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Book Review: "The 300 Club"

I used to call myself "the milestone jinx".

Why? Because for years I kept missing major baseball milestones by one. The first one was Ernie Banks' 499th career HR on May 9, 1970. Had the actual home run Ernie hit in Montreal on June 30, 1969 been correctly ruled a home run instead of having the umpire believe Expos OF Rusty Staub, who said on a rainy, murky night that the ball had gone under the fence and given Ernie a double, the May 9, 1970 homer would have been Ernie's 500th, in front of a nearly packed house on a sunny Saturday. Instead he hit it in front of about 5,000 people on a cold and gloomy Tuesday afternoon.

Then I was in St. Louis to see the Cubs one day before Lou Brock got his 3000th hit off Dennis Lamp.

And I was in Milwaukee on September 8, 1992, specifically hoping to see Robin Yount's 3000th hit. He needed two. He got one and walked in the bottom of the eighth, his last at-bat of the day. The crowd booed.

So on September 16, 1993, when I was traveling and changing planes in Minneapolis, I could have switched my flight back to Chicago and gone to try to see Dave Winfield get his 3000th hit. But he needed two. "No way", I thought, remembering the previous year. So I stayed on my original flight and didn't go to the game. Well, he got it -- in the ninth inning, and scored the tying run.

I was happy to not see Roger Clemens get his 300th win, because it meant the Cubs beat him at Wrigley Field in one of the most memorable games of the 2003 season.

I had planned for a couple months to go to San Francisco in 2004 to see the Cubs play... and that's when I finally got one, Greg Maddux's 300th win against the Giants on August 7, 2004, after witnessing him leaving his previous start at Wrigley six days earlier trailing 2-1; the Cubs rallied to win, but the victory went to Kent Mercker. Incidentally, the first Cub to relieve Maddux in that game was Ryan Dempster; that was Dempster's first appearance in a Cub uniform.

Since then, I have witnessed one more -- Tom Glavine's 300th win against the Cubs on August 5, 2007, a game I'd rather the Cubs had won, and also notable for the serious hamstring injury Alfonso Soriano suffered running the bases. It wasn't until Soriano came back three weeks later that the Cubs made their run to the 2007 NL Central title.

This is a rather long way of introducing Dan Schlossberg's new book, "The 300 Club", the story of all of the 300-game winners, which also asks the question, "Will there be any more?"

Star-divide

Schlossberg profiles each of the 300-game winners and managed to contact personally all of the living ones; there are in-depth interviews with all of the latter. If you don't think that the pressure of reaching a milestone like this affects a veteran major league pitcher, consider these quotes from Greg Maddux:

Greg Maddux remembered the burden of #300 and what it did to his wife Kathy, who was in charge of ticket arrangements and travel for a myriad of family and friends. "I didn't want it to drag on," Maddux remembered, who got #300 while pitching for the Cubs in San Francisco on August 7, 2004. He got it on his second try. "I had put my wife through another five days of hotel arrangements, tickets and 15 calls from everybody who wanted to come. That's the kind of inconvenience it puts on your family when you go through something like that. I know it's a big deal and I was thrilled to accomplish it but it puts a lot of added burdens on the people around you."

And from Tom Seaver:

Tom Seaver won #300 at Yankee Stadium while pitching for the White Sox on August 4, 1985, beating the Yanks 4-1 on a 6-hitter. Seaver pitched for the Sox in 1984-85 and part of 1986. He won #300 on Phil Rizzuto Day at Yankee Stadium. "It meant more to me than I was willing to admit. It was a constant emotional drain. The last time I'd felt like that when when I had a perfect game going against the Cubs in 1969. It was nice to win my 300th game in New York, in front of some fairly sophisticated fans." He was not surprised to see so many in the stands that day rooting for the Sox, and not the Yankees. "I wasn't totally surprised about that. Mets fans could buy tickets, too. Some people are Mets fans, some people are Yankees fans, and some people are baseball fans. I had made my name in New York so people came out to see me pitch there."

The book's author doesn't think there will be any more 300-game winners:

"I know I said nobody will get to the 300 win level again...and I still feel that way. But if ANYBODY can get there, it would be Roy Halladay. He pitches well into the 8th and 9th innings of games, which gives him a chance to pick up extra wins. He also can throw up to 130 pitches a game, so he has endurance. I know he is 33, and has 155 wins, but he is a horse and I think he can pitch to age 41. If he does that he has an outside chance, especially if he stays with a team that wins games like the Phillies. But again, it is an outside chance. I just think we've seen the last of 300 game winners.

"Think about it this way: you gotta win 15 games a year for 20 years or 20 wins a year for 15 years. With today's salaries, there's not a whole lot of guys who will want to do what it takes to hang around that length of time. They have all the money they need at an earlier age and are set up for life."

This is exactly what was said in the early 1970's. At the time, only two pitchers -- Warren Spahn in 1961 and Early Wynn in 1963, and Wynn just barely -- had reached the 300 level since Lefty Grove in 1941. Around that time, Bill James wrote an article predicting there would be a "flood" of 300-game winners coming up -- and that's exactly what happened. Ten pitchers have been added to the 300-win club since then.

James recently changed his tune; Tom Tango quotes James in this link:

It recently occurred to me, though, that one can track this change in a different and perhaps better way by looking at the data for just one season. In 1884, seven major league pitchers won a total of 329 games—59 by Old Hoss Radbourn, 52 by Guy Hecker, 48 by Charlie Buffinton, 46 by Pud Galvin, 43 by Billy Taylor, 41 by Charlie Sweeney, and 40 by either Jim McCormick or Bill Sweeney. Eight pitchers won 40 or more games. If seven pitchers can win 300 games in a season, then, how long would it take a top-flight pitcher to win 300 games? Seven years. You just have to remain one of those top seven pitchers for seven years. ...

We started the decade back at 16, then stabilized at 18 (18, 18, 18), and then this year [2009] it took 19 pitchers to add together to get a total of 300 wins. 19 is a high number. 19 is the highest number ever, except for the strike-shortened seasons and the years 1876-1878. 19 is close to 21, and at 21, 300 game winners are gone. ...

Pitchers don’t have to come out of the game at the 100-pitch mark; it’s just a choice that managers make. If the commissioner succeeds in speeding up the games, one result of that should be more complete games, which would drive this number down, thus making it easier to win 300 games. All I will really say is that it is still possible to win 300 games now. Ten years from now, if that number is 21, 22, 22, 22. . ..it’s over.

It's hard to say. James may very well be correct, given the way pitchers are used these days. I don't believe that it's a financial issue, as Schlossberg says; look at Jamie Moyer, who does want to pitch till he's 50 and appears this year to be pitching at a competitive level. If Moyer winds up this year with 270 wins -- not an unrealistic goal -- he could do it. Roy Halladay, mentioned above, should end this season at age 33 with about 165 wins. He'd have to pitch into his early 40's; so would Andy Pettitte. Maybe they wouldn't need the money -- but competitive professional athletes, when seeking a goal, would probably do it for the accomplishment, as long as they feel they can still pitch and teams would still want them.

The pitcher not mentioned by Schlossberg who has a real shot at 300 is CC Sabathia. Sabathia won't turn 30 until next month and should end this season with over 150 wins (he's currently at 141). As long as he can stay healthy and has a desire to pitch, he's got a real shot at it.

A longer shot is Carlos Zambrano, who just turned 29. Returning to the rotation tonight with 106 career wins, if Z can return to the form which had him not miss a start from 2003-2007 and pitch as he is capable of pitching, maybe that 300th win could await him 12-13 years from now.

The book is informative and food for thought, although there were some annoying typos and the 300th win boxscore under the Don Sutton chapter was Warren Spahn's 300th win. This one's definitely worth your time. Full disclosure: the publisher sent me a review copy of this book.

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Couple of things ...

Did the author mention anything about starters getting fewer starts these days? If there’s a statistic that quantifies that it would be interesting, and would obviously effect the ability of starters to pile up wins.

Also, maybe Z has his fire back, or some of it, but his statements about wanting to retire make one wonder if he isn’t as willing to go through what it takes to tough it through a long career.

One of Lee Elia's 15%

by waiting4cubs on Jun 4, 2010 8:20 AM CDT reply actions  

Yes, hearing him talk about retirement awhile ago made me think Al was just

speculating nicely with a nice thought. But not a realistic one.

"Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two."

by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 4, 2010 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

Less starts

Good point. The days of getting 40 starts are long over. The most Halladay ever got is 36.

Of course, Johnson and Clemens and Maddux won 300 without pitching in 4-man rotations. The most starts any of those three got in a season was 37 for Maddux. It’s the CGs that stand out. All three accumulated 100 CGs or more. Halladay is the only current pitcher with even an outside chance of reaching 100 CGs, and as we all know, the more CGs you get, the more decisions (wins) you can gather.

"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry

by danimal15 on Jun 4, 2010 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Clemens

Yes, the win against the Yankess was memorable, especially for Hee-Seop Choi’s being carted off in an ambulance. That was back in the days when Dusty would let Kerry Wood throw 120 pitches!

by raisin1 on Jun 4, 2010 8:25 AM CDT reply actions  

One of my most memorable Cubs games,

we came in town just to see the Cubs and Yankess. What a buzz that day and Wood pitched his butt off. Seeing Cubs fans wearing t-shirts that said “Yank This” was classic. The ambulance on the field was not something I had seen in person either.

This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).

by mrcubsfan on Jun 4, 2010 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

That was one of the most memorable Cub games ever.

To my knowledge, that is the ONLY time an ambulance has ever driven onto the field at Wrigley.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Al remember you MISSED Maddux's 3000th strikeout?

Game with a LONG rain delay and most people thought it would not start. I believe you had to go to work. Cubs lost but I was glad to be at both #300 and #3000. Using my airline miles to fly first to Chicago and then to San Francisco for the 300th win was one the best things I ever did.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Jun 4, 2010 8:32 AM CDT reply actions  

Yes, that's right.

The game didn’t start until almost 9:30 and I had to go to work. It was raining so hard that I didn’t think they’d play.

Should have just stayed for the 3000th K and left. IIRC, the game went into extra innings and didn’t end until after 1 am.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

Luckily I was on vacation at the time

I did not even go to the park till about 9 and I may have been the first person to bring
take out Thai food in for a late dinner.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Jun 4, 2010 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think both Halladay and Sabathia will do it

I don’t think Zambrano will. The man just does not take care of his body enough to have that kind of career.

Moyer should be the first 300-game winner not to make the Hall of Fame

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Jun 4, 2010 9:13 AM CDT reply actions  

If Moyer wins 300, he's in.

If for nothing else, the longevity of his career and the fact that he’d be pitching effectively at age 50.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, I know he will

He shouldn’t.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Jun 4, 2010 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Because I don't believe longevity is the reason to put someone in the Hall

I believe that is a freakish thing.

He’s never led either league in any positive category other than putouts by a pitcher. He’s lead the league in HR allowed and will likely finish as the all-time leader in that category. He will creep closer to being a .500 pitcher the longer he plays.

His career ERA is 4.22. He’s made ONE All-Star team in 24 seasons and never finished higher than 4th in the Cy Young voting.

He will, because Niekro and Perry did, but they shouldn’t have either.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Jun 4, 2010 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree that Moyer's career numbers are nothing special...

… and the only qualification he’d have is the 300 wins.

Nevertheless, pitching effectively in the major leagues at his age, or if he makes it to 50, that’s something no one else has done.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

And about being the all-time leader in HR given up...

… look at the top 10 list. Six Hall of Famers, one more who will be (Randy Johnson) and one more who should be (Bert Blyleven). As the old saying goes, “you have to be good to do that”.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's a philosophical difference for me

I would rather have 8-10 years of brilliance than 20 years of consistency.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Jun 4, 2010 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

A reasonable position.

However, I think you can see how teams could use the 20 years of consistency, too.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Absolutely

But just because a team could use you doesn’t mean you belong in the Hall.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Jun 4, 2010 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thenm he should not be in the HOF

being okay for a long time is not Hall-worthy

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Jun 4, 2010 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Moyer

Should not be in the HOF even if he wins 300 games. It’s like Fred McGriff and 500 homers. Even if he reached 500, he still didn’t qualify (to me) as a HOFer.

Moyer has been mediocre to slightly good for 20 years. He’s like a hitter with a lifetime average of .260 who manages to stay around long enough to accumulate 3,000 hits (unlikely to ever happen, but Moyer is quite the exception, too). Would a guy with a .260 lifetime average, 3,000 hits, and say, 150 homers, be a HOFer? I’d aruge no. Especially if he never won MVP. Maybe if he was a Brooks Robinson type and exemplified defensive performance at his position for a decade or more. But I can’t think of any equivalent of that for Moyer.

"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry

by danimal15 on Jun 4, 2010 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

To me, it's the equivalent

of a guy hitting .333 by going 1 for 3 with a single and walk his entire career.

Technically great, but meh.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Jun 4, 2010 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

If a guy did that he would have a .500 OBA...

… and probably would have scored a ton of runs. There’s value to that.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Meh

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Jun 4, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

"Meh"?

No one in the history of baseball has had a career .500 OBA. The all-time leader is Ted Williams at .482.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

And no one in history has as many hits as Pete Rose

and he had to basically crawl on his hands and knees to get to it.

I don’t care for compilers.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Jun 4, 2010 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Rose

He did win three NL batting titles and 1 MVP. After 1981 when he broke Stan Musial’s NL record for hits, he wasn’t much of a player. As far as I’m concerned, he might as well have retired five years before he actually did as a player.

Certainly after 1983 when the Phillies didn’t want him anymore, he could have retired. Rose desperately wanted that all-time hits record.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jun 4, 2010 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Disagree

Rose certainly wasn’t at his peak level after 1982 (his last year of 162 games played and 600 or more ABs), but there’s no arguing that he played very well for the Phillies in the 1983 postseason and for the Reds in 1984 and part of 1985 upon returning, and he broke the record in 1985. By the end of 1985, he was definitely dragging, and he wasn’t good at all in 1986, his last year. But I don’t think you can argue that he should have retired after 1981.

"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry

by danimal15 on Jun 4, 2010 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Going for the Record

If the hits record hadn’t been in reach, I believe Rose would’ve retired after 1983. He declined in 1982 and 1983. The Phils did make the Series in 1983, his last year there. He could have gone out being on a pennant winning team. Rose never looked right in an Expos uniform.

Rose limped his way to the record not being the real Pete Rose at the end.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jun 4, 2010 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rose

I realize it’s no point arguing – we both have our opinions (and I agree an Expos uniform wasn’t right for him and he may have been stretching his career out a bit too long for the record).

But he really hit well for the Reds in late 1984, and he was effective in 1985 as well, with a .300 average as late as mid-June and an average in the .280s for much of the year before tailing off a bit at the end.

He sucked in 1986, but he did have a final 5 for 5 day about 2 weeks before he finally gave it up for good.

Funny thing is, he never formally announced his retirement as a player. He just had a last strikeout and then never put himself out there again.

"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry

by danimal15 on Jun 4, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Believe That Was August

IIRC, he struck out against Gossage. I wish Rose had some sort of retirement ceremony whether that had been in 1981 or 1983 in Philly or 1985 or 1986 in Cincy.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jun 4, 2010 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Similar to Tommy John

I give Moyer and John credit for having good and lengthy MLB careers, but i don’t think either one belongs in the Hall of Fame. They both belong in the Beyond the Box Score Ray Lankford Wing of the Hall of Fame. Neither one of the pitchers was ever dominating. Sure, they were good but never dominating. I believe John got a lot of his wins because he was with good Dodgers, Yankees, and Angels teams. Moyer ended up pitching for good Mariners and Phillies teams.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jun 4, 2010 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tommy John belongs in the HoF ...

… for his long successful career AND for being a pioneer in the surgery now named after him. That’s the very definition of “fame”.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Have to Draw the Line Somewhere

I’d let Blyleven in and keep John out. How famous a player is doesn’t matter too much to me. Steve Garvey was more famous than Fergie Jenkins because of Garvey’s being in five (wish like hell it had only been four) World Series and spending most of his career in Los Angeles. In my admittedly biased opinion, Garvey doesn’t belong in the Hall. Fergie’s deservedly there.

I believe the difference between Blyleven and John is the strikeouts, shutouts, and world championships Bert had. Had John won a Cy Young or pitched for a world championship team, I’d certainly give his candidacy more consideration. I’d draw the line between Blyleven and John for the Hall.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jun 4, 2010 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

How famous a player is doesn’t matter too much to me.

It is, after all, the Hall of FAME. So I think “fame” should matter, to some degree.

John pitched in five postseasons and was on the wrong team for all three of the NY/LA World Series in the 70’s and 80’s. However, he had good postseason numbers.

He should be in.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

John also finished second in Cy Young voting twice.

Close enough for ’ya?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

John

I’ll give you John, Al, if you’ll give me Blyleven. Had he played on more decent teams, he’d have been a shoo-in for 300 wins.

"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry

by danimal15 on Jun 4, 2010 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've been an advocate for Blyleven for a long time.

He should have been in years ago.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Still Have to Say No

No Cy Youngs
No 3000 Strikeouts
No 300 Wins (in an era with Seaver, Carlton, Ryan, Perry, Niekro, and Sutton)

No World Championships
No ERA Titles

I believe he’s the best starting pitcher that’s eligible that I would NOT let into the Hall. He had a good and long career, but not quite good enough for the Hall.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jun 4, 2010 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Assume

you’re talking about John, not Blyleven, as Blyleven has way over 3,000 strikeouts.

I agree with you about John. A nice career, but not HOF.

"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry

by danimal15 on Jun 4, 2010 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

So let's see.

No Cy Youngs, but second in voting twice.

No 300 wins, but 288. Pretty damn close.

No World Championships, but played in five postseasons

No ERA titles, but in the top five six times

And, a pioneer in a now-common surgery named after him.

He should be in.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

you were being serious???

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Jun 5, 2010 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

forgot your sarcasm font

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Jun 5, 2010 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Damn, that's twice this week I agreed with you. Damn.

This does not make me happy.

"Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two."

by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 4, 2010 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Halladay perhaps but not Sabathia

I just don’t see someone of his girth able to have a largely injury free, ace career for the next
10-15 years.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Jun 4, 2010 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Right, that's why I said IF Sabathia can stay healthy.

So far, he has.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Halladay has a good chance. He just turned 33. If he averages 15 wins a year for 8 years, he’ll be close at age 41.

"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry

by danimal15 on Jun 4, 2010 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

The highpriced players

As a read your article I was going to respond to the book author’s comment that the high salaries would impact longevity but I saw you also commented. I agree with you. Name one player who quit his career early because he was set in his career? There aren’t many. Now name recent players that probably should have taken their money and retired a year or two earlier…Tom Glavine, Ken Griffey come to mind very quickly. John Smoltz would still be pitching if someone offered him a starting spot.

Ballplayers want to play regardless of their money. The changing game has more impact on 300 game winners than player’s salary.

by rlpete on Jun 4, 2010 9:39 AM CDT reply actions  

I agree...

I don’t think money is the only driver of longevity. These are competitors, and playing the game is most/all they’ve ever known. Many of them need the competition and the baseball life. I think that’s what keeps a lot of them in the game well past the point of effectiveness.

I agree that the bigger issues are the 5-man rotations and pitch counts. I am not as convinced that pitch counts are as unnecessary as James suggests. The lowering of the mound and the vastly increased strength of the hitters (through weight training, diet, and other means) causes pitchers to throw sharper breaking balls, which adds more strain on today’s pitchers than the pitchers of 30 years ago. They could probably throw more pitches than they do, but I don’t think they can throw as many as pitchers in the old days.

by SouthernCub on Jun 4, 2010 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

A new pitcher's era?

A point not raised in favor of more future 300 game winners is that while it is too early to tell, we could be heading into a new pitcher’s era. The game always changes. We should have 3 perfect games and 1 no hitter already and the season isn’t half over. Ubaldo Jimenez has Bob Gibson-like stats so far this year. Hitting is definitely down for whatever reasons you want to mention. With a decrease in hitting, starting pitchers will stay in games longer and get more wins.

by rlpete on Jun 4, 2010 9:42 AM CDT reply actions  

on the other hand

starters start fewer games due to the 5 man rotations everyone employs and starters rarely go beyond the 7th inning anymore either. 300 game winners may not go the way of the dodo bird, but they will become increasingly rare.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Jun 4, 2010 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

There will be more 300-game winners...

After each new entrant in the 300-win club, the question keeps getting asked… and we keep getting a new entrant. Andy Pettitte has a shot if he decides to keep pitching. Moyer has a very remote shot. Halladay has a shot. Then, there are a bunch of young guys who could in 12-15 years be in the neighborhood (Lincecum, Hernandez, etc).

Because it takes so long for a 300-game winner to complete the task, there’s just so much time for things to change. As rlpete noted, it’s possible that a new era of pitching dominance could emerge. Or a handful of guys could really like pitching and could pitch 18-20 years and get there.

by SouthernCub on Jun 4, 2010 10:20 AM CDT reply actions  

A couple of current examples off the top of my head.

Felix Hernandez is 24. By the end of this year he could have 75 wins — that could easily give him 150 by the time he turns 30.

Tim Lincecum will be 26 in a couple weeks. By the end of this year he could have 55-60 wins, possibly 120 by the time he turns 30.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

True

But young pitchers today don’t seem to have the stamina of guys from the previous generations. There seem to be a lot more injuries and careers that slowly spiral down rather than continuing at a high level. I don’t have statistical backing on this – it’s just an impression. But look at Pedro Martinez, for one. He was as dominant as anyone a few years ago, but in his mid-30s he was basically done. When Nolan Ryan was in his mid-30s, he had more than 10 years of productive pitching ahead.

Now I recognize guys like Ryan and Randy Johnson are always going to be the exception. On the other hand, being a 300-game winner is being an exception, so you need guys like Ryan and Johnson to have 300-game winners. I don’t think pitchers today, with the possible exception of Halladay, have the ability.

Maybe it’s money, as the book suggests. Mark Buehrle has been mentioned as a possible 300-game guy, but recently he said he planned to retire after his current contract. Why not? He’ll be set for life, so why keep slogging along and being away from one’s family 8 months a year?

"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry

by danimal15 on Jun 4, 2010 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think the stamina issue is partly because of stronger hitters...

you can’t get away with a mediocre curve or slider anymore. If you do that now, even the middle infielders can take you out of the park. In the old days, you could get away with a “get me over” breaking ball against weaker hitters. Now, pretty much anybody can take a bad breaking ball out (or destroy it for an extra base hit).

That means you have to put that much more on every pitch. So some decline in innings/pitches should be expected.

by SouthernCub on Jun 4, 2010 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Bill James

By the way, mark the words of Bill James quoted above:

“Pitchers don’t have to come out of the game at the 100-pitch mark; it’s just a choice that managers make.”

I doubt this practice will ever end now that it’s become so ensconced over the last decade, so that will certainly inhibit 300-game winners. I’d like to see it end, but I’m in the minority on this board, so I’ll hold my tongue.

Perhaps the current ascendancy of pitching and defense, which I’m very happy about, will mean pitchers can go deeper into games using fewer pitches, leading to more decisions and more wins. We can only hope, because the last few 300-game winners (Clemens, Johnson, Maddux) often had to throw 150 or more pitches to win games early in their careers, and that’s just not done anymore.

"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry

by danimal15 on Jun 4, 2010 10:56 AM CDT reply actions  

Coming out at the 100-pitch mark...

… does NOT have to cost a pitcher a win, unless his team has a crappy bullpen.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

but if you are a 300 game winner candidate

ANYONE that comes in to relieve you, isn’t going to be as good as you are.

"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray

by Archie on Jun 4, 2010 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Of course that's true.

But a good bullpen can save a lot of wins.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bullpens

No doubt, a great or even good pen can save lots of wins. Maddux and Randy Johnson each competed around 20% of their starts, or around 100 games each. Even if they won all 100 of those, the pens would have had to preserve 200 more wins for each of them.

"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry

by danimal15 on Jun 4, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

That Glavine game...

also marked the return of Kerry Wood. I remember the fans went nuts when he started to warm up that night, and Jon Miller thought they were cheering for Tom Glavine. Pretty humorous.

by kanderber on Jun 4, 2010 11:06 AM CDT reply actions  

Probably would be worth buying this book for the stories about the pitchers.

But the 5 man rotation and pitch counts makes the title a moot point. Might be a freak occurance as Al suggest…but really, of course we’ve seen the last of the 300 win pitchers. It’s a different era with different pitching.

"Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two."

by Sandberg's evil twin on Jun 4, 2010 11:07 AM CDT reply actions  

randy

I saw randy’s 300th with less than a 1000 other people (my count) coolest thing I had seen in all of my baseball life until I saw adam jones hit an inside the park homerun.

4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42

by fischisgod on Jun 4, 2010 11:40 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

Reasons why it will be rare

Some of these already listed, but a handy recap

1) PItch counts — Guys are leaving games without leads or with shorter leads more than they used to

2) 5-man rotations — Guys are getting fewer starts

3) Every change in baseball since the lowering of the mound has been in favor of offense. DH, smaller parks, shorter foul ground, smaller strike zone, and no inside pitch.

4) The best young arms are now just as likely to be QBs as pitchers. As recently as 40 years ago, if you wandered into any town of 15,000 people or more and asked the first person at a bar, “Who is your best high school athlete?” you’d most likely hear, “Our ace pitcher.”

Now, that person is likely to be the running back or the point guard. Maybe he pitches as well, but it’s not his best sport nor his favorite sport.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Jun 4, 2010 11:47 AM CDT reply actions  

I meant best athlete

I believe that in the 1970s and certainly earlier, the best athletes were gravitating toward baseball and were generally going to the mound.

And going way back, to the 40s and 50s, you really couldn’t make money as an athlete unless you played baseball, boxed or rode horses.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Jun 4, 2010 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

One more thing.

And this is related to high salaries. Starters are much more likely to get extra rest, or be put on the DL, for nagging pains or aches that in earlier times might have been ignored, both because the team might be less likely to risk their huge investment (although we’ve seen a couple of examples where that hasn’t happened!), and a player might be more likely to complain of an ailment that pitchers of a previous era may have ignored for fear of losing their jobs and comparatively meager salaries entirely.

One of Lee Elia's 15%

by waiting4cubs on Jun 4, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great point

I agree with waiting4Cubs.

"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry

by danimal15 on Jun 4, 2010 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Brock's 3,000th

I still have a bad memory of listening on the radio when Brock got that hit (back then some Cub games weren’t televised). I was very mad when the Cardinals celebrated despite the fact that Dennis Lamp got injured on the play. (As an 8 year old, I don’t think I grasped the significance of the hit).

"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry

by danimal15 on Jun 4, 2010 1:25 PM CDT reply actions  

Saw Rose tie Cobb's record at Wrigley Field

in September, 1985. Was with my daughter who was 6. After that, she thought that every game she went to had to have some kind of record tied or broken.

One of Lee Elia's 15%

by waiting4cubs on Jun 4, 2010 1:32 PM CDT reply actions  

Maddux's 355

I guarantee that no pitcher is ever again going to get to 355 wins.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jun 4, 2010 1:51 PM CDT reply actions  

Don't be so sure.

People said in the 70’s no pitcher would ever again get to 300.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

300 You Bet, 355 No

I’m surprised that people in the 1970’s said no pitcher would ever again get to 300. I don’t go that far back. I’ll take your word for it. I can remember Carlton, Seaver, Perry, Niekro, Sutton, and Ryan all getting their 300th victories. Those pitchers won the majority of their games before 1980, when I started paying attention to baseball.

I know that there were those (myself included) that didn’t think Tom Glavine or Randy Johnson would get to 300 wins. 355 is going to be a lot harder to reach than 300. Halladay and Sabathia might make it to 300, but I can’t possibly see either one of them making it to 355.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jun 4, 2010 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

And keep your eyes on King Felix.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jun 4, 2010 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Al, I saw Maddux's 300th, too

But I live around here. I was trying to convince a few Giants fans around me that they should really enjoy seeing history in the making, but didn’t get any takers.

"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk

by vonde6 on Jun 4, 2010 4:41 PM CDT reply actions  

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