An Outside the Box Solution to the Bullpen Problem
Here are some issues the Cubs currently face:
1.) Their bullpen has been an toxic disaster. In the NL, the Cubs pen ranks 11th in ERA and FIP, and 13th in their total WPA/LI (a stat that measures the rate at which a player improves the chances of the team winning a game). What's more, the Cubs haven't been scoring many runs, and this has placed more of a dependence on the bullpen. Their failures in close games has been driving Lou crazy, as most of his questionable decisions this year seem to stem from a lack of faith in the the pen.
2.) The Cubs have too many starters! This isn't a huge problem, but having too many guys pitching well from the rotation could lead to some chemistry issues. Carlos Zambrano seems much happier now that he's moving back to the rotation, and Tom Gorzelanny is apparently disappointed he's heading to the pen.
3.) The team's chances of making the postseason are plummeting, and are now less than 10% according to the Baseball Prospects rest of season simulations. Their season isn't over, but it may be time to start changing the focus to 2011 and beyond while still trying to win this year. That's tough to do.
4.) While the Cubs have some talented young arms, they need to be stretched out if they're going to end up in the rotation come 2011. Although the statistical evidence in support of the Verducci effect - which claims increasing a young pitcher's workload by 30 or more IP per season significantly increases their chance of getting hurt the following season - is inconclusive, many GM's are wary of dramatically increasing the IP of their young pitchers. That goes double for the Cubs, given their history of devastating injuries to outstanding young pitchers. Assuming for the moment the Cubs will try to avoid increasing workloads by more then 30 IP per season, they'll need to stretch both Andrew Cashner and Jay Jackson out if want to have the option of having all those guys in the rotation for the 2011 season.
I have an outside the box solution to all these problems: a bullpen rotation. Follow me below the fold to see how it would work.
Step 0: Call up Andrew Cashner and move someone (Tom Gorzelanny?) to the pen. Move Carlos Zambrano to the rotation, and put someone (John Grabow?) on the DL. (This is step 0 because the Cubs have already done these things. So far, so good.)
Step 1: Set up a 3-man rotation in the bullpen of Tom Gorzelanny, Andrew Cashner, and Sean Marshall. Each guy would be the "default reliever" on a given day whenever the starting pitcher was gassed, assuming said pitcher couldn't get straight to Marmol for the 9th.
Step 2: Relax. First off, let the guy pitch more than one inning, even if he gasp gives up a run or if you have a propensity to LaRussa the bullpen (i.e. over-manage). Also, as you're doing this, keep in mind the bullpen rotation doesn't have to be set in stone. (Just like the starting rotation!) As long as a guy gets at least 2 days rest between appearances, he should be OK. Having two lefties and one righty in the pen rotation (and 4 righties/1 lefty in the starting rotation) will also make it so that on most days the team will be able to replace a right-handed SP with a left-handed reliever and vice versa.
Step 3: If these guys are pitching in a non-save situation, let them pitch through the end of the game or until they reach 3 IP (or, better yet, about 40-50 pitches). If they're pitching in a save situation, let them pitch until they reach the 9th or 3 IP.
Step 4: Continue to use Marmol as the closer. Utilize James Russell and Jeff Stevens as your LOOGY and ROOGY.
Step 5: You don't need a long-relief/mop-up man, because the bullpen rotation will essentially fill this role, the middle relief role, AND the setup role. This means you can DFA Bob Howry, and call up another hitter. That's right, I said another hitter. You should be able to have fewer bullpen arms because you'll get getting more innings out of the bullpen rotation than you do out of most bullpen guys. At the moment, Chad Tracy would make a good addition given Fontenot's promotion at 2B, Baker's lack of playing time, and Ramirez's injuries/struggles. (Al, I'm guessing you <3 step 5.)
Why do I like this? A lot of reasons. Gorzelanny will have a more important role in the pen than he would otherwise have. All 3 guys will be more stretched out in case of an injury to a Cubs starting pitcher, and all 3 will be accustomed to pitching in close/late situation in case Marmol is hurt. And Cashner will get the innings he needs to move into the pen while getting MLB experience. Cubs starters have averaged almost exactly 6 IP/game so far this year, and Marmol has appeared in 45% of the games to date. This leaves about 2.6 innings per game for the guys in the bullpen rotation. Assuming each guy pitches once every three games, that'll give Cashner about 94 more IP this season, in addition to the 57 he's already thrown in the minors this year, for a total of 151 IP. This is a little too much, as Cashner only threw 100 IP last season, but that sort of thing can be adjusted during the season, if need be. (For example, the team could send him back down to Iowa to have him pitch from the pen and call up Jay Jackson in his place. Alternatively, they could make it a 4-man bullpen rotation by throwing Jackson into the mix.) More than anything else, the Cubs will be leveraging their best pitchers and the depth in their long line of potential starters. They'll essentially have the 9 best pitchers in the organization throwing almost ALL their innings. This is a very good thing.
It's a little weird, but I think it just might work!
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It just might work.
Caveat: most bullpens work better when relievers have defined roles. You have defined some of them, but I wonder if the “rotation” would confuse some of the pitchers. I’d be very glad to see relievers used for more than one inning at a time, and yes, I would very much be in favor of one less bullpen arm and one more bench bat.
FWIW, you wouldn’t have to “DFA” Howry. You could simply release him. (Yells of “DFA” are way overused and not really in tune with what that term actually means.)
I especially like step 3 — how many times have we seen a reliever yanked in a game the Cubs were trailing, say, 7-4 with a shot at getting back in the game after 7 or 8 innings, only to see the replacement guy turn the game into an 11-4 rout.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
These guys will have set roles, even if they're a bit unorthodox.
The only way I can imagine the “undefined role effect” being real is if changing a pitcher’s role in an unpredictable fashion adversely affects the way he prepares to enter the game. In this scenario, the pitcher would have a somewhat “strange” role, but it would be entirely predictable. They’d know at the start of the day when it was their turn to relieve the starting pitcher, and would thus be able to prepare accordingly.
Marmol, Russell, and Stevens would have clearly-defined roles that are more traditional.
"You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity...No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball." - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 2, 2010 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I actually like this outside-the-box idea.
If a manager — maybe the new Cubs manager after Lou is gone (soon!) — would try it, it just might work.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes, because...
…Step # -1 (since 0 was already used) is a new manager.
Outside The Box + Lou Pinella = Ain’t Gonna Happen.
Proudly waving the Cubbie Blue from Northern Missouri! GO CUBS GO!
i like the idea a lot
especially because the innings of are young arms need to be stretched for next year and beyond
unfortunately i don’t think its realistic to expect the Cubs to implement, but i sure am in favor of it
the problem with implementation is you lose leverage of pinch hitters in late game situations
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 2, 2010 2:36 PM CDT reply actions
That's a good point with the pinch hitters.
Just change the rules and implement the DH! ;-)
Seriously, that is an issue. You could still try to get some leverage from pinch hitters using double switches, but that’s about it.
"You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity...No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball." - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 2, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah
but its a mild problem if the focus is on developing rather than contending
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 2, 2010 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly.
I’d also guess (and this is really a guess) that the team’s bullpen performance is more important than getting an extra PH a game.
"You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity...No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball." - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 2, 2010 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
It's not just "an extra PH"...
… it would be an extra body to give the manager more flexibility with double-switches, platooning, etc.
The Cubs would be a better team with 11 pitchers and Chad Tracy on the bench right now, for example.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Platooning as a strategy
is almost dead because of the 12 man pitching staffs.
Sometimes you can platoon at one position. But usually it’s done just to give guys days off.
not in the AL
the Rays build their team with a focus on platoon splits. They’ve done this with RF, heck their entire bullpen is specialists (lefty, righty, ground ball, etc)
of course you have more roster flexibility in the AL
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 2, 2010 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions
True. Although DCF was referring to...
the fact that the Cubs will have fewer opportunities to use those bench players as pinch hitters (for the pitcher) because there will be fewer pitching changes.
"You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity...No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball." - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 2, 2010 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions
It makes too much sense
That’s why the Cubs will never implement it.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
LaRussa is the only one who seems to buck traditional baseball
by pitching his whole bullpen one batter in every game. Weird yes, I can’t grasp that concept.
The traditional thing here is having a set of relievers that are used when the team is ahead and other relievers that are used when behind or in blowouts. Our problem is until recently Marshall moved into a trusted “hold a lead” type pitcher but everyone else kind of wandered in and out of games
The best decision sometimes is just to make a DECISION and stick with it for a while. You have a plan Shawn but it makes sense but does not follow traditional baseball and probably wound not get used. I just want to see something that looks like consistency and stick to it for a few weeks.
Last point, if a starter can go 7 innings, we should have someone that can get through the 8th and on to Marmol wouldn’t ya think? With our payroll shouldn’t we have one other guy to get us to the closer and actually use him? Let’s go with Marshall in that roll, if the starter can’t go 7 then do a little LaRussa and mix and match to get to the 8th.
Just get a plan.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
Yeah, I'm not saying this *will* be done... just an idea.
Given the “normal bullpen usage roles” I’d like to see Cashner moved into the setup role, at least if/until the Cubs are out of it. Then I’d like to see him moved to the rotation.
"You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity...No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball." - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 2, 2010 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I am for this
but only if Lou is fired and replaced by a rotating college of coaches.
by the nth on Jun 2, 2010 2:50 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I think BCB could make all the decisions necessary.
Real-time polls would solve a lot of these decisions.
Bill Veeck tried that once...
… when he was St. Louis Browns owner. He gave some fans a set of cards and they were supposed to hold them up to make various decisions during one game that a manager would have made (bunt, hit & run, relievers, etc).
The Browns lost.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Actually...
… I found this link which says the Browns WON that game. It was in 1951:
Veeck’s St. Louis Browns won the game 5-3, one of only 52 games the team won that year. Fifty-five years ago, the local paper in St. Louis, the Globe-Democrat, printed a ballot in which readers could choose the lineup order and position of the players for the game.
Every fan who submitted a lineup received a ticket and sat in a special area behind the dugout. Each “manager” was given a card with “No” and “Yes” on it. As Browns manager Zack Taylor sat in the stands in a rocking chair, fans votes were quickly tabulated on nearly every major decision ranging from how the infield should play to whether or not a new pitcher should be warmed up.
Wrote Veeck in his autobiography, “Veeck As In Wreck:” “Never has a game been called better.”
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Cubs and Outside the Box
are two phrases that don’t go together very well.
Having said that, modern bullpen usage patterns are insane. This is at least a step toward sanity.
+1
I get a little tired of a set 7th inning reliever and a set 8th inning reliever. The idea of a rotation (closer excluded) in the pen isn’t bad at all. If it’s your turn, it’s your turn no matter what inning it is. Of course, as Shawn wrote, you can adjust your rotation based on the performance of the individual pitchers.
I feel like a terribly old man to say I can remember when Herzog would use Sutter for 2+ inning saves. All of these managers who limit their relievers to one inning or less can get off my lawn. I can’t say, “Get off my lawn!”, and be cool like Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Good points.
I would love to see your perspective to fix this Cub offense. That’s been our problem since the 2008 playoffs.
Maybe next year is finally our year.
I'll try to get to that...
but there isn’t a great solution to that problem. Where do you upgrade the offense this year? There are lots of ways they could go in 2011, but there isn’t really the room for lots of changes in 2010. The best chance they have is probably just do do nothing and hope Ramirez and Lee rebound to their past production levels.
"You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity...No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball." - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 2, 2010 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Billy Williams at Almost 72?
I don’t how well he can get around on the fastball these days. I hear he’s lost some speed going down the line since the 1960’s. I’d almost rather have him up at the plate now than a lot of the Cubs current players.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
I like shawndgoldman's logic
Check out the 1984 Tigers, who won 104 games and WS. (AL Cy Young and MVP winner) Willie Hernandez pitched in 140 innings in 80 games, 9 wins and 32 saves. Aurelio Lopez threw 137 innings in 71 games, won 10 and saved 14. There was no setup man. One pitched one day, the other the next day. I don’t like the concept of 1 inning relievers. It is ineffective, and causes the need for 12 pitchers. Cubs could use that 14th hitter right now.
Well, this makes for interesting
coffee talk, but does anyone see any scenario under which 1) Lou Piniella implements something similar, or 2) a new manager would?
Nope.
Not unless they install me as the new manager, and that would be a truly horrendous idea.
"You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity...No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball." - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 2, 2010 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Imagine the fans reaction
when you kept a RHP in to face a hot LHB and the batter drilled one deep. There would be no sense keeping R/L splits. You’d eliminate using the hot hand on the mound.
I know Lou couldn’t handle it and I doubt a manager would accept that limitation on his ability to actually “manage”. On the other hand, I do believe that managers do overuse the specialty reliever for only one batter. I’d like to find a manager who does stretch out his effective relievers for more than one batter.
It has always seemed to me that the more relievers are used in a game, the more likely one of them will have a bad outing. I feel there is too much reliance on L/R splits to the detriment of leaving a guy who appears to have good stuff that day stay on the mound.
Believe it or not #, our RHP do better against LHB than RHB. sOPS+ 84 vs sOPS+ 97
Believe it or not 2, our LHP do better against RHB than LHB sOPS+ 86 vs sOPS+ 124
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
This is a legit concern.
I don’t have time to answer it at the moment, but I’ll try to later.
"You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity...No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball." - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 2, 2010 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions
It doesn't completely ignore R/L splits.
I understand them. But teams often have a closer and a setup man while ignoring platoon splits. Why? Because those two guys are so much better than the rest of the pen, you’re better off having them pitch without the platoon advantage than you are having the alternative pitch with the platoon advantage. In this case, you’re getting almost all your innings from the 5 starters and your top 4 bullpen arms. Almost no innings would go to the other guys deeper in the pen.
Besides, you’d still have the LOOGY and ROOGY in the pen for particularly tough situations or if you were up against a team with 3 straight RHB or LHB. You also would be replacing a RHP with a LHP (and vice versa) when you could, potentially making the opposing manager bring in platoon partners.
"You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity...No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball." - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 2, 2010 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, and another thing...
part of the reason guys come in for one batter is that managers stack their lineup L/R/L/R/L/R when possible. This means that if you bring in a righty to face a lefty, you lose the platoon advantage the next batter unless you change pitchers again.
"You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity...No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball." - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 2, 2010 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Er... righty to face a *righty.*
"You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity...No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball." - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 2, 2010 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions
How about...
We stick to the bullpen format that every other team in the league uses, and get pitchers that don’t suck. And if they do suck, don’t use them.
And properly use the ones that don’t suck based on matchups, stats and the game situation?
Overall, I like Lou as a manager...
However, I think bullpen management has always been a weakness of his.
"You teach me baseball and I'll teach you relativity...No, we must not. You will learn about relativity faster than I learn baseball." - Albert Einstein
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 2, 2010 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I called for this in a couple of threads when Z went to the bullpen
My trio was Z, Marshall, Cashner. Each one pitches 2-3 innings once per series.
But Gorz, Cashner, Marshall would work for me as well, with Jackson taking over for Gorz after the ASB.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??

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