Ready to talk trades.....
I have been thinking about what type of move the Cubs could make that would improve the team next year and may even help this year. What if we went to Seattle with a Fukudome, Theriot, 3 mil 2010 & 3 mil 2011 for Chone Figgins.
Reason why I like this for the Cubs.
Figgins can play 2nd base everyday and be a defensive upgrade for us, he can play 3rd if needed, is a leadoff hitter that knows how to steal bases. Signed thru 2013 with 9 mil option for 2014.
Colvin gets more at bats and we can really see what we have with him. Nady can get a spot start here & there. Even Baker could maybe get a start in RF some and Colvin shift to left to give Soriano a rest.
We are basically giving them back the Silva money, so nothing lost.
Maybe this is a pipe dream but I wanted to put it out there. Discuss away......
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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makes sense
I like the fact that it frees up some space for guys who should be getting alittle more playing time. We would still be covered if Colvin struggles, with Nady, and Baker is still there to back-up. If they really needed a backup SS, we have Barney at Iowa who I think could do an admirable job in that role.
"It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive." W.C. Fields
My thoughts on this idea...
In short: I don’t think it is realistic.
Seattle just signed the guy to a 4-year contract. Why would they want to trade him now? Figgins has had a slow start with the bat, but he’s likely to improve. Meanwhile, Fukudome doesn’t provide any great value for them, and Theriot doesn’t address any need.
As a side note, I’m not sure why you assume that Figgins is an upgrade defensively over our 2B options. Theriot certainly has his limitations offensively, but at 2B I’d say he’s probably pretty solid defensively. Fontenot may be a platoon player, but again I’d say he’s solid defensively. Figgins is fast, but he’s not historically been known as a great defensive player. Last year, he was surprisingly good at 3B. But that’s very different than 2B.
I’m all for the idea of eventually getting rid of Theriot and Fukudome, but I’m not sure that Figgins is a realistic target.
I agree with some of your points
I was hoping the money would be nice for Seattle and I think Figgins has good range at 2nd and is good at turning the DP.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Jun 9, 2010 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Seattle would actually be taking on salary for 2010 and 2011 in that deal, though...
Fukudome and Theriot will make about $12 million more than Figgins over the next two years. So the Mariners would only be saving about $6 million over the life of Figgins’s contract. And they’d then have to replace Figgins’s production in the last two years because Fukudome and Theriot would likely be gone by then. Perhaps that’s not a problem, but we don’t know.
So Seattle would be taking a big downgrade offensively at 2B, and may or may not get an upgrade offensively in LF. Seems to me that if they were going to trade Figgins, it’d be for a better (or at least different) return than adding payroll for equal production. I’d guess they’d rather get real financial savings (i.e., prospects).
Well, they could just non-tender Theriot this Fall
and half of 2010 is over. I think the OP’s math works out pretty well.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
I think that's exactly what's going to happen with Theriot.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I have to say
I do think he is worth something in a trade. Maybe for someone who needs a 2b or limited SS, and sees him as an 8 hitter and not a lead off guy.
I wouldn’t expect anything really great in return, but even spare parts, or long term minor league projects are better then throwing him away.
If someone would take him right now...
… and return an A-ball level pitching prospect, I think the Cubs should do it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agreed
but I don’t think the Cubs have even entertained having him on the market.
I think we have plenty of internal options, Fonty and even Barney included, so replacing him isn’t as big of a deal.
If he is on the market, we may see he go pretty soon, and I’m hoping that’s the case.
They could, but why make that deal then?
Why would Seattle trade for Theriot and then dump him after the season? There’s just very little sense in the deal from Seattle’s perspective unless they’ve immediately given up on Figgins (which I doubt to be the case).
And as has been noted, due to concerns about age and contract (which obviously weren’t a concern for Seattle 6 months ago when they signed him), I don’t believe it makes sense for the Cubs either.
kill me
before you tie me to 3 yrs/27.5 million to Figgins for his 33, 34, and 35 seasons that would coincide with a potential rebuilding effort in 1-2 of those seasons
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 8:35 AM CDT reply actions
I think that's a big problem as well...
was going to mention it in my previous post, but felt that it would scatter my thoughts too much.
I don’t think it’s a realistic trade from Seattle’s perspective, and I don’t think it’s the direction we want to go either (for the very reasons you’ve stated).
I do think that shedding Fukudome’s contract and getting rid of the underproductive Theriot are moves that need to happen for the team’s progress. But I don’t think that Figgins is the direction we should be looking.
And regardless, I don’t think it’s something that would interest Seattle.
theriot can be non-tendered
Fukudome is done after 2011 which coincides with our next window anyway (in terms of roster and financial flexibility)
While i’d be happy to trade either of those guys, they’re not a huge drain on the teams flexibility to rebuild. Guys with contracts that they can’t perform up to that linger into 2012 and beyond are the guys to be most concerned with (in my opinion)
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions
I think you missed my point...
I’m interested in shedding those guys because they’re easy to shed and their production can easily be replaced (if not improved upon). Theriot will likely not be traded, but will be gotten rid of after this year. That coincides with my statement in the previous post. Fukudome may be traded after this year. Worst case we hang on to him through next year. But we’ll be shedding that contract one way or the other.
Basically, the list of guys you’re worried about (lingering contracts that are above the player’s production) includes only Zambrano, Samardzija, and Soriano. And I don’t think either of those guys can easily be traded (without taking a bad financial hit).
As for trades this year, I’d say that Lee and Lilly are likely the only reasonable possibilities. Silva and Byrd have movable contracts (especially if you trade the money from Seattle with Silva), but I think the Cubs will hold on to them as their production currently exceeds their cost (we frequently don’t sell high).
didn't miss the point
i just view Fukudome as difficult to trade as some of the others you mention, he has the NTC, the issues with having to adapt to another culture, the 14.5 million owed to him next year
and while trading theriot would be nice, i don’t think there would be takers given his production and there’s no one we really have to clear him for. I mean Fontenot/Baker should be platooning there but they’re not young players needing time to develop so it doesn’t matter much. It would just be clearing Theriot to help a manager who has a weird affinity to Theriot
i think byrd/silva are the guys you target to move because their production should generate interest and it clears roster spots for 2011 in both cases and 2012 in Byrd’s case. They also both are standing in the way of young players who could use time to develop (Colvin, Gorz) and are cost-controlled through the next 2 years.
Ive been on this rant for about 2-3 weeks, but Byrd and Silva are the two most importnat/realistc guys to move in order to speed up the rebuild process
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions
So you did miss my point...
I wasn’t saying we necessarily need to trade Fukudome and Theriot. I was just saying that those two guys are players who need to be off the team in the long-term. They’re either fairly expensive and not productive enough (Fukudome) or moderately expensive and easily replaced (Theriot).
And as we both agree, they will be reasonably soon.
ok maybe i did miss the point
you say Fukudome and Theriot need to be off the team long-term
then at the end you say they will be soon (Theriot can be non-tendered at end of yr, Fukudome’s contract is up after ’11)
so why focus on those guys as the trade chips? in your first post you indicated:
“I do think that shedding Fukudome’s contract and getting rid of the underproductive Theriot are moves that need to happen for the team’s progress.”
Then I thought I was also responding to the point that they were “easy” to move, which I don’t think is accurate at all with Fukudome
I’m interested in shedding those guys because they’re easy to shed and their production can easily be replaced (if not improved upon)
so maybe i am missing your point because now it sounds like you dont think anyone can be traded other than Lee/Lilly
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree with trading Silva
but I’d rather put effort into eating enough salary to trade Fukudome. Byrd is signed to a reasonable contract, plays well, hustles, and sets a good example for the younger players. He is owed (I think) $12 mil over the next 2 years. He could probably be traded easily enough, but isn’t likely to command a ton in return, meaning if you trade him, it’s mostly to shed his salary.
If you pay 5-7 mil or so of Fukudome’s salary, I think he’s moveable. I don’t tihnk he has a needed role on the team in the short or long term, and given the cultural barriers doens’t bring much to the clubhouse.
I’d rather shave 6-8 mil in salary by trading him, even for essentially nothing, than shave 10-12 mil by trading Byrd and getting a little better than nothing in return.
I don’t want Figgins (and don’t think we could get him), but I think that is an interesting desination for Dome.
DEJESUS!!!
difference between dome and byrd
i’m probably a broken record on this, but… that’s my mantra so i’ll continue
if you don’t see Byrd bringing anything back and you don’t see Fukudome bringing anything back PLUS we’d have to throw in money, get him to waive a no trade clause, etc; why would Fukudome be more desirable than trading Byrd?
You’re saying you’d rather save less money, get less in return, and keep the roster spot tied up 1 more year
Why is that better?
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
marginally
but if you’re committed to rebuilding this thing quickly, what does it matter if we have the better player in place for 2011 if it hurts our financial/roster flexibility for 2012
In the end I dont think its a big deal either way as long as ONE of them is traded to clear room to see if Colvin is a legitimate long-term option or if he’s a 4th OF. I just happen to think moving Byrd is the easier of the two (less salary, slightly better player, no NTC to have to deal with) and gives the benefits of opening another OF position in 2012 that would allow more flexibility in rebuilding
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
and
would potentially bring back a better chip that could help deepen the system
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, sure.
But in your calculus, you are neglecting the massive benefits of us not having to watch Fukudome anymore.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
ha!
i guess i just view watching bad baseball as bad baseball. Whether its 73 wins or 83 wins doesn’t really matter much to me, its all bad
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
I think the Cubs could be
a legitimate team again next year if they play their cards right.
If they are willing and able to trade Lily, Fukudome and one of Lee or Ramirez, that frees up a ton of salary and potentially (in the case of Lily) adds some nice prospects. Committ to trading for Adrian Gonzalez, spend a little in free agency, and this team gets a lot better quickly, if the youngsters are for real.
IF Colvin is a real player, and IF Brett Jackson progresses quickly through the system, and IF Soriano is still playing well and/or on the roster, and none of them get hurt, then you may have an expensive 4th outfielder in Byrd in 2012. But that’s a lot of ifs.
Byrd is a relatively inexpensive player that has intrinsic value to the team. Fukudome has essentially no intrinsic value to the team, and he’s owed what 16-18 mil between now and the end of 2011? If you can get rid of even half that it’s a win for the team imo. Getting rid of Byrd’s contract saves that money, but you still have Fukudome taking up a roster spot, and Dome can’t hit or play CF, 2 things at which Byrd’s doing a nice job.
DEJESUS!!!
ok so give me the plan
I’ve asked Al and others about this before, because i’ve spent A LOT of time assessing the realistic next window and I believe contention in 2011 is unreasonable (Note, I deem contention as a 90 win season) UNLESS (note my only caveat), you spend ridiculously to the point of putting you in the same hole that was dug at the beginning of 2007 or raise the budget to 180 million going forward
So we trade for Adrian Gonzalez in that trade I assume we give up a dearth of prospects to get him. So who do we give up there?
Who do we spend on in FA? The consensus top guys available will be Carl Crawford and Cliff Lee. How much capital are we committing to them? Are we going after both of them, if not who are we pursuing?
I’m not trying to be snarky, i’m interested in the discussion because i’ve spent a lot of time on it and don’t think there’s a way to turn this around in 2011
I think 2012 is much more realistic.
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I think he gave you the plan...
1. Trade Lilly, Fukudome (plus money to make it happen), and one of Ramirez/Lee, each for prospects.
2a. Hope that Soriano continues to play like this year and not like last year.
2b. Hope that Colvin is for real and can play everyday.
2c. Hope that Castro progresses into a plus-player at SS.
2d. Hope that the young pitching prospects emerge.
3. Trade some of those prospects for Gonzalez. (I might note that this could be edited to be “get a productive corner IF”)
The only questions would be “what does it take to get Gonzalez,” or “what does it take to get a productive corner IF?” I don’t know the answer to those questions.
There are obviously a lot of questions in that scenario, which make it debatable as to whether it’s the best route to take. Will Soriano maintain his hitting? Is Colvin for real? Will Castro make the jump? Will our pitchers develop and make an impact? How much will it cost to get Gonzalez/other corner IF?
I agree that it would be easier to simply look forward to 2012. Then, we’d have Lee, Ramirez, Fukudome, and Lilly off the books, and would hopefully have a better idea of the ability/value of our prospects. But it’s not impossible to compete next year, if (as tomas said) the team plays their cards right.
so the idea is?
we add Gonzalez
subtract Lilly, Lee, Fukudome
and we win 20 more games?
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions
The idea is...
we do those things and hope our young players develop, and thus we’d win more games. Not sure if 20 more wins will be necessary (unless this team only wins 70).
First
I assume you don’t mean dearth, which means not very much, when you talk about the prospects necessary.
And yes, I do think the changes above could net 15-20 wins.
Consider this: Lee and Ramirez both probably have negative 1-2 WARPs this year, but are typically in the plus 3-5 range. Adrian Gonzalez had an 8 point something WARP last year.
If we keep Ramirez, and he progresses to his mean next year, we go from a negative 4 WARP in the corner infield spots to a positive 12 (roughly). That’s a gain of 16 wins. Use some of the savings from dumping Lee, Dome and Lily and sign Cliff Lee.
If Castro, Cashner, and Colvin are real, and play a full season, we get improvements there as well.
I don’t think it’s unrealistic.
DEJESUS!!!
ok
so now we’re getting somewhere, this is good conversation.
Who do we give up in the trade for Gonzalez though? You say we still have Cashner, Colvin, and Castro, so none of those guys
Which means we start dipping down into Jay Jackson, Brett Jackson, Chris Carpenter, Lee, Vitters. Who from that group are we sending out.
We have a fairly wide range of price assumption here for Gonzalez, but if we use Tex as the comparison it’s somewhere between Casey Kotchman, and Andrus/Harrison/N. Feliz/Saltalamacchia
obviously very broad range. I’d assume since we’re not giving up Castro/Cashner, the price would be 2-3 of the guys listed above. Do you think that’s fair?
If so, continuing that idea.
We then have this big structure:
Estimated Payroll going into offseason: $120 Million
estimated take-aways: Fukudome – $14.5 Million
estimated add-ons: Gonzalez – $5.5 Million, C. Lee ~ $20 Million
New Payroll – $130 Million
Prospects left in system: 2010 draft, Cashner, Colvin, Castro, 3 of the 6 above
On field talent:
C – Soto (1.9 WAR)
1B – Adrian Gonzalez (2.8 WAR)
2B – Fontenot (0.8 WAR)/Baker (0.4 WAR)
SS – Castro (0.4 WAR)
3B – Ramirez (1.2 WAR)
LF – Soriano (0.8 WAR)
CF – Byrd (1.7 WAR)
RF – Colvin (0.3 WAR)
Rotation: C. Lee (37), Dempster(24), Zambrano (19), Silva (7), Wells (15), Gorz (16)
Bullpen: Cashner (4), Marmol (7), Marshall (5), Grabow (1), Jay Jackson (3)
based on Chone’s WAR projections from June 1st on (for this season) for hitters and Runs vs. Rep for pitchers
So if we use Shawn’s quick calculation on the pitchers WAR we get:
Lee – 3.7 WAR
Dempster – 2.4 WAR
Zambrano – 1.9 WAR
Wells – 1.5 WAR
Gorz – 1.6 WAR
Silva – 0.7 WAR
Cashner – 0.4 WAR
Marmol – 0.7 WAR
Marshall – 0.5 WAR
Jackson – 0.3 WAR
then if these projections are just from June 1st on, we need to add 33% (to get a full season’s worth of projections)
So we get a team WAR of 31.92
I think Replacement level is generally set at around .320 Win %, which is a record of 52-110 (that’s what i found from this baseball-reference article below)
32 wins above replacement gets us to 84-85 Wins
sources used:
http://www.baseballprojection.com/
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/6063
That number surprised me when I looked at it, given the team construction, but it looked like we were still 5 wins short or so of contention. Now perhaps some guys perform better than these projections and others perform worse. Perhaps the rest of the roster (which i assumed at replacement level) makes up some of that difference. But this was my rough calculation (below are the Total WAR for the 19 players)
Player Total WAR
Soto 2.53
Gonzalez 3.72
Fontenot 1.06
Baker 0.53
Castro 0.53
Ramirez 1.60
Soriano 1.06
Byrd 2.26
Colvin 0.40
Lee 4.92
Dempster 3.19
Zambrano 2.53
Gorzelanny 2.13
Wells 2.00
Silva 0.93
Cashner 0.53
Marmol 0.93
Marshall 0.67
Jackson 0.40
31.92
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure how accurate all this is
So i don’t want to paint it as the end-all be-all.
As i look over it I certainly see areas that seem illogically low (Castro comes to mind) and some that seem a bit irrationally high
but i went through the exercise because i thought your ideas made some sense and wanted to put some numbers to them.
While I’d agree that number probably seems low and that team “looks” like a contender, it does require almost everything to go right for the Cubs. Signing Lee, being able to trade Fukudome, acquiring Gonzalez, getting jumps in development from young guys, etc
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Wasn't Gonzalez a 6.5-7 WAR last year....
…and, per fangraphs, already a 2.1 this year, and counting?
2.8 seems really, really low for him. He’s never been that low in any full season in his career.
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by D98 on Jun 9, 2010 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions
2.8 was 2/3's of a season
3.7 if you extrapolate it to a full season
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
For the "cards falling right scenario"
I’d say the WAR estimates for Soriano, Colvin, Castro, Ramirez, and Gonzalez all seem low (even adjusting for a full 2011 season). That’s just a quick glance. There may be several other issues (in both directions).
Granted, your projections may very well be accurate, in which case we wouldn’t be competitive.
not mine - projections
CHONE’s
just giving credit where its due
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Fair enough (sorry CHONE!)
Just saying that Gonzalez had a WAR of 6.6 last year and is at 2.1 already this year. And Theriot had an average WAR of 2.3 the last three years.
Based on that, I’d think it reasonable to expect/hope for higher than a 3.7 for Gonzalez and a 0.5 for Castro.
Fukudome averaged a 2.1 the past two years, so it would seem that Colvin could possibly do better than a 0.4 (if he’s for real).
This is of course semantics. I think we can agree that a lot of things would need to go right to be a 90+ win team next year (including somehow acquiring Gonzalez). But I don’t think it would be completely far-fetched for that team to win 90+ games.
The harder part is making the necessary transactions, of course.
all fair points
but guys like Aramis, posting a -1.2 WAR this year or Soriano the year before, who are older and are more likely to get collapse type seasons need to be taken into account.
I also think Wells and Gorz’s WAR’s are a bit high.
All-in-all there are some higher than i’d guess and some far lower (like Castro that one seems silly because i’m using a 2010 2nd half projection for a 20 year old who is likely to take bigger steps forward) and my goal was to perhaps show how close the “range” was
I think the point is all these things have to go right and we’re on the fringe of contention, not like a dominant 95+ win team or anything
To me, that’s not worth the risk of signing a 32 going on 33 year old pitcher to a long-term deal or trading away a big piece of the farm for an elite 1B, when he or another elite 1B might be FA’s the next year
I’d rather use 2011 as a developmental year to learn about what we have before throwing more assets at the wall, locking up more roster spots long-term and potentially blocking prospects
I’d prefer to be a bit more tactical about the big FA contracts and try to layer them a bit more, so that they more closely correspond with the time our young players are hitting their prime
but to each his own
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd
take Gonzalez now over the possibility of one of the 2012 first basemen any day, even with the prospects it takes to get him.
I don’t think Pujols will leave St Louis, and if he does it’ll be because he wants a 30 mil contract. I think Prince should go to the AL.
I think that middle of the order left-handed bats are rare enough to unload some high-end prospects, particularly when we should be picking up some solid prospects for Lily, Gorz and Lee, if they’re all moved (which they should be, imo, as it shortens the window).
I don’t think you need to have a 95 win projection to consider yourself a contender. A projected win total of 85 or more would be a pretty successful off-season considering the current state of the team, and that win total should rise over the next few years as bad contracts come off the books and players progress.
Gonzalez is (I think) 27. He should have about 5 more years before his skills taper off. He’s one of the better left-handed bats in the game. We don’t have any prospects so good, or any assurances the team will be so bad next year, that we shouldn’t go after him.
Of note, I think Cliff Lee would be a nice target, but I wouldn’t give him a 5 year contract, I wouldn’t go north of 18-20 a year, and I think he’ll probably get extended by whoever trades for him at the deadline, so he’s probably a moot point.
DEJESUS!!!
Cliff Lee
Well that’s kind of a big problem then if you don’t want to go after him in creating a contender next season, he’s a 5 WAR player in this scenario
if you’re not willing to spend big on Lee in years and dollars, I’m not sure a contender next year is realistic
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 7:35 PM CDT up reply actions
I probably agree on Cliff Lee
Seems like it would be the same type of mistake that the Cubs have made in the past. But, he is by far the best pitcher to come on the market in 2011 and 2012. The best pitchers in 2012 are Carpenter (37 w/ 15m club option), Buehrle (33), Oswalt (34 w/ 16m club option), Wang (32), Edwin Jackson (28) Kazmir (28 w/ 13.5 club option). I am ignoring Wainwright b/c he has a $9m club option and I don’t think Sabathia will opt out of the last 4 years of his deal.
None of the 2012 guys are particularly appetizing options. Lee will probably be the best pitcher among all those in 2012 and 2013. The question is whether he is going to cripple you in the last two years of his deal. It may not be the best option but I am not going to outright dismiss it.
He is already at 2.9 WAR in only 61 2/3 IP so far this year, and was at 6.6 and 7.2 the last two years. Considering he doesn’t really rely on overpowering stuff, but command I think he could be a 5 WAR pitcher into 2012 and 2013.
by JSB on Jun 9, 2010 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions
that's why its so impt
to develop internally
of course all this may be moot as the reports today are suggesting that Lee is very likely to end up a Yankee
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions
No doubt
Teams aren’t really letting their premier players reach free agency anymore. The list of 2011 and 2012 free agents has basically nobody under the age of 30 that is a star-quality player besides Fielder and Gonzalez. That’s why I think that we are going to have to be patient and hope our own prospects develop into front-line players if we want to be true World Series contenders. I just don’t think a quick fix for 2011 or even for 2012 is really possible.
by JSB on Jun 9, 2010 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah my plan for 2012
is built a lot on Cashner/Castro becoming stars + a big name 1B bat
the big improvement about our farm system now is that the up-the-middle players we’re producing should allow us to spend a bit better in FA and if we’re getting so much value from our up the middle players its easier to build around. The Phillies are the prime example for this
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 8:07 PM CDT up reply actions
In 2012
2012 lineup:
1B Gonzalez/Fielder
2B ????
SS Castro
3B Vitters
LF Soriano
CF Jackson/Byrd
RF Colvin
SP1 Cashner
SP2 FA
SP3 Zambrano
SP4 J. Jackson
SP 5 Wells/Gorz
The only way I see that team being a World Series contender is if every single one of our prospects meets or exceeds expectations. It seems unlikely to me.
by JSB on Jun 9, 2010 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions
There is
a lot of room for free agent additions in there—probably 50 mil coming off the books by the time that team is put together. That would pay for an ace pitcher and an all-star third baseman or second baseman.
DEJESUS!!!
Problem is who do you sign?
You will have the money, but there aren’t really many people worth throwing big cash at, which leaves us spending big dollars for above average players, exactly the situation we are in now. I don’t see any elite 3B (Ramirez and Beltre in 2011 are the closest) coming onto the market and the best young 2B is Rickie Weeks in 2012 and he has yet to really put it all together.
I listed the FA pitchers above, and the only elite guy that isn’t above 35 is Cliff Lee. There just aren’t a lot of players to be had in the next couple years.
by JSB on Jun 9, 2010 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I really hope Vitters makes it to the Show in 2012.
I remain very hopeful about him – he struggled at Peoria a couple of times, too, and eventually started hitting.
But regardless, it’s probably a bit of a reach to pencil him into our starting lineup in 2012, when he’s struggling to hit .200 in AA in 2010.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Agreed about Vitters...
Hopefully his struggles in AA are due to the fact that he’s only 20 in AA. But he didn’t exactly tear up A+ ball at 19 or 20 either.
There’s no reason to give up hope on him yet, but penciling him in as a the regular big-club starter in two years might still be optimistic.
I’d say that if he makes the bigs, I’d suspect it would be in 2012 or 2013. But I’d say there’s still a question of whether or not he makes it.
by SouthernCub on Jun 10, 2010 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions
my plan
SP2 would be Dempster in that scenario, just as an FYI
I realize it takes a lot of things working out (just like a 2011 plan or a 2013 plan or heck any plan when turning this team into a WS contender), but here was my basis
Yunel Escobar, considered a conservative comp for Castro was a 3-4 WAR player in his 3rd year in the big leagues. Granted he was older and perhaps more power ready, but I think the mid point on that comp is fair, so something like a 3.5 WAR player
Gonzalez/Fielder would still be in the prime of their careers and a 5 WAR player there
I think Soto’s a 3 WAR player at age 29, possibly a 4 WAR player considering it would be in the peak years
From those 3 offensive points on the field we already have 11.5 WAR. If we get a good defensive minded 3B that seem to float around, guys like Pedro Feliz (way back when)/Adrian Beltre, someone like that that becomes undervalued, I think a 2 WAR expectation for 3B becomes reasonable even if Vitters isn’t ready
so we’re up to 13.5. If Demp/Zambrano combine for about 5 WAR, and Marmol is another 1.5, we’re now up to 20
So we need 16 more WAR or so from:
RF – Colvin?
LF – Soriano?
2B – FA (Uggla, Kelly Johnson type?) Or H. Lee maybe though that would be pick
CF – B. Jackson/Byrd
SP 3, 4, 5 – Wells, Gorz, Jackson, Cashner, Carpenter
rest of bullpen/bench
Basically the 7 spots of premium innings/AB’s (3 starters, 4 position players) would have to average a little over 2 WAR
It’s not that unrealistic if Cashner becomes an ace.
Obviously there’s a lot of its in there, there’s a lot of ifs in all of these but if Castro/Cashner alone become above average players in that time and we add a big FA 1B, I think you can assume maintenance in performance of Soto/Dempster/Marmol and we’re not that far away
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 10, 2010 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
In my opinion
Gonzalez is what the team will need next year, and will be a better fit than anyone available in 2012. Better to work on getting him now and address other needs (such as 3b, which could be an issue if Vitters doesn’t progress) in 2012.
Gonzalez is only 27. Start the rebuilding process with him, and who knows, the 2011 could exceed expectations (particularly since the WAR expectations you outlined above, while interesting, probably have a margin of error of about 15 wins).
DEJESUS!!!
In that mix, I'd take Gonzalez but not Lee
It may be a good idea to look to add some of the players the team needs in 2010-2011. Rolling the dice on all the prospects meeting their promise or a massive 2011-2012 FA binge actually seems riskier to me. And I don’t think the Cubs have a hotshot 1B in their system right now, but that may change if they do some good selling later this year.
Of course one issue is whether the Cubs match up well with SD. I don’t follow them enough to know what they need – and if the Cubs propects aren’t interesting to them, 3-way deals get complicated.
As for Lee, no thanks. Let someone else signe a 33 year old pitcher to a 5-year, $100M deal.
I have no idea
what it would take to get Adrian Gonzalez. Enough that it would be painful, but not so much that it wouldn’t make getting one of the better lefty sluggers in baseball worth it.
I would also be highly in favor of trading Gorz at the deadline this year. I think his salary and cost control would make him attractive to teams that aren’t generally buyers at the deadline (ex Rays, Twins, Pads, etc), and could bring in some high-quality prospects that would soften the blow of losing the prospects sent to San Diego.
Your WAR estimates use 2010 second half projections (I understand that’s all that is available). Since the team above is for the most part young, using this year’s projections is likely to underestimate their output (since they are in the progression phase of their career, rather than the regression phase (Demp, Byrd, Ramirez and Soriano are the only ones in regression phase at first glance, and Demp and Byrd are notoriously hard-working which should temper their regression).
So let’s say your back of the napkin estimates above under-estimated their win projection by 3 wins based on using 2009 numbers. That takes the projection to 88 or so wins. That does not factor in 10-15 mil in possible roster flexibility, which could be used to upgrade either before the season or mid-season.
I would be ok with going into next season with an 86-90 win projection, particularly when the roster becomes as young as the one above.
There are a lot of ifs in this scenaio, probably the biggest of which is not trading Fukudome, but acquiring Gonzalez.
DEJESUS!!!
i get where you're at
I just dont think getting Gonzalez is reasonable this year, I think they’re going to contend all year and then it will be tough to deal him in the offseason. I think he hits FA, which in that case i’d rather blow him away with money than spend a bunch of prospects on him and still have to extend him
i also think trading Fukudome will be much more complicated than most around here think.
That’s kind of why my eyes have been set on 2012, and a guy like Gonzalez or Fielder have been at the heart of that as well
i’d also add that Cliff Lee at 32 going on 33 would be in the potential regression phase of his career
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think
he’s reasonable mid-season, but I think the Padres will fall out of the race by the end of the year. They’re too incomplete, and I think they’ll find the possibility of bringing in a package of 3 “B” grade prospects—something like Vitters, Hak-Ju Lee, Carpenter—too much to pass up on their budget.
DEJESUS!!!
I'm not sure the Padres fall out of it
They’ve got a solid rotation, the best pen in the game, and are an excellent fielding team.
Even if they fall out of it, I’m not sure a package of anything in our system would stand out so much that they would have to make the deal. Might Vitters/Lee/Carpenter get their attention? Perhaps, but the chances are quite high that they could land a piece that holds more value to them (after all, they have their own scuffling 3rd baseman in Darnell, they have a solid shortstop prospect in A+ in Drew Cumberland, and there is pitching in the system, although you can never have enough).
My guess is that they hold him through the winter. I doubt they’ll try to make a big splash at the deadline, but this is a team that has played rather well since late last season. If a MI that can double as a top of the order hitter comes onto the market, I could see them have some interest, unless Everth Cabrera or someone gets on a hot streak. I could also see them try to add a bat with some pop if the price is right.
only time will tell.
Good pitching can keep you in it a long time
and the Fightin Friars have a very good rotation.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jun 12, 2010 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions
maybe I am missing something
like a HUGE trade recently – who is C. Lee?
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Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
Cliff Lee
the poster assumed a Cliff Lee signing and Adrian Gonzalez trade acquisition
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
is he a f/a
after this year? I thought he recently signed – if he is I dont see this happening – 2011 is going to be a lost year for the Cubs as Ricketts exorcises the demons of the Tribune Era and get some prospects in here to test em out before hitting the fa market big time after the 2011 season.
Sipping the Kool-Aid since 1982 - Kinda
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
he's a FA
he and Carl Crawford are the two big name FA’s available at the end of the year
i dont think we have a spot for Crawford and at 32 going on 33 i wouldn’t be inclined to invest long years and big dollars into Cliff Lee, which is why I haven’t been a proponent of trying to turn this thing around in just 1 year
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Byrd
is under contract for 2 more seasons, plays well offensively and defensively, is cheaper, and sets a good example with his hustle.
Fukudome plays good defense…and I think that’s about it.
Byrd is worth his contract and roster spot to me. I’d pay to get rid of Dome’s contract and roster spot. I think Byrd’s contract will run out at roughly the same time Brett Jackson develops enough to break out without being rushed.
DEJESUS!!!
fair enough
i was hoping Jackson would be ready by 2012, but it sounds like you don’t think he’ll be here until 2013.
If he’s ready in 2012 you have the Colvin issue this year re-done all over again (assuming Colvin is an answer)
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Ever since the Byrd signing, I figured that by the 2012 season rolled around
he would be the fourth OF. He could spell an aging Soriano, as well as Colvin and Jackson, both LH hitters. That said, that’s an awful lot of assuming, expecting Colvin and Jackson to be ML starters in 2012. But it could work out.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
its just a lot
to pay a 4th OF
$7 million bucks
plus he’ll be 34 at that point, will he still be able to handle CF? I dont know…
i’d just rather move him now while the value is there. But to me its more important to move either Fukudome or Byrd than it matters which specific one. I just happen to think Byrd is easier to move
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with that...
With Colvin and (hopefully) Jackson showing potential, there’s no reason for both of those guys. Especially when cheap platoon options like Nady can be available each year.
Your points about Byrd/Fukudome are all correct
I just hate to see the Cubs give up someone who plays hard. The clubhouse has a paid case of the underperform doldroms this year and a guy like Byrd who goes out and busts it is one of the few bright spots in most games. Plus the younger players should see an example that you need to play the game hard even when things dont’ seem to be going well – that is the only way teams turn around.
I know that isn’t entirely rational, but otherwise I find myself dreading the moment when the umpire says, “Play ball.”
Yeah, you're missing my point (no problem though - we mostly agree)...
I didn’t ever focus on them as trade chips. I was responding to the proposed trade idea, which was based on Fukudome and Theriot. I don’t think they’re good trade options, but I do think that getting them off the team is good for the team. I’m pretty sure I didn’t say I specifically want to trade them. That was the domain of the original fanpost.
I think they’re easy to get rid of in that Theriot can be let go after the season. I think Fukudome could be traded after this season if money sent along with him (though he wouldn’t get much in return), especially to a West Coast team. But worst case, he’s off the books after 2011. Either way, he’s still pretty easily moved off the team).
I think the confusion came in that I was merely referring to wanting them out of the picture from a cost-effectiveness perspective, whereas the original poster was exclusively talking about trading them.
And for the record...
I completely understand the confusion. Perhaps my wording wasn’t as clear as I thought it was. I think you focused on a throwaway sentence that I didn’t word well, but I can see where we got on different tracks now.
no big deal
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Fukudome to Seattle may work.
But we’re going to have to ask for a lot less than the guy they just signed to a 4 year deal to be their leadoff man.
Like, for instance, “Fukudome and $5M in 2010 for absolutely nothing”. It’s a win for Seattle, because he’s only signed for 1 more year, he is Japanese and that works well in their market, and he’s better than their current LF options. Besides, who wouldn’t want to assemble as much of the 2009 Cubs outfield as possible? Those were some good times.
For us, it saves us a little bit of money and opens a spot for Tyler Colvin, so we can finally take an extended look and determine if there is anything going on there.
In the meantime, now that Justin Smoak is hitting, I’d get Texas on the horn and see what it would take to get Chris Davis into blue pinstripes. He strikes out a ton and may not be worth anything, but at worst, he can be the 1B/3B backup for next year, and at best, he could be a 1B starter while we wait for an elite free agent.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Hm, Kosuke and Ichiro on the corners...
…does make for an interesting image.
Certified Twitterfiend.
I agree on Fukudome...
I wouldn’t doubt that they’d be interested in him (along with big financial assistance). But not at the expense of trading Figgins for Theriot.
Fukudome and $5M to Seattle for nothing sounds like a good deal for the Cubs
They clear a spot for Colvin to play, save $$$$ in 2011. Heck, I would even send back the $6M the Cubs got with Silva……
But would Seattle really be interested? I don’t know what they need, but there aren’t many questions for which “Fukudome” is the answer.
They seem to love defensive/OBP-minded OFs with very little power. Plus, he's Japanese, amiright?
I agree, I can’t even fathom why anyone would want him. But if we’re able to save even a little bit of money by sending him west, I’d be all over it.
Besides, come on, man. I need this. Let me have this dream.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jun 9, 2010 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions
And they value defense. As long as they keep Dome out of CF, he would be a plus
defensively for them. Actually, with Ichiro, Franklin Gutierrez, and Dome that might be a defensive outfield with no equal in the game.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
Seattle will be Trading
If anything. That is the position they will be in. Fukodome may fit in well with them but that’s a small part of the puzzle.They have other priorities.
Do not want Chone Figgins for the next 3 to 4 years
Everyone complains about the Cubs big contracts to aging under performing veterans. Why make the problem worse with Figgins?
I really don’t understand this trade at all.
Ryan Theriot isn't even owned in
most fantasy leagues.
I look forward to hearing any other options.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Jun 9, 2010 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
My question is why do you want Chone Figgins for the next 3 to 4 years?
I didn’t want him last off-season as a FA as I thought he was too expensive for his age. His performance this year has made me even more sure. He rode a strong 2009 to a lucrative contract. Let the Mariners pay him through age 35.
good question
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jun 9, 2010 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Here is why
Look at Figgins 2005 -2009 pretty good and 07 & 08 he had some injuries but still was productive. I think he can be productive and meet the expectations of the contract.
Career .288 hitter and around .360 OBP and good for 25-30 steals each year during the contract.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Jun 9, 2010 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Either way, it's moot...
Seattle isn’t making that trade.
You might be able to get them to take Fukudome. But it will cost some money in return, and we’d likely get scraps back.
But he is 32 and a line this year of .228 / .337 / .286.
After what the Cubs have been going through, an aging veteran having a down season and a long contract doesn’t scare you?
it should worry you more
he is on the downhill side to his career, and his downhill might be a lot steeper than most. I am all in favor of improving the roster, but Figgins is not the kind of guy you rebuild with.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jun 9, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Figgins 2005-2009
Wave your looking at the past too much. Figgins is showing signs of wearing down, all it takes is one year for a players skills to diminish. Look at Manny Ramirez.
Honestly, I don't know of many/any great options...
that’s why I tend to hate message board trade proposals (not just yours – the concept in general).
Teams don’t frequently trade contracts for contracts. They typically dump salary for prospects, or trade prospects for talented guys who are (or are about to get) expensive.
Fukudome is probably more suited to a salary dump for low-level minor leaguers type of trade. Theriot is probably not really worth much in a trade at all.
And that ignores the fact that Figgins probably isn’t a good fit for us moving forward anyway (due to age and contract length).
Trade him to Baltimore for a PTBNL or
“little” Caesar Izturis.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Given Figgins' age and contract size...
…I wouldn’t approve this trade either.
Certified Twitterfiend.
I'm tired of
Theriot and Fukudome. Maybe Figgins has 1 year on the contract where he will not be worth what he is paid but he definately had some good years for the Angels besides last year. Look at Figgins 2005 -2009 pretty good and 07 & 08 he had some injuries but still was productive.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Jun 9, 2010 9:38 AM CDT reply actions
I'm tired of Fukudome and Theriot too...
that doesn’t mean your trade proposal is reasonable.
Almost at whatever cost I would move Fukudome to
Seattle or San Francisco. They seem to be the only possible fit. If either of them will take Theriot also then great.
I want to see Colvin get the most at bats he can this season.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Jun 9, 2010 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Boston.
They’re CFs, Cameron and Ellsbury have been terrible this season. Hendry needs to see what it would take for them to take Fukudome and maybe we could get Lowell in return.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
In fairness to Cameron and Ellsbury, they've been
hurt most of the year, regardless their options at CF are limited, I doubt this could get done because Boston wouldn’t likely want Fuku beyond this season, but I can hope.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Theriot will gone after this year
and Fukudome could be traded with cash after this year for a lot cheaper than getting stuck with Figgins.
I don't see Seattle going for this
They acquired Jack Wilson at SS last year if I recall and he’s a fine defender. They have Bradley in LF now—so while Kosuke may be an upgrade defensively—i don’t know that he’s a whole bunch of help otherwise. Figgins is a real good defender at 3B—but not as good at 2B. the contract rsembles something like Soriano’s insofar as size of payments in later years and Figgy’s game relies on his legs—which ain’t gettin’ any younger. In ’08 and ’09 he got caught stealing a bunch.
"He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know. " Abraham Lincoln
Wilson is hurt and may not be able to get back to full strength
That’s why I think Seattle would have much more interest in Darwin Barney than Ryan Theriot.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
I bet Seattle would
Unloading the Figgins deal plus getting cash. They could always release Theriot after this year.
The Cubs are the one that shouldn’t do this.
One thought I had after the draft
Since 2011 is supposed to be such a great, deep draft class, any supplemental picks for next year are worth more than normal. That could be another reason not to trade Lilly and Lee. Or, it could be a reason they would be even more attractive to a potential trade partner. A minor point, but one that could play into decisions.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
also another reason
NOT to spend in FA next year
besides the obvious reasons of needing to rebuild and restructure things before adding more long-term expensive contracts to the team, spending in FA next year further inhibits our goal of rebuilding by giving up draft picks in a LOADED class
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Jun 9, 2010 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Besides, the Cubs don't have enough payroll freeing up in 2011 to really accomplish anything in the FA market
In today’s market, $10M/year gets you a “might be” star who had a good year or two. Been there, done that.
Yes, but Hendry absolutely, positively has to offer arbitration to get those picks
Time to look at the team before the players.
If both players are on our team at the end of 2010, he absolutely should offer arb to them.
He should have offered Kerry Wood with the intent of keeping him on a 1-year deal anyways.
This time around, hopefully we’ve learned our lesson about how the draft works?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
If I was handicapping it now
I’d say that Lilly is gone even with arbitration (and may get moved before the deadline). He is starting to look sharp and LH starters are pretty coveted.
If Lee doesn’t pick up his game – he may be with the 2011 Cubs on a 1-year arb deal. That wouldn’t be awful, since they don’t have anyone tearing up the high minors at 1B. I’d love to see the team get Gonzalez, but a reasonable analysis really says that isn’t likely.
not this again
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The Chicago Blackhawks: The only Chicago team worth caring about.
ONE.MORE.WIN
Yep
It is the trade our crap for some great players because other teams are REALLY stupid thread.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Jun 9, 2010 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
it isnt the same
without eric….
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The Chicago Blackhawks: The only Chicago team worth caring about.
ONE.MORE.WIN
by jesus christos on Jun 9, 2010 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Fukudome isn't crap
at least compared to Figgins. Not that I think the Mariners would make the proposed deal. But you have two expensive players who are underperforming expectations, and play very different positions. One gets paid more this year and next, the other the two years following. These are the kind of trade-offs than can lead to a deal.
He didn’t say trade Mitch Atkins and Mike Fontenot for Chone Figgins. Actually, wait, would that work…?
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
I'm normally a Riot supporter
But he’s making it awful hard this year. I’m still not ready to give up on the season, but I don’t think trading Theriot is giving up on the season, as there are plenty of other options such as Fonty, Baker, or even Barney.
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jun 9, 2010 12:06 PM CDT reply actions
Theriot
is a role player. His role is to either take a walk or hit the ball the other way. He used to understand that. Those 7 home runs last year ruined him.
DEJESUS!!!
im still ticked
off he swung at the 1st pitch after a walk….thats something a little league coach teaches….
by cozmotaylor123 on Jun 9, 2010 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
there is that mind set that after watching the pitcher walk the bases loaded,
you assume the pitcher is going to throw a get me over pitch to start the next hitter, so you go up looking for it to drill.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jun 10, 2010 8:03 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't want to talk about any trades
that don’t involve the Cubs acquiring the ultra-dreamy Kila Ka’aihue.
Is there someway we could add the National to this scenario and get Stephen Strasburg??
{sarcasm}
is it just me or did his breaking ball remind people of Kerry Wood in 1998?
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
Everything about that game reminded
me of Kerry Wood.
DEJESUS!!!
I just got done watching ESPN
for the last 2 weeks and I think comparing Strasburg to Kerry Wood is WAAAAAAY off base…I think a better comparison would be Strasburg to Zues…I heard bits of the first draft of his HoF speech and it is amazing…seriously, where were the Cubs on this draft pick?
Sipping the Kool-Aid since 1982 - Kinda
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
Winning their division while the Nationals went 0-162?
Just like in football, getting that first pick requires a really lucky trade or some serious sucking.
that was what I flashed on watching the film
explosive 4 seam fastball and and unhittable breaking ball
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jun 10, 2010 8:05 AM CDT up reply actions
I doubt the Mariners would see much value in this trade
They probably want to get Saunders ABs in the OF, no real need for Fukudome. And Theriot would be a step down from Figgins at second.
The only trade I really want to see is one for Gaby Sanchez in the offseason.
by Castro Por Presidente on Jun 9, 2010 4:42 PM CDT reply actions
NO ADAM LIND?
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ONE.MORE.WIN
by jesus christos on Jun 9, 2010 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Deal Fukudome to SF
They need help in the outfield. Cubs can get a prospect or two and pay a portion on Fukudome’s contract.
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!
by CubFaninCA on Jun 9, 2010 10:47 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Just to BS some trade ideas...
Fukudome and cash to the Yankees for RHP Zach McCallister, RHP Bryan Mitchell, and RHP Adam Warren.
Lilly and cash to the Mets for Neise, 1B Nick Evans, and LHP Robert Carson.
Aramis Ramirez to the Angels for Brandon Wood, Jordan Walden, and C Carlos Ramirez.
Xavier Nady to the Giants for Waldis Joaquin, Conor Gillaspie, and someone.
I can't tell whether you are being serious or whether that "BS" means what I think it does.
Why would any of those teams do those deals?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra























