Dodgers-Giants - Mound Visit CONTRO-versy
by Worf on Jul 21, 2010 11:28 AM CDT
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http://deadspin.com/5592645/dodgers-lose-another-one-this-time-to-the-rulebook
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I can't stand Mattingly or the Dodgers, so this made me giggle until I snorted. Snork!
As for the rule, it's kinda stupid, but it is a rule and something Mattingly should have known. And exactly what was James Loney asking? "Hey, Don, so, if the ball is hit to me, do I try to catch it!????"
Mound visits are idiotic anyway.
Kudos to Bruce Bochy. Had he not protested, the umps probably would have let it go. THIS is a manager who has his head in the game.
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This certainly won't help Mattingly's case to take over for Joe Torre
Good for Bruce Bochy for fitting all the rules into his Size 8 head and catching the Dodgers on it.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Bochy has done this before
He caught Grady Little doing the same thing when he was managing the Padres.
Why does the grass grow green at Dodger Stadium?
It’s got be from all the chicken salad that gets spread around by this kind of call. It doubtlessly must remind Donnie B. of the Billy Martin-produced Pine Tar controversy he witnessed in his first few weeks in the bigs.
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
I saw that
It really is kinda stupid, but I thought that kinda stuff only happened to the Cubs?
Whatever, I’m glad it didn’t.
"Get up or GET OUT THE WAY!"
~Stacy King
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 21, 2010 12:23 PM CDT reply actions
Tim McClelland makes himself center of attention again
MLB Rule 8.06 makes it sound like what should have happened Tuesday was Mattingly should have been ejected, Broxton should have pitched to Torres and then been replaced:
“In a case where a manager has made his first trip to the mound and then returns the second time to the mound in the same inning with the same pitcher in the game and the same batter at bat, after being warned by the umpire that he cannot return to the mound, the manager shall be removed from the game and the pitcher required to pitch to the batter until he is retired or gets on base. After the batter is retired, or becomes a base runner, then this pitcher must be removed from the game. The manager should be notified that his pitcher will be removed from the game after he pitches to one hitter, so he can have a substitute pitcher warmed up.
“The substitute pitcher will be allowed eight preparatory pitches or more if in the umpire’s judgment circumstances justify.”
The LA Times
is misinterpreting the rule and McClelland is correctly interpreting it.
That rule is in place because if you bring a pitcher into a game, he has to pitch to one batter, barring an injury or ejection. That rule means that had Broxton entered the game to face Torres and then Bochy pinch-hit Ishikawa, he couldn’t go to the mound twice and then say “I have to take Broxton out for Sherrill” for example. It’s a way to prevent a crafty manager from using the rule to get an unfair advantage. It doesn’t apply here.
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/4414/mattingly-tripped-up-by-hazy-rules
by Josh Timmers on Jul 21, 2010 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
The rule doesn't matter
Because nobody was pulling out the rulebook in the game to check. McClelland said he could throw more than 8 pitches and he should have made sure that was clear to Adrian Johnson, the home plate umpire.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Jul 21, 2010 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Huh?
The rule is the rule. Bochy knew it. The umps knew it. Even Mattingly said he knew it.
by Josh Timmers on Jul 21, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
make up your mind
Either you say
he umps knew it.or
Where McClelland screwed up
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Jul 22, 2010 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Where McClelland screwed up
was that Mattngly asked him whether Sherrill would be given time to warm up, McClelland said sure. The problem is that the rule is that the pitcher shall get “at least eight” warmup pitches and more at the umpire’s discretion. Since McClelland wasn’t the home plate umpire, it wasn’t his call to make and the home plate umpire told Sherrill he was done after eight warm up pitches.
by Josh Timmers on Jul 21, 2010 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Was that a classic or what?!
TWO steps off the dirt, the numb-nuts turns around to answer Loney and he walks back up the hill to do it.
Funny ass rule but credit Bochy for have brass balls in calling it out !!
Just win the next game...!
Ryne Sandberg
would’ve never gone to the mound twice like that.
DEJESUS!!!
That is correct.
The mound would have moved along with Ryne while he walked towards first base and then Chuck Norris would have appeared in the clouds above Wrigley…
I think you mean....
Ted Lilly.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
I saw this last night and I thought Bruce Bochy was a nit-picking bitch
What BS! If you want to play that, the Dodgers should do everything they can to nit-pick back at the Giants. And expect a fastball right on the numbers too.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
This happened to Dusty once too as Cubs manager
Only worse. The other team didn’t complain. The umpires realized that Dusty had made 2 “visits”, but only after the pitcher had recorded an out. And then they said he had to be lifted. BS umpiring.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Jul 21, 2010 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Any Giants hitter who gets plunked
should wait outside and beat Mattingly with a tire iron
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Out of curiosity...
Why the hostility for Mattingly? Did I miss the story where he beat his children or something?
Not really Mattingly, although I dislike him
More along the lines of someone plunking someone in retaliation.
I’m in favor of the death penalty for that.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
You still think that after they lost from runs scored after it?
It is nitpicking sure…but he was obviously smart in doing it. I’m sure he’s been worried someone would call him a bitch in a blog…cowering in fear now.
Shut Up Joe Morgan
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 21, 2010 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Plenty of Dodgers vs. Giants games left to equal the score
Apparently attention to detail is lacking in Los Angeles:
<blockquoteOf course, the umpires acted on none of this initially. If Padres manager Bruce Bochy had not protested, the umpires were going to let Mattingly’s goof just slip by.>
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Jul 21, 2010 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Bahahahaha
You know, some part of me always thought LA was stuck in the past.
Or just too lazy to care.
by Steven Schweickert on Jul 21, 2010 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions
"To even the score?"
You mean by telling the umps there were two visits to the mound? Well if they are stupid enough to do it after this whole thing happened, they deserve to be caught. I sure know they aren’t worried about you calling them names.
Shut Up Joe Morgan
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 22, 2010 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Nope, sorry.
Bochy did the right thing. I was watching it when it happened. Vin Scully said that this was the second time Bochy has nailed someone for it, and it is Mattingly’s job to know the rules. It got Broxton out of there and they got Sherrill, rescued from DFA land just the last day or so. Brilliant move by Bochy.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
I think there
is a letter of the rule/spirit of the rule thing here, and it depends on which side of that you tend to fall.
When they wrote the rule book, I’m sure they didn’t have something like what occurred yesterday in mind when they wrote that rule. If they knew it would be used like it was yesterday, they probably would’ve been more explicit in how they wrote it. But they didn’t, so some people are going to follow what is written to the letter, whether that’s the intention of the rule or not.
DEJESUS!!!
If it's a real problem, they can correct it in the off season
Until then, the rules were made to be followed. You can’t argue intent if it violates the rule as written.
It has nothing to with the spirit of the law
the rule is clear, and the rule is fine as is. Unfortunately the umps were not clear on the rule and incorrectly enforced it by requiring the Dodgers pull Broxton immediately.
Maybe Bochy knew the rule and was hoping the umps did not so he could get Broxton pulled immediately and face a cold pitcher, or maybe (and more likely) he did not know the rule either and just got lucky. Either way, good piece of managing by Bochy. It is the manager’s job to put his team in a position to win and he did that.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 22, 2010 8:03 AM CDT up reply actions
I have to agree with you completely on your second paragraph.
I think that anyone getting upset with Bochy about this has some agenda towards him or the Giants that is misplaced here. You try to do all you can to win. If you aren’t trying to do that, then you’re not making enough of an effort as a manager, “nit picking” or not. Whether or not it was luck that got the pitcher pulled, he was trying to help his team and it worked. He didn’t cheat, he didn’t lie or do anything but question the ump about a rule on the books. And if someone doesn’t want his own manager to do this, then they don’t really want their manager doing everything they can to win.
Shut Up Joe Morgan
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 22, 2010 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions
It has everything to do with the spirit of the law
The rule (and I’m making assumptions here, I wasn’t there when they wrote the rule book) was made to keep the manager from making repeated visits to the mound (either to stall, to give a game plan for different hitters, etc. I HIGHLY doubt the rule was created to prevent a manager from, as he’s walking off the mound, turning back to answer one last question from a player.
Therefore, what was violated here was the letter of the law. That’s clear. Mattingly stepped off the mound, he got called on it.
The SPIRIT of the law is the prevent the manager from making frequent, SEPARATE mound visits, not to prevent a manager who took one step off the mound from turning back to answer a question from his player.
I am not debating that what Mattingly did broke the letter of the law. The law is written clearly. If you think what Mattingly did violated the spirit of the law, then I’m going to go ahead and say you don’t understand the concept of “spirit of the law”. No offense.
DEJESUS!!!
Have you ever umpired?
I am guessing no based on your quite remarkable comments above, no offense. Umpires need to enforce the letter of the rules. What we do not need are umpires deciding which rules to enforce and when to enforce them. It is the manager’s job to know the rules and operate within them, and it is the umpire’s job to enforce them evenly and consistently. You cannot consistently enforce rules if the ump is trying to guess what the manager or player meant to do. Your idea requires the umps to try and divine what the player or manager meant to do, and that is not what umps need to be doing as it introduces way too much subjectivity and inconsistency, no offense.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 24, 2010 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Maybe you need to join Zambrano
in anger management classes.
The rule was the rule. Even Mattingly acknowledges it. He simply didn’t realize he had stepped off the mound.
by Josh Timmers on Jul 21, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Sure there is
This is baseball and there is more spirit to rules than there is letter. If the rule was the rule, there would be no in-the-neighborhood call on a double-play and strike zones as fat as Eric Gregg.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Jul 22, 2010 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh shut up. You would applaud Lou if he pulled this off successfully on LaRussa.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 21, 2010 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I won't deny my bias
But you don’t need to be an asshole either. I didn’t say anything against you, so fuck off.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Jul 22, 2010 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions
God forbid anyone disagree here
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Jul 22, 2010 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
SWL disagreed with you
and you called him an asshole and told him to fuck off. So, get off your high horse, you stinking hypocrite.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
No - he told me to shut up
That was uncalled for.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Jul 22, 2010 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Don't make me pull this blog over!
Knock it off.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Obviously Bochy did not know the rule either
because he wanted Broxton removed, which contradicts the rulebook.
Bochy got lucky twice:
1. when Mattingly pulled his bonehead stunt and
2. when the umps forgot the rule and forced the Dodgers to pull Broxton.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 22, 2010 7:57 AM CDT up reply actions
You speak with a forked tongue
As for the rule, it’s kinda stupid
http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2010/5/27/1490028/speeding-up-the-game#38484352
Hey, Worf – Love ya like a brother, but you should maybe STFU on this one.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Actually, I'm in favor of no mound visits whatsoever.
Pitchers are paid to figure it out. Frankly, I don’t know why the manager even has to go out to remove a pitcher. He can signal from the dugout that one guy should leave and another guy should come in.
In most other sports, the players handle the oh-so-difficult transition of “You leave, I stay” all by themselves.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Did you ever play baseball?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 22, 2010 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions
No. I never made a movie either.
But I still somehow manage to have opinions on them. Did you have a point or were you just doing your usual schtick?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
My usual schtick?
You must mean pointing out how little you seem to know about baseball (although I am sure baseball is not the only area where you have demonstrated a lack of knowledge).
My question was based on the number of really dumb ideas you put forth here.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 22, 2010 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
I frequently see you trying to be condesceding to those with different opinions.
That’s just my opinion, perhaps I’m one of few thinking that.
But I have to say with playing baseball from age 5 to 16, mound visits are a necessary thing for a pitcher. It can get easy to be locked in or out of what you need to do as a pitcher, and at every level having a voice of reason can help to focus. I don’t think that eliminating them completely does anything to help the quality of a game.
Shut Up Joe Morgan
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 22, 2010 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Of course mound visits are important,
suggesting that they be eliminated is dumb, no other way to put it.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 23, 2010 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Not acceptable.
Do not do this again.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Jul 23, 2010 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe if you had played the game
your opinions would make more sense, but then again, I never got the impression that you were here to discuss baseball.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 23, 2010 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions
I've got...
nothing against Bochy for using the rules to his advantage but it does seem a little arbitrary. I would think logic would show that that wasn’t really a second visit to the mound but a continuation of the first one.
I also would think that crossing the foul line should be the mark for a visit but since this rule seems to make it out that it is in fact the mound I think Mattingly or Torre should go out for a visit, but never step foot on the mound. Just get up close to it and talk to the pitcher who I’m sure should be able to hear whatever he needs to. Go out again and when informed that it’s their second visit politely point out that it technically isn’t. Then, after they get back to the dugout, maybe just for fun they should go back out to the mound for another visit.
This was my thought.
Does the manager have to step on the mound to make it a visit? If he just goes into the infield is it not a visit? Nit-picky, but makes all the difference in this case.
Does the rulebook explicitly spell this out? Very interesting!
Formerly known as BleedsbluinMi.
"You ain't a beauty, but hey you're alright. And that's alright with me" - The Boss
Oh - this just in. Well, really yesterday
The after-party take on the controversy
From Bruce Bochy –
“Let’s be honest, it’s kind of a knit-picking rule, but it is a rule that you can’t leave that 18-foot circle and go back,” Bochy said.
From Torre and Bochy –
Torre contended that Broxton should have been allowed to pitch to Torres before leaving, something the veteran manager said he wasn’t clear on until Wednesday.
Bochy agreed with Torre that Broxton should have faced Torres.
“It’s unfortunate, I guess, as far as when you’re trying to interpret the rules and what’s the right thing to do,” he said. “They probably would have (had grounds to protest), and it might have caused everybody to review the rules.”
Full Disclosure – I was drunk when I saw on ESPN – being at a HUGE Cubs comeback can do that to me – and hungover when I commented on Wednesday.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
I'm guessing the Dodgers...
…. will be nitpicking every single thing the Giants do against them the rest of the year.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's no lovefest out West to begin with
Torre and Kershaw had already been ejected for a HBP in that game.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Jul 23, 2010 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Not surprising between Dodgers-Giants.
I’d expect them to be posturing and looking for an edge in most games between them like Dusty/TLR matchups.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 23, 2010 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I remember a similar thing happening
to mus in 1984. In LA, there was a foul pop, out of play (iirc), and Jim Frey shouted sometrhing out to the catcher (presumably Jody Davis. Later in the inning, there was a mound visit. Upon completion of the visit, LaSorda complained this was the second conference, which it was.
A new pitcher was summoned, and given enough pitches to warm up. As LaSorda cxomplained, the pitcher continued to warm up until LaSorda went back to the dugout.
The same series, Steve Sax was airmailing throws to first.
Seems sort of a silly rule to me. Maybe they should
change the rule to where a manager/coach has to cross the base line before it is an official trip to the mound. Whether he’s on the dirt or not seems immaterial. Once you cross the base line, it should be an official trip. You should have to cross the baseline again to make it a second trip.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jul 25, 2010 9:08 AM CDT reply actions
It does not matter so much where you place the line of no return
it would not prevent the kind of complaints that tomas21 made. Whatever it is is not all that important, however, you have to enforce it literally, none of this “spirit of the rule” nonsense.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 26, 2010 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Yabbut, if a manager/coach had to cross the baseline before being cosidered for
another visit, it certainly would give him time to think about what he was doing. Clearly, Mattingly was not intending to make a second visit. To call it a second visit just because you come off the dirt seems sort of nit-picky. If the guy crosses the base line, odds are he was done with the visit.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jul 26, 2010 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
do you neally want umps to base their call
on what they think the manager or player meant to do? That is a recipe for disaster.
I’ll say it one more time, it does not matter so much what the boundary line is, but whatever it is, it must be enforced to the letter if it is to have any meaning.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 27, 2010 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Whoa! I'm agreeing with you. The rule should be enforced no matter what it is. I never
said that the umps should base their call on what the manager intended to do. I think it’s kind a silly to say if you take a step off the mound and you are no longer on the dirt, it counts as a visit if you step back on the dirt. If you make the boundary the baseline, then the guy has a second or two to think about what he is doing. Enforce the rule yes, but it should make sense.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jul 27, 2010 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions
There is no real difference between using the dirt area around the rubber
or the foul line. It is not where the line of no return is, it is the manager or coach knowing the rule and the umps enforcing as it is written. None of this spirit of the rule nonsense.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 28, 2010 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't recall saying anything about the spirit of the rule. Those weren't my
words and it’s not how I feel about this situation. The rule should be enforced, period. If the manager/coach violates it, he should be subject to it. Of course the manager should know the rule. It does make a difference where the line of no return is. If it had been the baseline, Mattingly would have never made it that far and there would be no controversy. I just don’t feel it’s necessary to limit the manager to the mound area. Once he crosses the baseline, it should be considered a visit. If he crosses back over into foul territory and then goes back into fair territory, that should be considered, the second visit. It’s only my opinion, if you don’t agree, that’s OK. We can agree to disagree on this one.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jul 28, 2010 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions
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