On Passion And Fire In Baseball
After yesterday's Carlos Zambrano antics, Bob Brenly said on the Cubs telecast: "This has been a deadass team for three months," and implied that having such an outburst might be good for the Cubs.
With all due respect to Brenly, whose commentary I like and who both played and managed major league baseball, I don't think that sort of thing either: a) has any place on a baseball team, or b) accomplishes anything except embarrassment and a mess for the manager and general manager to clean up.
I think Brenly, and some here as well, are confusing yelling and screaming with fire and desire to win. Follow me past the jump and I'll explain why I don't think this kind of thing has any place in major league baseball.
Let me begin by examining the kind of teams you put together in the three other major North American professional sports, and the kind of individuals who play those sports.
In the NFL, each team has one well-defined leader -- the quarterback -- or at least, someone who's supposed to be that leader. Obviously, more skilled quarterbacks are going to help lead teams to victory. But it is, I believe, also true that a good quarterback/leader has to be a strong, rah-rah guy, who might yell and scream at players in practice sessions. We often hear stories of fights breaking out at NFL training camps; this isn't surprising given the physical contact you see between teammates in practice, especially in training camp where it's summer, temperatures are high, and emotions run high. Football is an emotional game, played at a fast pace.
So is basketball, which also has quite a bit of physical contact. Elbowing goes on all the time in the NBA; sometimes fouls are called, sometimes not, which often leads to agonized looks on the faces of players who think they've been wronged. Players defend their teammates as best they can against these kinds of infractions, within the rules; break the rules and you're penalized with fouls. Too many fouls and you're out of the game, which, presumably, you don't want -- thus, games are played physically, but not with teammates shouting at each other.
Which leads me to the NHL. Hockey is a violent sport. Players move at breakneck speed and crash into each other all the time; I've written before that I don't care for the fistfights that break out when a team's enforcer -- or someone else -- takes exception at certain hits. Some of these hits are, in fact, dirty (as was the one on the Blackhawks' Brian Campbell by Alexander Ovechkin in Washington last March), and that leads to fights, penalties and suspensions. Players defend their teammates with vigor and emotion -- you can see it on the ice every day, and it's expected.
Baseball is not played that way. First, it is played on a nearly everyday basis. Players must go out and perform daily or nightly, many times banged up (I've read player quotes that say, essentially, "the only day you feel 100% is the first day of spring training"), and keep things on an even keel. Players spend more time with their teammates during the season than with their families -- different than any other sport. It must be a collaborative process, not an emotional process, that keeps teams together. I have never once seen a team succeed by screaming and yelling at each other. The 2008 Cubs, who won 97 games -- no tantrums; not even from Carlos Zambrano. One of the complaints about that team was that it "lacked fire", presumably one of the reasons they lost the playoff series (I don't agree; I believe one of the primary reasons was that it was ill-prepared by its manager). That was one of the stated reasons for the acquisition of Milton Bradley, to add "fire".
That isn't the "fire" you want to add; we all know how that situation worked out and I won't belabor it. I will, however, point out that the most successful of teams over the last 15 years -- the Yankees, who have 14 playoff appearances and five World Championships since 1995 -- don't yell and scream at each other in public, don't have meltdowns like Carlos Zambrano's. If anything, you can accuse them of being too staid and businesslike. It is true that the "Bronx Zoo" Yankee teams of the 1970's, who also won a pair of World Series, had their share of characters and one memorable dugout confrontation between Reggie Jackson and Billy Martin -- but that's one incident, and team management immediately took control of the situation and it never happened again.
Did you see this year's Red Sox, who got off to a slow start at 19-20 and 8.5 games out of first place as late as May 23, yelling and screaming at each other and throwing tantrums in the dugout? They could have been called a "dead-ass team", too, but no, you did not see that. They calmly and methodically, under a manager who knows what he's doing, moved back into contention, to the point where they were within a game of first place earlier this week and are well-positioned to win the wild card, if they can't overtake the Yankees.
That's the kind of leadership the Cubs need, and do not have, with Lou Piniella. Yesterday, TV networks re-ran the footage of the Zambrano/Michael Barrett fight from June 1, 2007. What struck me more than anything about that footage was how dark Lou's hair was only three years ago. This team has aged him and it shows in his slumped shoulders and resigned "Look, what do you want me to do" statements. It was time for him to go a month ago; now, it may be too late to do anything about this year.
I haven't said much about Jim Hendry's role in all this. I put him in the middle of the pack of major league GM's; he's made good moves and bad, and in his tenure the Cubs have had more postseason play than any decade since the 1930's. There is no doubt that the huge backloaded deals he's handed out like candy have hamstrung him, and the Zambrano deal may be unmovable. Phil Rogers in the Tribune today suggested shipping him to the Yankees for Kei Igawa; Igawa is pitching poorly in Triple-A and the idea is to rid yourself of the $45 million (approximately) left on Z's deal, not take on more immovable money. Rogers also says:
Coincidentally, it was 363 days ago, after watching Zambrano cold-bloodedly drill the White Sox's Dewayne Wise out of spite, at the end of another tiresome meltdown, that I wrote the Cubs should put him on waivers and see if anybody would take him off their hands for nothing — sort of the way the Blackhawks just shed three Stanley Cup winners and the Bulls have agreed to trade Kirk Hinrich. More than 70 percent of voters responding to a Tribune poll agreed they would do it.
Hendry could put Zambrano on waivers now — he probably will, judging from the disgust he and Piniella showed — but would anyone want the contract? And don't forget that the Cubs also gave Zambrano a no-trade clause. He could block any move.
This is all true, but it has to be done.
In any case, this kind of gets away from the main point, so let me wrench this back on topic. Sure, players should care about winning. Though the Cubs have looked, many times this year, like a team that can't hit, can't pitch and can't field, I have no doubt that they care. Throwing a tantrum in the dugout and screaming and yelling at one of the most respected players in the game doesn't indicate "fire", it indicates that you have psychological problems that need to be addressed, and better addressed, perhaps, in another zip code.
Let them be addressed elsewhere. And get a field leader who leads, not sighs.
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The only kind of fire I want to see
is the kind where teammates try to pick each other up, not point fingers or bring them down..
by LT on Jun 26, 2010 9:11 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, have fire on the field, that's where it belongs...
Not in the dugout.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I will say this about Piniella's post-game
He seemed more engaged than he has in a long time. I wish he was like that more often.
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 26, 2010 9:17 AM CDT reply actions 5 recs
Yes
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Green'ed.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed. He was pretty pissed.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
"Fire"
This is something I see in football all of the time. The coach can scream and yell, the players can run through brick walls, and smash their heads on their helmets, but the game isn’t won by who is the most fired up. Emotion can only take you so far.
Correct...
…short term emotional boosts (for whatever reason) eventually fizzle out and just don’t last. You have to have desire deep within most of your players that takes them through the day to day at the highest level possible.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Dead ass team? Yes on the outside but I think the players inside are trying,
they just aren’t going anywhere. As far as firing up this team, what Z did was in no way something that would fire up a team so Brenly was “dead ass” wrong. Fire up the team on the field not in the dugout in the manner it was done.
The reaction from Lou and Jim may very well fire this team up because players do expect action when a “family member” of theirs acts like this and they received what all the players probably wanted. Who knows what other things have been said by Z, his body language, his facial expressions, etc. that have turned players off.
I am expecting a win today and I’m expecting better things from our Cubs. Elimination of players sometimes is the best thing for a team because the mind set becomes “we can win without you” and everyone pulls together a little tighter.
I’m glad this is over on the field but we’ll probably hear a lot more of the aftermath in the next 2 weeks.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
by Long Rose
Hey, I salute Brenly for speaking the truth. This 2010 Cubs team is overpaid and underproducing. They are veteran ball players who don’t hustle and make stupidly fundamental errors. It’s deadass from the front office down. There’s no team speed and their minor league system contains few bats and few exciting prospects. Let’s call a spade a spade and confront the fact that this team is DOA—-they were from the first series of the season. And we know they’ll finish 20 games south of .500. Everybody cautions about “pushing the emergency button.” Heck, it’s overdue. This franchise has won nothing for 100 years. Even expansion teams—Rays, Marlins, Mets, etc—starting from scratch have done much better than the Cubs. In fact, I’ll wager that plowing the franchise under and starting totally from ground zero would bring a winner to the North Side faster than with the infrastructure they now have.
I don't mind leaders of teams getting on others during the game as long as its warranted.
Z yelled at a guy yesterday who is a gold glove winning first basemen who has played hurt in the past and would do anything in his power to stop a ball down the first baseline. People like this do not deserve to be yelled at.
A situation in which I feel it would be deserved would have been a couple of weeks ago when Hanley Ramirez made some sort of error (I already forget what it was), kicked the ball and jogged after it. I would have no problem with a leader on a team to get on him in the dugout for this.
United we stand and united we'll fall......down on our knees the day we win it all!
He yelled at him because he felt embarrassed and knew he had screwed up himselft.
He was shifting blame as coddled players do, so used to everything being someone else’s fault they don’t know how to deal with it when they screw up themselves.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
When I was playing sports, I was always taught
that having passion and fire was of course good, but that getting too angry was simply detrimental to your play. I was actually a lot like Z, I had a lot of trouble controlling my temper whether it was on the football field or the baseball diamond, or yes, the tennis court.
Sometimes my anger worked for me on the football field, but more often than not, my anger caused me to screw up. The other caveat is that I never played anything other than rec league softball once I passed the age of 23. Zambrano is a grown ass man, and his temper can be compared to mine when I was 18-19 years old. That’s a problem
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 9:22 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
I also calmed the hell down once I was playing nothing more than rec league softball
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions
This is to me because you weren't a star athlete coddled all your life.
I think Z has been told in every major situation, don’t worry about it, we’ll take care of it, you’re right, just play baseball, you’re right. Then you get Terrell Owens, Miltion Bradley, Ron Artest, players that do not know how to deal with society because they have been coddled all their lives and expect it on their teams. The Cubs have furthered this by coddling him as well…and finally it came to such a point now they are forced to deal with it.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Here is what i said in the other thread:
I made this argument during the Bradley debacle and nobody wanted to hear it, but in light of this second "indefinite suspension" in less than a year, i think we should revisit the idea.
Some teams can harness the Artests and TOs, the ’Sheed’s and AI’s and Zs of the world. Some organizations have what it takes to absorb a Randy Moss or a Corey Dillion and not have everything go off the tracks. Dennis Rodman came to the Bulls and knew his shenanigans weren’t an option. Nothing gives me the impression there is a force in place to keep Cubs players in check in the same manner.
We keep blaming the players for their ridiculous ways while wearing Cubbie blue, but really… there is a pattern on the north side of Chicago. This isn’t the first time Z’s flown off the handle to the teams detriment. And Bradley wasn’t the first known grouse to to act out and then have the team react like they hadn’t seen it coming.
I have an idea – if you are going to commit millions of dollars to bringing volatile individuals in to one of the most pressurized environments in all of pro sports, why don’t you figure out how to handle their mental quirks? Boston and LA are tough places to play – just as tough as Chicago, arguably – yet the Patriots and Lakers manage to harness headcases because they have strong leaders – guys like Brady, Belichick, Coach Jackson – and strong organizational heirarchy… the cubs consistently lack that leadership and methodology, and even when they hired the "firey" Lou, it was in the waning years of his career – how many times have we REALLY seen that "grab a team by the balls and lay down the law" fire we expected from him?
Not to make excuses for the players, but it ISN’T these guys’s jobs to be good role models for our kids, or model members of our community. They aren’t politicians or teachers, and frankly i’d prefer they focus on their on-field duties in lieu of being on a perpetual "i’m a good guy, seriously!" pr campaign. They play a game for a living, and have spent their life coddled and enabled and told their every whim is OK. Acting surprised at their childish behavior, considering the path most of them have taken through life, is silly. And lamenting it is hypocritical – the fact is, you are supporting the system, from AAU teams to Sori’s bright blue Hummer, every time you buy a $60 bleacher ticket or a $145 dollar Blackhawks jersey.
How many times are we going to hear that Player X just "needs to play in a smaller market" or "needs to go somewhere with less pressure" before we admit the problem is with the team and not the players? Hire a psychiatrist, overpay for a known clubhouse guy, find the Phil Jackson of baseball coaches, do SOMETHING other than pretending like suiting up for this team is just like suiting up for any other and then acting surprised when guys bow to the pressure.
Albert Einstein once said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". Think about this quote for a second and ask yourself, is it Z that is crazy, or is your favorite team insane for expecting anything different from him?
Sorry for the double post, i put it over there before i saw Sandberg’s Evil Twin’s comment. ’Twas more relevant here, methinks.
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Jun 26, 2010 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
And I'll say the same thing here I said there.
You raise some valid points. However, there are some cities, some teams, some situations, some fanbases, that aren’t appropriate for certain individuals. We learned that lesson last year. It is up to team management to not only put together a talented team, but in this “me-first” pro athlete mentality era, also a team that works for the place it is put together.
You need look no further than the 2009-10 Blackhawks for a shining example of that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I dunno, Al - this is a direct quote from your OP:
Players defend their teammates with vigor and emotion — you can see it on the ice every day, and it’s expected.
Baseball is not played that way.
The Blackhawks were a shining example of that, sure – but like you just said, that is a product of the sport they play. And probably a product of their success as well. Now, we don’t need to have the “chicken or egg” conversation about playing well and a happy clubhouse, but i think we can agree that the comradery guys feel on a hockey team isn’t going to be replicated in baseball.
As an institution, the MLB (and its contributing system of AAU, high school, college, foreign and minor league teams), with it’s uncapped payrolls, its far more diverse base of players, its larger popularity across the globe (you have to remember many of these guys ARE gods in their home countries / communities), and many other things, is more likely to churn out guys like Bradley and Z than hockey is. And that says nothing of the individual nature of the game vs truer TEAM sports like football, basketball and hockey.
The fact is, the Cubs need to recognize they are a unique environment and deal with it. Some of the most talented players, the guys most likely to get you to that elusive world series, are going to be batshit crazy, be it due to cultural differences, the individual nature of the sport, or being brought up to think they are god’s gift to the world. It is what it is. We can keep shipping off talented players because they can’t handle playing for the team, or the team can try to become a place where talented yet weird / quirky / edgy guys go and excel.
“Look, what do you want me to do” doesn’t get you that. Calling your player a “piece of shit” doesn’t get you that. Jerking them back and forth from the rotation and the bullpen doesn’t get you that.
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Jun 26, 2010 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Your points again are well stated.
But why do players have to be quirky/edgy to excel? Why can’t they just be the best players?
As I mentioned in the post, you don’t see the Red Sox yelling and screaming at each other when they get off to a bad start. They just focused and started winning. Yes, talent has a lot to do with it. So does a manager who knows what he’s doing.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'm not saying...
… the players HAVE to be the odd balls or head cases, i’m just saying there are enough of them out there (and many of them are good at their jobs otherwise), and Chicago is a rough enough environment, that this is GOING TO KEEP HAPPENING until something is done by the organization to prevent it. The guess and check method of seeing if guys WHO ARE KNOWN ENTITIES can stand up to the pressure isn’t getting us anywhere.
No, i don’t see the Red Sox yelling and screaming at each other. I also don’t see them taking mentally volatile starting pitchers and jerking them around, and when there ARE clubhouse issues (and i doubt their clubhouse is perfect at all times) i don’t hear their manager calling a player a “piece of shit” within earshot of somebody who’ll put it in the press. You assumption that it’s the PLAYERS of the Red Sox that foster such a great environment is suspect – i’d venture to say their organizational leadership does a lot better job of handling their guys, and that results in the nice pretty smiling clubhouse we are so jealous of.
And again, not to get all “chicken and egg” about winning and clubhouse chemistry on you, but a lot of those guys have rings on their fingers – it’s a lot easier to slog through a losing streak if you’ve got that going for you.
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Jun 26, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
You're probably right about the organization.
Yet, there were no issues like this when the team was winning 97 games in 2008.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
They can be just the best players without the drama.
When I was a kid my heroes were Santo, Kaline, Banks, Williams, Mantle, Yaz. Quirky? Perhaps. Edgy? That’s not how I remember them, maybe they were. And they could be boring even, except when the game was on the line.
I also liked the edgy/quirky ones, Denny McLain, Mark Fidrych. And for whatever reason, the edgy ones were gone in a short period of time.
I sure hope that there aren’t kids out there, in the absence of a guiding mom or dad, looking at Z saying “that’s what I want to be.” But you know there are, and that’s sad.
Dempster is quirky, but he doesn’t have to go down in a ball of flames to get it done. Former Mariner and current broadcaster Mike Blowers has an expression he uses all the time, used it the other day in reference to Cliff Lee, “he just goes about his business.” I like that.
We'd all love it if players were like Santo and Banks...
… but the petulant behavior of today’s baseball player is hardly a new problem. Players in 1877 were throwing games for bribes from gamblers. Baseball has a storied history of substance abuse. Fights and violence is less prevelant now than it has been historically. And this speaks nothing to the volumes of guys who played the game and committed no crimes but walked on questionable moral ground.
Part of the greater outrage you see today vs what your heros saw is perception. Everything is “Dwight Howard reading to kids” and “peyton manning opening a wing of a new hospital”. Good stuff, but mostly PR so these dudes and their teams can look good in their community and rake in a few more sponsorships.
Part of it is the media – used to be, guys could freebase meth while playing Jenga in the dugout, but nobody outside of the stadium would know. Now, we’ve got 15 cameras on these imperfect humans every second of their lives, with TMZ and Deadspin and BCB on standby should anything break out.
And part of it is the game. It should be noted that of the 6 “heroes” you mentioned, 5 were white, and all six were born in the US. Baseball has changed, and the dynamics of the clubhouse has changed with them. Translators, cliques, cultural expectations…
You’ll never see the heros you had as a kid again, because those heroes were protected in ways guys today never will be, and played in a world our guys don’t play in.
The Cubs may be stuck in the era of Santo and Banks, where guys just came in and did what was expected without having to be “dealt with” – but that isn’t going to win a modern championship. For every Cliff Lee, just going about his business, there is a Z or MB, a talented guy who needs luck, circumstances, environment, and everything else to work well for them in order to do their best. We can keep shipping those guys off to other “low pressure” teams for pennies on the dollar, or we can adjust to the facts of the modern athlete like other modern day perpetual champion teams have done.
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Jun 26, 2010 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
GREEN GREEN AND MORE GREEN
well said!
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Intersting you mention that
I seem to recall a player, and I think it may have been Tim Raines, choosing to slide head first into second on a play so he wouldn’t break the glass containing his coke in his back pocket.
So, while we all want to think our hero’s are perfect, they are far from it.
Well said.
Today’s players are coddled growing up, there’s lots of attention on them and scrutinization is mind boggling. They aren’t perfect, will act up and you need to deal with it , with appropriate action instead of PR statments.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly
why I’m leaning towards the fire Hendry crowd.
His comments were as unprofessional as Z’s antics, and added the proverbial fuel to the fire, in addition to making Z out to be just like MB.
His back may have been against the wall, but there is a professional way to say things, and a very unprofessional way, Hendry chose the latter.
Agreed.
And his comments were hypocritical. This is the same Zambrano whom he signed to a multi-year contract. Yelling at a teammate is behavior that won’t be condoned. But punching a teammate results in millions of dollars guaranteed. Well, Mr. Hendry, you got exactly what you paid for.
"Any old kind of a run wins it!"--Jack Brickhouse
Nevertheless...
… if you look at the vast majority of World Series teams in the last 15 years — a good measuring stick since that’s after the last labor stoppage — you won’t find any who had headcases like this.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You also won't find too many GM's
who will take a headcase like Z or MB.
Additionally, I don’t think you would hear comments on a situation such as Hendry made coming from Cashman or Epstein.
Keep it in house, and don’t play the media.
That's a fair point about Hendry.
He’s handled Z wrong all along, I guess it’s not surprising but just disappointing he overreacted here to the media. He’s embarrassed he handled Z wrong or at least he should be. regardless, airing it to the media isn’t helping. The players should already know it wasn’t acceptable, he’s just burning bridges in dealing Z.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
hard to say
since i did link where he explains that more than once behind closed doors Zambrano has been talked to and warned about these type of actions. Hendry tried to be an adult and leave it out of the media until he had to suspend him yesterday
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
He technically still could have left it out of the media
his comments yesterday struck me as more attempting to save face IN the media than anything else
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions
i understand what you mean
but its also hard to when the entire baseball universe is asking the same question, you have to either answer it or lie basically.
had Hendry not done so, many would be upset that he did nothing, it was a no win situation IMHO for him
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
He could
have worded things much differently.
Irregardless of how upset he may have been, he essentially bashed Z in the media, which should be unacceptable in any venue.
It's also not very smart
It reminds me of the whole Big 12 situation with Colorado and Nebraska. The Big 12 has been telling anyone who will listen that they are better off without those two teams. Now there are several attorneys who are saying the conference might have actually hurt themselves in regards to recovering the whole of the exit penalties from NU and CU.
Hendry is going to have to try and trade Zambrano at this point. Why start detailing what a pain in the ass he has been?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions
and just like MB
He has publicly killed his trade value.
And Sosa
It’s something Hendry does that makes zero business sense
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions
And yet...
… the Cubs still have a decent player (Mike Fontenot) on the roster who they acquired in the Sosa deal.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
was he decent at the time of the trade?
or did he turn out to be decent after the trade.
I’m not that in touch with our own prospects, let alone Baltimore’s, so all I remember from that deal is saying “Mike who?”.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
True.
Nevertheless, the Cubs got value out of that deal.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
they got les value thanthey would have
if they hadn’t announced to the world that Sammy and Milton needed to get the hell off the team.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions
That was pure luck.
They sure didn’t get him because Hendry had to make himself look better, which is just what I think he was trying to do with Z and Sosa.
I mean, what good comes from releasing that video of Sosa running out on the team…Hendry just adds fuel to the problem. He should consult someone on how to handle the media in these situations because he keeps making things worse. You can say something is unacceptable and leave it at that. Don’t punk him and think you’ll get good return for him.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Spot on.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
And yet...
… the Cubs got good value in return for [name redacted].
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agreed
but Hendry has done a terrible job of keeping a lid on things, and maintaining trade value.
I’m not saying we won’t get anything good in return, but teams approach you differently when they know you HAVE to trade a player vs WANTING to trade a player.
I hope you're not saying Silva was good value at the time of the trade
Pretty sure that was more about getting rid of Bradley than it was getting Silva.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by accident,
not because Hendry handled the situation correctly
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions
This is what I meant.
Yes he had to address the media, yes he needed to say this behavior isn’t acceptable. But by mocking anger management (which would be too late now for the Cubs) and by saying he won’t be on the team…he’s telling everyone they can’t deal with him but we need to trade him to you. That’s not smart…why tell everyone he can’t be dealt with but I want you to try?
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I second that
He seemed to be more willing to shift the blame to Z as to why the whole season is bad vs bad construction and terrible contracts.
Almost like MB was the anti christ last year.
and that was my problem with it
suddenly he’s detailing why Zambrano was the one who went to the pen and everything else. I’m not defending Zambrano in any way, but it seems to me that when the club decides you’re no longer wanted, they set the bridge on fire.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep its much like a parent that handles raising a child badly.
He is embarrassed and doesn’t know he created the problem, won’t admit he failed dealing with him. He just is trying to make himself look better as if there was nothing to be done with him ever. Even if you think that is true as Hendry (and obviously it isn’t) you need to have the restraint to shut up and take your lumps, say it was bad behavior in that situation, leave it at that.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Z has been enabled...
…for a long time and the organization created a mess by not handling him with discipline sooner.
Between Bradley, Z all the bad contracts and poor roster construction, Ricketts would have to be blind to not remove Hendry after this year.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I dunno, Al...
… dangerously close to that “chicken and egg” again. Do those teams win because they don’t have head cases, or do those headcases fall in line and support a winning team, where they’d drag down a group like our Cubs?
You may not see the antics of somebody like Manny or the primadonna behavior of somebody like ARod as being as big of a problem as what we’ve had with Z or MB, but i could easily counter that those dudes may very well have caused 10x the issues if they’d been in Cubbie blue instead of with strong organizations like the Yankees and the Red Sox of the last decade. Bradley got worse when he got here… the “pressure” is something players talk about all the time… maybe the team does such a crappy job of protecting and insulating their players that this is what we end up with, and franchises with World Series appearances do a better job of controlling that behavior.
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Jun 26, 2010 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's definitely impossible these days to assemble a team
every year without one or two. You have to decide if the headache is worth the result that is reasonable to expect, and be able to handle them once you get what you know you will.
Just one reason Hendry is the wrong GM. The contracts are another. Together it’s completely wrong to have him as GM.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I know.
That is a legitimate question. I don’t know the answer.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Bullshit
if you look at the vast majority of World Series teams in the last 15 years — a good measuring stick since that’s after the last labor stoppage — you won’t find any who had headcases like this.
Manny Ramirez has 2 world series rings.
Carl Everett – Carl Everett – has a world series ring.
Roberto Alomar has 2 World Series Rings.
That’s off the top of my head.
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Manny never went off on a teammate like that.
Alomar? To use one of your favorite terms, straw man. He had the spitting incident, which was completely out of character for him.
Everett was a wacko, but nowhere near the key to a team that Zambrano was and is expected to be.
Try again.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You're moving the goalposts
Bradley never went off on a teammate either. You said World Series teams never have “headcases” and that’s just not true. I named 3 guys who were either considered clubhouse cancers or had on-field meltdowns.
There’s no need to “try again” I’m spot on here – it’s just that being on winning teams makes chemistry happen, not the other way around.
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You say
“not to make excuses for the players”, yet that is EXACTLY what you are doing. If you don’t hold players accountable for their actions, then this is what you get. Blaming the organization for actually holding player’s accountable is ridiculous. Having consequences is what will alter behavior patterns. Blaming the city or market for bad player behavior is just plain wrong.
Making lame excuses will get you more of the same, or likely, worse. You can take it to the bank.
They AREN'T excuses...
… they are the facts of the environment they exist in.
And i’m not blaming the organization for holding the player accountable, i’m blaming them for NOT doing so regularly enough to squash this type of behavior, abong other things.
You can take that to the bank too… whatever that means.
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Jun 26, 2010 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions
You & I don't often agree.
But this is well said. The only thing I’d disagree with is that Z is acting like he’s four, not 18.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Green'ed this as well.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
So here comes Z down the steps...
screaming the lyrics to “Eye of The Tiger,” when Lee, who can’t stand that song, tells Z to STFU. Z does a quick 180 and screams the lyrics even louder towards Lee. Z goes into Lee’s face and repeatedly tells him “I’m the tiger Lee!” Lee’s replies are “That’s B.S!”
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Manny being Manny is about as close to z as you can get
and it led to Manny being shipped to LAD. Sometimes a change is needed for the player, in this ase i think a change is needed for the person more than the player
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Considering how the play has been
Someone was gonna blow up. It just happened to be Z.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
*Just happened* to be Z?
It’s practically guaranteed that it will be Z that does something like this.
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jun 26, 2010 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions
blowing up is one thing but
blaming teammates is another – as Lou said ‘no one was going to catch Quentin’s drive’ -
Oh baloney
No other player on this team is as immature and classless as Zambrano. NO ONE else was going to blow up in the dugout like Zambrano. It’s always Zambrano who deos this. Have you conveniently forgotten that?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
This is exactly how you breed a problem like Z.
It’s everyone else’s fault he blew up, never the 2 year old. make some bs pr statement, say he’s gonna get help, never do anything about it. He continues the behavior when frustrated and you only have yourself to blame. Z has to have limits, he’s never had them.
I do agree the team lacks fire and enthusiasm, but you need to show it on the field. Pulling some player aside , talking to him behind closed doors…that’s a different stoy. And not by trying to bully him into performing. No one is going to respond positively like that.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
That's a perfect description
of what happened and what should have happened.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Cue the Nuns...
♫ ♪ ♬
How do you solve a problem like Zambrano?
How do you catch a bull and pin it down?
How do you find a word that means Zambrano?
A flibbertijibbet! A will-o’-the wisp! A clown!
♫ ♪ ♬
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jun 26, 2010 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
manny got in a fight with youk because he was complaining about the strike zone in 08
"Shut the f*** up" – Derrek Lee. Well said my man, well said.
by jesus christos on Jun 26, 2010 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Season going bad
Find scapegoat and get rid of him.
Team still bad.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
pretty sure
al is not suggesting the team will no longer be bad once z is gone. that’s a pretty big jump.
Yes, it is.
This team has more problems than just Z’s behavior. But you can’t have much of a team with someone like that on it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
especially
when that person is someone you are relying on to take the hill every 5th day. it’s one thing when its Bradley and you can just bench him. oddly, santo said it best following the tirade, “this guy does not belong on the mound.”
Ace thought Lee should have been suspended for yelling back.
There’s little point in trying to reason with him.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
I guess Trammel should also be suspended for yelling back as well
in the replay you see him going to Zambrano yelling WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA which also tells me Zambrano was out of line, not Lee
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Yes.
To me it’s simple. You have a two year old throwing a fit and Lee was the one to tell him that’s not acceptable. Mgmt keeps letting Z throw fits at fellow teammates with no consequences, and this is the result.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Zambrano
isn’t the scapegoat. Milton Bradley was a scapegoat last year. Nobody suggested Zambrano is the root of all things bad with the Cubs this year.
But he is a problem. And perhaps we saw a glimpse of some of the things I was told about problems with Z and Ramirez in the clubhouse.
DEJESUS!!!
I watched the outburst again last night.
It frightened me.
When you look at Zambrano’s eyes, the twitchy convulsive movements, his veins bulging out, that’s the sign of someone who has lost themselves completely in the moment; this was someone who was well past the point of self-control, who had flipped the switch and become a conduit for pure, unadulterated rage and selfishness. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that he had very little memory of the incident today, but plenty of shame. It’s a lucky thing nobody got hurt there.
That’s not fire or passion. That’s unrestrained evil.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
by Goodie1969 on Jun 26, 2010 9:39 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
"Unrestrained evil"...
… that’s a little over the top. Otherwise I agree with you completely.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Not really.
I don’t mean to state he’s an evil person, but when you allow your dark nature to consume you, surrendering to your basest instincts, that’s what I mean by evil.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
Point taken.
Which is why Z needs counseling. I hope he gets some.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I have been a huge fan of Z
I hope he does get the help he needs. And I also agree he needs to be traded or claimed off of waivers.
Yes. I don't think there is any evil here, just an inability to deal with society.
He’s been getting away with it all his life. This was how he believed you deal with problems…always worked before.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
I can see where using that word may have been a bad choice
given that that it’s frequently associated with real atrocities and such, but as I said, I meant it to express what it really means: succumbing to the darkest part of human nature. That’s what I saw Zambrano doing, and that’s why I found it so unsettling.
Let me reiterate that I don’t think Z is any different than any other flawed human being (which is all of us), but his flaws are openly visible on one of the biggest stages possible. When I see a man succumbing to the inner demons of rage, violence, etc. and losing control of his better nature, I get very concerned.
I don’t know if dumping him is the answer, but it wouldn’t bother me to see him go.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
Unfortunately, I don't think mgmt can deal with him at this point
but his contract will make trading him next to impossible, especially with how Hendry handled it. Dumping him is very hard to do, it leaves the team in a big hole. It might be the only thing to do here, mgmt has let this get so far without action it sounds like too much to expect NOW they will be able to turn Z around. You let a child get away with immaturity for years and suddenly expect him to learn its wrong…that doesn’t work well.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I really don't know
if I see him being traded.
He hasn’t performed well over the last hew years, has a huge contract, and has mood issues.
Someone may be willing to take him on, but not without the cubs eating a ton of money, and Ricketts has already said he won’t do that.
I can't stand it when the word evil starts getting thrown around.
It’s as if some external power grips people and they do horrible things be they dugout tantrums or genocides. He needs help, not an exorcism. I hope he gets it.
I've repeatedly stated that it's an internal impulse I'm talking about
not an external force. I’m not sure what’s so hard to grasp about that.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
well when you use a dictionary definition that references an external force like the devil
I think you can see where people might get that impression.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Yeah, I see your point.
With that word in there, it’s like all the words around it just disappear for some.
I should have gone with:
harmful or tending to harm; something that is harmful or undesirable
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
Oh really?
Me:
If he goes elsewhere and flourishes, its on the Cubs for not being able to figure out how to balance his talent and his attitude in order to get the most out of their investment. He is who he is, but in my mind, dealing with his (and other players) mental ticks is no different than dealing with their physical idiosyncrasies. We hire trainers and specialists for their bodies, their diets, their swings… why wasn’t somebody hired to try to get MB’s mind right?
You:
The Cubs didn’t have to hire someone to "get the mind right" of the other 24 players on the team. Why should this player get special treatment?
This was just over three months ago, back when there was still the hope for this season. It wasn’t the first “should the team be getting these known headcases some mental help” debate we’d had. I’m glad you are coming around to the idea, really, but i fear it’s too late to try to inject some mental stability in to this current crew.
Hopefully part of the “rebuilding” or “retooling” or whatever it is the team does this winter will include some work on a Sport psychology department or something. Seems like a small price to pay, at least compared to our current strategy of regularly suspending players making seven plus digits a season.
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Jun 26, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
I didn't say the Cubs had to get him counseling.
I just said I hope he gets some.
That said, yes, the Cubs should invest in such a department — not just for situations like this, but to help any player who wants or needs it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
They keep sweeping it under the rug and need to learn to actually deal with it
instead of just issuing a PR statement.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Really Al, If I may, you and Andrew are not that far apart on this.
Z has been coddled and should have been dealt with. I think you two both see that.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Does not
every team HAVE an on staff psychologist? If so. then the cubs need top seriously look at replacing said psychologist.
Maybe Z needs meds, but the bottom line is that the organisation as a whole had tolerated this for so long, from so many other players, that for Hendry to come out and throw darts @ Z is almost comical.
It’s as if he has an opportunity to say “See, it’s not really my fault, he is the bad guy, lets punish him”
Not condoning childish antics, but, this goes so much deeper than just one player who is known to be moody, having a childish rant.
Absolutely.
Obviously with Bradley we know Z isn’t the only guy who mgmt has had no idea how to deal with, nor is Z going to be the last guy to act like this. It’s long past time to learn how to handle pampered and coddled athletes that act like infants, to deal with them instead of coddling them.
Anger managment, counseling, LIMITS for their behavior are needed cause they will get more guys like this in the future.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
The Cubs hired their team psychologist in 2010
He even acted as bat-boy for a 3 game winning streak. He’s probably now wondering if he’s getting paid enough for this job.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Jun 26, 2010 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions
How do you know they don't?
Don’t you think that’s the kind of thing they’d, you know, keep confidential?
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Too little
and too late. The Cubs have coddled him since he’s been here. We all know the phrase “It’s just Z being Z”. He’s already been given an excuse for anything he does. And if he’d been 12-4 and we were challenging for the playoffs. that’s exactly the phrase that Jim and Lou would have trotted out to explain the events.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Well said.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
aaaaaat?
That’s unrestrained evil.
That’s unrestrained hyperbole. If you think someone getting angry playing a game is “unrestrained evil” you either lack perspective or have never actually seen something evil.
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If I had to define a baseball player as approaching "unrestrained evil"
I’d cite Ty Cobb as the likeliest candidate. To me, Carlos Zambrano is just a man-child with a furious temper.
I'll go to my grave believing Armando Galarraga tossed the 21st perfect game in MLB history.
Again...
Violent outbursts of anger that are uncontrolled and untempered is allowing your darkest nature to control you.
A dictionary definition of evil:
(of a force or spirit) embodying or associated with the forces of the devil
I think uncontrolled rage would fall under that category. It is behavior springing from a dark place in the heart. He wasn’t just getting angry. He was being selfish, destructive, and aggressive toward his teammates. I found it extremely unsettling to watch. YMMV
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
Wow.
So it’s a sanctimonious lack of perspective. Got it.
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Behavior doesn't come from the heart.
Nothing comes from the heart but pumped blood. The brain is his problem area so he will be seeing a psychiatrist, not a priest.
And nothing comes from the brain but electrical impulses.
Where exactly did I suggest he see a priest?
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
Not the devil per se,
just those behaviors or impulses typically associated with him by religious dogma (to which I do not necessarily subscribe, mind you).
I wish now I had just said “darkness” instead of “evil” so that this whole sub-thread would have been unnecessary.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
darkness
so now its a day/night thing? or maybe a Star Wars thing with the Darkside?
/sarcasm
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Yes, my son.

"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
Well, I guess I'm the young idiot that said that Z's tirade was a good thing.
But I always thought that playing with passion was a good thing. I just can’t see it with this team.
by braziliancubsfan on Jun 26, 2010 9:44 AM CDT reply actions
As I wrote...
… you are confusing a tantrum with playing with passion. The two things are NOT the same.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
i want to think them care, but other than marmol and byrd, what other (position) player plays with passion?
I saw AJ Pyerzinski ground out into a double play against the Braves on Thursday, and he slammed his helmet at the ground. It’s rare to see a hitter on the Cubs show some emotion after an at bat, especially when they fail to drive a guy home, which has been happening all year.
by braziliancubsfan on Jun 26, 2010 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions
I have seen many Cubs players throw bats down in disgust after making outs.
I still don’t think that showing that means you care any more than anyone else does. Also, I don’t think anyone should hold up AJ as an example of how to behave during a baseball game.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I've seen Derrek Lee slam his helmet after an AB
Game 3 of the NLDS against the Dodgers.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
ok, but he went 0 for 3 in that game, and he's been hitting better as of late.
He knows that he should have gotten the job done, but he didn’t. Yeah, the Cubs hitters might throw their bats in disgust, but that’s after striking out. They don’t even put the ball in play.
by braziliancubsfan on Jun 26, 2010 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions
being mad at yourself isn't throwing a tantrum.
by braziliancubsfan on Jun 26, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
I still don't see how throwing a helmet helps you win games.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
of course it doesn't, but with the score tied at 0 in the 7th,and with men on 1st and 2nd
with one out, grounding out into a double play should bring some feeling of disgust that you have.
by braziliancubsfan on Jun 26, 2010 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions
How do you know they don't show that away from your view?
This isn’t a stage play where you expect actors to emote on cue.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I dunno Al. Nothing wrong with you breaking a bat occasionally
Or throwing your hat down sometimes when you get a called 3rd strike…long as you’re not throwing it at anyone. Many players do it and don’t get into trouble.This I can kinda understand…frustration you failed yourself. You know they want to win.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Sure.
But do you have to do that every time you make an out just to prove to fans that you care? I’d say no.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
always reminds me of the saying
act like you been there before
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Absolutely not.
Someone doing that will occasionaly go too far, throwing tantrums that don’t help…like a Rodman. You have to deal with it. The problem yesterday was no one ever has.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know what you are getting at.
Are you saying the Cubs don’t care because the don’t show it? Are you saying the Cubs should show that they care?
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Ichiro has a passion, Pete Rose had a passion
Zambrano has a PROBLEM.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
by BeerCub on Jun 26, 2010 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
^ me like this
I'll go to my grave believing Armando Galarraga tossed the 21st perfect game in MLB history.
+1
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Green'ed.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions
+1 and Rec'd
"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will
Avatar provided courtesy of AndrewJStone.
The problem with that type of fire
Is that had it come from any other player on the team we might change our stance on it.
The thing is, Zambrano is considered unstable and his outbursts are no longer welcome on the team. It’s considered childish and completely unprofessional. Had it been a guy such as DLee who exploded or even someone quieter such as Theriot, we might have a different opinion.
In fact I believe we’d say, someone on the team needed to stand up for this.
Z’s outburst was not necessary but it wasn’t from one game of frustrations. It was from the whole season and probably dating back to the 2008 playoffs where he stood and watched his infield literally implode while he tried to pitch a good game.
I’m not defending what he did, but I believe a guy like Z has a bullseye on his back for these sort of incidents. It’s his own fault he has this bullseye but that’s the reality of it and most likely he’s going to be gone from the team.
I don't agree.
Again, do you see ANY other team having such outbursts and winning as a result? Name ONE current team, or any since those Jackson/Martin Yankees, who have done this and succeeded.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
2007 Cubs
We can say it was Lou’s outburst but the Barrett/Z argument was pretty close to that too.
My bigger point was we expect this sort of behavior from Z so its easier to blame/suspend him and blow it up. I think if this were between two players that weren’t in the spotlight as much it wouldn’t be as big of a deal.
However, it does shed light on what you mentioned a couple weeks ago Al on how the clubhouse is when the cameras are not on.
That's crazy. Barrett/Z didn't help the team and any player going nuts like that yesterday
wouldn’t help the team either. Yes being frustrated and yelling at yourself , to the media happens…but attacking the other players just starts brawls and escalates things.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
It was a couple years before the Bronx Zoo Yankees
but the mid-70s Oakland A’s come to mind.
Furthermore, I use them as an example of how grumpy teams actually have chemistry. The A’s back then would keep each other in check, making sure everyone played hard as a team and didn’t dog it. Trouble was, they enforced the team concept with fists.
I'll go to my grave believing Armando Galarraga tossed the 21st perfect game in MLB history.
I'm not sure exactly what point you were making
in comparing the various sports. Hockey and Basketball are far more abusive to the human body than baseball by far. Hockey, for a player that sees consistent ice time is the equivalent to being to being in a 6 round boxing match almost every other night. Hockey players, especially those on the Hawks can attest to the amount of time they spend on the ice during practice between games. Basketball players suffer from more knee, lower joint and tendon problems than baseball players. And yes during the season, they spend a lot of time with each other.
BTW, we have recently seen the Lakers win three championships while their two star players absolutely despised each other. Hockey players drop the gloves with each other all the time in practice and I do mean ALL THE TIME, and that even happens on good teams.
This type of behavior doesn’t just exist in baseball, it happens in all sports. A bunch of man-child’s, that are coddled from the moment they begin getting scouted.
Again, I guarantee you Brenly has seen this before on some of his own teams, I’ll take his word for it.
My point is, it DOESN'T happen in baseball...
… and shouldn’t. As you correctly point out, the other sports have much more physical contact and that can lead to these sorts of confrontations.
Finally, no, players in other sports don’t spend as much time with each other as baseball players do. Baseball players spend eight hours a day almost every day in clubhouses together. In other sports, many have frequent off days during the year, and other days when it’s just a couple hours of practice.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It doesn't?
I’m sure it happens all the time, maybe not on full display like the Cubs have shown over the last few seasons but I’m sure these dynamics exist in the majority of clubhouses.
BTW, To suggest that it’s only a couple hours of practice in between games is complete;y wrong. In football for example, if the team plays on Sunday then they usually have monday’s off with film studies and then meetings with their respective position coaches. The rest of the week consists of game planning, practices, treatments, and more film reviews. During the football season. it’s a full-time job. In hockey it’s the same thing but on a shorter schedule, game planning for their next opponent and then implementation in practice that can last 3-5 hours. In Hockey the travel is more extensive, while baseball players get to plant their flag for three sometimes four days in any given city, it’s usually one to two days in Hockey followed by another flight to another city that maybe over 2500 miles from home. Remember they play all over the U.S. and Canada.
by troutfishin on Jun 26, 2010 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
When the Lakers won their championships with Kobe and Shaq
“absolutely despising” each other, as you correctly noted, it was by playing disciplined and focused ball on the court. I never saw Shaq and Kobe go at each other like rabid dogs on the sidelines. That animosity was well-publicized, but mostly private.
I credit Phil Jackson with managing that team as a solid unit who did their jobs despite any off-court disagreements. Lou Piniella is no Phil Jackson, so I would say he also shoulders some of the responsibility here. Not blame necessarily, but he has fostered the “dead-ass” atmosphere by his bewildered defeatism IMO.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
by Goodie1969 on Jun 26, 2010 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
its not uncommon for winning to allow people who dont like each other to get along
Pippen / Rodman is a perfect example as well
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
And since you mention Rodman...
… Rodman was a complete wacko off the court. Nevertheless, he worked hard at his craft, knew his place on the team and played to win — and never, to my recollection, called out a teammate in public.
Dennis Rodman was a winner. Carlos Zambrano is not.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
well, technically, that happened "off" the court... ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Rodman being a looney off the court
was a marketing ploy that worked to the nth degree. how else does a player who plays defense and rebounds without scoring much get $10m a season? He was one of the hardest workers in the game no doubt.
that doest change that he was not liked by Pippen or Jordan off the court (Pippen in particular).
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
or the official he headbutt
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
or Pippens chin
while a Piston
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Yeah, but...
His marketing ploy seems to have paid off in other ways not basketball related too. He “starred” zin Double Team with Jean Cleade Van Damme. That movie won 124 Oscars and Dennis Rodman won “Best Supporting Actor”.
nice way to single out one item
and ignore all the other things that went well for him it
Nike was a perfect example of the opposite of what you said. as was his bar that he had in Chicago during the title runs, and so on
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
I wasn't ignoring it.
I was just making fun of a crappy movie. And I agree with you. As far as marketing goes, Dennis Rodman was a self-marketing genius.
ahh ok gotcha
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Oh good Lord...
Dennis Rodman was a winner. Carlos Zambrano is not.
This is all sorts of ridiculous.
how is that ridiculous?
Rodman has 5 rings and was an All NBA Defensive player year after year.
Zambrano, has no rings and has always been said that he has not reached his potential because of his inability to stay in the game mentally.
Zambrano is lucky that he didnt have a team mate such as Lynn Nolan Ryan who would have been mnore than happy to step into Zambrano’s face to put him in his place accordingly.
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
I think there
is a correlation between Championships that follow players from team to team.
by troutfishin on Jun 26, 2010 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
yes some players make a team a winner
until recent when Duncan took it over, Rodman had the best win loss percentage in NBA history. Look at how his teams did with him and without him (not saying it had nothing to do with the rest of the team, but that is something you cannot disregard). Phil Jackson also credited Rodman with being the best athlete he ever coached. Rodman was a clown in some ways, but where he went teams won games. That counts for something.
twice he helped San Antonio set their franchise record for wins
helped the Bulls win 72 games
i wish i knew more links for basketball historical stats and could provide the win loss stats for him and his ranking. it was something i had heard about when Duncan moved ahead of him
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
He could be an infant off the court and with others, the media,
places like tv shows. But on the court, while he sometimes threw tantrums and behaved like a child…he didn’t take that out on his teammates. That’s the difference. He played as a team. Z is fighting his own team and doesn’t know how to deal with anger and frustration in a productive way…he’s been coddled all his life and with the Cubs. It’s too late now, time to move on and have mgmt learn from this.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Rodman appreciated what he had with the NBA
and didnt take it for granted IMHO
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
He also had teammates and mgmt calling him out when he went too far.
That’s what has been missing here. When anyone stands up to Z, he explodes and mgmt has swept it under the rug. It came to a breaking point yesterday.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
no doubt
there were rules for him that were different from the rest, but also were made for him to keep in line, he knew it and he never blamed others for anything he did.
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Teams become winners.....
….. when certain players and coaches are added. Del Harris couldn’t make it to the NBA championship with the Lakers. Phil Jackson takes the same group and wins three in a row. Jack McKeon takes the Marlins to the title. Etc.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
You have a point here.
In no way could Rodman carry the team alone. He had a supporting cast along with him.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions
really?
Awards: NBA All-Defensive first team, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1995, 1996; NBA defensive player of the year, 1990, 1991; NBA All-Star team, 1990, 1992; IBM Award for all-around contributions to team’s success, 1992.
you are not giving him enough credit IMHO
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Okay.
You win.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
never thought i would quote bleacherreport
He also led the league in field goal percentage in 1989 with the Detroit Pistons.
While Rodman’s offensive game was essentially non-existent, (his career high was 11.6 points per game during his sophomore NBA season) he averaged 13.1 rebounds per game for his career, good for 11th all-time in the NBA.
Rodman played for the Pistons, Spurs, Bulls, Lakers, and Mavericks over the course of 14 seasons.
From 1990 through 2000 (the last season of his career), Rodman never averaged fewer than 11.2 rebounds per game.
During a four-year stretch, he averaged 18.7, 18.3, 17.3, and 16.8 rebounds per game.
For perspective, Orlando’s Dwight Howard led the NBA in rebounding this past season, averaging 13.8 rebounds a night.
“The Worm” shares an NBA Finals record with 11 offensive rebounds in a single game, having done it twice during the 1996 Finals as a member of the Bulls.
His single-game career high for rebounds is 34.
and slightly off topic
Yahoo Sports quoted Mr. Wesley saying, “(LeBron’s) up out of there (Cleveland) … We’re going to Chicago … and Chris Bosh is coming, too.”
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Like I said, you win.
This just further proves the point that you are right and I had no idea what I was talking about.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
i wasnt adding it to prove or disprove
just to show the difference between Rodman the “role player” as many think of him vs Zambrano. I only replied to your post to keep it in the chain for flow reasons
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
I know, I saw that.
I just never realized that Rodman was such an integral part of the Bulls teams of the 1990s.
Remember, I was 13 when the Bulls won their last championship in 1998. Many of my memories from that team are of MJ and Pippen leading it. And other memories I have from those days are slowly fading away.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I once read...
… about Rodman wheeling a tv on to a basketball court, and spending hours studying video and live balls as they bounced off the backboard and rim to better understand where they were going to end up.
He got so good at it, he could watch a player take a shot, estimate where it was going to hit the basket, and position himself for the rebound before anybody else on the court even recognized it was going to miss.
Freaking incredible.
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Jun 26, 2010 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Indeed, it is incredible.
I’ve never seen anyone else do that, before or since.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions
rebounding is how he got on the court in Detroit
they had too many scorers and that he knew what he had to do to play. IMHO he should be in the HOF
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
I don't think anyone ever questioned Rodman's work ethic or dedication to his craft.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I promise you I won't anymore.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think he used video, but Yaz used to spend hours and hours and hours...
…out in LF at Fenway before and during practice, watching how balls bounce off the Green Monster. No one knew how to play that wall better than him – he had it down to an art and a science.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Ted Williams
had this almost anal philosophy to hitting.
I found a site with his methods, and it was amasing to see how truly methodical he was.
I think the closest comparison to his knowledge of hitting would be that of Greg Maddux in pitching, a true student of the game.
Since I live in an area full of Red Sox fans,
I got to see lots of Red Sox games on NESN. There is a sense of physics to the Green Monster. And from what I recall, the Red Sox LF’ers could typically judge hits off the monster better than players on the opposing teams.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions
This is a little OT
This is all such a [*] mess with no easy answers.
- insert your favourite expletive here
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind." - Terry 'Fat Tub of Goo' Forster
by eths on Jun 26, 2010 9:54 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
I'm rather partial to "Belgium."
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
"donkey grabbing, butt munching"
I'll go to my grave believing Armando Galarraga tossed the 21st perfect game in MLB history.
I agree with Bob here
Sorry, Al. He was right. This has been a “dead ass” team all season that has mostly underperformed as a group. There have been a few bright spots, but it’s not as if Zambrano was completely unjustified for being angry. Whether you agree with the tantrum or not, shipping Zambrano off somewhere isn’t going to fix the problems with this team. Just because we managed to catch lightning in a bottle with the Bradley trade does not mean that’s the norm.
Yesterday was a great day in baseball, but it’s sad that this is detracting from that.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Respectfully disagree.
The team has underperformed, yes. Yelling and screaming like a four year old at a respected teammate? How is that supposed to help?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
And
this isn’t his first blow up. Watch sports center and see his montage of “greatest hits”. His act is old and that’s why most Cub fans are tired of it.
That montage was embarrassing
And anyone who sees it and is inclined to still defend Zambranois clueless.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
sad but true
wish he could get it together and keep it together, but i dont see it happening and its time to part ways
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
They've allowed it to get too far. There's no going back now and fixing it.
You allow a child to grow up expecting to get away with this crap and then one day, suddenly set limits…it’ll take a long time for him to understand he should have them, and he’s a grown man besides being an infant inside. Move on and learn , Cubs mgmt. You allow this behavior, handle it with PR statements, and this is the result you get. Bradley just shows you that you haven’t handled it well before and the Cubs will sign guys like this again.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
A teammate who escalated
Z was shouting at no one in particular, Lee calls him out and then Z directs his tirade at the guy who calls him out. I don’t really care for Lee as it is, so I’m extremely biased here.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Apparently so.
Derrek Lee is a team leader. He has every right to call out a teammate who’s going on a childish tirade in the dugout.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Some team leader
He only seems to have great seasons when it doesn’t matter. I don’t buy the whole team leader thing, to be honest. Lou is the leader, or at least he should be.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
He hasn't been.
In any case, your bias against Lee has you seeing this situation backwards, in my opinion.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
And I respectfully disagree
In my opinion, you’re too focused on the tantrum to bother with the thought of breaking it down. It’s just my opinion, of course.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Which you are entitled to.
If this was a one-shot deal, maybe I’d be more willing to give it a pass. It’s not — it’s the latest in a long series AND happened after Z promised that he’d never do it again.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Soriano said he was tired of Zambrano's actions
according to the post game talks on CSN, which tells me it wasnt Lee who made this worse
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
If Soriano says that
There is more trouble there than meets the eye. Sori has a great discipline for not overreacting to fans booing, etc.
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
He did this all last night. He has some vendetta against Lee and won't see reason.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions
LMAO
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
You don't buy the idea of the team leader?
Or the idea that Lee is the team leader?
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Only seems to have great seasons when it doesn't matter?????
What kind of crap is that?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
insanity.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Wishful Thinking
What would help the team, albeit indirectly, would be for MLB and the players’ union to recognize that Zambrano is being spiteful and to understand that he isn’t doing what he is under contract to do because of it. Wishful thinking but the Cubs would get out of some of this contract without another team having to pay him instead and without the Cubs having to play with a 24-man roster.
by AboutTheCubs on Jun 26, 2010 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Baseball is a long season, which is why having an edge can help at times
I’d rather have a team of guys who get after it on a regular basis as opposed to what appears to be a lifeless team.
With that in mind, Zambrano’s outburst was completely over-the-top and unprofessional. Berating a teammate in the dugout accomplishes nothing. And judging from the replays, it definitely looked as if Derrek Lee is completely sick and fed up with Zambrano’s act.
If anything, I’ll give Lee credit for seemingly telling Zambrano to “knock it the [blank] off” and focus on the next inning. That’s what leaders do, in my opinion.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on Jun 26, 2010 9:55 AM CDT reply actions 4 recs
How about Oliver Perez for Zambrano?
If the Mets would offer that swap of headaches, I’d make it in a heartbeat.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on Jun 26, 2010 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
That might work.
Perez is much like Carlos Silva — someone who has had major league success, but now is failing in a place not suited for him.
I’d do it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'd do it yesterday
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
I'd do it the day before yesterday
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Rec'd
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
He may go somewhere else, and he might be majorly successful
I don’t care if he is successful or not somewhere else, or if he still has the ability to be successful. I don’t think that he will be successful here.
The plain truth just might be That we might have to pay him big bucks to be successful somewhere else. That’s not going to settle well around here if it does happen. I told myself, even if it does happen: “He probably wouldn’t be as successful here.”
by bilbosbuttons on Jun 26, 2010 9:58 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
why didnt Z jump on Rami for not diving as well?
why single out Lee?
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
As I said above.
Lee is a respected team leader. He has every right to try to stop such a tantrum.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Z wasn't doing anything particularly stupid apart from the tantrum
The guy was throwing a tantrum at no one in particularly and Lou just allowed it to escalate between two teammates in the dugout. If Lou didn’t want that behavior, he should have stopped it from the beginning before it escalated.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
The whole thing lasted maybe 30 seconds.
We’ve seen it over and over on tape and so it’s easy to say that. Not quite so easy when you’re in the heat of the moment.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agree with your take on the whole thing, Al.
I think some fans get frustrated and feel helpless when their team screws up and it makes them feel better to see a player slam a helmet down or break a bat. But as you point out, baseball is a different sport. Seeing a guy hit a home run and point at the sky and high five the coaches hard might excite the crowd, but it has zero to do with whether the guy on deck has success or fails in his at bat.
It's insanity to deal with this. The guy stomps through the dugout, calls everyone
an idiot screaming at them, Lee stands up for himself and tells him that’s bullshit (since Z was more than half the problem and shifting blame) and it’s Lee’s fault when Z charges him like a rhino? You’re crazy. The guy is calling everyone an idiot , and Lee objects to him acting like a 2 year old and it’s his fault. You’re nuts.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
the point is the tantrum WAS particularly stupid -
and should never have been started
And I've seen men lose their cool before
Escalating an already bad situation is equally stupid.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
I'm not sure what wouldn't have escalated the situation.
From the looks of Zambrano, someone could have good-naturedly put an arm around him and said, “Come on, man, just relax. Let’s go get ’em next inning” and he might still have gone haywire.
He was fishing for an excuse to go off, and he found one.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
by Goodie1969 on Jun 26, 2010 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
He was already going off.
You’re crazy Ace. Z was already flipped out, don’t try to blame a man standing up to that bullying crap.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Excellent point Goodie
Last night my wife commented, “Can you imagine if it was Carlos Zambrano on the receiving end of Jim Joyce’s blown call?” There would still be nuclear fallout hovering over Lake Michigan…
But to your point, yesterday’s incident would have been a great time for some Galarraga-Joyce sportsmanship. Maybe the reason it didn’t happen was because the rest of the Cubs literally fear for their safety when Z goes nuts like he did. Can’t say I’d blame them!
I'll go to my grave believing Armando Galarraga tossed the 21st perfect game in MLB history.
in al honesty Lou should not have to stop it, nor should Lee or anyone else
Zambrano should not be acting like he is getting ready for round 5 for the UFC title in the Cubs dugout
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
lou wasnt even in the actual dugout when z started yelling
lou popped out of wherever he was when lee started yelling
"Shut the f*** up" – Derrek Lee. Well said my man, well said.
by jesus christos on Jun 26, 2010 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Haven't heard or seen anything yet that makes it sound like Zambrano was
specifically focused on calling Lee out – seems like he was blaming everyone and it wasn’t about him and Lee until Lee told him to shut up (in general not to shut up about him)
That's what it looked like to me
From what I’ve seen of Zambrano’s outbursts in the past, if he’s mad at anyone in particular, you’ll know it.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Lee stood up for every player in the dugout
he didnt call Zambrano out from waht I saw
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
can we stop with the team leader crap
what leadership has he shown? I like Lee, but he isn’t a leader anymore than Theriot is.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Leadership =
Something totally absent from the Cubs MLB club this year.
yup
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions
YOU define leadership, since you're the one claiming over and over that he's a leader
I asked, what leadership has he shown? This team is absolutely rudderless, if he’s a “leader” he’s a leader who isn’t leading anyone anywhere.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
No, you define it, because you are calling him out on not being one.
Tell me what he should do or have done to show leadership. Be specific.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
So, basically you won't answer the question?
What leadership qualities has he shown? Has he pulled a player aside who was struggling and worked with him? Has he called a team meeting? Has he even led by example by ANY accounts this season? What goddamn leadership qualities do you think he’s shown?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I do not know the answers to that question.
Swearing doesn’t make your point any better, incidentally.
He might have done those things in private. I don’t know and neither do you. But I’d say there’s a fair chance he HAS done those things — you’re accusing him of not doing things, and you have no way of knowing whether those things have occurred or not.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I see, so you have no idea if he IS a leader
but you’ve decided that he is, without so much an iota of proof
Meanwhile, I have to prove a negative. Makes perfect sense.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks for trolling.
Lovely parting gifts. Enough.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If you believe calling you out for a nonsense argument is trolling
then call me mister troll. You make a claim OVER AND OVER AND OVER without anything to back it up, but I’m a troll when I call you on it. Utter hogwash
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I think that Starlin Castro is the true leader of this team
prove me wrong Al
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I think his brother Raúl is the leader now...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jun 26, 2010 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I've said this before
and I’ll say it again.
You cannot teach, or lead the unwilling, sometimes you just stop trying, no matter how good your leadership skills are.
I’m not saying that Lee isn’t a good leader, but this just isn’t a good team, on so many different levels.
We can argue the semantics of what makes a good leader all day long, but the fact still remains, you can’t lead the completely lost.
especially when everyone knows it's really Mike Quade
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know how we're defining "leader"
But according to Wikipedia (yeah, yeah), Lee is one of four players who have been named captains of their team in MLB.
well, that would mean that someone WANTS him to be the leader
I don’t know that he’s actually leading anyone anywhere
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
that to me would say he is a leader on the team by title
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
and it says to me that the team wants him to be the leader
has he demonstrated any actual leadership qualities?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't bother.
I already asked and he won’t answer.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'm thinking
this team is lacking in leadership.
Regardless of skills and qualities, it’s a sinking ship.
Here's one example of leadership I can recall
Several years ago the St. Louis pitcher Darryl Kile passed away unexpectedly while the Cardinals were in town, and it still wasn’t public knowledge yet as game time approached.
I’m pretty sure it was Joe Girardi who went on the field and addressed the crowd, telling everyone game had been postponed. Didn’t explain why (and he was right not to) but got the message across to everyone at Wrigley that day.
I’m guessing Joe was team “captain” at the time, so it’s possible someone just said “Hey, it’s the captain’s job to go out there.” But I’m pretty sure that even if he hadn’t been captain, everyone involved would have looked to Joe to go out there and speak for the team.
That’s the kind of quiet yet strong team leadership that I can see DLee providing. What he’s lacking in, IMO, is fiery strong leadership. Actually the whole team is lacking in it. And no Al, fiery doesn’t mean 4 year old throwing a tantrum. Fiery can be a good thing too.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jun 26, 2010 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
GREAT EXAMPLE
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Thank you.
That’s exactly what I’m talking about.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
But that's only half the issue, Al
This team needs more than quiet strong leadership – it needs some fire too. Some controlled fire. Sure Lou (or any manager) can provide some of that at strategic times but frankly, I think it’s more effective when it comes from the player(s).
And I don’t think we’ve had that kind of leadership on the Cubs since Kerry Wood and…
[ pause here while I wait for NBF to look away ]
…Mark DeRosa.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Right.
That’s not “fire”. That’s quiet leadership. Yelling and screaming — that’s not baseball, to me. Again, as I noted, I didn’t see the Red Sox do that this year when they clawed back from a slow start to the wild card lead.
Again, name me a single World Series team from the last 15 years that has got there by being “fiery”.
You can’t, because there isn’t one.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Again, the question is
What is it that you need to see to be convinced? A lot of things go on in the clubhouse that we simply don’t know about. Since the only fact we have is that he is the team captain of the team, I’m going to assume he’s the leader. Whether or not he’s a good one is up for debate.
Anything!
Quotes from other players saying how he really helped them in situation X. Or a younger player saying how he really helped him to adjust to the new role. Or the manager saying how influential he has been. I just simply don’t recall anything being said to convince me that Derrek is a true team leader.
And, for clarification, if he’s not then that’s fine. I’m not looking for him to be. I just take issue with people who vocally claim that he is (i.e. Al) and then back it up with nothing.
Agreed.
Z was screaming at the team(and/or himself) and Lee told him to shut it. With Lee yelling back at Z when everyone else was ignoring it makes me think Z said something that Lee did not like at all.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Good for DLee
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
As a team leader should is right.
Why anyone thinks that escalates it or is a problem I can’t understand. The problem is Z was acting like a 2 year old and finally someone told him there are limits out there. He didn’t like that. There is a problem from the mgmt coddling him…but it sure ain’t Lee.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
you keep saying it, that doesn't make it true
especially since you can offer nothing up to back up your claims
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions
I was very busy all day yesterday and missed this
Read the paper this morning, said WTF, and looked in here to see what Al said about it.
I am more than a little shocked NOW that this is another “Lou has gotta go” column. THAT is the major point to be gotten from this? Z threw a tantrum like a two-year-old. Shouldn’t this be about him? Good Lord.
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
Everything is a "Lou has got to go" post nowadays.
A post about kittens and puppies playing has to have “Lou has got to go” in there.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
That's what you got out of this?
That I wrote one sentence about the manager having to go? You think that was my major point? I suggest you read it again.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes, Al
I think that what Z did was a goddamn outrage, and I am tired of it, and I think that we agree on that.
But still, you managed to work in your by now standard “Lou must go”. It seems that a chorus of that must go in every tune of the day, even if the focus should be Z. I find it maddening.
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
I think Lou's lack of leadership is part of the problem.
But you focused on one sentence of a long post when that wasn’t even the main point.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I felt the same with with the 'lame joke' in the previous game recap
‘But still, you managed to work in your by now standard "Lou must go". It seems that a chorus of that must go in every tune of the day’ – it’s not necessarily the focus on one sentence of a long post – its just noting that every post has a similar sentence -
Let me try to explain it better, Al
Your entire post was like Paul Henreid’s orders to the policeman at the end of Casablanca. He details the crimes that just occurred, man murdered, letters of transit stolen, and then says…go round up the usual suspects…even though he is standing next to the man who committed the crime.
A few words can change the tone of a long rant.
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
You're the only one who seemed to see it that way.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Make that two.
It wasn’t one sentence – it was a whole paragraph. You’re getting very predictable in your old age, Al. I may have to start posting See-n-Say pictures replies to your posts as well as Doggie’s… ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Any recap is going to have points people disagree with.
To expect a recap to be perfect, or think that a few words mean the whole thing is wrong is expecting Al to be perfect. I think you are expecting perfection here; this is a blog, Al doesn’t spend days perfecting his statements and can’t.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
i agree with Al. Lou must go.
Z wouldn’t have done this with a strong manager at the healm.
"I'm not much of a chemistry guy, you know. Chemistry to me is a pinch-hit double with the bases loaded"--Jim Frey, Chicago Tribune, 1985.
by zevkalman on Jun 26, 2010 11:15 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
It has a place, but not in this case.
Oh, it has a place in any competitive sport. It isn’t all that different in practice than the manager getting thrown out.
BUT, that being said, it is nothing but destructive IMO when it is done this late in the process. This team is dead. If this happened in May, I might be OK with it, but now it just looks desperate, dumb, and self-serving for psycho-Z. Now it is just sad.
The other sad thing, is that (obviously) Z is one who should be yelled-at. If Marlon Byrd challenged Z, D Lee, Aramis, and Soriano to get their sh-t together, and if he said he was embarrassed to play with so many veterans who don’t care, I would be totally fine with it, and I would welcome him to take a swing at any of those dogs.
Managers getting thrown out, in general, is a counterproductive thing to winning.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Answer me this...
If Zambrano just went into the dugout and had that tantrum, screaming at no one in particular as he initially did, would all of you be this outraged? Or is it more because of the altercation between Z and Lee?
If the latter… it’s time to reassess your stance. Because Derrek Lee is the one who went after Z in the dugout, NOT the other way around. Z simply responded.
I don't see it as Lee going after Z..
I saw it as Z screaming at the team(which Lou said was about not diving for the ball that went past Lee and Rami.) Lee was sticking up for his team and himself.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Zambrano should have been yelling at a mirror
for a 0-2 Three Run HR
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
I'm wondering if Z was putting some blame on himself...
but he didn’t get it out clearly. Doesn’t seem like it, but maybe.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
While putting blame on his teammates of course.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Nonsense.
Lee went after Z? What video were you watching?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Umm...
the real one?
Z is walking the opposite direction of Lee yelling at no one in particular when Derrek starts yelling at him. Not sure what you’re watching.
From what Lou and Hendry said...
and what I get from the video, Z was going after the team and embarrassing them. Lee could have just meant for Z to cool it because they were on tv and whatnot. Z then went and told Lee something that Lee replied was B.S. So Z told Lee something that Lee thought was untruthful or unfair.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Lee turned around and told Z
to STFU. Then Z got into Lee’s face. I imagine Lee was just standing up for his play and the rest of his teammates fielding.
Right, exactly...
which is my point. Lee initiated the altercation with Zambrano. NOT the other way around. Call it standing up for your team. Call it starting a potential fight. Call it what you will. Fact is, Lee is the one who initiated it.
No, he did not.
Z was yelling and screaming before Lee said a word. To accuse Lee of starting this altercation is denying the facts.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He absolutely...
100% did! Watch the video, Al. Players get pissed off and yell about shit all the time. Was Z wrong to start yelling? Yes. But HE WASN’T YELLING AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR! Derrek Lee is the person who made it confrontational. Up until that point, Z was just acting like a big idiot.
i would bet my testicles
Zambrano was calling players out and out of line for Lee to say something as he did.
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
So you're assuming that...
Zambrano went into the dugout and started screaming in english? Correct? I wouldn’t ever bet my testicles on anything, but I’d bet something else that he was yelling in his native language. Which, unless I’m mistaken, Derrek Lee does not speak. So I think it’s safe to assume that Lee was reacting to the fact that he was yelling and going berserk, not at what he was saying. Since, you know, he probably didn’t understand what was being said.
if Lee had no clue what Zambrano was saying as you claim
then Lee would not have said BULLSHIT to Zambrano once. You are dead wrong, sorry.
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Fair point.
But neither one of us knows what exactly was said, or who it was said to. What we DO know, is that Zambrano was walking down the dugout when Lee yelled at him from behind. Thus starting the whole confrontation between the two.
we do know the basis
zambrano was complaiing that people were not diving for balls, as was stated by many during post game interviews. maybe we dont know the exact colorful metaphores used by Zambrano, but that is why Lee and others told him enough is enough (Trammal and others as you continue to miss also jumped into zambranos shit on this one)
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Trammel...
said “whoa whoa whoa” to Z as he and Lee were getting in each other’s face. He didn’t “jump into his shit”, which is a very strange way of phrasing things, by the way.
he was jumping Zambrano for his actions
there is a reaosn he went towards Z for that
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
it is obvious you want to make zambrano into the innocent
one for this, while blaming all those around him instead, i agree to disagree, as i am not going to waste more time trying to explain this further, others have also tried to for you with the same inability to get you to remove the blinders and see what happened
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Are you daft?
I’ve said several times now that I think Zambrano is partially responsible. Again, my entire point here is that Derrek Lee is the one who initiated the altercation between the two men. This is a fact. Why you refuse to attribute any blame to him is beyond me. Perhaps it’s YOU who needs to remove the blinders.
I watched the video quite a number of times.
There is no way Derrek Lee initiated this incident. Period.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
We're clearly seeing two different...
things then. I’m seeing Carlos Zambrano walking away from Derrek Lee. Agree?
I’m then seeing Derrek Lee yelling at Zambrano to “shut the f*ck up?” Agree?
I then see Z turn around and go towards Lee? Agree?
I guess where we disagree is who’s at fault for the players coming to head.
If it'll help
I say so too.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
PARTIALLY?
He’s 99% responsible. You really think that raging bull of a jackass would have just settled down if no one said anything? He was going to scream and tantrum until someone told him to shut up. Which Lee did.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions
If only Koyie Hill had been the leader of the team we all know he is
and nipped this in the bud.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
For crying out loud
Do you blame 9/11 on the people on the 93rd floor?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Much like your argument?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
How is this possible?
I seem to recall Zambrano going into the dugout and yelling his head off, and then Lee (who has watched the whole thing) starts yelling at Z.
From that description, it would seem that Z was at fault.
Was the explosion of the shuttles Challenger and Columbia the fault of the respective crews on board them?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
So, Kanderbear, do you think Lee should also be reprimanded?
I'll go to my grave believing Armando Galarraga tossed the 21st perfect game in MLB history.
That's crazy.
Lee stood up to an infant throwing a temper tantrum and he’s the problem. Ridiculous. That’s the exact kind of thinking that bred the problem in the first place. If mgmt were to react at all that way, they will have more problems like Z and Bradley. It’s exactly how we got here in the first place, that mgmt has coddled Z and given him a pass with PR statements instead of action.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Lee is part of the problem
More in terms of performance, but I’m not really giving Lee a free pass on the situation. Z was going nuclear at no one in particular and Lee, by standing up to him as you say, did escalate the situation to a degree. Lou didn’t really do anything when Zambrano was shouting his way into the dugout, which is pretty sad.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
+1
Exactly what I saw.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll agree with this for sure.
Mgmt and Lou both have not dealt with Z before, and Lou should have stepped up before Lee. At Lou’s age, with how fast these big guys were moving…I’d say Lou should still have gotten there faster but it does take awhile to move that old chassis lol.
And Lee has let the team down this season with his performance. Not so much playing defense, but surely with his hitting.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Lou's got a mouth
He’s still the manager last time I checked. Get his attention and redirect it. A manager does need to stick up for his players in this situation by disciplining another, even it if it is publicly. What if in the worst case scenario, a fist fight broke out in the dugout between Zambrano and Lee? I cringe at the thought of that.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
The worst case scenario would have been for Z to swing at Lou.
Lou would have been hurt a lot and Z would have been dumped along with his salary. I don’t think Lou in the hospital is offset at all by mgmt getting rid of a problem they created.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
My wife said the exact same thing
that if Zambrano slugged Lou then it would have immediately been hasta la vista for Z.
I'll go to my grave believing Armando Galarraga tossed the 21st perfect game in MLB history.
as it should be
With assault and battery charges to follow.
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
I haven't heard
whether Z called out specific players or the team in general. So we don’t know exactly what Carlos said. But that is really beside the point. He needed to be stopped and the manager and coaches were not doing that. Lee stepped in because that was the right thing to do.
If anyone suggests Lee has any blame, I’d suggest they are the one in need of therapy.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Yes
To your first question.
This calls for outrage. He can cool his hot head under a wet towel for 1/2 inning until it is time for him to go out and do his job again.
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
where is Big Daddy when we need him
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Hypothesizing and what ifs further no argument
This team has seen enough of Zambrano yelling and screaming in the dugout. To say that Lee was going after Zambrano there is, to use a phrase. patently absurd. It about time someone on the team told Zambrano to shut up.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
It's time to reassess your stance when you seem to think the problem is not Z
But someone telling him FINALLY stop! enough! You’re acting like a child! The only people here to blame besides the man doing it is mgmt for coddling him and allowing him to get away with this behavior in the past. Z has been used to getting away with idiocy and that is part of the problem.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions
I brought up a similar point yesterday
When Z was dominant, they were able to sweep his antics under the rug and ignore them. Now that’s he’s having a bad year, they’re bringing the hammer down.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
I'll agree that sweeping it under the rug led us here in the first place.
I’d add the only reason they dealt with it is that Z went so far they couldn’t help but deal with it, finally. But that the team is having a bad year…I don’t think that had anything to do with mgmt taking a stand. It was only because they were forced to.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions
It could be
It also could be that this is the last thing they want. I’d be more inclined to ship Zambrano off if he actually threw a punch at Lee, but Zambrano’s really just a hothead.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
I have a hard time believing with as long and as far as they have let Z go
that there’s any way to handle him now. they need to get him traded and off the team. His salary is so big and his performance bad enough it will be difficult to do. I guess you can hope that they could deal with Z and keep him on the team; but they have no track record of doing so at all. It’s a lot to expect at this point.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
That's why I suggested anger management yesterday
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Yeah I think they will try. And hopefully it will help Z for the future.
I just think mgmt allowed his infancy to continue so long that counseling will only help him with another team or in his own life. With Z’s contract they may be forced to try however.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Finally someone agrees with me here
Glad I’m not the only one.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Well, that just makes two of you who are wrong.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Derek Lee told a guy who was freaking out, to shut the fuck up
that isn’t “going after” someone.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions
That is exactly the situation in a nutshell.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions
The tantrum should never had happened.
He’s a grown man for christ sake and he needs to act like one. Enough is enough. Good for Derrek telling him to shut up. Someone needed to.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
This is finally a voice of reason. Worrying about whether Lee was close or not,
was the first to speak to him or not, is all nonsense. Z screamed at him and everyone, acting like a child. Lee told him that was bullshit and the rest ins history.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Sue
Always the voice of reason…
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
Another reason this doesn't represent "fire"
the only time z demonstrates what some of you are calling fire is when something negative happens to him. he’s extremely selfish. do you think he was upset because the cubs chances of winning were compromised or because his line was going to look terrible? this is the same guy who last week admitted to trying to hit a HR while the tying run was on second base. he doesn’t have passion for the team, he has it for himself.
Yeah, that's completely...
false. Z shows “fire” all the time. I know they’re fewer and farther between these days, but how can you not remember the famous Z fist pumps after big strikeouts?
And as an aside, this wouldn’t be anywhere near the issue it is if the team were playing well. Or if Z were pitching well. Everyone would look past it and enjoy him carrying Fontenot around piggyback style, bowing to Kosuke after every win, etc.
i think a big strikeout
classifies as a personal accomplishment, not a team one. he’s a selfish child. thanks for agreeing with me
have to agree with you there
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
Right...
striking out a guy at the plate with the bases loaded does NOTHING for the team. Just another K for the player’s stat books.
Ridiculous.
that's exactly what i said
you seriously think that i meant that a strikeout does nothing for the team?
Ridiculous.
I think I'm missing your point then...
and maybe it’s because you’re doing a poor job of illustrating it.
"it’s not my problem is you don’t know how to make a point."
this is the peak of irony.
Further...
who’s the first one out of the dugout to celebrate a walk-off? Who’s the one always on the edge of the rail watching the games when he’s not starting? Who’s always near the top of the steps with the game on the line?
To suggest that Zambrano doesn’t care about the team is patently absurd.
he cares about the team
but they come second to Zambrano
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
A career's worth of immaturity and tantrums
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
this is not his first time blaming his inability to get outs
on others by jumping in their faces and blasting them
Murton
Theriot
Barret
Umps
for starters.
if he was team first than Zambrano, he would have been more worried about the 3r hr instead
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
When did he get into Murton or Theriot's face?
I just don’t remember this?
if you read this article
it mentions is, i am looking for a better link
If he hadn’t called out or shown up teammates throughout his career, including Matt Murton and Ryan Theriot.
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
He didn't. Ever.
He reacted like the emotional person that he is when Murton and Theriot botched plays. And by that I mean he reacted on the mound. To himself.
Question.
Do you happen to know when this happened?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions
so calling them out was zambrano talking to himself?
you are trying too hard to make Zambrano out to be innocent and the one who has been wronged here
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
I'm not going to say Z is without blame here
The entire situation was one big screw up and I can’t give Lee a free pass here. This was Lou’s job and he did nothing to stop that tirade as it was entering the dugout. Lee shouldn’t have had to escalate like he did, but one has to wonder if the inmates are running the asylum here.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Not talking to himself...
I don’t remember the exact details, but he threw his arms up in disgust or something like that. You know, similar to what Silva did in a couple starts ago when Nady gave up on a ball hit to RF.
I’m not trying to make Z out to be innocent AT ALL. I think he’s a complete idiot at times and is absolutely partially at fault here. I think it’s horseshit that he’s getting all this blame when Derrek Lee is the one who started the freaking thing though. And the reason it is this way is because Lee is the classy quiet ballplayer while Z is the one with the track record.
So Lee is at fault for talking to Z?
Would you have rather he not stood up? That might have ended up worse.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Talking to Z?
You mean yelling at him to shut the f*ck up?
Yes, he’s absolutely at fault for that! Are you kidding me?
So Z is not at fault for going into the dugout and screaming his head off?
I fail to see the logic here, sorry.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
This seems like more blame is placed upon Lee instead of Z.
I’m not trying to make Z out to be innocent AT ALL. I think he’s a complete idiot at times and is absolutely partially at fault here. I think it’s horseshit that he’s getting all this blame when Derrek Lee is the one who started the freaking thing though.
Lee didn’t start this. He stood up for his teammates while Z was in the dugout yelling his head off. Not only that, but Lee started from a distance and Z walked up to him and started yelling in Lee’s face.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Of course he did...
Zambrano was pissed off, very obviously. If someone starts yelling at me to shut the f*ck up when I’m already at a boiling point, I’m going to approach them too. It’s human nature.
And you’re absolutely right, I am placing more blame on Lee. And you know why? Not to sound like a third grader, but… BECAUSE HE STARTED IT!
Wait, weren't you just arguing that Z was at fault?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok, seriously...
I don’t know why this is so hard for you to follow, but I don’t have the patience, or the desire, to continually re-explain things to you.
You don't need to re-explain it,
Because I know what I saw.
The best thing you and I can both do is agree to disagree.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
ok, just to play devils advocate
I’ll blame no ONE individual, it’s the organisation as a whole.
They both acted incorrectly, and Lou sat back and watched like a scared 3rd grader until near the end.
If we need to place blame, then we should start from the top, and work our way down.
We are fans who want to see our team win, and so far, they have disappointed us more than most seasons, and god knows, I’ve been watching them since 81.
Zambrano started it with his tirade
and if Lee didnt know what Zambrano was saying, the cool, calm and collect Lee would not have screamed BULLSHIT live where a camera could catch him. Just because you say Zambrano’s back doesnt mean he was not going off.
Lee did what the team leader and captain should do there
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
say = saw
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
A team leader and captain...
should tell one of his teammates to shut the f*ck up when he’s yelling and walking towards the end of the dugout, away from the rest of the players? A teammate who was obviously incredibly riled up as is it? That’s ridiculous. If anyone, the manager should be the one to do so. If Z were berating a certain player, then sure, go ahead and get your teammate’s back, Lee. But he wasn’t.
I just don’t get how you’re not holding Derrek Lee responsible, AT ALL, for this when he undeniably is the one who started the confrontation with Z.
funny you say that
many say Lou should be the only one to step in, and these same people saying that also say Lou has no control and is too asleep at the helm, which would mean he would not step in. which is it?
Lee did the right thing, as did Trammal. And for the love of god, when Soriano says enough is enough about Zambrano and his crap, doesnt that tell you something you are not understanding?
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
as i said i have searched them
and havent seen them online, but they were part of the post game on CSN
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Well I'd...
be interested in reading them if you, or anyone else, comes across them. Not really looking for a paraphrase though.
You just tried saying that Z was at fault to me.
Your words to me:
I said that Z is at fault in the previous post that you responded to.
Your words here:
I just don’t get how you’re not holding Derrek Lee responsible, AT ALL, for this when he undeniably is the one who started the confrontation with Z.
That’s changing your point so that you can get the last word in.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I haven't changed my point at all...
I’ve been very consistent. Since you just randomly decided to jump into the middle of a conversation here, maybe you should go back to the beginning and start there. I think I’ve been pretty transparent on my opinions on this matter.
"I said that Z is at fault in the previous post that you replied to."
Sounds like you’re blaming Z there.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
This wouldn't have happened if the team were playing well.
Or if Zambrano could pitch worth a damn.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
another good point
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
you're probably right, but
I can easily imagine a situation where the team is playing well collectively and Z is having a poor season and him acting the same way.
I think would have been a huge issue with him charging like an idiot.
And that the team has let him get away with this crap before is definitely part of the problem. Z acts like a 2 year old and mgmt coddles him, hoping he will mature. And no one does when they don’t have to grow up.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Al the last two posts have been amongst your best. Well done.
Seriously though, this team is a hoot to watch. It’s like a “Choose Your Own Adventure” book; you never know what’s around the corner! This team will go down in history as one of epic, comical proportions. And it’s not going to get better until 2012, maybe. Strap in, we’re gonna find out who the true Cubs fans are soon enough—we are simply not going to be good enough to sustain everyday viability with the poor team we are fielding.
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 26, 2010 11:06 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
I see the year 2012 in comments about the Cubs getting back into it.
Why 2012?
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
2012 is when a few older contracts expire, freeing up some cash, and the
players in the farm system and on the team now hit their peak playing years.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 26, 2010 11:17 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Because the end of the world has already been promised for that year
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
Ah, the old fire and passion debate.
This has been an endless one over at WCG, and everytime I think or read about it I want to upchuck my lunch. Acting like a crazy person or a five year-old doesn’t motivate anyone, it just deflates teammates. Ditka has brought an irrational image of what a manager/coach should look and act like.
"Is there any truth to the rumor that the Bears gave up their first-round pick in 2011 for the decals?" - Someone registered as the DailyNorseman at PFT suggesting the Bears gave up picks in order to get Gaines Adams tribute decals. Stay classy Minnesota fans!
It does make somewhat more sense...
… in those other sports, which are more violent, and in which you may have to work yourself up into that sort of frenzy to perform in certain situations.
Not in baseball.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yep
There’s even less room for it in baseball. Fans in football think Lovie Smith should be fired because he maintains his composure in front of the cameras when things aren’t going so well.
"Is there any truth to the rumor that the Bears gave up their first-round pick in 2011 for the decals?" - Someone registered as the DailyNorseman at PFT suggesting the Bears gave up picks in order to get Gaines Adams tribute decals. Stay classy Minnesota fans!
For the first time ever
I was actually embarrassed to be a Cubs fan. I usually represent my team proudly, but yesterday I wanted to as little to do with this team as possible and that is saying a lot because I eat sleep and breathe Cubs baseball. I did like Brenly’s comment about this being a “dead-ass” team. Its true because they’ve been walking around like zombies, but I don’t believe that what Z did was right. There is a right and a wrong way to go about such things and Z was clearly in the wrong. I’ve begun to lose hope for this season, but who knows stranger things have happened. I’ll always been a Cubs fan and continue to keep the faith, but they sure do make it hard to do so when stuff like this takes place and worse yet it happened at the worst possible place.
If it was easy it wouldn't be the Cubs.
by Cubbinstrongsince86 on Jun 26, 2010 11:21 AM CDT reply actions
nope
I was a huge Sosa fan growing up as a kid and I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
If it was easy it wouldn't be the Cubs.
by Cubbinstrongsince86 on Jun 26, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Interesting
Because I was also a huge Sosa fan and that was why I was embarrassed. It felt like a dark cloud was over Cubs fans that weekend…
I came home between work and a concert...
… to change out of my Cubs shirt. First time i can remember doing that, including attending a great deal of away losses against big football rivals in college.
I just didn’t want to hear or talk to anybody about it last night.
Yup, it’s to the point i don’t want to talk about the cubs. Ugly.
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Jun 26, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
none of this happens
If Kevin Millar makes the team out of ST.
by cozmotaylor123 on Jun 26, 2010 11:27 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
could Wood or DeRosa stopped such a problem?
i keed i keed
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
not sure but i heard a
Boom box was smashed last night.
by cozmotaylor123 on Jun 26, 2010 11:31 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I was thinking the same thing
it makes me wonder now that they DFA Tracy what impact would Millar had on this club?
If it was easy it wouldn't be the Cubs.
by Cubbinstrongsince86 on Jun 26, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
absolutely none. No impact whatsoever
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions
umm, this is a joke right?
Unless you think Millar would have taken Zambrano’s spot on the roster. That’s the only way he stops this from happening. That or you think Millar sells drugs.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
i was totally joking
But I do agree Derosa would have been able to control this situation.
by cozmotaylor123 on Jun 26, 2010 3:40 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
and he would have given the entire dugout wine instead of gatorade!
"Shut the f*** up" – Derrek Lee. Well said my man, well said.
by jesus christos on Jun 26, 2010 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions
An appropriate quote from Dirk Hayhurst's Bullpen Gospels
Reading and watching Z’s outburst, and then reading the wide variety of comments on this board in the last 20 hours or so has been an interesting look at human nature and how we perceive things.
I thought you might be interested in what a ballplayer might say. This quote is from The Bullpen Gospels by Dirk Hayhurst and I think it could be directly applied to this ridiculous situation.
(Page 306 (paperback), when DH is talking to “Frenchy” (presumably Wade LeBlanc) after the latter had a bad outing and a subsequent hissy-fit.)
“… You are dumping this problem on everyone around you. This is what brings a team down, especially after a win. Your self pity and negativity will make the boys avoid you, ostracize you. Throwing your glove, throwing a fit in the dugout after giving up runs, marchin around mad hours after the game is over – it’s immature, bro. What, you honestly believe you’re above having struggles? … This is a man;s game. You need to act like one.
He goes on to say…
“I don’t think I’m telling you anything you don’t know, but hey, we all fall short of our mark from time to time. It’s how we handle tat fall that makes us the players we are. It’s not all about accomplishments, but how we soldier through disappointments.”
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
by Ross on Jun 26, 2010 11:36 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
DINGDINGDING!
Winner. And everyone here should read Hayhurst’s book. It’s outstanding.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I just hope it gets the team fired up like it did in 07.
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jun 26, 2010 11:36 AM CDT reply actions
Lord have mercy there are still people who believe that?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Just like last year, everyone is missing the forrest for one angry tree
The outburst is a symptom of what has been another crappy year of underacheivement from a core of players who are much better than they’ve played.
This post was prepared as a service to the BCB community. Neither BCB nor any of its employees makes any warranty, expressed or implied for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of said post. The statements of the author expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect the views of BCB and should not be taken as anything other than an opinion. Above post has no cash value, and is invalid in MA, VA, and Puerto Rico.
Are they that much better?
An argument can be made for the contrary. IMO, they’re window slammed shut after getting swept in the playoffs in ‘08. That offseason was when Hendry should’ve tried to trade off some players who’s stock was at an all-time high. Aram, Lilly, Lee, Theriot, and Harden.
"Is there any truth to the rumor that the Bears gave up their first-round pick in 2011 for the decals?" - Someone registered as the DailyNorseman at PFT suggesting the Bears gave up picks in order to get Gaines Adams tribute decals. Stay classy Minnesota fans!
Yeah, it's pretty easy to play backseat GM when hindsight is on your side
That offseason was when Hendry should’ve tried to trade off some players who’s stock was at an all-time high. Aram, Lilly, Lee, Theriot, and Harden.
That’s laughable. Hendry should have sold off his playoff team that was heavily favored to win their division going into 2009?
But yes, this team is by all accounts, projections, predictions, everything – much better than they’ve played. In half a season, Lee has been worth just .7 wins, Ramirez -1.1, Theriot -.1, and Z just .7 (though his value was hurt not just by mediocre pitching but by mismanagement).
You’re telling me we should have anticipated career-worst years from 4 of our core players? Their career norms should put them at a combine 6 or 7 wins better than they’ve been, which is extremely significant.
This post was prepared as a service to the BCB community. Neither BCB nor any of its employees makes any warranty, expressed or implied for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of said post. The statements of the author expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect the views of BCB and should not be taken as anything other than an opinion. Above post has no cash value, and is invalid in MA, VA, and Puerto Rico.
Not necessarily
This team, in this decade, has continued down the path of patching holes instead finding a long-term solutions to its championship goal. This year’s collapse was inevitable; it was going to happen sooner rather than later. Did I predict it would be this bad? Absolutely not, but I did say to a lot of my friends (not here) that ‘08 was their year to make it happen. When it didn’t, as we all know it wasn’t even close to coming to fruition, I believed the window was closed. Why wouldn’t an aging team be susceptible to a down year(s)? The core of this team is old and past their prime and this was true last year as well. Now, Aram, BigZ, Lee, and others have practically zero trade value. If change wasn’t needed after ‘08, would you agree that after last season the proverbial writing was on the wall? They tried their best to win a title, but when it didn’t happen they proceeded with their same, flawed strategy.
"Is there any truth to the rumor that the Bears gave up their first-round pick in 2011 for the decals?" - Someone registered as the DailyNorseman at PFT suggesting the Bears gave up picks in order to get Gaines Adams tribute decals. Stay classy Minnesota fans!
Bradley vs. Zambrano
Brought up a point about this yesterday. Bradley defenders mentioned Zambrano’s antics, saying he could act however he wanted, but Bradley could not. It’s really a case of “what have you done for us lately?” and less about the behavior. Bradley wasn’t doing well last season and in his only season in a Cubs uniform, he managed to alienate everyone. Yet for years, Zambrano did things that were worse than anything Bradley ever did and Zambrano kept getting a free pass. Why? He was doing well. He may have not been as good as he was in 2006, but 2007-2009 were good years for Zambrano with the exception of the injuries in 2008 and 2009. Thus, the guy kept getting a free pass. Now that Zambrano is having a bad year, management is less willing to tolerate him. If this is showing accountability, they’re a bit late here.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
It's almost as if there's a pattern of mishandling players with attitudes
Sosa, Bradley, Z, etc.
Unlike Al, I’m not going to pretend I have any idea what a clubhouse needs to be a “good” clubhouse or a “bad” clubhouse. But it’s pretty clear from the outside in that certain situations have been allowed to get out of control until it’s way too late to fix them, then they get dumped.
I have no idea if it’s poor management, a lack of leadership in the clubhouse, or front office indifference but it’s definitely a problem at this point.
This post was prepared as a service to the BCB community. Neither BCB nor any of its employees makes any warranty, expressed or implied for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of said post. The statements of the author expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect the views of BCB and should not be taken as anything other than an opinion. Above post has no cash value, and is invalid in MA, VA, and Puerto Rico.
This seems pretty obvious
It’s not the first time Zambrano has had a public dispute with another player, but at least it didn’t come to fists this time. This is where I really think Ricketts could be a big help in changing the mentality of the organization. If you want classy individuals, then by all means enforce that standard equally. Zambrano is more of a hothead that could benefit from some anger management.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Why is he still in Africa?!
He needs to help fix this teams’ implosion!
"Is there any truth to the rumor that the Bears gave up their first-round pick in 2011 for the decals?" - Someone registered as the DailyNorseman at PFT suggesting the Bears gave up picks in order to get Gaines Adams tribute decals. Stay classy Minnesota fans!
do you really think ANYONE is missing the fact that this has been another crappy year?
I mean, all you have to do is look at the standings to know that.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Are they better
I question that the core of players are better than they have played. Regardless, if they don’t turn things positive right away, these players will be off the team via trade, DFA, back to the minors or end of contract. Zambrano is a different scenario where there is a thread of hope that his spitefulness will be seen as lack of performance under his contract allowing the Cubs to get him off the roster, bring-in a player, and do this without having to pay Zambrano. Again, being off the payroll in the different normal ways will eventually happen to the other players who don’t play well enough to compete.
Where do you begin….great comments by many here.
I was shocked Brenly made the ‘deadass’ comment. I think Bob is a great baseball man, but he’s wrong here. Look at organizations that consistently win. Aside from the ‘78 Yankees with talent that more than made up for their contrasting personalities, you do not see this type of behavior. You can’t have it. Kudos to DLee for calling Z’s big dumb ass out and telling him it was ‘bllsh*t’.
SO where do you go from here? Z apologizes, but Hendry seems done with him. The look on his face, he’s rightfully tired of this. I really think somethign will be worked out and Z is gone.
MAKE THE ADJUSTMENT ALREADY. THIS GAME IS ABOUT ADJUSTMENTS.
I went to all three mariners games
and watched a team that doesn’t seem to give a shit. Derek Lee has been one of my favorite players, but he clearly is putting less than one hundred % on the field, I saw it on several plays. Chad tracy only catches balls hit right at him at third, and doesn’t move for anything hit to his right at all. even our well trained japanese machine Fukuedome is jogging out ground balls. I don’t agree with Z’s antics, but someone needs to say something. Closed player meeting were players are called out. Maybe Dempster or Lily leading that meeting I don’t now. I would use a lot stronger explitives than dead ass for this lazy team who clearly doesn’t care
To me, Z is looking more and more like baseball's version of Terrell Owens.
I see the ego, the “me first” approach, that it is about him instead of being around the team.
Has anyone ever wondered why Owens has never stuck around for a long time in one city? Because, after a while, he starts going after the coaches, other players, fans, anyone who he thinks isn’t giving him all their attention.
We have seen a trend toward this from Z, especially more often in the last few years. Yesterday was the first time I ever saw him chew out his own teammates. For Z, I have a question. Was it your teammates who served hittable pitches over the plate? Was it your teammates who gave up a three-run home run? Was it your teammates who made this into an issue about themselves?
I truly believe Z has played his last game as a Cub.
And I might scroll through comments now using my “C” and “X” keys because I don’t want to use my “Z” key anymore.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:06 PM CDT reply actions
Good comparison
But does Z always refer to himself in the third person like Owens?
wccubfan
No, he doesn't.
But I see some of the potential warning signs of him turning into TO. Do I think he will go all the way? No.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Interesting comparison but I wouldn't go that far.
Zambrano is a frustrating player (from my perspective) to root for. But I don’t think this is much different than what has been tolerated from him in the past. I am not condoning it, in fact it was foolish, and if he gives us the best chance that day to win (as an SP) than it was grossly selfish of him to push it like that and be told to piss off for the day by the team. Despite Brenly’s comments, Zambrano’s actions aren’t inspiring. If anything, his teammates are likely tired of it and find his actions frustrating as well.
But I don’t think the team should use this latest incident to trade him. If he’s marketable and brings some solid value in return then go for it, like any other player, but I think all that’s warranted here is apology and a fine. I have no doubt he’ll implode again and his teammates and management can handle it, but I don’t see this incident as anything out of the ordinary from him. I’d rather they let things settle down and see if he can provide some quality starts.
his teammates and management can handle him imploding again?
That’s insane. They’ve proven they can’t handle it, will try to sweep it under the rug or just suspend him when they can’t…what possibly could make you say they can handle it?
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't see players refusing to play or holding back until something is done with Zambrano.
The reality is that they have an annoying/jerk teammate.
Dude
You got that right.
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
It's great to see Leadership discussed
I did a find on this thread and found 20 uses of the word leader or leadership. Leadership has value and it’s not quantifiable. You know might not know good leadership when you see, but you definitely can see bad leadership (Zambrano) when it’s on display.
As for Brenly initial comment about fire, I think it was just that – an initial comment after play was over. I doubt he realized the extent of the tirade or who it was directed at.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
And also, to go with my above point,
This is not so much about the anger Z showed. It is how one channels that anger that is more important.
If the anger is channeled in a way that benefits the team, such as swinging the bat harder or diving at a hard-hit ball, that is great. However, when that anger turns into someone chewing out those around you, that is not good.
Z seems unable to channel his emotions in a way that is beneficial to the team. Until he learns the right way to do this, he will not be a true team player.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:12 PM CDT reply actions
It's too late. You allowed this to go too far. Only thing to do here is deal with it and learn from it.
And handle volatile players better the next time.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly.
By never coming down on Z, management sent him the message that antics like this were okay and he could keep doing them.
Too bad they didn’t come down on him the first time they saw a problem from him. Cincinnati in 2003, was it?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I think so. I know I can't remember a time he has ever been dealt with in a way
that would prevent him from continuing to do so. No limits and you learn acting like a child is how you deal with frustration.
Doesn’t this Z situation remind you of Nanny 911?
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
It reminds me more of Terrell Owens screaming at Donovan McNabb while following him around the sideline.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
That's a really poor...
comparison. Z didn’t follow Lee around. It was the complete opposite, in fact, as Z was walking away from Lee. And everyone else.
How did I know you would come into this?
Z is very similar to Terrell Owens. It doesn’t really matter who the supporting cast is or what roles they play.
And yet you think Lee is at fault. The crew of the Space Shuttle Challenger would like to have a word with you.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Because I...
notice stupid comparisons? I don’t know.
I agree that Z is similar to TO. It’s fair to compare the players, for sure. But to compare the situations you referenced just quite simply doesn’t make any sense.
Does this help make my stance clear?
Z is very similar to Terrell Owens. It doesn’t really matter who the supporting cast is or what roles they play.
That’s the point I was trying to make.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
And what baseball,
And certainly the Cubs, need, is someone who can take a player like that and find a better way to deal with this.
I think the Cubs are partially responsible for this situation by not clamping down on Z early enough (when the first problem signs became apparent).
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with that as well...
there’s certainly plenty of blame to go around. Which brings me full circle to my overall point — simply that Derrek Lee deserves some blame too.
Very true.
I know you and I have gone back and forth on this, but in your words: “There’s certainly plenty of blame to go around.”
That is undeniable fact.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions
And you could probably pin the blame on a few more people.
But the way this plays out is more of how the Cubs see it as opposed to us.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions
You're not really worried about the comparison. It's close enough.
You just saw an opportunity to pick at a statement with someone you have a deeper disagreement with. come on.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions
He and I just agreed above,
Which has helped put out the fire right here. Please don’t add fuel to it.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I said that before you put out your fire vermont. I wasn't trying to add to anything.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I realized that right after I posted that comment.
The fire went out, and then I replied to you.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Preparing to hike to the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire on Saturday, July 10. Preparation hike up Mount Mansfield in Vermont planned for June 26....
State high point count: 2/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jun 26, 2010 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah that's certainly true and something I've said before here for sure.
These guys though are just infants with grown up bodies. You allow the behavior and reward them with big contracts, give PR statements instead of limits, and you teach them to continue acting like this. They had better learn because society’s coddling and admiration of athletes today has bred a whole generation of them. They will sign more players like this and have got to know how to deal with them. Perhaps Ricketts should contact Goodell …someone who is used to handling players that act up.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions
And not that Z would ever get the benefit of the doubt around here
But calling out 2 players for a lack of effort is one thing, but given how bad and lifeless those 2 players have been this year, maybe Brenly’s right and Z is onto something.
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About Brenly.....
He made it clear on the air that he did not like what happened and would never wish for that to happen, he just simply stated things like this have turned teams around in the past. I actually think he said that that behavior should not have any place in baseball
How would Z's outburst have been perceived,
if he didn’t give up the 3 run HR? I think Brenly’s analysis would be a lot more credible and Z would be given at least a few kudo’s for trying to spark the team.
There is a huge diifference between the Milton Bradley examples, and playing baseball with fire and passion. Yes Al, other sports are different and require a different game demeanor, however I strongly disagree with any conclusion that says fire and passion are not dersired traits in a baseball player. Tell that to Ron Santo, as he was clicking his heels in 69. Tell that to Sarge in 84, tell that to Kerry Wood in 03. Yes, those players also lead on the field as well as off (exactly were Z isn’t), but I love the fire in those guys and would take it a heartbeat over any of this “deadass” lot.
"The Cubs are due in sixty-two." - #14
I'm excited to hear TJ weigh in on this!!!
Boy, what and exciting thing that’ll be!!!!!
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
lol
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Your statement...
accomplishes anything except embarrassment and a mess for the manager and general manager to clean up
is the key Al. I know you don’t agree with BB. I do though and perhaps this is exactly the event the Cubs need.
If you listened carefully to BB, he’s not wishing this but hoping it lights a fire. I hope they can get something for him & perhaps save even a small percentage of money at the same time.
As for your hockey comparison, no teammates are closer than hockey teammates (not even close), that goes across all levels up from HS varsity to the big show. BTW, the ‘Hawks used to have these kind of players, as recently as a couple years ago; they’re ALL gone now. It’s what Savvy referred o in his “commit to the Indian” statement a couple seasons ago.
Number of games a season doesn’t matter that much & preparation in hockey is needed more than any other sport, thus having the players together more than other sports. Hockey players are also a different breed than in other sports. The arrogance & pompous behaviour is far less evident on a per player basis than the other 3 big sports.
Don’t compare hockey to baseball. They’re totally different sports with each many unique challenges. The Cubs appear to have a clubhouse culture issue now. Wasn’t it just a couple weeks ago a report came out about certain players shutting themselves off from other players. Perhaps this is a result of said behaviuor boiling over. The ’Hawks had that 3-4 seasons ago & shortly afterwards, those players were jettisoned.
Just win the next game...!
I wasn't "comparing" hockey to baseball.
In fact, I was saying how different the sports are.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
pointing out differences is doing a comparison
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't get the "it's exactly what the Cubs need" comments
that was after the first inning. the team played like crap for the entire rest of the game! If it had woken them up, might they not have looked like a better team at SOME POINT in the game?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions
a bench clearing brawl might have
Worked to bring them together and rally the troops. Not 1 of 25 acting a fool.
by cozmotaylor123 on Jun 26, 2010 3:44 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
The only reason that didn't happen
was because our team was outnumbered 25-24.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
I was going to say Silva's big enough to count for two...
…but then I remembered that the Sox have Bobby Jenks, which more than offsets any excess Silva…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Imagine
the teams ending the series 3-3 and deciding the cup with those guys having a sumo match.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
That would almost be more fun than watching these games.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Exactly what they need comment
was to reference Al’s 2nd point from his initial post: Something the manager and general manager has to clean up. The clean up would include – but is not limited to – getting rid of Z and his antics.
If this were last season and it was MB that Z unloaded on, fine. But to rip on D-Lee (perhaps THE Cubs player that if he had a one-word definition of his personality, it would be CLASSY) it just shows how selfish Z truly is.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Jun 27, 2010 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
those thinking Zambrano has not been talked to before
"It becomes a bit of a tired act," Hendry said. "People think that he hasn’t been spoken to by Lou and his staff or the general manager before. Things are sometimes construed as being let go or let slide by — that’s certainly not true. You have every right to say it like that, that it’s a recurring situation. And every time it recurs, it is a little bit more disappointing."
and I blame many, but Zambrano is the heart of the problem who started this noe (again). I see no reason why Lee would say BULLSHIT unless Zambrano was out of line with his ranting and raving, blaming others and so on.
here is the video FWIW
Unofficial Self Appointed President of the Player Formerly Known as Castro Blocker Fan Club
Bleed Castro Blue
Well if he has been talked to, mgmt's actions have not dealt with it and really,
that’s the only thing that matters to a child. It’s like the kid you see throwing a temper tantrum in a grocery store…and the parent saying stop….stop….stop…stop…stop…stop…you’re really going to get it, thats completely wrong…stop….stop…stop…stop. Your words mean nothing, your actions are teaching the opposite.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions
I just watched the video again.
Anyone who says D-Lee started the confrontation is Just. Plain. Wrong.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Jun 26, 2010 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Al, you need to be careful what words you use
“confrontation” usually implies a 2nd party. Therefore if you’re talking about who started the confrontation specifically between Z and Lee, a strong case could be made that it was indeed Lee.
Now if you want to take a more macro view and ask who started the whole brou-ha-ha in the dugout, well, clearly that was Z since he’s the one that came storming into the dugout foaming at the mouth.
I think this is why there’s been much gnashing of the teeth over this whole incident as to “who started it”. All parties here haven’t been able to agree on what “it” is.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
If Zambrano's rant was not out of line, I don't want know what is.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Jun 26, 2010 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions
I've thought about thisfor awhile..
All of us fans, in addition the players, are disgusted with the performance of this team so far. Bob Brenly was right this has been a “dead ass” team. I for one like to see the so called “fire and passion.” I’ve been wanting to see some sort of well placed “fire and passion” to wake this team up… However this was not “fire and passion.”
I would except/applaud this outburst if Zambrano was calling out a player who wasn’t hustling on a play, or hanging his head low, or an over all lack of team effort or intensity This was not any of those cases. Zambrano was pissed off, and probably has been for some time, and acted like a complete child. A $90mil “Ace” with the years he has had with this team, he should have known better. He is held to a higher standard than other players and SHOULD NEVER call out other players on the team (especially another Team Leader). We have turned the cheek to often with his behavior, and its time to rid of this cancer.
Just listened to the White Sox version of Z's tirade
so weird hearing Steve Stone and I REALLY can’t stand the “he gone”
I was getting far more annoyed with Hawk calling Peavy "the Jakemeister"
you don’t have to give everyone a goddamn nickname
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Jun 26, 2010 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions
So bad it even hurts to read that
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Jun 26, 2010 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I heard Bob Brenly during the broadcast yesterday
talking about showing passion and fire and wondered if he was simply looking for a positive spin on the whole thing—not so much that he agreed with the way Z was behaving.
He didn't say he condoned it, he said he "wasn't sure that was the way to go about it"
but he liked seeing fire on the team. I wouldn’t have had a problem with his words at all if he had clarified it to say it was not acceptable to do that ever but he liked seeing fire in a different way. I’ll give BB a pass cause he’s saying everything live and it’s hard to state everything without making a mistake in there. I’d have more interest in hearing him talk about it on Sunday when he’s had time to ruminate about it and watch it again. He might have been looking to spin it positively, I’m not sure, but by now he’s had time to organize his thoughts and we should hear what he really thinks now.
"The ones who want to achieve and win championships motivate themselves." - Da Coach
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 26, 2010 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Two things for Al:
1. Trading Z at this time brings very poor return. My guess is the player will apologize (again) and maybe get professional help as a condition of return.
2. It was very cool that Al got the boss, and the President of the Club to sit down for an interview at the beginning of the season – but how about getting them when things are not going so well?
Not understandably, Tom, and Kenny (as well as Hendry) have have their collective heads buried in the sand, as we have heard nothing (other than Hendry on Z). How about management standing up and acknowledging failure, and rolling back outrageous prices that they absurdly raised – at Kenny’s suggestion no doubt.
How about a “State of the State” by management as the season for the club looks like a fork has been stuck in the team and twisted?
My guess is the player will apologize (again) and maybe get professional help as a condition of return.
Not this time. The line has been crossed.
I am definitely going to try to get another sit-down chat with management sometime around the All-Star break. If I can, obviously, you’ll see the result here.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If it is, I'm sure somehow
it’s our fault for putting too much pressure on these guys.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
Yes, our fault
For putting too much pressure on the front office and forcing them to sign contracts that none of us had input on. Then pressure on the players. And finally, pressure on the beer vendors at Wrigley. I am ashamed of my behavior and plan to say a daily affirmation to correct my evil ways.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Jun 26, 2010 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Piss poor display from a professional.
I have always loved Z’s desire to play/win at the game of baseball but this was just ridiculous. I understand that Z was the reason for him looking like crap and D.Lee just defended himself and was more than likely sick of the Z circus.
I guess it wouldn’t have been so bad having a team leader like Dlee yelling at Z if he was hitting over .240, having more than 10 home runs and only 33 RBIs at a position that demands offensive production. Oh and not having committed 4 errors, which is pretty mediocre at this point for a gold glover.
I am sick of this team’s play and bullshit.
"I don't know what the big deal about Crackerjack is"
by theGraceyslumpbuster on Jun 26, 2010 3:40 PM CDT reply actions
Leadership again
Why is it that Lee is called the team leader? Why not Ramirez? Or Soriano? Could Theriot be the guy? Byrd has good numbers, why not him?
A leader is someone very personal to each of us. But most of us have different opinions of whom we’d follow. If Lee is a leader, it would seem neither Bradley nor Zambrano were willing to follow him. Sosa called himself the team leader but he abandoned his team in the end.
My point is that just because someone respects a player like Lee, that doesn’t necessarily translate into leadership for others. As outsiders, and we all are in spite of our claims at sources inside the clubhouse, none of us knows if there is anyone at all leading this merry band of underperformers.
In the end, if the Cubs do have a leader, he certainly hasn’t done a very good job the past two years.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

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