need a lot of help (on paper) to be a legitimate world series contender (especially while the Cardinals core is still locked up Wainwright, Pujols, Holliday, Rasmus, Molina), I think its safe to say the next two years can be focused on development while our young players get into their prime. Some may quibble with 2012 since the 2011 offseason has some big time players and we will have room to spend but that’s fine let’s focus on 2011 first.
In 2011 I’d have the last rotation spot up for grabs between Cashner, Jackson, and Silva. Ideally between Cashner and Jackson you’d get one of them to be your 5th starter and the other to be your long-man in relief/6th starting pitcher when someone goes down. That’s ideally, now obviously injuries happen, prospects don’t develop, etc. But given that the team is a non-contender and has 6 viable candidates for rotation spots, I see no need to even look to FA.
The good news for this is the FA class for next season is basically Cliff Lee and no one else, in terms of ELITE FA SP. (I’m of the belief Javy Vazquez is hurt right now, but you can include him potentially if his velocity rebounds).
So for 2011 that’s my plan, go with the 6 starters we have on the roster. Even if the young SP’s aren’t “ready” which I doubt will be the problem, they’ll have done everything at AAA to prove themselves at the minor league level. Even in the worst case scenarios I think one of them (likely Cashner) starts the season in the rotation while the other one can compete with Gorz/Wells for another rotation spot (if ready) and the loser goes to the long-man role. Silva operates as 12th man in the pen.
That brings us to 2012. By then you have a full year of development for Jackson and Cashner, and hopefully C. Carpenter working his way through AAA. Carpenter replaces Silva and we now have 7 potential starters again (Z, Demp, Wells, Gorz, Carp, Cashner, Jackson) for 5 slots. It’s likely with attrition the way that it is, that at least one of those young arms won’t be making an impact and we’ll be down to 6. Regardless we’re keeping it all internal because the FA class (according to Cot’s) by then will be Wandy Rodriguez, Mark Buehrle types.
So for 2011 and 2012 we keep it all in-house and let guys develop
Then in 2013 we’ll start to have an idea of what we have in Jackson, Carpenter and Cashner. Gorz will likely walk unless he takes the Ted Lilly career path and proves himself worth a FA contract and we’ll have hopefully 3 spots out of the 5 man rotation filled by internal options (Wells, Carpenter, Cashner, Jackson).
At this point we’ll know what we need and it happens to coincide not only when we have money (only Soriano on the books) but when our young players should be filling in holes around the diamond.
In 2013 we’ll potentially have:
C – Soto (30 years old, last year of Arb)
1B – 2011 FA??
2B – Lee? (22 years old)
SS – S. Castro (perhaps he’s at 2B with Lee at SS, 23 years old)
3B –
LF – Alfonso Soriano (2 yrs, 38 millon)
CF – Brett Jackson??? (24 years old)
RF -
While perhaps not all of these players pan out and become integral pieces around the diamond if some of them do we can start tactically picking out elite FA’s and pursuing them at 1B, 3B, RF. I looked quickly through the 2011 and 2012 FA lists and most of the elite hitters are in the 1B FA class of 2011. So my guess is we spend big there on someone like AGonz, Fielder, Pujols (if not re-signed) and then save money for 2012-2013 to fill holes around the diamond our prospects aren’t covering and perhaps a SP or two
I think the Yankees/Red Sox motto of having veteran pitchers on SHORT contracts is the best way to go about building a staff. It allows you the time to develop the young SPs while competing and when the Cubs are contenders again I’d expect that type of approach to be the best one
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions
not writing off vitters
just slipped my mind at the time
but in all reality not EVERY prospect is going to pan out as we expect, so there is going to need to be supplementing through FA, trades, rule 5, etc
I just want the Cubs to do it on smarter terms. Not locking up flexibility and keeping contract lengths short, by paying a higher average salary, not giving out no-trade clauses, valuing things like options, etc
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I basically agree with your conclusion almost 100%
I just disagree with your premise that it’s roster flexibility that’s hamstrung the Cubs, rather than financial flexibility. Take Soriano out of the equation, and we’re more or less fine, payroll-wise. But take out Byrd, or Fukudome, or Ramirez, and we’re still in bad shape.
Brad Miller is god.
never said one over the other
i indicated in the initial two paragraphs of the post there are MANY things the Cubs have failed in
i believe this is one that people haven’t discussed
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions
what about Colvin
would be nice if the OF was Sori, B Jackson, and Colvin.
Actually would be nice if the OF was ______, B Jackson and Colvin
I've said it before, and I'll say it again
Tyler Colvin is not very good. A .330 OBP and 15-20 HRs is not enough production from a corner OF, and that’s what Colvin will more than likely end up becoming.
Brad Miller is god.
by Poloplaya14 on May 10, 2010 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Colvin..
The frustrating thing is we may never know..at least not with the Cubs. I think you need to start a guy for a minimum of 20-25 games everyday to even see what you have. The Cubs won’t be able to do that with the Soriano/Byrd/Fukie/Nady monster already in place.
Favre-enfreude
The thrill of seeing an epic Brett Favre fail. Derived from schadenfreude - satisfaction or pleasure felt at someone else's misfortune.
"I think you need to start a guy for a minimum of 20-25 games everyday to even see what you have."
Or you could just look at his minor league stats and see that he doesn’t have nearly enough power or plate discipline to become even a league-average corner OF.
Brad Miller is god.
maybe
but that probably depends on your other production positions. If we had boppers at 1b, 3b and the other corner OF then a good fielding .330 with 15-20 hrs wouldn’t be bad.
It wouldn't be good either
Fukudome’s a .370 OBP, 15-20 HR, good defense guy, and everybody hates him. I’m worried that the Cubs try to move Fukudome and start Colvin instead next winter.
Brad Miller is god.
What's the worry there?
Fukudome isn’t a part of this team’s future, regardless.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
We'd be a worse team next year
Call me when Colvin has an OBP above .350 over 200+ PAs at any level (yes this includes softball, if want to go the Eric Byrnes route). Then I’ll believe he’s a viable candidate to start as a corner OF.
Brad Miller is god.
i'm still skeptical on Colvin
the minor league numbers are too big of a sample for me to just wash away at this point
I will say… he looks stronger and his bat looks quick enough to succeed and his approach doesn’t look like the guy he was in the minors. So perhaps I’m wrong and he will be a long-term solution
but the minor league #‘s don’t suggest he’s the type of player that would be a corner OF on a contending team, more of a 4th OF
That said… he’s a great guy to bridge that gap until we are contenders and see what you get out of him while he’s cost controlled.
I’d rather have Colvin patrolling CF or RF in 2011 than Byrd or Fukudome, but that’s unlikely given their contract commitments
what i mean by that is i think the Cubs believe Byrd was such a good signing (value) they can’t get rid of him and Fukudome’s contract is so big (12 million is tough for another non-big market team to swallow) and has a NTC that it will be tough to move him.
If the Cubs REALLY recognized they weren’t a contender this year or next and valued flexibility Byrd would be the most obvious guy to trade. He’d have more value given his contract doesn’t price him out of smaller markets and his ability to play multiple positions makes him a nice added piece for a contender. I’d think we could get a B level prospect for him, which would be the smart thing to do.
But i don’t get the impression (as is the whole point of the post) that the Cubs think that way. If they decided they weren’t contenders I bet they’d try to trade a guy like Fukudome first because they view Byrd as a nice value. If I was rebuilding Fukudome’s contract expiring would have more value to me than Byrd’s modest deal the next two years, because it opens 2 OF spots in 2012 as opposed to just one (if you kept Byrd)
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 11, 2010 7:55 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Really nice job, again, DCF
I would only quibble with Silva’s cost.
Cot’s says the Cubs are getting $5.5M in 2011 from the M’s. Did you include that in the total?
didn't include that
you’re correct
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 10, 2010 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks, good stuff,
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Whos really getting screwed here
Answer: the season ticket holders
there are about 10 to 15 k season ticket holders that are paying for this fiasco year in and year out.
My seats have went from 13k to 26 k in four years…..
i cant sell them at face.. so when the cubs say there are 40 k in the ball park thats BS..
there 40 k tickets paid for by people like me…. but im not making a salary where 26k is a drop in the bucket..it is 50% of my income… and if cant break even which I wont… why should i buy tickets and lose 8 to 9 k a year because that is what the true market value is for tickets… the cubs have squeezed the season ticket holder to the max… if you fans dont like the way they are playing you dont go to a game..I on the other hand have to pay for this team while the cubs rake in the money no matter what they put on the field…
i have become a ticket broker in essence for the cubs ..when i initially bought the tickets 27 years ago … just to go to the games ….now i cant afford it myself…. but noone talks about this… because most of you are not in our shoes….
If you're paying $26,000 for sporting events a year,
I’m not going to consider you screwed.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Hah. Seriously.
And if you can’t afford them – stop buying.
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on May 10, 2010 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Why in the hell are you spending 50 percent of your income
on baseball tickets?
And people wonder why this country is in so much financial trouble.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 13, 2010 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Manufacturing Runs
Just an opinion, but I believe that one underlying issue is this team is unable to manufacture runs. For example, watching the Reds fake bunt to pull Aram off of third so the runner on second can steal. This eventually led to a run, a crucial one at that. I have yet to see this team try anything like that, except for Theriot’s squeeze early on.
Are you saying Dusty is a better manager than Lou?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on May 10, 2010 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions
No
I think it comes back to the players. I am not sure if they are just being selfish and wanting to hit the big homerun but these guys need to manufacture runs. How many times do we leave someone stranded on second base after a lead-off double? It becomes very frustrating.
There really isn't a whole lot of difference..
I’ll wait now for the crap to rain down on me by the Dusty haters. As you rain the hate, just remember that he has his club ahead of the Cubs right now.
Favre-enfreude
The thrill of seeing an epic Brett Favre fail. Derived from schadenfreude - satisfaction or pleasure felt at someone else's misfortune.
i've said that since the hire
there really is little difference between the two managers. When they’ve had great teams, they’ve won. When they’ve had bad teams they’ve lost
i’d say in general people spend WAY TOO MUCH time assessing the manager. His overall impact on the club is minimal when compared to the people assembling the roster
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 11, 2010 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Your my hero!!!
Why people don’t get this simple concept, absolutely baffles me.
Everyone wants to bring in a new manager every few years to solve all the problems. And the problems are usually those caused by the GM putting the team together and overseeing the entire operation.
Give me an average manager with a real good GM, and I’ll beat the club with an average GM and a real good manager 9 times out of 10.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Question.
Do you think John Mozeliak is a better GM than Walt Jocketty?
Because the Cardinals have actually been better since Jocketty left.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
too short a time frame to assess
The Cardinals as constructed currently are largely constructed by Jocketty’s decisions. The core of their team is all guys that came in during Jocketty’s tenure (either through draft, trade, FA signing)
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 11, 2010 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Point taken.
Any other examples anyone can think of?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't know...
…who the best guy is, but bringing this guy in will be the most important decision Ricketts will ever make to protect his families investment – which means putting a quality product on the field, year in, year out.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
lots of good examples of teams turning it around a few years after
The Phillies replaced Ed Wade with Pat Gillick and a couple years later they were great
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 11, 2010 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
not so surprisingly
the astros hired ed wade and have continuously gotten worse
because ed wade LOVES overspending on insignificant assets like middle relievers and reserve players
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 11, 2010 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions
No idea...
…all I know is you need a guy who can do two things really well:
1. build a farm system (includes scouting etc) that has a sound philosophy and good instruction for the kids (see MN Twins).
2. Is very astitute at assembling a roster, and understanding how each players talents fit into the picture to field a nice balanced ball club
The Cubs have not had a sniff of either of these qualities since a guy named Dallas Green went bye bye. It is also the key to LONG TERM success most other teams have in common.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
it's always tough to say from other organizations who will fit that mold
because you don’t know how much input guys have and how reliant they are on the depth of their resources. A lot of people assumed Dayton Moore would be great in KC because he came from an organization that had a lot of success
it takes more than just one person.
I think we have a GREAT scouting director in Tim Wilken. I have no idea how great our scouts are or how great our developmental people are in the organization, but Wilken is a keeper.
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 11, 2010 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Correct.
After four years of Wilken’s leadership, we are finally seeing some results at the major league level and will continue to do so over the next 3-4 years. Whatever happens in the front office, they’ve got to keep Wilken.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agree...
…and just think of how things may have been if the Cubs would have recognized 10 years ago there was something amiss with how they scout and develop young players.
Wilken is a keeper, but please bring in a new headmaster.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Often, though...
… a new GM would bring in all his own people. That isn’t necessarily the best thing to do. Thus, your idea of having a VP of baseball operations, with Hendry, Wilken, Fleita all reporting to him is probably the best solution.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It's possible...
…that Ricketts tells a new GM (or VP) that they want to keep Wilken because they feel he has done good work. I doubt this would be a big issue (like what the Cubs did when they hired both Baker and Piniella and told both Rothschild was staying on).
Lastly, if Ricketts went the VP route and kept Hendry in somewhat of a GM role, it would be manadatory (IMO) that final roster decisions be stripped from Hendry.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Wilken is pretty widely respected
within the game as well. My guess is a new GM would not be opposed to keeping Wilken
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 12, 2010 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions
At this point I'd say the uniform for one.
"Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two."
by Sandberg's evil twin on May 10, 2010 6:12 PM CDT reply actions
DCF
Thanks for the post and taking the time to answer all of the different questions. Lets hope the brain trust of the Cubs is put half as much thought to our future.
Luck?
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on May 14, 2010 6:19 PM CDT reply actions
Oh, you're talking about sustained success.
I think the Cubs have been reasonably successful this decade. I think you’d have to mark them as one of the better teams in the NL in the 2000’s.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on May 14, 2010 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions
really?
averaged 80.7 Wins a season, 1 90+ win season, 3 sub 70 win seasons, as many finishes in the top half of the division as the bottom half of the division
i think you’re setting the bar pretty low
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by DartmouthCubsFan on May 14, 2010 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions

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